1347: Grandma’s Adoption Blocks Custody Option | Feedback Friday

1347: Grandma's Adoption Blocks Custody Option | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, Maché, chilling in Chile, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Weon. Nice one. I like that one. Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: they love weon too, don't they? Everything's weon down there- They do ... with the Chileans.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Si, boss, si.

Jordan Harbinger: There's a whole other Spanish south of the equator somehow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Truly. Yeah. I thought I spoke Spanish, and then I came here, and I was like, "All right, I've got to learn it again, I guess."

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly, yeah. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks: organized crime figures, money laundering experts, cold case homicide investigators, Russian spies. This week we had David Epstein, author of Inside the Box: How Constraints Make Us Better.

We talked about how having tons of choices can actually be overwhelming and paralyzing, and how it doesn't necessarily [00:01:00] lead to the biggest breakthroughs. David's whole thing is basically we can all benefit from actually narrowing our options. Lots of grounded research and practical examples in this one.

Great for anybody who wants to understand how self-imposed boundaries can actually help you tap into unexpected wells of focus and innovation. We also had Dr. David Maimon on the dark web, identity fraud, and all kinds of futuristic cyber crime that is sure to touch your life if it hasn't already. We also did a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on avocados, something a little bit more simple than, than usual.

Well, at least, or so I thought. The avocados, it, it gets dark, folks. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and absolutely butcher various regional dialects.

Also, just a heads up, we're partnering with BetterHelp and have a special segment with my dad at the end of today's episode.

We talked about his experience beginning therapy later in life, so definitely stick around for that. It was a really cool conversation, and I think you're going to enjoy it.

Producer Jase Sanderson: Hey, show fam. Producer Jase here. If you want to drive your four-wheel car across [00:02:00] the canyon of Gabe's brush with death in Chile, you can jump ahead to timestamp 26 minutes and 35 seconds.

Enjoy the show.

Jordan Harbinger: So Gabe, how's Chile treating you, man?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, man, I have two more days here, and I'm really sad to be leaving. It has been incredible, man. Absolutely incredible. I love it here.

Jordan Harbinger: I've only seen a couple cities in Chile, and then just the Patagonia. That's it. But yeah, the country flies under the radar.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Doesn't it? I feel like Brazil and Argentina get all the attention, but Chile is bananas. They have it all. They have desert, they have mountains, they have wine, stars, volcanoes. They have incredible national parks. Patagonia, which I have not been to, but I would like to go the next time I come. And I have to say, the people here, at least the ones I've met, are absolutely lovely.

Jordan Harbinger: The cities down there are crazy. I, I wanted... I was hungry. It was probably, I don't know, 6:00 PM. I asked the woman in this hotel, it was like a giant mansion that they had turned into a hotel. And I was like, "Hey, is it safe for me to walk out there?" And she was like, "Oh yeah, t- [00:03:00] totally. Don't worry." That's a good thing, by the way, to ask any city is like, "Is it safe to walk out there?"

You can see, you think you can tell by looking, and sometimes you can if there's a tent city like on Skid Row But sometimes you really can't, and this is one of those places where you really can. She was like, "Yeah, it's totally safe outside. Just don't have your phone out at all. And then also, by the way, on that same token, if you're in a car and the window's down, also don't have your phone out at all."

"And, 'cause someone will reach in the car and grab it." And I was like, "No way." She goes-

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's perfectly safe as long as- Yes ... these very obvious things, terrible things don't happen to you.

Jordan Harbinger: And I was like, "Oh, I'll be careful." And she was like, "Yeah, really though, because it actually even happened to me and I grew up here."

She's like, "It's not a matter of just being as, a stupid tourist. Like, you'll just get robbed here." And I went to the burger place, and I was like, "Oh, okay. This is in Santiago." I go to the burger place, and I was like, "Wow, this is really nice. Is it safe for me to walk down that block?" And the guy goes, "Yeah, but as soon as you hit the big road, stop and turn around, and don't cross the street, and turn around.

Just come back this way." And I was like, "Uh, that's very specific." Very specific. And he goes, "Yeah. Also, um, while you're eating [00:04:00] here, don't have your phone out on the table." I'm like, "Inside the restaurant or outside?" He's like, "No, no, no. D- don't have your phone out at all." I'm

Gabriel Mizrahi: sensing a bit of a theme here.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Apparently, phone theft in Santiago, Chile is just the largest industry they have besides tourism. I don't know. I felt bad because the people there were so nice, so who's stealing all these damn phones, man? Who's doing this? I mean,

Gabriel Mizrahi: that might be in a lot of South American capitals.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But I have to say, everywhere I went in Chile seemed incredibly safe, including Santiago.

Maybe there are parts of Santiago that are rough. It's a big city.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You know me, I like to stay in the hood. I like me and my favela youth hostels. Oh, wait. That's also you. But every Chilean person I've met on my travels has been pretty cool. When I was in Egypt, there was an, a Chilean guy on the sailboat that I took for four days, and he would just go swim in the Nile.

And I was like, "You are brave, dude." And even the captain was like, "It's fine. There's crocodiles in there. Um, and also-" "... there's all kinds of stuff, so don't pee in there. There's candiru fish or whatever it is." I don't know if that's what it's called. But there's things that can swim upstream, if you know what I'm saying.

There's things that bite. Don't get the water in your mouth. I was [00:05:00] like, "I'm staying on the boat." And this

Gabriel Mizrahi: guy's like, "I'm doing 100 meters."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, he just hauled onto the boat and just, like, floated for a couple hundred meters. And I was like, "No, I'm not... I'm good."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Living his best life, this Chilean.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm solid on this.

There's just, like, snakes in there and stuff. The Nile is, yeah. I mean, some rivers don't want people in them. That's a fact. But yeah, th- they're kind of the Aussies of South America, the Chileans.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I haven't thought of it that way, but I think you're onto something.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, they... Well, think about it. They're snowboarding, skiing.

They're traveling all over. They're backpacking all over. They're the kind of people who do back flips off of a falls- That's true ... going down the Nile, and they're like, "Come on. What are you worried about?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: Something crazy did happen yesterday, and I have to tell you about it. I saved it for the show so that I could tell you and everybody else.

Jordan Harbinger: Uh, okay. Well, do's tell.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. So I'm in this tiny town near Pucon, and i- it's about halfway down the country and a little bit east near the border with Argentina. And I'm staying with my friend Sebastian. Now, I met Sebastian in the Amazon five years ago, and we had this incredible, uh, trip in the jungle.

And we really bonded, but we only spent, like, five, [00:06:00] six days together. And I haven't seen him ever since, but we just have this connection because of that trip.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, one of those friends. The travel ties go deep, huh?

Gabriel Mizrahi: The deepest. So we stayed in touch, and we exchanged a message maybe once a year, every other year.

That's about it. And he was always like, "Come visit me in the country. You have a place to stay anytime," kind of thing. So finally, on this trip after Brazil, I was like, "Okay, I'm coming."

Jordan Harbinger: Amazing. Love those friends.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I would describe Sebastian as a very sweet, very funny, very hyped up cricket of a man. Like, just full of energy, always moving, always cracking jokes, always singing in the shower, like always fixing things.

He builds houses. That's his job, so that's his thing. And he has two daughters, I think 11 and 13, and he has a girlfriend, Javi. Also awesome, also hilarious. And Sebastian and Javi are just the cutest couple together. Super in love. I've been having a really good time with them. So I flew from Floripa to Santiago, Santiago to Temuco I rent a car in Temuco, a Hyundai Tucson with four-wheel drive because Sebastian said you need a four-wheel drive [00:07:00] car to get up to my house.

And I drive two hours, two and a half hours east to his town. And, uh, it's actually funny. When I asked him to send me his address, he just sent me coordinates

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Okay. Not even a street, not even a town, just-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: no ... airdrop into this particular-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Map to here, and I'll come down the hill and guide you in.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, off the beaten path, fair to say.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I found out later that he doesn't know what his address is because they don't deliver mail there- Yeah, so what's the point? ... and he doesn't need it for anything. You don't need it. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, that's neither here nor there. It's just funny. So the day I arrived, Sebastian got a text from his childhood nanny, of all people, this woman named Amelia, and she sent him a picture of her hiking a volcano in the area.

Like, "I'm here. I'm in your neighborhood." They haven't seen each other for years and years and years, so he invited her to come stay for a week. So I get there, and now it's me, my friend I've met once in my life five years ago, his family I'm just meeting, and his incredibly sweet childhood nanny all staying in this fairly small house in the middle of nowhere.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Wow, that is super random. So [00:08:00] you're des- It's so random ... it sounds like you're describing a dream you had. And then, I don't know- ... his nanny was there for some reason. Yeah. I don't know. It's crazy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It was one of the more bizarre situations I've ended up in, but, like, perfect. These are, these are the moments I live for, just dropping into people's regular lives and finding out what it's like.

Jordan Harbinger: I totally agree. I did a pottery thing with the kids, uh, several months ago, and it was invited by one of Jayden's school friends. And you know one of those pottery things where you go and you paint stuff and you pay for it? I recommend it on recommended-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, yeah. This is the one where you were in the car where you didn't want to go-

Jordan Harbinger: Right

and then you went and you loved it at the end. Yeah. I was like, "What are we doing again?" And then I went in and did it. Mm-hmm. Anyway, so one of Jayden's school friends was there organizing it, so his mom was there. And her mom was there, who's, like, this old British woman who lived in Spain a- for most of her life.

She was like, "I'm psychic. I'm an intuitive. I'm a healer." And she was like, "And I love men. You're so fit and good-looking." And, and it's funny 'cause the, the mom of this kid, i- named Eddie, her name's Rebecca, she was just like, "I'm so sorry." And I was like, "No, I'm good. I'm good with it." And she was like- I'm living this

this old British [00:09:00] lady's looking at me and Jen, and she's like, "Oh, look at your bodies. You must just be... Oh, it must be so nice to be with one another." And I was like, "This is getting spicy, Mom." Wow. Yeah. So-

Gabriel Mizrahi: That is a weird vibe in a ceramic shop.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, at fricking Petroglyph. I'm like, am I being sexually harassed by a, a British pensioner?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. It sounds more like propositioned, but it's a thin

Jordan Harbinger: line, I think. She told me I should get a bunch of tattoos 'cause they're really sexy on men Like, I'm like, "Calm down, granny."

Gabriel Mizrahi: I fully endorse that decision. Yeah, dooze cruise on your, on your sacrum.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my goodness. Anyway, so yes, dropping into people's lives with these extra people around, it just like adds way more color than you expect sometimes.

Love it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. So for 10, 11 days we're just hanging out, making breakfast, lunch, dinner together. You know, hanging out on the deck. I'm working a lot of the times. A lot of mornings I drive the girls to school.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, nice. Which

Gabriel Mizrahi: is such a weird ritual.

Jordan Harbinger: Papa Gabe just rolling around the non-town- Yep ... in a four-wheel drive monster truck you rented from Hertz.

Nice.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But yeah, it's hilarious. So fun. And they love it. Like, we listen to K-pop on the wa- It's just such a ridiculous, [00:10:00] uh, setup here. And it's hard to explain, but like we've become a real unit, you know? Like, we've really bonded, just this weird instant family in another country.

Jordan Harbinger: That does happen when you make oatmeal with people every morning.

And you're laughing, and there's no high-speed internet to mess up the vibe. It's very sweet.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Very touching. Even though sometimes when they talk, I, especially the girls, I only understand like half of what they're saying. 'Cause that Chilean slang and how f- quickly they speak is wild. Okay, so anyway, I have to explain something.

Sebastian built this house on a really beautiful piece of land up this huge hill, and it overlooks this stunning, stunning valley that was formed by these volcanoes. So you just have this incredible vista.

Jordan Harbinger: So this is the view you posted on Insta, right? The one that looks like a macOS wallpaper.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. That was my view while I was working for the last week, week and a half.

So there's a paved road that takes you through their little unofficial town, and then you turn off from that road to a dirt road. You take that up a ways, and then suddenly you're in the sticks.

Jordan Harbinger: I feel like a lot of your stories involve turning off of [00:11:00] normal streets and driving uphill since- ... into chaos.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I didn't realize that, but you're right. So you turn off from that road onto another dirt road. That dirt road eventually forks. You take one of them, which is just wide enough for one car. And on one side of the road is the mountain, and on the other side of the road is a steep drop-off to a canyon below.

And you take that road maybe, you know, three, four, five minutes up the hill, and that eventually becomes his driveway.

Jordan Harbinger: Damn. That's where you want to be when the apocalypse happens.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, we talked about that. This is the place. This is the bunker. They have their own water supply straight from the mountain. They have electricity.

They have tons of food st- Like, this is the spot.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's like a billionaire bunker in New Zealand except down to earth. More, more affordable.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And probably way more fun based on the things I'm interested in. So I could tell you so many stories about the things we got up to this week. We did this eight-hour hike through a national park that blew my mind, Jordan.

By far the most beautiful nature I've seen. I haven't done a lot of nature stuff, so maybe my standards are pretty low, but like it was incredible. And then on another [00:12:00] day, we drove three hours to these hot springs and sat in the volcano water and made a barbecue under the stars on this sheep ranch that was stun- Like, it was just...

We've just been doing one great, great thing after another.

Jordan Harbinger: Yo, you're killing me. Where's my passport?

Gabriel Mizrahi: But here's what I have to tell you So Sebastian and Javi drive a white SsangYong sedan. Yeah. I've never seen one of these. It's a Korean brand. Okay. SsangYong. I think it's been rebranded since. But one of

It's kind of funny. One of his daughters started calling it Bang Chan after the leader of the K-pop band Stray Kids. I don't know if your kids listen to Stray Kids. No. But the, I guess the lead singer is named Bang Chan. I, I know this now because I drive carpool. So they just call this car Bang Chan. Like, "We're taking Bang Chan to Pucón," or, you know, "Bang Chan needs a new fuel injector," which it does.

Jordan Harbinger: Sure. Bang Chan, the official ride of K-pop enthusiast children on their way to school.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The thing is, this car is not doing great. It's just constantly having problems. It emits way too much exhaust. The doors randomly won't open, and, uh, it's just, like, constant headache. And the entire time I was there, they were having problems starting the car, and then they [00:13:00] finally realized, oh, it's not the plugs or whatever.

It's, it just needs a new battery.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so Bang Chan's seen better days.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Seen better days. So yesterday, Sebastian had his weekly football match. He plays in a local club here, and then they had to go run some errands. So he and Javi and Amelia were going together, and they're getting ready to leave, and they have their yerba mate cups in hand, which they don't go anywhere without their yerba mate and their hot water.

And they're like, "Do you want to come with us?" And I was like, "Kind of, 'cause when else am I going to go drink yerba mate and watch a local Chilean football match? That sounds cool." Again, that's exactly the kind of thing I travel for.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Cheering on a guy you met five years ago from the sidelines- ... while the cafe- mate, whatever, goes straight to the dome.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That mateína, yeah, exactly. But then I was like, "Ugh, I don't know. I should really prep the show," 'cause I- this is kind of my one day to get a lot of work done, and maybe I'll do some writing of my own. And I had this strong feeling that I needed to be alone, and I just needed to do my own thing that day.

Jordan Harbinger: Good producer. Appreciate that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So they leave, and I start prepping the show, and I'm totally [00:14:00] absorbed in what I'm doing, and then I hear the front door open. And I'm like, "Wow, that was fast. Like, was I just in a flow state and, like, three hours flew by, or was the game canceled?" Or like, what happened? And then Sebastian walks in, and he's just slightly more amped than he usually is, and he's like, "Hermano, have a problem with the car."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And I'm like, "Oh, the battery must have finally died or something," right?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, couldn't start the car.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And then Javi walks in limping, and she's, like, holding back tears.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, no.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And then Amelia walks in, and she's holding the side of her head, like, wincing.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, accidente.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And Sebastian is like, "Car went like that," and he holds out his hand, and he flips his hand on its side.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, so she has, like, a concussion potentially.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So what happened was the car wouldn't start, so they decided to do a push start, and Javi was driving, and Amelia was in the back seat on the right-hand side in the back. And Sebastian pushed the car on a small decline on their private road, and she...

Javi dropped it into second, but I guess it didn't start, because she tried to brake, [00:15:00] but the brakes wouldn't work.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, wow. Okay, because the power brakes were off? But the car should still brake, right? I, I'm, I would like to think they designed the car to still stop.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's what I would think, but I'm guessing this is another BongChon problem.

Jordan Harbinger: Dang, frigging BongChon. I, I... Maybe that's why we haven't seen those driving around the States.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Could be it. That could be it. That might be why they were bought and rebranded. So-

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah ...

Gabriel Mizrahi: there's a cur- I'm just wildly defaming this brand, I just discovered. I have no idea. Maybe it's just their car. But anyway, there's a curve in the road right around this part where they were, and Javi takes the curve pumping the brakes.

They won't work. The car picks up speed. They said it got, like, to 70 kilometers an hour in a few seconds. Oh my gosh. Like,

Jordan Harbinger: 40-

Gabriel Mizrahi: On, like, a

Jordan Harbinger: rocky m- mountain

Gabriel Mizrahi: road? Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: Yikes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, exactly. And remember, this is the road that's just wide enough for one car, so she's, like, panicking, pulls the handbrake. That kind of helps, but it's still going And so she turns the wheel really hard into the mountain- Yeah, smart

and the front tire hit the side of the hill and the car flipped on its side.

Jordan Harbinger: That [00:16:00] is terrifying. But at least they didn't go down the canyon.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I know. It's cra- I was a, guess it was a good decision, but... And unfortunately they weren't wearing seat belts. And I don't know if that's always what they do, 'cause I was always the one driving most of the time, or it was just while they're driving down the hill until they get to the main road then they put them on.

I don't know. But so Amelia fell from the rear right passenger seat to the ground and hit her head on the window.

Wise Elder Harbinger: Oof.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And Javi hit her leg pretty badly, and poor Sebastian didn't even see what happened, 'cause the car disappeared around the corner. He just heard it And he went running. And when he gets there, he sees their car on its side, which must have

Jordan Harbinger: been horrible Oh, what a nightmare, man.

This poor guy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So they walk in. I'm sitting there, like, my laptop is propped up on a pillow on my, uh, on my lap, and they walk in, like, in a state. And now Amelia is like, "Oh, I'm getting sleepy." Ooh. And poor Javi starts crying because she's like, "Oh my God, I just might have killed s- s- my boyfriend's second mother."

Like,

Jordan Harbinger: it was- Yeah, she must have been freaking out ... quite- 'Cause that, that just screams head injury.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She held it together pretty well, but yeah, she was panicking, understandably.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. And now you're ty- you're [00:17:00] just typing on your computer, like, "Dump him. Your boyfriend sucks. What are you getting out of this relationship?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: Literally that's what I was in the middle of when they walk in. So at a certain point, I just, like, slowly close my laptop, and I just sit there with them. And I'm like, "What can I do? How are you..." You know, they seemed okay. They were speaking. They were understanding me. They were talking, so that gave me some confidence.

But yeah, it was, it was a little bit tense for a few minutes. And then a friend of theirs came to get them from the bottom of the road 'cause the road is blocked, so nobody can come up or go down. And this friend took them to the hospital. They were gone for a while, six, seven hours.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, to be fair, it's probably a four-hour drive to a real hospital from where

they

Gabriel Mizrahi: are.

You're not entirely wrong. Luckily, Pucon is, like, 20 to 30 minutes. Okay. So not that bad, but that's still kind of a s- uh, a ways to go to go get seen. It's kind of scary, yeah. And they, finally they were seen, and they got CT scans and all that, and the doctor said they were totally fine. Just banged up, which is so lucky.

Jordan Harbinger: I wonder why she got sleepy though. What's that all about? Oh, you- I don't know ... you don't have a concussion, but you just g- cracked your head on the window, and you're [00:18:00] just suddenly sleepy? That's weird.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, I think she did have a concussion. She just didn't have, like, internal bleeding or something.

Jordan Harbinger: So you just don't do anything about that basically?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think so. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that's... Okay. Well, thank God they're mostly okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: They are very lucky, and we kept saying that. And when they came home, we had dinner together, and it was quite a dinner, as you can imagine. Everybody was kind of shaken up but, like, starting to chuckle about it, and everyone was just feeling very grateful 'cause this could have gone a very different way.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no kidding. They're so lucky they didn't drive off the canyon, man. That's- uh, South America probably w- the roads, rural roads don't have guardrails and stuff like that. I mean, why would they?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Actually, Chile's infrastructure is excellent. This is the easiest country I've driven in in South America. So it's not like backwater everywhere you go.

But no, this is a private country road, so it's not like Mulholland Drive, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: I remember when I lived in Serbia, I drove to Montenegro a couple times on a bus And it's actually a really nice drive, but the problem is it's next to the largest, [00:19:00] deepest, I think, canyon in the world other than the Grand Canyon is there.

And there's one lane mostly in the tunnels because it's just old Yugoslav infrastructure. And you can see... There's guardrails, but the guardrails have holes in them where cars and buses have plunged through them and fallen down the canyon, and they just didn't fix it. Great. Perfect. At least- Those aren't guardrails

25 years ago. They're guardrails that are only partially operating and are not strong enough to stop a car or a bus apparently. And you're driving through the tunnel, and the bus will stop and turn the brights on and honk basically to make sure there's no car in the tunnel, 'cause if there is, you're not getting out of the tunnel, 'cause he has to drive through the middle 'cause the bus is too high.

It's made for, like, a Yugo to drive through, maybe two Yugos, but not a bus and a Yugo or a, a car. So I just... This reminds me of that, 'cause you look down the side from the second floor of the bus and you're just like, "Holy smokes, that's far." And you can see things down at the base of the canyon sometimes, like cars and buses that are just there.

And of course, the occupants did not make it out of that. There's [00:20:00] no possibility that they lived.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's an amazing experience, but that's terrifying.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You're kind of like- Yeah ... "I'm going to go back to reading."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's not a guardrail if it doesn't guard. Well,

Jordan Harbinger: that's true. It's just a suggestion.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Anyway, the problem was how are they going to get the car down now, because it's at this awkward angle and there's not a lot of room for a tow truck to maneuver, and they had to somehow flip it back over, and then they had to figure out how to get it down the hill.

So after dinner, Sebastian and his friend Danny, who by the way is some kind of spiritual author/teacher- Of course. Yeah ... in there, which is a whole other story I can't get into right now. But it w- I say that because he lives in another dimension, but he was the handiest person I've ever... Like, he knew how to-

Jordan Harbinger: Hang a door and align your chakras?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Yeah. Basically. But I say that to illustrate how resourceful people in this area are- Wow ... 'cause you have to constantly fix things and, yeah, it was kind of amazing. Anyway, we drove down in my car to Bang Chan, and they took a cord they found in the driveway and they tied one end of it to the chassis of Bang Chan and the other end to the hitch on my Tucson, which was lucky [00:21:00] that I had a hitch I put the car in sport mode and then slowly accelerated up the hill until the car just went boom and flipped over again.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. I'm loving blue collar farm Gabe over here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I know. I know. I felt so useful. It was so- Yeah ... empowering, my delicate writerly hands finally getting dirty by shifting the car into drive.

Jordan Harbinger: You don't get a lot of calluses from setting up microphones.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, you

Jordan Harbinger: do not. It's cool you guys figured that out, though, way to get creative.

I might ... Personally, I probably would've just pushed the car into the canyon and been like- ... "Take me into town to the dealership tomorrow." I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Get me the insurance papers. Let's call it a day. That's

Jordan Harbinger: right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There's a Chilean idiom I learned on this trip that I am obsessed with. "La necesidad tiene cara de hereje."

Jordan Harbinger: Necessity has the face of something.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The face of a heretic.

Jordan Harbinger: Ah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Meaning when you have to figure it out, you figure it out.

Jordan Harbinger: So, like, necessity is the mother of invention, something like that?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Something like that. Something like that. I'm obsessed with this idiom.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Spanish idioms can really slap. Actually, idioms in most languages are really

Chinese ones are crazy, too, that none of them make any sense, and they, they don't [00:22:00] mean anything about what they say ever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's my favorite part of learning another language, is learning the idioms, 'cause you learn a lot about the culture, and then they have ways of explaining things. Like, this one is so

Necessity has the face of a heretic. It's just so extra.

Jordan Harbinger: So isn't Bang Chan done for? I mean, it flipped over twice.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Bang Chan. Your Michigan is showing, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Bang Chan.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Amazingly not. It needs a new door and a new window, and there was yerba mate spilled all over the windows in the inside cabin, but besides that, not too bad.

And then Sebastian tried to start the car, and the battery suddenly worked for some reason.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I guess it just needed a small accident. And he just drove it into a little turnout on the side of the road, and that was that. And now I have to drive carpool for the, every morning until I leave because my car is the only one we have now.

Jordan Harbinger: It was nice of one Korean car to save another Korean car. That's poetic.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I know. The Hyundai Tucson was, like, the responsible older brother, and Bang Chan was, like, the out of control younger sibling with a kind of music career who needs to go to rehab.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, right. [00:23:00] I do have a job. I work at the record store.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Chain-smoking outside.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: By the way, I have some photos and videos of all of this. I'll post it for you guys today so you can see what this looked like. It was quite a sight, this jackknifed car on this idyllic country road under the splendor of the Chilean stars. I just could not have staged the scene better myself if I tried.

Jordan Harbinger: I bet. But you could have been in that accident, dude, that you were supposed to be.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's why I wanted to tell you this story. How weird is that?

Jordan Harbinger: I don't know. I mean, what you're saying is Feedback Friday saved your life. That's what I'm hearing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Basically. If I didn't need to organize the dooze cruise, I might have been on the, the snooze cruise, the eternal snooze cruise.

Jordan Harbinger: Dark. The eternal snooze cruise. we've got to use that- ... when we talk about dying. Keep things light and fun.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's kind of nice, actually.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it is. I mean, but you, I think you might have actually worn your seatbelt in Pangchan.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Of course, absolutely.

Jordan Harbinger: So maybe it wouldn't have been that bad. But if she hadn't turned into the mountain or if you were in the backseat and Amelia landed on you, or you leaned forward to, I don't know, hit Spotify playlist or something like that, I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which I am prone to do. [00:24:00] Who knows? Would I have gone out to push the car? Oh, yeah. Would I have stayed in the car? Where would I have sat in the car? What would I have been doing? What if Amelia didn't send that text from the phone? Like, how far back do you go? It was so crazy.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. What if they'd actually replaced the battery the day before?

So it's weird to think about sliding doors moments.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: So good on you for listening to that instinct to stay home, slash putting our listeners above pounding yerba mate at a Pucon intramural football game.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My pleasure. Good thing I also love being alone, too. Also, I don't really love yerba mate, so wasn't that much of a sacrifice.

Jordan Harbinger: It's an acquired taste. I can't stand it. And everybody in Chile and Argentina was like, "you've got to try this. You've got to try this. It's an, it's an acquired taste and it's an acquired taste." Years ago, Ryan Holiday told me something that I, has stuck with me for at least 10 or 15 years, which is- I was talking about drinking with him and I was like, "Oh, whiskey, I like it.

It's an acquired taste." And he goes, "Yeah, people say that about cigars, but I never understood the point of acquiring a taste for something that normally tastes bad and is also really bad for you." Hmm. Interesting. And I was like, "That's a really good point." Yeah. I'm going to force [00:25:00] myself to like this thing that n- normally I wouldn't like.

Oh, and also there are no net, there are no benefits whatsoever. It's totally just a vice and terrible for you, and expensive.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, except that yerba mate apparently does have some health benefits. Like, it's supposed to be good for you. I don't know much about it.

Jordan Harbinger: Any time people have a vice, they try and rationalize some health benefits.

Like, "Oh no, it's a different kind of caffeine." I've got to do a Skeptical Sunday on this because yeah, I don't buy it. I just don't buy it. And I don't have data for this, but everybody who says, "Oh, the caffeine here is different and it doesn't make you edgy or whatever, or antsy," I'm like, I am pretty sure caffeine is just caffeine, bro.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Actually, no, that part is true. Really? I believe it doesn't ... Yeah, it doesn't give you the same crash that normal caffeine does. Huh. And I think that's part of what people like about it. I just don't know about the health benefits.

Jordan Harbinger: It also tastes horrendous.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, like you have to douse it in sugar to get through it.

It is the perfect beverage though if you're like, "I would love to drink a tea of hay mixed with car exhaust."

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Th- throw a little diesel in here and make it like grass tea. Yes, exactly. If you had died in a [00:26:00] Chilean country car accident, I don't know what I would've done, man. This would've been a, a weird episode, first of all.

So Gabe's on the eternal snooze cruise, and all of the answers from this point forward on Feedback Friday will be devoid of compassion and nuance. All right. Well, at least it sounds like Chile delivered in every single way. Y- you have a story. You have some memories.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Truly. Hit all the notes, I have to say.

And just a whiff of death here at the end, which is always good in a story. I had the best time here. I cannot wait to come back. Truly a stunning country. The best idioms, the best Spanish, the best vibes. And shout out to Sebastian and Javi for being the best hosts I could ask for, and also for staying alive-

Jordan Harbinger: That's

Gabriel Mizrahi: right

which I'm very proud of them for.

Jordan Harbinger: All right, Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mail bag? "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, my wife and I have a friend, we'll call her Sam, who's 21 years old and currently living with her parents. A couple of years ago she had an unintentional pregnancy with her boyfriend, who lives about eight hours away.

We'll call him Tom." Sam truly loved [00:27:00] Tom and was fully invested in the relationship. But when Tom found out she was pregnant, he completely ghosted her. He blocked her on all social media, stopped answering calls and texts. Even his parents cut off communication with Sam and her family.

Jordan Harbinger: What a class act.

Jeez, that sucks.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This was an extremely difficult time for her. She withdrew from her friends, isolated herself, and fell into a deep depression. My wife and I were dealing with our own pregnancy and financial stress at the time, which made it difficult for us to be there for her in the way she needed, especially when the only reliable method of contact was showing up at her parents' house.

After nearly a year, Sam reached out to my wife to reconcile. My wife gladly met with her and they talked through everything. Sam shared just how broken she had been during that time. We made it clear that we are here for her no matter what Since then, she has made significant progress. She's taken better care of herself, focused on personal growth, and worked to rebuild her life.

The change has been genuinely encouraging to see, [00:28:00] even though the weight of her past situation still shows at times.

Jordan Harbinger: That's great news. That's a huge thing to bounce back from, honestly. Damn.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Her daughter, who we'll call Anne, is now almost two years old. Anne is a sweet little girl who gets along wonderfully with our son, who is slightly younger.

It's clear that Sam has been a loving and capable mother. The support from her parents has also played a role in her stability, allowing her to grow in her career, rebuild relationships, and provide a good life for Anne.

Jordan Harbinger: Amazing outcome, all things considered.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Now for the doozy.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, please. Putting on my dooze bib.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. So you don't get any dooze on that clean shirt, Papa.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I got a nice new shirt on. Wouldn't want to get any dooze dribs on this thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dooze dribs.

Jordan Harbinger: We are but gentlemen.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Unbeknownst to us at the time, during her pregnancy, Sam's mother convinced her that Tom or his family would try to take the baby by falsely accusing Sam of assault.

She instilled a deep fear that the only way to protect the child was to allow her mother to adopt the baby after birth. [00:29:00] So that's what happened. Sam gave up her parental rights, and Sam's mother now has full parental rights over Anne through a legal adoption in the state of Georgia. Tom does not have any parental rights either.

Maybe there was some back-end legal stuff similar to a summons, and the lack of response constituted the release of his rights to Anne. Since then, the situation has taken a troubling turn. Sam's mother has become verbally abusive, telling her that she has ruined Anne's life and failed her by not providing a good father.

She also mocks Sam for attending church with my wife and me, calling it a cult and claiming it will only make things worse.

Jordan Harbinger: So where is this all coming from? Or was she always like this?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Whatever opinions people may have about religion, the truth is that the church community has had a profoundly positive impact on Sam.

It has provided her with support, structure, and encouragement during a time when she was not actually receiving those things at home.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, I totally believe you 100%. I think if I was a 20-something single parent, I would go to [00:30:00] church too or synagogue or something. You need something like that. You need some kind of community.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I recently sat down with her and went over her finances. She can definitely move out into a relatively cheap apartment, but she would have to adhere strictly to the budget we created. It would be hard, but fully possible. But her mother refuses to allow her to take Anne with her, all of which is making this a far more difficult decision Sam does not want to remain in that environment, but she also cannot bear the thought of leaving her daughter behind.

While she hasn't said this outright, I believe she is enduring the situation and avoiding conflict in order to maintain whatever access and influence she still has in Anne's life. She feels stuck and believes her only option is to slowly convince her mother to eventually allow her to regain custody.

There are also concerning control issues. For example, Sam recently applied for a credit card to begin building credit. Before she could access it, her mother intercepted the mail, opened it, and destroyed the card. She then lectured Sam, claiming that having a [00:31:00] credit card would ruin her life financially.

This is not an accurate assessment of Sam's responsibility.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Also illegal. It's called obstruction of correspondence. It's a felony. Gabe, there's a part of me going, does Sam's mother know something about her that we don't? Like, does she know that her daughter can be and has been reckless with money, or she's prone to falling in with questionable organizations?

Uh, maybe she was in a crazy cult before, or does she... Maybe she has a terrible track record or I don't know. Maybe she's being kind of a dick, but it's for a reason. I don't know. It's hard to say. We, we have one side of the story as usual. But after the credit card thing, another part of me is going, oh, okay, this woman just wants to disempower her daughter so she can keep custody of her granddaughter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's really hard to know what's going on. But then if that's the case, why? Why is she doing that?

Jordan Harbinger: That's the crazy thing. I get a parent pulling moves to get custody of a child. I get that. But a grandparent? If she's not doing this stuff for altruistic reasons, like Sam really is unfit to care for Anne, which doesn't seem to be the case, is she [00:32:00] really like, "I want a baby again at 73 years old"?

That's a little bizarre to me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or maybe she's grown attached to her granddaughter and doesn't want to give her up, but that's also just as questionable.

Jordan Harbinger: It is, yeah. So I don't know. There's more here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We have since advised her to have important mail sent to our address. Then recently, Tom reached out to Sam They scheduled a time for him to come visit Anne.

Sam wanted to do it at my house so she would have company. Tom ended up ghosting her again a week before the day. I've also encouraged her to document everything, messages, specific incidents, dates, and especially any details related to how her mother persuaded her to agree to the adoption. My hope is that this could help establish whether coercion or emotional pressure played a role in that decision.

What steps can Sam realistically take moving forward? Is there any path for her to regain custody or establish legal rights to her daughter? And how can my wife and I best support her through this? Signed, a friend trying to play quarterback in the game of getting my friend's daughter back when all her mom [00:33:00] sees is what she lacks, and when it comes to her rights, she won't cut her slack.

Jordan Harbinger: What a sad story. This is a bizarre story. Needless to say, my heart does go out to Sam. To be abandoned by the father of your child only for your own mother to basically take her from you, this poor woman has really been through the wringer. I, I'm really glad she's doing better these days. That must say a lot about her, but man, she's been dealt a pretty tough hand here.

My heart also goes out to you guys, having to watch your friend struggle like this for so long We wanted to get an expert's opinion, so we reached out to a lawyer friend of ours who has some experience in family law way back when and who asked to remain anonymous. And basically what he said was, "There are no easy answers to your questions legally speaking."

He said a lot of this is a fact and law specific matter and something that needs the attention of a local lawyer, as most matters are. Meaning the unique facts of Sam's case, that's what's going to determine her options and outcomes, and the unique laws around custody and all that in Georgia, that's all going to play a big role.

But our expert did say that Sam does not need to resign herself to [00:34:00] things staying as they are. That said, because Sam gave up her parental rights, our expert said that might be harder to undo. In that case, he said that Sam might need to argue fraud or undue influence, which I think is what you're hoping for with all this documentation.

Family law was never my area, but just based on what I've heard over the years, that could be a more challenging case to prove. Not impossible, but harder. And if she's going to succeed, she's probably going to have to come with a ton of documentation, like you said, well organized, in a way that really establishes the narrative, the narrative that Sam's mother coerced her into doing all this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But even then, I'm just trying to imagine how you get a judge to see it that way when Sam sound... It sounds to me like she was healthy and sane and sober and all of that when she signed away her rights.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So, like, how do you paint that picture?

Jordan Harbinger: It doesn't sound easy, but I mean, look, if you're like, "I live with my mom, and my mom said this is going to happen, and she will only help us if she can adopt the baby," it's like, well, okay, if your choice was you're going to be home- I mean, you can frame things in a certain way, right?

She said, "I would be homeless and out on my butt, or I [00:35:00] could let her adopt my daughter."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Someone else is going to come and take the baby.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But it's going to be a long road, I think.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, this is not easy, and our expert agreed. He said if Sam gave up her parental rights, that makes her situation really tough.

But he also said that the facts on the ground, that she's living with Anne, that she's there to parent her, that should help. But either way, the bottom line is a local attorney with adoption experience who has all the facts needs to take a look at her case. And our expert said it's best not to delay on that because that could allow a new and toxic status quo to be established.

So what he's getting at is you don't want to sit around for six, nine, 12 months hoping things magically shift with her mom because the longer that goes on, the more Sam's mother's role becomes entrenched, the more power she accumulates emotionally and legally, the more Anne gets used to being raised by her, the harder it's going to be to have a court shake things up, all that.

Now, I know money's tight for Sam. A lawyer is always an expense. But our expert shared something interesting with us, which is that some states have attorney's fees provisions that might make [00:36:00] Sam's mother have to pay Sam's family law bill. And Georgia is one of those states Based on what we've read in Georgia family law, the default rule is usually that each side pays their own lawyer.

But Georgia statutes give judges broad discretion to shift fees in divorce, alimony, custody, contempt, modification cases, and apparently they make that call based on the financial disparity between the parties, whether one side controls most of the money, fairness and access to representation, stuff like that.

So who knows? That could work in Sam's favor or at least make her a little bolder. Of course, there's also free legal aid groups out there, and you can find them by checking out the Georgia State Bar website. Well, any state bar website really.

Gabriel Mizrahi: As for how to best support Sam through all this, it sounds to me like you guys are already doing that very well emotionally, of course, legally, logistically, even financially.

I'm kind of struck by the fact that you built her a whole budget. I mean, you guys sound like very solid friends. I would say anything you can do to give your friend confidence, support, power is going to be a good thing. Getting a credit card [00:37:00] is also an important step. I imagine it's pretty hard to be independent when you can't, you know, pay for Pampers with a MasterCard, which I assume is why Sam's mom doesn't want her to have one, which again, disturbing.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this is kind of domestic violence 101 stuff. Control the person financially, limit their options, make them dependent on you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Unless, like you said, there's some other explanation. I would also continue to encourage her to build her career, hold down good jobs so she can earn money and hopefully prove to a judge one day that she is very stable and she is responsible.

And then, you know, making time for her to talk when she wants to talk, of course, which I'm sure you're already doing. I think the tough thing about your position is that you can't really do very much on the custody front. Only Sam and her attorney, really her attorney, can do that. You can just help around the edges.

So maybe equally important to supporting her is also remembering that you guys cannot fix her situation with her daughter or do Sam's work for her. And I love how much you're rooting for her. I love how much you're trying to prepare her for this. She's extremely lucky, but you know, there's a limit to that and you also have to [00:38:00] live your own lives too.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. I suppose there's a whole other strategy which I think Sam is casually pursuing, which is not to jump straight to a legal battle but try to win her mom back over and prove to her that she's responsible so she can get Anne back.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But we're not hearing anything in the letter that suggests that that's very likely.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's the problem. And even if she informally let Anne go stay with Sam in another place, as soon as she changes her mind or just wants her for a week, she can call the police and be like, "Hey, I have custody." Sam's going to have to be awarded custody by a court to know that Anne is really going to be with her long term.

But like is there a Gray Jordan approach where Sam pretends to play mom's game and gets in her good graces and says, "You know, thank you so much for saving Anne from Tom's parents back then. I know you were just trying to protect us," and talks about how they're going to, I don't know, r- raise Anne together and stuff like that.

And then at a certain point just gets her mom to voluntarily give her custody. Maybe that's an option. I don't know how likely it is to work.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It is a risky way to try to get custody, but I suppose it's an option.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, which is why I'm afraid this might have to [00:39:00] get a little ugly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Jordan, in the interest of making room for all the narratives, all the possible narratives-

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

I'm glad you're going there 'cause like I s- I, I do wonder.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm just asking myself what might Sam's mother say about all this? In a world where this woman is not a total monster, which we don't know, but in a world where she isn't, 'cause like you said, this is a fairly extreme thing to do. I have to believe she's doing it for some reason.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and remember, she suddenly became emotionally abusive. This is not like she's always been this way, right? So that's, something's going on here. As far as we know. If we could talk to Sam's mom, would she say something like, "Well, my daughter stayed with a guy we warned her about over and over. She got pregnant, which we warned her about.

She racked up a bunch of credit card debt that we had to pay off for her. She was a mental and emotional basket case for two or three years with a newborn baby. We had to step in and make sure the kid was okay because sh- we were all worried that the ex was going to come out of the woodwork with false allegations and take the kid away from the family."

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, that's not out of the question. And now here she is [00:40:00] opening the door to this guy again, and he's ghosting her and the baby again. So what does that say about her judgment? This is what her mom might think.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, I really do feel for Sam, and I'm sorry to say, but the facts do not paint the most encouraging portrait here And to be clear, we're speculating a little bit perhaps wildly here, but look, if this is my daughter and she got pregnant with a guy who ghosted her and then she couldn't get out of bed in the morning for three years and she didn't have a career or a partner or seemingly many inner resources to take this huge challenge on and then the guy's floating in and out on his whims, I don't know, I might have done the same thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Then Grandpa Jordan at 75. I could see it.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, it's Pop-Pop Jordan once those papers come through. Yeah, I don't know, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, you're making some good points. Although I also want to say all of this is compatible with her having come a long way and we're not saying that she's unfit to parent. Yes. I'm just trying to imagine what her mother thinks about all this.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Again, we do not know. Sam's mother could be a total lunatic tyrant who's trying to get between her daughter and her granddaughter. But given the facts here, this other version of events seems equally if not more likely.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And if that is true, then what does that mean for our [00:41:00] friend here?

Jordan Harbinger: Well, it's hard to say.

It could mean that he should encourage Sam to do what's best for Anne even if that means she doesn't get custody back.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's tough, but that might be the right move. But again, I also believe him when he says that Sam has come a long way so, you know, maybe she is in a position to have custody again now.

So I don't know. It, maybe this means encouraging Sam to acknowledge to her mother, if this is true of course, that she understands her mother's reasons for pushing her to give up her rights at the time, but she's in a very different place now. She's learned a lot. She's a different person now. She wants things to change.

Which I can imagine that's going to be a very difficult conversation for you to have with Sam who probably looks to you to support her unconditionally and I imagine it'll probably be a pretty difficult conversation for Sam to have with her mother if this is the route she wants to go, but that's up to her of course.

I just think it's fascinating to consider the possibility that both of these things are true, that Sam's mother might have had some good reasons for doing what she did and that Sam might also still deserve custody now.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. And I don't mean to repeat [00:42:00] myself, but we could be totally wrong here. I acknowledge that.

But if there's even a little truth to this theory, then it's a fascinating example of how complicated these situations can be and it might not be as black or white as Sam's mom is a monster and Sam's an angel or Sam was a nightmare and thank God her mom stepped in. There might be just a lot of gray here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And so part of your job might be helping your friend come to grips with that gray.

Jordan Harbinger: Either way, she should seek out qualified local legal advice ASAP. I, I'm really sorry she's in this situation. It sounds like a nightmare, but I'm crossing my fingers that there's a way out of it. It'll take time. It's going to take a lot of work, but it sounds like it's a fight definitely worth taking on, so good luck.

By the way, you can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a lot easier. If your sibling is pushing you to cut your parents off for what they did years ago, you're gunning for a promotion and you keep getting passed over, or you're trying to salvage a shred of hope for men after life and a bunch of studies have turned you against the gender entirely, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

We're here [00:43:00] to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out the newsletter Wee Bit Wiser. It's a bite-sized gem from us to you just about every week, under two-minute read. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from the show, I invite you to come check it out.

You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com/news. All right, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, my daughter is 47 and has been married to her husband for 21 years. Early in their marriage, they decided that he would manage the finances. Although she questioned him often, at least two to three times a week, to confirm what he had been telling her, she never actually looked at any financial records.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, but two or three times a week, I mean, we flat... Put a pin in that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Having been widowed at 46 with debt from a husband who overspent and had no life insurance, I learned how important it is to know where my finances stand. I encouraged her to work together with him, but she chose to trust him with the money management.

After listening to a podcast on the topic, she decided to run her credit report and was [00:44:00] completely shocked by what she found. He had told her that they had no debt other than their mortgage and that they had at least $85,000 in savings. After a car accident two years ago, they decided they had the cash to pay for a new car.

He lied about that and had taken out several personal loans with extremely high interest rates to pay, quote-unquote, "cash" for the car. He's also juggling multiple credit cards. He invested in crypto and stocks through his company, saying it was a way to make more money, but supposedly has closed those accounts.

He also lied to her about his salary bonuses, saying his company had stopped them even though he was getting a minimum of $4,000 per quarter, as well as contributing $1,000 a month to his personal 401. The combined debt is now over $75,000 with no savings.

Joe Exotic Clip: I am never going to financially recover from this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, is that Joe Exotic?

That's so funny.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man. When the person gets their arm chewed off, he's-- his first thought is- "Oh, man, I'm [00:45:00] never going to financially recover from this."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, this is a nightmare, isn't it?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this guy's out of control, or he's just extremely inept with his finances, but it sounds like he was lying about a lot of it and possibly moving money somewhere where he didn't want to admit money was going.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He cannot or will not explain where the money went or why he continued down this path.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm thinking he pissed it away on dumb crypto plays, or he has a secret gambling addiction. That's possible.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's kind of where my mind went. Like, is he hitting FanDuel every night and he's in over his head?

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, or he's got a secret family in another state or something, but he sounds inept enough to not actually be able to manage that kind of thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But this is a lot of money to just lose in the market. I mean-

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it went somewhere.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Apparently, he made up elaborate stories for years, but in ways that somehow made sense to her based on their income, spending habits, and savings. She's still not sure if he has told her everything. "My daughter is completely devastated, overwhelmed, and heartbroken, but is determined to repair what she can and build her own security.

She feels [00:46:00] like a fool and is ashamed, although I've told her many times that she did nothing wrong. She is a loving, caring, strong, intelligent, and beautiful woman who needs help. She is the best mother I know, works tirelessly, and devotes herself to her four teenagers every day. Because of this, they are secure and confident, and she is determined to keep it that way They love their dad, so she didn't ask him to leave and is not considering divorce.

From the outside, he appeared to be a good man who provided for and took care of his family.

Jordan Harbinger: Being the operative term, I guess.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Coached his boys in basketball, went to church, and clearly loved his wife and family. Although she is the dominant one in the relationship, she always put her husband and kids first.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Curious last sentence there, but okay, I hear you on all this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Jordan, I'm not sure I could stay with somebody who lied to me about something this big when the consequences are this severe.

Jordan Harbinger: I don't think I could either. Like, where do they go from here? How does she trust him again? This is a [00:47:00] massive betrayal.

The only scenario where I could maybe imagine staying is if my spouse totally came clean, confessed to everything, apologized, showed where the money went, which he still won't do, said, "I have a problem. Here's what the problem is. I'm getting help for it. I want to get better and make it right." Then maybe I would be able to stay if they were sincere and they were able to make real progress on whatever was driving their financial problems.

But it, it sounds to me like our friend's daughter's just like, "Well, the kids love their dad, and if we separate, they won't be secure and confident anymore, so that's off the table." I know we're not hearing from her, but I just, I don't understand the logic here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, what he did to his wife, he also did to his kids.

He's compromising all of them.

Jordan Harbinger: Of course, and if she's such a good mom, there's no reason that that should have to change if they separated.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, we're getting ahead of ourselves, but I just wonder if she would do even better apart from this guy who's compromising them in all these ways.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah, and this stuff could plague her for years.

They have no savings, and they have 75K debt. I don't know how much they make, but if you don't make f- several hundred thousand dollars a year, that's going to take forever to pay off [00:48:00] And especially if he's got high interest personal loans. Uh, my theory, I'm going to speculate again, she's so devastated, she's so embarrassed, and to be fair, maybe confused and overwhelmed, that she doesn't want to make any big decisions on the marriage because it'll just confirm that she was kind of asleep at the wheel and knew something was off and asked him three times a week and never got a satisfying answer, and she just doesn't want to acknowledge all the implications.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which, to be fair, I do have some compassion for her.

Jordan Harbinger: I've been in this situation with business partners in the past where you're like, "I want to see the bank statements." And they give you the runaround. It's more comfortable to keep your head in the sand. Years and years and years and years ago, like double digit, yeah, 15, 16, even, I don't even know, 17, 18 years ago, right when I first started my first business, one of my first businesses, we had this CEO guy, and he was managing the company funds.

And this is something he did for his real estate brokerage or whatever. And we would be like, "I want to see the money. I want to see the statements." And he would show us this Excel spreadsheet with all these different things in it. And I'm like, "Okay, but that's not a bank statement." He's like, "Come on, man, you're wasting my [00:49:00] time."

And I was like, "All right, fine. All right, fine." Everyone's like, "What are you worried about? What are you worried about?" Well, later on I finally was like, "What in the heck is going on here?" Well, this guy kept getting more and more stressed out, to the point where we, we sent him away for a week to go on vacation 'cause he was throwing chairs in the office.

I mean, he was totally ridiculous. We had, like, an intervention meeting, and it was completely insane. And so we're like, "You need to go take a break, go back home, relax for a week." So he goes back home, and we're getting mail, and we're like, "Oh, okay, there's mail from American Express. It's got his name on it, but it's our company and it's our Amex, so let's open it."

And he had all these bills and things like that in his email, 'cause I, I don't know why he thought we weren't going to log into the company email. It's company email. So we were logging into that and seeing that he had, like, all these overdue bills. So what this guy was doing was... And thankfully he did it this way.

He opened up a bunch of credit cards in his name personally, and he took all of the money out of that and would use that cash to pay company debts. I don't know why he was doing that. Probably 'cause he would need [00:50:00] our sign-off to borrow money otherwise, and we wouldn't have wanted to do that. And I don't know why he did this, but again, he borrowed personally and then funneled it into the company.

And we were like, "Dude, you didn't have permission to do all this." And our lawyers were like, "You need to tell him that these are not your debts. You don't accept them." And so he ended up declaring bankruptcy And it's crazy 'cause he did pay for company expenses, but it was like company expenses that only he wanted.

So we basically had to... We terminated him and then he just had, he just had to hold the bag.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's really messed up.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, so he didn't have a case. He, he tried to stiff the company with that and he kept being like, "You need to write me a note that says you owe me all this and that the money was corporate and..."

But like even his own lawyer was like, "So you didn't have their permission, you took personal debt, you used it to pay for company things that they didn't approve and you want them to reimburse you? No." So yeah, he was just SOL. It's just absolutely crazy, but it was all like, "You worry about your job, I'll worry about mine."

You know, it's that whole nonsense. So yeah, I don't know. For months I was like, "Okay, Simon's got it handled. I don't [00:51:00] want to know about the finances." I was basically this woman's daughter too at one point, so I get how this happens.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm furious at him and the destruction he caused, but I have assured my daughter that I will be walking with her every step of the way.

I'm also concerned about my daughter's mental and emotional health. I'm encouraging therapy to deal with all that has been put on her She truly believed she was married to the love of her life and is now remembering all the good times she had with her husband.

Jordan Harbinger: Again, I really do understand how tough this must be for her.

She's still coming to terms with all this. She's mourning their marriage, the marriage she thought she had. I get that. But this is kind of what I was getting at a moment ago. She might not want to be in touch with all this pain, so she's jumping straight to, "We're staying together for the kids." Anyway, yeah, I think it would be great if she could talk to someone.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've recommended that she ensures her name is off any joint debts other than their mortgage and opens bank accounts in her name only.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, smart.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Smart, but also isn't that what you do when you're preparing to divor- Yes. I'm conf- Can you do that if you're still married?

Jordan Harbinger: You can if you're still married, but it doesn't...

The problem that I think a lot of [00:52:00] people have is they think like, "Oh, I opened this account and it's in my own name, therefore this is only my property." And that's not how this works. But if you want to keep your deadbeat husband from wasting it on a, a parlay bet on FanDuel, you can open it up, put it in your name, and technically he owns some of it, but it doesn't mean that he can go and take it at a moment's notice with a debit card or something like that, right?

He would have to ask you for it, and that's if he knows about it. Just saying. There's a difference between what's legally owned by somebody in a divorce proceeding as community property and what somebody can access on a moment's notice without you noticing. Those are two different things.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What is your recommendation for actions that she can take now and in the future?

Does she need a financial attorney to advise her through this mess? If so, where do we start? And how can I encourage her to start therapy to help her through this process of grief and financial instability? Signed, Helping my daughter who wants to overlook the fact that her husband was playing funny with the books.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, what a nightmare.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So stressful.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm [00:53:00] very sorry for your daughter. A bomb has just been dropped in her life, and that is awful. And I'm also very sorry for you as her mom having to watch her deal with the fallout and also sometimes disagreeing with her about what she should do. But your commitment to supporting her no matter what, respecting her autonomy to decide, that sounds thoughtful on your part.

It's got to be hard sometimes, but it's probably the right stance to take, and I'm sure it means a lot to your daughter. So to be very tactical for a moment, I think the most important thing that your daughter needs to do is find out as much as she can about what the heck is going on here That means obtain all credit reports from all three credit bureaus, pull every bank statement, even if she needs to go to the bank and do it herself, every retirement account, every loan, every credit card, every tax return, every investment account, every line of credit, document everything.

And not because she needs to divorce her husband immediately. She really needs to do this because, well, she needs to know how bad the problem really is and wrap her head around how many different [00:54:00] liabilities there are actually, because she's still largely taking this guy's word, her husband's word, for all this, and his word has less value than the shitcoin crypto he bought by draining his 401.

Also, new debts and losses and weird purchases might reveal themselves over time. There's a reason this guy's still being cagey. Look, I've never been in this situation, but if you ask me, 'Where did that $100,000 go?' I don't go, 'Gosh, I don't know. It's just so crazy around here. There's a lot going on.' No, you're not running a business with 10,000 different transactions per month that he's got to sift through and add it all up.

He knows where the money went. He just doesn't want to tell you So she can't really decide what to do next. She can't make the best possible decision without understanding the full picture. If I were her, I would also be pushing for answers about where all of the money went. I would encourage your daughter to hold this guy's feet to the fire, do some digging of her own to figure out how he spent it, because if he has a gambling addiction or he's a compulsive spender or he's just a terrible investor that buys get-rich-quick [00:55:00] nonsense crypto, or he's got a secret cocaine addiction or something, a mistress or girlfriend somewhere, or he's just a hot mess in general, those are all different problems with different degrees of risk, different origins, and different solutions.

So I'm not sure if your daughter can even responsibly make the call about whether to separate or stay or what kind of help to get her husband without knowing what the actual freaking problem is, right? Because Gabe, it's like you are less likely to stay with somebody who maybe has a girlfriend on the side versus just a bad investor.

There's, those are two very different things, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The fact that she doesn't actually know what the problem is after discovering all of this and confronting him and doesn't, based on this letter anyway, seem particularly eager to get to the bottom of that problem and really un- that, that itself is, is a problem to me, and it starts to become her problem, not just his.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And again, that's where I get confused by this daughter. She's saying, "We're staying together for the kids," and she still doesn't even know if her husband has a secret kid in Florida or is sending all the money up his [00:56:00] nose or is addicted to dodgy crypto Twitter plays or what. I don't quite know how she's thinking about this whole situation, but it kind of fits with the, "Well, I questioned him but took his word for it for years."

It just smacks of avoidance and willful blindness to me, especially at this point.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also kind of chips away at the whole she's the dominant one in the relationship comment, too. Yeah. I'm kind of confused by that.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, she might manage the family calendar and talk the most at the dinner table, but as long as she doesn't even

She's not looking into this. She's not holding her husband accountable. She has no idea where the money went and w- where the money is and how much debt they have. I'm not so sure she's wearing the pants in the family. And right now she needs to wear the pants 'cause this dude can't even pay for the pants that he's wearing.

He can't afford the pants.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Do you think she needs an attorney at this point?

Jordan Harbinger: I think she needs to pull all their credit reports, look at all their bank statements and all their account summaries and get a handle on things. And then once she figures out how bad this is, she probably needs a debt counselor, not a debt consolidator.

Those are dangerous and skeezy sometimes, but a debt [00:57:00] counselor Somebody who can help her/them come up with a plan to manage and tackle the debt and hopefully climb out of it. If they can't, she might need to consult with a bankruptcy attorney, which I think is what she meant by financial attorney in the letter.

She might also need a divorce attorney. They're good at looking for assets, by the way. But I think maybe we've covered that, and I suppose that's up to her. Maybe she's not there yet. If she has a friend who's an accountant or something like that, she could also ask them and say, "Where else should I be looking?"

Because sometimes accountants or even divorce attorneys, they could do something like, "Well, here's where I'd look for hidden assets," or, "Here's where I'd look for certain funds." And you can do that kind of thing just to make sure that there's not a secret slush fund somewhere else.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh boy, the forensics on this thing are going to be, they're not fun.

This is going to take a while to untangle, I'm afraid. Look, if you want her to go to therapy, which I do agree would probably help her see things more clearly, or at least I hope it does, I would say something like, "Listen, you're going through a lot right now. I can see that it's confusing. I can see that it's overwhelming.

I would really love [00:58:00] for you to have someone to talk to." And you could even offer to find her some names if that would help her. You can check out the listings. You could do some searches in her area if she's open to that. But I'm guessing you're asking this question because your daughter is maybe resisting therapy or because you want her to go to tackle these deeper things, like you said, grief and instability and what to do about her marriage, but, like, you don't want to spook her, right?

So I guess my thought there is maybe don't talk too much about the specifics of what you hope she's going to discuss there or the particular outcomes that you're hoping she will arrive at in therapy. That's her process, and that's going to take care of itself. I would just listen to what she shares with you, and then you can say, "That sounds really hard.

This is very confusing, so intense. I'm sure it's tough to handle on your own. You know, it would be great if you had a professional to talk to about all that." I don't know what else you're supposed to do.

Jordan Harbinger: That sounds like the right move. Man, it must be so hard for our friend here to watch her daughter stick around with this bonehead and not be like, "Go to therapy and call a divorce attorney."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Especially given what our friend here has been [00:59:00] through herself. Yeah. She clearly has a different life experience.

Jordan Harbinger: Widowed at 46 with debt from a husband who overspent on crap and had no life insurance. I'm sure she's looking at all this and she's like, "Girl, listen to me."

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's also very interesting that both mother and daughter ended up with financially reckless men.

Wise Elder Harbinger: Well, okay.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, good point.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, how that happened, we don't know. It- maybe it's a coincidence, but it's a parallel that's kind of impossible to ignore in this story. Something else that I hope would come up in therapy, maybe the most important thing, honestly.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I think that's quite fascinating. If I were the daughter, I think I'd want to figure that out.

You know? Like, huh, my father spent recklessly. Now I've married a man who spends recklessly and hides information from me. What's the pattern here? Why did I pick this guy? How did I help create this situation somehow?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Those are powerful questions, but again, up to the daughter to decide if she wants to go there.

Maybe she doesn't.

Jordan Harbinger: Now I'm wondering if Mom has done any of this work herself and if it's helped her at all and if she can tell her daughter, "Hey, I've talked to somebody about this stuff, helped me a lot. I see the patterns, and I see you're running into this." You know?

Gabriel Mizrahi: For sure, and if she hasn't done [01:00:00] that, that might be interesting, too.

Is that part of the reason that she wants her daughter to go to therapy so badly?

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, interesting, because yeah, she does seem to be locating a lot of herself in her daughter's story, which is understandable given the parallels. But yeah, is guiding her daughter through this in a particular way also a way for her to come to grips with parts of her own story?

Maybe even to do some of this work by proxy. Maybe, maybe not. It's a good thing to keep an eye on. In any event, I'm very sorry things played out this way. My heart goes out to your daughter. It really does. But she has to find out about all this eventually. If this had continued, it would've only gotten worse, for sure.

So in a way, I'm glad your daughter's finding out now, as awful as it is. I hope she can be proactive, diligent, and courageous and start to take some action, whatever that looks like for her. Sending you both a big hug and wishing you all the best. Garrett, the Dogecoin enthusiast with the maybe cocaine addiction and a secret kid in Louisiana, not so much.

Good luck. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for the show if you want to jump into discussions. Lot of Feedback Friday threads in [01:01:00] there from people with a wide breadth of life experiences, and some experts in there. You can find all that on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do.

Take a moment, support the sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. If something's not working quite right for you, email us Jordan@jordanharbinger.com. We're happy to dig up codes for you and see what's going on. It really is that important that you support those who support the show.

And now for the recommendation of the week.

Lip Filla Clip: I am addicted to lip filler.

Jordan Harbinger: My recommendation of the week is the option to freeze your credit and that of your kids especially. If you don't know what this means, freezing your credit means restricting access to your credit report, which effectively stops anyone, including you or an identity thief, from opening new credit accounts in your name.

This is one of the most effective ways to prevent identity theft, and it is always 100% free by law here in the United States. You can also do this on behalf of your kids if they are minors, which helps [01:02:00] against what's called synthetic ID fraud, which is a whole other sort of ball of wax. That's where people use a kid's name and they add an adult bio to it, and then they open up credit cards in their name.

They buy cars, whatever it is. If you don't freeze the kid's credit, someone could theoretically use your kid's information to rack up debts, and you have to unwind those, I don't know, 18 years later or whatever when you find out it's all happened. It could take years to unwind, and this happens all the time.

People literally sell child bank accounts and identity information on the dark web for like 50 bucks. It's ridiculously easy to do. It's insane how easy this is to get away with. My feeling is better to do this for your kids now than take a risk and straighten it out later. Freezing your credit is free.

It's really fast. I think I was like, "Oh, God, I've got to set aside this Saturday morning to do it," and 15 minutes later or something like that, I was done. It's really also easy to undo and then redo. So if you're thinking like, "Oh, I'm going to buy a car in a couple months, I don't want to freeze it now," freeze it now.[01:03:00]

When you go to the dealership, you can unfreeze it the morning of, buy the car, and refreeze it that, later that day. It's, this is the financial equivalent of locking your front door. All you have to do is go to each of the credit bureaus' websites, Experian, Equifax, TransUnion, and you basically toggle a switch on there and you're done.

Really easy. This is big-time bang for your buck in terms of the time investment and the protection you get from doing it.

All right, this last segment is sponsored by BetterHelp, and we're going to do something a little different. We're going to air a short conversation that I recorded with my dad. This is his first time on the show ever.

It's the first time on any show, obviously. I guess I should point that out. He's not a professional. He's just my dad talking about his experience going to therapy at 80 years old, which is pretty wild. Little Father's Day segment in honor of all the dads out there and a testament to the power of talking, storytelling, and finding a new way to meet the many challenges of life at every stage.

This is the first time I'm having my dad on the show [01:04:00] just for, it's only going to be a couple of minutes. He's an acquired taste. He- Dad, thanks for coming on the show. I think a lot of people probably have wanted to hear from you for a long time. But I was reluctant to bring you on, you know? I don't know.

Don't make me regret this, Dad.

Wise Elder Harbinger: Well, the pay is kind of bad.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. For you. I'm fine. Yeah. I wanted to talk about therapy. The Father's Day segment here, this is a pretty good opportunity for us to talk about your experience with therapy. I was shocked, actually, when you asked me about BetterHelp. I was not expecting that.

I think your generation maybe was not super pro-therapy for a while.

Wise Elder Harbinger: No. There was a stigma-

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah ...

Wise Elder Harbinger: Way back when if you said you're in therapy, immediately people think, "Oh, man, he's cuckoo. He's crazy, man."

Jordan Harbinger: Right. Getting shocks on his- Yeah, right ... his brain. What did you think therapy was when you first started?

Wise Elder Harbinger: I thought something like you see on TV, where you're on a [01:05:00] couch and a guy's sitting there on a chair talking to you.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

Wise Elder Harbinger: And he asks you, "Why are you here?" And stuff like that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, well, that's kind of what it ended up being, I assume. Yeah. Except you're on the phone with BetterHelp. What surprised you about the therapy?

Wise Elder Harbinger: Finally, I got somebody to hear me out without interruptions.

Jordan Harbinger: I didn't want to interrupt you there. Oh. That would've been ironic.

Wise Elder Harbinger: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. What was the most uncomfortable part for you? Because you've changed a lot as I've grown older, but you're y- were never really a sharer of feelings probably. That's

true.

Yeah.

Wise Elder Harbinger: Finally, I had enough confidence to tell s- a complete stranger what my issues were at the time. Usually I wouldn't do that. You would try to solve the problem yourself.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And then if you couldn't-

Wise Elder Harbinger: Self-diagnosis, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, sure. And then what, if you couldn't do that, what do you do? Just bottle it up and-

Wise Elder Harbinger: Yeah

[01:06:00] get angry forever? You just bottle, right. Go play racquetball for an hour and a half.

Jordan Harbinger: That explains a lot. Okay. Yeah. Back in the day, would you have done this when you were 40 years old? No. Would 40-year-old you have done this? No?

Wise Elder Harbinger: No.

Jordan Harbinger: Those are the racquetball days.

Wise Elder Harbinger: That's right. That was the stress reliever.

Jordan Harbinger: Would your dad have done this? Would Grandpa have done this?

Wise Elder Harbinger: No.

Jordan Harbinger: No?

Wise Elder Harbinger: No.

Jordan Harbinger: What did he do to unwind?

Wise Elder Harbinger: He would go in the garage. He did a lot of work in the garage, working with tools. Wood. He would make things. That's what he would do. That was his stress relief, get away from the family- Yeah, he w- ... and go out in the garage.

Jordan Harbinger: He had eight kids, I get it.

Wise Elder Harbinger: S- Yeah, seven. Seven?

Jordan Harbinger: Whoops.

Wise Elder Harbinger: Sorry, yeah. It's all right. Thanks, Jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: Whoops. Well-

Wise Elder Harbinger: Yeah ... he actually did- We're going to cut that out, aren't we? Actually,

Jordan Harbinger: he did have eight kids. Yeah. But we're not going to talk about that.

Wise Elder Harbinger: That's true.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I wasn't planning on getting that into the weeds on this segment.

What advice would you give younger dads, you think?

Wise Elder Harbinger: Younger dads? Keep a well-balanced life. [01:07:00] Work and home life. You've got to balance it out. I was predominantly in the work side. Sad to say, but it's true.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I noticed.

Wise Elder Harbinger: Venturing my son, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. I did notice. So you regret that, you think?

Wise Elder Harbinger: Oh, yeah. I regret it all the time.

That's why I was the main instigator to coming out here.

Jordan Harbinger: To moving to California?

Wise Elder Harbinger: Oh, yeah. I wanted to see the grandkids be raised.

Jordan Harbinger: So for those who don't know, you and Mom moved from Michigan, where I grew up, to California across the street, and that's a big move.

Wise Elder Harbinger: It's a monumental move. I was 80 and Ma was 83.

All our friends were back home. Neighbors, people that we can trust, all back home. We had a house, and to be honest about it, we were on cruise control.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, sure.

Wise Elder Harbinger: You know?

Jordan Harbinger: It was supposed to be the easiest time where you don't have to ever think about anything.

Wise Elder Harbinger: Yeah. [01:08:00] But the issue was the grandkids. My ma was kind of reluctant 'cause she had all her friends in Michigan.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It

Wise Elder Harbinger: was kind of- It was a big move.

Jordan Harbinger: It is a big move. But it, yeah, that was the choice, right? It was like, "Do you want to see your grandkids every day or do you want to see them twice, three times a year?"

Wise Elder Harbinger: That's unacceptable to me. It's a lifetime opportunity for us to see the grandkids grow up. They're only going to grow up once.

So you've got to take it all in.

Jordan Harbinger: Was mom already having memory issues by the time you guys decided to move?

Wise Elder Harbinger: Yeah, but it wasn't as pronounced as it is today, 'cause ma all of a sudden, within a week or two, I noticed a big difference, and that's when I started saying, "Hey, we've got to go talk to the doctor," and- Yeah

"Well, there's nothing wrong with me. Oh, well," yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: It's interesting she said, "There's nothing wrong with me," because I remember when I came back a couple of years ago, I think Jen came with me.

Wise Elder Harbinger: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Mom had this big basket, [01:09:00] a lo- you know those plastic laundry baskets she used to always have? She had this big basket, and she goes, "I want you to go through this basket and the box in your room."

And I did it probably the first day I was there. And then at the end of the trip, she goes, "I'm really disappointed in you. I asked you to do one thing, and you didn't do it." And I said, "What is that?" And she goes, "Go through the basket and the box." And I said, "Mom, I did that on the first day." And she goes, "No, you didn't."

And then I said, "I did." And then she walked into my room, and she goes, "Oh, yeah." And then she came out, and she goes, "I think this is the beginning of something for me because I've been doing this." She said she forgot... She's been forgetting things. It's interesting that she kept telling me, "Oh, this is the beginning.

I'm starting to forget things." And then when you told her to go to the doctor, she said, "Oh, there's nothing wrong with me."

Wise Elder Harbinger: Sometimes when you live with somebody, the old saying, you can't see the trees through the forest or the forest through the trees. Yeah, 'cause she had her own activities. I had mine, and we would meet up for dinner.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:10:00] Which in our house back then was a bologna sandwich. Yeah. A bologna sandwich- Yeah ... the stale bread and no mustard.

Wise Elder Harbinger: Ma quit cooking years ago.

Jordan Harbinger: You're lucky.

Wise Elder Harbinger: Yeah. Right. Exact- Say that again. But yeah, I noticed the subtle differences, but then all of a sudden she gets in an accident.

Jordan Harbinger: She didn't even know she hit a mailbox, right?

Wise Elder Harbinger: No. She says, "I thought I hit something." I says, "Well, you did hit something 'cause the passenger side mirror's dangling down."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. "

Wise Elder Harbinger: Oh, maybe I hit a mailbox." So I drove up and down the street to find out 'cause I wanted to tell the people, "Hey, my wife hit your mailbox." I couldn't find any.

Jordan Harbinger: Was that hard on you, seeing your wife starting to forget things and-

Wise Elder Harbinger: Yeah, it's hard on me now.

Jordan Harbinger: Is that one of the reasons you went to therapy?

Wise Elder Harbinger: Uh, no. No, I wanted to... You know, with the move, that was big.

Jordan Harbinger: What do you wish Dad's talked about more? [01:11:00]

Wise Elder Harbinger: Probably their, their home life with people that they love and not guys at work. Guys at work probably knew more about the family than my family-

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, I see.

Yeah ...

Wise Elder Harbinger: about each other.

Jordan Harbinger: What do you think I do differently as a dad than you did?

Wise Elder Harbinger: Your interaction with your kids. You and Jenny are home, which is a good deal, and I like that. That's something I wish I woulda did.

Jordan Harbinger: That was impossible back then. You worked at Ford. You can't work from home.

Wise Elder Harbinger: But that's still, when I worked, I mean, I worked 12 hours a day- Yeah

six, seven days a week. That's unacceptable.

Jordan Harbinger: One thing I've learned through therapy is just that asking for support is okay, but I feel like I wasn't raised that way, but not because of you and Mom, but mostly because I think even my whole generation was raised to be self-reliant. You shouldn't lean on other people all the time.

Your generation was ignore problems, [01:12:00] sweep them under the rug. My generation was maybe we don't ignore the problem and we deal with it, but you deal with it on your own.

Wise Elder Harbinger: Yeah, that's true. If you had a problem, you put it on a back burner, but then you get another problem, and this is one thing I did learn through therapy is don't go through what if scenarios 'cause I was always the one that, "What happens if this one?

How about this?" I was all the different what ifs, and it cleared my mind when I was talking to the therapist. Just take one thing at a time. Be calm about it, and eliminate all the trash and the what if scenarios.

Jordan Harbinger: Did you find it easy to match with a therapist? I've gone through a few of them.

Wise Elder Harbinger: No, I- this guy was great.

Jordan Harbinger: Really? You got lucky the first

Wise Elder Harbinger: time? Oh, oh yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Good for you.

Wise Elder Harbinger: He was really great. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Do you think therapy would've helped you be a better father had you done it, I don't know-

Wise Elder Harbinger: Sure ...

Jordan Harbinger: 40 years ago?

Wise Elder Harbinger: Oh, yeah. [01:13:00] No doubt in my mind.

Jordan Harbinger: That wasn't even a thing for your generation, work-life balance, was it?

Wise Elder Harbinger: No.

Everybody I knew worked. In this particular industry, the automotive industry, it's hectic, and I launched new cars and worked in the assembly plants, manufacturing plants.

Jordan Harbinger: A lot of what I've learned about being a dad does come from you. Some of the stuff is, as you said, a negative example, but I think I took a lot of positive examples, too.

Work hard all the time. Yeah, I think one of the reasons that I am around for my kids so much is because- I remember that you had to work a lot. But I don't really blame you for that. I feel like you did the best you could at the time, and you did what you thought was right at the time.

Wise Elder Harbinger: Well, like I said, years ago, if you say you're going to talk to a therapist, everybody thought you're, "Oh, man, this guy's crazy," you know?

"Stay away from him. He's going to tell you all his problems." You know? That's the way it was.

Jordan Harbinger: So you said that BetterHelp helped you out, [01:14:00] but how? In what way? Was it just having someone listen or did it make things feel less bottled up?

Wise Elder Harbinger: No, what I liked about it was I was in my own environment, and it made me feel more comfortable.

And when I talked to the therapist, I talked to him like I was talking to a friend, a friend who never interrupted, was concerned about my issue, and he stated, "This is what I think should happen. This is what I think you should do."

Jordan Harbinger: W- were you skeptical at all about doing therapy- Yes ... from the internet?

Okay. What were you skeptical about?

Wise Elder Harbinger: Telling a complete stranger my problems.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Wise Elder Harbinger: That's what I was skeptical about, and it had to do with the taboo of ridicule, people talking behind your back. This is the old school. Like I said, back in the day, you solved your problems with alcohol or another means necessary.

Go play racquetball or whatever your [01:15:00] stress reliever is. That's what you did, but the only problem with that is you still have the problem.

Jordan Harbinger: You're just avoiding the problem. Yeah.

Wise Elder Harbinger: You just prolong it.

Jordan Harbinger: Did you think it would be awkward or, like, maybe you wouldn't know what to say?

Wise Elder Harbinger: No. What I really liked is that he was a good listener, and I could tell from his comments afterwards that he did listen and...

'cause he gave me the feedback.

Jordan Harbinger: Do you think you would have done the therapy if you had to go there, or was it b- it more convenient 'cause it was on the phone?

Wise Elder Harbinger: If I had to go there, the only bad thing about it is it's the taboo if everybody knows room 101 is where- Yeah ... the therapist is. Sure. And you go in there, and they say, "Oh, there goes another loony toony."

Jordan Harbinger: So discretion by doing it on the phone-

Wise Elder Harbinger: Yeah ...

Jordan Harbinger: is better for you. You have a lot of notes. Are those your therapy notes then?

Wise Elder Harbinger: N- yeah, those are my t- therapy notes. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Shocked that you can read those actually. What did you take notes on? You don't have to give specifics, but I'm [01:16:00] curious.

Wise Elder Harbinger: Yeah. Nothing's an emergency.

Calm down 'cause people get excited, and I... As you know. You? No. Me? Never. I don't get excited. No. Nah. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Never seen that.

Wise Elder Harbinger: Yeah. One thing also, he gave me answers that I really didn't think about 'cause it was a accumulation of problems, so I went from one problem to the next. Well, you had 80 years

Jordan Harbinger: to think

Wise Elder Harbinger: about it.

Yeah, 80 years. 80 years of issues.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Wow. What would you tell another dad your age who thinks therapy maybe is not for him?

Wise Elder Harbinger: I would say try it. Try it and see what happens, and you'll be surprised, 'cause I was surprised. You said I'm taking notes. Yeah, I was taking notes, and I'm glad I did because then I could go back and find out exactly [01:17:00] what he was talking about.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Do you think men wait too long to ask for help?

Wise Elder Harbinger: No doubt about it. That's why we got a lot of bars.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, probably. Thanks for coming on, Dad.

Wise Elder Harbinger: You're welcome. I'll send you my bill.

Jordan Harbinger: Sure, yeah. Have your agent invoice us.

Big thanks to my dad for jumping on and doing this one with me. I really enjoyed talking to him like this.

It was very new for us, as you could probably tell. I'm honestly quite touched that he gave therapy a try so late in life, and he's just getting so much out of it. I find it inspiring, really. And also, I love that he took all those therapy notes. How awesome is that? If therapy's something you've been thinking about trying or if hearing me interview my dad makes you think, "Wow, these two are actually pretty well-adjusted," you can support the show and get started at betterhelp.com/jordan.

That's it for this week. Go back and check out the episodes we did this week with David Epstein on constraints and Dr. David Maimon on cybercrime and our Skeptical Sunday on avocados, if you haven't [01:18:00] done so yet. Don't worry, you're still going to eat avocados. I should say that because people are like, "You've ruined coffee for me. Don't ruin avocados."

We're not going to ruin it. It's just a wild sort of backstory with the, the good old avos. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. Teaching you how to build that same thing for yourself for free over on our Six Minute Networking course.

It's great for professionals, no matter what stage you are in your career, and it's even good if you're retired. The course is free. There's no shenanigans. It's over on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts on the website. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show all at jordanharbinger.com/deals.

I'm @jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Insta @gabrielmizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own.

And I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on this show. Remember, we [01:19:00] rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. When a government bans words, people turn language into code. Laowhy86 reveals how Chinese citizens hide dissent in memes, emojis, and mythical creatures, and how AI is now learning to crack those codes.

Hear how this censorship cat and mouse game is getting darker on episode 1299 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

Laowhy86: We have to understand that China is an absolute totalitarian dictatorship, so these words to get around censorship are very necessary. And I want to say the punishments before we get into this, to understand what Chinese people face in terms of trying to express themselves.

If you spread rumors, you can get three years in prison. The second level of this is picking quarrels, making people have a debate or a discussion about something online. And if the government decides [01:20:00] that you're having a discussion about something they don't want you to talk about, that gets you five years in prison.

And then you have inciting subversion. And in China, that is absolutely, positively the worst thing you can do. I mean, to the Chinese government, that's like treason almost. So they can get you up to 15 years in prison, and people do face these jail times just for stuff they post online. So keep that in mind when we try to decode some of this language.

People are literally risking their freedom and lives to post these things and get their worries out there into the world. To drink tea means you actually go to the police station because the tradition is if you go into any sort of Chinese building or something, you're offered some tea or hot water in a cup.

Recently, the way of talking about the current economic situation in China has gotten people arrested. Talk egg prices. If you talk about specifically just eggs, "Oh, egg prices are really high right now," that's like how to express discontent that life is getting too uncomfortable. Talking about the leader is so off limits it's not even funny.

I mean, that's where you get the 15 years to just, [01:21:00] actually just disappearing. People that do bring up or ask the leader to step down, that is the worst thing you can do in China, period.

Jordan Harbinger: Laowhy86 reveals how Chinese citizens hide dissent in memes, emojis, and mythical creatures on episode 1299 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.