1350: Survived the Service, But Mom Makes Him Nervous | Feedback Friday

1350: Survived the Service, But Mom Makes Him Nervous | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the four-wheel drive crossover SUV, helping me tow this jackknifed car of your heaviest conundra up this perilous emotional mountain, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks: astronauts, neuroscientists, mafia enforcers. This week, we had none of those. We had Valerie Fridland. She's great, too. Author of Why We Talk Funny: The Real Story Behind Our Accents.

Actually, I really love this conversation with her. She's awesome. As you can guess, we talked about why we have accents, what our accents say about us, what data they contain about our social background, level of education, where we come from, all that. Really interesting conversation, so much so that I'm having her back on the show [00:01:00] really soon.

We also did a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on medical tourism. On Fridays, though, we take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and generally meddle in your lives like a couple of chocolate bar-wielding Lydios. Gabe, you're not in Chile anymore.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm back in LA, back in my mom's guest room, as you can see, as the prophecy foretold.

As

Jordan Harbinger: the prophecy foretold, yeah. This background is very different from your last one. Very different. I'm seeing moody lighting. There's a window with very tassel-y curtains. I'm seeing vintage bronze statuettes. I'm having flashbacks to our fateful night at Robin's 15 years ago.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Seriously. Shout-out to Robin for letting her grown-ass son crash with her every few months like some kind of weird sitcom that they refuse to cancel.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Well, honestly, shout-out to Robin for so many things, like giving birth to you, for example.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, what an unexpectedly touching thing for you to say at the top of the show. Yeah, and also by the time this episode comes out, she'll be recuperating from a little surgery she had to have, so shout-out to Robin for handling all of that like a champ.

[00:02:00] It has not been fun for her. I really feel for her. I love you, Mom.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm glad you're doing well.

Jordan Harbinger: I am actually sorry to hear that. I hope you're doing well, Robin. So I have so many fun memories of your mo- I won't even get into that here. I think we talked a lot ab- We talked about some of those nights before as well.

So get... That came out weird. I had many great nights with your mother.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Um,

Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, your stories are, they're going to be significantly more boring for the next month or so, eh, just sitting around in LA?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think they might be. My stories might tend toward the domestic for a few weeks. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you're going to go from, "I almost died in a car accident in Chile," to, "Oh, my mom blocked in my car in the garage this morning."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I got a parking ticket in Beverly Hills. You know, sometimes that is more stressful, depending on if you're trying to get to yoga on time, so I can-

Jordan Harbinger: Well- ...

Gabriel Mizrahi: find the drama anywhere, really ...

Jordan Harbinger: welcome home, home. Not sure where that is.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Honestly, it has been lovely to be here. I love traveling, and I also love coming back here.

I get to hang with my family. I get to see my new nephew, who is awesome, by the way. Amazing kid. I get to go to Hot 8, not have to worry about whether, [00:03:00] you know, to take out additional insurance on a rental car, all of that. There are upsides to coming back.

Jordan Harbinger: For sure. You always need that place to come back to, and that hot yoga abroad, man, just doesn't hit the same, does it, when it's in a year-

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's warm yoga at best.

I mean, I'll take what I can get, but it is not the same.

Jordan Harbinger: I wonder why they don't crank it up. Yeah, maybe because they use Celsius. I don't know. It could also be the fact that it's in a tent outside in a favela.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That wasn't what happened in Brazil, but you're thinking of the place in Portugal. Yes. I know what you're thinking of.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I tried to get you to come to the tent yoga. That's right. And, uh, you're getting ready to go to China this week, right?

Jordan Harbinger: I am going to China. We're going for a month. It should be interesting. My- So cool. Yeah, my turn to tell you some stories from the road. It's weird because I don't- I didn't want to leave my house here, but I have...

Actually, there's- my parents will be living here, uh, in my home. So I look forward to coming home to a filthy house that smells like my parents.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What do your parents smell like?

Jordan Harbinger: I hate to say this

There's an older person smell. Really? There just is. And it's not sort of anything, [00:04:00] like, gross. It's just older folks, look, they sweat less, they move less, so they're like, "Oh, I'm just going to wash my clothes less." And many of them, and I get that. And they keep really old clothes, a lot of older people, right?

They're like, "Oh, I like this jacket from 25 years ago." And it's like, I, I get it, but sometimes that stuff smells a little bit, I don't know, dusty. It's also been moved. It's been kept in a box for a long time. Yeah, I don't know. There's just something s- there's something like that that's a little, just a little dusty.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Mothballs and soup?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, a little bit. Little bit like mothballs and soup. Little bit of dust in there. I don't know. I feel, again, I feel bad saying this. It's not a bad smell. It's just distinct.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a different one from you and your, your little clan. That's right.

Jordan Harbinger: I got you. I don't know. I probably smell like Windex.

I got no room, no room to talk.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've been wanting to tell you for years that you do smell like a household cleaner, but whatever.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Are you excited about China? How are you feeling about it?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I'm excited. Uh, I, you know, for a while I didn't think I could even go to China, so it's been nice to sort of be past [00:05:00] that.

For a while I had some s- stuff with my visa where it was like, "Are you a journalist? You've covered China. Let's hear it. Uh, this isn't really that good. Okay, am I going to get arrested? No. All right, then fine." You know, that, had to go through all that rigmarole. But yeah, I'm excited about eating really good food.

I, w- you know, what I'm going to do is, is do a little lifestyle arbitrage, right? I... Getting a massage in the Bay Area, I don't know, it's a couple hundred bucks to get a good one. Getting a massage in China, that's like 20 bucks. So I'm going to get massages every day, and I'm going to get stretched by a trainer or a, you know, physical therapist-type person every, almost every day if I can, because I'm stiff as a board.

I'm not a mobile person. So I figure if I have somebody who can do that, you know, doing that here would be prohibitively expensive. It would take a ton of time. I'd have to drive somewhere to do it. Nah, in China I'm just going to handle all that, so- I love that ... I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Why are you going to China? What are you excited about?

I'm going to stretch-

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah ...

Gabriel Mizrahi: every day.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm going to stretch, exactly, and have someone walk on me for a discount.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You excited to expand your Mandarin?

Jordan Harbinger: You know, I am looking forward to expanding my Mandarin quite a bit. Every time I go to Taiwan, for example, it improves [00:06:00] a ton in just a few days. So having a month in actual China where I can read stuff, unlike Taiwan, is going to be super helpful.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I can't wait to hear how it because we're going to record a couple shows while you're over there, so I'm definitely going to need some stories. I want to hear what the People's Republic of China is like now.

Jordan Harbinger: I got to do something exciting. Get arrested. Get kidnapped for a third time. I don't know. I'm rolling the dice over here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Go to hot yoga in Yunnan. I don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: We'll see. One thing before we kick off. I want to give a quick shout-out to Cooper True, who turns two in two days, probably makes him one of our youngest listeners. Also probably listening against his will. Not that that's my problem. Anyway, if he's listening to Feedback Friday, sorry for corrupting you, Cooper.

Earmuffs, pal. Your Aunt Michelle wanted to surprise you with a special birthday shout-out, and we hear your mom, Emily, is doing a lot these days, balancing her career, childcare, life with a two-year-old. Not easy. And Emily, this one's for you, too. We hope Cooper has the best birthday filled with cake, presents, laughter, and one mercifully easy bedtime.

Happy birthday, Cooper, and Emily, thank you for being a dedicated listener. Also, we've been [00:07:00] hearing from some of you that there are no Skeptical Sunday episodes on Amazon Music. I don't know why. The episodes that are missing are between the one about test prep in late February and the one about electric vehicles in late March.

And then a lot of you have said that there's no more, and when are we going to start that again? Well, I got a surprise for you. In every other app, there's a ton. So check out any other podcast app and you should see tons of Skeptical Sunday episodes outside of Amazon Music. We have no idea why this is happening.

It's apparently only the Skeptical Sunday episodes that are not showing up in a lot of people's apps. We're looking into it. Unsurprisingly, there's almost no support for that app. So if anyone's using Amazon Music to listen, you are missing out on a bunch of episodes. Sorry about that. Hopefully, we'll get that fixed soon, but I really have no idea.

All righty, we've got some fun ones. We got the doozies. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag? "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, my 24-year-old stepson has a degree and has been working in retail full time since he graduated two years ago. He is very reserved and artistic, is a really good kid, [00:08:00] and doesn't drink or do anything else.

But he is now quitting the job without finding another job, and I am very afraid that he's just going to become a lump that sits in his room and plays video games. He does suffer from depression and has self-esteem issues. As his stepmother, I don't want to say anything to him because I don't want him to hold it against me, but I think his father should be stern with him and tell him he needs to get a job in the field of his degree.

We paid for most of his degree, and I know I will be very upset if I hear him screaming at his video game when he could be working a nine-to-five He'll get kicked off of our insurance at 26, but I don't want to wait that long to make a change. How would you handle this situation? Signed, Looking for the Right Stance to Deliver a Swift Kick in the Pants.

Do I rant, do a whole song and dance, or take the chance that my stepson might not glance at his finance and finally realize that this constant trance is creating a pretty concerning [00:09:00] forecast?

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting problem. Something so many parents of young adults are probably dealing with. So first of all, I'm sorry to hear that your stepson struggles with depression, self-esteem, being motivated.

I'm sorry for him, of course. I know it can be debilitating and terrifying, both to be depressed and to feel like you don't know what to do about it. And I'm sorry for you. You got to watch him kind of flail, not know how to help him, if it's even your place to help him. It's just a tough spot to be in. So there are kind of two approaches here.

One is more goal-oriented/punitive, which is basically, "Look, man, you're 24. You're not working. You're not contributing. In less than two years, you're going to be knocked off our insurance, and your expenses are going to go way up. You got to get your ass in gear, turn off your stupid Xbox, and get a job. Also, you can't live here forever."

Basically light a fire under his ass. Maybe there's a role for that approach. Maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing for him to feel like he has some pressure to turn the ship around. The other approach is more process-oriented, a little bit more empowering, which is you sit down with your [00:10:00] stepson, alone or with his dad, probably more than once This is an ongoing conversation and helping him figure out what he wants out of life, where he can direct himself, why he's stuck, all of that.

Obviously, that approach is going to take more time. It's going to require you guys to be patient and interested in what your son is going through. It's also going to mean hitting pause on quote-unquote solving the problem and first trying to appreciate the problem. Make it safe for him to tell you what he's struggling with, give him some space to open up about that, and just get clear on the issues before you guys start pitching, you know, apply for these kinds of jobs, save this amount of money, start scheduling your days, whatever.

I do think that approach is ultimately going to get you a lot further with him because the fact is you can't teach someone motivation, especially at 24 years old. He's an adult now. True motivation, it really has to come from the person, from inside. If your stepson is a lump playing video games in his room, there's a reason for that.

And if you have any shot [00:11:00] at helping him work through this, I think you need to help him get to the root cause rather than, you know, hey, go fill out 10 applications on monster.com. You got to help him find something he truly cares about so he can find this passion and motivation that you're hoping to see from him.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I totally agree. I also kind of worry about what outcome the first approach is going to generate, 'because they just put the screws to him, he might go out and get a job out of desperation, maybe even one in the field of his degree, which would apparently satisfy his parents. But is that a job he's going to love?

Is it going to address his depression, his self-esteem issues? I don't think so. He'll just continue to struggle and he might even be more unhappy. Who knows? So I'm with you. The second approach is definitely the way to go. But It's also going to require you to be willing to be a little lost and confused alongside your stepson, and I think to become friendlier with that uncertainty, even if it's creating some anxiety on your part.

We don't know what's causing your stepson's depression. We talk about this on the show from time to time. There are so many causes of depression. Obviously, it can be chemical, it can be [00:12:00] situational, it can be existential. It could be a question of, you know, mindset or belief. It could be a defense. It could even be a message to you guys to some degree.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it could be several of these things at once.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have a hunch that part of his depression is a response to the anxiety he probably feels about not having a direction. The video games, look, they're fun, but they can also be a way to distract and to numb yourself to some extent, and it might also be informed by a more general struggle with this very uncertainty.

Jordan Harbinger: Right, which might only get reinforced by the urgency with which our friend here wants him to just, you know, figure it all out.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There is no moving through big transitions or making sense of a crisis without being willing to be confused, scared, lost, right? But if what you're hearing from your parents is, "You better figure this out, because watching you flounder is distressing to us," how is he going to feel about floundering himself, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a good point, but also just to be clear, the goal isn't to just make it okay for him to flounder forever. It's not about removing all stress from this guy's life. The goal is to be [00:13:00] in a process with him.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. There's productive floundering, and then there's, you know, avoidant floundering.

Jordan Harbinger: And productive floundering, to me, looks like, okay, I don't know what I want to do for work. I'm not sure what I care about, but I'm reading a bunch of books. I'm reaching out to people in interesting fields. I'm surrounding myself with good people. I'm getting in shape, whatever it is. I mean, I feel like I went through some version of this, and I got a job as an English teacher in another country, and then when I c- I got home, I was like, all right, law school.

It was, you just get clarity. You get the break you need, but you don't feel like you're just sitting on your butt decaying. You're moving forward in some ways.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There are better and worse ways of being lost, and this guy could be a student of his mini crisis, but right now it sounds like he's not.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly.

Right now he's just playing hooky. Moving him into the student role, that's the aim My sense, he's, he's probably freaking out and just disappearing into Grand Theft Auto, which by the way, the new one comes out in November, so you better get a handle on this before that shit comes because everybody going to be hooked on that, including me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You thought he [00:14:00] was screaming in his room now, just wait till he's pulling off a bank heist in 4K. It's going to be chaos.

Jordan Harbinger: about GTA. I've been a fan since the first one came out. You love GTA. I was like 14. Still Fire did some of the voices in Grand Theft Auto III, no big deal.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah. That's one of your stranger side jobs. I completely for- That's hilarious. Are you just hyping the game 'cause you get royalties?

Jordan Harbinger: You know, I don't get royalties. It was a non-union gig. Oh, okay. I did get paid out the nose for it at the time though, because I was like 20-something years old, and I remember, I remember I was like 25, 26 years old, and I ended up getting this, the gig to do some of the voices.

And what it was was they were like, "Oh, hey, we need some pedestrians." And I was like, "Oh, I can do pedestrians." So I roll in there. I didn't audition or anything, and they were like, "We need all these different..." I forget there's a term for this, but it's like, "Oof, ah, no," like stuff like that, like really basic- I

Gabriel Mizrahi: think they call it effort sounds?

Jordan Harbinger: Something like that, yeah. I don't know if that's exactly what it is, but you're right. It's not only, it wasn't only effort sounds. It was basically if you drive a car in GTA on a sidewalk, you're going to have [00:15:00] people jumping out of the way, and some of them are going to be female screaming, and some of them are going to be men, males, whatever, going like, "Whoa!"

You know, that kind of thing or oof. And then it's also like hot dog vendor, you need a nerd. They needed a radio bit, all these different things. So I was doing one, and they're like, "Can you do this one? Can you do this one? Can you do this one? How about this one?" And then I was doing all that, and the director goes, "Hey, can we try something?

How much energy do you have left?" I'm like, "I'm good. I don't have anything else for the day." He's like, "Try this," and he brought in another script, and it was way more involved, and it was this Russian gangster guy. I was doing the voice for the mini games, gun fights, missions, and I was like, "Oh, this is different."

He goes, "Yeah, you're good at the other stuff, and I... Basically this is our last, this is one of our last characters, our major characters. I just, I feel like you could just do it." So I did it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I love that you got to cosplay as John Malkovich in Rounders for GTA.

Jordan Harbinger: It kind of was because I'm like, "Hey, I don't really speak

Gabriel Mizrahi: Russian."

Do you remember what the lines were?

Jordan Harbinger: There was I'll kill that son of a bitch for you But it's like- ... is that Russian? Not [00:16:00] really.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No.

Jordan Harbinger: They didn't care.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's sort of generically, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Ambiguous, possibly Albanian something, something Eastern gangster. And then it's like, "You're cheating, you son of a b-," like, and stuff like that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Some vaguely Azerbaijan.

Jordan Harbinger: A lot of screaming because I got shot, a lot of screaming at other people to shoot other people. It's been a long time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: How do you scream in Russian?

Jordan Harbinger: I'd show you, but I have to call my agent, and we'd have to negotiate the, uh-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude goes from, "No, I don't get royalties, it was a non-union job," to a freaking diva in, like, five seconds.

Jordan Harbinger: So what's funny about that, that gig was the, after I did the Russian one and after I did all those voices, and we're on, I don't even know, whatever hour, two or three of me yelling, screaming, and doing all these voices. They're like, "We actually have one other minor character who's a drug dealer at a club."

And they're like, "Can you do," and this is, I know this ain't woke, but I don't care. It's, this is a long time ago. "Can you do a gay voice?" This is 2008. Or I guess we already did that. Oh, interesting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh-huh.

Jordan Harbinger: And I said, "Yeah, but I've been yelling in Russian this whole time." And they're like, "Oh, [00:17:00] even better. It's a gay voice of a guy who's been yelling."

And they're like, "It, he does work in a club- ... so maybe you yell a lot." And I was like, all right. So there's this character who's, like, a meth dealer in a club in Grand Theft Auto III, a gay dude, and that's me after screaming for f- I don't know how, however many hours, so it's very smoky and ridiculous, and they loved it.

Do you remember the lines

Gabriel Mizrahi: for that guy?

Jordan Harbinger: I don't. I wish I did. In fact, I actually asked for all of my audio from Rockstar, and they sent it to me, but it was back when everything was on CDs, and the CD is just gone. It's not like it's in the cloud. I don't know. If anybody's a Grand Theft Auto player and they have Grand Theft Auto III, those voices that, uh, well, yeah, some of them are mine.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Now I understand more why you still play this game and you have such an attachment to it. I've completely forgot that you voiced some of the characters, but it's so funny to me that- At 10:00 AM you're prepping interviews with CEOs and neuroscientists, and at like 4:00 PM you're mowing down pedestrians in a video game.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, pretty much. We do contain multitudes, Gabe.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, it's great. It's just one of the many contradictions [00:18:00] that I love about you.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, thank you. I feel seen. And the thing about feeling seen is your stepson- ... could start to develop a new lens on this chapter, which is, "My parents are willing to be in this uncertainty and confusion with me, and I have some time to figure it out if I'm taking proactive steps to finding my path."

So when the time is right, I would sit down with your stepson and I would tell him, "Listen, I know you're a little down these days. I know you're confused. I know you didn't like your last job. I can understand that. Maybe it's hard to feel confident about your next step right now. I'm here to help you however I can.

If you want to talk things out, I'm here for that. If you want to kick around ideas for career paths that are interesting to you, I'd love that. If you just want to vent and be lost with me for a minute, I'm here for that, too. But I really want to help you move through this chapter because I know you're capable of a lot, even if you don't feel that way these days, and I know there's a really great life waiting for you where you're doing something you enjoy and you're making money and you're independent, and I know that's going to feel great."

Something like that, and see how he responds. If he jumps right in, he's willing to open up, [00:19:00] great, you're off to the races. If he's like, "Eh, thanks. I don't know. Maybe," then he unpauses his video game and a week goes by, then maybe you need to be a little more pointed like, "Okay, I know this isn't fun to talk about, but it is really important, so let's grab lunch, you and me tomorrow.

Let's talk, or let's make time over dinner to talk with your dad about it. We're a team. Let's get into this together." But if you try that a few times and you get nowhere, then I would change gears. I would say, "Ugh, I can see you're not ready to talk about this, but I just want to point out because I love you and I want to see you succeed You not wanting to chat about this is making it hard to help you, and pretty soon it's going to put you in a really scary spot once you have to cover expenses and find your own place and all that.

Hint, hint, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's where that first version of the conversation might come into play.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. More as a tactic if he doesn't respond than as the initial go-to strategy, in my opinion.

Gabriel Mizrahi: By the way, you could even say to your stepson, "I understand if you don't want to talk about this, and I'll respect that, but can you maybe help me understand why you don't want to talk about it?"

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:00] Yeah, I like that because if he answers that question even a little, then they'll already be taking some steps to the root of the problem. And if he just flat out refuses to engage with you, I guess you and your husband are going to have to decide your position on all this. Like, is there an age at which you tell him, "Hey, sorry, you got to move out and be on your own"?

If he gets to 26 and he still doesn't have a solid job, are you going to pay for his health insurance? How long are you cool with him holing up in his room and playing video games when he should, you know, be working? Every parent's different. Also, he's not your biological son, so this might be his dad's call.

So maybe another question in the mix here is how can I help my husband find the best possible approach with his son? How can I help him empower his son while also setting clear expectations?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think that's actually a big part of her dilemma, Jordan, because she clearly has a stake in this kid's life.

She cares about him. He also lives in their house, so his whole vibe, his lifestyle, his choices, the screams that they hear through the wall, they all affect her. But you're right, this is not her child biologically, I [00:21:00] mean. So this might not be her responsibility in the same way.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, we don't know when she married his dad, but she might not have been around during some crucial years in his development.

Even if she was in the picture, she might not have had a huge influence on him as his stepmom. I don't know. So it's possible there really isn't much she can do here, in which case her question might also be about how to cope with watching somebody that she cares about struggle a little bit. So this whole situation might be forcing her to go, "Okay, there's only so much I can do, both because he's my stepson and because he's 24 years old," and potentially make peace with some qualities in her stepson and possibly also her husband that make her feel some type of way.

So I hope that you can get through to your stepson, I really do. I think he's lucky to have you guys looking out for him. He's lucky to have parents who care, but at the end of the day, tough pill to swallow, I know, but you cannot light a fire under someone else. You can stoke it, sure. You can throw some lighter fluid on it, great.

But you can't build it from scratch. That's up to your stepson, as it should be. So I hope you can support him in doing that for himself. Sending you all a big hug [00:22:00] and wishing you all the best. You know what you will want sitting in your basement all summer? One of the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back

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Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Traveling Gabe .

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, I love that.

Hobo Gabe should- ... be your new nickname. Can we make that a thing, please?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Vag-Gabe-ond?

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, Vag-Gabe-ond, also a winner. Now I'm picturing you on the side of the road with a stick and it- what are those, like a, is there a [00:25:00] knapsack hanging out? What is that thing, that little bundle at the end of the stick?

Gabriel Mizrahi: A bindle?

I think it's called a bindle. Wow,

Jordan Harbinger: bindle. Yeah . That's a good word. That's a word you will never use- Yeah ... people.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Prepping the show from a boxcar like some kind of Depression-era agony aunt. I could do it. I could see it.

Jordan Harbinger: Uncle Jordan and Hobo Gabe has a nice ring to it. We need some fresh greetings on the show.

Gordon and Jabe still makes me chuckle, getting a little played maybe.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My father-in-law passed early this year. My husband got an email three weeks later from his sister, the executor of the will, that said, "Morgan Stanley manages Dad's rollover IRA. Since we are all listed as primary beneficiaries, Morgan Stanley will contact each of us individually to discuss how you would like to receive the disbursement, rollover, check, et cetera, of your one-third of Dad's rollover IRA monies.

Please find attached to this email a copy of Dad's trust, promissory note, and will." My husband was contacted by the firm. We had a bunch of phone appointments with them where he listed me as a trusted contact and beneficiary on our portion [00:26:00] and filled out all the documents. He was assured the firm was working on transferring the funds to each of the three siblings' accounts.

Then two months later, he gets a call and a subsequent email from his sister saying that he was deleted from the IRA. The email read, quote, "Dad's Morgan Stanley account is not part of his trust. Therefore, as trustee, I have no control over the account or its distribution. Please find attached the Morgan Stanley documents that I referred to in our call regarding the subject.

Included is the January 2026 monthly account statement, a beneficiary designation form with this date from 2002, and a second beneficiary designation form dated 2006."

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, lots of procedure here. This lady keeps receipts.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We had the okay from Morgan Stanley, saw the documents that named the three siblings, had a plan, did the paperwork, and then this?

His sister, who was taking care of their father, said that everything that came in the mail had all three children's names on it. But they [00:27:00] found another note that only named the two sisters. This is confusing. Why would that delete my husband? Maybe their dad, whose memory was failing, just forgot to name him in that one note.

My husband asked his two sisters if they would make it right, withdraw the money, and give him his share. They're willing to meet him halfway as a gift, so no taxes have to be paid. Still, my husband and I are wondering if this is becoming a legal situation. We would benefit more from the whole amount, of course.

Is something fishy happening with Morgan Stanley or the sisters? What's our next best step? Are my husband's hands tied here? Do we need to get a lawyer? Or do we just take the half that they're offering? Signed, a frustrated wife trying to play nice With some by the book siblings who might or might not have designs on what their father left them, which was poorly described.

Jordan Harbinger: Ah, man, this is very curious. First of all, I'm very sorry to hear about your husband's father. I'm sure that's [00:28:00] a big loss for you guys. Second, I'm sorry you guys have had drama with the estate. Whether it's just an innocent mistake or there's something nefarious going on, it just sucks that you and your husband have to deal with all this and you can't enjoy the full inheritance.

Gabe, what vibe are you getting from all this? You think the siblings are pulling something shady?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Honestly, it's a little hard to tell, but not really. This sounds up, on the up and up.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I don't really think so either. Obviously, look, im- impossible for us to know for sure, but neglecting to include an account in a trust, that is such a extremely common mistake.

It happens all the time. It can create a lot of headaches, and by the way, that is just one reason you need to make sure that your will and trust are airtight. I'm happy to refer anyone in California to the person who handled mine. She's amazing. Anyone outside of California, well, hype our sponsor, Trust & Will, trustandwill.com/jordan for 10% off the legal documents.

They're great at what they do as well. The fact that all three siblings were listed on every other document, that just sounds to me like your husband wasn't deliberately removed by his father from this IRA. If he [00:29:00] wanted to cut his son out of the estate, I'm assuming he would've removed him from every document, definitely from the will, but he didn't.

So this, it's actually just really sounds like an oversight.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, the way your sister-in-law is communicating about all of this, she's being so thorough and rigorous, showing you all the paperwork. That sounds pretty transparent to me. This does not read obviously like somebody who's trying to con you.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally. Also, the fact that they're offering to give you guys half up to the point where the taxes start eating away at the gift, that means they're acknowledging that the situation is unfair. They're not going, "Sorry pal, it wasn't in the trust. It's all ours." And I highly doubt that Morgan Stanley is up to anything fishy.

On the other hand, you know- Yeah ... I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We got to go there, I guess.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, years of doing Feedback Friday has made me realize that anything is possible. So I, I do suppose there is some chance that the sister is cloaking a dodgy move in all this procedural jargon like, "Look, we can't possibly be doing anything wrong.

We're just following all the rules."

Gabriel Mizrahi: I hear that, but I feel like when you're trying to steal your sibling's share of an estate, you don't send them the account statements and the beneficiary [00:30:00] informa- Like, if this was your plan from the start, you wouldn't even begin the process of distributing it into thirds, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Unless it occurred to the siblings that they could get more once they learned the IRA wasn't in the trust and then they hatched the plan. Yeah. But I don't know. I mean-

Gabriel Mizrahi: I suppose that's possible. It just seems unlikely given the facts here, but yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Here's the thing, I'm confused about this random note That she mentioned.

Yeah, what

Gabriel Mizrahi: is that?

Jordan Harbinger: The one that, it doesn't have her husband's name on it. What are you talking about?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hold it. Yeah, what are we talking about? Like something he wrote in the margin of a draft of the will? Are we talking about a Post-it Note? Like a s- a little note that he left to himself in his j- I don't understand.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. What is there, there's a folded napkin in his desk drawer? I mean, whatever it was, I can't imagine that matters very much. I, I'm, I'm no estate planning expert or law- uh, lawyer in this area at all, but my understanding is that what matters is the will, the trust, and the beneficiary forms and what they say.

When you draw up a will, if you do it right, it's like every other page has a signature and it's notarized. There's thumbprints. I mean, it's airtight. Every detail is accounted for. Some random note you find in your dad's sock drawer After the fact, it's just not going to make a difference.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:31:00] Yeah, that's my understanding as well.

But if an asset is not in a trust, to your point, then the executor might not have any legal control over how it's dispersed or the obligation to do it. Doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do, but they might not be able to. I don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: Probably true. But regardless, it sounds like your husband was supposed to inherit his third of the asset.

So I would hope, and I would do the same thing for my sibling if I had one, I would hope that your husband's siblings would find another way of making this right. That said, I totally get why they said, "Hey, we want to do right by you, but hey, are we also supposed to pay, I don't know, 28 grand in taxes now on this thing?"

That's not fair to them. And again, this is why you need to make sure your estate planning is airtight, people. So meeting him halfway as a gift, that might be the best they can do in this crappy situation without giving a bunch of dough to Uncle Sam.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I think they were all put in a bad spot by this mistake.

The problem is that still doesn't seem fair to our friend and her husband, because it wasn't their mistake either.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. So here's what I'd do. I'd really make sure that this is in fact an admin error. You guys can do that [00:32:00] by reading the will and trust, confirm the IRA was not in fact included in the trust.

If the will's 300 pages and full of legalese, you could drop it into some AI software, give it the facts of your situation, ask what the implications are for the disbursement of the IRA. It's not going to be that long. It's usually really simple. I mean, I don't know how complicated this estate is, but it doesn't sound like we're talking tens of millions here, so it's not probably going to be that complex.

Your best bet though would be to book a consult with an estate attorney, ask them to review the will and trust and advise you. They'll be able to tell you what's possible, what's fair, possibly even mediate a conversation with the siblings, not necessarily even in an adversarial way. I would also keep talking to the siblings.

Keep being collaborative, keep being peaceful, keep looking for solutions. Don't turn this into a fight unless it really has to be. If I were your husband, I would say, "Hey, guys, this is clearly a mistake in the trust. I'm sorry it's created all these headaches. All three of our names were listed on every other document.

I think it's clear what Dad intended. I'm asking you to just do what's right and disburse my third to me, just as I would do for you. [00:33:00] We can figure out the taxes thing together."

Gabriel Mizrahi: There have to be other creative solutions to this tax problem.

Jordan Harbinger: There are, I agree, and I'm also kind of confused why they aren't just talking about that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, if the taxes make it impossible to give him his full third, can they, like, pitch in for a major expense like a house renovation or something? Or take them on a few vacations, or give him this gift in several payments under the taxable threshold over a period of, like, three, four, five years or something like that?

I just feel like there are ways to make up this difference that will not create a huge burden for the siblings.

Jordan Harbinger: That's exactly what I was thinking. They could also all agree to split the additional taxes on the gift if it's easier, since they all share in the estate, and this was the dad's oversight. So I'm very sorry things played out this way.

It sucks, but I'm holding out hope that your in-laws, who don't sound overtly sketchy, will work with you guys to make this right Hope your husband's holding up okay, and I hope you resolve this soon without unnecessary arguments and drama. It's, Gabe, it's amazing to me how much trouble stuff like this can cause in families.

I mean, you've [00:34:00] probably heard of... I, I certainly have heard of people not talking to each other after an estate, a will is disbursed because of an oversight like this, and a sibling's like, "Well, looks like I'm get- I'm taking the house," and I'm, you know, "Oh, I w- we're supposed to sell it, but now I'm not going to, and you're not getting anything," or, "Oh, we didn't have our youngest sibling on the will, and we're just going to screw them out of it."

It's just like the amount of greed that goes on when people pass away is crazy. I've heard of people who, during the funeral, basically go to the deceased person's house and start going through the drawers. I mean, it's, it's, it can get pretty sick out there. So I really hope you're not dealing with anything even remotely like that, and good luck.

By the way, you can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, you're conflicted about having children after looking at the data about how men behave, or you're trying to help a close friend regain parental rights to her daughter after signing them over to her controlling mother, hit us up, friday@jordanharbinger.com.

We're here to help, and we keep [00:35:00] every email anonymous. Oh, you know what's a great use of that maybe stolen inheritance? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back

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Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, just over a year ago, I accepted my first management role, leading a team of about 10 people in an organization that was new to me. Up to that point, my career had followed a pretty consistent pattern. I was a reliable and dedicated employee who truly enjoyed my work.

I was known for doing my work well, being easy to work with, and not creating problems for others. I often got the sense that my supervisors trusted me [00:38:00] and saw leadership potential in me. They encouraged me more than once to apply for management roles, but I never did, partly because I was still early in my career and partly because I genuinely enjoyed focusing on my own work and doing it well I also had some hesitation about the people management side of leadership.

Things like scheduling, coaching, and conflict resolution didn't naturally appeal to me. Last year, our family relocated, which required me to leave a role I loved and was good at. After a long and discouraging job search, I was offered a supervisory role. I was hesitant, but the encouragement I'd received made me think maybe this is the next step.

Maybe I can grow into this. Almost immediately, though, it felt like a bad fit. The stress of managing people and feeling responsible for them hit me hard, especially around staff failing to adhere to basic expectations, like attendance and timeliness. Interestingly, handling the occasional major issue, like staff [00:39:00] conflict or communication issues, feels heavy but manageable.

But the minor issues, like complaints about janitorial staff missing a trashcan or how loudly a colleague's phone rings, feel impossible to deal with. As a result, I experienced a level of anxiety and depression that I hadn't dealt with before. I understand and appreciate the qualities of effective leadership.

Things like relationship building and empathy come naturally to me, but skills such as delegation, decision-making, coaching, I understand how to do these in theory, but in practice, it feels like a hot and itchy costume. It looks okay from the outside, but inside I'm incredibly uncomfortable and can't wait to shed the costume at the end of the day.

Still, I pushed myself to stick it out, telling myself that the first year in any new role is the hardest, and that I owed it to myself to give it a fair shot.

Jordan Harbinger: Good on you, man. I appreciate that mindset a lot.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Now that I'm a year in, some things have improved. I've learned a [00:40:00] lot, and I'm coping better with the daily anxiety.

I'm really proud of the way I've handled many situations and conversations, but it still doesn't feel right. I've had enough experience now to understand that I don't actually want to become the kind of person this role requires. It's not just specific leadership skills that I'm missing. It's the motivation and willingness to stretch myself into those skills, and that feels important to acknowledge, especially because my team deserves a good supervisor and a leader who is genuinely invested in the work.

So I started job hunting again. Given the current job market, I'll likely be moving into a role with less responsibility and probably less pay. I'm fortunate that I can absorb that financially, but it still feels like a step backward.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I get that. Tough bind.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And it's hard not to frame all of this as a failure.

How do I explain to potential employers why I'm stepping out of a management role without raising red flags? Once I take the step [00:41:00] back, am I doomed to a lesser role for my career? And how do I make peace with this internally? Signed, a reluctant leader stepping out of the game because being a manager only made me inflamed.

Jordan Harbinger: Good questions. So first of all, I'm sorry that this leadership role did such a number on you. Being depressed and anxious for a year because of your job, I mean, those are important signals. Obviously something was not right here and you had to make a change. That said, I am quite impressed that you stuck it out for so long.

I think that says a lot about you. You didn't run away as soon as things got hard. You didn't avoid the challenge. And so even if you're not meant to be a manager, or at least this manager, you grew a lot. That's a gift. So I'm kind of of two minds here On one hand, if you don't enjoy managing people, if being in a leadership position is not your jam, that's fair.

In fact, just to put you at ease a little bit, I love owning my own business and I love being responsible for our results and our sponsors and the content of the show. I do not love managing people. That is not who I really am. I don't know. I'm just a- I'm open about that. I [00:42:00] think it's fine, and I've hired people as a result who are self-directed, largely self-sufficient, good leaders, independent.

Those are the people I need to work with. I don't like checking up on people and micromanaging their crap. I think it's awful. There are times I get involved in stuff, don't get me wrong, but I'm like you. I bristle at having to be on top of people too much, and I also find it to be just, like, a really big waste of time when there are other people that don't need that.

And I'm not even dealing with some of the BS that you had to. I'm not dealing with Marjorie who has the most annoying ringtone on Earth or talking Brett from accounting down because he's upset the janitor didn't throw away his CLIF Bar wrappers. That would drive me up the wall, man. I get it. Gabe, I'm imagining everyone in this office with their heads down working on spreadsheets or whatever, and then all of a sudden for the sixth time that morning, "You're here.

There's nothing I fear." And they're like, "Marjorie, your phone. Where is she?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: I could, uh... First of all, I can see why they hired you for GTA.

Jordan Harbinger: I know. You thought that was just Celine Dion. [00:43:00] I didn't sample that. That was just me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That was beautiful.

Jordan Harbinger: Believe it or not.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And meanwhile, Marjorie's in the break room completely oblivious.

She's, like, making herself a latte, has no idea that

Jordan Harbinger: she's driving people insane. Yep, just letting it ring at full volume. You know what this reminds me of? So ye- years ago, I used to, when I was in LA more, I used to go to breakfast as much as I could with Cal Fussman and Larry King. This is pre-pandemic, because I used to go to Nate 'n Al's every day.

And it was a cool breakfast because you'd show up, and Larry King ate cereal, which he left at the restaurant- ... which is so weird, right? Because you go to a restaurant, you can have anything you want, and they have his box of cereal. Wait, what do

Gabriel Mizrahi: you mean? He had his own cereal that he would leave there?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What was the cereal? Do you remember?

Jordan Harbinger: I don't remember, but it was basically Cheerios. I remember it being like, okay, that's what he eats for breakfast every day. Of course. He loves

Gabriel Mizrahi: Kix.

Jordan Harbinger: And, yeah, other people had bagels and stuff, and I would show up and eat actual protein and a little bit of carbs. And it was, it was kind of fun, because sometimes you'd show up and it would be a bunch of writers, or sometimes you'd show up and it'd just be them, and sometimes you'd show up and it would be, like, Arnold Schwarzenegger.

It was really something.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:44:00] Cool breakfast.

Jordan Harbinger: It was fun, yeah. And you could ask him about, like, OG radio stuff or whatever. And they had a lot of stories of people that you've heard of, but they'd be like, "Oh yeah, Muhammad Ali this and that." And you're just like, wow, they, like, knew these guys. So it was, it was fun because we were friends, but also they were legends and they were from a different time.

Speaking of which, they would leave their phones, this is what the point of the story is. They would leave their phones on the table, and it would ring, and it would be a full volume, like that ringer. Of course those guys- Oh, I

Gabriel Mizrahi: forgot about that one. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Or, like, the actual OG phone bell ringer on the iPhone.

And they would pick up their phone, look at the screen, never take the call. Never And then they would put it back down, not silenced, just letting it ring. And I'm like, "You guys know that you can push any button on the phone to silence the ringer." And they were like, "Oh, yeah. Well, I have to do that next time."

And they would, they never did it. They would just pick up, it would ring, first of all, for a solid 30 seconds because they were just [00:45:00] finishing their sentence, and then they would turn around and pick up their phone, flip it back over, look at the screen, put it back down, and it would just ring to completion until it hit voicemail.

And if the person called again, same thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, that's killing me.

Jordan Harbinger: And I'm like, "You guys are in a restaurant , first of all. Like, you know you can silence calls, guys." And yeah, Larry's like, "Oh, I'm going to have to try that." And it's just like, that wasn't quite what was-

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, like you can try it right now. Like right now would be the perfect time to try that.

Jordan Harbinger: Larry's funny, man. Uh, Cal and Larry are both hilarious. I remember one day he told me this story. He's like, "Yesterday I had to go, I went to the Apple Store with my son." By the way, Larry King was like 81 or whatever, and he had a son that was 15, I think. So he's like, "I went to the Apple Store and he got an Apple Watch.

And I was like, 'Did you ask the man how it works?'" And he's like, "Dad, I don't, I don't have to do that." And he's like, "The youngsters, they know all about the technology." That's, because he was saying that because I knew how to silence the iPhone, and I was just thinking- ... how did you not accidentally figure this out just by picking up your phone when [00:46:00] it rings?

How did you not, how did you not by mistake silence it many times? Anyway.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Breakfast started off sounding so awesome, and now it sounds so annoying. Like it's hit, hitting all the notes.

Jordan Harbinger: It's, uh, pluses and minuses, my friend. Yeah, it, I wouldn't have made it a daily occurrence. No, that really was, it was, I was blessed to have time with those guys while they were around.

Cal's still around. Larry i- has passed, but it was great. I could ask him for advice on interviewing and it was, it was wholesome and valuable. But also, I remember one thing he told me was, uh, "You know, Jordan, one thing that's worked for me, I got to listen to your show. One thing that's worked for me is dash a little personal detail into your stories because the audience, you're there every week, they want to know a little bit about you.

You bring the audience into you." And I remember thinking that's literally what every podcast is, right? But then you got to think, when Larry King started on radio in the '50s or whatever, radio announcers had a fake transatlantic accent and they just talked and they read something that was scripted for them, or [00:47:00] maybe they eventually had callers in the '70s and stuff, right?

But they weren't like, "Here's a thing about my personal life." That never happened. That was unprofessional. So he was almost innovating and maybe was actually innovating by talking about his wife or talking about his kids or talking about something that happened to him that day. Nobody had ever done that before on the radio.

That was kind of his thing. So I thought that was kind of interesting that he was like, "Hey, I'm giving you this big secret that helped me make my career. Talk about yourself a little bit and let the audience into your life." That was novel. Thought that was kind of interesting coming from him. Anyway, all that to say, it's perfectly all right if you don't want to manage a bunch of annoying babies in the office.

At the same time- I do think your response to this job, the extreme depression, anxiety, suffocation, inauthenticity, I do think that's worth studying a little bit more just, you know, in the interest of appreciating what these stressors brought out in you because what I'm hearing is that there were two things about you that this job pushed up against, feeling [00:48:00] responsible for other people and participating in conflict, which to be fair, hard for most people.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But definitely harder for some than for others.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, if you grew up in a house where, for example, you were responsible for taking care of a chaotic parent and an employee comes to you and is like, "Clarence didn't empty my trash bin last night. How dare he?" That kind of thing could make you want to scream because suddenly you feel the way you did when you were young.

Or if you're a person who prides yourself on being low drama and self-sufficient and easy to work with, and one of your employees comes to you like, "I'm so overwhelmed, I need help," that might put you in touch with some interesting feelings. Maybe you feel turned off, resentful, who knows, maybe even a little envious that they just feel so comfortable coming out and saying they need something from you.

I'm just giving you two random examples. I'm making those up. I have no idea if they apply to you. Well, the second one might. I'm sure you know better. So the way you responded to those interactions, I'm sure they also played a huge role in how they played out, how taxing they were, what you brought home with you at the end of the day.

And I do think that that's very useful to unpack [00:49:00] because we take these qualities and patterns with us wherever we go, even if you don't take another management position, for example.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I totally agree. I'm just thinking about this thing she said about how the major stuff was sometimes easier than the minor stuff.

You know, sometimes it's the tedious stuff that just does your head in, whereas solving a harder problem with a real impact, that can feel weirdly more doable because it matters. But I also think that she struggles with being the sheriff and also kind of being the mom, if the phone ringing example and the janitor thing are any indication.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Also, attendance and timeliness, just like basic shit these people should be able to handle on their own. Come on, man, I can't blame her for hating that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So maybe it's not conflict in general that's hard for her, but this specific role that she found herself in, like this type of conflict. And I would be curious to know what earlier experiences that echoed or didn't.

But I also wonder if the problem wasn't being responsible for people, but being responsible for these people, people who have these particular problems and who look to her to solve them in this way, [00:50:00] which she feels was often silly and beneath her.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. Yeah, it might help to drill down a little bit.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But then I'm also wondering, like, could she have handled those conversations differently, maybe in a way that suited her personality better, but was also even stronger leadership? Like for example, when someone comes to her and says, "Marjorie's ringtone is too loud. You have to go talk to her," could she have said something like, "Yeah, that sounds super annoying.

Why don't you go ask her nicely to put it on silent mode or whatever? Like, no need for me to be the messenger."

Jordan Harbinger: Or, "I hear you. That's annoying, but we all share the office. There's always going to be distractions, so maybe, maybe let this one roll off your back or get noise-canceling headphones or something."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Like, same thing with, what was his name? Brett. Brett from accounting. Brett from accounting. Yeah. Like, "Okay, Brett, if the trash thing happens again, next time you see Clarence, maybe remind him that yours needs emptying. You know, I'm your manager, bud. I'm not your mom. You got this, Brett. I believe in you."

Like, it's not that hard.

Jordan Harbinger: Maybe throw your Clif Bar wrappers in Marjorie's trash can since she's never at her freaking desk anyways.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He goes, "Killed two birds-[00:51:00]

birds with one stone, really. That's right. So what you're getting at is did these interactions really need to be so taxing? Were they taxing in part because of the way she responded to them or the way that she internalizes responsibility?

Jordan Harbinger: That's also a good distinction because there's the objective responsibility she has for people, and then there's how this responsibility feels to her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: To her, exactly, and that's always the case, right? This costume she described, for one person it can feel hot and itchy and like, "I can't wait to go home and take it off," and for another person it can just be like, "Okay, this is a second skin that I have to wear for part of the day." To your point, Jordan, it's all based on our personalities and our pasts.

Jordan Harbinger: The whole thing is to be able to say stuff like that, you have to be willing to engage in some conflict, and that's hard for her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, but so was taking on all of their problems in this way. So, like, which hard does she prefer? These are just a couple of ways she could have maybe respectfully handed those problems back to her staff and sent the message, you know, "Please step up.

Be a leader yourself. I'm a manager. I'm not a babysitter." I think if you do that enough times, people do start to learn, and also she would [00:52:00] start to learn how to not get involved in everything and hopefully how to not internalize this stuff in the same way.

Jordan Harbinger: So true, and if her employees don't learn, then maybe a bigger conversation is in order.

Maybe she sets some new policies, or she replaces them with people who are leaders, which is also part of good leadership.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Absolutely. So when you interview with new hiring managers, one way you could frame this is, "I led a team of people for over a year. I delivered good results. I learned a ton. One of the things I learned is that I really enjoy and I take pride in my work, and I want to get back to having a connection, you know, with that work, with the product.

That's where I thrive. That's where I think I can make the biggest impact right now."

Jordan Harbinger: Really nice. Much better than what I would have pitched, which was, "Hey, people are annoying as hell, and I'm done babysitting

Gabriel Mizrahi: them" I mean, spoken like a true GTA character. Yeah, that's right. But, uh, I don't know. Who knows?

If you get a cool interviewer who gets it, maybe she could say a version of that. They might find it refreshing. I don't know. But this more diplomatic version is also completely true, and it basically says the same thing.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:00] Honestly, I don't think you're doomed to a lesser role for the rest of your career once you take this step back.

Because first off, you can always make a change again. It's all about the story you tell. And second, it sounds like you're very talented, and the message you're getting from a lot of people is you should be a manager. So I wouldn't be surprised if the opportunity came up again.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting that she's worried about that, though.

It kind of makes me wonder if there's a part of her that still does want more responsibility, even though she also bristles at it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a conflict that she might resolve by digging into a lot of the stuff we've been talking about.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree. And digging into it is also how you're going to make peace with this internally.

I know that was your last question. I think the ambivalence you feel right now comes from not fully understanding why this job was so difficult and whether to factor these feelings into your decision to leave and how much they should matter.

Jordan Harbinger: You know, I'm realizing more and more how rich her conflict actually is.

There's a lot of good information for her in there. She just needs to really parse it. The conflict might be, "I could be a leader, but not at this place or not right now." Or it [00:54:00] might be, "Hey, I'm realizing I'm not a manager, but it's hard for me to accept that about myself." Or it might even just be, "I just don't want to manage people, but I also want more money, so something's got to give.

How's, how do I work this out?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: There's probably no scenario for our friend where she never feels a conflict or a difficult feeling about her job ever again. I think this is much more about finding a relationship with her work, her colleagues, herself that make these feelings survivable and they don't bury her.

Jordan Harbinger: And where she's honoring her true needs and values, which might also be up for negotiation right now, which is great. And if you decide down the road that you want to earn more money, but that means managing people again, then you're definitely going to have to approach this stuff in a new way. So I think this analysis is worth the effort.

Whatever you end up doing, I know you're going to make an impact. These companies are lucky to have you, and good luck. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for the show if you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes and critique my terrible Larry King impression and/or my amazing Celine Dion covers.

[00:55:00] That's over on Reddit in the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. You know what's more annoying than Marjorie's bootleg Maroon 5 ringtone blasting at full volume? Missing out on the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. That is take a moment, support our sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. And if that doesn't work, you can always email us Jordan@jordanharbinger.com.

We're happy to dig up codes for you. It's that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of Feedback Friday And now for the recommendation of the week I am addicted to lip filler.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My recommendation of the week is a documentary called In Waves and War. It's a documentary about a bunch of former Navy SEALs who have severe PTSD and traumatic brain injuries, like some of the most intense military stuff that I've ever heard [00:56:00] about or seen on TV.

And it follows these guys as they go through psychedelic-assisted therapy using ibogaine and 5-MeO-DMT in these specialized clinics. I think one was in Mexico, and then somehow it's connected to this huge trial or program that's run through Stanford under the close supervision of medical professionals, clinical professionals, which is fascinating.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. Yeah. It's kind of amazing how mainstream... How do you say it? Ibogaine?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think it's ibogaine, yeah. But sometimes they say ibogaine. I don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: That's how I've always said this in my head, so I'm, I'm trying to get it from you as well. But I'll say ibogaine, you say ibogaine. How's that? It's kind of amazing how mainstream ibogaine and, slash ibogaine and 5-MeO-DMT are becoming, man.

Trump just signed that executive order- Wild, isn't it? ... directing, I think directing the FDA and DEA to establish a pathway for eligible patients. I think it's mostly designed for veterans to access ibogaine compounds, which is wild. Brian Johnson, former show guest here, he's on Instagram recording his 5-MeO-DMT sessions.

It's just everywhere.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The psychedelic [00:57:00] aspect of this documentary is undeniably fascinating, and this doc does a pretty good job of trying to capture these guys' trips as they describe them after the fact, which is really, really hard to do. I mean, it's just so personal and profound and strange and hard to put into words.

But what really moved me about this documentary, and I'm just realizing how fitting this is for today's episode, especially the question we're going to take next, what really moved me was watching these incredibly intense and macho guys who are not touchy-feely, who are not hippy-dippy, who are not really part of a culture where you fly to another country and take a substance and heal your childhood trauma and you talk to God and all of that.

There's one guy in the doc who's literally like, "This is so not me. I cannot believe I'm doing this. I don't want to do this, but I can't keep living like this." And you see these guys open themselves up to an experience that is just so foreign and so terrifying. And some of the sessions, I have to say, were hard to watch.

I actually cried several times, even before they got to the psychedelic stuff. They're-- Some of the [00:58:00] stuff they talk about is just really, it's just very painful. And you watch them go through these ceremonies and integration sessions with therapists, and they get so much better, and they start talking to their families again.

And this one guy who has, like, splitting headaches for 10 or 15 years, the headaches completely disappear. They're no longer suicidal. I mean, you literally see the light in their eyes turn on. It's remarkable.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. That is incredible. I mean, this stuff is powerful, especially when you're doing it responsibly under medical supervision.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It was crazy, dude. Even the Stanford researchers in the documentary were like, "How is this possible? Like, this is miraculous." And they were like, "We've never seen anything like this." I just found the whole thing really inspiring that even these Navy SEALs who are in the darkest place I can imagine being, who have a lot of ego and a lot of pride on the line can go, "Okay, I'm scared, but I'm willing to try something new," and then they discover a whole new life and it's just something we talk about on the show all the time.

So that's my rec, In Waves and War. It's [00:59:00] currently streaming on Netflix. We'll link to it in the show notes.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, this is right up my alley. I'm definitely going to grab this for my flight to China.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it's a great watch for the plane. Perfect.

Jordan Harbinger: All right. Next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 55-year-old dude and I retired from the military after 26 years of service.

I have a master's degree and for the last 10 years I've been a successful middle manager in the IT field. I've been married to my one and only wife, we were high school sweethearts, for 34 years. We've always had a very strong marriage. We have two kids who are doing very well in their educations and careers and have no college debt.

I share all of this to illustrate that I feel I have lived the American dream and the four of us are a pretty successful family unit in my opinion. I'm very appreciative of what I have.

Jordan Harbinger: Wonderful. Both that you guys are doing well and that you're grateful for it. Well done.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But my mom and I have a difficult past.

She was a teen mom in the early '70s and was a partier and alcoholic. [01:00:00] I'm an only child. Her first husband, my biological father, beat her and my enduring memory of him is him blocking my mom and me in our tiny bathroom and beating her when I was about three.

Jordan Harbinger: Geez, that is terrible. I'm so sorry, friend.

Gabriel Mizrahi: When I was 13, the alcoholism reached its height and I was taken away from her by the state and entered the foster care system. Man, that's so tough.

Jordan Harbinger: That is so sad, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Her parents, my grandparents, were eventually awarded custody. They raised me until I graduated high school in 1989 and I took off for the military.

After I left my moms, we would keep in touch with a couple letters and phone calls a year. The frequency picked up a bit once texting became a thing. Our relationship was not lovey-dovey but a bit more reserved. She remarried two more times. Husband number three was finally the love of her life. He and I got along well, but I was out of the house when they married and we didn't have a father-son [01:01:00] relationship.

My wife has always been pretty reserved about my mom. I would call it more tolerance than anything. My wife's judgment of people is pretty keen and usually spot on, whereas I'm more hopeful with people.

Jordan Harbinger: I can relate. Jen's totally the same way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: As the years went by, the situation with my mom became a water under the bridge thing, and we communicated more.

Having kids sped things up, and she loved having grandkids. We never talked about the spousal abuse, alcoholism, foster care, custody, not a word to this day. Her side of the family's coping strategy has always been just pretend it never happened and things will go back to normal. I had seven aunts and uncles, and so many times I heard, "Just pretend it never happened," regarding family disputes.

Jordan Harbinger: Ah, yes, sweep it under the rug, the official coping mechanism of families everywhere.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Given all this and where I ended up, I feel like I beat the odds We grew up in state A. We've lived in neighboring state B for [01:02:00] 27 years. When our kids turned seven and eight, my mom and her husband moved into the same small town in state B to be closer to the grandkids.

She would come over, get the kids off to school, pick them up, go to all the events. In this time, our relationship became better, a lot better. Even normal, I would say.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, that is a wild arc. It's touching, but it's crazy that they never really dealt with any of the bad stuff that happened.

Gabriel Mizrahi: In 2019, after 30-plus years of marriage, her husband died after a short battle with cancer.

Of course, it devastated her. My wife and I provided her a lot of emotional support and helped her navigate the funeral, post-death finances, and life in general. Our relationship grew stronger. She and I would go to concerts once a month, and my wife, mom, and I would go out to eat every Friday. Very pleasant.

But she also started drinking more again, often to the point of getting drunk.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, come on, Mom.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She started drunk dialing our oldest kid, then [01:03:00] in college, crying and telling her she was so lonely. This continued, getting more intense each time, until on one call she said she was going to kill herself. My daughter texted me this while they were still on the phone, and I immediately went to my mom's house.

She answered the door with a gun in her hand.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God, that's intense.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I sat with her for a while, removed the guns from the house, and put her to bed. The next day, I told my mom that she needed help and got her into therapy.

Jordan Harbinger: Well done, man. Way to step up and handle that immediately. Holy smokes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She went once.

She had many excuses. What can a 30-year-old therapist tell me about life? All they wanted to do was put me on drugs. These people all have titles of family and marriage counselors. How can they help a 70-year-old who isn't married? She says it was just an episode and everything's okay now, so she never went back.

Jordan Harbinger: Ugh, that's so frustrating, but yeah, we've heard this story before.

Gabriel Mizrahi: To be fair, you can't argue with that logic. Everybody knows that all therapists out there are [01:04:00] 30 years old and only give life advice.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Oh, their title is marriage and family therapist. Oh, yeah? Well, my husband died. What now, trump card therapist?

They only want to put me on drugs. Well, you didn't have too many qualms with drugs in the '70s, did you, Barb?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Savage, dude. Uh, to say nothing of the fact that therapists don't prescribe medication, so this isn't even a problem.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a good point. So man, his mom really doesn't want to talk about stuff at all.

Well, I guess that fits.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Fast-forward to November 2024. Another manager quit at work, and my boss decided she would give me his workload instead of hiring a replacement. My wife and I discussed our finances, which were very strong after planning and saving well, so I decided to quit I took on a part-time job doing something I enjoy to kill the time and give us spending money.

Man, this guy is so responsible, so reasonably, so on top

Jordan Harbinger: of it. I know. It's, it makes me feel bad about myself. Like, I'm like, who is this functional human being writing into Feedback Friday? Of course, it's about somebody else.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm just appreciating how, yeah, how on top of his [01:05:00] life he is. I know. I understand why he's proud and, and grateful for what he's built.

So he goes on, "Shortly after, my wife's brother-in-law got cancer. We started throwing around the idea of moving back to State A to be closer to her three sisters, who she's really close with, and offer support during the cancer treatments. I told my mom all of this and she responded, 'Well, that would certainly be different, huh?'

Like it was no big deal. I thought my mom would move back to State A as well." But when we actually bought a house in State A near my wife's family, my mom completely lost it. She called me up drunk and told me she was going to kill herself, that my wife is manipulating me. She asked me, "What the hell does your wife know about cancer and how could she possibly help?

She's no doctor." Told me I should, quote-unquote, "grow a pair and stand up to my wife." Called me a pussy, said she can't believe I would choose my wife over her, why would I abandon her, and several other insults. She ended by saying to never call, text, or come over [01:06:00] again.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God. Well, that's awful to hear from your own mother.

I am sorry about that, but I think we all know what's going on here. Your mom clearly has a core wound around abandonment and when she saw that you weren't prioritizing her, she felt ditched. And in her pain, which is part of what honestly sounds like a personality disorder, she lashed out at you, hurt you, punished you, and then tried to manipulate you as well.

The very thing she accused your wife of doing, I might add.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Tried to convince you to stay close while also pushing you away, which is very confusing.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, I feel bad for your mom. She's obviously in a lot of pain, but this is also very hurtful and frankly, dude, it's nuts. She's nuts. I'm sorry she said all that to you, though.

Gabriel Mizrahi: A week later she texted, apologized, and asked when we were moving. I told her the date. We talked once more and among other things I told her that, yes, I would choose my wife over my mom, as any grown man should.

Jordan Harbinger: Good for you. Dr. Ken Adams would be proud. This guy has r- got his head screwed on straighter than most people I know, for real.

Gabriel Mizrahi: On moving day [01:07:00] I went to her house to say goodbye, but she wasn't there.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Well, so I assume she blew them off. Geez, this lady. So she wasn't just at Trader Joe's, right? This is deliberate act of-

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is actually a fascinating part of his letter, because it's kind of unclear. Did they have a plan? He went over there, she just didn't want to see him so she left.

Did he go over there without telling her, she just happened to be... But then he didn't try to follow up. Like they didn't... It's unclear. Like I wonder if she didn't want to say goodbye and he also maybe not, didn't want to push the issue 'becauseit was also hard for him. I don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm going to guess they had a plan and she just decided not to be there.

So he goes on, "Now I believe that what people say when they're drunk is their real uninhibited thoughts. To say the least, her words hurt. I've always considered myself pretty resilient and the military certainly encouraged a suck it up buttercup way of dealing with adversity. Life's tough and you move on, you know?"

I have a pretty low tolerance for BS in our lives. If this were anyone else, I [01:08:00] would just say, "Cool, nice knowing you. We're done here," cut them out of my life and move on. But this is my mom, and I'm having more trouble dealing with this than I thought.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man, understandably so.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's now been eight months since we moved.

My mom has texted twice, once on my birthday. I responded with a simple thanks. The other time I could tell she was drunk and she asked me for money because, quote, 'It was the least I could do,' unquote. She has no want for money. I'm still on all of her bank accounts so I can see everything, and she's financially healthy.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, so now she's just manipulating you for cash too to see if you'll do it and comply? Cool. Okay. Well, my compassion for this woman is swiftly waning.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I sent her the $20,000 she asked for, essentially calling her bluff.

Jordan Harbinger: No, no.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I figured she would feel guilty when she sobered up and void the check, but she cashed it.

Oh, man. She sends me a check for her portion of the cellphone bill every month with a love you and miss you note. [01:09:00] I know in her mind it's just a pretend it never happened deal, but I just can't do that on this one. I haven't initiated any conversation with her in any form, and frankly, I don't want to. My wife is done with her, and I don't blame her one bit.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man. You know what? Can you send me $20,000 and ignore me? I'm down. Um, gosh darn it. I get it. It's good for both of you keeping your distance. Your mom is not an easy person to be close with, sadly, and your wife, I don't blame her for being like, "Look, bro, I've humored this for long enough. I'm over it."

Gabriel Mizrahi: But I'm so conflicted. I feel like a horrible person, but intellectually I don't think I should. I feel fully justified for living my life for my wife and me, especially given my early childhood.

Jordan Harbinger: Hard yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: In establishing medical care with the VA in my new area, I answered their standard are you experiencing depression questions with a yes.

I'm scheduled now for therapy in a couple of weeks. I'm happy to be going, but [01:10:00] I never thought I would be a therapy person. It's just so out of character for me, but I'm hopeful it will be helpful.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man, it's out of character for most guys because we're used to bottling shit up, all the more so if you're a veteran.

So good. Good on you for doing something so out of character. I actually really commend you for that. Sometimes we need to be out of character to get our stuff handled, you know?

Gabriel Mizrahi: You can see why that documentary reminded me of this, this guy. This is what it's kind of all about. So he wraps up, "What are your thoughts on the whole situation?

Am I a horrible person?" Signed a conflicted vet who's always been restricted from being upset and was conscripted at the outset into constrictive emotional debt that is now proving hard to forget.

Jordan Harbinger: Uh, yeah, you're a horrible person and your mom's right about everything and you need to move back to your old state and spend every day cleaning her guns with her.

No, man, come on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's pretty much my take as well. So- Let's wrap it up.

Jordan Harbinger: First of all, I'm so, I'm so sorry, man, for the childhood you had, for this mom you had, for all the pain and chaos she created for you and your [01:11:00] wife and your kids. It's truly heartbreaking stuff and really intense. And it goes without saying, your mom is a very troubled person.

She clearly has some major trauma going back a long way. She wouldn't turn to alcohol like this if she didn't, and every loss or challenge that she's experienced, the death of her third husband, you moving away, that must echo some very old experiences for her and it, it obviously causes her a lot of distress and anxiety and anger, and that makes her want to drink, and it disinhibits her, and then you get the brunt of that.

It's just, it's all so tragic, really. To be verbally attacked by your own mother, to have to intervene before she hurts herself, I can't even imagine what that must have been like for you and what that must have brought up. And like I said, half of me is going, "This poor woman, she has so much trauma. She doesn't have the tools to work on it, and she deserves compassion."

And the other half of me is like, "Okay, well, she's refusing to take responsibility for herself and is hurting the people closest to her, and if this were my mom, I'd probably be done with her, too." So I guess both of these things can be true, but this [01:12:00] is your mother. Of course you're conflicted. You deserve so much better than this, and she's acting outrageously, and also it's really hard to pull away from a parent, especially your mom, even if she's kind of a mess.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. Well said. This guy has, like, a Tony Soprano mom, doesn't he?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, he really does. Just constitutionally miserable and impossible to please.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, at least when she's drinking. And this all creates, like, a lot of guilt and resentment and conflict for him. It's just awful.

Jordan Harbinger: Maybe re-watch season one of The Sopranos.

That should help.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. He's also starting therapy for the first time, so actually, that might be the perfect show for him to watch.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Ironically, the only thing an MFT can actually prescribe is to stream a show on HBO Max. So- Tony Soprano's mom, I don't know if they ever come out and say this, but she has some kind of personality disorder or something, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, definitely. Like

Jordan Harbinger: BPD or something.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Something. They, it's a little vague, but something like that. David Chase, the creator of the show, based that character on his own mother, which I can't even imagine what [01:13:00] that was like growing up. Yikes.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, didn't know that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: What's a little odd to me here is he was r- he was raised by her parents, right?

So-

Gabriel Mizrahi: After the age of 13.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, so maybe you have some clue. I don't know. But yeah, his mom's got some wounds, and I'm sure that's why she didn't want to go to therapy, because it's just too painful to even think about confronting this stuff. To

Gabriel Mizrahi: be clear, I'm not suggesting that she was abused in the same way.

Jordan Harbinger: I am glad you said that, because I was like, "Maybe I need to clarify that I don't know if the grandpa and grandma that raised you are the people that messed up

Gabriel Mizrahi: your mom." No, not at all. It could be as simple as growing up in a family where nobody talks about anything, dot, dot, dot. She turns out this way. I just, I'm just saying that when people are in this degree of pain, there could be something really serious that they've never shared with anybody.

Yeah. You know?

Jordan Harbinger: So all this to say, your conflict makes a lot of sense. The conflict is the product of a few things: being raised by a mother like this, dealing with her addiction from a young age, wanting to protect her, starting with protecting her from your father, being a military guy who probably takes on responsibility very seriously and easily and [01:14:00] who takes pride in keeping people safe and fulfilling his duty.

Also, just being a decent human being, man, because like I said, this is your mom, and it's sad, and you know what she's like when she's not drinking, when she's not spiraling, and I'm sure it would be devastating if she ever did hurt herself or took her own life, and I'm sure that you don't want to feel that grief and that guilt.

So I totally get why you're torn here, man. But we also have to acknowledge that your mom is a very difficult person, to put it mildly. She can be kind and helpful and involved, all those wonderful things, but she can also be aggressive, hurtful, chaotic, confusing, avoidant, everything you're grappling with, and that's the contradiction of your mom.

That's the trauma and that's the addiction, and it's really heartbreaking. But so it's equally important, I think, to remember a few things. They might sound obvious. We talk about them a lot, but I think they bear repeating because they're so easy to forget. The first, you are not ultimately responsible for your mom.

You are not responsible for keeping her sober, which is impossible to do anyway, especially when you don't live in the same house, and thank God you don't. [01:15:00] You're not responsible for making her go to therapy, although I love that you tried. You're not responsible for making things okay for her by capitulating to her demands, and I commend you for not doing that and for telling her point-blank that you are going to prioritize yourself and your wife and your family.

I think that's awesome. That is not easy to do, and that tells me that you're already further along in this process than I think a lot of folks with parents like this tend to be. And again, Dr. Ken Adams, episode 942, his whole work is helping men learn to rewrite these patterns. But it's easy to make those calls and draw those boundaries and still feel internally responsible, internally conflicted, and letting go of that is a process.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I do wonder if that might have been part of the decision to send her the $20,000 as well.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I think so.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He framed that as calling her bluff. Another way to put it is that it was a test, right? It was a test of just how self-interested she might be, whether she really views him as an ATM or can put a dollar value on their relationship, [01:16:00] or whether she would feel a shred of guilt about taking his money when she doesn't actually need it.

But I also wonder if it was just really hard to tell his mom, "I'm sorry, but no. You're financially stable. All your needs are met. I'm not going to send you $20,000 for no reason."

Jordan Harbinger: Totally. Yeah, the money is just one of many ways he's learned to cater to her or avoid. It's also avoidance, right? Like, "Oh, she might try to fight me on this even though she doesn't need it, and it's easier for me to just capitulate on this one."

So I don't know. All that to say, I just want to remind you, it is not your job to save her, especially since she's making it basically impossible to help her in the first place. A corollary or corollary, depending on who you ask, to this- Thank you ... is accepting that you are not ultimately responsible for your mom means inviting the possibility of even more pain, in a way.

Because if she does end up, say, I don't know, drinking herself to death or taking her own life, which I genuinely hope never happens, but sadly it's a possibility- Or just being chaotic and miserable for the rest of her life, you would have to bear that grief. [01:17:00] Sometimes wanting to step in and save someone like this, especially a parent, it's partly a way to stave off that grief, which can be tremendous.

Yes, it's about them, of course, but it's also about us. So I think it's important to really get clear on what kind of relationship you want to have with your mother's pain.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And it's an interesting theme also on today's episode, what kind of relationship you want to have with the responsibility that you feel to spare your mom from that pain.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly, which again, he's already redefining beautifully. But when you feel torn, it might be helpful to come back to the question of, given the limit of my ability to improve things here, why do I feel so torn about pulling back or standing up to myself?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's a nice question. I also want to acknowledge that getting to the point where he can really answer that question might require a lot of talking and processing on his part.

He has a lot of stuff to unpack himself, right? His childhood, being separated from his mother, being in the military, all of these intense experiences that he's mentioned.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, he's going to have to David Chase this [01:18:00] thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think so. This isn't just an easy cognitive question. You know, like, why do you feel so responsible for her?

You can put that thought down any time. I doubt that it's a switch he can just toggle.

Jordan Harbinger: No, it's dynamic. I agree.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I just say that so he understands that this might take some time, and that's okay. It's a journey. It should be a journey.

Jordan Harbinger: And that's actually kind of the third thing I would keep in mind, which is that the so-called answer to the problem of your mom is not simple.

I think it's probably going to be an ongoing conversation with yourself, with your wife, with your kids, definitely with your therapist about how to work through the many feelings that she brings up. Look, you could solve this, quote-unquote solve, by drawing a hard boundary and calling it a day and cut her off.

You know, only communicate by text, not sending her any more money, which by the way, I do think that's absolutely the right call. If she's not actually in trouble, there's no reason you should be giving your abusive mother tens of thousands of dollars. If you did cut her off, you might insulate yourself from some of the pain, and so there's definitely a role for boundaries here, and that's something you can talk to your therapist about.

But even boundaries are an ongoing [01:19:00] process. They can change over time. You saw that when your mom started becoming more involved in your life when she was healthy, and they won't spare you from the feelings your mom has left you with even if you guys aren't interacting much.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, Jordan, I think his letter is really about coming to terms with a lot of stuff that he has avoided or glossed over for a very long time, both because it was the family way and also because it was the military way, and that kind of suited him.

Jordan Harbinger: What did he say about that? "I've always considered myself pretty resilient. The military certainly encouraged a suck-it-up, buttercup way of dealing with adversity."

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Life's tough. You just move on, all of that.

Jordan Harbinger: That's how trauma works. You just move on. No big deal.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I found it interesting that twice in his letter he said some version of, "My life is pretty amazing.

I'm very appreciative of what I have," you know?

Jordan Harbinger: Right. I've lived the American dream. We're a pretty successful family unit. I'm super grateful for what I have.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. He also said, "Given my childhood and where I ended up, I feel like I beat the odds." So there's... He keeps coming back to this.

Jordan Harbinger: He did beat the odds.

A lot of people with these traumas and challenges would've really struggled in [01:20:00] life, I think.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally, and I love that he's grateful for how his life has turned out and his career and his family who seem to be doing really well. It's a beautiful quality, especially in somebody who unfortunately has been hurt quite a bit in his life.

But I also wonder if that stance is kind of part of the whole suck-it-up, buttercup thing.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, I see what you mean. Like, what do I have to complain about? It could've been so much worse.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. Exactly. I'm not questioning his gratitude. I believe that it's real, and I'm so glad he feels that gratitude. But sometimes that position can also serve to tamp down some other difficult thoughts and feelings, right?

The reality is that he can be grateful for how well his life turned out and angry at his mother. He can be proud that he beat the odds, and he can also be pretty shaken up by the fact that he had to overcome those odds in the first place.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally. It's not all one or the other.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think part of his task now is making room for multiple feelings at once, multiple narratives.

And if he's grateful for this wonderful life that he's built, as he should be, to feel that gratitude without using it to also shut down [01:21:00] other equally valid experiences.

Jordan Harbinger: It's a good point, and it kind of fits with the whole military way, doesn't it? You know, what do you have to complain about, soldier? Look how far you've come.

Look how much you have.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think this is one of the big gifts of therapy, is just widening the frame and making room for more. More feelings, more contradictions, the full catastrophe, as they say. So yeah, this is a story about his very painful mother, but it's really a story about him choosing to take a very different approach to his feelings, his relationships, his past his whole life after decades of not giving these things airtime seemingly whatsoever.

And I'm just really proud of you for that, man, because it's no small thing. So you deserve that, and I wish you a lot of insight and growth and therapy. And also, you already have a running start because you are well on your way to rewriting a lot of this.

Jordan Harbinger: Could not agree more, Gabe. It's a big deal. It takes real courage.

Also, we've heard from a lot of veterans who have gotten therapy through the VA. We also know a couple clinicians who've worked there. It's a remarkable organization in many ways. It's [01:22:00] probably woefully underfunded, but it's staffed by good folks. Thank God the place exists because veterans deserve that support.

You also probably know that the VA has some very real limitations, and sadly, it doesn't always give veterans what they truly need. So if you get there and they're like, "Yeah, we can only give you 12 sessions with a therapist," or you don't love the therapist you're matched with or whatever it is, please don't give up.

Keep advocating for what you need. You often have to work the system a little bit to get the best care. And if you can't get it at the VA, man, please look for it outside. Private practice, BetterHelp, group therapy. There are lots of options out there, and I would just-- I would love for you to continue your therapy journey no matter what.

So you're not a horrible person, my friend, quite the opposite. But when you have a parent like this, standing up to them and protecting yourself, that can feel like a betrayal. It's not. I think your mother has actually let you down, but maybe it's more accurate to say that she's let herself down by not taking care of herself at all, and you've had to pay the price for that in a variety of ways, and that is deeply sad.

But the opportunity here is to make sense of all that and heal, [01:23:00] and that's the gift inside the pain, and you deserve that gift. I know it's going to lead you to a much better place. Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out our episodes with Valerie Friedland on accents and our Skeptical Sunday on medical tourism if you haven't heard those yet.

The best things that have happened in my life and business come through my network. That's the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build that kind of thing for yourself for free in our Six Minute Networking course. It is actually free, no shenanigans, on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com.

Dig the well before you're thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. Show notes and transcripts on the website. Advertisers, deals, ways to support the show all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram @GabrielMizrahi.

This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, [01:24:00] so consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show.

Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please do share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

You're about to hear a preview from Joe Loya, a man who robbed 30 banks across California, but says the real crime scene was his childhood, where his Pentecostal preacher father beat him over 100 times before he turned 15.

JHS Trailer: For 14 months, I robbed 30 banks, sometimes several in one day. I lost all sense that my life was going to be long at all. I just wanted to grab the loot and get the hell out of Dodge as fast as possible and go spend it and have fun. That was my ethos. And so I did. Because all the crimes I did and all the violence I did, and starting with my dad, when my mother died, we had received a lot of love from her and everything like that.

It's just too much for him. And when he gets angry now, he [01:25:00] gets brutal. Like, he may have socked me, he may have choked me, he may have done all those things, beat me with a bat. He wants us dead. He's using the dead language. He could kill us or I could kill myself, but this is, like, it's just a tough time for me to try and process the grief myself and be, I'm being brutalized.

I don't believe I have a future. So there's nothing inside of me like, "Oh, I got to protect my future. I better get a job. I start, better start saving money for the future." None of that. Because the trauma is so intense, you're only looking at surviving the next day in front of you. You know, in fact, I'm not made for society.

They have all these moralities, but they're too timid for me. I've seen past the curtain. Like, I become, in my heart, like this little sociopath looking at, like, "You guys are falling for the okey-doke, and I'm not the guy who falls for the okey-doke. I'm the guy who stabs the okey-doke and says, 'Get the hell out of my way.' I'm not buying it," right? Once upon a time, Joe Loya couldn't handle his emotional shit, and so now I'm a criminal. I'm a [01:26:00] bad guy.

Jordan Harbinger: Check out episodes 1264 and 1265 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.