1036: James Sexton | A Divorce Lawyer’s Guide to Lasting Love Part Two

1036: James Sexton | A Divorce Lawyer's Guide to Lasting Love Part Two

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[00:00:00] James Sexton: Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger show. If you genuinely wanted to improve the state of marriage, you would probably create some barriers to entry. Like to learn how to drive, you've gotta take a written test, then you have to get a learner's permit. Then you have a period of time that's un waveable that you have to learn how to drive.

Then you have to take an exam that shows you know how to do this thing, and then you're allowed to get a driver's license marriage. You can meet a stripper in Vegas, and Elvis will marry you for 50 bucks, 20 minutes later.

[00:00:36] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks.

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These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation and cyber warfare, crime and cults and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit Jordan harbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started today, part two, with James Sexton.

If you haven't heard part one, of course, go back and listen to that. We are diving deep into the business of marriage. More specifically divorce and love itself. Here we go, part two with James Sexton. It sounds to me like you believe. In love, but not necessarily in marriage.

[00:01:45] James Sexton: Is that accurate? I think those two things are not causal, and I'm not even sure they're correlated.

I'm a huge believer in love. Yeah, it sounds like, I think love is the greatest thing. It's the why we're here. I think that it, I mean, it's literally why we're here. Mm-Hmm. And it's also, I think, the purpose of life. I mean, the greatest things I've, I've been loved and I've loved, and there is nothing in the world that it has the, the value of loving and being loved as far as I can see.

And so that's the greatest. It should be the height of what we're looking for in life and looking to create in life. I don't know what marriage has to do with that. Marriage is a contract. Marriage is a legal status. I understand. I get pilled in the comments every time I do an appearance saying, you know, well, marriage is a covenant.

People marry because of God and everything is okay. Cool. That's,

[00:02:33] Jordan Harbinger: well, yeah. That's their belief system. First, listen, my

[00:02:35] James Sexton: beliefs don't require that you believe them, so that's fine. Like if you believe that, then knock yourself out. Like, fill your boots buddy. But you know, it's not gonna change the divorce rate.

I think ultimately I believe in love and I believe that marriage is a conception of the state. And it's, when I'm talking about marriage, I'm talking about the law. I'm talking about the legal status of marriage. Mm-Hmm. I'm not talking about the sacrament of marriage, I'm not talking about religious covenant marriage.

I am talking about the legal status. And to me, two people who are very in love with each other and one of them says, let's get the government involved. Yeah. Makes no sense to me.

[00:03:16] Jordan Harbinger: You've seen the end of a lot of marriages and I'm, do you think that's the reason that you don't believe so much in marriage or were you kind of always this way?

Did you have personal stuff that came into it? Were your parents all right?

[00:03:26] James Sexton: Um, no. My parents were married for over 50 years until my mom passed away and my dad was at her bedside when she passed away. And, and, uh, she had a long battle with cancer and. Um, they had a lovely marriage. I think like any long-term marriage, they had their challenges within it.

[00:03:38] Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah.

[00:03:39] James Sexton: But they loved each other very, very well. Their lives were better for each other's presence and so, and in my own marriage, ended in divorce, but was a very friendly divorce when my kids were quite little. They were five and seven and now they're 25 and 27. And my ex-wife's still one of my close friends and she's been remarried for over a decade to an awesome guy who I welcome as he's been part of my family now for many years.

So I don't think it was a personal vendetta with marriage. I think it's just doing what I do for a living and looking at the numbers in an honest way. I just think we put things on marriage that don't belong to marriage. We default to marriage as a good idea when clearly it is not a good idea for many of the people who engage in it.

I'm just not sure why there aren't barriers to entry like we've created as a society a lot of barriers to exit. Even with no fault divorce, it is challenging and expensive to get divorced even if you don't have any property together. Even if you don't have children together, it's still a couple of grand and some headache to get divorced, and at worst it can be millions of dollars in counsel fees.

So with so many barriers to exit and anytime a barrier to exit is even slightly modified, everybody goes on the right, in particular, goes ballistic and is like, how are you making it so easy to get divorced? You're gonna, people are just gonna run. Which by the way is so funny to me. I. If you're like, we have to board up the doors because if we don't, everyone's gonna leave.

It's like, well then maybe they should leave. Yeah. Yeah. Like if everyone's so miserable, like, maybe this isn't a good idea, gang.

[00:05:18] Clip: Right, right. Like, '

[00:05:19] James Sexton: cause if the idea is like, well, we have to marry to procreate and we have to pro, like, really guys, like, are we the ideology of a virus? Is that what's gonna be our governing principle now?

Is that like, we have to reproduce why? So that they, we can create offspring. Who can reproduce. Yeah. Like, wow. That's the whole goal, huh? That's the whole nobility of our society. That's what we're heading towards. So I don't have a thing against marriage when it works. I've said in the past, and again, I, everything I say I get pillared for is why I don't read the comments.

You shouldn't. YouTube I don't, is, yeah. I don't the lowest common denominator of human. I don't, 'cause I just don't, and, and I get emails and like, I, I just don't pay much attention to it because again, my beliefs don't require that you believe them, gang. And this isn't like, I'm not an academic, like I'm not here like speculating as to I'm, I'm down here with my nose in it.

And you can sit there in your academic world or in a psychologist chair, wherever you're calling me from, right? And say, oh, yeah. Well, that's not true. Okay. Maybe it's not true of your marriage. I've seen thousands of marriages end. You're like, Neil deGrasse Tyson arguing with a flat earth, and you're just like, what am I doing?

Like, we're not even talking the same language, man. And the truth is like even when he says, some of it is speculation. Sure. Like what I'm doing is no, this is what's going on. Like this is the reality of it. And I'm, listen, I, there's lots of reality I don't like either, but I have an honest relationship with reality.

Yeah. So I genuinely think that marriage, when it goes right, I have said. Marriage is like the lottery, you're probably not gonna win. And I don't mean that there's infinitesimally small chances of you winning. There's pretty good chance. And by the way, unlike the lottery, there's things you can do to make a marriage successful.

So the lottery is pure luck. But what I mean when I say that is, look, you gotta be in it to win it. So I get it that people buy a ticket, but why not be honest with yourself about the likelihood of this failing and then A, being vigilant about not having that happen. And B, having plans in place for if it doesn't, in the form of a prenuptial agreement, because every marriage has a prenup.

It's either one written by the government, right, or one written by the two people that like each other so much that they go and you know, outta 8 billion people in the world. I'm picking you. So to me, I think you're better qualified these two people to make the rules that are gonna govern their coupling than the future legislators.

'cause I, I've very rarely seen a problem that I go, you know, politicians definitely improve that. Yeah. Like, there's no way, there's no way I would sign up to have the most fundamental truths of my life where I live. My kids, my finances governed by a, a shape shifting legislature. Whatever state I happen to be in at the time.

At time, the marriage breaks down. Right? Are you kidding me? You're gonna let that govern. So yeah. I am not a fan of marriage in the sense that I think the way we currently do it doesn't make sense. But I think love is the greatest thing in the world, period. It's interesting,

[00:08:08] Jordan Harbinger: right? Because if you have a prenup or a postnup that you create, you can dictate a lot of the things that will happen in your relationship with your children, with your assets.

If you don't get married, you almost, is there a way to create a legal contract that is binding that says like, Hey, we're not getting married, but we have to live in California unless we mutually agree not to. 'cause I don't wanna be 500 miles away from my kids. There's

[00:08:28] James Sexton: whole, and we have a whole body of case law because before marriage equality, a lot of what we did were cohabitation agreements for same sex couples.

There you go. Because marriage wasn't an option. Early in my career, I was part of a group. I was a consulting attorney for Lambda Legal and I was with a group of lawyers. Some were estate planning lawyers, some were real estate lawyers. And I was kind of the family lawyer of the, of the group. And we used to go to Episcopal churches.

They would let us use their space in the state of New York, all over New York. And we used to give seminars on what same sex couples could do since they couldn't get married. So like you can put your property in an LLC and you can create a partnership agreement and you can actually like treat your coupling like it was a corporation where you each bring, like, you know, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak both did different things for Apple.

Mm-Hmm. But they both had, you know, ownership, you know, so we created all these interesting like hacks and ways to do stuff because we didn't have marriage equality. And so that was like what we did. So now, yeah, there's tons of ways, there's a long body of case law supporting people's ability to contract to whatever they want to contract to.

Like, you and I can go out tomorrow and buy a property together and say, okay, I'm investing the money and you're gonna fix it up. And then we're gonna share in the proceeds the following way and. You can have essentially the equivalent of a prenup in a relationship where you're not getting married.

[00:09:47] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's, I bring this up because I think a lot of people listening are, oh, I can't do that 'cause I'm not getting married, so I'm totally off the hook.

And I, I wanna sort of highlight that that's not necessarily the case. Yeah, no, that's not

[00:09:57] James Sexton: the case. I mean, you know, not marrying certainly does protect you from certain types of exposure. Mm-Hmm. And most jurisdictions eradicated common law, marriage, or what we used to call like alimony, which was like the alimony you pay to a person you weren't married to.

Most jurisdictions have gotten rid of those concepts. So the truth is, what you really want to connect with is what is it that we expect of each other? What is the, and again, it's like a business partnership in any business partnership, like it's an economy. Like you would never look at your business partner and say, you know, you seem very concerned about money.

Right. You're my business partner, of course. Like, what? Yeah, please be more concerned about money. So like, why wouldn't your roommate, like if you're moving in with someone and they said like, well, you seem very concerned about like where you're gonna live. Right? Yeah. Like that's a pretty normal thing to be concerned about.

You know? Like, I'm gonna move in with you and I'm gonna give up where I live, and if we break up, you're the owner of this property, so I'm gonna need, 'cause you make a lot more money than me. I'm gonna need money to get myself a place. You know, I'm gonna need to be able to take the furniture that I brought.

Or if we buy furniture, like if I buy furniture for this place, does it stay here? Does it go with me? Why not have a conversation about those things and then codify it in some way. I don't think that's unromantic, I think that's pragmatic. I think that it's an act of love to say to your partner, Hey. I understand what you're scared of.

Like I know you trust me, but you know it's okay to to go, but if, but if because why wouldn't you? Like why? Why wouldn't you? If somebody says, Hey, I know you're a good driver, but I'm gonna wear my seatbelt. You know, like if somebody puts on a seatbelt, I don't look at them and go, what do you think? I'm a bad driver?

And say, no, you might not cause the accident, somebody else might. That's right. Or maybe you look like you're a good driver, but you're gonna get distracted somehow. Like, you're certainly not gonna intentionally, I'm not putting on the seatbelt 'cause I know you're gonna intentionally drive us into a wall.

Like that's a ridiculous thing. But you wouldn't be offended. But having any conversa, again, it's this bubble that we've created as a society that if you even dare be pragmatic when talking in matters of love, you somehow don't believe in love. And I think it's the biggest crock of bullshit that's ever been sold to us.

I think there is something, in my view, incredibly romantic. About being honest with each other, about, here's what I'm scared of, here's what I never want us to turn into. Here's what I worry we would turn into. And I don't want to, I'm believing in this. So because I believe in it. Like, let's make each other really comfortable.

Like, I kind of love when you're in a relationship and you don't have to ask for what you need. Like, that's one of the best things about being in a relationship is when the person anticipates your needs and tries to meet them without you having to ask like a beggar with a cup out. Like it feels nice to have somebody go like, oh, I got you there.

'cause I, I know you like those mm-Hmm. Like that's what better act of love is there than that. So why not say to your partner, listen, I know you trust me. I know you love me, but you know what, I just never want you to be afraid. That if we split up, you're not gonna be taken care of. Like, I love you. If I love you, there's nothing you could do that would make me want you to just burn in.

Hell fire for all of it's why I never could really, even being raised Catholic my whole life, I never could get on with the whole Christianity hell thing. Mm-Hmm. Like the God who loves us, like a good father according to Jesus. Like, I'm a good father. I'd like to think I'm a me, at least a mediocre father.

And there's, I can tell you there's nothing my kids could do that I would go, well, you need to be an eternal torment. Yeah. For eternity. You're going to be torment. Like there's nothing, there's, listen, there's some stuff they could do that I'd be like, all right, I'm not talking to you anymore. Yeah, sure.

I'm not hanging out with you anymore. Like, I'm not letting you borrow the car. You know? But there's nothing they could do that I would go, well, hell fire for you for all of eternity. Right. That's craziness. Like what kind of vindictive psychopath is that? Yeah. That's an old Testament God, so, so I get it.

But the truth is, Mm-Hmm. Like with humans, I think there's nothing wrong If you love me, if I love you. Like, I'm not gonna weaponize against you and I'm not gonna be afraid to talk about how to keep you feeling safe. We should all feel safe in our relationships

[00:14:02] Jordan Harbinger: speak. You mentioned iMessage before, almost did a, what's his name?

[00:14:06] James Sexton: Tim Cook. You know in my dm. That's right.

[00:14:08] Jordan Harbinger: All of a sudden my, all of a sudden my phone's gonna stop. We're gonna be like, damnit. What happened?

[00:14:11] James Sexton: Yeah. They're not allowed to use Apple product. I'm sorry, Tim. I have, every single one of my devices is an Apple device. I want you to know my office is an Apple office.

[00:14:17] Jordan Harbinger: Now you're extra exposed. Social media has to be like a cheating machine. Oh yeah.

[00:14:22] James Sexton: One of the chapters in my book, 'cause it was written in 2018. Is called, um, if we were gonna invent an infidelity generating machine, it you would be called Facebook.

[00:14:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's, I I would change now to say it would be called Instagram,

[00:14:32] James Sexton: but it's

[00:14:32] Jordan Harbinger: meta company, so it's the same thing.

Sorry. Sorry, mark. You must see a lot of, well, this DM or, I mean, it's just got aside from the, your office, it's invitation.

[00:14:41] James Sexton: Aside from the algorithm feeding us, like everything that it figures out we like in terms of visual stimulation, just pull up the suggested and show it to your partner. My explore tab, I'm like

[00:14:52] Jordan Harbinger: offended that it knows me so well.

It knows me too well.

[00:14:55] James Sexton: Yeah. Yeah. And when I look at it, I'm like, Ooh, that is, that is not great. I. Yeah, that, I mean, look, the algorithm pushes us in directions, but also, again, people don't set out to ruin their lives well, right? Like people don't wake up and go, you know, I'm gonna screw my life up today. It just happens, right?

And so I think it's a series of small bad choices. Yeah, I was gonna say that. And one of the most common ones is social media gives us entry points into conversation with people that we really have no business talking privately with. Like that, it's just a temptation that we're not gonna be able to handle.

You hang out in a barber shop long enough, you're gonna get a haircut. Like you, you put somebody in touch with someone they're attracted to Sure. On a regular basis and flirtation is gonna start. It's the nature of the creature that we are. So social media creates all of these opportunity points to start talking to each other.

[00:15:44] Jordan Harbinger: It seems like in the eighties, and I was a kid then, so I don't really know. Yeah. But it seems like in the eighties you'd have to, as a guy, you'd have to like see one of the other soccer moms and then you'd have to somehow go through a little bit of effort to create an opportunity. Oh yeah. Where you're talking to them and then it happens again and there's not other people around.

It happens again and again and again. It evolves. And guess what?

[00:16:03] James Sexton: People did it. They still did it. Even then, like so even with all of these barriers, I mean go back further, God gave 10 commandments if you believe that. And two of them were, don't sleep with people you're not married to. Don't commit adultery.

Don't covet your neighbor's wife. Those are two separate commandments. Thou shall not kill God once. Only had to say that once. Mm-Hmm. So this is a problem. It's been around for a while. It's a human problem. I think ultimately, even when it was hard to do, people did it in abundance. So now it's so easy to cheat.

I mean, you can be sitting on the couch next to your spouse talking with someone who you're trying to sleep with or actively sleeping with. Yeah. And what are you doing on your phone? Like no one would ever, what are you doing on your phone? You could be doing anything on your phone. Because we do everything on our phones.

Our phones are like, we are wired into these things. Yeah.

[00:16:53] Jordan Harbinger: My wife will go, what are you doing? Trolling? Troll. Troll, troll. 'cause I met her online. She's kidding. Yeah, obviously it was, it's like a funny inside joke. Yeah. Because I met her on Twitter, which I don't use, and she's like, oh yeah, you can meet women on there's, it's true.

That's where I met my wife. Yeah, yeah. So it's

[00:17:09] James Sexton: like, well listen, it is the place where everybody gets involved in nonsense. Yeah. I have to tell you, I see that as a divorce lawyer. I have a ringside seat. I see the amount of communications and infidelities and betrayals that start with, Hey, wow, it looks like you guys had a great time on that vacation.

Where? Where did you stay? Oh, you know, gosh. Oh wow. You know, throwback picture, I had that T-shirt too, you know, or Oh my God, I went to that concert, or you know, and it's like an entry point man. And you just start chatting and you know this, we're human. I get it. But you're inviting. Yeah. You know, avoid the near occasion of those things.

Like when I want to lose a couple of pounds, I don't have any junk food in my house. Right. Because I can control my food environment way better than I can control my brain. Mm. Like my brain is constantly trying to screw with me. Yeah. This is like some James Clear thing, right?

[00:18:02] Jordan Harbinger: Like you a hundred percent you wanna watch less tv?

Yeah. Get rid of the DMV or tv. Put it someplace

[00:18:06] James Sexton: inconvenience, right? Yeah. Because I don't trust my brain tired gym. Sexton at the end of a long day is gonna like, want to eat and drink and like just relax and feel bad for himself and do whatever. Right. Right. Like, and I deserve it, you know? And like get ice cream sandwiches, dopamine hit.

That you get on social media. Yeah. You know, especially like I, I have something of a following now. So anytime I ever go on social media, you get, you know, you're so brilliant. You're so ama. I was, I was on the street the other day and I was meeting some colleagues of mine for lunch and I was standing outside of a restaurant and I'm talking on the phone and a guy just walks past me and he kind of sees me and then he turns back around and I'm on the phone and he just walks up and he goes, I just wanna tell you that you're awesome.

And I thought to myself, no wonder my celebrity clients are such idiots. Mm-Hmm. Like, because they just, random people just coming up to you, you saying you're awesome. What is that not gonna do to your ego? Like how there's no scenario where

[00:19:03] Jordan Harbinger: that doesn't feel good. Well, even if the repeated look, that happens quite a bit to anybody with online sort of presence, right?

Sure. Even if it doesn't inflate your ego, the opportunity be you went from. Random guy on the internet to Oh, person with status and status is like a drug, even if it's not your status.

[00:19:22] James Sexton: And you find yourself looking for that hit. Yeah. Like now that I get stopped on the street and recognized anywhere I go.

mm-Hmm. I find myself sometimes when I'm feeling low looking for it. Like, I'll deliberately go out and sort of be, you know, wearing what I'm wearing right now, which is what I'm wearing most videos. Lemme roll my sleeves up one little bit more for real. So people know me because people recognize me much more readily.

Sure. And you really do. And look, I it's human. Like I get it that there's this part of you that feels sad or insecure or low or whatever and it's a hit to have someone compliment you. And listen, anytime somebody stops me and says, oh, I'm a fan of your work. Like, it's wonderful. Like, that makes me so why, why else do I do it?

I do it. It doesn't happen to a lot of divorce lawyers. Doesn't need a lot of fan mail. Have any divorce SL I'm aware of. No. And it's a lovely, beautiful thing. I have to tell

[00:20:06] Jordan Harbinger: you. I used to say, no lawyer gets fan mail. Now I gotta change my, I got a lot of fan mail now. You get, get a lot of fan

[00:20:10] James Sexton: mail. I got a lot of fan, I got a lot of women in my dms and I, I get a lot of fan mail, but I think if you're a man with even vaguely and emotional vocabulary and maybe a full head of hair, that, that kind, but maybe you don't even need a full head of hair.

You don't. Scott Galloway probably gets a ton of, uh, ton of really good. Oh, I'm so curious. I'm gonna ask him. He's gotta get big time. Yeah. I'm such a fan of him. He's great. Do you see his TED Talk? He did. I did. Personally. I really good. I did talk about. I was always a fan of his work. I listened to Pivot forever until I just got to the point with Kara Swisher that I was like, all right, I just can't do it anymore.

[00:20:39] Jordan Harbinger: That's, uh, that's funny. I hear that all the time. But I love Scott

[00:20:41] James Sexton: Galloway, everything the guy does, and I'm an N NYU U alum, although I didn't go to the business school, so I didn't get to study with him. That was probably before his time. I think

[00:20:47] Jordan Harbinger: I was gonna say, he's not that old. I, no, he's not. He would've been like 27.

Although,

[00:20:50] James Sexton: you know, he's jacked though. My goodness. I mean, like, he's just, it's so easy to hate the guy because he is just awesome. But yeah, I mean, his viewpoint is so incredible and he really gets it right on a lot of these things, and I really do think that he must get inundated with attention, you know?

And you do get a tremendous amount of attention. The interesting thing is, is when you're in the relationship space, like I am. People think you have some secret knowledge and I don't, I really don't like I, I've said it before, you know, I don't know what intelligence looks like, but I can spot stupid a mile away, right?

Like, I don't know necessarily what makes a relationship a happy relationship. I just have become an expert in what screws up relationships, and I'm hoping I can help people reverse engineer that into something better.

[00:21:35] Jordan Harbinger: This is your reminder to get that prenup and to support the fine products and services that support this show.

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Now back to James Sexton. How many people come into your office and are essentially learning about what the marriage contract entails for the very first time? 95%. Oh my God. That high? Yeah,

[00:24:45] James Sexton: 95%. Well ask any, listen, go to anybody who's married. Yes. Go to anybody who's married and ask them about the spouse's elective share.

Ask 'em if they know what that is. Okay. Ask them how child support is determined in the county in which they reside, or the state in which they reside. Ask them how spousal support. Is done overwhelming. Majority of people have absolutely no idea. That's what I mean is that people learn. Like if you genuinely wanted to improve the state of marriage or people's relationship to it, you would probably create some barriers to entry.

Mm-Hmm. Like to learn how to drive, you've gotta take a written test that you know how the rules of the road work. Yeah. Then you have to get a learner's permit. Then you have a period of time that's un waveable that you have to learn how to drive. Then you have to take an exam that shows you know how to do this thing.

And then you're allowed to get a driver's license marriage. Yeah. You can meet a stripper in Vegas. Yeah. And Elvis will marry you for 50 bucks, 20 minutes

[00:25:39] Jordan Harbinger: later. I was the best man at an Elvis wedding. And I have to say they're divorced now, surprisingly. Um, so you see the shock on my face. Yeah. It's uh. It wasn't even a spur of the moment decision, but still an Elvis' wedding anyway.

Well, I digress. The

[00:25:51] James Sexton: reality is that I think most people who get married never educate themselves. I think in a perfect world, every person as part of getting a marriage license would have to spend an hour with a divorce lawyer,

[00:26:06] Jordan Harbinger: make 'em take like a, when's the last time you renewed your driver's license?

That test was harder. I remember whole thing. Yeah, he changed states. Yeah. Yeah. It's the thing, my dad was like, I don't think I can pass this test. 'cause he took the online version and I was like, Hey, that might be an indication. Oh yeah. That you should no longer be driving. So I

[00:26:22] James Sexton: part time, when I first got outta graduate school, when I got my master's degree at NYU, before I went to law school, I was teaching at NYU and I was teaching at a couple other colleges, part-time, just to make ends meet.

I got $400 a credit. So that's how Wow. Abysmally, abysmally bad that market was, but it was a lot of money to me at the time. I'd been a waiter. And one of the things that I used to do with my students, you would never be able to do this now, would be considered like a hate crime. But I used to, because I taught courses in like culture and communication, I.

And I used to make my students take the citizenship exam for the United States. For the United States. Oh, that's a great idea. They were all US citizens by birth, you know, hard. The majority, the majority of my students were, they were born in the United States. They were naturalized citizens. They never had to take citizenship exam.

The answers that I would get from students of like, what are the three branches of the government? And they would be like, Democrat, Republican, conservative.

[00:27:15] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that's pretty bad. Like,

[00:27:16] James Sexton: I mean, you would look at it and just go, okay, but it's true. Like we, we have taken for granted what we're supposed to know, what it's assumed we know.

Like it's assumed that the drivers test that you took, yeah. Whatever many years ago that you remember at a four-way stop what the order of who gets to go is. Right. I don't think that's true. It's not based on what I've seen in terms of driving, I. I don't think most people remember this stuff. Similarly, I don't think most people remember basic civics, and I don't think most people remember anything they learned in driver's ed or anything they learned in basic civics.

Yeah, like I think if you gave most people the citizenship exam, they would fail. We don't deport people for failing the citizenship exam if you're already a citizen. Right. But I, I have to tell you. Your vote equals mine. And if you don't know the three branches of the United States

[00:28:08] Jordan Harbinger: government, why do you get to vote?

Oh, it's funny you bring this up, man. There's a, I won't say them out loud, but there's always this get everyone, get the vote out. And I always pass on the campaign and my sales team is like, why are you passing on this easy money? Right. And the reason is because I don't think everybody should just go vote.

Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I would rather that if you have no idea, and if you're one of those people who's like, oh, I like this guy's last name, it's really easy to remember. Yeah. If you, if that's how you vote, I beg you not to vote.

[00:28:34] James Sexton: An educated citizenry is the cornerstone of democracy. And the problem is, for all of time, for all of time, people were like, I would vote for him.

He seems like the kind of person he'd like to have a beer with. Mm-Hmm. And people have been saying that since Alexander Hamilton's days. Sure. I mean, this is like a thing, is that Oh yeah. He seems like a good dude, you know? Mm-Hmm. And, and there's something to that, like there's something to charisma. You know, like, I won't say that, that his charm had nothing to do with me voting for Obama.

Like, he was incredibly charming. He was great. He seemed like a dude you'd wanna hang out with. And he seems like a guy if you hung out with him. Yeah. It'd be fun to hang out with. Sure. You know, and he and Michelle, like they, there's a vibe there. Like the two of them look like, like they're still at it.

Mm-Hmm. You know, like that's, and I gotta tell you, I love when I see married people, they've been married for a while and they still look like if you walk 'em past a broom closet, they might just jump in there and have sex. I love, I'm like, you know what? Sign up. Sign up for that. Sign up for that coupling.

That's awesome. This is why you have those YouTube comments, stuff like this. It might be stuff like that. This is, this is brings out a lot of, I get the feelings in people. Yeah. I know people. It brings out a lot of the people

[00:29:38] Jordan Harbinger: who didn't turn it off because they're like, he voted for Obama. I thought he was smart until then.

Slammed the door. Shut. Guess I guess. Lot slammed the laptop. Yeah. I said

[00:29:44] James Sexton: something about Trump the other day about a prenup that one of his marriages had been challenged. The prenup, uh, he had with uh, Ivanka. I remember somebody wrote this thing about it. He was doing well until he started slagging Donald Trump.

And I was like, guys, I'm not political. Like, this was not, I wasn't making fun of him. I was making fun of, you know, I was talking about his prenup. Mm-Hmm. And I was talking about, you know, how he, like any man did not see this blind spot in a prenup. And yeah, it's very charged times. People are just, wait, it's, the joy of the internet is people are just dying to pill you for something you said.

I mean, it's almost like a sport. Doing what I do for a living though. I'm, I don't really let the praise in. Yeah. And I don't really let the criticism, that's thing, it doesn't mean anything. I just keep doing my thing. Like doing what I do for a living, one side of the equation usually hates me. That makes, so there's a lot of people out there that just hate me and I'm really comfortable with that.

Like,

[00:30:34] Jordan Harbinger: it's fine. Being polarizing is not something I do as a strategy, but it's something that's a natural result of, well, my personality. Yeah. And the fact that I have a public, a microphone in front of me at any given time. Yeah. But it, it's interesting about not letting the praise in and not letting you almost, it would be amazing if you could only let the praise in, but then the criticism you could keep at bay, unless it was constructive,

[00:30:54] James Sexton: it would be dangerous, I think.

But it's very hard

[00:30:55] Jordan Harbinger: to do and it's, you're right, it's not safe. Yeah. I think it'd be dangerous to do. It's not a good idea

[00:30:58] James Sexton: because I think that you, you'd get high on your own supply. Like I think you would just very quickly spiral into a hubris whenever anybody says something, you know, like, oh, you're good at this, or you're great at this.

I always go, yeah, opinions vary. Like, and it's true. Opinions vary. Like I, I don't know that I'm right. I never thought the things I have to say would reach the audience that they've reached. Sure. You know, when I think of the fact that at this point tens of millions of people Mm-Hmm. Have spent several hours listening to me, that's shocking to me.

Still. And they want more, well, some of them anyway, it's still, yeah. A lot of them still want more. And that's very, very interesting to me. I feel very grateful for it. I feel very blessed to have had the opportunity to do it, but I never really did it for the, you know, not to over quote Rick and Morty, but there's a scene where, where Rick says, your booze mean nothing to me.

I've seen what you cheer for.

[00:31:46] Clip: Mm.

[00:31:46] James Sexton: And I sort of feel like that's the reality. Like if you wanna conduct the orchestra, you gotta turn your back to the audience. And so I don't really say anything I say for the clicks, for the likes to have. People are like, you should have a podcast, you should have a show.

You should have this, you should have that. And it's never been for that purpose. I have a very specific set of things I'm qualified to talk about. Mm-Hmm. I get sometimes from people saying, oh, you repeated this perspective on this podcast and this podcast, podcast, you got soundbites. That's

[00:32:13] Jordan Harbinger: okay.

[00:32:14] James Sexton: Yeah.

Well, the truth is, is I'm not. A standup comic who has like a set, and then I'm gonna burn that set right. And I'm gonna write a whole new set. I'm a lawyer, I'm a divorce lawyer. I try to give the most accurate and efficient answer in the most interesting, entertaining, or digestible manner. Mm-hmm. Ideally all three.

So yeah, once I get it right, I'm not gonna just change it. Right. So I have new material for the public and you shouldn't, and that's why I've, I've really cut back a lot, even on, on how much I do appearance wise because I, I feel like I've said a lot of the things I needed to say or wanted to say. I've reached a very broad audience.

I'm working on a new book now that. Gets into different terrain, which I think will be an interesting thing to have conversations about. Sure. But until then, you know, I, I certainly am always very excited. Like this interview I was excited for because I know your work and you tend to dive a little deeper as you already have in this conversation than just the surface level.

If I do one more. So a divorce lawyer writing books about relationships. How did that come about? Right? Like why don't you listen to one of 50 podcasts? I've been on that question. What are the top three tips of how to the, dude, if I get one more top three? Yeah. Anything everyone's, everybody wants life to be a buzzfeed.

Like what are three things people can do to divorce proof their man? I'm like, yo know, I wrote a whole book on this man. Which I didn't read for in preparation for this because Okay. But you know what, 10, I love the honesty of it. Love the honesty of that. If someone just said that to me. Yeah. If someone just went, yeah.

I never read your book. I never watched any other, your interviews. My intern wrote

[00:33:40] Jordan Harbinger: these questions and I'm gonna ask all of them in the same way. You know why? And even that there's an honesty

[00:33:43] James Sexton: to it. Yeah. Like I just don't, like the most dangerous thing a person can do is believe their own bullshit. Oh yeah.

Yeah. And so to me, like yeah, you, you give a lazy interview, I'm gonna give you lazy answers. And they're not necessarily even lazy. I'm just gonna answer the way I always answer. Yeah. You know how many times I have to tell people the same things in 25 years as a divorce lawyer, do you know how many times I have to explain alimony?

How many times I've had to explain child support, how many times I've had to explain every aspect of divorce. Yeah. And I want to do it. Sure. And my clients deserve that. I do it in a way that's interested and interesting. Mm-Hmm. And engaged and like, 'cause they pay for that. I was gonna say at least you can bill in six minute income.

Yeah. I don't sit there and go. Child support is based on a presumptive, statutory cap of your gross income. Less fica, which is 0.0765 from whatever the gross income is. And child support for one child is 17%, two children's 25%. If your lawyer talked to you that way, like I've actually thought about like, okay, why don't I do this speech and then just like put them in a room and be like, here, watch this video and then I'll be back.

When a job training when your teacher had a hangover back in the day. Yeah, exactly. Right. But, but look, you're paying me 750 bucks an hour, you're gonna get the steak and the sizzle. Yeah. So I'm gonna do the thing so I can give the same opinion or the same speech and make it compelling and make it interesting.

You know, that's part of the job of being a

[00:34:59] Jordan Harbinger: trial lawyer. God, roll up those sleeves and shut the door. That's what you do. That's right. What are some trends that you see, and speaking of crappy questions, this will start as a crappy question, but it'll be a real one. What are some trends that you see in marriage because.

It looks like we're actually from the outside in. Yeah. Getting kind of more conservative than marriage has been in the past or than, than social mores have been in the past, but it could be an illusion based on my age. I don't know.

[00:35:23] James Sexton: Yeah, there's a lot of interesting stuff in the last couple of years.

People are getting married older than they used to. Well, that's, yeah, for sure. That's a fact. These are numbers. People are, uh, getting married later. They're having children later. People are definitely exponentially getting prenups way more than they used to. Interesting. Okay. There is no way to track this.

Oh, well, yeah, because prenups are not filed anywhere private. They're a private document, and I, as someone who's represented a number of celebrities and sports figures, I can tell you I have seen interviews with my client who I've done a prenup for, where they are saying, oh yeah, we, we we're not having a prenup.

I'm watching them. They just lie about that. That's interesting. I have their prenup in my safe signed, you know? Wow. Well, 'cause it's not recorded anywhere. It's not romantic. So they know you get away. Right. And by the way, and and interviewers have no right really to ask people if they have a prenup or not agree with, I guess you're a public figure.

People can ask whatever question you want, but you have the right to lie to people if they ask you an inappropriate question. I guess that's true. That's true. But I think it sets the wrong example, which is we put up on Instagram, us picking the cake and us picking the venue and us picking what wine we're gonna serve and us picking the dress and the shoes and everything else.

People don't advertise the fact they had a prenup. But for whatever reason, I have to say in the last five years, I would say. Three x four x in terms of prenups. Part of it is that I've come to be known as someone who does prenups. So I, I do a lot of talking about prenups. So I have a lot of people now that say I probably do three consults a week for prenups, and I get retained by most of the people who consult with me about a prenup.

So I do a lot of prenups, but, but among my colleagues, like I'm part of all the professional organizations, New York State Bar Association, all the different family law divisions and family law committees, and we all are saying the same thing, which is, yeah, like young, the people in their twenties and thirties, which is the prime marriage ages, they're getting prenups, they're approaching things much more pragmatically.

I see it in my own sons. There's a, there's a pragmatism and a realism, and there's also a, a radical kind of candor where, you know, people are talking more openly about gender issues, sexual orientation therapy, and mental health stuff. We're talking more candidly and honestly about the things we struggle with, and I think that's translating into a broader.

Openness about the technology of marriage and the concerns that younger people are having about it. And so I, I think that's kind of good. I think that's a really good thing. I think that the more people are talking about prenups normalizing, like it took a while to normalize therapy. Okay, we should be normalizing prenups.

Like there's nothing wrong with normalizing prenups. And again, the best way to do it, as far as I can tell, is to just point out to everybody that either the government government writes your prenup or you write your prenup.

[00:38:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a really good way to look at it because most people would then, at that point, I would think, not allow the government default to come into play.

It's like having a will. Well,

[00:38:16] James Sexton: when I was on Matt Walsh's show on The Daily Wire, Matt and I disagree on a lot of things, you know, from a political place. And we met by getting in like a little tussle with each other on Twitter, which I'm no longer on, but which at the time I was still on, it was before I realized what a just unbelievable cesspool, successful anger It is.

But the truth is I think Matt's very entertaining. I think he's very intelligent. We have different perspectives on a lot of things, but it's rooted in us having some fundamental different beliefs. But we had to sit down at his studio in Tennessee, which by the way, I have to say, his staff and everyone in that operation Daily Wire was the nicest, most courteous professional people I think I've ever dealt with.

They were a pleasure and he was an absolute pleasure to talk to. And even though we disagree on a bunch of things, our dialogue about marriage, which he is a huge fan of. I mean, he is married, he is got six kids. He, he's very much of the like, yeah, we got married, we don't have a prenup. We're, but we had so much commonality Sure.

In our perspectives, because we're both skeptical of the government. We're both skeptical of government control and we're both pessimistic about government's ability to manage our affairs better than the individual. Yeah. So we had a lot of common ground from this sort of libertarian vibe that we both had.

Even though I'm more of a progressive liberal, he's a staunch religious conservative, but we have this commonality of like, listen, I don't know the solution, or we might differ on the solution, but we both agree whatever the solution is, the government ain't gonna be the one to solve it. Mm. So we should go in with this pragmatic approach.

I think this is something that on both sides of the aisle, people are saying, okay, yeah, there's something wrong with the way we do marriage, and there's something wrong with just jumping without a parachute.

[00:40:01] Jordan Harbinger: I think a lot of people, when I was doing a criminal defense just in law school clinic stuff, people would say.

How do you protect somebody that you know is guilty?

[00:40:11] Clip: Mm.

[00:40:11] Jordan Harbinger: And I'm sure you get some flavor for that. Like I get a lot of that. Yeah. How do you,

[00:40:16] James Sexton: how do you represent a perpetrator of domestic violence? Yeah. There,

[00:40:19] Jordan Harbinger: that's an interesting take. I, 'cause I

[00:40:20] James Sexton: represent so many victims of intimate partner abuse, coercive control, and domestic violence.

How do you represent a perpetrator of domestic violence, intimate partner abuse course of control?

[00:40:29] Jordan Harbinger: Or you know, how do you just eviscerate somebody on cross-examination? Yeah. And you're like, this is probably a nice person. Can answer person. I

[00:40:34] James Sexton: can answer. Yeah. I can answer. Oh no, that happens all the time.

Yeah. I mean, part of it is that I grew up a fighter and I still train martial arts to this day. So some of my best friends have punched me in the face, choked me, and tried to break my limbs. And I've tried to do the same thing to them. So I, I grew up in the fight sport. I don't have to hate you or be angry at you.

In fact, some of my best friends, we, we try to kill each other all day. Mm-Hmm. That's the mindset I came from. But the way I've always answered that question, and, and it's truthful answer, is it's not always easy, but I represent the client and I represent the system, and I don't always believe in the client.

Mm-Hmm. I don't always feel great about the client, but I believe in the system. Like I believe that my role in the machinery of our system is an important one. I believe in democracy. I believe in our legal system. I don't think it's perfect. It has flaws, but you know, it's like the economy. Mm-Hmm. Like it's, we have the worst one except for all the other ones, right?

Like I think, I think we do a pretty good job of due process. I really like that we error on the side of letting a guilty person go free rather than an innocent person go to jail. So I like our burdens of proof. I like due process. I like the right to confrontation. So if you believe in the system, you have to be willing to do your part in the system.

Mm-Hmm. And I can do that. I'm, I'm very comfortable. I have people that I like very much that my job is to take them apart piece by piece in a divorce and I will do it. Without hesitation, dispassionately with no malice. In my heart. It's my job.

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Now for the rest of my conversation with James Sexton, it's gotta be tough when you're getting an emotional reaction from 'cause like if, look, if you go up against me and I'm a fellow divorce lawyer, this is just us playing chess. Yeah, we could have lunch right afterwards. Yeah. It doesn't really matter as long as we're not talking about the case, or even if we are, I suppose.

But if there's a woman up there. Or a guy and he is crying because his wife is, he knows his wife is planning to abscond with their children. Mm-Hmm. And you're just dismantling this dude.

[00:45:26] James Sexton: Mm-Hmm. There's

[00:45:26] Jordan Harbinger: gotta be a little bit of, it's personal for them. It's not personal for you. Right. How do you compartmentalize that?

Or do you

[00:45:32] James Sexton: I've never had an issue with it because again, I believe in this system. I understand my role in it. I believe that our emotion clouds are our judgment and our ability to do what is necessary. I mean, I, you're like a surgeon. There's a, there's a line from the first season of True Detective where he says, um, do you ever worry that you're a bad man?

And he says, the world needs bad men. We keep the other bad men from the door. And that's how I view it. I view it like, you know, yeah, I'm a weapon and that's what I chose to do and that's what I'm really good at. I don't know why that is. I don't know why I was built that way, but that's how I'm built. I think I might be built different than a lot of people, but I can do that.

I can dispassionately dismantle in that way. I think the world needs that. There's a line from Reese Ssus. I always really liked, to the point where I memorized it, he said, I have resigned myself to temporary complicity with evil in order to accomplish certain strategic objectives for people whose suffering is greater than my need to maintain moral purity.

[00:46:34] Jordan Harbinger: That's quite a feat of memory and that's how I view it. Yeah,

[00:46:36] James Sexton: I think that my need to maintain moral purity is subservient to the ability I have to relieve suffering. I have. More clients that are victims of domestic violence than perpetrators. Thankfully, I have more clients that need someone like me.

Most often, a good hearted nice person finds themself up against someone who's their opposite. So their opposite is a narcissistic abuser. Mm-Hmm. And you need someone who can dispassionately go in and take that person on. Mm-Hmm. You know, Cormick McCarthy said there are two things that'll make a man confess.

His sins God and pain. And not everyone believes in God that everyone believes in pain. So sometimes my job is to inflict pain, emotional pain, financial pain, create and cultivate leverage, and then use it. That's my job. Mm-Hmm. And my job most often, thankfully, is to do that for someone who there is some moral ground behind it.

But have I, in my career had occasion where I've, I've been weaponized against what probably was a really good person. Yes. Is that hard to do? It's not hard to do. Is it hard emotionally to process it? Yeah, it is. But you know, the truth has a way of coming out sometimes, despite my best efforts, like I lose sometimes.

Sure. I lose. 'cause our system, our system gets the truth out there. Like people have to answer for things. I like the court system. I don't like the fact that people in the world right now, we live in a post-truth era and everybody gets up and can say whatever they want about, oh, this is what this does and this is what that does.

And there's no way to fact check anything and every, nothing's tethered to objective reality. So I like court. Because you gotta shut up. Everybody's gotta shut up and answer. You have to answer. I like the right to confrontation. I love cross-examination. 'cause my attitude is No, no, you said it. You said it.

I always keep my children's best interests at heart. Okay. I'm gonna show you 15 examples of places you didn't do that and you're gonna have to answer for it. And to me, I like that. Yeah. I think that's fair. I think I wanna live in a world Yeah. Where that's

[00:48:46] Jordan Harbinger: how things are done. I love that. I'm wondering if you ever won a case you just thought, I shouldn't have won that.

[00:48:51] James Sexton: Yeah. Yeah. There's a chapter in the book actually about that. I talk about representing a, a. He was actually a pimp. That's what he did for a living. He was a pimp. He was a perpetrator of domestic violence. And I won because my adversary in court was a very inexperienced lawyer. And the, it was a perfect storm and the judge was in a very bad mood.

Oof. And the judge, this lawyer, who was a brand new lawyer at the time, who has, since actually I've, I've followed their career and had cases with them, was since become one of the best lawyers I know, but was a real ne fight, might've even been their first trial. And they couldn't get a, a photograph into evidence.

They, they couldn't lay the proper foundation. And, uh, the judge who should have stepped in and been helpful was just in a mood and was not letting the photograph. It was just like, yep, you can't lay the foundation. I'm not letting it in. And I was doing my job. I was objecting and doing things I, I was supposed to do.

And I remember just being in there going, this is not good. This is not right. The wrong thing's gonna happen. And we walked outta court, we won. And the guy. Smacked me on the back and he said, I'll never forget it. He said, one good lawyer's better than 20 stickup men. Ugh. Yeah. And I remember I went home that night and I just felt very bad.

That's a long hot shower. Here's what I'll tell you, and, and I, I've said this before, I'm not giving anything away. When I recorded the audio book, my publisher Henry Holt McMillan, they said, well, we want you to read your own audio book. So it's like eight and a half hours of my voice. They put you in a booth and you have to read your entire book out loud and you do it in pieces.

And when I got to that chapter, I had to stop a couple of times because I got choked up. I talk about in the chapter, it was like, no, like I'm s some. You're supposed to stop me. Like you're supposed to stop me. Like what are you, what are you doing? Like I'm winning. I shouldn't be winning. Like the truth is not gonna come out here.

Yeah. And that was very hard for me 'cause I believe in the system and it's supposed to work and sometimes it doesn't because of humans that are in it. And so that was hard. But I did my job. I know I did the right thing. 'cause I believe in the system. And I think if I threw the game, then it starts to ask questions of, well when do you throw the game and when do you have the right to throw the game?

That's right. And I don't think that's the way to do it.

[00:50:57] Jordan Harbinger: Well everybody, what do they tell us in law school? Everybody deserves a zealous, zealous Advocacy. Advocacy. Yeah. Everyone has

[00:51:03] James Sexton: the right to zealous advocacy. Yes. But then the bounds of law.

[00:51:06] Jordan Harbinger: What if you know that there's smoking gun? I keep going back to iMessage.

What if you know that like, alright. They got photos of you with, with her, with the params. There's 8,000 texts and photos in that thread of you guys on vacate planning to go away. Like Mm-Hmm. Do you have to go full m and m strategy where you're like eight mile strategy? Eight mile strategy. Right. We call it the eight mile you call it.

Okay. Yeah. We call it

[00:51:26] James Sexton: the eight mile strategy. Yeah. You do the eight mile strategy. I mean, that's our, our favorite thing is the eight mile strategy. You bring it out. You bring it out as part of your narrative first. So I tell 'em all the things that the guy's about to say about me, and then I hand the mic to the other side.

Mm-Hmm. You know, so I do that last rap battle of eight mile. Where, yeah. You just lay out all the worst things about your case and you just own them. You present the counter narrative to them before the other side can do it. And you watch the opposing counsel crossing out pages and pages.

[00:51:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. I was just gonna say, isn't that a good feeling when you see a opposing counsel go?

[00:51:55] James Sexton: Yeah.

[00:51:55] Jordan Harbinger: Si. They sigh and they

[00:51:57] James Sexton: just,

[00:51:57] Jordan Harbinger: they and you just, you're watching 'em just cross out. Yeah. Pages of cross-examination. They flip the legal pad over,

[00:52:03] James Sexton: ruin over again and again. It really is. They, I'm telling you, it's the last, last scene in Eight Mile, because I remember the first time I saw that movie, I saw it in the theaters, and I remember watching that rap battle and being like, oh my God, how are they gonna end this thing?

Mm-Hmm. Because you know, he is gotta win, but how's he gonna win? And just the feeling of like, here, tell these people something they don't know about me. And handing them the mic and you just go. That is the most brilliant thing in the world. Mm-Hmm. And I have to tell you, like I've seen on the witness stand again and again, when a client talks about their humanity and talks about their flaws, and they admit when they lost their temper, when they said something stupid or did something stupid.

Yeah. There ain't a person in that courtroom that can cast the first stone, like everybody in that courtroom looks and goes. Yeah. Like he probably, I, I've probably done dumb things too, you know? Yeah. Just didn't get caught. Or maybe did. Yeah. Yeah. So I think there's a lot of value in taking that approach to things.

Yeah.

[00:52:53] Jordan Harbinger: You've got a great mindfulness exercise that I love and I am not Mr. Mindfulness. Yeah. I am not that guy. I just, I feel like there's a lot of hype around this stuff. Yeah. But there's a core of really good stuff in there. This one I love. Tell me about this. This is the Tek n Hanh one about hugging someone.

Uh, yes. That is it. Yeah.

[00:53:09] James Sexton: So Tek n Hanh was a, a Vietnamese Buddhist monkey passed away some years ago, but he wrote a number of really beautiful books about mindfulness and awareness and the nature of life and suffering. They're very simple books, much like Sherry Huber is another Buddhist writer, and this is actually my next book is about exactly this concept.

But essentially what Tek Nhan was encourage people to do is when you are hugging someone. Who is in your life, who you love, whether it's your spouse or your child, or your dog or cat, or your cousin or your friend. Mm-Hmm. Who you haven't seen. You should close your eyes and hug them and think about the fact that they're there and you're hugging them.

And then for a moment you should think about that they've died. You should imagine that they've died and that you're holding their body, hugging their body for the last time before you let go, and it's taken away. And then you should remember that they're there and they're alive and you're hugging them.

And if you can train yourself to do that, some people think that's a morbid exercise. I, I don't think it is. I think we are most keenly aware of the beauty of life when we're in the presence of death, when we realize that love and life are not permanently gifted, but are loaned to us. And so I'm a big proponent of that mindfulness exercise.

I'm a big proponent. Of being mindful of endings because when you are mindful of endings, you are very much aware of the impermanence of things, how everything is leading to some inevitable conclusion. All marriages end, your marriage will end, I promise. Your marriage will end. It will end in death, or it will end in divorce, but it will end.

I hope it ends in death. Yeah. Doesn't that sound weird to say out loud? Yeah. But, but I always, but I hope it does. I hope I go first. I hope, I hope it ends in No, I hope you both go simultaneously. Oh yeah, sure, sure. And in painless way. That's right. Holding hands and you know. Exactly right. But, but the truth is when we remind ourselves that all marriages end, that everything ends, we're much more conscious of the value and beauty of the thing that's in front of us.

And so. I am a big, as a divorce lawyer, I have made my day-to-day living in endings.

[00:55:23] Clip: Mm-Hmm.

[00:55:24] James Sexton: And before that, I was a hospice volunteer for many years. And so I spent a lot of time in the presence of death. And I can tell you, when you spend time in the presence of death, you walk out of a hospice visit.

Just so grateful. Just so grateful that you're alive. You're not dying, that that's not your father or mother or brother or you on that bed. You're so, you're not worried about what your stock market's doing. You're not worried about some minor, you know, somebody cut you off in traffic, like you just didn't.

The volume is turned so far down on that stuff. I think it's the same thing as a divorce lawyer. All I do is watch things end and it makes me not a pessimist. Like, it makes me not think, oh, well, it's all doomed. And it's, it makes me so grateful. That there's love and that people somehow manage to keep it together and want it so badly.

And I think that bringing into your vocabulary, a mindfulness about endings can make your life much, much better and stronger. And that's where really the focus of my work and my writing now is moving. Jim Sexton,

[00:56:33] Jordan Harbinger: thank you very much. Pleasure.

[00:56:34] James Sexton: It was great to be here, Jordan. I appreciate

[00:56:36] Jordan Harbinger: you having me.

Here's a trailer of an episode I think you might enjoy.

[00:56:41] Clip II: Do you have another one of those Coke zeroes? That looks really good. Here, take this. Is it cold?

[00:56:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it is. It's super cold. It's ice cold. And somebody will maybe get me in another one. Maybe. Can I, sorry, I don't mean to turn you into server, but Yeah.

Thank you very much everyone for bringing that to in. Isn't that nice? I never have that. You probably have that all the time. I can. So good. It's so rare that I get to be like, excuse me, Canino. How did that feel? That felt so good. It it good in a way where I'm like, God, don't get used to this Jordan. I know that you microdose weed.

You're the only other person I met besides myself that does that.

[00:57:14] Clip II: You're in charge of your mood. So when you take something like that, it's a mood lifter. It's like an enhancer. Mm-Hmm. You know, it makes, for me, it makes everything a little bit more sparkly. It makes everybody a little bit less annoying and these are all things we want to all be able to engage with.

Got a DUI when I was like 21 and I got into a lot of trouble 'cause I used my, I had my sister's ID and I forgot to change it out when I turned 21 'cause I'd been using it for so many years. So that. Caused a whole ruckus of other events. 'cause my sister was really pissed at me. I had to go to DUI school and in DUI class you go for like, what, 15 weeks and everybody gets up and tells their story and I had such a fear of public speaking.

[00:57:50] Jordan Harbinger: You did?

[00:57:50] Clip II: I did, yes. Wow. Anyway, they forced you to do it in that class. And when I did it, I started telling my story and all I did was tell what happened. And it was ridiculous. Like everything I do was always just in a very immature, you know, I called the cop racist. We were both white. I mean, everything that, you know, that didn't make sense.

I did, the class was just like laughing and I was on stage for like 14, 15 minutes until the guy was like, no, this is not standup. Get off the stage. Like you got your, uh, you're enjoying this a little bit too much. And that's when I was like, wait a second. I like this.

[00:58:26] Jordan Harbinger: For more with the incomparable Chelsea Handler.

Check out episode two 16 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. Whew, what an episode. Like I said, at the top of part one, this episode really made me realize how much I love my wife and how fortunate I am. I guess I shouldn't let my guard down though, from the sound of it. Some of the stories off camera we're honestly worthy of another episode entirely.

We have to have James back at some point. There's just a whole lot here, and I got through like half my notes. This guy is a fountain. All things James Sexton will be in the show notes@jordanharbinger.com, advertisers deals and discount codes, ways to support the show, all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

Please consider supporting those who support this show. Also, our newsletter, wee bit wiser. The idea behind this is to give you something specific, practical, something that's gonna have an immediate impact on your decisions, your relationships, your psychology, in under two minutes a week, every Wednesday.

So if you're not signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. It is a great companion to the show. Jordan harbinger.com/news is where you can find it. Don't forget about six minute Networking as well. That's over@sixminutenetworking.com. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn and this show is created, an association with Podcast one.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show as you share it with friends, when you find something useful or interesting, the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about.

So if you know somebody who's thinking about getting married, thinking about getting divorced, wants a little bit of insight into this type of thing, I would definitely share this episode with 'em or somebody who just loves a good conversation. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

[01:00:05] Clip III: Hi, cold Case Files fans, we have some exciting news for you. Brand new episodes of Cold Case files are dropping in your feed. And I'm your new host, Paula Barros. I'm a cold Case Files super fan true crime aficionado, and I love telling stories with unbelievable twists and turns. And this season of cold case vials has all of that and more.

I want to die.

[01:00:27] Clip II: I don't want to die. I want to die.

[01:00:29] Clip III: Her cause

[01:00:30] Clip II: of death was strangulation

[01:00:32] Clip: lying face down on the bed. She was in a pretty advanced state of decomposition.

[01:00:36] Clip II: A little bit of bloody froth had come from Deborah's mouth. He panicked and decided he was getting rid of the body.

[01:00:41] Clip III: I saw danger in everything.

So get ready. You don't wanna miss what this season has in store. New episodes of Cold Case files drop every Tuesday. Subscribe to cold case files wherever you listen to podcasts.