1343: Stats Say Most Men Are Bad and It Makes You Sad | Feedback Friday

1343: Stats Say Most Men Are Bad and It Makes You Sad | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my sweetheart helping me impart how to get a head start, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Amazing. Callback to the, uh, one-time wee dare, is it?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you know it, but pipe down there, sweetheart, I'm trying to do the intro here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My B. We've got to make sure we don't get evicted, sweetheart.

Jordan Harbinger: Ugh, God, it's not even nails on a chalkboard, it's something itches inside the back of my spine when I hear that now. Ugh. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people, and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, former jihadis, astronauts, extreme athletes, tech luminaries. Are there tech luminaries now? I feel like those people are on the outs with society.

This week we had Lou Valoze, author of Ray Khan: The Betrayal of an Informant. Lou was an ATF agent [00:01:00] who ran one of the best and most productive informants in ATF history. This guy, Ray, went undercover and infiltrated just tons of criminal gangs, leading to hundreds of arrests. Fascinating story. If you like our crime episodes, you'll love this one.

We spoke with Jacob Ward on artificial intelligence and how it might actually make us dumber and removes our ability to make decisions, just how calculators have affected us and our math skills, or maybe I should just speak for myself. We also did a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on Zyn, those pouches that you put in your mouth.

They're, they're nicotine pouches. They're all the rage now. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, and never let the funniest pet names we hear on the show die. But before we kick off today, we wanted to share an update on Christopher Ahn. So Christopher Ahn, just to remind everyone, he is the former Marine we had on the show who in 2019, with an NGO that he was involved in, he entered the North Korean embassy in Madrid, hoping to help staff members defect.

But the operation ended up going sideways. North Korea [00:02:00] identified him and intended to actually assassinate him, which is kind of terrifying. And so for the last several years, he's actually been fighting extradition to Spain on charges tied to the incident, which as we talked about in our interview with him, that was episodes 996 and 997, by the way.

Ab- just a fascinating conversation, a wild story. This case has been extremely challenging, quite devastating to Christopher mentally, emotionally, and financially. Well, a couple months ago, the judge in his case finally released a decision to stop his extradition. So the government had 35 days to appeal.

In the end, they did not appeal. So this is all behind Christopher at last, at long last. The, the legal part anyway, which is a huge win for him. Obviously a massive relief not to get extradited to Spain and then get killed in a Spanish prison by North Korean agents or something like that. Chris sent us a letter after the decision was released.

Gabe, you want to read that for us?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure. So he writes, "The 35 days have come and gone, and I am now officially a free man [00:03:00] I now have to begin the process of rebuilding my life after being sidelined for seven years. I know it'll be a hard road, and to be 100% transparent, it's terrifying me. I've spent the better part of a decade turning off my ambition, finding some contentment in my self-exile, and coming to terms with the fact that I could no longer be the man I used to be.

I had to totally change myself just to be able to survive Being suddenly thrust back into real life with nothing to show for the last seven years and having to now compete for roles against others who have been working in their field the entire time while I worked Fiverr jobs and minimum wage temp work, even though I'm absolutely relieved and happy that my legal battle is over, I get the feeling that this chapter will be much harder.

But like everything else, I've just got to figure it out and do it not for me, but for the people who depend on me. So it is what it is. I also want to be clear that I'm not complaining. The reality is that at this point I share the same struggle as millions of Americans. [00:04:00] I may have gotten to this difficult place in a different way, but having a hard time making ends meet because of a job market that has been thrown into utter chaos is something that is not unique to me.

So I'm not special in that sense. This new difficult phase isn't just my struggle, but all of our struggle as a country trying to make sense of what's going on. Thank you, guys. It's been a very, very lonely journey, and I truly appreciate the few people who have gone out of their way to show me support and love.

It's meant more than you can ever know. Christopher.

Jordan Harbinger: Such a crazy journey that he's been on. My heart really goes out to him, man. I mean, he's got this, or had this sword of Damocles hanging over him for seven years, and now the challenge of going back into the world and trying to jumpstart your career or restart your career.

He obviously took a, a big risk doing what he did for apparently quite noble reasons, right? He was trying to rescue people from the North Korean embassy. But yeah, this just... It sucks.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It does suck. I am so glad he's free, though.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Better struggling here in America than in a [00:05:00] Spanish prison, or worse, in a hospital fighting for his life because someone ran up on him at Madrid Airport with a neurotoxin- Truly

which North Korea has done before. Yeah. Anyway, I know Chris's story was a fan favorite. A lot of you donated to his GoFundMe, which is super kind of you. So just wanted to share that update with all of you. As always, fun ones, doozies. Let's dive in. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, my husband, our two young kids, and I are moving in with my mother-in-law in the next few weeks.

There are many pros to this move. Her neighborhood has tons of kids, the roads are calmer, there's a playground walking distance, her yard is more spacious than ours, we'll be saving several hundred dollars on monthly expenses, and our kids will have their grandma close by. I also have a great relationship with my mother-in-law.

She's an extremely kind and thoughtful person. She's always made it a point to make me feel welcome in her family, and I really enjoy spending time with her. I've always appreciated how close my husband is with his family, how supportive everyone is of one another, and how lucky I am in this department, as [00:06:00] so many people have horrifying mother-in-law stories.

Jordan Harbinger: Seriously, count your blessings on that one.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Our intention is also to help her out financially after her tenants moved out and fill her home with some life and love, as she recently went through a difficult breakup and her father passed away.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm sorry to hear that. But great, everyone wins. I don't know, that sounds like a weird thing to say after that, but there it is.

Gabriel Mizrahi: When we mentioned the idea of moving in, she was ecstatic. She started making room for us before we even finished the thought. I am also very excited about the transition. However, there is one problem. My mother-in-law's cat

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, not where I thought this letter was going

Gabriel Mizrahi: He is not a regular cat. He is extremely territorial, aggressive, mean, and unpredictable.

He hisses at everyone he sees. He pees all over the place, even takes his turds out of the litter box and places them on the rug, couch, beds, tables, et cetera. Wow, so, you know, sounds a lot like you Jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: It does, yeah. Truly, we're cut from the same cloth, me and this cat.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Actually, it sounds like some of the guests you've had on [00:07:00] the show more like.

Jordan Harbinger: It does actually sound a lot like Gene Simmons, frankly. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Gene Simmons and that boyfriend, the sweetheart boyfriend from a few weeks ago.

Jordan Harbinger: Literally, man. This, this is the feline equivalent of what that dude is doing emotionally, just melting down, throwing his metaphorical crap around, and making his girlfriend clean it up.

That is too real.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Seriously, though, I've never heard of a cat doing this.

Jordan Harbinger: I don't know. Can cats be mentally ill? Clearly there's something wrong here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We're already paying for the floors to get redone because of how much his spraying has ruined them. The poor dog has been restricted to only being in the kitchen because anytime she steps foot in a different space, the cat will sprint over and start attacking the dog.

Claws, biting, screeching. It's awful to witness. The dog is so sweet and calm, and this asshole cat doesn't let her be.

Jordan Harbinger: They need to get this cat on Paxil immediately.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Lexapro stat, dude. Not only does the cat attack the dog, he'll also attack people completely unprovoked. He doesn't scratch. He sinks his claws into your neck or arm or back leaving puncture wounds that [00:08:00] take weeks to heal.

He's attacked my three-year-old on multiple occasions. One time we were on the couch praying and he walked up to us, stared at my three-year-old, who didn't realize the cat was there, and jumped on her legs and wouldn't let go.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Wow, that is scary.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Fun fact. When my mother-in-law first got the cat, she was walking from her office to the car when a homeless woman stopped her and asked if she recently got a cat.

She said yes, and the woman said, "That's not a cat," and walked away.

Jordan Harbinger: Whoa. Okay. Wow. That, I watch a lot of horror movies, you know, just for kicks at night to relax. I don't know what to say, but this is straight out of one of those. So just to be clear, her mother-in-law wasn't holding the cat when this homeless woman walked up.

She was just walking to her car and the, the homeless woman's like, "Hey, did you just recently get a cat?" Like, "Yeah. Why?" "Well, that's not a cat." And then just continues on. Like, wait, it, it, this little, little oracle-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes ...

Jordan Harbinger: just tells you that your cat is some kind of demon and then shuffles off into the darkness.

That's just [00:09:00] terrifying.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Amazing story.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Th- like I said, this is straight out of one of those horror movies. A happy family adopts a cat who's actually like a reincarnated serial killer. It's like that movie Orphan. Except the orphan is a cat.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, and Ethan Hawke is in this movie for some reason, and he loves cats, so he's in a real pickle 15 years later, we are still dealing with this entity posing as an orange gato.

The main issue is that we have two very sweet, very cuddly cats that we will be bringing with us.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, yikes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: They are outdoor cats that spend most of their day running around the neighborhood. They make friends very easily. There are always random cats in our yard sunbathing with our two. Our neighbors have commented on how sweet our cats are.

So I have immense anxiety about bringing them into a home where this evil demon cat lives.

Jordan Harbinger: Something tells me Terrence the cat demon from the eighth circle of hell is not going to be pumped about sharing all of his cat toys and his space with a bunch of super chill kitties that like to bring friends over.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He also doesn't seem like much of a [00:10:00] sunbather. I'm just getting that vibe. He's an old cat and is probably sick and in pain, and that's why he's such an ass.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, I appreciate the empathy, but, you know, okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, it might not be the cat's fault, but it is his responsibility to address. Am I right?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

Good point. Take some accountability, bro.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But my mother-in-law refuses to even call the vet and have him checked.

Jordan Harbinger: That's not cool to anyone involved, including the cat. I mean, the cat could... is spraying everywhere. He could have kidney issues, could have a UTI. That's why he's all over the place. I mean, that's happened to our cats before.

So she just doesn't want bad news, and she's going to let the cat suffer with whatever because she doesn't want to deal with that? That's not okay at all.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She was a witness to him attacking her three-year-old grandchild on more occasions than I have seen myself. She even gets attacked in her sleep by this douchebag.

Ugh. My husband and his siblings have been trying to get this cat out of that house for months now. My mother-in-law will not budge, her reason being that she's not a murderer. We suggested that she give him to a [00:11:00] shelter or re-home him with someone she knows. She doesn't have to put him down, even though I personally think that's the best course of action given how aggressive he is.

But I also feel bad even suggesting she put him down given all the loss that she's gone through in recent months.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's tough and sad to think about, but come on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But I very selfishly don't want my cats' temperaments to change or for them to get attacked, and I don't want to live in fear that this guy's going to attack me from behind a corner if I need to pee in the middle of the night What would you do in this situation?

Should we set an ultimatum that we won't move in until he's out of there? Dark Jordan, my ears are open. Signed, trying to streamline our approach to making sure we're going to be fine and wondering if we need to draw a clean line when it comes to this demonic feline.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, boy. Well, first of all, congrats on mostly hitting the mother-in-law jackpot or- You know, she sounds great in every way except how she manages her demon cat.

No one's perfect, I suppose. I mean,

Gabriel Mizrahi: no one's perfect.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There... Always a flaw. It's also hard to know how to deal with, [00:12:00] uh, entities posing as animals.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm sure you guys moving in with her will really lift her spirits. Y'all are lucky to have one another, all except the satanic cat, of course. So this is a little tricky.

It's not your cat. It's not your home. It's really hard to tell your mother-in-law/landlord, "You have to get rid of the cat or we won't move in." It's an option, but it's just hard. At the same time, y'all are going to be housemates, and this is your husband's mom, so that gives you guys a little more influence over the situation.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, she should want the house to be safe for you and your kids and your cats, too.

Jordan Harbinger: Honestly, yes, I would have straightened this out before committing to moving in together. It's, feels like a deal breaker to me. But okay, you guys were excited. Maybe you didn't think about this until later, and here you are.

Now, I know your husband and his siblings have tried to get her to get rid of the cat. She won't even take it to the vet for a checkup because she's afraid they're going to be like, "Hey, there's a zillion things wrong with this cat and you've got to put it down." I agree that's sad and I have some compassion for her.

She's just gritting her teeth and ignoring this nightmare because the thought of having to euthanize this cat is too sad. But come on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But this [00:13:00] is a crazy way to live.

Jordan Harbinger: Crazy, bananas way to live. She's probably giving herself health problems by not getting a full night's sleep because the cat could just scratch your face off in the middle of the night.

But here's the thing, and I think this could be very useful. My understanding is that if you take a cat like this to the vet, most vets are not going to automatically jump straight to euthanasia.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, I think they're going to want to understand why the cat is acting like this first.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, they're probably going to want to try to prescribe medication, recommend some lifestyle changes or something.

I mean, one of our cats was spraying everywhere and going to the bathroom everywhere. It wasn't vicious or anything. But we were just like, "What's going on? This is new." We looked it up and it was like, oh, maybe there's a UTI. So the vet was like, "Yeah, that, that's actually usually what it is. Sometimes it's other things."

We took him to the vet and he had gnarly arthritis, which we kind of knew just by the way he was moving, and they gave him an arthritis shot and it helped a ton. And so there's not really the same problem at all and it's like a monthly shot, so 100 bucks or something I don't think most vets are looking for opportunities to put animals [00:14:00] down when there's another way to handle the situation.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, my understanding is that it's truly a last resort.

Jordan Harbinger: So I think it's a great opportunity for a conversation as a family. If this were my mother-in-law, I'd be like, "Hey, listen, I think we can all agree Terrance is a challenging cat. We know it's been sad and stressful to figure out what to do for him. We feel for you.

It's also very clear to us that he poses a real risk to our children, your grandkids, to us personally, and to our cats as well, and to you, frankly. I know you've gotten used to his antics, but it seems really hard for you, too, and in fact, we're pretty worried about how he's affecting your sleep, your mood, the general vibe around the house.

There's obviously something very wrong with this kitty, and he's probably in a lot of distress." Now We know you don't want to take him to the vet because you're worried about what they might say, but we looked into this and aggression in cats can come from a lot of things. Pain, illness, fear, territorial stress, cognitive decline, behavioral disorders.

If we take him to the vet, they'll take a detailed history, they'll look for medical causes, they'll try to figure out what's [00:15:00] causing it. They'll probably recommend medication or environmental changes, or they'll refer us to a veterinary behaviorist, which is a thing that I am surprised exists but apparently does.

They're not going to force us to put Terrance down. So we want to bring him to the vet, and we need you to work with us on this. This is absolutely the right thing to do for him, for you, for us, for everyone.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I love that. Great script. I hope she listens. It's hard to ignore that, right?

Jordan Harbinger: It is hard, yeah. A- and but look, the more family members you can get together to have this chat, I think, the better.

Your mother-in-law needs to see that everyone in the family feels this is a problem. She can't keep sweeping this under the rug. This is not just about, you know, making sure your kids don't get little boo-boos and your cats don't get into hissing matches. This is about making sure Terrance doesn't swipe at your kid and blind your child, or that your mother-in-law can get a good night's sleep, that your cats don't get disemboweled in the yard or g- get bitten a bunch in their face, and that Terrance himself doesn't have to suffer with whatever diseases or disorders that he has that are going untreated right now, which is actually kind of torturous.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally, and if they get this cat [00:16:00] treated, her mother-in-law might get to enjoy a whole new cat potentially. Terrance 2.0, you know? Very much not euthanized and also maybe not a demon anymore.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally. I would mention that. I would give her some hope for that timeline. As for setting an ultimatum, that's really up to you.

I can't tell you how much you should be willing to put up with. I can tell you that I would not move my family and pets into a house with a cat who might seriously injure one of us, especially my child, unless the cat was maybe sequestered to one room and the door was always closed and we never had to interact with it, which to me is not humane for the cat.

If you're asking, should we set an ultimatum to lean on my mother-in-law and get her to do what we want, I would say, yeah, that could be a good tactic. But if you do, you really have to be prepared to stand by it, because she might dig her heels in or kick the can down the road or say like, "I'll do it after you move in.

I just need some time." And if you're not prepared to say, "Okay, then we are not moving in right now," and you make other plans, she's never going to take Terrance to the vet. And honestly, that ultimatum is probably the best dark Jordan pitch I have. [00:17:00] The other ones go to a very dark place that I would never actually endorse.

I'm not going to tell you to poison your mother-in-law's cat. That's psycho. I would also never tell you to, you know, have it secretly catnapped or given up for adoption

Gabriel Mizrahi: You do realize the way you're saying it sounds like you're suggesting that that

Jordan Harbinger: is what you are? Won't someone rid me of this turbulent kitty?

Yes, um, that said, I do want to prepare you for the possibility that euthanasia might be a solution down the road, but based on what I've said, Gabe, I'm not saying euthanasia with a shovel. It doesn't have to be that bad, and based on what I've read, that's... Euthanasia really only happens when there are repeated severe attacks causing serious injury, or the cat is not getting better with treatment and is really suffering, or the cat doesn't get better with treatment, or the vet decides the cat is experiencing profound suffering or has a neurological disease, or it's living in constant terror or distress and just can't be safely handled or housed.

If that turns out to be the case, as much as I love pets, cats included, I have to agree with you that it might be the best outcome. I mean, people do [00:18:00] this with dogs who attack people. We had a dog that had a serious back problem. He was in pain all the time. We euthanized him. It was really sad, but sometimes it's necessary, and even then, I'm quite sure that euthanasia is considered a last resort.

It, it's probably not even necessary yet.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, you might want to tell your mother-in-law that in almost all cases, the owner gets to decide. The vet generally doesn't have the authority, as far as I know, to euthanize somebody's pet just because they're aggressive. So your mother-in-law will ultimately decide, and I would make sure that she understands that so she feels safe going to the vet and having a conversation with them.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I'm sorry that you're stressing about this. It's no small thing. This cat could be the difference between this chapter of life being super fun and sweet and being super stressful and scary, but I do think you can use this transition to force a necessary conversation, and I think you should. Gabe, I don't know about you.

I can't imagine being in a home with something like this because you have to watch every step. Every room you go into, is it going to pounce on me? You could never relax. You could never just sit in the living room and watch TV with your kids. You'd always have to be on the lookout for a literal [00:19:00] stalking cat that's going to jump on you, not in a cute way, and actually try to hurt you.

That's tot- and, and your child, so you're not only paying attention for yourself, you're paying attention for your kid 24 hours a day. That sounds like its own form of torture. I would just never do this to myself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But, you know, if all else fails, maybe you can track down that homeless woman and see if she'll come over and do, like, a home exorcism or something.

Maybe that woman has the answer. She seemed to know some stuff,

Jordan Harbinger: just saying. Yeah, that was, that is so creepy. Nice pitch. Yeah, I'm going to be thinking about that for weeks, by the way. I'm not a big believer in ESP or anything like that, but how that woman knew about the cat thing is really beyond me. Sending you and your family a big hug, and Terrance lots of feline serotonin, and wishing you all the best.

You know what'll cheer up your mother-in-law after you disappear her cat? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back

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It is your support of our advertisers that keeps us going. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: So about a month ago, we took a letter from a woman who was dating a younger man.

She had been through a lot of stuff in her life, fertility challenges, an abusive and troubled ex who tragically ended up taking his own life, some professional challenges, financial challenges. But then she found this relationship with this guy, which is apparently amazing in every conceivable way, as far as we could tell.

And her question was basically, "Should I stick with this guy or should I set him free so he can be with somebody with, you know, less baggage?"

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. This was the woman who was like, "I get why he's into me. I'm awesome, but maybe I should let him find someone even better."

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's the one. So [00:23:00] funny. Anyway, our take was you've been through a lot and you clearly have some stuff to work through, but basically take your boyfriend at his word when he says he wants to be with you and maybe don't blow up this amazing relationship just to spare him.

Jordan Harbinger: When that's probably your own anxiety and shame talking, yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. So she shared an update with us and it goes, "Hi guys. Thanks so much for the episode. I did feel like my relationship was celebrated and my problem was cared for and seen through your advice. I have to say, it had been a minute since I submitted that letter and I wrote it rather off the cuff, so listening to it induced a bit of cringe on my part, mostly because it's clear in the listening that I was not able to be really vulnerable about my history and my marriage and the impact that it has on my current relationship.

It's a fact that my partner and I are really happy together, affectionately connected to each other, and don't have very many problems in our dynamic. Those that do come up, we are committed to solving together. It's definitely a love worth celebrating."

Jordan Harbinger: Wonderful. I'm glad she knows that. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: You both were quite astute in picking up on the [00:24:00] financial aspects of my strife.

To give you a bit more context, my late husband did not work. He was a talented artist, but his mental health needs made it difficult for him to find financial success. I was happy to support this dream in the beginning, but as the years went on, he became more and more disconnected from the world of work."

And it wasn't healthy or helpful to him. I stayed for far too long in a dysfunctional relationship because he was financially dependent on me. And in the end, he only blamed me for it.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. So she felt responsible for her ex, and then he resented her for sticking around when he couldn't even hold down a job.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Seems to be the shape of it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, sounds like a troubled fellow, obviously given what happened. But maybe the most interesting thing about this is she also kind of feels responsible for her new boyfriend too, not financially, but emotionally.

Gabriel Mizrahi: In the sense that she's trying to get out ahead of any, like, theoretical problem he might have with her stuff and preemptively break up with him?

That's a good point.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, these might all be different forms of caretaking. It's just an interesting theme.

Gabriel Mizrahi: In some ways, my ex was [00:25:00] correct. I enabled his decline by removing the obstacles that all humans should face in adult life as part of personal growth: going to work when you don't want to, dealing with a shitty boss, negotiations on values and meaning as a daily practice.

I shielded him from all of that.

Jordan Harbinger: This is interesting. So this is where her guilt comes from, and part of it anyway. She feels she enabled him in spiraling and then tapping out.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which it's interesting. I mean, maybe she did, but does that make it her fault that he ended up where he ended up? I don't think so.

Jordan Harbinger: No. But again, not to put too fine a point on it, but is this yet another example of assuming too much responsibility for someone else?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Even as I grew and changed and became a leader, he began to shrink. Misogyny played a role in both of our self-esteems when the woman is the breadwinner. Though I am no longer religious, we met and married in a high control and patriarchal religion, and the fact that I made the money was deeply shameful.

He felt like less of a man, and I felt like I had to hide this fact [00:26:00] from our community.

Jordan Harbinger: Again, so fascinating. I've got to say, to be fair, I get why, as a man, it can be challenging to not earn as much or y- more than your wife. I'm not going to lie, I think it would be a little hard for me, too, just because of how society is structured and everything we're taught as kids.

What I don't understand is why, as a man, if you're married to a woman who's more successful than you financially and that bothers you, of course, for some people it's a non-issue, but if it does, I don't understand why you don't go, "I want to use this as inspiration and find a way to make as much as she does."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or I need to investigate why this is so hard for me and learn how to celebrate my wife, who's doing really well.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, rather than going, "Well, this makes me insecure. Don't tell anyone at church that you make more money than me. Also, I'm going to try and belittle you at every turn."

Gabriel Mizrahi: I totally agree, but like you said, the guy was confused and clearly unwell.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, for sure. I just feel bad that she was doing so well professionally and neither of them could fully enjoy it. She felt guilty for her success, and he felt diminished, instead of being proud and grateful. It's just-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Why?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, why?

Gabriel Mizrahi: One of the last [00:27:00] things my husband said to me before I left my marriage was that I would have to pay someone to be with me, just like I had to pay him.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, dang. Okay, this fricking guy. So my compassion for this dude is swiftly waning. He just sounds like an insecure dickhead. I know it's, you're not supposed to speak ill of the dead, but sometimes the dead were, you know, jerks.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I moved out after that, and he was dead six weeks later.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so he killed himself after they broke up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, this was kind of new information for me as well. Maybe I forgot this detail, but I thought it happened earlier.

Jordan Harbinger: I just assumed that as well. So, okay, I guess I'm kind of back to feeling somewhat bad for the guy. Obviously, he was in real trouble, and then when they broke up, that was, he just couldn't handle it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I just hate that she's the one left carrying the pain.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, sadly, that's often the case. I do hope in time, much easier said than done, but I do hope in time she learns to let go of that because we're hearing about a guy who had a responsibility to take care of himself and just wouldn't do it at all, and that's not her fault either.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Obviously, he was very ill, but I did love him once, and the fact that we [00:28:00] never got an opportunity to see each other thrive and build new lives despite the breakup will always be heartbreaking for me.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I understand.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel strongly now that in a partnership, both parties should prioritize financial independence.

I worry that bringing my debt into my current partnership would only damage both of us.

Jordan Harbinger: Again, very thoughtful of you. Don't disagree. Of course, that's up to you and your boyfriend to decide, and every couple's different, and, you know, that's fair, too.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Fortunately, I did have some recent financial successes, so I feel like I can be a more equal partner at the moment.

This has been such a weight lifted in all aspects of my life but has also freed me to enjoy this love more deeply. Jordan, I just want to say, I think in our response we said something along the lines of depending on your boyfriend financially seems to bring up some difficult stuff for you, so maybe it's worth looking at that.

But Equally, especially after reading this new letter, I appreciate how responsible she wants to be, and I think there's a good argument to be made for feeling like you're contributing fairly, whatever fairly means, [00:29:00] to your relationship so you can relax and enjoy without feeling these conflicts or guilt or entitlement or whatever is coming up because she isn't contributing the way she used to.

Jordan Harbinger: No, same here. Of course, what is fair and what's required to enjoy and what deserves guilt, all of those can change person to person, relationship to relationship. But I'm with you. I- if earning more and contributing more makes her feel better-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Do we necessarily need to say that's a problem? Maybe not

Jordan Harbinger: again, it just, yeah, it sounds mature and thoughtful.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe the right question is do you feel you need to contribute in some material way, like with money, in order to be deserving of this love? In which case, where does that come from, and is that actually true? Or do you feel deserving of this love and contributing equally financially is one way of, like, honoring the relationship and treating your partner well? Because those seem to me two different things.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, nice way to frame it, although maybe even the idea of what it means to honor their relationship kind of needs unpacking.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Fair point. Again, like you said, it's all up to them. Anyway, she wraps up, "We're moving in [00:30:00] together next month and are ready for all new adventures together with all the highs and lows of life.

Thank you again for your feedback and support. Signed, the now more confident cradle robber moving in with her gray boots knocker and no longer about to taut her about whether it's improper to choose this great guy if it means that he might not be a father."

Jordan Harbinger: Well, that's a happy ending.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Super sweet, no?

Jordan Harbinger: I'm super happy for them, not just that they're moving forward, but that they're moving for- well, she's moving forward anyway, very consciously, very thoughtfully. I liked them a lot before. I like them even more now. So did you just want to share her letter to share the good news or, or what?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. To share her good news, yes, because a few people wrote in and chimed in on the subreddit, and I know a lot of people were very invested.

Yeah. But also, I just wanted to take the opportunity to talk about a couple interesting things here. You already jumped on one of them, Jordan, this feeling responsible/caretaking thing. I think that's a really important parallel because her ex and her new boyfriend, these guys could not be more different, right?

Which is [00:31:00] great news. But maybe this template of overly assuming responsibility for them in different ways, that might be popping up again in a different form. And if so, that might be a good quality for her to keep an eye on as they move in together.

Jordan Harbinger: For sure, yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Closely related to that, actually, another listener shared some additional advice in that vein, and she put it better than I could, so why don't I just read her letter?

Jordan Harbinger: Awesome. Let's hear it. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe. When I heard the second letter on that recent Feedback Friday, I felt deeply invested. I, too, am a woman who was widowed by suicide after being the sole breadwinner and the main caretaker in the household. A little over a year later, I formed a friendship with a significantly younger man who has gone on to become my life partner of decades."

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, that's wild. What are the odds of that? I guess this is more common than we thought. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Your advice was well thought out and comprehensive, I thought. I also had some things I would like to pass on to your listener. I would reiterate the point that in a healthy relationship, which we know your last one was not, you have to trust your partner, believe what he is saying to you, as well as [00:32:00] his actions in being a good friend and partner to you Don't make decisions for him.

That's not love. That's control, whatever the lofty notions of protecting your partner from his own choices.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Wow. Damn, well put. I think you said something very similar, didn't you, Gabe?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think I said, are you fully trusting him when he says he wants to be with you?

Jordan Harbinger: Like, maybe don't try to manage him so much, even if it comes from a good place, and maybe that good place isn't always entirely good.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So she goes on, "Are you also protecting yourself from the potential for future pain if this relationship doesn't work out?"

Jordan Harbinger: 100%, or the potential for future pain if you find that you want different things in a few years.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which also depends in part on how much responsibility for him she actually assumes, which is very interesting.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, good point. It's like the only way to really trust what he's saying and showing her is to truly grant him the freedom to be with her because he wants to be.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, not because she's somehow making him or trapping him, right? Which means being fully honest with him, which I think she's already doing, about what she can and cannot offer him, which is great.

So this new listener [00:33:00] goes on, "And one thing I don't think was touched upon was the fact that you both give up some things to be in this relationship. He might be giving up parenthood or having a more financially secure partner. He gets to make that choice. And if he does, you have to manage, one, the fear of the possibility that he could change his mind, and two, the guilt that seems to come with feeling at least partly responsible for those losses."

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, I think you absolutely nailed it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You may have a visceral discomfort with feeling responsible, even partly, for someone else's emotional well-being in the aftermath of a damaging marriage and the suicide of your husband. I've got to say, um, now I'm speaking as myself, that is an interesting way to put it.

It might be more accurate to say that she's a little too comfortable, potentially, feeling responsible for another person's well-being, but now with a greater appreciation for the costs to her and her partner. So this listener goes on, "And that's what you may have to give up to be in this relationship, feeling responsible for someone else's [00:34:00] well-being and enjoying the freedom that comes with that.

There is no perfect relationship. There will always be compromises and discomfort somewhere. But if this relationship is as lovely as it sounds, it may well be worth the fears and discomfort that come up. And if things don't work out with you two, I know that you have the strength to move on."

Jordan Harbinger: That's also such a good point.

She has to have confidence in him to freely choose her, but she also needs confidence in herself to survive any potential heartbreak that might result from choosing him.

Gabriel Mizrahi: For sure. And is that grief that she might be trying to sidestep by prematurely breaking up with him? Maybe.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's amazing how often we come back to this idea.

Do you need to avoid pain or do you need to trust that you can bear it?

Gabriel Mizrahi: As someone who took a chance on something unlikely, I wish you all the peace and happiness in the world. You so deserve it. Signed A listener with a similar fella who heard our friend's letter and wanted to tell her that to enjoy this, she needs to quell her voice that wants to shelter from these feelings [00:35:00] that might upset her.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, what a sweet letter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I thought it was very insightful and very touching.

Jordan Harbinger: And I like that she did our job for us. That's kind of nice, too.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She kind of did. I thought so. And so I just wanted to share that because this is such an important thing that I am very much learning myself again and again, which is you just cannot manage other people's choices or reactions too much.

You just can't.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, it's harder for some than for others, isn't it?

Gabriel Mizrahi: It is. All informed by our personal histories, I suppose. Maybe it's enough for her to just notice that there's a part of her, because of this trauma with her husband, her past, her personality, whatever it is, that wants to do that. And to just bring more awareness to that whenever she's talking to her boyfriend or struggling to settle into this relationship or making a decision and just say, "Okay, maybe that's me trying to control him again for reasons that feel like love and kindness, but maybe are also about this other stuff.

Can I put that down for a moment and then just see what's what? Or can I acknowledge that I want to do that and then let him tell me what he actually wants and then listen?"

Jordan Harbinger: 100%, man. I do wonder if it's that simple. Complicated in that these patterns are hard to rewrite, I get [00:36:00] that. But simple in saying, "I see this quality more clearly now, so let me just play with a new way."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly. Which she already seems to be doing, I have to say. Deciding to move forward in this relationship and then also taking better care of herself financially, emotionally, it's very inspiring, honestly, to read about. But it seems to me that this is the courage not of overly engineering everything to minimize any pain, but enjoying all of this and accepting that the pain will be part of it.

And that is such a huge shift for a person who has this particular pattern.

Jordan Harbinger: Ready for all new adventures together with the highs and lows of life.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Congratulations, friend, and thank you other friend with an eerily similar story for chiming in. I think it's cool that this show creates a chance for y'all to talk to each other from a distance and share these experiences, which I thought were incredibly rare, but here you are with a very similar path, all learning and growing together, and I think it's truly awesome.

By the way, y'all, you can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole [00:37:00] lot easier. If you're trying to protect your kids from harm in a dangerous spiritual community, your partner's trauma-fueled rage fits are compromising your relationships and housing situation, or your sibling wants to cut your parents off from the pain they caused decades ago, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. But you know, trauma, especially relationship trauma, is fairly easy to get over. But you know what you would never get over? Missing out on the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Progressive.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: Hello, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a thirty-four-year-old woman from Mexico. I moved to New York six years ago, and I've been working as a mechanical engineer for the past three years.

Making friends here has been difficult. The only place I really socialize is at work, which can be challenging, especially since my entire team is male. Everyone has always been friendly, but I often feel a barrier I can't quite break through. Conversations flow differently when I'm involved, and while we're all married, I can't help but feel that being a woman plays a role.

Over time, I made a conscious effort to build connections with each of my teammates. [00:40:00] We're all awkward, nerdy engineers in our own ways. Max became my closest friend, and I've even developed a friendship with his partner. We support each other through projects, roadblocks, and personal life events. Adam and I bonded over Formula One and food.

He often asks me for Mexican recipes. Brian is hilarious. He loves South Park, and we exchange silly reels and work-related GIFs. Tom and I connected over our shared love of Harry Potter. Joe is extremely quiet. Our interactions are strictly work-related. And then there's Bob. Bob is shy and socially awkward.

At first, I didn't particularly like him. He often gave unsolicited advice and came across as overly righteous. He used to be a serious runner, and when I told him that I signed up for a half marathon, he began offering tips and encouragement. That's how we started talking more. A few weeks into training, I experienced exercise-induced anxiety, where my body misinterpreted normal physical reactions, like a fast heartbeat, as [00:41:00] danger.

I mentioned this to Bob, and he shared that he struggles with anxiety as well. He recommended a book that I had actually read years ago during a difficult period with my own anxiety. That opened the door to deeper conversations about mental health and life struggles. Through those discussions, I realized Bob and I were surprisingly similar, and that he was funny too.

For the first time, I truly felt connected at work. These weren't just superficial conversations anymore, and that made me feel more confident and grounded Then two weeks ago, our team attended a conference in the city. Max, Bob, and I walked around the city, grabbed food and drinks, and headed home the same day.

It felt normal, professional, and enjoyable. The next day, Bob asked me if my husband had gotten jealous.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy, here we go.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was caught off guard. I said, "No. Why would he?" It was a work outing with colleagues I considered friends.

Jordan Harbinger: Classic mistake. Everyone knows you can't just go out and enjoy an afternoon with your [00:42:00] female colleague without her being totally in love with you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Bob then explained that his wife had been extremely jealous and checked his location all day. I replied by saying I understood jealousy because I had felt that way myself in the past. I asked him if he had talked to his wife and reassured her. He told me she didn't even know what I looked like and that it was all in her head.

I empathized, having been the jealous one before. I shared a personal story about my husband and a female coworker visiting from Europe, how I initially felt insecure until I met her, realized my fears were unfounded, and eventually became close friends with her.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. Well, okay, nice that you were able to do that.

I feel like a lot of people can't.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The next day, I told Max about Bob's wife being jealous. We both agreed Bob didn't seem capable of doing anything inappropriate and that the concern seemed misplaced. Uh, Bob.

And then that Friday, Max had to leave early for a doctor's appointment, so I joined Bob for [00:43:00] lunch, and he opened up about a serious conversation he had had with his wife. He shared that he had lost his sense of self over the past three years, felt deeply unhappy, and was dealing with depression and anxiety.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, poor guy, and now he's hanging with you and feeling things again, and he's like, "I'm in love with you." You hate to see it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I listened, offered empathy, and shared relatable experiences. Time flew by, and after over an hour, I said I needed to leave. As we walked across campus, Bob stopped me and said there was something else he wanted to discuss.

No.

Jordan Harbinger: No thank you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He said we'd become friends and asked if I agreed. I said yes. Then he shared that the past few weeks had been eye-opening, that he felt we connected deeply, that we were very similar, and asked if I felt the same way. I was shocked. When he clarified that he felt attracted to me, I immediately shut it down.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I love that he had to clarify that he had a massive crush on her. Like, after this whole monologue, he [00:44:00] still had to be like, "Just to be clear, I'm super into you and I want to get into those pantalones."

Gabriel Mizrahi: I reminded him that we are both married and asked what had made him think that I felt the same. He said it was because I was kind and wanted to connect.

I explained that this is simply who I am with everyone at work.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so pause for a second. I just, I find this problem so interesting/exasperating. This is something so many women talk about, and I completely get it, how men interpret even basic kindness as flirting. And I kind of get it. I think that women sometimes don't fully appreciate that we're generally not used to women being super nice and approachable, which to be fair to women might say more about a lot of men, frankly.

And so it can be hard to interpret the signals when a woman is actually kind. And maybe there's an argument to be made for women being a little clearer in communicating their kindness, although, ugh, I don't know. I'm not sure it's really on them to do that Equally true is that men need to be better at deciphering signals [00:45:00] and really making sure that a woman is actually freaking flirting before you tell her that you have a massive crush on her and you want to leave your wife or something.

Come on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Especially in a work setting.

Jordan Harbinger: Especially when both parties are, yes, working together and married. God, geez, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The stakes are, are high and he just threw it out there.

Jordan Harbinger: At the same time, though, I think we men really need to understand that a woman's kindness, having fun with her, laughing, that just does not automatically equal, "Hey, she's so into you, bro," or even that you should be into her.

There's a whole other awesome arrangement with this and it's called friendship, okay? And I get it, the heart wants what the heart wants, but some of these people be Lulu.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But also the heart needs to make sure it's wanting the right things.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, for both of your sakes, and so you don't then create a situation where a woman has to be like, "Uh, okay, let me un-this situation for both of us, you bonehead."

Gabriel Mizrahi: I told him with as much empathy as I could that he wasn't attracted to me, but to the connection, understanding, and emotional openness I brought [00:46:00] into his life.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a nice way to put it. I know that's not easy, but that was the right thing to do.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree, although I do kind of find this funny. She's like, "You're not attracted to me.

You're attracted to the amazing connection, understanding, and emotional openness that I made possible because I am amazing."

Jordan Harbinger: And hot. But yes, um, so like I know I'm hot and amazing, but you're not attracted to me. You just, you,

Gabriel Mizrahi: uh- It's not me. It's just what's happening between us.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah. Bob heard that and went, "Yeah, I said that.

I'm super into you." Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, I get what she's saying. She's not wrong. I'm just laughing at how he must have heard that. For sure. So she goes on, "I explained that this likely highlighted something missing in his marriage and that it was something he needed to address with his wife, not with me. I asked him to reflect honestly on what outcome he had expected and what that would've meant for both of us."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Well played, hermana. Kudos to you. That's not, this is, must've been hella awkward.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We went our separate ways. That evening I told my husband everything. He was calm, trusted me completely, and suggested that I keep some distance from Bob going forward. [00:47:00] On Monday, Bob sent me several messages on Teams.

Jordan Harbinger: No, don't, don't do it, Bob.

I mean, he did it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hola, amiga. Oh shit, I'm already making this weird, aren't I?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I just wanted to say sorry for dropping that on you last week, and sorry if it made you uncomfortable.

Jordan Harbinger: Fair enough. That might be him owning what happened and trying to make things right as best he can.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. You're right, I might not have done that on Teams, but-

Jordan Harbinger: No

Gabriel Mizrahi: that might have been a step in the right direction.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that does not feel like a Slack conversation. Maybe do that at the coffee bean off campus.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The least sexy coffee bean you can find in the vicinity. I

Jordan Harbinger: kind of feel like all coffee beans are pretty asexual.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And now, today, Bob was out of the office. I wasn't sure if his absence was related to the situation or if his mental health has worsened.

I'm unsure how to move forward or how to handle future interactions. What's the healthiest way to reset professional boundaries after a coworker crosses an emotional line, especially when you still have to see them every day? Signed, an engineer [00:48:00] trying not to fumble this bundle of professional bungles after I stumbled into a bit of trouble with a colleague who got things jumbled.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Um, clearly you have to bang Bob and just get it out of the system. Uh, no, do not do that .

Gabriel Mizrahi: Done. Let's move right on. Rec of the week, baby.

Jordan Harbinger: Uh, yeah, office romance. Highly recommended. No, uh, first of all, big ups to you for moving from Mexico to New York City, landing a job as an engineer, speaking such strong English.

Really impressive.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Unbelievable. Absolutely incredible.

Jordan Harbinger: What a journey you must be on. That is no small feat.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have to say, this is neither here nor there, but I did not fully appreciate how hard it is to move to another country until I started traveling this year, and now I'm like anybody who moves to another country and even remotely succeeds is a hero.

And I'm not even moving to these countries that I visit, and it's hard, so I can't even imagine what it's like for an actual immigrant. It's wild.

Jordan Harbinger: It's true. You know, when I was younger, I... When I was in law school, I remember telling people, like, "Oh, yeah, I moved to Germany as an exchange student, and then when I was [00:49:00] in c- undergrad I moved to Israel for a while, and then I went to Ukraine.

I lived in Mexico." And people were like, "For how long? A week?" And I was like, "No, I stayed for, like, a year or a m- you know, I went to Yugoslavia." And they were just like, "By yourself? You just went there?" And I remember thinking, "Yeah, it's not that big of a deal," but then you realize that it really is a big deal to move somewhere, rent an apartment, start learning the language, and, and like I had in Yugoslavia, I had a job.

I look even now at age 46, and I go, "Who was that responsible young man? I'm not that person anymore." I'm still not that person, and I'm 46. I would never do that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It was that highly responsible, reckless young man-

Jordan Harbinger: Yes ...

Gabriel Mizrahi: who moved to the Balkan state.

Jordan Harbinger: Just did not appreciate the work this was going to take to do at the time and th- the risk involved and just did it anyway.

That w- it was mostly ignorance.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's the real powder keg.

Jordan Harbinger: It mostly was ignorance that got me through all of that. So I get it. But moving to the States, especially New York, it just doesn't get any more intense than that, and you have a real career. You're not working as an English teacher at a school in Belgrade.

Also, she said making friends in New York has been difficult. That's a huge [00:50:00] part of the challenge, too, being able to connect with people from a different culture, having to speak a language that isn't your native tongue. Plus, there's this whole layer of being a woman at your company, and I'm sorry that that's been challenging, but yeah, I, I commend you for all of it.

Interesting situation with Bob. I know we're giving him a bit of a hard time. Maybe he kind of deserves it. But to be fair, if you're in an unhappy marriage and you meet someone awesome and you really connect but you misread all the signals because you're a guy who's been married for 20 years and you work with this person and then you put your foot in your mouth, that is tough and I'm just certain that it's really embarrassing.

So I feel for the guy in that respect. He doesn't seem like he's a weirdo or a creep. He's just totally not reading the room and just keeps making it worse. But I do think that we dudes, especially at work, like we were just saying, it behooves us to be very thoughtful with ye olde feelings.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Behooves.

Behooves, no less.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Oh, you're going to give me crap for behooves, Mr. $5 Word When a 50 Cent Word Will Do?

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, [00:51:00] I, I love it. I just wasn't expecting you to say behooves in the middle

Jordan Harbinger: of a segment. Oh, I love a good behooves.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I know. Behoove slaps, let's be real.

Jordan Harbinger: It does. The verbal equivalent of me putting on a top hat and doing a little jig.

A little, little Mr. Peanut jig

Gabriel Mizrahi: Whenever I hear the word behooves, I always picture the person vacuuming, and that is the image that I have of you right now, giving Bob advice while you're just doing some light housework.

Jordan Harbinger: That is behoovering. That's what I'm doing right now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's not a bad metaphor, actually, for Feedback Friday now that I think about it.

Jordan Harbinger: Now we're cleaning up a l- a lot of dirt, a lot of Bob's dirt.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But with one of those vacuums that have the clear tube so you can see how much dirt you're picking up. You know what I mean?

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my gosh, yeah, those ... Straight into my veins. You get that satisfaction- Yes. ... of vacuuming something. You see it swirling around rapidly in there, and you ge- you're like, "I got it."

Anyway, um, that ... We're probably outing ourselves as a little bit mentally ill right now. We

Gabriel Mizrahi: told Bob that he needs to act right.

Jordan Harbinger: Hey, Bob. Stay on point. Act right. Get a vac- Get one of those Dysons and just stare at that for hours until the battery runs out. Yeah, I do think we need to be thoughtful about this kind of thing because as Bob is finding out, man, if you catch feelings for a [00:52:00] coworker and it's not mutch, it gets awkward as hell, and could, depending on the workplace, actually become a real problem.

Like, how did you think this was going to go? Did he bother to find out if she's in a happy marriage? Did he try to read the signs there? It sounds like he just assumed she wasn't because they connected well. Or did bro just j- jump straight to, "Well, we talked about our mothers, so you must be attracted to me, too, and hey, that's all that matters here"?

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's funny because he's an engineer, so you'd think he would be at least be curious to understand the problem before jumping to the solution, but

Jordan Harbinger: I guess not. Yeah, but they're mechanical engineers, Gabe. It's a different breed, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was thinking electrical, my bad.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, I'm not sure how much this is on you to fix.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I agree with that. This feels like a Bob job to me.

Jordan Harbinger: It's a Bob job for sure. He put his foot in it. He miscalculated. Fine. It happens. Now it's up to him to say, "Hey, I'm sorry for misreading the signs. I can see you don't feel the same way. I deeply apologize for putting you in a weird position. I'm going to back up and make sure everything's just a-okay between us at work."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Honestly, not the [00:53:00] worst thing in the world. It happens.

Jordan Harbinger: I feel like you can totally move on from this and be okay. He didn't try ... He didn't corner you in the break room or anything weird. I mean, I know it's harder for some people than others to just move on from stuff, maybe harder for m- maybe for guys in general.

A lot of us are just not used to being vulnerable like that at all, and it can be humiliating when that goes wrong. But when you misstep and it affects a colleague, this is not a random person he met on Tinder where the stakes are nil and you, y- I mean, he has to own this and make it right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I agree with that.

And if he doesn't, then what?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, if he doesn't, then I'd say she either lets it go and keeps her distance and tolerates the awkwardness for a while, which that would probably fade in time, I would hope. Or if things continue being weird and he's just making no effort to repair things or he, like, keeps trying, she can grab coffee with him and say, "Look, I'm sorry that our wires got crossed.

I'm sorry if I inadvertently sent you a confusing signal. I enjoy being your colleague and friend. I want to be able to hang with you and Max and all the guys, but I'm married. So are you. And as [00:54:00] you know now, I think of you as a friend, and I've come to value that friendship. So when you're ready, I'd like to go back to being friends."

Gabriel Mizrahi: I like that. Or maybe that's not possible anymore, or maybe that's not what she wants, and then maybe she just leaves it at, "So I know this was uncomfortable, but nothing has to change in our working relationship," and just leave it at that.

Jordan Harbinger: I like that. Then she's just speaking for herself and putting the focus back on them as colleagues, and hopefully he'll also finally realize that he needs to be mature so that they can function well at work.

But you're asking how to reset professional boundaries after Bob crossed a line, so I guess my question for you is, do you think this relationship requires strict boundaries in order to be safe, or did Bob get the message he's just not going to try anything like this again? Because that's totally possible.

You might not even need to say, "Hey, look, pal, I'm married. We're colleagues. We can only see each other in these places, and we can only talk about such and such, and I'm only going to respond to you on Teams or whatever." Maybe he's taking a little space. When he comes back to work, it'll be awkward. It doesn't have to be messy.

But if Bob continues to flirt with you or he keeps looking at you a certain way [00:55:00] or you just get that vibe that he's having a different experience from you when you're talking, then a boundaries conversation would be in order. A- and on your end, you can keep being kind, maybe not quite as kind as before, but polite, pleasant.

You can be professional. Don't make things weird. I don't think it's you doing that, by the way. But you could just hang back a little and let things settle. Until he does something egregious, I think that's all that you really need to do.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree, and that'll also show Bob that you're not going to punish him for this, which might make it easier for him to apologize and make things right and get back to where you were.

I think that's important, too.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. No need to overcorrect until things prove to be messier. Then it's a different conversation. Sorry things went down this way. Like I said before, I'm sorry that women have to worry that being kind is a liability. That just, that sucks. But sadly, this is all part of the dance between the genders.

Keep up the great work, and welcome to America. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for the show if you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about episodes of the show in general. It's over on the Jordan [00:56:00] Harbinger subreddit. And now it behooves you to take advantage of the amazing deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back

Hey, if you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Take a moment, support the sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. If something's not working for you or you can't find something, email us: Jordan@jordanharbinger.com.

We're happy to dig up those codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, for the rest of Feedback Friday Now we got the recommendation of the week. I am

JHS Trailer: addicted to lip filler.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My recommendation of the week is the best earplugs I have ever found in my life.

They're by a brand called Mighty Plugs. They're not the kind of earplug that looks like a small bullet and that you insert into your ear. These are the kind of earplugs that mold to the inside of your ear like putty. They're made [00:57:00] of pure beeswax and organic cotton, so they feel good. That makes them also much more secure.

They don't fall out during the night. They're also way more comfortable, so you can move around and sleep on your side and stuff like that, and you're not going to feel them. They apparently have the certified highest noise reduction rating for earplugs. They're also waterproof, so you can use them for swimming, surfing, snorkeling, all of that.

They're reusable, they are all-natural, they're chemical free, and each pair lasts up to apparently 35 uses. I think I've gone above that, actually. You could probably get even more out of them if you wanted to. This was another product that I discovered for Burning Man because it's so loud there and the sound goes all night.

It just does not stop, so it's hard to sleep. And a guy I know who goes every year was like, "These are the earplugs that you want so you can at least get some rest." So I bought them and they worked so well that I just kept using them, and now I take them everywhere I go when I travel. And this is actually one of the reasons I can stay in a noisy hostel and still get a good night's sleep.

Big fan of this product, Mighty Plugs. We'll link to them in the [00:58:00] show notes.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, next up. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I can't start this letter without sharing some love for you both and the podcast. I'm a longtime listener and first-time writer, and I want to thank you for all of the wonderful perspectives this show has given me.

I will try to not talk about how cool y'all are to me too much, but some of this is relevant to my letter today, so if this is being aired, listeners, bear with me."

Jordan Harbinger: I'm glad you said that. Otherwise, I would've been like, "Oh God, people must think we're fluffing ourselves so hard right now." "

Gabriel Mizrahi: The way you guys approach problems with empathy and nuance is something I find incredibly rare for a man.

You two are among the few men whose perspective I actually respect and enjoy. I'm writing because I'm terrified that I'm teetering on the edge of losing hope in the rest of your gender entirely.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, no pressure.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm a 25-year-old medical student in the Midwest. I've overcome a lot to get here. A low income background, a type 1 diabetes diagnosis, and a mother struggling with severe mental illness.

[00:59:00] Statistically, I should not be this far, but I continue to surprise myself and am so fulfilled and in love with what I get to do.

Jordan Harbinger: That is amazing. Wow, well done. Huge deal, by the way. Huge.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My view of men has been shaped by a vacuum of positive examples. My father committed suicide at the age of 19 when I was just 14 months old.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, I'm very sorry to hear that. That is so sad.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My mother was 19 and pregnant with my sister, and she was the one who found him.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God, I can't even imagine. Your poor mom.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She has never healed from that trauma, and as a result, our house became a revolving door of men who got worse and worse, from drug addicts to abusers to both in one, and many things in between.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, what a childhood that must have been. That is, that's really tough.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have two sisters who are my entire world, and watching us all grow up in that environment, I realized I don't have a single example of a, quote-unquote, good man in my life. The [01:00:00] few people I can identify are not very close to me. I think of an uncle or two I see a few times a year, maybe one of my grandfathers, but his ex-wife, my grandma, has been a lesbian since their divorce.

So even then, I just have low confidence.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I don't know why that makes me chuckle a little. I'm just imagining this 88-year-old woman who's like, "I'm done with men. Time to be gay."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Lately, staying informed has turned my skepticism into something stronger and deeper. Between the Epstein files and the normalization of predatory rhetoric, it feels like we're shown what men do when they have unlimited power.

To say that I'm angry feels like an understatement, and rightfully so. I've read studies suggesting one in three college-aged men admit that they would use force to have sex if they knew they could get away with it. Even more horrifying, as someone entering the medical field, I've seen the data showing that homicide is a leading cause of death for pregnant women in the US, often outranking medical complications like sepsis or hemorrhage.[01:01:00]

I don't think I even need to say this, but for the sake of completeness, this is due to intimate partner violence more often than not.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, pause, Gabe. You said you looked into this, because I, I, I don't know about any of this stuff.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. So real quick, the one in three college-aged men claim, that seems to come from a 2014 study called Denying Rape but Endorsing Forceful Intercourse.

So that study, which built on earlier studies, found that some men endorsed behaviorally described coercive sex, but then would also deny that they would, quote-unquote, "rape someone." So the study was actually about the differences between these men and what might account for this difference. Also, I'm not a researcher, but this seems to be a small, non-national college sample, so maybe it would be more accurate to say one study found, not one in three men in general everywhere for sure feel this way.

Jordan Harbinger: Got it. Interesting. So not slam dunk proof, but I don't know, still pretty disturbing, man. I'm g- we ... I'm not sure how we get around that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The claim about the threats to pregnant women, that is substantially correct. Basically, researchers at [01:02:00] the Harvard School of Public Health found that homicide deaths among pregnant women are more prevalent than deaths from hypertensive disorders, hemorrhage, sepsis, and that these homicides are linked to a mix of intimate partner violence and firearms.

Jordan Harbinger: God, that's news to me, man. Je- I mean, Jen almost killed me when she was pregnant, but that was because I was- ... you know, chewing too loud, so it's, it was, it would've been justified.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Different. Yeah. Different, different. And by the way, that seems to be backed up by a summary in Society for Maternal-Fetal Medicine of CDC data from 2005 to 2022, which found that homicide and suicide together exceeded any individual medical cause of maternal death.

Jordan Harbinger: That's 17 years of data. I mean, that's, that says a lot.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Her last point about intimate partner violence, that is directionally correct. But again, maybe it should be worded a little more carefully. It seems that the research out there repeatedly links pregnancy-associated homicide to intimate partner violence, yes.

But her claim about more often than not, that might depend on the quality of the [01:03:00] data, because apparently, and I'm relying on other people's analysis here, but apparently the relationship of the perpetrator to the victim is often missing or inconsistently recorded, and that's a common criticism of this study.

Jordan Harbinger: I see. So the first statistic, compelling but maybe not totally representative, not definitive. The second point-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Appears to be pretty solid. And so her fear does make a lot of sense. So she goes on. "Now, I know the most common thing to say here is, 'Hey, crazy 20-something extreme feminist, it's not all men.

Some of us are good.' This is not good enough for me. Nationwide data from NPR and the National Sexual Violence Resource Center indicate that 81% of women report experiencing some form of sexual harassment and/or assault in their lifetime." So if not all men are bad, how are almost all women experiencing some level of violence?

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, it didn't say that, right? It didn't say violence. It said sexual harassment or violence. I'm not trying to nitpick here. And again, I'm no statistician, but I'm [01:04:00] quite sure you know that that doesn't mean that 81% of men out there are monsters. That's 81% of women report that. That's to- a totally different thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or that only 19% of women, for example, have ever met a good guy in their lives.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's just not how stats work. Also, the men who do this kind of thing, I'm going to go out on a limb and say they do it to more than one person. But again, Gabe, you fact-checked this or you looked into this?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. So again, really quickly, a widely cited 2018 survey, it was commissioned by Stop Street Harassment.

It was carried out by UC San Diego, and then it was summarized by the National Sexual Violence Resource Center. This did find that nationwide 81% of women, and by the way 43% of men, reported experiencing some form of sexual harassment and/or assault in their lifetime. But it might be good to note that the original survey defined sexual harassment and/or assault broadly, and that included verbal harassment, unwanted touching/groping, flashing, stalking/following, [01:05:00] cyber harassment, and actual sexual assault.

Jordan Harbinger: Got it. Which many people, including I imagine our friend here, would say, uh, yeah, that's all harassment/abuse. Anything from being minorly catcalled on the street to, you know, literal physical abuse.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I just want to be clear about how the study defined harassment and assault. I don't know how much that number would change if you, for example, left out verbal harassment, which might include, say, being unwantedly hit on at a party or something like that or, or, you know, being sent a suggestive message on social media or something along those lines.

I'm speculating a little bit, but I think you know what I'm getting at.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and that's good to call out because I would say that if it's getting an unsolicited flirty message on Instagram or whatever, I'm surprised it's not 100% of women having had that at some point in their life.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So she continues, "As I explore this statistic in my own experience, almost all of the women I know fall into that 81%, yet not a single man I have encountered knows a man at fault."

I question which is more likely. Is it just a few men [01:06:00] whom apparently no one knows on a rampage making contact with all these women? Or are you all complacent?

Jordan Harbinger: Complacent?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Complacent. I don't know if she meant complicit or complacent.

Jordan Harbinger: It sounds like, I th- I think she probably must have meant complicit, no?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think so. Or maybe she's saying that we are all complacent as men with the status quo.

Jordan Harbinger: Of men doing this to women and then just not doing anything or saying anything about it?

Gabriel Mizrahi: She must have meant complicit, right? Like, is it just a few men or are you all doing creepy stuff to some degree or overlooking it?

Jordan Harbinger: It's an intense letter, man. I haven't done anything wrong, but, well, recently. But somehow I feel like I'm on trial or something. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: When I was in middle school, the boys created Ass Slap Fridays. Every girl wearing leggings was targeted. Not all men participated, but they all knew, watched, and remained complacent.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, okay. Oh, so maybe she did mean complacent. I'm confused, but I, I think I understand what she's getting at. They didn't speak up or do anything about it is what she's saying. And, and look, I take her point here. Halfway through my [01:07:00] 40s and as the father of a little girl, not that having a daughter should be the only reason I see this clearly, but obviously it makes me more sensitive to it.

When I hear about Ass Slap Fridays in a middle school, my heart sinks. Whereas if this happened at my school when I was 11 or 12, I don't know, I probably would have just shrugged it off. I was a little kid back then, you know? But she's right. This is a problem.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, at the very least, the boys' asses should have been slapped too, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: I agree. Everybody should have been harassed. Equality. That's right. But seriously, I get why this pisses her off. I get why this shapes how women view men and how they view the world. And maybe this is besides the point, but I also think it's a little unfair to say not all men participated, but they all watched when we're talking about 12 and 13-year-old kids.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Literal 12-year- old middle schoolers, yeah. Unless she was referring to, like, older kids on campus or, God forbid, the teachers or something, but I- no.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I doubt she meant that. That would be a whole different problem. Holy moly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I struggle to find any reasoning for this, and my rage blames the patriarchy, [01:08:00] which helps.

I have to believe that men behave this way because they are also victims of the corruption. It feels like the patriarchal narrative has failed everyone. Women don't need men for survival anymore, and given the stats on violence, many of us don't even want them.

Jordan Harbinger: So much to say about these arguments. We could be here all day.

But I've got to say, the idea that the patriarchy, which is a f- word I'd never use, uh, it almost sounds funny coming out of my mouth, that broadly speaking, I know it's a slippery concept, but I think we all know what it means. The, th- the point that it's also created some problems for men is a very fair one.

She is not entirely wrong. But honestly, I haven't done enough annoying PhDs to meaningfully comment on this topic really.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The thing is, I've always dreamed of being a mother. It's something I've wanted more than anything else But I question the morality of this desire, let alone whether I will ever be in a safe enough relationship.

God forbid I bring a daughter into this mess, and God help me if I have to raise a son. I have two baby cousins, both [01:09:00] boys under a year old, and I love them so deeply. This makes me even sadder about how I feel I hope that there is something to all this horror that I am missing. Since I value your judgment, I'm asking for a perspective that can give me even a pea-sized bit of hope.

Jordan Harbinger: Again, you're laying all this at our feet? My God. I'm more nervous to answer this letter than I was about that Buddhist sexual assault letter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which by the way, we got some emails about him. A lot of people were like, "Yeah, that guy was kind of out of his tree- Yeah ... but also a very powerful teacher, and we shouldn't write off the whole organization."

So I'm pretty sure we pissed off a lot of Buddhists- Cool ... by talking about some of that stuff. Cool, cool. But anyway, yeah, this is somehow scarier. But I agree with you, this one's even more intense. Have you stayed quiet when inappropriate comments were made?

Jordan Harbinger: In my life? Almost certainly yes. I can't think of anything, uh, uh, certainly not anything horrendous, but I'm sure that it's happened.

Lately, though, like in the past 15 years, I can't think of any examples. In fact, there, I've g- my friends are the guys that say, "Hey, you know what? I don't [01:10:00] really ascribe to that kind of stuff, and I don't think it's helping you either," when we hear that at the gym. A lot of guys have thanked me for saying that, because they don't actually believe things that they say when they say it, too.

They're just trying to relate to dudes. So yeah, I kind of p- I would say I almost kind of police it in a way that's not overly pushy or annoying, in my opinion.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I can't think of anything in my own life either. I guess I'd have to say the same.

Jordan Harbinger: I also feel like maybe I'm deluding myself, but I feel like if you don't engage in this stuff yourself, you're just way less likely to be around guys who do.

I know they exist. Of course they do. I use the internet. But I'm not grabbing beers with guys like this or doing a ton of business with them, at least not when they're in this mode.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also think, oh, man, this is going to sound like an apology or a hedge. It's not. But I also think we're kind of back to the question of how do we define inappropriate, you know?

I remember on my first project, on my first job out of college, I was 21, I guess. The client was in San Diego, so I would drive down from LA on Monday morning and I would drive back Thursday night, and I would often drive with this other guy who was in my class. [01:11:00] And he's like, "Man, Jill is so hot." And Jill was a manager on the project, and she was probably, like, I don't know, she must've been at least 30, maybe 35.

She wasn't our direct manager, but she was, you know, like a senior person on the team. And I got kind of uncomfortable, and I was like, "Yeah, no, she's definitely an attractive person," because I was nervous to talk about it, even just us boys in the car. And this guy I was driving with kind of got mad at me for it.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah, like, "Why are you being weird about this? Why are you making it weird?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: Basically. Yeah. Actually, I think he imitated me. He was like, "Yes, Jill is very attractive. Just say she's hot, dude." Like, he kind of got angry.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Why are you being such a square, Gabe?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, like, now I feel like a creep.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, I think that's the fear, that he felt a little uncomfortable and exposed because you were not joining in and making it safe for him to talk about that stuff.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which I get. You know, maybe he felt judged by me or like I was trying to be superior, which was not my intention But also, you know, I've got to know this guy and he did not strike me as a creep at all. He was just, like, talking.

Jordan Harbinger: For sure. But there's a social pressure [01:12:00] baked into these moments that's tricky, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: It is tricky. And thinking back, I guess I, I didn't want to talk about it because in my mind I was like, I just met this guy. I don't know if he's going to tell someone else about this conversation and then somehow it gets back to Jill, whom I like, and then it's weird or it gets misconstrued so I'm just going to be quiet.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That is smart.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But also, I don't know, maybe I am a little bit of a square in this way because I guess I was thinking Jill is cool and she's smart and she's good at this job and she's nice and I feel weird only talking about how hot she is with a total stranger. So I kind of feel weird only talking about how hot she is with a guy I met, like, a week ago.

So anyway, the reason I bring this up is, is what that guy said in the car inappropriate?

Jordan Harbinger: Good question. I, well, I feel like we're rehashing the entire 2016 presidential election- Yeah ... right

Gabriel Mizrahi: now somehow. I know. Is this locker room talk? Is this management consultant carpool talk?

Jordan Harbinger: Grab him by the Pricewaterhouse.

Yeah, I don't, I don't know, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. Just like I'm, I'm just trying to understand. Was this guy saying Jill is so hot hurting [01:13:00] women or hurting her?

Jordan Harbinger: My feeling is if this is locker room talk, this is extremely innocuous locker room talk. I don't think it screams patriarchy to be like, "Man, sometimes Jill makes me nervous in meetings."

I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. Yeah. I agree with that. And I mean, women talk about guys like this too, so like I'm not even sure this is patriarchy.

Jordan Harbinger: Of course they do and they're allowed to, maybe with different implications in the workplace which again this is where it gets tricky and I get that. But I'm glad you're digging into this, uh, because our friend is asking if we, we paragons of healthy masculinity apparently, if we've ever stayed quiet when inappropriate comments were made.

Depending on how you define that, you already up in that car ride, Gabe. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. Like was I supposed to turn to this guy and be like, "Well, guy in my class I just met and whom I also would like to have a decent relationship with, that's not really appropriate talk when it's just us alone in the car and you should really be thinking about..."

Like that's also weird and presumptuous, but that's what I'm getting at. I'm just trying to understand. I mean,

Jordan Harbinger: to be fair, maybe our friend w- here wouldn't actually consider that inappropriate because Jill [01:14:00] wasn't there. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, I get it, but I know some people would consider that inappropriate.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, saying it at work or like going to Jill at the work dinner and being like, "Hey girl," I mean that's a-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Obviously different story completely.

Jordan Harbinger: Of course. Of course. But now we're into a whole other discussion which is whether words can be harmful and in what context and how to separate them from actions and personal beliefs and all that. Again, whole other show, not enough PhDs to qualify me for that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: All right. Let's get this back on track, shall we?

So she goes on, "Have you seen a friend or acquaintance with a girl who couldn't consent?"

Jordan Harbinger: Oof. No. You mean like having sex with a drunk person who's passed out? No, I have not.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. Or forcing them to do something, no.

Jordan Harbinger: No. Yeah. I- Definitely not. That's insane to me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Never myself.

Jordan Harbinger: Has it happened in my environment and I didn't know about it?

It's possible. I worked on Wall Street in the early 2000s. I'm sure some coked up lawyer crossed a line with a woman at drinks after work or something. I mean, people were hooking up in our class and stuff. It ha- it happens all the time. I, you know, I was doing the dating coach thing for a few years. Did I go to bars in LA and [01:15:00] New York where creepy guys got handsy with women?

Definitely. I'm sure. I'm sure that that's happened, but I can't imagine associating with somebody who I knew was doing things like that, no.

Gabriel Mizrahi: How do you two as men reconcile these dark realities? Is there a path toward trusting men again when the data and my own history tell me that it's a losing game?

Thank you for being the exception to my rule. Signed, salvaging hope for your gender after these numbers have basically rendered all men out there as offenders.

Jordan Harbinger: Whew. Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Easy peasy. I thought we would just end on a real light one today.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Definitely not thinking about how our response is going to live on in the transcripts for the rest of time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Try not to be creepy, Papa,

Jordan Harbinger: can you

Gabriel Mizrahi: please?

Jordan Harbinger: Well, the only thing creepy so far is you calling me Papa all the time on this podcast but- Fair

Gabriel Mizrahi: point.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Um, so first of all, I am so sorry to hear about this childhood you had. I mean, the details you shared about your dad, your mom and her gross boyfriends after he died, how it affected you and your [01:16:00] sisters.

It's, it's so extremely sad and painful. It makes me want to give you just such a big hug. It's complicated too because your mom sounds like, well, she's a complicated person, and my heart goes out to you and your sisters for just all of that. No child should have to deal with that. And we've already gone pretty hard in the paint here, so let me try to get right to it.

You asked before, have I stayed quiet when inappropriate comments were made? Again, it depends on what you mean by inappropriate. If you're talking about sitting at a table and a guy comments on a woman's appearance in a more than innocent or passing way, yeah, I've probably heard that and stayed quiet, especially if it was at work when I was a 26-year-old lawyer and the person saying it was, like, a seventh-year associate.

And sometimes words are just words. Now, if a guy ever around me ever said, you know, "I'd love to go assault that woman later when she's drunk," I mean, that's a different story. I w- I've never, by the way, actually heard a man say that, and if I did, I would absolutely be like, "Hold up. What?" Probably call the police.

I don't know. But I've never looked the other way while a guy I knew was [01:17:00] harming a woman, no.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Again, me either, except for this one time I did hear Jordan chewing really loudly around Chad

Jordan Harbinger: and I couldn't resist. Oh, yeah. Well

Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah. That was pretty harmful, but, uh, no, nothing like this, no.

Jordan Harbinger: I can think of counter examples and of course, like, oh, oh, of course you could think of examples where you did the right thing, and, and these probably stick out for other reasons.

But, uh, speaking of coked-up lawyers, me and my law firm buddies went to Vegas for a bachelor party for one of my boys. And now that we could actually afford it and be responsible, we rented a cabana at a pool party, and it was awesome. You know, I've never really been able to do that when I was younger, obviously.

I had to mooch off other people. And I remember my thing since I worked security as, like, essentially a kid at 17, 18, I always take care of the cops because there's always cops in the venue. And you find out who the cops are because if you need anything or anything happens, they're on your side or you do know, you know where they are So I would go out and I'd see the cops and I'd bring them water.

And we had unlimited water and Red Bull and stuff. So I'd bring these guys, like, Red Bulls, water, uh, stuff that they can drink on the job. And I would talk to them and [01:18:00] just essentially get to know them and let them use the bathroom that was in our cabana, because we had that dope one that had a, a bathroom in it.

And I remember seeing this Asian girl who had a tiara on and, and, like, a sash that said something like just married or getting married or bride or bachelorette, whatever it said. I can't remember. And she was just getting drunker and drunker and drunker, and her friends were just wiling out, and they were really fun to watch because they were so hammered and they were having a ton of fun.

And then I remember seeing her alone, and I thought, like, "That's weird. Her friends just left her?" And she was stumbling at this point, and I was like, "Oh, that's not good. This is ugly. I hope she's leaving soon." And there was the guys in the cabana next to us, and they had their curtain open. And I remember going out and talking to the cops, and I saw one of the guys be like, "Hey, come here."

And he grabbed her, and she fell onto him. And then he, like, turned over and pinned her down. And I remember going up and being like, "Hey, dude, not cool." And he goes, "It's fine. It's my girlfriend." And I was like, [01:19:00] "No, it isn't, dude. She's at a bachelorette party. She's still wearing the sash." And he was like, "Dude, screw off."

So I went and got the cops because I was like, "You're not sexually assaulting this girl who's getting married because she's drunk and alone. Uh, I'm just not letting this happen." Wow. And the cops went over there, and they were like, "No. No, sir." And they escorted her out, and that guy was really pissed off. And I was like, "Wow, you're just a rapist hanging out at this pool party.

Like, you were just going to rape her- Oh, damn ... or at least do something wildly inappropriate."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or do something, yeah, where she couldn't... She didn't have all of her faculties, so she- Right ... couldn't properly understand. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: And I know some people are probably thinking, "Oh, it's a pool party. There's tons of people around."

When you're in a cabana, you can close your curtains, and then, like, if, if history has shown me anything, it's that you can be sexually assaulted in front of hundreds of people, and they basically, like, don't know what's going on or don't care or don't want to interfere. But no, I'm... That was not happening on my watch.

And I was three sheets to the wind. I was hammered, but I was just like, "No, this, I can still see that this [01:20:00] is wrong." Wow. And my lawyer buddies were like, "Hey, what happened there?" And I was like, "Dude, that guy was going to... He was, like, assaulting her." And they were like, "Yeah, that's what it looked like." So all of us sort of, like, middle-aged, past-our-prime guys, that guy, he's lucky the cops got him because Kerwin's from Harlem and Keith's from LA, and we were just not having any of that.

I mean, the rest of us were, like, Jewish nerds, but, like, we, we, we were... That guy was about to get his ass- just totally hand it to him. So yeah, he's lucky the cops intervened. But that was scary. It was scary to watch a guy just think that that's okay. So that is definitely out there. There, there's guys that are just totally fine with this

Gabriel Mizrahi: Disturbing.

Oh, for sure. Yeah. That's a crazy story. I'm so glad you were looking out and intervened. Well,

Jordan Harbinger: she was really freaking lucky. What, I, I'm still to this day pissed off at her friends. It's been like eight years. I'm still pissed off at her friends for just bouncing and leaving her there. What, how did that happen?

What's going on here? But also, a woman should sort of be allowed to hang out at a place in public [01:21:00] during the day and not get raped. I mean, call, g- hot take, right? Um, I guess the only way I can reconcile these dark realities is by acknowledging that all people contain good and bad in them, and I think it's clear that men carry the unique burden of suffering alone and being violent for some reason, of wanting to conquer and attain power and all these things that put them in situations to create harm or create excuses to cause harm, especially to women, sadly, and I think that's pretty self-evident.

Whether it's biology or psychology or culture, again, I'm not qualified to say. I'm sure they all play a role, and I know a lot of women just hate this phrase, but look, still not all men, right? Not all men, clearly And so to address your other point about the 81% statistic, putting aside any questions about the methodology and how the researchers define these terms, those studies are deeply concerning no matter what.

But I'm also not convinced that they automatically confirm the larger worldview that you seem to hold. And I completely [01:22:00] understand why you're struggling with it, and I'm also not sure that it's the full story.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Man, whew, very well put, Jordan. That is a crazy story, and I think your point is spot on. I share your view.

It's interesting, there are kind of two ways to approach her questions, right? One is more logical and scientific, which is important. The other is through the lens of her personal history, which I know she's already onto. I think it's fair to say that she might be right about a lot of these statistics. She is right.

There is no denying it. The picture when it comes to this gender stuff can be very bleak. But the meaning that she is making of that picture and how it hits her, the attitude toward life and other people that it creates, not just intellectually, but emotionally, that is a whole other question. She has shared some very difficult facts about her childhood, very difficult.

You could argue that her mother's story, her entire childhood reflects the grim reality of these statistics. You could also argue that they conditioned her to be particularly wary of men, to be always on the lookout for abuse, mistreatment, disappointment, right? To be [01:23:00] particularly affected by the behavior of bad men, and to respond to studies like the ones that she mentioned in an especially sensitive way.

I think she even said that her personal life experience is what led her to look into all the, these studies, which is interesting. And all of that makes sense. This is for good reason. But she's going further than that. She's saying, "I don't know if I could bring a daughter into a world where men behave this way.

I don't know if I could raise a son," presumably she means knowing that he might be capable of this kind of thing.

Jordan Harbinger: I thought she meant more like, I don't know if I could love a child who's part of a gender that has let me down so profoundly. Ah. I don't know. That's-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay ...

Jordan Harbinger: I just took it that way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe both, actually.

But what I'm getting at is I'm not sure we can talk about her position on all of this without talking about this trauma.

Jordan Harbinger: I agree. And I understand her rage, I understand her fear. She's not crazy, and it breaks my heart. But the force of this data in her life, the attitudes it seems to be creating, that, it's just got to be informed by her own experiences, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: And again, I don't think this is entirely news to her, right? She understands that her childhood [01:24:00] gave her a certain lens on all of this, and again, led her to become very interested in this topic. But Maybe it's hard to appreciate how powerful that lens is sometimes. Because look, let's grant that you are 100% right about all of this.

The stats are real, your experience confirms it, most men are dangerous, most women are vulnerable and hurt. I think you know that you alone are not going to change that overnight. The last few years have shown us that, you know, these big social movements around this topic are incredibly powerful, but they also have obviously very real limitations.

What you can control is everything within your sphere, right? How you educate your potential future daughter to stay safe, empower herself, pick good partners. How you educate your potential future son to treat women well, manage his feelings, do his part to protect other people. How you respond to the people in your life, your friends and your family, even the patients you meet through your work.

How you show up for anyone in your life who has experienced this kind of thing. And maybe most importantly, how you make sense [01:25:00] of your own story and how you address this trauma and interrogate the conclusions that you draw from all of this based on the things that you have been through.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, how you make sure you yourself pick a safe partner, which I know is one of your concerns.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That, at the end of the day, is probably all you can do.

Jordan Harbinger: And that's not nothing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No. For most of us, all we can do is take care of our small sphere and trust that if we do that, we will be helping the world and hopefully, hopefully contributing to some kind of solution. But really my point is, yes, there is clearly a very big problem out there.

There is also a very painful wound in here, in you. And I could be wrong, but it sounds like they are very much wrapped up in each other. So if hope is really what you're looking for, then my feeling is your personal history is going to have to be a big part of the equation. And I don't know what kind of work you've done around this childhood stuff, but I do wonder if your feelings about men and the larger world would start to shift or at least take on some new shades if you approached your past in a new way and hopefully healed some of this stuff and created some new meanings out of it [01:26:00] Other meanings besides men are terrible and I want nothing to do with them

Jordan Harbinger: Could not agree more, Gabe.

And one of the best arguments in favor of that is look at her mom, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. That's a good point.

Jordan Harbinger: Both her parents really. She didn't tell us much about her mom aside from the fact that she had children quite young and she has severe mental illness. She said her mom never healed from the trauma of her husband committing suicide.

But I'm going to assume that she had some stuff going on before that happened. I mean, why else do you invite a string of drug addicts and abusers into your home with two young daughters? It's tragic. And her dad, God knows what he was dealing with, but he was obviously in a lot of pain. So, like, how would their childhood have been different if mom and dad had looked at some of this stuff?

We can't know of course, but her undeniably grim view of men, it was born in that environment because of parents who didn't or couldn't do precisely the work that you're talking about, Gabe. So our friend might have grown up to be a, how did she put it, a crazy 20-something extreme feminist no matter what.

And you could argue that the state of our culture [01:27:00] demands that people be a little crazy, a little extreme in order to bring about change. Fine. But these stats, which are objectively upsetting, they probably wouldn't produce as intense and militant a stance in her if she didn't live through a bunch of this stuff.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well said, and the militance of the stance is part of what makes me go, "Hmm, have we really looked at all of this?" Because it's just so monolithic and so passionate.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, I don't know if there's a more effective way or a more beautiful way to make good use of your rage and your fear than to channel it into being the best possible parent.

You have an opportunity here to say, "Okay, I'm enraged." So rage in service of what? I'm afraid, understandably, so fear in service of what? How can I use these feelings to be a better parent, a better friend, and a better doctor? If it's true that you want kids more than anything else, then that's one huge way to answer that question, and I do wonder if that would help transmute some of those feelings as well.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm. That's a really good point, Jordan. And maybe that's part of the healing, you know? I'm just really struck by this massive [01:28:00] conflict that she's in. She wants kids more than anything else, but she doesn't know if she will ever be in a safe enough relationship to have them, which I just want to reiterate is at least partly under her control because there are men out there who do not do this stuff.

But also she's afraid of having either a boy or a girl. Yeah. It's just such a tough place to be.

Jordan Harbinger: She's really tied up in knots there, isn't she?

Gabriel Mizrahi: So my gut is telling me that this conflict is in part a reflection of, first of all, yes, this trauma, but also maybe some underexplored beliefs. One way to cut through all of that, I don't know if this is going to mean something to her, but I'll just put it out there Her fear of having a daughter, I think to her that feels like fear about what might happen to her daughter when she grows up, right?

But it might be more accurate to say that that fear is the fear of having to be a mother who brings a girl into this highly imperfect world, who has to bear the anxiety of knowing that she might encounter some difficult experiences in her life, including but not limited to those with men, and who might have to be there for her daughter through some painful experiences.

Hopefully not, [01:29:00] but it could happen And her fear of having a son, like we said, she seems to be referring to her fear of having to raise a boy who might grow up to maybe mistreat women in some way or who just represents this gender who has caused her a lot of pain. But similarly, I wonder if what she's really saying is, "I'm afraid of having to be a mother who will have to acknowledge the light and the dark in her son, and who will have to have some vulnerable and maybe uncomfortable conversations with him about this topic, who will have to have faith that she can love this child even if he belongs to this gender that has done her wrong in a lot of ways, and even if he contains certain impulses or capacities that she finds scary or dangerous or off-putting."

So my point is, it might help her to get clear on what she's actually afraid of really, and then maybe she can work on that. And if she wants to resolve this conflict, she's going to have to really unpack it. So one element of that is clearly her childhood. Another is these more philosophical positions about men and women.

Another is how she [01:30:00] works with her feelings in general, including the struggle to hold her own feelings despite these intellectual positions. For example, trusting that if she can love her boy cousins this deeply, she can love her own son too, no matter what the data says. And by the way, there's no reason that that love can't grow even stronger by acknowledging the power and the responsibilities of her potential future son's gender, because those things don't automatically make a boy bad, and I just want to call that out too.

Jordan Harbinger: Could not agree more. That to me is the most fruitful path towards trusting men again. The data and your own history tell you it's a dangerous game. I totally get that. I'm not minimizing any of that. But alongside that, we can also make room for what about your choices? What about your personality, your outlook, the way you relate to men?

What about the experiences you can choose to generate from this point forward? You said you're looking for hope. I appreciate that. That tells me that there's a part of you that still believes in the potential in men. And if you're going to find the right one, and I believe you can, you're going to have to be [01:31:00] able to clock the bad ones and spot the good ones.

You're going to have to be appropriately guarded and open to the good in the men that you meet. That, in my view, is your work, alongside all of these incredible things you've done with your life, which is extraordinary. So I hope you get to do that, my friend. And hey, if it doesn't work out, you can also just become a gay old lady like your grandma.

Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out

JHS Trailer: Jacob Ward on AI and decision-making,

Jordan Harbinger: Lou Valoze on our Skeptical Sunday on ZYNs, if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust.

I'm teaching you how to do the same thing, build that same thing for free in our Six Minute Networking course. The course is not schmoozy. It's very practical. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. Dig the well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them Show notes, transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals.

I'm @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. [01:32:00] Gabe's over on Instagram @GabrielMizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

When a government bans words, people turn language into code. Laowhy86 reveals how Chinese citizens hide dissent in memes, emojis, and mythical creatures, and how AI is now learning to crack those codes.

JHS Trailer: We have to understand that China is an absolute totalitarian dictatorship. So these words to get around censorship are very necessary.

And I want to say the punishments before we get into this to understand what Chinese people face in terms of trying to [01:33:00] express themselves. If you spread rumors, you can get three years in prison. The second level of this is picking quarrels, making people have a debate or a discussion about something online.

And if the government decides that you're having a discussion about something they don't want you to talk about, that gets you five years in prison. And then you have inciting subversion. And in China, that is absolutely, positively the worst thing you can do. I mean, to the Chinese government, that's like treason almost.

So they can get you up to 15 years in prison, and people do face these jail times just for stuff they post online. So keep that in mind when we try to decode some of this language. People are literally risking their freedom and lives to post these things and get their worries out there into the world.

To drink tea means you actually go to the police station because the tradition is if you go into any sort of Chinese building or something, you're offered some tea or hot water in a cup. Recently, the way of talking about the current economic situation in China has gotten people arrested. Talk egg prices.

If you talk about [01:34:00] specifically just eggs, "Oh, egg prices are really high right now," that's like how to express discontent that life is getting too uncomfortable. Talking about the leader is so off limits, it's not even funny. I mean, that's where you get the 15 years to just, actually just disappearing.

People that do bring up or ask the leader to step down, that is the worst thing you can do in China, period.

Jordan Harbinger: Hear how this censorship cat and mouse game is getting darker on episode 1299 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.