1193: Will Marital Ambition Lose to Family Tradition? | Feedback Friday

1193: Will Marital Ambition Lose to Family Tradition? | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, a man who would literally walk 500 miles to fall down at your Portuguese door. Gabriel Mizrahi

Gabriel Mizrahi: these doors, man. These doors are out of control in this country.

Jordan Harbinger: Europe knows its doors, man, doors and windows.

Yes. You go to Europe and then you come back to the states and you look at your door and you're like, ah, this is my door. This is it. Yeah. This sad slab of wood with a little hole drilled in it. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You start researching paint colors, you're like, I'm gonna paint my door red or blue or green or some crazy ish.

But you never do it. You never do it.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm gonna be different. Yeah. You never do it. The red doors, the blue windows, that's for the Europeans. Maybe a Cape Cod house. Yeah. If you have one of those, but that's like two shades of dark blue right here. Yeah. Here we just live with these boring ass entryways and And that's right.

Shitload of guns.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Yeah. We get roads you can actually drive on and, uh. Taylor Swift, they get everything else.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And you guys get stylish doors in healthcare

Gabriel Mizrahi: that actually exists. That's

Jordan Harbinger: right. Yeah. [00:01:00] That's how it works. That's the deal. Mm-hmm. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, Russian spies, gold smugglers, economic hitman, undercover agents, astronauts. This week we had Elliot Higgins of Bellingcat. Bellingcat is like a citizen journalism, almost like an intelligence agency, although I'm pretty sure they would hate me labeling them as such.

They do open source investigations. They find all kinds of absolutely insane things like who shot down the plane over Ukraine and they found those assassins that tried to kill the former KGB spy. Just really cool investigative methods that are unrivaled and we dive into a lot of those on the show. We also did a skeptical Sunday, last Sunday on digital nomads, which I'm assuming a few of you are on Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, [00:02:00] and lament our pitiful means of ingress and egress in these United States.

Apparently Gabe hate to even give this airtime, but I see you found your, uh, hot yoga studio over there in Porto. I did, and I

Gabriel Mizrahi: already asked, by the way, I can get you a discounted first time drop-in rate, so you're good.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Dammit. I knew I shouldn't have asked or said anything about this. It was so

Gabriel Mizrahi: funny because I walked into the room and the teacher was like, have you done yoga before?

And I was like. Yeah, all the time. And she's like, hot yoga, and she gave me this concerned look like she was worried for me. And I'm like, yeah. Oh, Maria, you sweet summer child. You think, you think this is hot? We, we crank it to one 15 back in, uh, Yankee doodle dandy land, which is like 46 Celsius for our European listeners.

This room is maybe 90 degrees, which is 32 degrees. Celsius. Right? That's like my backyard without the tent. That's right. Yeah. I've been in kitchens hotter than this. Like I think I'll, I think I'll survive. Thank you though.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. Did you say all that in Portuguese with a snarky accent? Like

Gabriel Mizrahi: mm-hmm. No, I was just like, yes, hot yoga.

It's my favorite. Yeah. Very [00:03:00] good.

Jordan Harbinger: The whole vibe of that reenacted conversation was a little bit like heightened.

I mean, I was about to say you're, you're good at languages, but that would just be an insane leap to make in a couple weeks to be able to deliver that vibe. I

Gabriel Mizrahi: will say my Portuguese was even better by the end of class because she taught the whole class in Portuguese, which I was not expecting, so that was actually pretty awesome.

It was a really good way to learn, you know, the words for different parts of the body, like. Lift your right leg. Step your Oh yeah. Left leg through in stuff like that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Lower your left shoulder, all that. And it's so repetitive, right? I would imagine. Yes, exactly. That you're gonna, that's super handy.

Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also learned, take off that dumb hat, you, American, you know, all the useful phrases that you get in your, they did not, they did not say that to you, did they? No. Everyone's been super nice about the hat and also in general.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I was gonna say that's not very, it's not very namaste of them. No, no. To make fun of your k bonito hat.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It is funny to do class in another language though, because you're actually getting two workouts in at once, which is a whole new category of experience. I have [00:04:00] not had.

Jordan Harbinger: That's true. I remember when I was living in Mexico, Serbia, other places I'd go, uh, Ukraine. Yeah. I'd go home at the end of the day and my mind would just be fizzing and exhausted.

You're, you're super tired. You just have to lay on the couch face first, but you're also wired because there's so much new information and it's, you're getting that information from like riding the bus and listening to them say. This is the last stop. You're like, oh, that's how you say that. Pull the button.

And if you want the bus to stop, or Totally just reading the signs everywhere and you're like, oh, that must be an open, yes. Open door. Yeah, exactly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, look, living in Porto is not as intense as living in, you know, India or Israel or Ukraine or anything. But living in another country, whatever country requires a lot of attention, energy.

You gotta track the language. You have to learn the geography. You gotta. Find your people. You're doing it all in a new language. New psychology. It's, it's a lot. It's cool. It's a lot. Well,

Jordan Harbinger: we'll see about hot yoga Ain't coming to Portugal to lose half my body weight and water. I'm there to kick it by the river and drink my body weight in port and see some sick doors, bro.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's what I'm there [00:05:00] for. We're at that part of that stage of our lives. That's right. Taiwan on and look at some means of ingress, shall we?

Jordan Harbinger: If you don't have any windows that don't open with that weird crank handle where you can open it, either a slanty way or all the way, I'm out. You know what I mean?

Oh, my brother

Gabriel Mizrahi: and I

Jordan Harbinger: have too.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Good. Please enjoy.

Jordan Harbinger: You know, it's funny. I love those so much. And, and Jen installed those in our house not knowing that those are just standard European windows. Mm-hmm. And when we got them, she's like, let me show you how these work. And I was like, eh, have years of experience with these.

This is one thing I'm qualified to do.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You're over in the corner. Stretching. Stretching in European. Yeah. I

Jordan Harbinger: was in the corner stretch. Yeah. Doing the old man, like those, you know how old Chinese guys stand in the park and just slap their chest and shoulders and back? Yes. I was doing that to open the window.

All right, Gabe, what is the first thing outta the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a Turkish woman in my mid thirties living in Germany. I grew up in a conservative working class Muslim household, and followed those values for most of my life. But with time travel and life experience, my worldview began to shift.

While I still [00:06:00] have a personal spiritual connection to Islam, I no longer feel aligned with the gender-based restrictions often placed on women in my culture. My family, including my parents and siblings, have always taken an active role in trying to find me a suitable Muslim partner. Despite their efforts, I've never connected with anyone they introduced me to.

More recently, I've been dating outside of the religion and even outside of our cultural background, and I've found a serious partner, an atheist from Canada who respects me deeply and with whom I feel truly seen.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy. Mom and dad are gonna love that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's the end of the letter. It's just a piece of good news, and they end Just wanted us to know they lived happily ever after.

We're now considering the next steps in our relationship, possibly marriage and starting a family, but I'm scared my family will likely react with pressure, guilt, and even manipulation in many similar families. If converting the partner doesn't work, the next step is often trying to sabotage the relationship.

Geez, I wanna maintain a relationship with my family, but I [00:07:00] also want to protect the peace and values of my own home. How can I set firm but compassionate boundaries with my family, especially when the pressure becomes emotional or invasive. If we have children, how do I allow them to appreciate the beauty of their heritage and Islam without allowing dogma or exclusivity to dominate their worldview?

How do I protect my relationship from being quietly undermined by a well-meaning, but persistent family? And how do I resolve my guilt for choosing a path so far from what my family dreamed for me signed look to withdraw from my mom paws stringent laws without causing a whole hoopla in shaah,

Jordan Harbinger: huh? Yeah.

Well, this is a tough one. It's a conflict. So many people find themselves in at some point navigating the tension between the values and expectations they were raised with and the values and needs that they hold for themselves, and it's pretty intense, I would imagine, especially when it comes to religion and family and culture.

I actually do not envy you at all for having to thread this needle. Look, the good news is you found a [00:08:00] great guy. That's awesome. He sounds like a gem. It sounds like you guys have a loving and meaningful relationship. There's a real future here, obviously I'd wanna make sure before breaking this big news to your family, but it sounds like he's the one.

So yeah, you have to be asking these questions. So as I think you know, there's no easy solution to this problem. If you know you wanna move forward with this guy, you're gonna have to make a decision and you're gonna have to accept that. It'll probably result in some turbulence. You're asking about how to set boundaries, so that tells me that you're at least willing to bear that turbulence, which I think is great.

And what those boundaries look like in action, I think is saying something along the lines of, look, mom and dad, I know this isn't the partner you would've chosen for me. I get it. I would've liked to settle down with a Muslim man too. I didn't find one. That's just how it went for me. But Roger is the man I wanna be with, you know, his name is Roger.

We respect each other. We love each other. We know there's a solid future here. And as an adult who wants to have a marriage and build a family, which I know you want from me [00:09:00] too, I am choosing him now. I understand you might have some feelings about that. I totally get it. I'm sure if I were in your shoes I would have them too.

But this is my choice. This is not a negotiation. This is not the opening salvo of a discussion, and I hope we can work through this period so you can really get to know him and be happy for us. And if they do what you say, if they pressure you emotionally, if they get invasive, whatever that looks like, they're trying, they're like, oh, we're gonna sabotage this.

I don't even know what that looks like. I'm sure there's all kinds of ideas they can come up with. Then you can say. Guys, I appreciate your opinion. I understand how you feel, but we talked about this. I know this is really hard, but this is my choice and I'm asking you to deal with this in your own way.

And if they turn up the heat even more, whatever that might look like, then you can consider things like ending conversations at a certain point, or not talking about this topic at all, just refusing to engage with it or even taking some space. But I wouldn't jump to those tactics immediately. You don't have to ghost your whole family because they [00:10:00] asked you to keep dating Muslim guys or something.

The ideal scenario is that all of you guys hang in this for a minute and keep the lines of communication somewhat open, which I think in a lot of ways is more challenging than drawing a hard line. It's real, you know, short term, it's easier if you just stop talking to the people who are giving you grief, right?

But I don't think that's the way to handle this. In that way, you all ease into this new reality and work through the feelings that come up. On their part may. Maybe there's disappointment and frustration and judgment and fear. And on your part there's frustration and sadness and probably also fear.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

And also maybe some positive new feelings too. Mm-hmm. I mean, a sense of conviction, power, vulnerability. There's a lot in this move. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: This might not actually be all bad. This might be kind of like the first time in her life where she's like, Hey, by the way, I'm not going to live by the rules that you wanted me to have in Turkey,

Gabriel Mizrahi: or whatever.

Yeah. I mean, if she decides to do this, it will be a whole new stage of her relationship with her parents. Look, you want to maintain a connection with your heritage with Islam. You still wanna be close with your family, but [00:11:00] the nature of that relationship or the terms of that relationship would definitely evolve.

And what you're willing to do to satisfy your family does seem to be changing. Basically you are not, um, subordinating yourself and your happiness to them. And I imagine that in a big way that would be very enlivening terrifying for sure. Stressful. Yes. But ultimately enlivening, if this is really what you wanna do, if this is really your person,

Jordan Harbinger: and by the way, that might also be a good thing to work into that script.

I just pitched that you're not turning your back on your family. You're not turning your back on your religion. You wanna raise any children you have with an appreciation of these things.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point.

Jordan Harbinger: I imagine that that would be important for your parents to hear kind of right now, and not just as lip service.

It sounds like you mean it. I wouldn't go into the whole, I wanna enjoy Islam without the dogma and misogyny and exclusivity stuff. That's all fair. But I don't think that they need to know every nuance of your religious position and all the critiques you have of the way your parents raised you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

What they need to know is that they're not losing her. Mm-hmm. And that she's not ditching their entire culture.

Jordan Harbinger: As for making sure your family's [00:12:00] opinion doesn't infect your relationship, I would just stay very close to your partner and talk about all of this before and after you have this conversation.

I would get clear with each other about what your true goal is here, which it sounds like is to stay close and connected and if these chats with your family get difficult, prepare for that. Make room for it, talk about it together, be there for each other. Where this could get tricky is where your parents try to drive a wedge between you guys by playing on things like family and legacy and what will so and so think, and then you go back to your partner and you're just like, I don't know if I can do this.

And I, I'm a little nervous, Gabriel, when she said then, then the next step is they sabotage the relationship. Mm-hmm. It's like, well how do they do that? Because that's so invasive. That would have to be just by definition so invasive. What would that even look like? That sort of makes me nervous

Gabriel Mizrahi: if she knows that her parents' opinions and feelings have the potential to undermine her confidence.

And she actually sounds pretty confident in this relationship, so they might be pretty powerful. She might need to do some work around that, you know, to unpack how this relationship with her parents operates to understand [00:13:00] how they get in, so to speak, and in influence her feelings about important things like her relationship.

Ideally, what I would love to see her do is to start to hand certain things back to her parents and say, okay, these are for you to deal with. You know, these are for you to hold.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And then I get to hold onto the things that are mine, like these are for me to take good care of, which includes her conviction and her values and her love for her partner if she doesn't protect those who will.

Jordan Harbinger: We're talking about this like a boundaries conversation, and it is, but really it's kind of an individuation conversation.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And part of individuation is this healthy separation, which can feel for some people, especially people from certain backgrounds, like a kind of rejection or banishment or loss of sorts.

But it doesn't need to be aggressive. It doesn't need to be hurtful. It can still be loving even while they separate.

Jordan Harbinger: And you can mean, my goal is not to hurt you. I'm not going anywhere. I still love you, but I have a different relationship with these parts of our culture. And I'm not gonna take on your opinions as my own.

I need to [00:14:00] listen to my own voice. I hope you can understand and thank you. Look, if you do have kids, you'll share your religion with them in a way that feels aligned with your values. And I'm sure your parents will too. Mm-hmm. But that could look a lot of different ways, whether you take them to the mosque, how often you take them, which mosque you go to, what other influences you share with them, other philosophies and cultures and ways of life, how you feed that worldview you were talking about, which really grows through conversation with other people and travel and reading and cultivating an open mind.

How you talk to your kids about their religion as they get older, what you like, what you struggle with, how they feel about it. One thing I would say is be careful. Make sure you talk to your partner about the role you want for religion in your kids' life. Because I don't know Gabe, I was dating this really Christian girl when I was in college for a long time and we kind of dealt with the differences a little bit on our own and it was fine.

And sometimes she made me go to church and I was like, God, this is so silly. 'cause she was like super born again. It was like a hardcore, we don't believe in evolution kind of Christianity. And I, it was fine. Like I get along. I loved her family, it was fine. The message at church was sometimes [00:15:00] interesting, even though I didn't love all of the stuff that, some of the sort of zealots that would get in my face and like basically yell at me about being not Christian.

That was really irritating. But then I was like, yeah, you know, once we have kids, we dah, dah, dah. And she's like, no, once we have kids, they're gonna learn all of this stuff and you're gonna be left out. And I was like, oh, you're gonna use this as like a weapon against me to like try and convert me because my kids are gonna also, and that was like, uh, I don't wanna do that.

I can't tell my kids that gay people are going to hell. I'm just not gonna do that. And she's like, well, I have to do that. And I'm like, then I have to tell them the opposite because I'm not gonna just sit there while you say bigoted things to kids that are mine. And that was the beginning of the end.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So there are sets of values and beliefs that are just incompatible.

Yeah. Or if you don't really deal with them, they will become huge sources of tension in the family when you have children. Yes. So I assume that they've talked about that. I mean, he's an atheist. She was raised Muslim, but she's not totally sold on everything that she's inherited from her religion. So maybe they're, they are on the same [00:16:00] page and they do know how they wanna raise their kids.

But you're right. I mean, if he's an atheist, would he be okay with them going to mosque Sometimes? I don't know. That's something they should definitely figure out before she goes to her parents.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Before you open this massive can of work. 'cause if the parents pick up on, oh, you think you wanna take your kids to the mosque?

We talked to Roger and he said there's no way that we're doing that. And that's just how it is. They're gonna take that little crack and they're gonna pour water into it and freeze it so that it becomes a massive rift and destroys your relationship. That's how they're gonna try and sabotage your relationship.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also think what you said a moment ago about how she responds to her kids and their feelings about religion. I think that's really important because how you respond to their questions, their crises as they grow up, for example. If they date people from other backgrounds or if they wrestle with certain aspects of Islam or, you know, even for atheism for that matter.

That's really important.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. 'cause atheism can sometimes be just as dogmatic as religion. Mm-hmm. I know it's like anti-God and all that, but some hardcore atheists, they have a lot of the same pitfalls as zealots. A lot of them are zealots. Right. It's

Gabriel Mizrahi: kind of a trope. So if their [00:17:00] potential future child ever goes, I don't know if I agree with what the Imam said today, or, uh, I know dad's not into it, but I, I kind of want to go to mosque with you.

You know, how you respond to that is gonna model for them the very values that you say you are hoping to pass along. I think that's how you teach them,

Jordan Harbinger: right? Her openness, her curiosity, how she makes room for all this. How she gently shares her own opinions. All of that is the anti-D dogma. That is the anti exclusivity

Gabriel Mizrahi: Jordan, she hasn't told us if, um, the parents have met her boyfriend yet.

And I'm guessing she would've told us if that were the case because there would already be a relationship there and this wouldn't be as big of a deal. But I do have some questions about what role her boyfriend plays in all this. You know, when he meets the parents, can he develop that relationship with them?

Can he reassure them that he respects their background even if he doesn't share their religious beliefs? You know, sometimes when you share some fundamental general values like. Being respectful, being kind, being solid, being responsible, whatever it is, that goes a very long way or not, in some families that isn't enough, but it is [00:18:00] worth a shot and I think that is a huge variable in all this, you know, how does he fit into this family religion aside?

Jordan Harbinger: You know, I'd love to say like parents should always understand this and want their kids to be happy, but it's not as simple as that. And they, they've seen this movie before, right? Old, older people are not only set in their ways for no reason. They've seen this movie before where like. Your cousin's friend's, uncle's daughter from friend at work, they married a guy who was a Canadian and he was an atheist and the whole thing went down in flames and it was because he wasn't Muslim.

And it's like, well, is that why? Right? Well, they couldn't control him 'cause he wasn't Muslim. They couldn't talk to his parents because they weren't gonna force, they were ways on him and they weren't Muslim. But like, you hear about this a lot, so they're coming at this, it, I, I think it's kind of important to remember that they're coming at, they love you, they want the best for you, right?

They don't want to see you hurting, they don't wanna see your kids hurting. So they're, they're coming at this with, this is the best way to have a stable family. It's just that that doesn't necessarily work when you move from Turkey to Canada. This is always a tough one [00:19:00] because as a parent I kind of get it.

Although as a person who is not religious, I also get it. I get that too. I wouldn't want my parents to be like, you have to marry this kind of person. That would've just been ridiculous to me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, what you're bringing up also is what is the priority for these parents? Are they just trying to protect their culture, which I can understand, or for them, is this more personal?

You know, can they not make room for an otherwise great person if they're not from their background? Or is there some room there to appreciate the person and want their daughter to be happy with somebody who's not like what they imagined?

Jordan Harbinger: It always gives me a little bit of a chuckle when people are like, yeah, I know I'm picked up and moved my family from Asia, the Middle East, wherever, and now we live in Germany, and I'm so upset that my kids have a bit of German thinking and German culture, and they want German values.

It's like you literally moved out of your country because it didn't have opportunity for you. So now your children have opportunity and they don't want the restrictions of the place that you escaped from. Why are you surprised by this? [00:20:00] I want my kids to have all of the benefits, but I don't want those benefits to affect me negatively in any way.

It's like, hmm, that might be a you problem, bro. I don't know. That's just kind of ridiculous to me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's also not as simple as that because I understand that people wanna preserve their culture wherever they go.

Jordan Harbinger: Sure.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But in this particular story, what you just said is actually very interesting because the parts of Islam that are hard for her are the parts about control and the power of women.

Yes. And here she is, a woman who wants to make her own choices, who is struggling to wrap her head around certain aspects of their tradition. And like that might be showing up also in this question about what her life looks like and whom she settles down with. So in a big way, those are closely related in this case.

And I do find that very interesting. But then again, I would hope that the parents could engage in a dialogue about that and try to understand who this guy is. Before they decide whether they're gonna write 'em off.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So look, I hope that gives you some ways forward here, my friend. I'm sorry that you feel this guilt.

I totally understand why it's there, and it might always be there to some degree. I think the guilt [00:21:00] is a function of a few things. Your love for your parents, your desire not to hurt them, the obligation you feel to your heritage, all of which are beautiful to some degree, and all of which deserve to be unpacked, but you framed it really well.

This really does come down to making your family happy versus honoring your own peace and your own values. I think you can tell where we stand. We're big believers in individuation and following your own authentic path. But part of the reason I'm encouraging you is that you're coming at this from a pretty balanced perspective.

You're not trying to hurt anyone. You're not saying, how do I cut my family off and start an atheist bookshop next to a mosque? You sound like somebody who is kind and respectful and integrative, and I'm, I'm a big fan of those qualities, so I feel more comfortable saying, if this is your guy, yeah, marry your atheist partner.

Have kids who have a foot in both worlds. Have a bookshelf full of Rumi and Richard Dawkins. I love it. It sucks that these big choices come with big costs, but it's the costs that tell us what's really valuable to us as well. So we're sending you and your dude a big hug and wishing you [00:22:00] all the best.

Gabriel, this reminds me a little bit, Jen. When, uh, before we met, she was taking this, it might've been after we met, whatever, she was taking an accounting class to become a CPA and she crushed the class. She was the best student in the class, and her parents were so proud. Our daughter's gonna become a CPA.

And then she started working for me. And when she told her parents, I'm not gonna do the CPA thing, I'm gonna work for Jordan for a while, because I, I worked at this accounting firm and I didn't really like it. They didn't say, oh, income this or career path that her dad's first thing was, what am I supposed to tell my friends?

That's what he said. And it was kind of like this tell, it wasn't like, oh, how are you gonna support yourself? Or like, what if you need your career related? None of those were like even the top three concerns. It was, but I already told all my friends that Mahjong, you were gonna be an accountant. That was like the main thing.

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And of course they didn't care after a while 'cause it's like, oh, now you run a successful business. This is fantastic. Mm-hmm. It was peak Asian to be like, our daughter is taking the CPA exam and they're like, we know what that is. Yay. Golf clap. Everyone's proud. Yep. Doctor lawyer.

And if [00:23:00] you're Indian, it's doctor, lawyer, engineer. So all my, all my South Asian homies. Right. If you're not a doctor lawyer or an engineer or ideally all three, somehow you have failed. It doesn't matter if you are a Supreme Court justice, you're the loser in the family if you have two brothers and they're both doctors.

So yeah. That's, uh, by the way, that's literally true. My buddy Shiva, who I went to law school with. He told me he was the loser in his family because both of his siblings, a brother and his sister were both, I don't know, surgeons or doctors or something. And he went on and clerked for the Supreme Court and I was like, are you still the loser in your family?

And he was like, Jordan. Yeah, definitely. I was like, you're literally oddly court clerking for the Supreme Court. You're writing history, one

Gabriel Mizrahi: of the most prestigious things you can do in the legal world.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, yes. And he's like, and every time I go home for, you know, whatever holiday it was, he's like, they're like, Hey Liz.

Do you think you can still get into medical school?

No, I don't think I'm qualified for medical school. BRBI gotta take a call from Ruth Bader [00:24:00] Ginsburg. I'll be right back. Uh, speaking of being right back now, we're gonna pray at the shrine of capitalism, Allah who had break. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Dell and a MD. You know that feeling when everything's going according to plan, and then one small stupid mistake blows it all up?

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Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your [00:26:00] support of our advertisers keeps us going to learn more and get links to all the discounts you hear on the show. Check out Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to feedback Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, what's next?

Hey, Jordan and Gabriel. I live in New York. I've been with my company for 12 years, and because of that, I make more than others with the same title. Lately I've felt bored and unmotivated at work. It's decent money and relatively chill, but I'm just not into it anymore. Recently though, I've started to feel like I might be quietly being set up to be let go first.

I don't have much on my plate these days, almost suspiciously little. Then someone from HR pulled me aside out of the blue and said that there's been chatter in the office about why I make more and get a bigger bonus than others In the same role. She asked me how many hours I work a week, which felt like a weirdly loaded question.

I didn't answer, but it rattled me. Then, and this could be a coincidence, but the timing [00:27:00] was eerie. Five minutes later it came over asking to fix my antivirus software and took my laptop also, part of me would actually love to take a few months off, even if it's just down to partial pay to help care for my dad who has Alzheimer's, and to use that time to look for something new.

Is this a smart play or am I just panicking? Signed trying to be mathematical about finagling the sabbatical.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, first of all, I'm sorry this is happening. It sounds stressful. I get that. It's creating uncertainty that's nerve wracking. We wanted to run all this by a real expert in work, people with real jobs, ideally.

So we reached out to Joanna Tate, friend of the show and HR professional for over 20 years, and the first thing Joanna said was, you have part of the picture, but there's a lot you don't know here. She didn't wanna speculate too much, but she said there could be a lot going on behind the scenes at the management level.

There could have been some high level budgeting discussions and each department is responsible for reviewing its budget, which then trickled down to your interactions with hr. Questions could have been asked about [00:28:00] overall internal pay equity and hrs gathering data to help resolve any disparities in salary within the organization or something like that.

These are just a couple scenarios Joan has seen over the years. In other words, it's possible that this isn't specifically about you or a reflection of your work or, or lack thereof, as the case may be. And that said, Joanna also had a lot of questions, and I wanna pass them along because I think they're really good ones.

One of her questions was the fact that you have very few responsibilities. Did that happen before or after you started losing motivation? When you say you've been bored and unmotivated lately, does that mean you haven't been following through on your responsibilities at work? Does it mean that others have had to pick up the slack?

Has that raised any eyebrows? Has that caused any resentment? Have others maybe spoken up to get it figured out? Not trying to give you anxiety fuel, but it's a fair question. And more importantly, are you doing anything to resolve the lack of motivation? Have you asked for additional responsibilities?

Have you gone to your [00:29:00] manager like, Hey, manager, I've enjoyed my job, I have goals to continue my contributions here. What could I do to become a better team member? I've noticed that I've been removed from this project and that project. I've almost finished that other project. What else can I do to be of service here?

Or if you don't really wanna be in the job anymore, do you really care that you could be quietly moved out if that's even where this is heading? So those are a few new angles on your predicament. And even though we might be reading between the lines fairly or unfairly, I would really sit with Joanna's questions and see what comes up.

Now, separate question about your dad. Joanna's take is whether or not you try to take time off to be with him. That should be an independent decision, not a way to get a break from your job, getting a break from work. Yeah, that would be a nice side benefit. But if you need to spend time with your dad, you need to spend time with your dad.

She feels they should be treated as separate decisions. My gray Jordan idea was maybe look into taking FMLA leave the Family and Medical Leave Act. What this is, is it [00:30:00] protects workers for up to 12 consecutive weeks or intermittently for a few reasons. One of those reasons is that they're the main caregiver for an immediate family member with what's called a serious health condition.

That's defined in the ACT now, Joanna did say that the FMLA could provide kind of an insurance policy of sorts for your job. It protects your position within the company. The company would be required to return you to the same job or a job of similar status, pay responsibility when you come back, which could of course be useful if it turns out that you are in fact on the chopping block.

Now the leave would be unpaid. But in some states like New York where you live, they have an additional paid family leave program that you can access. The details should be in your company handbook and on the state website. And I suspect, look, I'm not an HR person obviously, but I have a feeling as an attorney if you did take FMLA, your company would be out of their dang minds to terminate you after you get back from that leave or before you take it within a [00:31:00] few months anyway.

'cause any employment attorney worth their salt could make the case for retaliation. So that might extend your runway even further. You could file, say you're taking it in a month, you get that month. There's no way they're gonna let you go because it'll look like they fired you 'cause you took leave. Then you get your three months of leave, then you come back.

They're not gonna let you go for at least three months or maybe six after that. 'cause it's gonna look like retaliation for taking leave. So you're gonna end up with quite a bit of runway by doing this. And the reason I'm calling this a gray Jordan idea instead of a dark Jordan idea, is that it sounds like you do have a legitimate reason to take leave.

You're not just fabricating some excuse to take time off to save your skin, which by the way would be fraud, and nobody should ever do anything like that,

Gabriel Mizrahi: right? But Joanna was much more interested in this question, which is, do you actually wanna stay? Do you want to hang onto a job that you are not interested in?

In Joanna's experience, when our livelihood is challenged or threatened, we tend to move into self preservation mode, right? And we wanna make sure that we're safe and we're totally justified in the way [00:32:00] we're handling that. So if you applied for a leave of absence, they might give it to you, and then you could take that time to care for your dad and look for another job.

You would also be tied to this company that you are apparently pretty bored with, which also seems to not have much space for you right now, and your company would be required to administer that leave of absence. They would have to keep up with your activities and your efforts to return to work, which is a bit of a burden for them.

So Joanna said that it would be a lot of work on both sides of the fence to maintain your ties to this job if you're just planning to bounce in a few months Anyway. So her advice is to get clear with yourself on a few things. Do you need to take a leave of absence to care for your dad? Do you wanna stay at this job?

And if so, what are you gonna do to get back in the game? Do you want a new job? If so, start looking, but also start getting feedback from your manager while you're still there. Try to get much more awareness of what is happening, why you're in this spot, what these signals mean. In other words, learn from it.

If you poking around leads to a termination for some reason, uh, probably fine because you didn't wanna [00:33:00] stay there anyway, right? And you might be able to ask them to market as a resignation, in which case you might not be eligible for unemployment pay, but it might be more important to you to not be fired.

It's up to you, of course,

Jordan Harbinger: but look, it sounds to me like a change is coming one way or the other, and you can never really go wrong. Having a few irons in the fire and keeping your relationships warm, whether you stay or you take leave, or you quit or you get fired. In a way it kind of doesn't matter because you're still gonna need these pieces in place, right?

So I'd start doing all the six minute networking.com stuff immediately and just make that a consistent practice. More often than not, it's our opportunities that dictate our choices, not the other way around. And good luck. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines that makes our job a whole lot easier.

If your mother-in-law up and left your father-in-law without warning for an abusive possibly fortune hunting maniac. The Sri Lankan mob is sex extorting your friend's family or your new partner is not getting along with your daughter and you're not sure what to do. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately.

Hit us up [00:34:00] friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, our newsletter wee bit wiser. It's a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you delivered to your inbox on most Wednesdays. You guys love these things. We love writing them and y'all love responding to them.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, what's next? Hey guys, about five years ago I received a message in my social media from a guy accusing my husband of hooking up with his ex-girlfriend at my husband's job.

Jordan Harbinger: So just to clarify, Gabe, this is the ex-girlfriend of the guy who reached out to her. Yes. Not the husband's ex-girlfriend, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, I don't think so. Not from the sound of it. Okay. So she goes on. At the time of the accusations, we had only been married for two years. I tried to get evidence, but all I ever got was screenshots of text messages between this woman and her friend.

The messages were basically describing her messing with my husband at work where he's a manager. She sent one of my husband's Facebook photos in those texts saying they were planning on [00:35:00] sleeping together, that he told her he only got married for his religion, stuff like that. But when I confronted the girl over the phone about it, all she said was that it was one time and she just gave him a hand job, but could not give me any more description.

I never found any evidence on my husband's phone of any communication with this girl. She only worked at his job for three months. I have a hard time believing he would put his job and marriage in jeopardy, but I also don't understand why someone would make this up about him. Of all people, the feelings of confusion about this really hurt and put a strain on our marriage.

I've struggled with it constantly in the back of my mind, I'm always wondering if my husband could have betrayed me and why someone would be so conniving as to fabricate such a story about him. Five years later.

Jordan Harbinger: Wait, wait. She's been living with this for five years,

Gabriel Mizrahi: at least she, wow. And possibly it sounds like a bit longer than that.

Jordan Harbinger: That is a long time to not have an answer to something this unsettling. [00:36:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: Five years later, I actually ran into the girl and the guy who originally messaged me with this BS in person. Is it BS though? We don't know, right? We don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know what came over me, but I walked up and confronted them, hoping they would fess up to why they made this up.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Well that's great. That's great. My first thought, go back to the source. See what you can find. I love that you just walked up to them. I'm on the edge of my sea taking a hit off that doe pipe. So what happened?

Gabriel Mizrahi: She stuck to her story saying she did hook up with him one time at work, but changing a couple details.

Like this time she said he told her we were separated and she knew where we lived at the time and described the whereabouts of the area.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I mean, maybe she knows where her manager lived, but that's a little incriminating, isn't it? She a little bit, I guess. Why would she know where her old boss of three months lived?

That's a little.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, this doesn't sound like changing details. This sounds like adding details. Right. This is new information.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Right. It doesn't automatically mean she's telling the truth, but she's not going, oh, did I say hand job on the phone? Three year, five years ago. I, [00:37:00] I meant we made out in his car once.

Oh, no, we didn't meet at work. We met at the bar near work or whatever. That would give me more pause because it changes the fundamentals, but she's like, no, no, no. I gave him a hand job, and by the way, I know what your neighborhood looks like and I picked him up from your house, which is this, and has red flowers in the front.

It's like, okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also it's been five years and she's still standing by this story for the most part, so why do that If it isn't true, I don't get it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Look, you can be a bit of a nut job and wanna ruin someone's life at all costs, even if it takes years. Sure. Does this woman maybe have some issues?

Possibly. Does that automatically mean she's lying? I mean it, unfortunately, no, it doesn't.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, if this woman and her boyfriend were both in on making all of this up, which she seems to believe that would require her to text her other friend about our friend, here's husband, and send screenshots of those texts to her boyfriend and have her boyfriend text them to her saying he found them when he has no connection.

Yeah. To either of them. This is a very complicated operation for what seems like. Little to no reward as far as I can tell.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a good point. It is curious and it sounds like he [00:38:00] found the text on her phone and wanted to bust her somehow and and screw everybody in the process.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also just wanna remind you that they're having this whole conversation in front of her ex-boyfriend.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I think our show fans are probably gonna say something like, you missed this obvious thing, but I almost forgot about that part. So our friend here walks up to them at like Cheesecake Factory or whatever. Yeah. And in front of her ex-boyfriend or whatever, maybe they got back together. I'm confused.

She's like. Yeah. I gave your husband a handy at your old house when I was still with this guy. Points to hit. Just dude sitting there.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. As he shoves another sweet corn tamal cake in his mouth. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: The portions here are so big. I'm just gonna keep eating so I don't have to talk about this. This is just such an awkward situation.

Can I get more of the brown bread please? This, uh, I need more bread over here. Table three.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Unless they did a bunch of work to repair after all of this came out and they're in a different place now and she's like, I'm sorry. You have to hear this again, babe. But yeah, I did this thing with this woman's husband the first time we were together.

Sorry.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Still I have questions about these two, but that's a whole other feedback. Friday letter. Let's [00:39:00] refocus here. I mean, unless it's some sort of very weird kink and they're pissed off at this guy. I don't get it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's get back on track. I think we're, we're experiencing a little dos drift here is what I think is happening.

Yes,

Jordan Harbinger: I know. We're, we're trying to play air hockey and I'm over here playing dos ball. Exactly. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This conversation just reopened the wounds. I never had any suspicions about him being unfaithful prior to this incident or after. But it's basically his word against hers. My husband has been very supportive and understanding, putting himself in my shoes and dealing with me, bringing it up and asking questions to figure out why this happened.

I also put myself in his shoes and couldn't imagine the hurt I would feel if my husband believed a stranger over me. Ugh,

Jordan Harbinger: boy. Well, despite everything we just said, that is really hard. 'cause if it turns out your husband isn't cheating, which still is theoretically possible, I suppose. Yeah, it sucks. As you can see, I'm not convinced, but that doesn't mean it's off the table.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But then, I'm sorry, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but if you were this guy, her husband, right? Right. And you did not cheat on your wife and you were accused of that, [00:40:00] would you be doing a few things differently? Like when you contact this woman and be like, Hey, can you knock it off with these weird stories?

They're not true. You're compromising my marriage. I don't get it. It's weird. Go away. Or wouldn't she be like, you know, honey, I did not do these things, but if it's this hard to trust me, maybe we have some other work to do. I'm just, I'm not getting a good read on what her husband, where he is right now and how he's responding to this.

Jordan Harbinger: He might have done that. We don't even know. We, he might not have told her, Hey, I messaged that girl and told her to stop making things up. 'cause that sounds even more incriminating. He said he was religious or they hinted that, so maybe they're not interested in. Traditional therapy as a result of this, or he thought it's handled and she's like, I've been holding onto this for five years, and the guy thinks it's all over.

Well, we're gonna get into that in a second. I mean, look, I, I, I'm confused as well. Unless she's not telling us much about what else he's doing. Right, right. He's being supportive. He's being understanding. He's putting himself in my shoes, dealing with all my questions. Great. That's the least he could do.

But you're right. If this truly didn't happen, I feel like you'd be doing more or behaving differently somehow. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. I can't tell if that's fair or [00:41:00] unfair because if he didn't do anything, yeah, he might feel there's nothing for him to do, you know? So it's a tricky place to be.

Jordan Harbinger: That's the binder in It sucks.

It's also possible. I'm speculating. I know, but it's possible. That something happened or he put himself in a dodgy situation, but it's not quite what this woman is saying, but it's not quite nothing either.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I see. Like they were spending time alone or flirting or something like that. It was heading in that direction, but it didn't actually happen.

So yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: and he knows that he messed up, but he didn't necessarily hook up with her. That might explain why he's being kind of vague and coy about all this because he can't fully defend himself, but he doesn't wanna own it either.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is my longest relationship and my first marriage, but I was cheated on in a past relationship, so I wonder if that's a trigger for me as well.

Huh? I know I have my own issues. Things often affect me mentally due to my childhood, which I'm working through in therapy. My husband has also agreed to try some marriage counseling to help us through this.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, well, there you go. I hope it's helpful. Yeah. I guess I spoke too soon earlier about the therapy.

I mean, that's the logical next step.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Am I crazy for believing in something I have no solid evidence of? How do I learn to [00:42:00] let this go? And stop wondering if and why this really happened. Signed a ruminating spouse trying to douse the paranoia in our house. When her boyfriend might or might not have acted like a Lao

Jordan Harbinger: look, obviously, I'm very sorry all this happened or didn't happen, but is alleged to have happened.

Your husband and this woman or boyfriend or ex-boyfriend or whatever side cook whatever had put you in a difficult position.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The guy with the Cheesecake Factory gift certificates. That guy, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the gift card, yeah. Gift cards. You don't have all the information you need to either act on this or put it to bed.

My heart goes out to you for that. I

Gabriel Mizrahi: mean, this is the kind of stuff that happens when you dine out at the cheese cock factory. You know

Jordan Harbinger: the cheese, the the cheese cut factory.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You are never gonna go to that restaurant

Jordan Harbinger: again the same way. No. Oh man. So, no, I, I don't think you're crazy for believing in something you have no solid evidence of.

You have some evidence that something might have happened and you're certainly not crazy for wondering, given how this all came out. Honestly, I think you'd be a [00:43:00] little crazy not to. In fact, at a certain point in your letter, I did feel you were maybe burying your head in the sand a little bit when you said that you confronted this guy and girl about what you called this BS, and you were kind of hoping they would just fess up to why all this was made up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, even her question, how do I learn to let this go and stop wondering if and why this really happened, that also speaks to this part of her that really does not want this to be true,

Jordan Harbinger: which I completely understand. That must be so painful. I get it. Yeah. But given these facts, I'm not sure she can do that just yet.

I'm just not hearing enough evidence that her husband didn't do something inappropriate. I wanna make room for him here though. I wanna make room for the possibility that he might be innocent. It doesn't sound good. Or rather, the facts as they stand now are not making it easy to believe him. Mm-hmm. So this isn't the right question.

The right question is, how do I gather the information I need to decide how to truly feel about this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. So what are you thinking? Like hire a pi. Go through his whole texting history again. Drop it in a chat. GBT, I mean, see what it says.

Jordan Harbinger: These are options, but if [00:44:00] he deleted their messages, assuming there were messages at all, and if he's not having an affair now, that's not gonna lead anywhere.

I'm trying to think what else she could do. I mean, she could try to reach back out to this woman, talk to her with a more open mind, not with the goal of trying to disprove the claims, but with the goal of really trying to understand her story and pressure testing her facts. Not in five minutes at the Cheese Cook factory, where famously the best cheating revelations come out, but in a longer conversation with a totally different frame of mind.

What else, Gabe?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, I don't know. I'm also curious to know what their relationship is like right now, what feeling she's getting from him these days, because that's important information too. I have to imagine that his behavior is speaking volumes, like is he being cagey? Is he being vague? Are they emotionally intimate these days?

Does she feel safe with him? Does she feel like he's hiding something? I'm just, again, I'm not getting a great read on that from her letter, and I don't know if it's because she just didn't include those details or because she doesn't know whether she can trust that data or because she's not paying very close attention to that stuff.

[00:45:00] Maybe because her goal up till now has been to convince herself that this did not happen.

Jordan Harbinger: As you know, I always caveat this kind of thing because intuition is so far from a perfect science. Sure. What she needs is hard evidence, pardon the pun, but I think when you're married, you just know when something's off.

You know when your spouse is hiding something and we ignore that voice at our own peril.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's something that could become clearer in couples therapy. I do think that space is gonna be so important for them because this cheating accusation is bringing up so many other things about their relationship.

Right? Like what led to this alleged encounter, how they've dealt with it or not dealt with it, how they're communicating. I mean, there's just so much around this.

Jordan Harbinger: Her history, that other relationship where she was cheated on. Yes. How things as, as she put it, affect her mentally. Mm-hmm. I'm sure all of that is playing a big role in this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: For sure. Although it's interesting, you'd think if she was cheated on before, she would be even less willing to let this go.

Jordan Harbinger: I had the same thought. She said this is a trigger for her. Like she might be assuming the worst because this happened before, and by the way, I can't imagine learning that your spouse probably cheated on you.

Would not be a trigger for anyone just to [00:46:00] put you at ease a little bit. You're not, it's not unreasonable that that's triggering you, but I share Gabe's question, if it's a unique trigger for you, given what happened, why work with the goal of putting it out of your mind?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Does she want to be at peace in the short term, which might not even be possible?

Or does she want the truth?

Jordan Harbinger: I know what I'd want, but that'll require her to bear some difficult feelings for a while longer. But I also think that with this kind of thing, I don't know. At some point she's gonna know whether she can stay in this marriage and be happy. I hope it's because she gets solid proof that this either happened or did not happen.

But if she doesn't, then my hunch is that it's gonna be something else. Maybe couples therapy will help her see how this situation got created in the first place. They'll do some great work to repair and find a new way together, and that'll allow her to feel comfortable staying, or maybe couples therapy will help her understand herself and her husband better, and that'll give her the information she needs about whether the marriage is still right.

Maybe she'll see that whether this happened or didn't happen, the way they're communicating and responding to all this isn't working for her, she'll decide she can't stay. Maybe something like this will happen again. I sincerely hope it [00:47:00] doesn't, but then there would be a pattern and that would give her some more confidence that there's something wrong here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a good point. There are many types of information here that would inform her conclusion, not just the slam dunk proof that he did in fact get a hand Shandy in the pantry.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. Her job is to start paying attention to those signals which she might have been turning a blind eye to in her unwillingness to feel the distress of contemplating a timeline where said hand Shandy did in fact take place in the pantry.

Which I'm definitely gonna be saying in my head later 'cause it sounds like an Eminem lyric or something. Feeling dandy. 'cause I got a hand Shandy in the pantry where we keep the candy. 'cause I was feeling Randy,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but it was uncomfortable 'cause I was standing.

Jordan Harbinger: It was only first base. I never had to use the plan B

Gabriel Mizrahi: bars, sun.

Wow. I didn't see that one going

Jordan Harbinger: swing. Anyway, so sorry you're in this friend. It sucks. My heart does go out to you. You're doing the right thing by going to therapy. If you guys work with somebody solid and you both throw yourselves equally into this process, I do think it's gonna give [00:48:00] you a lot more data.

It's gonna help equip you to know how to navigate this, and that's compatible with doing some more detective work as well. But the most important data, I think, is the quality of your relationship. The feeling you get when you're together, how you guys are talking and repairing. Ultimately, that's what's gonna determine the quality and direction of your marriage, sending you a big hug and good luck.

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Jordan Harbinger: If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors.

All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable over at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. You can always email us, we're happy to surface codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to feedback Friday and now for the recommendation of the week.

I am addicted to lit filler.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So as you guys [00:52:00] know, I'm moving around a lot these days and I'm having to develop a few practices to stay grounded and integrate very quickly into the cities I visit. And one of those practices for me, as you guys can guess, is doing yoga every day. And another one is walking around my neighborhood and renting a bicycle or an A TV or getting a metro card or whatever as quickly as possible.

So I have a way to get around, but my new favorite thing to do is to do a group fitness class as soon as possible, ideally day one. So usually that ends up being yoga, but it could also be like a CrossFit type thing or a Pilates class or a bar class. Jordan's favorite, doesn't matter as long as it's at a studio with other people.

It is amazing how quickly you can make friends in new places. Especially I'm finding in Europe the classes are smaller. People talk to one another after class a lot more. There are lots of international people, so there's some instant community there, but. Even when I don't meet anyone, I still love going to these things 'cause it just instantly makes me feel like I'm part of the city.

So that's my recommendation of the week, just doing a group fitness class in any new city you visit, and by the way, this [00:53:00] doesn't just have to be when you go somewhere far away. If you're going to another city in your state, or you're going on a work trip for a few days, or you wanna shake things up in your hometown, this is still a great move.

Highly recommend.

Jordan Harbinger: That's nice. When you're a solo traveler, you have to get creative and yeah, it's all on you to meet people. So I know these places can be a huge help. I remember solo traveling when I was younger and I was kinda like, if other people wanna meet me, they gotta say hi and make friends with me.

And of course that didn't happen and I was lonely as hell until I figured out like, oh, I have to walk around and go to cafes and talk to people and make friends with the waitress and tell 'em I'm new and I don't have any friends. You know, like you have to do. Mm-hmm. That kinda thing. And then you start doing it all the time.

And in fact, I still do that sometimes if somebody is cool, I'll just be like, Hey, come to this party that we're having, or like, gimme a call sometime. We'll go out to lunch. It's hard to make friends as an adult man. Yeah, that struggle is real.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also working out when you get to a new place, great hack for beating jet lag.

I know it's the last thing you wanna do when you're exhausted after a 12 hour flight or whatever, you don't wanna work out. But it really does have a way of resetting the circadian rhythm somehow. [00:54:00]

Jordan Harbinger: That's actually a really good point. Exercise is probably one of the best jet lag hacks. Yeah. Aside from sleeping at the right time, caffeine at the right time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a God's fly kit.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Exactly. The Lord's Compression socks. If this were a subtle way of further enticing me to do hot yoga and Porto, um, I don't know, man. I'm coming with Jen and my cousin and JS our editor is meeting us there, so I don't need no sweaty ass friends, eh, we'll see about that.

Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for the show, man. The subreddit has been active lately. I love it. There's feedback Friday roundups. People have opinions on all the questions. There's all kinds of shenanigans in there. There's recommendations in there. Definitely join us if you use Reddit.

Come and join us over on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

Gabriel Mizrahi: All right, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm 33 years old and I've been teaching yoga for over 10 years. I'm also a third year grad student in a three year program studying clinical mental health with the goal of becoming a therapist. About two years ago, one of my former regular students, let's call him, John, was arrested in another state for a violent crime involving [00:55:00] property destruction at a hotel and misdemeanor negligence.

From what I can tell from public records, the crime involved drugs, a knife, lack of sleep, keeping a girl in his hotel room against her will and John experiencing a mental breakdown. There was also a sexual element to the crime. He was witnessed performing consensual sexual acts with the girl during the standoff with the SWAT team.

What? Yeah. Hold what? I don't. Well, let's talk about that, shall we? Yeah. Yeah. The news outlets report that he has bipolar disorder and schizophrenia.

Jordan Harbinger: What a shit show. First of all, this is terrifying. I love that. It was like, by the way, they performed the sex acts, but they were consented. Like Gabe. I know this is not the point, but what were these two doing during the standoff with the

Gabriel Mizrahi: SWAT team?

I don't, who knows? Dude, this is so weird. Dandy Han Shandy. This is

Jordan Harbinger: a Quentin Tarantino movie scene or something

Gabriel Mizrahi: while the cops investigate his modus operandi. I don't know. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: I can't tell if that's bars or just [00:56:00] garbage. Um, yeah, it's a

Gabriel Mizrahi: bit of, bit of both. I think.

Jordan Harbinger: More importantly, okay, he's kidnapping this woman at knife point.

How are these consensual sexual acts?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's what I'm confused about. Like he held her in the hotel room against her will, but once the SWAT team got there on the megaphone, she was like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm into it now.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Come out with your hands up. I can't. They're on her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And I definitely asked him to put them there.

Yeah. I don't know what would happen. This

Jordan Harbinger: is all consensual. Ignore the knife. Look, we're having a laugh, but this is legitimately so weird and scary. This guy is totally off his rocker.

Gabriel Mizrahi: In researching more, it appears he has a history of dangerous crimes, including kidnapping while he lived in my state.

Jordan Harbinger: Hmm. So he's definitely a maniac. Okay. There's a pattern completely. Gabe, I just wanna remind you, this guy did yoga. Yoga.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

Jordan Harbinger: This dude is sitting in Lotus Pose doing the two finger meditation thing, and on the weekends he's kidnapping women at knife point. Just think about that. The next time you namaste to somebody over there at hot eight.

Yeah. He

Gabriel Mizrahi: probably did hot yoga too. That's where all the cycles go. That's what [00:57:00] I'm saying. So she goes on back when he was a regular at the yoga studio, prior to this episode, he shared with me that he was in recovery from drugs and alcohol, had done some quote really bad things, unquote, and had served hard time.

It's clear that this episode involved a relapse. He apparently entered into a plea deal and is currently serving time in the state where this episode went down. Then a few months ago, I received an email from someone I didn't recognize, claiming to be John's cousin. The cousin sent me a brief note and a scan of a handwritten letter from John.

He was basically thanking me for my yoga teaching, sharing what he's doing now, and saying that he's using the time in prison to heal and learn about psychology and himself. He left his contact information. The cousin wrote in the email that John is in prison mostly for crimes done to himself, unquote, which sounds like a bit of a stretch.

Jordan Harbinger: I would not agree with that analysis. The crimes sound like he kidnapped someone at knife point and had a standoff with a SWAT team. So that is a stretch and not the kind that you [00:58:00] do in yoga. Mm-hmm. Gabe, what pose is it when you are holding somebody in a motel six and the SWAT team is about to break the door down.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah. What is that? Po uh, you know what? They didn't cover that one at yoga teacher training. Weirdly. I think I have to go to the 300 hour to learn that one.

Jordan Harbinger: I think so.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So she goes on in his letter. John made it sound like he'd be out of prison and returning to my state within the next year. Oh, goody.

I've already had a borderline stalking experience with a different student. Not to say John is a stalker, but I have to be extra cautious. I know what it's like to be a yoga student and admire a yoga teacher and want to get to know them better. I'm also working on how I present myself to hold better boundaries with students moving forward.

If John were to get out of prison, he would know where to find me if he wanted to. I'm now trying to decide whether to respond to the email. I'm pretty sure that I don't want contact with John.

Jordan Harbinger: Pretty sure. Mm-hmm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But as an advocate for mental health, part of me wants to pass along words of encouragement and let him know that I'm cheering him on from afar.

Although I don't wanna be involved myself. No. My [00:59:00] husband, whose voice carries the greatest weight, has made it clear that he doesn't want me to respond to the cousin, even if it were just to confirm that I received the letter and tell them that I'm not able to be in contact with John at this time, but I just can't file this email away because ghosting doesn't sit right with me.

Should I respond to the email? Should I just ignore it? What action do you think will minimize the chance of negative interactions in the future? Signed looking for a transition from out of your fricking tree. Bows.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Nice. Wow. What a nightmare. Look, this guy sounds extremely dangerous, extremely troubled.

I'm very sorry that you've brushed up against a person like this and also this other guy who low-key stalked you. That's very disturbing. On the plus side, huge compliment to your teaching. You must be

Gabriel Mizrahi: one hell of a yoga teacher. You ever teach a ZA class so good? You get letters from prison?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's the quality all yoga teachers should aspire to.

All jokes aside, I did get, uh, dm, I do occasionally still get dms from people on Instagram. I'm like, oh, where are you? What do you do? And they'll be like, I'm in prison. And [01:00:00] I'm like, are you supposed to have a phone in prison? And they're like, Nope. Oh, wow. They're like, okay. So you listen to the podcast in prison.

At the risk of going into solitary confinement, this is a really good podcast. If people are willing to risk months of solitary confinement and God knows what other kind of punishment in their maximum security prison that they're in, that they're listening to this with their phone stashed under their pillow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Who's paying for that data plan though? Or are they just riding the San Quentin wifi?

Jordan Harbinger: I think it's gotta be a gang connection and like the external, you know, whatever there's paying for it. I, I, that's a really good question. Who's Bill is that phone on? But yeah, high praise. So look, I appreciate that you're an advocate for mental health.

I love that you have so much empathy and forgiveness that you wanna encourage somebody who's trying to get better. You're definitely a therapist in the making. You're exactly the kind of person who should be in this field. But when it comes to people like this, people who have a track record of violent crimes, who have a pattern of extreme instability and dangerous behavior over a long period of time, you cannot and should not open the door to them even a little, [01:01:00] because who knows what signal that's gonna send to this guy.

If you responded, you'd probably be one of the few people willing to engage with him, even if it's just once, and he's probably desperate for that support and that connection. And when he gets out. I wouldn't be surprised if he kept writing to you or showed up at your studio or worse. This is not someone you want to encourage in any way at all.

Even if your intentions are good and your boundaries are clear, because his are not, you said he has a history of mental illness. He self-medicate with illegal drugs. He gets violent. I mean, look, I know I might sound callous. I know that might not square with your obvious empathy. But this guy is not safe.

You have nothing to gain here other than assuaging your guilt, which I don't think is warranted because this guy has dug his own hole here

Gabriel Mizrahi: also, he's not your patient. You don't owe this guy unconditional positive regard. You don't owe it to him to be part of his recovery, his rehabilitation. He's just a former yoga student who wrestles with some real demons and has done some very terrible things.

You can have compassion for him from a distance and you can wish him well, but that does [01:02:00] not mean you have to engage with him.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Now, I know that your concern is that if you don't respond, that might also have consequences. I'm guessing. You're worried he is gonna turn against you, and then what? You know.

I get it. That's stressful too, but from where I'm sitting, you have more to gain by not responding and rolling the dice on whether he shows up at the studio than by responding and almost guaranteeing that he wants to continue the relationship. Good

Gabriel Mizrahi: point.

Jordan Harbinger: There's a world where he never gets a response and he just accepts it, or he forgets that he even wrote you, or they assume they have the wrong contact information.

Obviously, I don't know for sure, but that's possible. If there's a world where he does find you, which I sincerely hope he does not, maybe it's just best to prepare for all possibilities, then you can rest assured it's not because you inadvertently encouraged the guy to show up at your door. So that's my take.

Gabe. Am Am I being too cold here or does she need to protect herself? The guy just sounds like a psycho. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She needs to protect herself. Absolutely. Yeah. I love her empathy. But empathy without boundaries, without common sense, that can be reckless and it can leave me vulnerable. Look, if this guy were not violent, if he had had years of sobriety and therapy behind him, if he were [01:03:00] staying on his medication, if he could show her that he's in a different place now with a different frame of mind and he, if he were not in freaking prison for kidnapping a woman, right.

That might be a different story. But even then I, I can't say I would endorse getting too close. I, yeah. Stay away. I'm with Jordan. A hundred percent.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, you know this well, Gabe, schizophrenia is very tricky. Can you have a safe relationship with a schizophrenic person? Maybe if they're medicated and doing okay?

Yeah. Will that relationship ever be totally normal and consistent? I'm not so sure. And he's also bipolar. That's just a really rough combination. Archive. The email, move on. That is my take.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. You know what I do think is interesting though? Is this responsibility you feel to cheer him on, or maybe it's a fear that not responding will also compromise you or you would be failing him somehow.

Just this hyper developed empathy that you have for somebody who does not necessarily need or deserve it, given your relationship. I think all of that is very meaningful, and it would be such a good question to explore in your program as you get ready to do your hours and see patients, it might be interesting to talk to a couple of professors or [01:04:00] supervisors about this and just get their take and see if they have any insights about, not just like practically what to do when you hear from somebody like this, but also what parts of you this guy has touched.

Figuratively speaking. I mean, you know, what obligation do you have to people as a therapist in training and how can you show up for people who are struggling but in an appropriate way and also, you know, when is it okay to not show up for them?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this is a great point because all of these themes will show up in her work in various ways.

Maybe that's what this guy's here to teach her. It's super scary. I'm sorry this is happening, but what a fascinating case study. Also, I would talk to the manager at the yoga studio just as a matter of sort of practical matter here. Tell them what's going on. Give them a photo of the guy. If you have it, give them a heads up.

They should know about him, and if he comes around trying to take your class or asking about you, they should either keep a very close eye on him or just politely turn him away. In the meantime, sending you a very consensual hug and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out our episode with Elliot Higgins, if you haven't done so yet, show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, [01:05:00] discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Our advice and opinions are our own, and yes, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. What if the person love bombing you online is actually grooming you for financial slaughter? Winston Sterol spent 14 years in China and has seen firsthand how the pig butchering scam works and how shockingly deep the

JHS Clip: deception goes.

China has this very interesting kind of situation when it comes to scammers. It's accepted within [01:06:00] China to scam and take advantage of foreigners, but if you scam local Chinese people, that's when you get into trouble. There will be no repercussions at all from the Chinese government if they target foreign nationals because the Chinese government, in fact, in a way, encourages this behavior.

So that's why you're starting to see an uptick. It's just interesting to see how many of the same tactics that are used in these in your face, real tangible scams that happen in the streets of China that I've experienced, have moved over into this kind of cryptocurrency, slaughter, the pig scam, which was now being experienced around the entire world.

The way they pull it off is even more interesting. And like I said, I played along all the way to the point where I was going to send the money, so I figured out how it all works and it looks legitimate. Okay? And they can string you along for the longest time. They steal your money without you knowing that it's stolen.

It's so convincing, and it really does make you think that you're dealing with a legitimate person. It's quite despicable. And at the end of the day, every scent is gone. If they do it right, they're very clever. [01:07:00] They do it very slowly. And they will contact you every day because they're building up a database.

And when they see that there's a response, like you say, you're validating that you're a real contact, the absolute best thing you can do is just block and and not respond. They do not face any repercussions whatsoever from the Chinese government and the police. It's an us versus them type of thing.

Jordan Harbinger: To hear more about how victims are manipulated, why no one is immune, and how to spot the con before you become the next target.

Check out episode 737 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.