Bonus: Thais Gibson | How to Rewire Your Brain for Healthy Relationships

Bonus: Thais Gibson | How to Rewire Your Brain for Healthy Relationships

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks.

From spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers and performers, even the occasional war correspondent neuroscientist, fortune 500, CEO, or special operator. If you're new to the show or you wanna tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology, geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime, and cults, and more.

That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit Jordan harbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today on the show, your love life isn't cursed. You're not attracting the wrong people, you're not too much. You're not emotionally unavailable.

You're just running [00:01:00] software that was installed before you could form a sentence. Today we're talking about attachment theory. Why you chase, why you withdraw, why you panic, text, why you emotionally disappear, and why your nervous system thinks a slow rep reply, a survival threat. We'll break down the four attachment styles, how they form, why they keep hijacking your adult relationships and how neuroscience is yes, actual rewiring your brain.

Neuroscience can move you from anxious or avoidant to secure. We'll get into subconscious programming, conflict patterns, trauma responses, boundaries, emotional regulation, and the six pillar roadmap to stop dating your childhood wounds. So if you've ever said, why do I keep doing this? Why do I push people away?

Why do I cling? Why does intimacy feel like danger? Good, you're in the right place.

Thais Gibson: Brought to you ad free by the guest today and personal development school.com. Here we go with Thais Gibson.

Jordan Harbinger: Thank you for joining me on the show. I really appreciate it. I think it's gonna be a fun one because attachment theory is, I think a lot of people are interested in this, and the danger though is you run into treating it like a horoscope or something where it's like, oh, I can't do this [00:02:00] because I'm anxious, avoidant, or whatever.

You know? And you like becomes this label, what's that called when. It's called like identity foreclosure, where somebody says, uh, you get diagnosed with ADHD when you're 19. Right? And then you're like, I can't focus ever because I have a medical excuse. I'm ADHD. Or people, people do it and they take these personality tests and they're like, oh, I'm an INTJ, which means I'm introverted.

So then they're like, I have a medical excuse to never talk on stage and never socialize. Avoid people at all times. Yes. Yeah, because I took Myers-Briggs one day when I didn't have my coffee, and it told me I was an introvert. And now it's like my whole life is dictated by this sort of horoscope personality test type of diagnosis, air quotes, diagnosis.

So yeah, I, I think it's, the topic is interesting. Go, go ahead. Stop me from talking at some point here

Thais Gibson: please. To, to be honest, uh, it's actually one of the biggest reasons that I'm trying to put this body of work out there is that I think it's one of the tragic things is attachment theory is one of the most widely studied concepts in psychology over decades.

Instead of [00:03:00] us looking at at it through the lens of, okay, here's your subconscious patterns and the conditioning that you've had about what to expect in relationships and how can we change what's maladaptive or not working. Unfortunately, everybody got into this space of doing exactly what you said, especially as attachment theory broke a little bit more into the mainstream.

I'll go, oh, I'm just anxiously attached. That's why I call many, many times over. Oh, I'm just avoidant. That's why I sabotage relationships. And it's like the entire point of knowing your attachment style should be for introspection and understanding, and then the capacity and ability to actually rewire and change what's not working for you.

Because when we identify with things as a label, exactly to your point. It then cause us to make excuses for our own behaviors instead of actually trying to work through what's not working for us.

Jordan Harbinger: That makes sense, right? So it's kind of like you get diagnosed with the ADHD and it's like, I was diagnosed with this, so now I have all these coping strategies and or I don't know, a prescription for amphetamines so I don't have to worry about that anymore.

Versus what a lot of people do, which is say, oh, I'm anxious of avoid, and so therefore I'm never gonna be in a healthy [00:04:00] relationship with another human being again. Or something like that.

Thais Gibson: Exactly. Or even where I start excusing their behaviors because listen, at the end of the day, like people's attachment style or subconscious set of rules that they've learned about how to give and receive love, it's not this formal diagnosis, but it is a set of patterns and they're either working for you or working against you.

And if they're working against you, then we should be going, okay, well look, I have these unhealthy habits and relationships. What are they? Here's what they're very likely to be based on my attachment style. Let me understand where they came from. Let me also understand that I'm not born with them. Let me dig deeper into how to actually rewire them, which is a big part of what I focus on is how to actually recondition maladaptive patterns so that we can become securely attached, even if we didn't grow up in a securely attached household.

And so unless we're doing that work, the other trajectory is basically that people end up in situations where they get into relationships. They say, oh, I'm anxious, so you have to soothe me all the time. You have to always be there for me all the time. And it's like, that's not actually healthy for you.

It's not healthy for your relationship or your partner. And so while I definitely have so much empathy, I was a [00:05:00] disorganized attachment style, I understand what it's like to be insecurely attached. I have a lot of empathy for that. But at the same time, what bothers me is in this mainstream sort of space.

All of a sudden people just identify with that label and that's it, and that's actually hurting themselves at the end of the day unless they're willing to do the work.

Jordan Harbinger: So you sort of stumbled across by accident. I think the definition of attachment styles without me even asking, but I would love to highlight it again.

You mentioned it was something along the lines of how people give and receive love or ask for and receive love. Can you sort of clarify that, put a finer point on that?

Thais Gibson: Yes. So we are all conditioned, so everybody is conditioned by so many things. The vast majority of our early conditioning obviously is in our childhood.

And because our brain is producing mostly alpha and theta brainwaves between the ages of zero to three and then three to eight is that next sort of segment where we tend to absorb the most of our conditioning most deeply. We are always being reconditioned. That's why you hear things like you're the sum of the five people you spend the most time around.

Conditioning is not something you just have in childhood and it stops there. But your conditioning is your [00:06:00] subconscious set of rules that you've learned about love when it comes to your attachment style. So that's really what it is. The subconscious set of rules that you've learned about how to give and receive love, which needs you expect to be met in relationships, what you have in terms of expectations from other people, how you'll tend to express yourself or communicate how you'll soothe and regulate.

It's all of these things that you've learned. From the environment that you grew up in and what behaviors basically worked for you. So you had positive associations to them. They became a big part of your personality and conditioning or the things that didn't work for you, so you rejected and denied and those things did not become a part of your personality and relationships.

Jordan Harbinger: I see. Okay. So this is like, it's somewhere between, I hate to say diagnosis because it's medical, but it's somewhere between like a personality type in terms of authority. It's somewhere between a personality type and a diagnosis. So it's not either of those things. I don't know where I'm trying to put this on a perspective.

Thais Gibson: I would put

Jordan Harbinger: that right

Thais Gibson: there. Yeah, right there. Okay, great. Yeah, and I know it's nice to have things in neat little boxes. It is. You know, it's nice to say it is, but, but it really is between those two things. Okay. I think [00:07:00] that's a great representation is it's not a formal diagnosis, it's a very widely studied body of work and psychology for sure.

But it's a little more intensive than just a personality style or things like that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I think a lot of personality style stuff has been debunked. Right? Didn't I, I've done shows on this and it's been a while, but like the, you take the Myers-Briggs and then you take it again like six months later at a different time of day and a different place after a different thing has happened with a different level of caffeine in you, and it's like, oh, I'm not INTJ anymore.

Suddenly. And then you take it again three weeks later and it's like back to, it's a totally d so it's almost like you're just rolling. It's your current mood, the way that you took the test, the way that you feel like you were that personality type at 9:00 AM last Saturday, but now you're not. Go figure.

But this is more, more stable than that. But also changeable. Is it? Changeable?

Thais Gibson: Yeah. And I think that there's a couple of things here. So number one. Self-reported data is not great data. So, and that's what you're getting when you're taking these personality tests online? The vast majority of the time.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Thais Gibson: Attachment theory. The original body of work that really studied people's [00:08:00] attachment styles came out of Cambridge University with John Bowlby and then later Mary Ainsworth, and they had something called the Strange Situation Experiment. Have you heard of this before?

Jordan Harbinger: Uh, no.

Thais Gibson: It's basically what they did is they took children okay.

Between the ages of zero to two years old, and they would put them in what looked like a doctor's office waiting room, and they would've the parent sit there with the child and they would have the parent then leave the room and leave the child in this doctor's office waiting room temporarily alone and have a stranger walk in.

And they would observe how the child responded, both when the parent left, but most importantly when the parent returned after about a minute or so. And at that period of time, they could observe what a child's attachment style was based on their reaction. So for example, secure children would end up in a situation where they would self-regulate fairly well.

They wouldn't be very distressed when the parent left. And when the parent returned, they would be happy to see the parent. They would sort of make a bid for connection, and then they would return to playing and they would retain their sense of emotional regulation. Then we had an anxious attachment style.

The anxious attachment child [00:09:00] would become very anxious, very distressed when the parent left the room. And when the parent would return, they would clinging to the parent for dear life. They wouldn't let the parent of the fight. They would try to sit on the parent's lap, hold onto them. Then we would have a dismissive avoidant attachment style.

And this attachment individual, when the parent would leave, would be very regulated, a little bit stressed, but for the most part, quite regulated. But when the parent returned and trying to actually make a bid for connection to their child, the child would actually reject the parent. So the child would look.

And the parent would try to, you know, come and connect with the child and speak to the child and the child would ignore. So they were actually trying to minimize their attachment needs to the parent. And last but not least, the disorganized child would express a lot of volatility when the parent left and when the parent returned, they would be very ambivalent.

And what that means is that they would crawl towards the parent and as soon as the parent would mirror that bit for connection back to them, they would then reject it. So it was like they wanted to reach out to the parent. When the parent mirrored that back and tried to reach out back, they would then reject the [00:10:00] parent.

And then when the parent said, okay, you're rejecting me and moved away, they would become very anxious and try to chase after the parent again. And so they were very hot and cold in those relationship dynamics. Now our earliest conditioning comes at that point in time. That is very much a representation.

We can go into the different attachment cells and some of the patterns they have as adults.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah,

Thais Gibson: but to your point, it's not a personality test in terms of the different ways that most people are observing attachment cells. It's far beyond that. And to your point. I've worked with so many people in private practice over the years, and the amount of people that I would work with who would self-report, oh, I'm anxiously atti, I'm secure, I'm this, I'm that.

And then it would turn out to be something else was quite high. So I think it's very much how we're obtaining that information more than anything, because that is fluctuating based on our mood, our state. But in a lot of the more in depth research, we can see people's attachment styles much more clearly.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So there's four attachment styles that are developed during early childhood slash well, yeah, early childhood. So before age 10. And I don't know, there's two, aren't [00:11:00] there different attachment theories? Like there was the or OG one and now is there, are there new ones? I don't know how this all works actually.

Thais Gibson: That's okay. So, so we actually call it the new attachment theory. It's the body of work that we built on, which is specifically here to say we can change our attachment style. So what we focus and what we study is the neuroscience of how we actually change our attachment style. Because the original attachment theory work was like, Hey, here we go.

Here's your attachment style. And they sort of left it at that. Like, oh, here's what anxious attachment style will do as adults. Here's what dismissive avoidance will do as adults. But they didn't actually dive into, well, can we change those things? And so, because I have a background in the neuroscience of change.

I really focus on helping people rewire their attachment style to become securely attached through five major pillars. And that's what we're calling the new attachment theory.

Jordan Harbinger: I am curious how it does show up in adults, because I don't know, I, as somebody who's, I'm married now and whatnot, but like you, you know, everybody is dated and then you have these relationships that ended and you're just like, man, that person was a mess.

Or like, why? Like, for example, I [00:12:00] went, I've lived overseas for a while and I worked in this in Panama and I worked at the embassy, and I remember there was this nice young lady that I met who was like really, really actually kind of, I hate to use this word, but she, the, the proper word really here is like, kind of bitchy.

I mean, she, there was like a deliberate attitude thing and I remember saying, you're not being very nice. I don't really wanna be here anymore. Uh, when we met, uh, with her and her friend and I just ignored her and went somewhere else, and my friend came back over and was like, Hey, she's asking for you. And I was like, that's, no, she isn't.

I just told her she was rude and then left like, she's not asking for me. And he's like, no, no, no. Yes, she is. So I went back over there and I sat with her and she was very nice and I was so confused and I thought, ah, everybody has, you know, their thing. Maybe she was in a bad mood. And then I remember like lots of little occurrences like this.

She would do that all the time. She would call me every day and say, I don't call men. Men call me. Do you understand? And I'd be like, yeah. And then I wouldn't call her for like a day and she'd call me back and I was like, what is wrong with the, I just don't understand Latin women or something. That's kind of what [00:13:00] I had chalked it up to.

And then I went to Costa Rica to go surfing and she came over by my apartment every single day and my roommates were like, dude, you have to take care of this. She, she insisted on coming in. She didn't believe you were gone. And I was just like, when I left that relationship, I was like. This poor woman has been through some ish, but now when I look at attachment styles, I'm like, ah, okay, what happened?

What ages was it? Uh, seven, three to eight or something like that? What happened to you during that time where this is how you behave in a relationship? Because this is the most anxious kind of attachment that I've ever heard of in my life, and it's so unhealthy from, from those. It just felt terrible. I felt terrible for her.

There's no way to live.

Thais Gibson: Yeah, and I, I actually love that story. I actually don't think she's anxiously attached at all either, which we'll get to.

Jordan Harbinger: I don't know. Something was wrong there. You tell me.

Thais Gibson: I'll tell you. Okay, so four attachment style, we'll review them from the top and then I'll tell you why. I think she was the one that I think she is.

So,

Jordan Harbinger: okay.

Thais Gibson: First attachment style is a secure attachment style represents somewhere between 50 to 60% of the [00:14:00] population with Okay. She

Jordan Harbinger: wasn't that one.

Thais Gibson: She wasn't that one.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, got it.

Thais Gibson: And what's interesting is the securely attached person, they report being the most fulfilled in their relationships, but they also have the longest lasting relationships.

So they just do relationships better. They get very adaptive relationship patterns and themes in their early childhood. Securely attached kids grow up with the overarching theme during their childhood being that they get approach oriented behaviors from their parents. And what that actually means in nons psychological terms is just that their parents are very attuned and present.

And when a child expresses distress, the parent notices and actually approaches them to try to soothe them. That sounds like a small thing, but it has a huge impact and here's why. Securely attached kids then grow up thinking, okay, if I feel distressed, it's safe to express my emotions. It's okay to be vulnerable.

I trust that people will be there for me. And when I actually do express my emotions, people are there for me. So I trust that I can rely on people. I trust that I'm worthy of love on my good and hard days and my good and bad moments, [00:15:00] and they see a lot of healthy communication growing up. So they grow up thinking, okay, my boundaries are, are healthy to have, my needs are safe to express, my emotions are safe, to be vulnerable around.

They have all of these really healthy coping mechanisms that they then bring into their own relationships and securely attached. People often end up in relationships with other securely attached people. We can talk about why that is at the end. And really what this means is that they're equipped in very healthy ways to do relationships very successfully.

The rest of these attachment styles fall into what we call the, the insecure category. Okay. And I'm actually gonna talk about your ex last, okay?

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, sure.

Thais Gibson: Okay. So on one end of the continuum, in a way, okay. Is the anxious attachment style anxiously attached. Kids grow up in environments where they get a lot of either real or perceived abandonment.

Real abandonment is the obvious. It's, you know, you grow up with a parent who, God forbid, passes away, or you grew up in a fatherless home. These typical situations where there's an abandonment at a young age, and this conditions a child to constantly fear abandonment, [00:16:00] perceived abandonment has a similar impact of, its repeated enough over time because what we're exposed to through repetition and emotion is firing and wiring neural pathways in the brain.

So, children who grew up with perceived abandonment are things like, they have very loving parents, so they associate love as being a good thing. They yearn for it, they want more of it. But maybe their parents are constantly traveling for work, and the kids are left with a nanny and then the grandparents.

So for children, they grow up in an environment where love is there, and then love is taken away, and then love is there again, and it's taken away, and they keep bracing and fearing that love will be taken away. As a result of this, they end up being individuals as adults who go into kind of overdrive to people, please.

Other people, they will often do everything that they can. They'll avoid their own boundaries. They'll ignore themselves. They won't even really find out too much about who they are because their identity is so based in what people think of them, how much approval they have from people around them, and their biggest wounds or fears and relationships end up being the fear of being abandoned, obviously, but also the fear of ending up alone forever.

The fear of being [00:17:00] excluded, disliked, rejected, not good enough. These are these overarching themes. They cope with these fears by basically always trying to maintain proximity. They're like, let me just get closer to you. Let me figure out how to win you over. And so they often become very charismatic, friendly, outgoing people, but they struggle to have a strong sense of self and they burn themselves out by people pleasing.

They're always putting themselves last. So that's our anxious attachment style. And I'm gonna pause if you have any questions about that one.

Jordan Harbinger: No, it makes perfect sense actually. Yeah, there's, I mean, it just seems like, I don't know, for me, my first instinct is if you get like a fly in the ointment or whatever, early on in childhood, it really screws you up.

I mean, at least as far as this stuff goes, I suppose.

Thais Gibson: Yeah. And that is very true and, and what I would say is two things. Each attachment style is its own superpowers, anxious attachment style is very friendly, outgoing. They work well in teams. They're really good at making people feel included and seen.

They have superpowers, but also you are not stuck with your attachment style, okay? It's not fixed for life. You're not born with an attachment style. It gets wired in two through conditioning, right? So we can recondition [00:18:00] based on how neuroplasticity works. So we, we'll come back to all that good stuff again.

Yeah, we'll come back to that. We're not stuck there. Um, on the flip side, and, and the last thing I'll say about anxious attachments all too is they're individuals who, in relationships, they're very needy and clingy as adults. So they'll call repeatedly, they'll text a whole bunch. If you haven't, they haven't heard from you for a period of time, they'll kind of panic.

They're always trying to maintain proximity, and if there's a conflict, they're like, we need to hash it out right now. I used to work with couples and you'd see, you know, an anxious attachment cell, be in a conflict with a, an avoidant and you know, the avoidance like, gimme five minutes. I just need to process this.

I just need space. The anxious attachment cell kind of, you know, the avoidant goes into the other room and closes the door and the anxious attachment cell opens the door mm-hmm. And comes in and wants to resolve it. Right now they're kind of like chasing their partner around the house. You know, I've seen a lot of these situations over the years.

Jordan Harbinger: Yikes.

Thais Gibson: Yeah. Yeah. In many ways the dismissive avoidance is quite the opposite. So dismissive avoidance grow up with their overarching theme being childhood emotional neglect. And sometimes we think of that and we, we think of these huge, [00:19:00] overt forms of neglect where like, parents are never around and kids don't have food at, you know, for dinner.

It can be that, but a lot of times it's quite covert neglect and covert neglect looks like, you know, foods on the table, kids are at school on time, but parents are very emotionally unavailable to their kids. And so what that means is they end up in situations where if the child expresses emotions or is distressed.

They either get completely deflected by the parents and just a complete lack of attunement, or they're even shamed a little bit for their emotions. Like, don't be a cry baby. Figure it out. Those sorts of things.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Thais Gibson: As a result, this individual basically grows up going, this part of me, this emotional, vulnerable part of me is defective, and I'm gonna basically repress this part of me.

It's shameful. Nobody wants to see this, that my emotions constantly get rejected. I'm weak. If I'm vulnerable. I'm gonna suppress my need to have emotional intimacy. I'm gonna suppress my own emotions, and then I'm more likely to be accepted into my family unit and feel safe in that framework. And as a result, this individual grows up to be the person who does really well early on into dating.

But as soon as [00:20:00] things get a little real, or vulnerability is required, or there's consistency required in communication and commitment, they often panic. They shut down, they push people away. And they're individuals who constantly try to kind of avoid conflict, sweep things under the Rugiet, don't know how to talk about things emotionally and often are individuals who struggle to be present and very emotionally available.

They often usually struggle with commitment as adults as well.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So what was my ex-girlfriend again?

Thais Gibson: We have one more, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. We have one more. That's what I thought. I was like, wait, was that three or four? Yeah. Okay. I'm dying to know because I mean, honestly, she wasn't avoided. She chased me all over this, uh, Panama City.

So that wasn't it. Or, or, yeah. But insecure. Yeah. There, there was some of that, that's for sure.

Thais Gibson: Okay. So she strikes me very much as this last one. Okay. And I'll tell you why. Fearful avoid it. Okay. Mm. So fearful avoidant is also referred to as disorganized attachment style, but for the sake of the podcast, we'll call it fearful avoidant, we'll keep to one name.

Fearful avoidance grow up with their overarching theme being bigger T trauma. So [00:21:00] this could be anything from somebody who is a parent who has narcissistic personality disorder. They love mom one day, they're very mean and cruel. The next day, a parent who's an alcoholic or an active addiction where maybe mom's had a few drinks, she's in a good mood, she's sweet another day she's had many more drinks and she's cruel and she's angry.

Basically, a, a child grows up with these themes, even if they're in the middle of a really bad divorce or a very turbulent marriage between their parents. They grow up with the overarching being, being that they do not know how to trust their environment. They're like, I don't know what to do in this situation.

I don't know what version of a person I'm gonna get. I don't know if I should be scared or open. And they end up having basically conflicting conditioning about the same thing. They think love is a good thing because they've had some good experiences with love when mom's in a good mood or dad's kind and love is also a terrifying thing and they're not really sure which one it's.

So they grow up with this very strong anxious side to them, but also this very strong avoidance side to them. They [00:22:00] tend to move very quickly in early relationships. They're very present and available, but they're very hot and cold and they express a lot of their anxious side where they wanna cling. They wanna move quickly, but then they're like, Hey, you should be doing this.

You should be called. They, they put a lot of pressure on people and they push back and they kind of pinball back and forth. And it really struck me that your ex was doing that. You started off the story by saying she told you to go away.

Jordan Harbinger: She was being rude and I didn't put up with it. And that was what attracted her.

She and because I guess most guys they put up with it. She told me later, she was like, guys will just put up with an endless amount of whatever I put out there. And she's like It at Attract. I thought it was attractive that you didn't put up with that. Now I remember thinking like. What a stupid game. So you're trying to push the guys that you actually want away by being terrible.

And so that's why when I was like, I'm done with, oh, I forgot to tell you this. So then my friend was dating her friend. I was not interested in her. 'cause I thought you blew it. Right? Um, she was very beautiful. But who cares? Uh, I don't have, ain't nobody got time for that. Right? So her, [00:23:00] my buddy who was working with me at the embassy went out with her friend and he's like, come out with us.

It's just me and Ali. And I was like, cool, we're gonna go to the movies and dinner and I'll be this weird third wheel. Well, Ali brought Perla, that's her, that was her name. And I showed up and I was like, Nope, I'm not doing this. You tricked me into coming here. He's like, dude, I didn't know she was gonna be here.

I was like, you tricked me into coming here. I'm leaving. I walked home and he was like, man, you left me hanging with two girls. I was like, you're welcome. And he's like, no, she loves you now. Like she. Is desperate to talk to. And I was like, wait a minute. The more I push this woman away, the stronger she comes back at me.

What is happening here? 'cause I was 20, I mean, I was not prepared for this kind of thing at all. I mean, when I grew up dating was like, huh, do you wanna like go do something? And is like, uh, I guess you know, that was where I was at with my dating life, right? And this girl was like, I'm going to punch you in the face and then chase you down and make out with you.

I mean, that was crazy to me.

Thais Gibson: That's fearful. Avoidant in a nutshell. Like honestly, because the part is that there's this [00:24:00] anxious side, this very anxious side, fearful, avoid symptoms, express more of an anxious side than just the anxious attachment style. But there's also an avoidance side too. And they pinball back and forth.

Do you remember this strange situation, experiment we talked about a minute ago? Yes. Yes. And the child made this bid for connection, and then when the parent would get closed, they would then push the parent away. It's exactly that. It's the fact that you saw her, you said in your words, you said she was really bitchy or she was quite bitchy and she was trying to be mean to sort of push somebody away and then if they went away, then she would make the bits of connect for connections to pull back in.

Yeah. Anxious attachments, all are very people. Pleaing very early on. They're very nice. Very sweet. Yeah. Sweetest pie, almost to a fault. They don't really have good boundaries. Fearful of winds will be kind of harsh, critical. They'll try to be pushy, they'll try to push your buttons and then when you don't put up with it or then you walk away, then they really wanna chase.

And so that's very fearful of wind behavior and guaranteed that. Had you come back and been like, okay, well I actually I'm interested or expressed interest in her further. She would've turned around and been rude again and tried to push you away again. Yeah. And just gone through this volatile kind of rollercoaster of [00:25:00] back and forth.

Jordan Harbinger: She was, I hate that I use the word bitchy 'cause I really don't use that word, but it was like the closest and most accurate thing because I'd be like, what was your name? And she'd be like, I told you already. I mean, it was like over the top. And then you're right when I, as soon as I was like, I don't have time for this, she was like so sweet.

And she was so apologetic. But I figured out quick enough that I had to balance this. 'cause I was never like, oh, I can be normal now. I was, I was always like, you know what? I always have to keep you somewhat at arm's length and then be nice for a little while and then keep you at arm's length again. And she, that was what she needed, which is not, I hated that.

I hate games like that in relationships. Even at age 20. It was like, who deals with this all the time? This is ridiculous. I just wanna go to the movies. I don't wanna like do a weird dance so that you stick around and enjoy yourself. And then also that I'm not being tormented, you know? I just felt like, how are you going to.

Ever have a relationship that's not completely chaos,

Thais Gibson: and for the person who goes through that experience themselves, their inner world is so turbulent first. So here's what's really happening. They [00:26:00] have these conflicting ideas about love. They're like, I want love, love and, and connection is a good thing and I, I really want it.

But because they've had so many really painful experiences with it that usually quite cruel or even threatening, they're like, but love will deeply hurt me. So a lot of fearful avoidance, they end up in situations where they're very, very anxious. They want that closeness, but it's like they want something and they're terrified of it at the same time.

And so they're the type of individual who goes into relationships already feeling threatened by having any kind of interest or feelings for somebody. And so that's what they carry in and that's their conditioning and that's what caused them to pinball back and forth. It's very hard to be on the receiving end of that, but it's also very difficult for the person going through that as well.

Doesn't make their behavior. Okay. Yeah, it doesn't mean like the whole point is to learn about the person's own patterning and then actually rewire it and change it, but. That's a sort of slice into what they're usually going through in their inside world.

Jordan Harbinger: This stuff is just so mystifying to those of us that are not in that camp.

Right? Because again, like when I went to college, I was still in college at that point. I went back to school and I remember my friend Jessica brings over this girl and she's like, [00:27:00] being really rude in my apartment. I mean, just rude. And I said, you know, if you're gonna be that way, you can just leave. My roommates were like, oh dang.

Like he's, you know, calling her out on that. And my friend Jessica was like, are you being mean to her? And I was like, no, she's being rude to me and you're in my apartment. What are you doing? Why would you bring someone like this over? And then we were like, my friend's, like, okay, let's all go to a party.

Because it was like, you know, degrading the quality of, of life, you know, killing the vibe, so to speak. And we go to this party and I, I go in there and I'm like, you know, I'm not in the mood to be here. So I just go home and I immediately get a call from my friend, Jessica's like, where are you? And I said, oh, I walked back home.

I was kind of like pissed off and, you know, I figured like, she doesn't want me there. I don't wanna make it awkward for you. And she's like, no, my, she's like. Where's Jordan? And I'm like, wait, the girl that just was rude to me that I said, you can leave, and then we left and then I left so that you guys could have fun.

And she was like, yeah, when are you, you gotta come back here. She is nagging me. She wants to see. And I was like, I do not understand women. I don't get it. What's happening? I don't get it. It's of course not all women, but I just remember like these people who did [00:28:00] that kind of thing. This attachment style for me was like, aliens.

I just never, I was like, what is happening right now? I, I still, it's still confusing honestly, as a grown ass man, I'm like, what was all that? That's why I'm asking you these questions. I

Thais Gibson: think a big part of it's because as soon as you set boundaries with somebody like that, that's where they're like, oh, you're not gonna put, and, and actually fearful of avoid an attachment style specifically more than any other attachment style.

They usually have a lot of their own like really great qualities too. Like I don't wanna paint them as like, every person has all these terrible things going on. They have a, a really turbulent inner world when it comes to relationships and attraction and attachment, but they're usually, when you get to know them, they're very deep people.

They're usually. Very loyal to the people they care about. Really give the shirt off their back, but before actually sort of building that connection or attachment. As soon as they feel like somebody sets boundaries with them, they kind of like that challenge. They're like, oh, there's a challenge here.

There's a wall to break down. There's somebody that I have to really get to know at a deeper level. And so they sort of chase after that. But then as soon as somebody gets close, they also feel that sort of threat or fear by it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I couldn't help but feel bad for the girl that I dated in Panama, just [00:29:00] 'cause I, I, I saw this in her, right?

Like, she would cuss me out the night before super upset about something that I don't even remember, that I thought was like, no big deal. Which

Thais Gibson: is the push away behavior. That's the push away that, yeah, exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Then I would wake up in the morning and she will have cooked breakfast and then actually cleaned up our entire apartment, not just my room, the whole apartment where all these sloppy with three dudes, four dudes lived in there.

So imagine 20 years old dudes, imagine what that place looked like and smelled like. And we'd wake up and we'd be like, someone's making pancake empanada, whatever. And has like AED it out and has cleaned the whole kitchen. And where did she get the ingredients? She must have got up like early and gone and bought them.

We're all like sleeping off our hangovers. And she would, they'd be like, dude, your girl's amazing. And I'm like, remember when she yelled at me yesterday and told me that? I was like, things I can't say on this podcast. I don't know, man. I don't know what's going on. But it's a self-fulfilling prophecy for people like this, I think.

Because I remember being like after she stalked me when I was in Costa Rica surfing. And my [00:30:00] roommates were like, dude, you gotta take care of this. I was like, I have to break up with this person. She's crazy, right? And I did. And she basically was like, no, I don't accept that. And I was like, no, no, you don't understand.

And that made her chase more, which totally makes sense based on what you're telling me now. But back then, made no sense. Right? And then her friend is like, you can't break up with her. Her last boyfriend broke up with her by just leaving. Like, he just booked a flight to America and went home. He was a soldier, like doing security at the Panama Canal.

He just basically was like, I'm gonna be gone for a while. She's like, when? He's like, ah, I'm leaving tomorrow. I'll see you later. And then he just never came back. And I, I thought, oh my God, that guy's terrible. And now I'm like, wait a minute. Did she do the same thing to him? And he was like, she's a psychopath.

I have to run for my life, but not tell her I'm leaving. I don't know. Maybe.

Thais Gibson: Yeah. And when you really look into like the childhood of individuals that go through this, they usually had those same behaviors done to them. In childhood, right? So like imagine that that person's a child at one point and that person has a parent who let's [00:31:00] say has like full blown narcissistic personality disorder.

Not like the throw around term narcissism,

Jordan Harbinger: right?

Thais Gibson: But like the love bombing and then the gaslighting and the manipulation, and sometimes types of abuse that occur. A child goes through even more extreme versions of that, usually growing up from their own parents at a very young and impressionable age.

And so much of how we learn to treat ourselves and treat others comes from how we were treated in childhood. And so I always say to people like, your internal dialogue is often internalized dialogue. Like how you were spoken to in childhood, or how you heard your parents speak to each other often becomes the way you learn to speak to yourself.

And so a lot of what happens is that person goes for that first, that becomes their own inner conditioning. Then they go into relationships. They want this love, they want this openness and connection. But there's just all of this chaos going on in their own brain where they want this closeness. They feel like they're gonna get deeply hurt by people.

They assume that they don't trust them. So they're like, the more I love and care about you, the more you're gonna end up hurting me. And now they're in this really tumultuous dynamic. And again, the whole point, and this is why I'm so passionate about [00:32:00] learning to rewire our attachment style and actually changing it, is because the whole point is that it's really hard to be insecurely attached for different reasons based on each attachment style.

And it's really hard to be on the receiving end of those behaviors. It's in a sense, when you're on that end of it, you're getting that sort of trauma passed on to you.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Thais Gibson: And so it's difficult for each person and it's like, okay. And then we have this whole theory in in the world where everybody's like, oh, I'm just this attachment style.

That's just how I am now. And people start to identify with the label and it's like, no, the most important thing is let's understand the patterns deeply and then let's understand the neuroscience of how we actually rewire our brain and leverage neuroplasticity to understand you're not born with an attachment cell gets conditioned into you and we can rewire and recondition these themes.

Jordan Harbinger: Does this go beyond romantic relationships? For example, is parallel gonna be at work? That's my ex from Panama. Is she gonna be at work being like, my boss said this was good, I'm gonna walk all over him, and then, oh, he said it was terrible. Now I'm gonna do better. I mean, does it show up there too, or is it mostly just kind of your intimate partners where [00:33:00] they show?

Thais Gibson: Good. Great question. Excellent question. So generally, your attachment style is the most loud and the relationships you feel the most vulnerable with. So obviously the more vulnerable you feel to somebody, like even if you look at your own life, even if you would say that you're securely attached, you know, we always have a little more anxiety or nerves.

If we think that somebody we deeply love, we could lose, right? So this actually shows up in our attachment style patterns, which is your attachment style, ultimately is the relationship you have to yourself first, which means that's gonna be what shows up in all relationships, period. Your attachment cell will definitely show up in friendships, family relationships, romantic relationships, even your coworking relationships.

But who we feel the most vulnerable to, or who we attach to the most deeply, in other words, is where the biggest wounds and fears are gonna come to fruition, and that's where we're gonna see those behaviors show up the most. An analogy for this would be if you have a job that you don't really like.

Somebody gives you negative feedback at the job, but you're already looking for new jobs. You don't really care. You're gonna be like, okay, you know, no big deal. Not gonna take it. So, personally, I know this isn't for me, not [00:34:00] too big of an issue, but if you're like, okay, my wife, I found the love of my life, I never wanna lose her, and then something could happen with her, or that relationship is threatened, it's gonna stir things up in you in a different way.

And if you already come in with all these maladaptive attachment conditions or conditioning, then obviously those are gonna be the things that flare the most where you feel the most vulnerable.

Jordan Harbinger: It seems like attachment style pairings that would work well together. There's gotta be like, oh, the, you're, you're, uh, what do you call it?

Like trauma spot matches my trauma spot, but also two secure people. Seems like a pretty good relationship. Is that kind of the goal? Like oh two, secure people not dragging each other through the mud to, uh, reenact our childhood nonsense.

Thais Gibson: So for sure, the most optimal attachments, all pairing is two secure people.

And what's really interesting is your conscious mind is responsible for roughly three to 5% of all your decisions. Your conscious mind being your logical, analytical thinking self. Your subconscious mind, which is the warehouse of all of your conditioning, is responsible for all the decisions all day long you make on autopilot when you're not [00:35:00] logically reasoning them all the way through.

And that is responsible for 95 to 97% of all of our actions on a daily basis. Your subconscious mind, in other words, is running the show. The way we end up in relationships is you will end up with the attachment style who feels most familiar, because at the end of the day, your subconscious mind is wired for familiarity and that safety 'cause it says, okay, what's familiar equals safe equals I will survive.

And that means that if you've been in really chaotic patterns, but you've been surviving, your subconscious keeps seeking that out. So we call this your subconscious comfort zone. So when you look at the attachments, all pairing securely attach, people often get together with securely attached people because their zone of familiarity is healthy resolution through conflict, talking things, through being there for each other, emotionally being regulated in how they communicate.

But all different insecurely attached individuals usually end up with other insecurely attached individuals and more specifically of different attachment cells than what they are, rather than fearful avoidance. So anxiously attach people, if you look at them. [00:36:00] They're very avoidant to themselves. They're always people pleasing, everybody else trying to win over approval.

They avoid spending time alone. They don't really like spending time with themselves. So they're often very attracted to people who mirror that back to them, who treat them the way they treat themselves.

Jordan Harbinger: So somebody who doesn't wanna spend time with them.

Thais Gibson: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my gosh. Okay.

Thais Gibson: And it's why you see, and it's actually tragic, but it's why you see in the data anxiously attach individuals almost always end up being attracted to and investing in long-term.

Other avoidant individuals, whether they're fearful, avoidant or dismissive, avoidant, they often chase after people who are unavailable because that's their theme.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man.

Thais Gibson: And so, you know, our attachments, like you said, do trauma spots, kind of like what work well together. The reality is that if somebody's insecurely attached, they're usually gonna end, end up in unfulfilling relationships, even if they get married, even if there's some degree of settling down.

Those are the marriages where there's all there, there's always resentment. They're always fighting, they're always on the rocks. And the reality is that what we should be actually focusing on is understanding that whatever we need to do. To heal. Heal in the [00:37:00] relationship that we're in and to actually make the relationship work with somebody else who's insecurely attached.

If somebody themselves is insecurely attached, exactly what we need to do for the relationship just so happens to be the exact thing we need to do to heal in the relationship to ourselves. So let's say for example, you have an anxious and a dismissive avoidant together. Well, what's the work the anxious needs to do?

They need to learn to respect the dismissive winds need for space sometimes, and freedom and autonomy, and they need to learn to, in order to do that, they have to learn to self-soothe. They have to learn to build an identity outside of the relationship. They have to learn to figure out their own needs and who they are as a person.

They have to learn to regulate their own nervous system and do that work. And so that's what heals the relationship. But ultimately it's also what heals the individual. And so I very much believe that the purpose of our relationship is not just for love and connection, but it's also showing us to ourselves.

It's showing, hey, the things that trigger you most are the things that you haven't healed yet or, or grown through yet. And so we have to be able to find out what those are and pat them, and then do that work.

Jordan Harbinger: Gosh, but you're, you're so screwed if you're not aware of these things. Right? If you just, like, I, I look [00:38:00] back at parallel was like 19 or 20 in Iowa was 20, and I'm like, man, I hope you went to therapy and figured this out because there's kind of.

I'm gonna go ahead and guess no way that she knew. Like, oh, since my dad was, I don't know, however, and so I'm, now, I'm putting up with these crappy guys who treat me badly, and then she meets me who treats her nice. And then I'm like, oh my God, you're insane. I have to leave you without saying anything. And so does the previous guy.

Like, that's just a miserable Groundhog Day, self-fulfilling prophecy that you can't shake until you're like, I am doing this because I am filtering in these people. And you, you mentioned before that the avoidance styles or anxious styles, whatever, they usually end up with each other initially. I'm gonna guess because a secure person is like, enough with this crap, I don't have, I can't deal with this.

Why would I deal with this? I mean, maybe some people do, they have a low sense of self worth, so they're gonna put up with somebody who's doing this back and forth, or they just, you know, feel like they'll never find love again or something. So they put up with whatever. But like. [00:39:00] I don't know. For me, I was like, I just don't care how beautiful you are.

This is insane. You're insane. You're a crazy person. I need to not be with you anymore. Like that was my final conclusion.

Thais Gibson: And to be honest, it's exactly what the data shows. Like what ends up happening is securely attached people. They don't stay with people who are insecurely attached 'cause it's not their subconscious comfort zone.

One of the biggest drivers of what creates attraction at a subconscious level is familiarity. And so people will be like, no, I'm not okay with this. This is unhealthy. Especially if they have this healthier reference point and they ultimately leave. And what's actually really tragic is it out in the world right now, a lot of people are like, oh, if you're insecurely attached, you can heal by just dating a secure person.

And it never works because a secure person does not stay with those insecurely attached people. The vast majority of the time, the only exception of just somebody's like, you know, actively doing the work and healing, then we'll see. Okay then that can work. But also on the flip side, which is even, you know, just as wild, is that people who were insecurely attached.

When they meet a securely attached person, you know what the most often reported theme is here for [00:40:00] fearful avoidance and anxious attachment alls will say, you know what? I feel like this person when they invest in me securely over time. I feel like I'm kind of bored.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I was gonna say they're boring, right?

Yeah.

Thais Gibson: And they, 'cause they're used to the chaos and their nervous system is comfortable in chaos. And when that's not there, and if stability is there from that secure person for too long, they just end up rejecting the secure NLP partner.

Jordan Harbinger: You see this so much, man, like, I can't remember. Well, I can't actually, I shouldn't say, I can't remember.

I can't say more like who I was talking to. But I have an acquaintance who finds herself being like the other woman in relationships, you know? And it's like, oh. And I'm like, don't you wanna date a guy that's like not married or whatever? And she's like, I don't know. I just find taking men more attractive.

And I'm like, this is what I'm talking about when I say not being aware of your pattern. 'cause I don't think she says, oh, when I was young, my dad was hot and cold and left on business trips and came back and then said he was divorcing my mom and that he had a new family. And then he would show up for Christmas and stay for six months.

Like, she doesn't say that, she just thinks, oh, taken men are just, there's something about them. And I'm like, no, there's something about you and the way that you [00:41:00] grew up that's attracted to a guy. You can never and will never commit to you because it's familiar and it reminds you of your dad. But no, she just thinks like, oh, they're bad boys and they're cheating on their wives, so that's sexy.

And I'm like, oh, you are. You're one layer in on the onion and you're never gonna shake this nonsense. And then of course they're like, I'm too old to have kids. Why can't I find a guy? Maybe because you date guys who have kids and wives dummy. You know, like, what are you doing? And the dream, it's because they're not aware of.

This, they don't get it. Right. It's not like it's still in their subconscious just causing hell.

Thais Gibson: Exactly. And honestly, what you don't see is like, 'cause obviously I've worked with the inside of people's lives so much and still do through all of our online programs, and it's like what you don't see are the sleepless nights.

And at times people like that cry themselves to sleep. Like she, she may say, oh yeah, I'm just really, there's something about married men. Right. I guarantee, because I've had countless conversations with people in that situation. Exactly. To your point, she probably grew up with something where she felt like she had to constantly be the second option.

She didn't really feel like [00:42:00] she was having parents be present with her or be there for her consistently. She probably felt like she had to win their affection or approval or compete for attention. So that's probably her conditioning. That's what feels familiar. She doesn't realize that that's what's driving attraction.

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Thais Gibson: But keeps chasing after those things to the extent where it breaks her own heart over and over again. People go through suffering when they're going through those things.

Jordan Harbinger: So how do we change it? That's what everyone's like. Okay. Shut up Jordan. She said she was gonna teach us how to change it. I'm sure people wanna know what the first few steps are.

'cause this is maladaptive, right? I mean,

Thais Gibson: extremely.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's not good for you. You can't, you can't live your whole life like this unless you just want. A constant rollercoaster of chaos. And like if you want kids, you don't want them around with your partner and you doing this nonsense. Because at some level, even if you're as dense as my friend or friend's friend who just, you know, well, I like Mary at some level, you know, this is not healthy.

Right? I mean, you know it at least subconsciously that this is a mess and you've gotta fix it.

Thais Gibson: Exactly. And people eventually, usually are like, okay, I'm sick and tired of feeling like this. People eventually get [00:43:00] somewhere close to that point and they're like, okay, and, and the work isn't actually that difficult, but I just don't think people have good resources.

So there's five pillars of how we heal. I can go into them at a high level and then we can kind of go through some nuances. But here's the first one. The first pillar is to rewire those triggers, because those triggers are subconscious. So I'll say them at a high level first and then we'll dive into each one.

First one, rewire those triggers. So the fear of abandonment. If fear of being alone excluded, or if you're more avoidant, the fear of being trapped, helpless, powerless. If you open up weak, if you're vulnerable, these big fears that are driving our behaviors, okay,

Jordan Harbinger: okay?

Thais Gibson: You're not born with them. They get conditioned into you.

We can recondition them, and I'm happy to come back to a tool that talks about how to do that. And it's not affirmations, because affirmations don't work from a neuroscience perspective. We'll go a lot deeper. So that's point number one. Second point is we have to learn what our needs are in a relationship, and we actually have to meet them within ourselves.

So one of the biggest ways that we learn to regulate and self-soothe is to understand, okay, this is what I'm actually looking for in a [00:44:00] relationship, and we have to be able to fill our own cup halfway. People often don't like hearing that, but it's something securely attached. People naturally do if they want validation and encouragement in a relationship, they're usually pretty good at being kind in terms of how they validate themselves or encourage themselves in their internal dialogue.

If they want to feel protected in a relationship, they're usually pretty good at giving that to themselves. 'cause they set pretty good boundaries on a regular basis. So all of these things that we're seeking for from other people, and maybe I'll, I'll go a little down the rabbit hole in this one for a second, but

Jordan Harbinger: Sure.

Thais Gibson: Our needs, and you've probably seen this, you saw that with your ex in um, Panama, is. Wherever. We don't know how to meet some of our own needs, we end up because we can't self source, we end up putting all of the external pressure on somebody to source it for us. To do it for us. Right.

Jordan Harbinger: Which is why she was literally coming over to my house when I said I was gone.

Thais Gibson: Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. She like couldn't function without me and which made no sense. We'd been dating on and off for, you know, I don't know, a month. Right. I mean, it made no sense.

Thais Gibson: Exactly. And so what [00:45:00] ends up happening is when you see somebody like, and, and if you look at this, like let's just look at a, a typical like anxious attachment cell for example.

Obviously she's a great example, but if we look at somebody who's anxiously attached, they don't know how to self-soothe. So what, what is the anxious attachment cell do? They're constantly, if they have a problem at work or a problem in their relationship, they need to deal with it right now. Go follow their partner around the house.

Or if they're not in a relationship, they will call everybody. They know if they to talk about their boss, they'll call their mom. If their mom doesn't answer their dad, their siblings, their children, like anybody, they can't regulate themselves. So we tend to. Put extraneous pressure to source from other people what we have not learned to give to ourselves.

And each attachment cell has a specific set of needs that they need in a relationship. And when they start self sourcing them part way, they can regulate much more effectively. So that's our second pillar. Okay. And if you look at that a step deeper, like that's our anxious attachment style, they don't how to emotionally regulate.

So they put that pressure on others, dismissive avoidance. They don't know how to understand their own emotions and communicate. They just shut down. They don't really know [00:46:00] how to say, Hey, I need more of this in the relationship, or, Hey, can we work on this together? They don't really know what they're feeling or how to communicate it.

So dismissive avoidance. Put exceptional pressure on their partners to do it all for them. They're always like, oh, you should just understand me. I shouldn't have to explain myself. Well, you're saying I shouldn't have to explain myself because you don't know how to communicate. Right? You see how this thread ties through for each attachment style.

That

Jordan Harbinger: would just be exhausting though. Like I, look, I'm sure I'm not a perfectly secure what I probably, nobody has like no flaw, sort of a flawlessly secure attachment style, but all of this insecure stuff just sounds exhausting. Because a lot of it's one side. Well, with me it would be one sided, right?

Like, I wasn't like, does Perla like me or does she not? Like, I was just like, oh my God, I can't with her right now. Like, I have to be in the mood for this. Oh God, it's Friday, she's gonna wanna come out. You know? It's like I just, that's, that was my clue. It was, I was like, I, okay. I dreading her coming out. I know she's gonna go to the club even though I didn't call her, you know?

And she's gonna call me tonight and go, why [00:47:00] don't call men. Men call me and you should know that. And I've told you this a hundred times. And I just remember being so exhausted by this. And so I, I don't know. I just feel like. Nobody's perfect, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Especially when it comes to this.

Nobody probably had a perfect childhood either. So are there shades of all or most of these in some people, and with some people it's like 1%, and other people it's like 50%? Or is it kind of just your, is it almost binary like you're one or you're you? You either are this or you're not.

Thais Gibson: In a sense It exists along a continuum for sure.

Okay. Like you can be some, somebody can be slightly anxiously attached or extremely anxiously attached. Somebody can be a little bit avoidant or extremely avoidant, right? We can see it in that way. But as a general rule, there's a big difference between somebody who's secure, who's gonna work through conflict in a healthy way, not shut things under the Rugiet, be available for a healthy conversation, not expect people to mind read in a relationship, not punish people in this rollercoaster type way, like somebody who's secure is going to exhibit vastly different behaviors from any of the other three insecure attachment cells.

So we have these five pillars. So first pillar, [00:48:00] rewiring your core wounds. Second pillar, learning what your needs are and how to meet them. Third pillar is regulating your nervous system. All three insecure attachment styles have dysregulated nervous systems. They spend far too much time in sympathetic nervous system mode, AKA fight, flight, freeze, or fun.

So it's actually about, Hey, let's learn how to regulate your nervous system. And again, I can go deeper in any of these pillars. The next one is learning healthy boundaries. You see all insecure attachment solve. Have a dysfunctional relationship to boundaries. Um, anxious attachment solve, have no boundaries.

Dismissive avoidance have two extreme of boundaries. They're like, oh, I'm just gonna cancel plans 'cause I'm tired. I'm not gonna say, Hey, can we just stay in instead? So they're really quick to set more extreme boundaries 'cause they don't know how to bridge that gap and communicate openly. And then fearful avoidance, kind of going back to your ex, they usually are boundaryless.

They people please people please be overly generous. Then they'll feel taken advantage of and frustrated because they don't communicate their needs back. So then they feel like I'm just giving and not receiving. And then they explode and then they punish somebody and then they feel guilty about [00:49:00] their behavior and they go back to being boundaryless again.

And that reminds me of that pattern where you said she called you all the names and then she's up cleaning the whole house and, and cooking breakfast.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's so crazy making so weird. It's so confusing for people who aren't that right, because it just looks like a totally dysregulated person. But she, she was smart.

I mean, she was not dumb. She was, they're clever. She not a person who was non-functional. I, I don't wanna out her, but she was a runner up in a national beauty pageant. She was also working in an office job that required a college degree. She spoke Spanish and English. Not so, not as much English, but like she was educated, you know, this was not a person who is just like, has no future and is like, wants a green card.

You know what I mean? This is not like what a lot of us were sort of dealing with when we were going out to bars and clubs at age 20 in, in Panama. This is an so had she not sort of outed herself as a complete nut job, guys were like, wow, you've really scored. And I was. Yeah, she's beautiful and she's got a good job.

And she's smart. And she's charming. But wait about three hours and you [00:50:00] will be running out of my apartment like you will, you will jump off my balcony to get away from her. You know, it's crazy and I don't wanna put too fine a point on this, but there's a security guy outside, right? 'cause it's embassy housing and I remember.

When we left once, he was like, where's your girl? Is she coming by tonight? And I was like thinking like, oh, 'cause she's hot. And he's like, he was basically like, I'm gonna hide in the car when she comes by. Like, you guys are on your own. KGB wants to sneak in. I don't care. You know, I just do not wanna deal with her because when, when I was gone, he'd have to be like, you can't go up without Jordan.

And she'd be like, I know he's in there. You better let me in. And he's like, I can't, I just work here. I just work here. Don't hate me. I have nothing to do with this.

Thais Gibson: In fairness too, not all fearful avoidance are always this extreme.

Jordan Harbinger: Like she was extreme. Yeah. Yeah. She,

Thais Gibson: yeah, she was definitely very intense in in that way, it sounds like.

And yeah, like the, and people get stuck in long-term marriages not sorting out these issues. Like people really get stuck there long-term. Oh my God. And then the fifth and last [00:51:00] pillar is people have to learn how to communicate. Like so many insecurely attached people, it's actually very sad. They don't learn how to communicate properly.

So they say things like, let's say you have an anxious attachment cell partner. They might say, you don't care about me, you never spend any time with me. As soon as people communicate through negative framing, they do not get heard. And so the flip of this would be saying something like, Hey, I'm feeling disconnected.

I really wanna spend more quality time together. Can we plan a fun date on Saturday? And like that gets people heard in relationships. All three, insecure attachment style, dismissive avoidance, don't try to communicate much at all. They communicate through actions. They'll just not show up or not answer you or avoid.

Then we have fearful avoidance who communicate through a lot more volatility. Very critical, extremely harsh. More of what you saw with your, your ex. And then we have anxious attachment cells who will communicate through low level criticism, but they will go on and on and on very repeatedly. And unfortunately, all of their communication is so dysfunctional that they think they're communicating and then they wonder why they're not getting heard.

Because the way we communicate, if it's coming from that space of saying, you don't care about me, you're not doing [00:52:00] this, you're doing that, or it's harsh or it's critical, then all of a sudden what happens is they never get heard. They feel more resentful, more frustrated, and this will cause a relationship to spin out.

So I really tell people, and there's a there, you know. We take people through programs to help them on these five pillars to heal, and we take them through these 90 day cycles. But the whole goal here is look, when we change communication, at least that opens up to being able to regulate with your partner and move through things a lot more effectively.

So that's our, our fifth major pillar.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So you, you mentioned a 90 day cycle. Is that kind of like how long it takes to put a dent in?

Thais Gibson: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: A negative behavior pattern or attachment style like that?

Thais Gibson: Exactly. To become much more secure within that period of time, if not more fully secure. And we take people through a few things.

So there's these five pillars. We go across these 90 day cycles. The first pillar, going back to it in a little more details, we have to rewire those ones. So these are things we end up doing. We teach people the exercise, we take them through them, and then they can do as a part of a daily routine. So. I'll share maybe a tool here if that's helpful for how to actually [00:53:00] rewire and recondition this.

So as I mentioned, anxious attachment cells or big wounds or feeling abandoned, alone, excluded, disliked not good enough, rejected, unloved, like these very fear-based thought processes of, oh my gosh, people are gonna pull away from me. They're gonna leave me. And it's because I'm, all of these things, dismissible points are like, I'm gonna be trapped, I'm gonna be helpless, I'm gonna be powerless.

I need space. Sure, I'm gonna be weak if I'm vulnerable or seen as shameful if I'm too emotional. So they're kind of on the other side of the continuum. Fearful avoidance, have kind of the core wounds of both, and they have a massive fear of betrayal. They also have a massive fear of unworthiness that they tend to super overcompensate for.

Which is interesting too, to your point of your ex, because a lot of fearful avoidance are highly successful in different things. 'cause they're always trying to earn their worth in the world so that they can get love. So anyways, so we have these core wounds. They are solvable problems. Core wounds are things that will cause extreme disruption for people over long periods of time.

And unfortunately, a lot of people, when, when we hear things in the, the online world will say, oh, you wanna change your, your wounds or your limiting beliefs or your [00:54:00] fears. Do affirmations and affirmations. No offense, I don't, I hopefully you don't love affirmations.

Jordan Harbinger: I know they don't do anything, so I'm not a fan.

Yeah. They don't do anything. So that's when, I mean, there's a reason. It's like that cliche of, um, well I, most people are probably too old for this, but, but what was that guy on Saturday Night Live where we would go, I'm good enough, I'm smart enough and Doug on it. People like me, right? That guy. Yeah.

Stewart Smalley. Yeah. That those were, uh, affirmations and like widely debunked is kind of just nonsense that people picked up in the eighties.

Thais Gibson: Exactly. And here's why. Okay. So the reason is that your conscious mind speaks language and your problems are not at the conscious level of mind. Your conscious mind is your reasoning mind.

So your conscious, if I say to you, okay, whatever you do, Jordan, do not think of a pink elephant. You probably flash an image of a pink elephant, even though you heard me say, do not. It's because your conscious mind here is do not. But your subconscious mind speaks in emotions and imagery and it's quite quicker to jump into emotions and imagery before your conscious mind can fully process or register [00:55:00] things.

Jordan Harbinger: Sure.

Thais Gibson: So when we're trying to say, let's say somebody has a huge fear of being not good enough or abandoned because of their childhood experiences, we cannot just say, oh, I'm good enough. I'm good enough. Or I'm going, you know, retain connection and, and have love, and just tell ourselves that over the all the time, because nobody has those wounds at a conscious mind level.

Nobody is waking up every day saying, oh, today I'm gonna tell myself I'm not good enough 37 times and see how I feel. These exist at the subconscious level. They've been imprinted into your conditioning, and we're running through these things on autopilot without often even consciously realizing that these thought processes are happening.

So. How do we actually rewire the subconscious level? And by the way, your subconscious mind and conscious mind dilemma, this is also why people will be like, oh, I'm gonna change my, my patterns at New Year's. I'm gonna set a New Year's resolution to quit eating chocolate or go to the gym every day and your conscious mind intends and then we don't follow through.

And 88% of people fail their New Year's resolution in the first seven days. It's 'cause unless we ingrain things at the subconscious level, our conscious mind can intend everything. But your conscious mind cannot out will [00:56:00] or overpower your subconscious mind. So going back, so core wound, I'm not good enough, or I'll be abandoned.

Okay, step one, we have three steps. Find its opposite. Let's just say to keep the example really easy. I'm not good enough. I am good enough. Now we go into the actual steps that are gonna help rewire. Number two is your subconscious mind speaks in emotions and images. So that's the actual language of the subconscious mind.

So when we want to actually get the emotions and images to down to our subconscious mind, where the wound exists, how do we do that? Well, every memory we ever have. It's just a container of emotions and imagery. If you were to say your favorite childhood memory or, or high school memory, when you're hanging out with friends that you've had for decades and you're catching up, we've all seen people tell an old memory like, oh, in childhood I was playing at the beach with my parents.

And you see the images in that memory of the ocean or the waves or the sand bucket when you're making a sandcastle. And we've all seen people, when they recall an old memory, they laugh or they smile when they tell the story, or if it's a sad memory, they get upset. So all memories are actually containers [00:57:00] for emotions and images.

So now what we do is we need 10 memories of times that we actually felt good enough. Why do we need 10? Because repetition, repetition, emotion and imagery together. The ingredients that rewire the subconscious mind. So that really build new neural networks, right? We've all heard what fires together. Wires together.

So step one, I am not good enough. I am good enough. Step two, 10 times, I actually felt good enough. It's evidence-based. It's real to our brain. It's things we actually felt good enough about. It can be, I had a, a great conversation last week that was difficult for me in the workplace, and I felt good enough.

Then it can be, you know what? I showed up really well yesterday with a friend and, and I, you know, hash something out with them, we're coming up with actual times. We felt good enough that elicit some emotions, some images, we get 10 of them for repetition. Step three is we wanna record ourselves saying it out loud, and then we actually wanna listen back to this across a 21 day cycle, 21 days in a suggestible state, or up to [00:58:00] 63 days if we're in a position where we're just doing it without actually being in a suggestible state.

A suggestible state means when your brain is producing more alpha and theta brainwaves, so when your subconscious mind is more open to suggestion, this happens naturally in the first hour that we wake up, the last hour before we go to sleep or after meditation, these types of things, we're in a more relaxed state.

What happens is we're getting repetition of emotions and images to fire and wire these neural networks in a time where we're highly suggestible, which is now driving down that information to our subconscious mind. And this is what helps us really alleviate that wound across that 21 day cycle.

Jordan Harbinger: So I assume there's a ton more in your 90 day process here because, well, it takes 90 days, first of all, uh, instead of an hour.

But this is fascinating stuff and I think I, I think people, well, let me wrap with this. How do people. Sort of become aware that they need this. Like what is your clue that like, Hey, I'm not a secure attachment style and I probably need this. What's, what's our first indication of this, of that? Because, you know, [00:59:00] for me, I'm like, okay, I, I am happily married.

I could probably use a little polishing, but there's other people hopefully not parallel. Hopefully she's found love and is totally fine, poor lady. But there's poor people like that. Poor lady. Poor lady. But there's people like that out there who are like, oh my God, this is me. But maybe there's others who are like, is this me?

How do we know? What is our first clue?

Thais Gibson: Okay, so number one, if you're not where you wanna be in terms of success in relationships, like, just like you would say, I'm not one where I wanna be in career. Maybe I wanna get a mentor. Like same thing with that. So number one, that's if you're not where you wanna be, you haven't found love, you're not fulfilled, you're repeating the same types of patterns over and over again.

The same arguments you're hitting your head against the wall. The same themes, you keep arguing about the same things, all of these things. Or if you keep ending up in the same relationship with the same type of person in a different body, oh, always chasing me, unavailable person, or always feeling inundated by the person chasing you.

Any of those themes are gonna tell you a lot. Those are a little more high level. And then of course for most people, they're gonna, who are insecurely attached, they're gonna [01:00:00] recognize themselves in the patterns that we talked about, whether they're anxious or dismissible avoidant or fearful avoidant.

And if that's the case, we're just highly unlikely to have success in relationships until we become securely attached. So that would be a really good example as well.

Jordan Harbinger: Ty, thank you so much. This is really interesting and we'll link to your course in the show notes. I think a lot of people are probably like, how do I fix my stuff?

'cause they, this is one that'll hit close to home for a lot of people. 'cause they'll go, uhoh, this explains things in a way that's uncomfortable, right? I mean. I certainly would imagine when you hear about it from other people and the extreme examples that we gave on the show, I think some people are like, I have a shade or two of that.

Thais Gibson: For

Jordan Harbinger: sure. Hopefully we've done people with service today. Thank you so much.

Thais Gibson: Thank you so much for having me. This is a really fun chat.

Jordan Harbinger: All things Thais will be in the show notes on the website, advertisers deals, discount codes, links to personal development school.com courses will be in the show notes or just check 'em out on her website, personal development school.com.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn and the show is created, an association with PodcastOne. My team [01:01:00] is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Tadas Sidlauskas, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting.

In fact, the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. If you know somebody who's interested in attachment styles or figuring out their disastrous dating life, definitely share this episode with 'em. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.