1037: Allure of Abuser Only Serves to Confuse Her | Feedback Friday

1037: Allure of Abuser Only Serves to Confuse Her | Feedback Friday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback, Friday producer, the SIM card, extending the range of this jailbroken smartphone of life advice Gabriel Mizrahi. On the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turned their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, former jihadi, economic hitman, gold smugglers, or astronauts. This week we had James Sexton, a divorce lawyer with super interesting insights into love, marriage, divorce.

This is a two-parter, a lot to talk about. I know it's like, oh, a divorce lawyer really came with some quite interesting insights. It is very quotable. I think you all will love this one. On Fridays, though, we share stories, offer advice, and generally take a scalpel to the corpus of your most pressing life conundrum to expose the hidden pathologies and opportunities therein.

Well, you know, getting occasionally ridiculous to keep things light before we dive in. As a relatively new parent, especially the parent of a girl, one of my children is a, is a girl. I find myself thinking about social media a lot these days, and I know sometimes parents are on the fence about whether to let their teenage or adolescent daughters use social media.

They know that there are drawbacks, but I don't think they fully realize what they're getting into some of the time because they're decent people. They're not exposed to the horrors of the internet. For better or for worse, I often am. And what I've seen on the internet, and I don't even mean the underbelly, the dark web, I just mean stuff on Instagram, Reddit, general social media.

It really makes me uneasy about the experience that all young people, but especially girls and young women have on the internet these days. So I think parents need to make an Instagram account here. Here's a little experiment for you. Make an Instagram account with pictures of, I don't know, like Barbie little girl toys, stuff like that.

Not kids. Don't put real people in there. Leave it up for a month or two. Post a few things here and there. Twice a week, whatever. Make the account, obviously a young girl all in line with Instagram's limitations in terms of service, of course. And then just log in once a week and look at the direct messages that that account gets.

I will almost guarantee you that within enough of a timeframe, and I'm talking like 30 to 60 days, you will see some horrific stuff in there and that will either make you delay your kids getting on social media for a couple years until they're more mature, or it'll at least help you give them the tools they need to stay safe.

I was quite surprised by what I found with this experiment 25 or no more years ago now, I had a similar experiment, and this is how, for those who've been listening to the show for a while, this is how I started catching child predators online, is because I made a, an account as a girl on a OL and I got tons of creepy messages from guys and I had started turning 'em into the FBI, and that's how that whole thing started in the first place.

So do this in a little way. If you have a teenage daughter or a younger daughter and you're thinking, oh, we should let her on social media. Everybody else is on social media. Take a look at that stuff. And it doesn't have to be Instagram. Oh, my kid doesn't use that. They use Snapchat. Fine. Make a Snapchat account.

It doesn't matter. You will see stuff you don't like and it will scare you. I'm not a fear monger, but I really do think it's important to be aware of this stuff. 'cause you know it's your child's safety. Either way, the conversation that you have with your children will be a lot more effective as a result.

Alright, Gabe, what's the first thing outta the mailbag?

[00:03:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I met my husband when I was very young, and we have a seven year age difference. Everything seemed great and fun at the start, but little things started to emerge when we moved in together. It started with tiny insults about my body or quirks.

Then it all came to a head when he started drinking for the first time and all. Hell broke loose. What followed was a decade of interrupted sleep, screamed insults, hitting manipulation, forced sexual acts, and even getting abuse from his family.

[00:03:58] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, this is awful. I'm so sorry you went through this. So this is a nightmare.

[00:04:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: During this time, I attempted suicide three times. Each time failed for varying reasons. I wasn't depressed. I was just so overwhelmed and scared and had no idea what to do.

[00:04:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I get it. Again, I'm so very sorry that suicide seemed like the only answer. Can you imagine? That must have been a really dark time for you.

[00:04:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: But my husband was amazing when he was sober. He was a little bad at understanding my wants and needs, but he tried really hard.

[00:04:31] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I mean, I, I hear you. But, so he might have been a decent guy in the grip of an addiction. That can really do a number on a person, but he's obviously a very troubled, dangerous person, at least right now.

Also, he was a little bad at understanding my wants and needs to this, this guy abused you severely. Bit of an understatement, isn't it? Yeah. It's kinda like saying, oh, that, you know, that Hitler guy, he was great when he wasn't taking over the world. A little ambitious sometimes, but you, you know,

[00:04:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: could be a little insensitive to certain groups here and there, but you know, he did his best.

[00:05:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I mean, sorry for comparing your husband to Hitler in the first five minutes of the show. Slight exaggeration here. That really went zero to World War II pretty quickly. It really did. We're just having a laugh. I'm sorry,

[00:05:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: may we should have chosen Pole pod or something. Someone, someone less, yes.

Someone less controversial. Exactly. Pole pot. Way less charged. In all seriousness, though, that is a very interesting comment. In the context of this story, she seems to have a lot of compassion and grace. For a guy who really hurt her

[00:05:28] Jordan Harbinger: a little too much, I feel, but I'm probably getting ahead of myself.

Let's see where this goes.

[00:05:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Then. One night after a long stretch of sobriety, he came home drunk. He never indicated that he was having problems or needed support, so the sudden shouting and berating took me by surprise. After hours of this, I was cornered. I received a head injury, bruising, loss of feeling in some areas and pains and experienced strangulation.

[00:05:52] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. It's official. This dude is kind of a monster. Wow.

[00:05:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: I experienced strangulation, meaning he strangled her. Right?

[00:06:00] Jordan Harbinger: Well, clearly, but yeah, I, I tripped on that. 'cause it's, it's such a weird way to put it

[00:06:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: that she put it in the passive voice. Uh, yeah. Right. She did it a moment ago too. She said I was cornered.

Meaning he cornered you.

[00:06:11] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I clocked that. I'm just kind of like, I, I don't who write. Why, why would you write like that?

[00:06:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. Maybe we're nitpicking. Uh.

[00:06:17] Jordan Harbinger: I'm starting to feel that's part of her story. There's something here that you're picking up too. I can tell

[00:06:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: there's some distancing or something that's taking place in this letter.

[00:06:25] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know, maybe I'm overthinking it. I'm no English major, but it's like her sentence structure itself is slightly dissociated or Mm-Hmm. Removed from the facts of what happened.

[00:06:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. So back to the compassion that she seems to have for her husband, I'm starting to feel like she's not really sure how accountable to hold him for what he did to her.

[00:06:40] Jordan Harbinger: I agree. Well keep reading the letter, Gabe, or you know, make sure the letter is read by you.

[00:06:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Ha. Yeah. Everyone listening right now is like, I experienced the reading of a feedback Friday letter. So she goes on after the hospital, suspected domestic violence. They sent the police and the police arrested him.

We were forcibly separated. Our 3-year-old instantly started acting as though things were better and hasn't asked about Dad since. Well, there's another interesting detail. Definitely. Isn't it interesting how children pick up on these things before they can really articulate them? They know everything.

Uhhuh, despite what happened. I'm having so much trouble. I still somehow love my husband and know that beneath the Substances is a person who wants to create beauty in this world. I find myself craving the love bombing he would do after he'd get abusive.

[00:07:24] Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy. Okay, well, we're gonna talk about that.

[00:07:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: I've been a long time listener of Feedback Friday, which makes this story even more upsetting. How can I be my own person after being controlled and abused for a decade? How can I learn not to crave the very thing that caused me so much pain? How can I stop fearing that everyone I know will dislike me?

And how can I stop wanting to help my abuser signed in distress that I can't suppress the urge to say yes to the man who aggressed.

[00:07:51] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Wow. Well, like I said, I am so very sorry that your husband hurt you in so many ways. Not that you were hurt, not that some abuse was sometimes done by him. I am sorry that he abused you,

[00:08:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: period.

Oh, nice dodge there. I saw the F forming on your lips and you were like, nah, I'm gonna try the new catchphrase come work. Yeah.

[00:08:10] Jordan Harbinger: No one star reviews for us this weekend. I'm doing my part. Look, I'm very sorry that your husband abused you and I appreciate your being so honest with us. This must be a difficult thing to acknowledge that you still love this person who hurt you so profoundly.

So look, we don't know every detail about your marriage. We don't know the full story of your husband's two sides. We don't know your personal history before you got married. But what's very clear to me is, A, you're almost certainly traumatized by the abuse you endured as any human being would be. And B, there's something in your conditioning, your early experiences maybe that has made you unusually sympathetic and forgiving of a partner like this that has on some level, even drawn you to this situation.

Certainly that's kept you stuck in it and that's made you extremely vulnerable and you and your three-year-old for that matter. Now that doesn't mean your husband doesn't have a loving side. It's very confusing to be in a relationship with somebody who's battling an addiction, who can sometimes be loving and supportive and wanna create beauty in the world and then turn around and, and literally strangle you.

I mean, talk about whiplash

[00:09:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: and how painful to not know which version of your husband you're actually married to, to not know which version of him to invest in. Uh, I would be going outta my mind

[00:09:18] Jordan Harbinger: totally, and I'm sure that's part of what she's working through and look. I have no doubt that your husband needs a lot of love and support and compassion to heal whatever wounds are drawing him to alcohol and making him act this way, and as his wife, you are probably the most promising source of that help.

But he needs to lead there and he needs to know what to do with that support. Whether it's using it as motivation to work a recovery program, to go to therapy to find peers and mentors who can help him grow, which I'm gonna assume he has not done.

[00:09:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, completely agree. I mean, in the meantime, what you need to see is that by discounting and forgiving his abuse for so long, and choosing to focus mostly on his positive qualities, it seems to me that you've also participated in this very tragic dynamic, and again, why acknowledging all these aspects of your husband and going, okay, I'm married to a man who is both very sweet and loving sometimes, and also flawed and limited and addicted and also out of control and dangerous.

What purpose compartmentalizing these different parts of his personality serves for you. I'm fairly certain that that's a product of the early programming that Jordan mentioned a moment ago, and that my friend is now your job to unpack. Obviously we're gonna say go to therapy. I think you know that there's a decade of trauma and experiences to talk about here as well as an entire life that led you to this moment.

The answers to all of your other questions, how can I be my own person after being controlled and abused for 10 years? How can I stop wanting to help my abuser? And especially this question, how can I learn not to crave the very thing that caused me so much pain? Those are precisely the questions you wanna bring into therapy.

I mean, you're talking about childhood wounds, you're talking about relational trauma, you're talking about patterns, repetition, compulsion, enactment. You're talking about basically, how do I heal and rewrite myself? This is profound work. I. But the thing is, the answers to those questions are so personal, they're so complex and they're unique to you, and also so much about the therapeutic relationship.

You know, being in a process with somebody who can help you move through all of these experiences that have shaped you. I'm not sure that we can really answer those meaningfully. I mean, we can theorize and we'd be happy to. We love speculating. But even if we're right, I'm afraid that those would just be ideas.

And you don't need ideas right now. You need experience.

[00:11:29] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. She needs to be on the couch, talking, processing, crying, getting angry, experiencing a very different kind of relationship, reliving certain things, finding that deep healing. That only comes through a lot of intentional conversation. And as you've heard us say many times by now, there are no shortcuts to this stuff.

I mean, sure, there are certain things that can help you move more quickly, right? There are emotional and spiritual tools out there, books, workshops, medication. The list goes on and on. But in terms of taking your mind and your identity down to the studs and rebuilding yourself, that is a couch job for sure.

That is a

[00:12:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: hardcore couch

[00:12:03] Jordan Harbinger: job. West Elm. West Elm, actually, I'll be honest, I prefer HD Buttercup when crying my eyes out. Which reminds me, this episode is brought to you by hd Buttercup, the only furniture that you'll wanna sit on while you talk about all the ways that people have let you down.

[00:12:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly.

Now with a new selection of tear absorbent fabrics,

[00:12:20] Jordan Harbinger: dude, hd Buttercup, get at us. We are definitely onto something here. Come on. Tear absorbent fabrics. I love it. Did you just come up with that?

[00:12:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, I might or might not have wandered into an hd Buttercup. Yeah,

[00:12:32] Jordan Harbinger: you and asked about, do you have any really, like really absorbent?

What's this guy doing on the, yeah. Well, I just cry a lot.

[00:12:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: I need to break up with somebody in three to six weeks and they're like, oh, it takes three to four months for delivery. I'm like, I'm going to West Elm. Sorry guys.

[00:12:45] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God. Just give me the display model. Wait, I'll just do it in the store. Then the couch can stay here.

[00:12:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: You threw one more interesting question into the mix, which is how can I stop fearing that everyone I know will dislike me?

[00:12:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That really jumped out at me.

[00:12:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's fascinating because it wasn't connected to any other detail in her letter, but it really does fit with so much of what she's been through.

So I'm wondering, was she afraid that her husband would turn on her if she stood up to him? Was she maybe anxious that her child would somehow resent her if she separated from dad? Is this fear of hers, an obstacle to making good friends who could support her to letting a therapist into her life?

[00:13:20] Jordan Harbinger: I'd venture to guess yes to all of the above.

Not to be too paint by numbers, right? But I think what she's revealed in that question is a real struggle with self-worth, and probably an anxious attachment style. And I know I sound like I've got a degree in therapy or whatever for reading books on this, but th this is again, just my us armchair, this one.

If you're afraid that everyone you know will dislike you, which by the way, very universal human fear, I think. But if that fear drives everything you think and everything you do and everything you say, then that almost certainly speaks to whether you feel you deserve to be cared for and loved. Whether you deserve to prioritize your safety by leaving your husband, whether you deserve other people's support, whether you're even allowed to have a better life.

And again, I don't mean to oversimplify this obviously, but I see kind of a straight line between that fear and the decision to stay in this crappy, abusive relationship.

[00:14:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: So my feeling there is the same excellent question, and also only something you can change by getting to the roots of that anxiety.

Where in the world does that fear come from? You gotta figure that out.

[00:14:20] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Well, spoiler alert, mommy and daddy, probably. Yeah,

[00:14:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: always. Right? I think so. And then in time, beginning to rewrite that pattern in action, which means in your relationships with your child, with your friends, with your colleagues, with everybody.

It also means daring to prioritize yourself, daring to be, quote unquote, a problem daring to take up space and risking the chance that you might, might alienate some people or be abandoned by them if you are more yourself, basically. But the only way to unlearn that fear is to show up in your relationships in a different way.

Then to find out if people actually do turn on you in the way that you fear and when they don't. And this also depends on you choosing the right people and being thoughtful about how you're sharing yourself with them when they don't. I think you'll begin to see that there's a very different way of being in relationship than the one that you have done your whole life.

[00:15:09] Jordan Harbinger: But Gabe, we gotta acknowledge that can just be terrifying.

[00:15:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah. I mean, it takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of faith in yourself and other people to show up differently. But man, when it starts to happen, it is life changing and there's no rush. You know, you have a lot of talking and healing to do, but that's the answer to your question.

It's going to happen in the reality of your life. It's not going to happen. Just through some words that a couple of podcasters, as much as they love, you can share in one episode.

[00:15:34] Jordan Harbinger: Well, amen. Gabe, the reward for that courage to take up space and dare being inconvenient, that reward, it's yourself basically.

Mm-Hmm. And relationships that are healthy and nourishing as opposed to abusive in one sided and predicated on all these unspoken agreements. Mm-hmm. So I hope you get to do that, friend. I really do. And if you need help finding a therapist, hit us up. We can help connect you with some good resources.

We're happy to do that. I'm very sorry that you experienced all this pain and dysfunction, but the upside to that dysfunction, the arrest, the separation, that stuff has forced you to wake up. And I can hear that you're already waking up. I'm very proud of you for that. Now you just have to listen and follow that information to the experiences that you need, and we're sending you a big hug and of course we're rooting for you as well.

You know, what else is experiencing strangulation, your wallet when you fail to take advantage of the deals on the fine products and services that support this show?

[00:16:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, I think you mean when the deals on these fine products and services are failed to be taken advantage of?

[00:16:29] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. That's a good point. This show will have been returned in just a minute.

We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help. Alright, we gotta get real about self-care. Non-negotiables. Maybe yours is Social Time with your friends, a monthly massage monthly. For me, therapy day is non-negotiable. Life gets wild between the kids' gymnastics and swim classes. I got podcast interviews trying to remember what freaking day it is.

It's easy to let our own needs fall to the bottom of the list, but honestly, when life gets craziest, that's when sticking to your self-care routines like therapy is actually even more important than ever. Because look, therapy, I know it sounds like it's for earth shattering moments only, but it's not.

It's for learning how to cope better, set boundaries ultimately to to be the best version of yourself. Whether you're dealing with stress, working on building better habits, or just need someone to talk things through with therapy can seriously make all the difference. So if you've been thinking about starting therapy, but you're not sure where to begin, I highly recommend checking out Better Help.

It's all online. It's designed to be super convenient and flexible so it fits right into your busy schedule. Fill out a quick questionnaire, get matched with a licensed therapist, and if you need to switch therapists, you can do it time. No extra cost.

[00:17:32] Jen Harbinger: Never. Skip Therapy Day with better help. Visit better help.com/jordan today to get 10% off your first month.

That's better. HEL p.com/jordan.

[00:17:41] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Via Tour. If you're gearing up for your next big adventure, do not snooze on checking out via tour. It's great for finding those unforgettable travel experiences. I just got back from Tbilisi, Georgia and I had an interesting off the Beaten Path tour.

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[00:18:42] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all searchable and clickable in one place. Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to feedback Friday.

[00:18:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: All right, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, over two years ago, my dad was diagnosed with cancer. It's slow growing, or at least I think it is since he's still around and not much has changed. My family is very protective of privacy, and I'm the younger of two siblings, so I'm the last person they will ever discuss things with.

[00:19:17] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, but you're his daughter, so what does it matter? If you're the younger sibling, your family can't tell you how your dad's cancer is progressing.

[00:19:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting detail. So she has a certain position in this family and they seem to keep her quarantined from certain information. Yeah, that's gotta be significant.

Let's see where this goes. Very odd. My dad has chronic depression and anxiety, so do I. Surprise. Surprise. He's being treated with medication, but that seems to do absolutely nothing. He sleeps up to 18 hours a day. When people ask about my dad, I usually just tell them he went to bed when I was 10 and hasn't been around since.

[00:19:51] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, that is so sad. I'm sorry that your dad struggled so much, but this must be really hard for you too. Wow.

[00:19:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Advances in technology ate up his line of work sometime back. He was let go and he hasn't had any work since. I think he could have had more success if you were willing to try other lines of work, but obviously that didn't happen.

Even before that, he always had something awful to say about everyone and everything and just a negative view of life generally. I once told him about a dream of mine to hike the Appalachian Trail. His response was, what type of coffin would you like when they find your body? Oh my God. Needless to say, I haven't pursued that dream.

Uh, that's so sad.

[00:20:29] Jordan Harbinger: That sucks. I'm trying to hold off on weighing in here, but you're dead, man. Geez. Look, I hope you know that this has everything to do with him and his mood and his worldview, and nothing to do whatsoever with you or whether you deserve to have these experiences. Oh,

[00:20:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: for sure. This guy is projecting his own fear and judgment onto you and doing it in a rather cruel way.

This is really sad. A hundred percent. It's

[00:20:52] Jordan Harbinger: really

[00:20:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: sad. All the difficult experiences and memories I have with my dad from childhood have made it nearly impossible to want to try to forge friendships with people. I try to think positive thoughts to keep my morale up, but it's hard. He's lost over a hundred pounds in the past couple of years, either because of the cancer or because of his mental health.

Nobody knows for sure he doesn't qualify for death with dignity, even though it's legal in the state that he lives in. I'm not sure that he would pursue it, even if he did. It's like he doesn't wanna live but isn't ready to die either. It's like he's trying to force God to take him in his sleep. I'd like to help my dad and I'd like to have at least one positive interaction with him before he dies, but I'm a long haul truck driver, married with two small children at home, and I'm the sole breadwinner.

My husband stays at home taking care of the house and kids while I'm out earning money. I'm generally okay with the setup, but it doesn't leave much time to do anything else. How do I encourage my father to try harder to achieve a better solution? Should I just close that door and move forward? How do I move on from all this?

Signed Bringing my pops back to life after years of strife.

[00:21:58] Jordan Harbinger: Man, what a sad story on so many levels. Yeah, growing up with a father like this, watching him suffer for so long, not knowing how to help or how to enjoy this final chapter with him. This is heartbreaking stuff. This is an intense place to be and I really feel for you, so I'm gonna be very direct with you here.

I don't think there's much you can do to encourage your father to try harder to achieve a better solution. At this point. Your dad suffers from what sounds like pretty severe mental illness on top of this, very slow moving, but debilitating cancer. I have a lot of questions about his medical care, how he's being treated for both illnesses, why they don't know what's causing the weight loss, whether you are getting reliable information about your father's health.

But I know that's not your question, but given your dad's personality, the nature of your relationship with him, the decades of data you have about him, I just don't think it's realistic to expect him to radically change. So as with so many feedback Friday letters, I think your story is really about releasing certain hopes and expectations of your father and going through a mourning process for your dad.

Mm-Hmm. One day, we don't know when one day you are going to have to officially mourn him, but in the meantime, there's definitely some grief for you to experience around the father you had, the father you wish you had, the father you never had,

[00:23:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: and the idea of yourself as a child who could somehow make her parent come back to life.

Jordan, I think she has this fantasy, which is a very understandable fantasy of being able to somehow galvanize her father into waking up literally and figuratively. Yeah. But she's in the process of. Putting that idea to bed. I am so sorry for that pun. I did not intend that. It just came outta my mouth.

Yeah, but it's

[00:23:35] Jordan Harbinger: perfect, isn't it? It is.

[00:23:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Weirdly

[00:23:36] Jordan Harbinger: nailed it. That

[00:23:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: line in her letter where she said he went to bed when I was 10 and hasn't been around since. That was devastating.

[00:23:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, devastating is a great word. That was horrible.

[00:23:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: I have this image of this 10-year-old girl whose father is just totally checked out and inaccessible and scary and probably a little embarrassing.

Yeah, of course. That child would develop the wish to, you know, wake daddy up. Like, be my daddy. Be a human being. Be here with us in the land of living. It sounds to me like she's carried that wish into adulthood and the closer her dad gets to his physical death, the more she's starting to realize, Hmm, this probably isn't gonna happen.

[00:24:10] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. I think that's probably one of the most painful things she's starting to mourn now. Mm-Hmm. And she's going to go through a whole process around that idea That is extremely painful, but it is so important. That said, while I think it's important to let go of fantasies and mourn these ideas, I don't think the answer is to just close the door on your father.

You can still call him, write him, visit him. You can express your love, your good wishes, your hope. You can tell him, Hey, dad, if you ever wanna call me and talk, if you ever need some help in making changes, I'm here for you. You don't need to abandon him or deny your love in order to grieve.

[00:24:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: In fact, I would say it's the opposite.

It's only by destroying these fantasies that we can truly be in a real, authentic relationship with somebody, especially a parent.

[00:24:50] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Now, how you actually move on from all this that's a little more complicated. Grief is complex. It's personal. It's cyclical. You might be in an extended grief process about your dad in some form for the rest of your life, especially a parent as complicated and formative as this.

My general thought here is this is less about moving on and more about, and I hate that I'm about to say this, but making space. Mm-Hmm. Which means yes, talking about your father, with your partner, with a therapist in a journal. All of that, and really allowing yourself to be in touch with everything that your father's slow death is bringing up for you.

Your sadness and your concern, your anger, and your compassion. Your grief and your gratitude. The more you can listen to yourself, the more you'll know how to treat your father in this last chapter of his life. So for example, if you really allow yourself to feel your anger about things your father said to you over the years, the way he influenced your self-esteem, you might feel more secure in going, oh, okay, I'm not gonna be there every single day for weeks at a time, trying to get my dad to go for a freaking walk, and I'm okay with that.

But if you allow yourself to locate your sadness and compassion for a flawed and wounded man, you might feel moved to take a few days off every so often to go be with them, and that time will probably be a lot more meaningful. My hope for you is that you get to a point where you can feel all of these things at once.

That's the name of the game. So your personal process and these practical questions about how to best care for your dad, they're all kind of connected. By doing one. I think you'll be doing the other.

[00:26:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well said Jordan. I completely agree. You know, she's writing in about her dad and how to be there for him, but I gotta say I am most struck by the impact that her father has had on her because the other thing that jumped out at me was when she said that her difficult experiences with her dad have made it nearly impossible for her to even want to try to build friendships.

[00:26:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's quite a thing to say.

[00:26:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: That Appalachian Trail comment, her father in that moment could not validate her excitement. He couldn't hold her joy alongside his own fear. I also have a strong feeling that his daughter's zest for life was probably a bit dangerous for him. I mean, here's a guy who sleeps 18 hours a day, who basically peaced out a life long before he got sick.

His daughter comes to him and she's like, I want to go full Cheryl Strai and have this beautiful life-affirming experience outta nature. I can imagine how that might have felt threatening to him if his daughter, who let's remember, also shares his depression and his anxiety. If she can go out and have a big meaningful experience in the world, and what excuse does he have.

But if that was threatening to him, it's probably because it brought up a lot of envy and a lot of shame for him. He didn't have the tools to go, man, my daughter's dreams are making me anxious. They're making me envious. You know, I'm kind of embarrassed. I need to work through those things on my own. And in the meantime I'm gonna ask my daughter some questions about, you know, how she plans to stay safe and I'm gonna try to be excited for her.

But instead he told her to pick out a casket. Right. He killed her dream.

[00:27:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:27:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: But what he was actually trying to kill, I think was his own feelings. And isn't the casket a perfect metaphor yet again for the bedroom that he went to sleep in all those years ago?

[00:27:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. The casket for the life he never lived, which he was then confronting in his own daughter.

[00:27:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, okay. Who's the English miner now, Jordan?

[00:27:57] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I like that. It's occasionally a broken

[00:28:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: clock

[00:28:00] Jordan Harbinger: is right twice a day,

[00:28:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: as they say. That's not actually a relevant metaphor.

[00:28:04] Jordan Harbinger: There's something about blindly swinging at a pitch and hitting a home run once in every 1000 tries. I dunno, we're

[00:28:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: getting further and further away from, from the, from the English department, but, okay.

See, see,

[00:28:14] Jordan Harbinger: I picked the right career after all. This is a pure serendipity, Gabe, when you put it like that. When I put it in those magical, flowery words, I'm finding it hard to be angry at this guy. I mean, look, I still am. I think this guy was a very flawed parent, and that's putting it nicely. Mm-Hmm. But you're right.

You don't crap on your child's amazing dream because you're happy and healthy, right? You crap on their dream because you're bitter and you're scared, and it's tragic. So I think your job now is to make peace with the father that you actually have. And yes, be there for him as he dies, but more importantly, to work through the legacy of this father and to start to heal those wounds.

And the beautiful news is you're holding a steady job. You have a partner, you have children, and I'm sure you're treating them very differently from how your father treated you. I also wanna say, hey, one day, if you ever wanna hike the Appalachian Trail or pursue any other goal that's calling to you, you can still do it.

It's never too late. There was a like an 83-year-old guy that hiked the Appalachian Trail. You could still do it. And when you do, I think you're gonna rewrite this one big wound from your childhood. And these experiences are gonna be even more meaningful because you'll have located the father you deserved inside of yourself.

And I know that sounds corny, but I hope you get to do that, my friend. Stay strong, stay present. We're sending you and your dad a big hug, and I hope you find some acceptance and peace as he goes through this transition. I. It really is kind of a shale stray thing, right? Like I need to hike the Appalachian Trail because it's a dream.

My father that I had a bad relationship with, quashed, it's like she walks out and it's like a cleansing right of and a healing trail. It really is like a shale stray. Yeah.

[00:29:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's making me want to hike the Appalachian Trail. Damn. Yeah, she should read that book if she hasn't already. I bet she'd love it.

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[00:30:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabe. My husband and I have been married for seven years and together for nine. We have a comfortable life and a lot to be grateful for. On our first date. We talked briefly about politics. He stated that he's conservative, but mostly just cares about the government staying out of his business, and I let him know that I've mostly voted Democrat and that I'm socially liberal.

I'm pro-choice and pro-gay marriage. I practice in healthcare a responsibility that I don't take lightly, and I love my job. His family is also very conservative Christian. We don't go to church, and that's been a sticking point for them. We also don't have children by choice, and my husband approaches this as he does everything else, not his problem.

If people have an issue with it. In the summer of 2016, he had some fringe ideas about Hillary Clinton, which I generally ignored. Love is blind, and we got engaged in October, 2016. In November, I watched in horror as Donald Trump was elected, which I didn't think was possible. My husband is a calm, levelheaded person.

He doesn't want to engage in angry conversation. While I have trouble controlling my emotions when talking about things like abortion or gender affirming care, we're now in the avoidance stage, which has trickled into our intimacy. When I bring these things up, he says that he doesn't perceive any issues with our voting differences or with our lack of intimacy.

Basically, everything is fine. You worry too much. I love you. I've been in therapy and on medication for anxiety and OCD since 2021, and it's made such a positive impact on my life. My therapist has encouraged me to talk more with my husband about anything, not just hot button issues, and I'm doing my best, but I'm worried that this mental block I have is gonna bubble up and result in an even bigger explosion, especially with another volatile election.

Quickly approaching. I love this man. Do I need to just let this go and accept that we have different beliefs on some things? Am I obsessing unnecessarily or is this gonna fester and result in something worse down the line? Signed looking for a resurrection ahead of this upcoming election.

[00:32:40] Jordan Harbinger: What a fascinating dynamic this is.

I gotta say, I really appreciate how open you're being with us, how much you wanna work on this because I agree this is a real challenge. Also, Gabriel, she's so self-aware. Like I lose emotional control when I'm talking about certain topics and I can just see like the conservatives in the audience being like, typical liberal, just feelings over everything, can't keep calm and, and while talking about it and I'm just sort of like snickering about that.

'cause I, she's aware of it. It's kind of a funny dynamic between them. But it look, it's interesting. I actually don't think that your challenge is politics per se. This is not primarily about Hillary, or maybe as your husband calls her, Hillary or Trump or reproductive rights or trans rights. And yeah, those are real divides between you and I don't, I don't mean to minimize that, but the fact that your husband's brand of conservatism isn't tied to anyone religious position, that it's mostly, you know, like keep the government outta my life.

I imagine that that would give you guys a lot more room to come together on certain things, or at least to agree that people should largely have the freedom to do what they want. The real issue, as you already know, is how you two communicate with each other and how you relate. And I think you're right, there's a lot of avoidance going on here, mostly on your husband's side of the equation.

And that to me is the real obstacle to intimacy and honesty and connection for sure. And I find it super interesting that your husband doesn't wanna engage in angry conversation, or that he doesn't see any issues with your voting differences or with your lack of intimacy, which by the way, not sure if you meant emotional intimacy or you were suggesting that all of this is now impacting your sex life somehow.

But I, I kind of get the sense that it's both. What was it? She said, Gabe, that when she brings this up, he's basically like, oh, everything's fine.

[00:34:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, everything's fine. You worry too much. I love you.

[00:34:16] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, oh, okay. I don't know about you, but I, I find that to be a pretty dismissive tack to take. I do too.

So she's going, Hey, these differences between us bother me. Our lack of a sex life bothers me. I wish we would talk more. And he's like kind of going, oh, you're making this up. Everything's fine. I love you. Bye. It just sort of sounds like gaslighting. I don't know. Yeah. Maybe I'm not being charitable enough with the guy.

[00:34:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, I find that pretty invalidating, actually.

[00:34:38] Jordan Harbinger: Super invalidating, man. 'cause look, I. Even if he's right. Even if, let's say her anxiety were fueling these concerns. Which just to be clear, I do not think that this is all her anxiety talking. I think these are very real and valid concerns, but even if she were inventing problems where there weren't any, to respond to your partner by saying, eh, that's not a thing.

You're being ridiculous. I love you. Okay, that's sweet. And maybe it's somewhat well intentioned, but that's not really a helpful or productive way to respond to your spouse. Mm-Hmm. A more helpful way to respond would be, Hey, I hear you that you have some concerns. I am not sure that I'm as concerned as you, but you know, tell me what's on your mind.

Let's talk about it. Then they can, you know, talk about it. Mm-Hmm. But he's not really making that possible right now. He's kind of like, everything's fine. My avoidance is intact.

[00:35:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Correct. All of these details are giving me the sense that these conflicts are very distressing to him. Right. But why? I don't know.

But we have a few clues in the letter. The first is this thing she said about how her husband handles the not having children thing with his family. Mm-Hmm. So his stance is not my problem if people have an issue with it. Yeah. Which on one hand, you know, kind of admirable. I mean, he sounds pretty secure.

Kind of boundaried. Yeah. It's up to them if they wanna have children. And I kind of appreciate that he's going, look, if my parents don't like that, that's their business. On the other hand, a little avoidant, a little like, has he not told his family? Look, this is our choice. You might not like it, but we're happy.

I respectfully ask you to respect our choice and not make us feel bad about it. Or at least shared with his parents their reasons for not having children. The other clue is that her husband is calm and level-headed. He doesn't want to engage in angry conversation, which again, there are two sides to that quality.

I can appreciate a dude who's chill and rational and who's not looking for a fight, especially when it comes to something like politics.

[00:36:20] Jordan Harbinger: But then is he also not willing to have those fights when they're necessary?

[00:36:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. And I have to imagine that that's really about his own feelings. You know, maybe he finds it intolerable to bear the tension of having a difference with somebody.

Maybe the sex thing specifically brings up a lot of shame and it's just really hard for him to talk about, let alone acknowledge. I. Look, maybe he's afraid of what would happen to the remaining connection that they do have if they leaned into these conflicts and really had it out. Although the irony is that they would probably only grow closer by really talking, even if it turns out that they have totally incompatible political beliefs.

[00:36:54] Jordan Harbinger: Or maybe this has less to do with politics and more to do with the general tone of their conversations. Mm-hmm. I have this feeling that her husband struggles to be on the receiving end of somebody else's intensity. Whether it's his wife talking about the Supreme Court or whether it's his family going like, why aren't you guys having any kids

[00:37:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: underneath this very stoic exterior of his?

There might be just as much volatility and passion as our friend here has. The only difference is he doesn't want to be in touch with it,

[00:37:20] Jordan Harbinger: right? Because again, too distressing, too chaotic,

[00:37:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: and therefore maybe kind of icky to him, which I can almost guarantee goes back to once again, his childhood. Yeah. The home he grew up in, how his family handled conflicts, how they handled big feelings,

[00:37:34] Jordan Harbinger: and also maybe how this conservative Christian upbringing, even if he's distanced himself from it, how that might have made sex a difficult topic to talk about.

Good point. I'm connecting a couple dots here. I don't know for sure, but I have a feeling that might be part of it.

[00:37:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, Jordan, now I'm wondering if the reason our friend here has trouble controlling her emotions is actually connected to her husband's neutrality because look, she might get very activated when it comes to reproductive rights and gender affirming care because you know, she genuinely cares about those issues and I believe that.

I also know that she desperately wants to communicate with her husband. She wants to be recognized, she wants to be listened to, she wants to listen to him. She wants to be connected, right? Even when they disagree, and he's making that very difficult right now. So when she gets worked up, when she gets flooded, I wonder if buried in that response is also a message.

And the message is, pay attention to me. See me. You know, take me seriously.

[00:38:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I can see that. But at the same time, she might also have some work to do in self-regulating in these conversations. Fair. So she's not only leading with her emotions and political debates,

[00:38:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: both can be true for sure. But to be fair, I don't think it's just her husband who's being avoidant in her own way.

She is too. She said that he had some fringe ideas about Hillary Clinton, which she generally ignored because love is blind.

[00:38:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yep. Interesting data point.

[00:38:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: And then she said this other interesting thing that she's worried that this mental block of hers is gonna lead to an even bigger explosion with the election coming, which kind of surprised me because I don't think this is a mental block at all.

[00:39:01] Jordan Harbinger: Now, that jumped out at me too.

[00:39:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: This is a legitimate concern about a very real issue between them. So framing it as a mental block, I don't know. It just makes me feel that she might be invalidating herself too, and that's another thing I think she could look at.

[00:39:15] Jordan Harbinger: I totally agree. So yes, I have no doubt that this election is gonna bring up a lot more of these conflicts with your husband and that this issue will fester and lead to something worse down the line as all unaddressed conflicts do.

But this isn't ultimately about Trump or kalo or the right to choose. This is about your husband's struggle to be in an open, communicative, vulnerable relationship with you. It's about your struggle to consistently own your experience and engage with your husband in a way that makes it safe for him to explore this stuff with you.

I'm very confident that you are not obsessing unnecessarily, although it is possible that the anxiety and the other personality traits are informing how you communicate with your husband. And that's something else that I would explore with your therapist. But yeah, I do not think you should just let this go.

I think this is a very important fundamental issue in your relationship. One, you guys can absolutely work on alone or with the help of a couple's therapist and one that you guys have to address if you're gonna have a truly fulfilling and high functioning marriage. So look, I hope you get to do that. I hope you remember to refill your Wellbutrin prescription before November 5th.

I mean, I, I guess I'm kind of kidding, but you know what I mean. So get to talking and good luck. Speaking of fringe ideas, you know what Hillary Clinton and Jeffrey Epstein have in common? They both love the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Progressive.

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[00:42:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabriel. After taking a year and a half break from corporate life to run my pet sitting service full-time, I recently took up a new role at an organization where we are all fully remote. This has been my dream setup. I always felt overwhelmed by the amount of chatter in an open office. In addition to the endless WhatsApp groups, emails and phone calls bombarding me every waking moment.

It also allows me to continue pet sitting from wherever the client's house is and caring for pets has been my saving grace. After two decades of abuse in the corporate world,

[00:42:45] Jordan Harbinger: I gotta say, that's brilliant. Doing a remote job while you're pet sitting, you're literally being paid double for the same time, and you're surrounded by dogs.

Nicely done,

[00:42:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: well played Madame. Well played. So she goes on. At first, the communication on our WhatsApp group was manageable. Then the sales manager created another group just for our sales team, where she posts every single morning to check in. She does this checking in before she emails me more work of hers that she clearly cannot do herself.

[00:43:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I can see how that would be annoying and also unfair.

[00:43:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: I understand that the other account manager and I are new, but the amount of over communication on these two groups, plus the emails and phone calls and other social media noise has got me spinning and it's only my second month at the company.

It would be fine if what was being said was useful information, but it's just chatter and I simply don't have the capacity for it.

[00:43:34] Jordan Harbinger: That's a crucial difference. Communication, even over communication. Hey, it could be productive and sometimes it's important just for the social fabric of the company,

[00:43:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: right?

People need to bond. They need to belong, especially when they're remote. I get that

[00:43:45] Jordan Harbinger: right? But if you're waking up to 80 messages from people going morning, everyone, did you catch the Olympics last night? Here's a photo of my latte. Anyone else loving these? Kamala brat Mees? Can I ask about that spreadsheet for the fifth time?

I mean, that's just a different. Animal entirely, and I right. I can't with that stuff, man. This is part of the reason I'm not cut out for corporate life. I feel you. I really do.

[00:44:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: I also understand that we're remote and it's nice to feel part of the company, but I've always been kind of a loner preferring to hang one-on-one or in smaller groups so I can really get to know and focus on a person.

Lemme just stop and say, Jordan, I am like this too. In a lot of ways she sounds like a classic introvert slash individual, and that's hard. It's hard to integrate into a company when you're, when you're that kind of person. I get

[00:44:28] Jordan Harbinger: that. Are you saying that you don't love the general channel of our slack? Is that what you're trying to tell me?

I'm saying

[00:44:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: if you can just take the chatter down a lot in the slack, stop

[00:44:38] Jordan Harbinger: posting memes of yourself. No, I don't do that. I gotta

[00:44:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: say, Jordan, one of my favorite things about our slack for the company is how little unnecessary. Talk. There is. I agree. Like when people share something, it's because there's a reason.

And yeah, we banter and have a little fun here and there, but it's like, it's not mindless. No, I really appreciate that.

[00:44:56] Jordan Harbinger: And it's also like every two days or three days, somebody makes a funny quip and other people respond and people click emojis. It's not like every hour someone posts a meme and everyone's expected to react to it.

Ain't nobody got time for that.

[00:45:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Truly. And there's some connection here to Cal Newport and guys like that who are talking about focus in this modern world, there are so many things that become jobs in and of themselves, and they take you away from the real substance of your, of your job. I, I, I get it.

It's frustrating. So she goes on. I've never had a problem maintaining professional relationships, and I'm confident that people remember me, even when I'm not talking a bunch of fluff to them every day. Also my role requires me to reach out to people to get new business. So I'm already talking to a lot of new people.

Okay? Mm-Hmm. She really doesn't wanna talk to people. I get it now. I wake up every morning dreading the day, and it's extremely exhausting mentally and emotionally. Some days it's not that bad, but in my mind it feels like I'm being bombarded and I just wanna be left the alone.

[00:45:50] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Separately, because I have a writing background, I've become the go-to person for editing and grammar, checking all company material for which I am not being compensated.

Whereas my sales colleague is sitting pretty doing sweet all in that regard. I initially offered my help for social media posts as I was noticing so many grammatical errors. It was embarrassing, but now suddenly I'm the resident editor. There's already someone doing the content, so I just feel like I'm being taken advantage of and doing this person's job on top of it all is just a bit much.

[00:46:20] Jordan Harbinger: Alright. Just to address this part right off the bat, because it's actually fairly simple. A, I love that you volunteered your help simply because you care and take pride in your company's work. It, it sounds like you're a grammar Nazi. Like Gabe. Yeah.

[00:46:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Two Nazi references in one episode. What a weird theme today.

[00:46:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, but two very different contexts, right? Sure. The husband from question one. Bad Nazi. This listener good Nazi.

[00:46:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: The kinda Nazi who doesn't spell lose with two O's. I got you. Yeah. I

[00:46:45] Jordan Harbinger: hate

[00:46:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: that. I hate that. Everybody hates that.

[00:46:47] Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, I love this quality of yours. It says a lot about you, but then, okay, B, now that you're providing this value and basically doing another person's job, you have total license to ask to be compensated for that work.

And if that would make you feel better, I think it's worth considering going for it. We're big fans of getting promotions like that, and you've laid the groundwork beautifully. I know it's annoying, but let's not lose sight of the fact that you are an effective and valuable employee with a great mindset.

And when you're ready, you can put a dollar value on that.

[00:47:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Now, I'm wondering if I'm in the right role at all. Maybe I'm just not built for this modern world and on a deeper level, I secretly despise being pushed into a writing and editing role, but it keeps happening no matter where I go. Okay, I'm sorry to stop again, but this is really interesting.

I love this part. So let's be clear about something. It doesn't keep happening. You keep offering because you're awesome and or you do a good job and your bosses ask you to keep doing it. So the resentment that you feel might not be about being pushed into a role that you didn't sign up for, it might be more about whether that work is happening on your terms, whether you're being compensated for it, which to Jordan's point is partly under your control now.

[00:47:55] Jordan Harbinger: Totally agree, man. There's so much going on here.

[00:47:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, there's a lot. So she wraps up. I wish I had the courage and talent to be an actual novelist, a creative writer who doesn't have a million people talking at me, and I can just get into a flow state in a peaceful, quiet place and produce a novel worth reading.

Maybe I shouldn't be part of a team at all. How do I cope? Signed growing impatient and managing expectations when I can't silence my notifications?

[00:48:21] Jordan Harbinger: Well, there are many layers to your story. It's actually pretty fascinating. So let's try to get to the heart of things here. First off, is it possible that you're in the wrong role, that you're not meant to work in teams, that you're not designed for this modern world at all?

Sure, it's possible. And if this kind of environment is not fulfilling or stimulating enough for you, or you're not being paid enough to deal with the parts you don't like, then it's absolutely fair to make a change. It's also possible that you're totally equipped to work in teams, and this isn't the team for you.

But I also suspect that the way you're interacting with this environment, the way you relate to your boss and your peers, how you manage all this communication, those are also shaping your experience. It's not as simple as like, my job is this way. The Fuller story is, my job is this way, I am that way, and they're making me do X and I respond with Y.

And together we create this experience called Dread. Mm-Hmm. So my first piece of advice is you need to learn how to stay on top of these communications in a way that isn't as taxing for you. The content and volume of the messages that that's not gonna change, but you can change in the way that you handle that part of your job.

That could look a few different ways. For example, it probably means setting aside part of your day just to catch up with your messages. It might be 20 minutes, it might be an hour, it might be once in the morning, and then once at the end of the day might be short bursts throughout the day. But you need to sort of quarantine that aspect of your job to specific windows where you go, okay, this is my dread window.

In this window. I experienced dread. I talk to my annoying boss, I see who needs what from me. I smash that prayer hands emoji on Dale from accounting stupid fricking latte art. And I do it because it's part of my job and it creates community. And also my boss is kind of hopeless and I'm managing it in a way where it doesn't take over my entire life.

Mm-Hmm. I think that'll get you a lot further than just, I dunno, coping. In fact, if you do this, I don't think you'll need to cope nearly as much and look. This isn't just time management and discipline and all of that. This is about creating psychological windows for yourself so that you can attend to these, frankly, not so fun responsibilities without feeling like you have eight unpleasant feelings dominating you all day, every day.

[00:50:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. Her work mind is like the worst version of inside out ever.

[00:50:32] Jordan Harbinger: Totally. There's dread, there's anxiety, there's resentment, there's overwhelm. Yeah,

[00:50:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: there's existential conflict.

[00:50:37] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. They're all fighting. There's introversion and they're all fighting. Yeah. They're all fighting for who gets to push the buttons on that control panel in the brain?

[00:50:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: This would actually be a great premise for inside Out three. Like RI grows up and gets a remote job at a tech company she hates when she really wants to like be a hockey coach or something.

[00:50:52] Jordan Harbinger: I, I guess I would watch that movie, so I should be forced to watch that movie with my kids. Highly relatable to me right now.

[00:50:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: By the way, the other thing that this might look like is learning to not take these communications too seriously, and by that I mean a lot of messages, emails, tweets, dms. They all seem so urgent, right? Your boss checks in. Somebody asks you for something in Slack, the social media person wants a proofread, your other colleague wants a sales update.

I mean, these things matter, of course, but you have to know which things matter the most. But when things are chaotic at work and you're balancing a lot of people's needs, you need to develop a force field around yourself so that other people's messages don't overwhelm you or topple you. You need to have like a, um, what was that phrase?

From like, high school biology, semi-permeable membrane. That's exactly what I was going to say. How did you know that? Yeah. What are you, my co-host or something? Yeah, a semi-permeable membrane where the relevant things get in when they need to, and the unnecessary things like meaningless chatter stay out.

It's actually a form of boundaries, and that's not something anybody else is gonna teach you because A, most people are not good at this, and B, it's not in your boss's interest to teach you how to not let her affect you too much. So you need to teach yourself this so you can learn not to be so emotionally entangled in the tone and the content of all of this stuff.

[00:52:07] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you need to turn this part of your job into a system and just work the system. Mm-hmm. Extract the necessary information from these messages. Figure out your to-dos and next steps. Deliver on your promises and just keep moving.

[00:52:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's also remember that this is only her second month at this company.

She's still so new and those first few months, uh, I would say like the first six to nine months of a new job are very overwhelming. You know, you're still learning the rules, the politics, the personalities. You're figuring out what you do need to pay attention to, what you don't need to pay attention to.

So I think she's still in that phase. And actually I do believe that this will get easier. I also think there might come a point where she can say to her boss, Hey, you know, these morning check-ins where you text me. I appreciate it. I know you wanna be on top of me and you wanna make sure we're all in sync, but I've got this now.

You know, I think we can skip the morning, check-in, and I'm gonna circle back with you in the afternoon. Is that okay with you? Maybe that will be the solution. But also let us remember, we are hearing from a writer here.

[00:53:01] Jordan Harbinger: True. Y'all are a sensitive bunch. Maybe that's easier said than done.

[00:53:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think she can totally do all of this, but again, she's an introvert who has this dream of being a novelist.

So I would not be surprised if our friend here is also more sensitive and thoughtful than most people and can be deeply affected by all of this stimulus. So yes, maybe she needs a place that fits those qualities better, but also being super empathic, being very sensitive. Those might not always be entirely helpful in a traditional job in your writing.

It's essential. So maybe part of this process is calibrating those wonderful qualities of yours and figuring out when to deploy them and when to quiet them down a little bit so you can just function. But what we really need to acknowledge here is that you have this dream to write a book, and it sounds like part of your distress right now is that this job is taking you away from that goal.

And if that's really what you long to do, then you're gonna have to find a relationship with your writing that fits in with your jobs. I do wonder if all of this communication stuff feels worse right now, not because the communication is so intense, but because it's at odds with your true purpose. And what you really need to do is resolve what career you are actually building.

Or maybe you have some more complicated feelings about your writing and that's spilling over into your work stuff. For example, maybe part of your resentment about being the unofficial copywriter is that your company is benefiting from your talent without paying you anymore. And meanwhile, you are not benefiting from your own talent in the way that you want.

Or here's another theory, maybe your reluctance to ask your company to compensate you fairly. Maybe that's showing up in your personal writing too, and that's why it doesn't feel good, because this is a skill that you need to develop in general. So again, there is probably a whole bunch of stuff going on on your side of the equation here, and all of that is informing how you feel about this job.

[00:54:47] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, interesting point. Also, just to say, if you do decide to go full-time into your writing, it's not gonna solve all your problems. You're just gonna have new ones. And those might be just as challenging as the ones in this job, maybe even more challenging because they'll be entirely about you and your process, which is brutal.

And that's why you can't win. No, I'm just kidding. But also not.

[00:55:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, but you're right. It's important to recognize that the fantasy of being self-employed, the fantasy of, you know, being a creative working alone. Mm-Hmm. Very seductive. But it doesn't mean that it's gonna create a life that is entirely free of stress.

[00:55:18] Jordan Harbinger: And if you're gonna pursue your fiction writing seriously, I do it because you really feel called to that work. Mm-Hmm. Which it sounds like you might, and not just because it's an escape from other people. And like I say on the show, from time to time, when you start your own things, you don't wanna be running away from something, you wanna be running towards something.

For example, I wanted to start this show way back when, because I was doing it in my spare time, every waking moment when I wasn't working. And I was trying to do this stuff in between doing all this other stuff, not because I hated the law and I wanted to escape from Wall Street. Just something to keep in mind as you consider pursuing your creative writing.

You wanna be running towards something you love, not like I hate my boss. I should just start my own business. So before you quit or you go full Jane Austen and decide that this modern world just is not for you, I'd give these ideas a try and just see how they change your experience at work. They can't make it worse, but if they don't make it better, you'll still get great experience showing up in a new way, and that is incredibly valuable.

You've got this good luck recommendation of the week. I am shocked by the amount of people, Gabriel, that do not have Yeti mugs. And it doesn't have to be Yeti brand. It has to be those kinds of like double wall Mm-Hmm. Aluminum mugs. Whenever I take an Uber, for example, I see these people and they have like a plastic bottle.

And I go, isn't your drink just warm and gross? Mm-Hmm. After a few hours? And they're like, yeah, it sucks, but what am I gonna do? I go to a seven 11 every two hours and I refill it with ice. I'm like, what a pain in the ass. My Yeti mug. I fill that thing up with ice and I put whatever in there and I come back like six hours later after leaving it in a a car that's over a hundred degrees and it still has ice in it.

Amazing. Throw out all of your old cups and replace 'em with these.

[00:56:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: I love the Yeti mug. Somebody gave me a gift. Actually my producer, my dear friend Brenna, gave me a personalized Yeti mug with the name of my short film. It was her rap gift for all of the casting crew. Nice. I use this thing every single day and yeah, you can put hot tea in there in the morning and then you come back in the night and it's still piping hot.

That thing is incredible. That's crazy. It's funny 'cause Yeti is not like the coolest hips design. It's not like the Stanley Cup or whatever.

[00:57:21] Jordan Harbinger: That's the trending one right now it's Stanley,

[00:57:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: but that's what I love about Yeti that, that they have this like classic kind of like slightly frumpy camping vibe to them.

Mm-Hmm. It's like a little bit funny looking, but the technology is incredible. Big fan.

[00:57:34] Jordan Harbinger: Yep. All right. That's our recommendation. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show. If you wanna jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes or just the show in general, if there was an episode you really liked, an episode you really didn't like, you wanna share some additional thoughts or learn more from other people in our show, fam, definitely come check it out.

Some really cool conversations happening over there. You can find that on Reddit in the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

[00:57:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, next up. Dear Gabe and Jordan, I've been with my boyfriend for five years. He's my first ever proper boyfriend. We own a house and we've been together pretty nicely since we got together.

Then about six months ago, I met somebody at work. Let's call him Bob. Bob noticed me and approached me first, and we gravitated to each other. He has a long-term partner and kids, but constantly reminded me that he's very unhappy in his relationship.

[00:58:23] Jordan Harbinger: Scumbag.

[00:58:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: We formed a friendship and genuinely cared about each other.

Mm-Hmm. After a while, we had a conversation about our feelings for each other, but decided that nothing more would ever happen because of our situations. For the next few months, I was very happy. Even though I was sharing my life with my boyfriend, Bob gave me attention and made me feel cared for and loved.

Then after four months, Bob left that job on his last day. We went for a swim in the lake, got some food, and at the end of that beautiful day, it was hard to let go. We laughed and said that it felt like a breakup, but a good one because we still had love for each other. And I thought that was it, that we could go back to our lives, but have this happy little memory that never turned into something we might regret Uhhuh until, until he started messaging me and our messed up relationship continued, and we even met up a couple of times, one of which was with his kids.

[00:59:18] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my, Ugh. Come on, man. Yes, it's catching.

[00:59:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: The messaging continued for a while. Bob implied that we should move to another company and start working together again. Then one day we went on a trip with our friends. We ended up alone the first night and I asked him what this thing between us was. He became quite defensive and said there was no point in continuing this because I would never leave my boyfriend and he'd never leave his girlfriend and children.

And that was pretty much the last time we spoke. I asked him the next day if we could talk, but he brushed it off. I've tried to be as fair and honest as I can and do right by the people I love, but I now find myself in a horrible situation. I don't know if I have the strength to look my boyfriend in the eyes every day knowing I had feelings for somebody else.

Bob and I never kissed, but just the fact that he was in my life feels like something I should tell my boyfriend because he's my best friend and it feels like I'm keeping a part of my life secret from him. I know that our trust can never be mended once it's broken, but I feel as if I failed him and he deserves someone better.

Should I reach out to Bob and see how he's feeling as he still somebody I care for deeply and I never wanted to hurt him. I don't wanna pursue anything with him. I just want it to end on good terms because we work in an industry where we might bump into each other

[01:00:40] Jordan Harbinger: as if,

[01:00:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: why do you think he ended? Things like that. And most importantly, should I tell my boyfriend about all of this? Signed taking the sting out of coming clean about this emotional fling.

[01:00:51] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, good questions. First of all, your relationship with Bob, it was obviously very complicated. There was a layer of genuine friendship.

There was a layer of flirtation and romantic interest. There was a layer of two colleagues who really got on kind of like a work wife, work husband situation, but obviously you guys had real romantic feelings for each other. You shared some pretty intimate conversations and experiences, which I think probably falls under the category of emotional cheating since the relationship wasn't clearly defined and your boyfriend wasn't aware that this person was even in your life.

That said, I do wanna give you guys some credit for being somewhat responsible. You didn't wanna do anything you'd regret, which I commend you for, and it sounds to me like you both knew what was at stake if you really went for it, and that's probably gonna make your next move easier now. So look, before we talk about Bob and your boyfriend, let's talk about you putting aside the ethical quandary for a moment here.

I think this relationship with Bob has revealed a lot about you, about what you want from your friends, from your partners, about what you're getting from your boyfriend, what you might not be getting about your values, about your boundaries, about the qualities you respond to in other people, and what roles they're playing in your life.

The first thing you need to do, and this is work for yourself, is to take a step back and try to understand what this relationship with Bob was all about. What aspects of yourself got revealed through this interesting friendship? For example, what is it that Bob gave you that you didn't have? Looking back, did you really need that love and care from this person?

If you did, then what does that tell you about your current relationship? What does it tell you about Bob? If you didn't, then why did you continue engaging with him at all? What made it hard for you to say, Hey Bob, I really care about you. I know you care about me. Our relationship means a lot, but I have a partner, so do you.

I wanna be clear about the meaning in terms of our relationship. I wanna be good friends. I want to tell my boyfriend about you. What do you want? Or look, if you felt that Bob was the better partner for you. What stopped you from going, okay, I'm wanting to explore this relationship, but if I'm gonna do that fairly, I need to end things with my boyfriend first, and I need to give Bob the opportunity to consider redefining things with his partner.

Those are just a few of the big questions that come to mind, and what I'm getting at is every relationship we form, every choice we make, they teach us something crucial about ourselves. If you put aside the judgment and the shame for a moment here, and I'm not saying they're inappropriate, I'm just saying on the level of you having some curiosity and compassion for yourself, if you put those things aside and you ask yourself what this emotional fling with Bob is trying to tell you, I think you'll arrive at some important insights and you'll be better prepared for any conversations with your boyfriend about all of this.

If I were you. I'd be more curious about that right now than about whether to reach out to Bob and see how he's feeling or whatever.

[01:03:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: I could not agree more. Jordan now about the Bob of it all. I understand that she's conflicted about whether to continue with him, and I do believe that on some level, one of her reasons for wanting to reach out is to end on good terms, blah, blah, blah.

So it's not awkward, but as you can tell, I think those are probably clever reasons for reaching out and seeing if there's still some territory for them to explore.

[01:03:59] Jordan Harbinger: Definitely.

[01:03:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: She's also asking us why did he end things like that, and honestly, we can't know the answer to that. I'm getting the sense that Bob carried a lot of guilt over your relationship.

Probably a lot of sadness and frustration, a lot of conflict, just like you were by the time you guys ended up on that trip together. He probably needed to cut ties and step back in order to get some clarity or just some relief, which again, I can understand. I also think it's important for you to remember this is a guy who is very unhappy in his relationship, but doesn't seem to be willing to do something about it.

Someone who's settling for an unhappy relationship and presumably he was unhappy before he met you, and that was probably one of the reasons that he pursued you. That is a person who has a lot of other important issues to work on. Aside from you honesty, integrity, self understanding, courage. Without knowing all the details, I can almost promise you that Bob struggles with some pretty big stuff and he would have a lot of work to do before he could be a truly fulfilling partner to you and also before he could engage with you in a way that was healthy and fair.

And the reason I'm saying this is I think it's important to de idealize Bob here and to really make sure that you are seeing this guy clearly warts and all, so that when you think about whether to reach out to him, you are in a relationship with all of Bob as he truly is, and not just the version of Bob that was so enticing these past six months.

[01:05:21] Jordan Harbinger: Great point, Gabe. I also think there's a part of her that wants to reach out to him so she can ask him that question. You know, why did you end things like that. I need closure.

[01:05:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: And that's probably one of the hardest parts about all of this, right? Feeling like this person she was so close with is now mysterious and inaccessible.

That's hard.

[01:05:36] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's a ambiguous loss.

[01:05:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: So my take is yes, put the Bob conversation on ice and do what Jordan said. Learn to tolerate the discomfort of not being in contact with Bob and just focus on yourself. You can always reach out to Bob down the road if that's appropriate, but reaching out to him now, I think that might be a way to sort of short circuit these feelings or circumvent them or shift the focus to this other guy when it really should be about you and what you're gonna do about your boyfriend.

[01:06:04] Jordan Harbinger: So the million dollar question, should she tell her boyfriend about all this?

[01:06:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: My short answer is yes.

[01:06:10] Jordan Harbinger: I think that's mine too. But man, is that gonna be hard? I am cringing so hard just thinking about that.

[01:06:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: But like you said, the fact that they didn't ever get physical, I do think that's gonna make it easier.

Yeah. My longer answer, by the way, is that I think you need to go through this process that Jordan described and get clear on what this whole Bob relationship meant and what it was designed to teach you. If you do that, you're gonna be in a much better position to know, first of all, if you still wanna be with your boyfriend, which it sounds like on many levels you do.

But second, if you do what you need to tell him about this thing with Bob so that you guys can resolve this and move forward in a new way,

[01:06:42] Jordan Harbinger: which means coming clean about the emotional affair, but more importantly, telling her boyfriend why she was drawn to Bob. mm-Hmm. Why she kept it a secret from him.

What she's learning from this whole experience

[01:06:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: and how she intends to show up differently in their relationship going forward, especially as it relates to honesty. Yeah. Like how do I share these parts of my life with you? Is it okay for me to have guy friends? Can you trust me to have guy friends? Which might be a little dicey after this experience, but that's why she hid it because she was either trying to protect him from certain feelings he would have about her having an intimate relationship with another guy.

Or she felt like maybe this was unsafe in their relationship. I think there's a lot that's going unspoken. That's the problem. And if she doesn't wanna stay with her boyfriend, ultimately, then I might still encourage her to come clean to him because I still feel like he would deserve to know. And I think he's gonna need some explanation.

But that's up to her.

[01:07:29] Jordan Harbinger: I think either way, she needs to come clean because she can't move forward with fairness and integrity in, in a way that doesn't leave her boyfriend, who sounds great in the dark.

[01:07:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: My only final thought is this, yes, part of your job in this conversation is to tell your boyfriend the facts of what happened, but this is not a one and done thing.

This is probably gonna be quite a shock to your boyfriend. It might be very painful for him. And you guys are gonna have to go through a process together to make sense of this and to figure out these unspoken things that you guys are not addressing, if that's what you both want. So I would also prepare to make a lot of space for him in this conversation.

You're not just gonna have to tolerate your feelings in all of this. You're also gonna have to tolerate his, which means bearing that tension, feeling that sadness, being willing to dive into the regret, the guilt, and being gracious and patient while you each move through this in your own way. Just keep that in mind as you prepare for this chat.

[01:08:20] Jordan Harbinger: You know, Gabe, I think she's about to learn how to deliver a really difficult piece of news. Mm-Hmm. And to take accountability for what she did and sit in the pain of that as they either work through this or they break up with all the information on the table. Right. But also, I have a strong feeling she'll never make this mistake again because now she knows the awful position that it puts everybody in.

Right? And how much easier it would've been to either stay away from Bob or process her feelings and define the relationship the way it needed to be defined. Mm-Hmm. But this is how we learn, right? One of the first things she said was that this guy is her first ever proper boyfriend. So it might be her first time navigating these situations.

And so I give her some grace as a probably young-ish person who is learning an important lesson the hard way right now. So, go do your work, go have this conversation, and trust that the, uh, the bob of it all as, as Gabriel said, will become clearer in time. The next time you meet somebody who means a lot to you, especially a male, someone, you're gonna be much better equipped to make the relationship healthy and fair, or to put that person in their proper place in your life, which is a skill, and I commend you for developing it.

Good luck. Hope y'all enjoyed that. I wanna thank everyone who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you all so much. Go back and check out James Sexton two parts. Super insightful. Wisdom from a divorce lawyer who's also divorced. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network.

The circle of people I know, like and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six minute networking course. It is free. It's not gross, it's not schmoozey. You can find it on the Think Offi platform@sixminutenetworking.com. The drills take a few minutes a day. This is the stuff I wi I wish I knew 20 years ago.

Dig the well before your thirsty folks. Build relationships before you need them again, over@sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes, transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi.

This show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing things that you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others.

Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please do share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. Discover how withholding bathroom breaks can be a strategic negotiation tactic.

Why everyone should try entrepreneurship at least once and when it's acceptable to burn bridges.

[01:10:55] Clip: I left Marvel, remember of the straw that broke the camel's back. We started Image Comic book. I had to create my own character, my own comic book. I pulled out this character called Spawn. Somebody I created when I was a kid, when I was 16.

Spawn comes out, ends up setting a record for the most sales ever by a creator that is non-corporate. And I've never drawn a page for Marvel or DC since I think there are thousands that are way, way, way, way, way better than me. I don't say that humbly. I say that as a fact, but there's another piece to it.

Then there's the hustle, and I am relentless on that part. What I'm not ever trying to do is slay the giant. I'm never gonna do it. I'm not big enough. I don't have enough resources to do it. That's not the goal. The goal is to survive amongst the giants and to thrive amongst the giants. And then you get to ask sort of the ironic question, why can't the giant kill me?

They've got nothing but time and effort and money and resources and they can't squash me. And then in the toy business, I've got a toy business. I go up against the Hasbros and Mattels of the world, and those are Fortune 500 companies. I literally am at War Against Giants every day of my life. I either accept what's in front of me or I go and change it.

If you're successful at art, then the byproduct of that is cash. Cash to me is sort of, should be sort of the last thing in the equation.

[01:12:25] Jordan Harbinger: Dive deeper into these intriguing topics and more in episode 9 99 of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Todd McFarlane. This episode is sponsored in part by de Hanser. If you're into giving your photos and videos that nostalgic retro vibe, you gotta check out de Hanser online.

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