1035: James Sexton | A Divorce Lawyer’s Guide to Lasting Love Part One

1035: James Sexton | A Divorce Lawyer's Guide to Lasting Love Part One

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Special thanks to Heineken zero zero for sponsoring this episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show. Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show...

[00:00:04] James Sexton: People's relationships fail, whether it married or not. We fall in love really fast, and it's instantaneous, almost, and chemical and pheromonal and all that stuff.

But we fall out of love. Like we go bankrupt or like we gain weight very slowly and then all at once, it's this quick rush, you know? And, and look, I mean, you know, falling feels like flying for a little while, you know, until you hit the ground.

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Just visit Jordan harbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app. To get started today on the show, divorce lawyer James Sexton explains why marriage is the most legally significant thing we can ever do other than dying. There's a lot in this episode from relationship advice, divorce advice, big mistakes people make when married and when getting divorced.

How to pick a partner, why being hot is actually an investment for many of us. Why he doesn't believe in marriage as a divorce lawyer, but still believes in love and a whole lot more. We went for a really long time. The studio basically had to kick us out. So this one is a two-parter. I know you're really going to enjoy it even if this topic might seem a little odd for the show.

At first, I would, I sort of bulked too until I started to dive in. So. You'll have the same reaction. This episode made me realize just how much I love my wife and, and like I said, I think you're gonna have a similar reaction here. Here we go with James Sexton.

Tell me about the idea that you divorced the person you married, because that's, it's obvious and yet its like, oh, wait a minute.

[00:02:17] James Sexton: I mean, a lot of people say you don't divorce the person you married. Right? So that that was kind of what that's born of. Okay. Because I've had a lot of people say to me. You know, like the, when the ring comes on, the mask comes off, you know?

Yeah. And when you marry somebody, you get to see their true face. But when you divorce them, you really see their true face. And I think to some degree there, there's a little bit of truth to that in, I think Wienstein said to know a thing, know its limits. Mm-Hmm. When you push it past its tolerances, its true.

Nature emerges. So I think you do see a very different side of someone when you put them into conflict with you. Right. Like, you know. Where loyalties lie when something's put under stress. Sure. I mean, in times of abundance, you know, everybody's very like, yeah, whatever, gregarious. Whereas when there's times of scarcity, all of a sudden it's like, well wait a minute, you know, this half's mine, or this piece is mine.

So divorce brings out something very primal, I think, in people, some people, but the idea that like, you know, I can't believe that this person is being, you know, so petty. Mm-hmm. Or I can't believe this person's so antagonistic, or so narcissistic, or so focused on themselves rather than the children. And then you talk to the client and you get, as a divorce lawyer, the history of the marriage in real detail because that's like the clay from which I build my narrative.

Yeah. You know, when I'm representing somebody in court and you just see along the lines like, well, how did you not know? Like this person is the same person you were married to. Right. Like I have a client right now who. I got in, I don't wanna say an argument with my own client, but at the negotiating table and in the courtroom, I'm gonna say whatever has to be said to advocate for my client's point of view.

But behind closed doors, I'm very blunt and candid with my clients. Sure. So I really try to say to them, you know, look, I'd rather you pay her than pay me. Mm-Hmm. I'd rather that you, you know, get this resolved. And I'll talk to 'em about what battles are worth fighting and which ones aren't worth fighting because sometimes they don't see that clearly.

Like there was a time in my career where whatever a person wanted to fight for, I would fight for it. Sure. And then they'd call me like two years after their divorce and say, you know, why did we spend $5,000 arguing over this $3,000 thing? And I'd go, well, 'cause you wanted to, and I told you you were gonna do that.

And you said, I don't care. Let's do it. And they're like, yeah, but you were thinking clearly I wasn't. Yeah. And I, you know, I got a job. Yeah. But when you see people in that frame of mind, right, you find yourself being put in the position as, as I was just recently. Where you say to someone like, okay, but why do you think like there are some problems that don't have a judicial solution, right?

Like, you married an awful person and then you proceeded to have two children with that awful person. Like this was your solution. Mm-hmm. To the problem like, oh, I married this person and right away it was obvious they had substance use disorder or mental health issues, or narcissistic, you know, tendencies or.

Whatever myriad of transgressions, you know, they were involved in. And then when you went, you know what I, I'll do that's gonna fix this, not I'm gonna get divorced. Not we're gonna go to counseling, not I'm gonna say to this person, if you don't go to therapy, I'm not gonna work with you. I'm not gonna stay with you in a relationship.

Your solution was, let's have a couple of kids. Yeah. Which to me. I don't know that there's a solution to that problem. I can create some bumpers. I can get a judge to issue some orders that are gonna, you know, keep this person in line and hopefully everybody drives a little slower when the cops are behind them.

So now that they know there's a judge watching what they do, maybe they'll put on their best face. But I don't think marrying someone changes the fundamental tenets of who they are. Nah. And I don't think divorcing someone. Yeah, you see the, the organism under stress. But they're not gonna be a fundamentally different, like if they were a fair-minded person during the marriage, if they were someone prone to compromise, or someone who would concede the possibility of their own error pretty

[00:05:48] Jordan Harbinger: readily,

[00:05:49] James Sexton: they're probably still gonna be that.

[00:05:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. The idea that somebody transforms into this monster, you never saw it coming. It's, it's Well,

[00:05:56] James Sexton: and that's, I look, I understand that creature in our imaginations. You know, like I, I know as a human being, I do that all the time, especially in relationships like you always imagine, like, because I think there's so much.

Vulnerability in being in a romantic relationship. Sure. Like you're really showing this person your soft spots and you're, you can't help. I mean, I know I can't help but think like, oh, if they ever weaponized that, like I'm sharing with this person such an, you know, intimacy people equate intimacy with sexuality, but intimacy is defined as the ability to be completely yourself with another person.

And so for me, I know I've always found that being emotionally very open with someone and being very, like, that's the thing my mom used to do or my dad used to do, or this is like my soft spot that like if somebody hits that, like, ooh, it stings. I. And that can be so necessary to have a good relationship.

Like, to be able to say to someone like, Hey, here's my blind spot, or here's the part of me that's wounded. Like, can we, you know, maybe we can help heal. Like, 'cause we break in relationship and we heal in relationships. So I think it's really, really important and necessary in relationships to be vulnerable and to be brave in that way, you know?

And, and it has to be scary 'cause it, if it's not scary, it's not brave, you know? But when you do that, of course, how could you not in your mind, go like, oh my God, if they, you know, they've got this ammo on me, they know my soft spots Now it terrify. It's like Scientology. That's terrifying. Yeah, exactly right.

It's your end group. I don't think any of it came from a, you know, a, uh, a space alien or a volcano. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely stuff deep inside of us that I don't think we can change, you know?

[00:07:32] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's, I guess if they're nickel and dimming during the marriage, they're nickel and diming during the divorce.

If they're vindictive during the marriage, they're vindictive during the divorce.

[00:07:40] James Sexton: That's been my experience. Yeah, and what I've seen a lot of people go through ringside. Is exactly that experience. And, and again, the other way, which is like, I was a server for many years. I worked in restaurants all through college and even part of high school and graduate school.

So whenever I go to a restaurant like I wildly over tip Mm-Hmm. I'm mindful of, of the demands of that. And when I'm hiring, you know, for my firm, I, I have a lot of employees and every single one of them, I make sure that they worked in food service at some point. Really? 'cause once you listen, if you've slung, you know, prime rib for 6 99 and gone home at two in the morning, you know, like if you've hustled for an hour and a half for a table to get a $3 tip, like you're thankful for every, I'm still, I've been doing this job as a lawyer for 25 years.

I still, every day that I go home, I don't smell like prime rib and it's not two in the morning. I'm lucky, I feel you're like, I'm ahead of the game. Yeah. I'm so ahead of the game. Because that was such a challenging, physically, mentally, you know, like, and, and for people just love to beat up on their servers.

Oh yeah. You know, so I am so profoundly aware of that having done that job, that I try to be really, really sympathetic to any server who's providing service to me. But I similarly, if you have that kind of approach to people. And you're getting divorced, you're probably going to be pretty like, you know, laid back and thoughtful and, okay, well look, I, who you are in the marriage and who you are in the divorce is very often the same.

And sometimes that's great and sometimes that's awful.

[00:09:08] Jordan Harbinger: Have you ever seen anybody who was kind of crappy during the marriage but then stepped up during the divorce? Yeah, I've seen that a lot. Yeah. But

[00:09:13] James Sexton: it's usually because they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. It's not uncommon. I always tell clients when they get caught cheating or their spouse gets caught cheating, there's a window.

There's a very short window where this person feels very badly usually for what they've done, and they're like, okay, I'm gonna just throw money at this or I'm gonna throw, I. Reasonableness at this and just try to salvage what's left of being like a good guy or good woman in this person's eyes. Mm-Hmm.

And unfortunately, I tell most of those clients like, it's never gonna be enough. Yeah. Like you could give three quarters instead of half and they'd be like, and you sure. 'cause you better have, 'cause you stink. Like they just are so mad and they're so hurt that there's nothing you can throw at it that's gonna make it better.

But then eventually what happens is during that window of like, oh my God, I feel very guilty, and let me just throw some things at this and hope that it works. That window closes and turns into, well, you know, I did this because you were cold and you were always so cold you didn't meet my needs. And that suddenly it turns it.

And that's a perfect storm. Yikes, because you've got the person who's been cheated on, and the cheater who now has the permission of their own conscience to have been cheating. And was trying to be nice and was trying to be conciliatory, and now is like, you smacked my hand away and now boom, gloves are off and we're gonna throw hands,

[00:10:29] Jordan Harbinger: man.

It's, you've said that marriage is negligent behavior. Tell me about that. I mean, we probably have to define negligence a lot. Well, I think it, it fits

[00:10:36] James Sexton: the definition of negligence. Yeah. So negligence. Is a failure to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk of serious harm.

[00:10:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:10:44] James Sexton: Right. That's the definition.

Black's law, you we're law school grads. Come on. That's right. So that, that's neg versus recklessness, which is a conscious disregard for a substantial and unjustifiable risk of harm. And so you might remember from torts in the first year, the BPL L analysis, right? They, I mean, a little bit. Yeah. Really?

Yeah. See, I, it's got stuck in my head, you know? Yeah. But yeah, and I have one of those memories that. I know the entire of Jay-Z's Reasonable Doubt album, you know? But I can't remember my kids' birthdays. Oh, good. Just must loved it. But I have the whole, yeah, the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. My ex-wife thinks it's hilarious.

Yeah. So the reality is, is that negligence is defined essentially as what's called a BPL L analysis, which is the burden of not engaging in activity and what is it relative to? The likelihood of harm and the seriousness of harm. So if there's a likelihood of harm but it's minimal harm, then it may not be negligent.

If, especially if not doing the thing is a substantial burden. Right. Whereas, so like driving for example. Mm-Hmm. If you drive there is a substantial likelihood you'll get in a car accident at some point. And a car accident can be a very high degree of harm. However, refraining from driving would be very difficult to do.

Mm-Hmm. Especially in some areas of the world. Right. So driving can't be said to be a negligent activity. Skydiving, okay? The risk of harm is fairly high. If something goes wrong, the risk of catastrophic harm is incredibly high, and the problem or the burden of refraining from skydiving is minimal, right?

So that is negligent an inherently negligent activity, right? So marriage, you could pretty easily argue with a 56% fail rate. Okay, so that's the prob. Is that the, is that

[00:12:19] Jordan Harbinger: the stat now? That's the

[00:12:20] James Sexton: current stat. Okay. That's the current stat. It's always a moving target, but the current stat is 56. Now again.

That's just the divorce rate. So that's the people who went in and filed a divorce and are getting divorced. Okay. What percentage of people stay together for the kids? Oh, I see. Or for religious reasons or? 'cause they don't wanna give away half their stuff. Like that's a pro, I would imagine a fairly high number.

Sure. But let's just forget those people. Let's say that as success stories of some kind. Sure. Like the, well, you know what? We're winning the battle 'cause we're not getting divorced. We're both miserable. But this endurance contest continues and we're winning. Setting

[00:12:50] Jordan Harbinger: a terrible

[00:12:50] James Sexton: example for our kids. Yeah.

We're setting it Terrible this's. Exactly right. We are gonna hang in there and we're gonna not get divorced. You know, it's really admirable. I

[00:12:56] Jordan Harbinger: guess in some way is this 56% of couples or 56% of marriages? Of marriages? Because of marriages. So the people who get divorced like five times, they're skewing this a little bit?

Yes, but they represent a very

[00:13:07] James Sexton: small percentage of the population. I see. If you look at just the first marriage failure rate, it's like 48%. Oh, that's pretty bad. It's still really bad. Put it in relative terms. Toyota had a car. In the nineties that at a 0.0001 brake failure rate. Yeah. And they recalled all of that, the entire line of vehicles until they could fix it.

Yeah, yeah. Because they were like, that is an unacceptable risk. Right? Point oh oh oh one. Not even 1%, but let's use 56. Let's use 48. Whatever you want to use. This is a huge number. It is more likely than not that it will fail. So what is the likelihood of harm that's high. What is the severity of the harm?

Most people who've been through over divorce will tell you it was one of the most traumatic experiences of their life. Sure. Some will tell you it was absolutely catastrophic. I mean, any of us who've ever had a breakup, no. Like a breakup is tough. A breakup is, you can say to anybody in any culture like breakup and they go, Ooh, yeah.

Yeah. It's like we all know that feeling in the pit of your stomach and you know, like that. We all have that. So a divorce is just that on steroids, you know? Yeah. So the trick,

[00:14:11] Jordan Harbinger: the

[00:14:11] James Sexton: trick is

[00:14:11] Jordan Harbinger: to be lonely and play video games by yourself all day.

[00:14:14] James Sexton: I mean, listen, there's a school of thought that says that not having, uh, extended relationships with any kind of intimacy and just sort of lead pipe cruelty and mercenary sensibilities the way to go, I don't know.

I don't know that I'm the expert on the, the right way to do it. You know, I, my mother used to always say that she couldn't define intelligence, but she could spot stupid a mile away. I don't really know what makes people happy. I know what doesn't. I know what makes them miserable, and I can see a lot of that in the context of relationship.

Sure. And so in terms of negligence, yeah, it is more likely than not going to cause serious harm. So the bigger question on that calculation then is what's the burden of not doing it? Which to me gets us back to the fundamental question, which is if you said to me. I'm getting married. The proper response culturally is, oh, that's so great.

Mm-Hmm, congratulations. Congratulations. When? What kind of cake? Are you gonna be on an island? Are you gonna do a big thing? Are you gonna have a band with DHA? What are you gonna do? Instead of why? Why? Yeah. That's a rude response. Most people, it's a very rude response. But, but here's the thing. Why? If I caught you in your corporate lawyer days and you said, I'm leaving the practice of law.

I said, why? Perfectly legitimate question. Sure. That's what everyone said. And if you said, I'm sure, and if you said, 'cause I'm gonna start a podcast. Yeah. What's a podcast? Anyone who loves you, right. Would've said, oh yeah, this is a terrible idea. That is exactly what happened. This is a terrible idea. Of course they did listen.

Now everybody looks back and goes, oh my God, I always knew you were gonna be so successful. Oh yeah.

[00:15:45] Jordan Harbinger: I would've bought stock in you if I could have. That's what I hear. I, I appreciate that. I say you and I have

[00:15:49] James Sexton: a, when I left the firm I was working for 24 years ago and said, I'm going out on my own. Yeah. I have no clients.

I have nothing. I just have the hubris of youth and a law degree on a lot of confidence at that time, an irrational level of confidence. At that time, my skillset only just recently caught up with my level of confidence. And everybody who cared about me was like, this is not field the dreams, man. If you build it, they might not come right?

Like that is not a great idea. And now of course all of them are like, we always knew you were gonna be so successful as a lawyer and you always had such a skill level. But look, the truth is I. I think we need to ask the question, what is the problem to which marriage is a solution? Because I'm stunned that we don't ask that question when someone says, I'm getting married.

Why is it weird to say why this is a technology that fails the majority of the time? Why would you do that? I think most people have never really even contemplated that question. Even married people have not contemplated that question. They just haven't. Why did we get married? It's just a thing you do.

It's a thing you do. It's assumed you're gonna do it. But I work from the, and maybe it's my own pathology, but I work from the preposition. That tradition is peer pressure exerted by dead people. It's really what tradition is. So when you just do something, 'cause that's a thing we do as a species, I'm very quick to say, right, but why?

Like, why? Because there's lots of things we do that when you go, why? Oh, okay, that makes a lot of sense. Mm-Hmm. That adds up. You know, if we do it for a reason, if something is a tradition, I can work from the assumption that there must be a logic behind it. But if the proof, the undisputable proof out there.

Is that this does not seem like a good idea like marriage. Why would you continue to work from the assumption? It's a great idea. You should definitely do it, and it's a default mode, and if you don't do it. You have intimacy issues, right? There's something wrong with you. Like if you say, I'm in such a happy relationship, but we are never gonna get married.

It instantly becomes, oh, what's going on with Jen? She's got some intimacy issues here. Yikes.

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So come on and join us. You'll be in smart company where you belong. You can find the course again for free@sixminutenetworking.com. Now back to James Sexton. I got a buddy who got married because his wife is from another country, and it was a huge pain to have her stay here. Sure. Get pregnant, have a kid citizenship.

Sure. Of both the European country that she's in and he can't get insurance there. So I was like, that's a good reason. Great reason. Yeah. That's a great reason. It's also a pragmatic reason. Yeah.

[00:21:00] James Sexton: It's a practical reason. If you say, look, I have terrible health insurance and my soon to be spouse, my romantic partner I've been with for a number of years has phenomenal low cost health insurance that would cover my dental optical and everything.

Perfectly pragmatic. Good reason, right? You know, religious, we come from a religious tradition, my spouse and I, or my soon to be spouse and I. That we believe religion. You know that marriage is a covenant from God, or we believe it's a sacrament, or we believe that it's okay. Cool. Good reason. Yeah, good reason.

I don't know that it's gonna make it work any better, but it certainly is a good enough reason. But just asking the question, the fact that asking that question is considered rude in the face of the overwhelmingly bad statistics. Right. I just don't understand why that's a weird thing to say.

[00:21:45] Jordan Harbinger: No, it's not.

Although you're in a unique position of credibility when it comes to this stuff. Yeah. I think. Probably a lot of people don't really wanna hear your opinion when they You're un until, yeah, well, until they're getting divorced. I'm definitely

[00:21:55] James Sexton: the skunk at the picnic. Right, right. I, I, I, people are, are simultaneously fascinated by what I do.

Sure. And terrified to let it anywhere near. Well,

[00:22:04] Jordan Harbinger: it's like a hitman.

[00:22:05] James Sexton: Exactly. It's like, oh my God,

[00:22:07] Jordan Harbinger: my friend is so interested. Yeah. Do not invite that guy to the Christmas

[00:22:10] James Sexton: dinner. Yeah. Yeah. People love the, what do you do? Oh my God. You must have some stories. They're real into it, but I think they all wanna believe that they're personally exempt.

Mm-Hmm. From the things that I've seen and that the people in my office are somehow different than them. Yeah. And that they're, you know, completely like the rules don't, that I see. Don't apply to them. Sure. And I think that's, you know. There's something in us that wants that. I get it. You know? Well

[00:22:37] Jordan Harbinger: they think you're just Real Housewives all the time.

Reality TV show place thrown across the kitchen when I would assume the story, correct me if I'm wrong, is more like, yeah, they got married and it was great and then over time they just stopped really being uh, yeah. I mean, you know, there is a lot

[00:22:54] James Sexton: good to each other of the Real Housewives stuff in my office.

I've actually, well yeah, represented some of the actual Real Housewives, but the majority of divorces don't need someone like me. That's one thing. So you don't need me if you're just two people. Lower middle class, middle class, upper middle class, two kids a house and 401k mm-Hmm. And you just gotta split it up.

You don't need me for that. I'm a chainsaw. I'm not a scalpel. You use me when, when there are stakes and when you need, when you need a weapon, you know I'm a weapon. That's my job. And so the kinds of cases I handle tend to have a crazy component to them, or at least the potential for crazy. So you want me like there's a saying that police officers carry guns so they don't have to use them.

Mm-Hmm. And so sometimes people hire me so they don't have to use me. I see. Like they hire me. I'm the threat of, oh yeah, those five magic words, please call your first witness. Like those are gonna get said if you take the wrong turn here, so let's get this thing done. The better I get as a trial lawyer, the less often I have to try cases.

It's like the better you get as a fighter, the less often you have to fight. Probably 'cause people look at you and go, yeah, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna swing on that guy. So the best trial lawyers in this city, like we all know each other. We end up just negotiating with each other. We don't have trying cases against each other.

That's often because it's a doctrine of mutually assured destruction. We both have nukes. Sure, but the majority of marriages end with a wimp or not a bang. There are two people that just grow apart in some fashion, and I've said it before, that people's relationships fail, whether it married or not. We fall in love really fast, and it's instantaneous, almost, and chemical and pheromonal and all that stuff.

But we fall out of love, like we go bankrupt or like we gain weight very slowly and then all at once. It's this quick rush, you know, and, and look like, I mean, you know, falling feels like flying for a little while, you know, until you hit the ground. Right. But I get that like we, we fall in love super fast as a species and then when we're falling in love or anyone around us is falling in love, we absolutely, like, we just love being around it even.

Yeah, sure. You'll listen to those same group of women you know, that you see in the restaurant, like rolling their eyes, talking about their husband is just such an idiot, you know, da, da da. And then one of the women in the group who's either divorced or not married yet starts talking about a guy who she's seeing they, what did he do?

Oh my God, that's so romantic. Oh my God. And where did he take you? Oh my God, that's so amazing. As if that guy is not in five years. Right. Gonna be who she's talking about the same way they're talking about their current spouses. Yeah. And, and vice versa. The man, it's the same thing. It's like the, right now they're sitting there talking, rolling their eyes about their spouse.

Well, and the buddy who's singles, oh my God, this woman's so great. She's perfect. She's amazing. This is a glitch in our programming. I think

[00:25:39] Jordan Harbinger: it's, man, I will tell you just personally, we do not let our, my group of friends does not let, we don't allow. If a guy's like, Hey, my spouse is doing this thing. If it's serious, we'll talk about it.

But if it's just like, oh, she's so dumb. This, we we're like, Hey, man, because that, I feel like that's the beginning or symptom of something that is not healthy. Yeah. I, I applaud

[00:25:56] James Sexton: you for that.

[00:25:56] Jordan Harbinger: I've been

[00:25:57] James Sexton: very vocal about the fact that I think I. We need to stop trash talking our partners. Yeah, a hundred percent.

The world is beating the crap out of us enough. Mm-Hmm. Your partner should be, I'm not saying they shouldn't see your blind spots. I'm not saying they should call you out when you get it wrong. That's not, yeah. Think that's one of the best things about being in a relationship is having somebody who with love.

Like with your in good intentions and, and heart, you know, like, you know, it's coming from a place of love. Mm-Hmm. And they're like, Hey man, you're not seeing this, but this is what this is like, to me, that's the whole reason I want friends like that. I want a romantic partner like that. I want all the people, I want coworkers like that.

Like I want people who aren't afraid to tell me the truth. I don't want a bunch of yes men around me. Yeah. But it's. There is something so toxic about creating an environment where the default mode is everybody talking trash Yeah. About their partner. Because I mean, just the pain to me of like this person who's supposed to be your cheerleader, your main support, it's like

[00:26:53] Jordan Harbinger: the only person who's supposed to be on your team all the time.

Yeah. Besides maybe your parents and some people don't have, yeah. I mean, I think

[00:26:58] James Sexton: anything comes outta your mouth if you're in a, in a relationship. You know, anything comes outta your mouth. Would it come outta your mouth if your partner was standing right there? Hmm. Like even with interacting with the opposite sex or, or whoever your, your preference would be like, you know, if you're with someone romantically and you're talking to someone else who's a potential romantic partner and you're talking to them in a manner that you would not be speaking to 'em that way if your partner was standing next to you, that's a problem as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, I think, I think that you should, and the truth is, is not just from a, a morality place. I'm not saying it from there. I'm saying in terms of the love you want, because. If you behave one way around your, your spouse or partner and another way in their absence, then really, are you ever gonna feel your spouse or partner's love?

That's right. 'cause you're gonna be like, oh, well, they love what they think. I'm like, but I'm not actually like that. Mm-Hmm. So then you, you created a situation where you, you never really will feel their love.

[00:27:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's an interesting point. I think especially, I, I think media's a little bit complicit in this, right?

You have like the, everybody loves Raymond, where the guys are all idiots. It's funny, but it should stay on TV only. And then you have like the locker room talk with guys. Mm-Hmm. And it's just, you have to draw a line. So I'm not saying you can't be like, wow, that girl that you're dating right now is, is beautiful man.

Oh God. Good for you. That's fine. But when it's like, oh, our wives are all fat and ugly, it's like, hey, you know, eventually you're gonna start believing that if you don't already.

[00:28:17] James Sexton: Yeah. And, and also, I, I think you're gonna. Because I do think sometimes people do it from a place of trying to like team building, right?

Yeah. So there's just other ways to do that. Like you don't wanna be, if you're in a room full of people who are all talking about how their spouse sucks, you don't wanna be the one voice that goes, oh no, mine's great. Like, it feels rude. Yeah, it feels rude. You're rapport. So you're like, okay, I gotta find something about mine to say.

Mm-Hmm. But the truth is, like I, I just think long term that's super toxic and I think it's one of the most antagonistic things to happy relationships. If you look at people. I talked about this with Lex Friedman when I was on his show. He was talking about, I think he was talking about Joe Rogan actually he was good friends with, and he was talking about how Joe's been married, you know, for a really, really long time.

And how when he talks like his wife looks at him like, oh, like, this guy's so smart. He's so awesome. Yeah. You know, and like, what a lovely thing to have. And, and by the way, like you would not ever hear Joe Rogan say a bad thing about his spouse ever. Like, you can you search the archives? You've heard him say some crazy stuff about a bunch of crazy stuff.

Mm-Hmm. But you'll never hear him trash talking his spouse. Mm-Hmm. And that I think is really admirable and is probably why he has one of the more successful marriages out there for a long period of time, because this is not a person who's trash talking their spouse.

[00:29:27] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting how that becomes a default for, like you said, for so many guys.

But again, I think it's easy to snap out of that too. You just decide that you're not gonna do that anymore. Right. And when your friends. When you're trying to lead the way on this. Mm-Hmm. I mean, I just say like, you brought this up in a show. You say like, how did you guys meet? It changes the mood. It transformed, and I will force my friends to tell me this story repeatedly.

One buddy of mine was like, why do you keep asking me that? You ever, you've heard this before? And I'm like, Hey, I'm trying to snap you outta this bullshit. Yeah.

[00:29:55] James Sexton: Pulls

[00:29:55] Jordan Harbinger: you out of it. Yeah.

[00:29:55] James Sexton: You know, there was this scene in Godfather too. That I always really liked. Where De Niro the, you know, playing the young Mm-Hmm.

Don Corleone is sitting in a theater with his like buddy, one of his consigliere friends, you know, this is before he is the Godfather, and he says, oh, you know, this girl, this girl who's in this show, I'm so in love with her. She's the most beautiful woman in the world. She's the most beautiful woman I've ever seen.

And she comes on the stage and he says to De Niro's character like, look, isn't she beautiful? Isn't she the most beautiful woman you've ever seen? And you know, in classic De Niro, you know, godfather Don Corleone, he says, you know, essentially an Italian, but it's translated. He says, um, you know, for me there's my wife.

But yeah, that's great. I. I thought like, that's so money. Mm-Hmm. Like, that's so, like, yeah. You know, for me, there's my wife. But you know what, like, that's great. That's great. And I have a couple of buddies that like, that's how they talk about their wife is that they're like, you know, listen, I, I found my girl.

Mm-Hmm. But that's great for you. Like, are you, and you could say it to, I'm like, oh man, check this girl out. Isn't, she's stunning, da da da. And they're like, beautiful girl. I mean, listen for me, there's my wife. But like for, that's great. You know? And I think there's something, so, I mean, again, this is my conception of masculinity.

Like I think there's something very masculine and cool. About a guy who's like, yeah, I picked a good one. Yeah, well I picked a

[00:31:03] Jordan Harbinger: good one and I'm happy. It's also, like you said, a lot of this is just peer pressure nonsense or like machismo crap. You actually had, speaking of looks, you said something or I read something you said essentially, I'm paraphrasing here.

Being hot is one of the most lucrative things you can do. For sure. I'd love to hear you talk about this. 'cause most people would never actually this, well, no one didn't say it out

[00:31:21] James Sexton: loud, but everybody knows it's true. Right, right. Yeah. I mean it's like you, these people won the genetic lottery. Yeah. Like being good looking, being attractive is incredibly valuable.

Look, you've either gotta be super talented, rich, or good looking. Yeah. Two outta three ain bed. Which one of those is the easiest thing to be right? That's right. There are people that are just born like that. Mm-Hmm. Like just born six foot and gorgeous. Like, and that's it. And if you get to pick which of those things you want to be right, you know, whether you wanna be, you know, born rich, that's certainly nice.

But to get rich, most people have to work at it. Brilliant. To be brilliant. Like look, some people are born with a high iq, but there's still a lot of work that has to go along with becoming educated in some fashion, being good looking. Yeah. Okay. You gotta take care of yourself. Maybe you have to eat the right things once you pass a certain age, you have to work out once you pass a certain age.

I mean, I think for your twenties you can kind of get away with Yeah. Any number of things, you know. Sure. But I think the truth is, yeah, like I do a lot of divorces for people in finance. I'm a divorce lawyer in Manhattan. Mm-Hmm. So we are the hub of commerce. Many of my wealthiest clients worth hundreds of millions and billions of dollars are in finance.

They're partners at huge firms like Goldman Sachs and any of the other, you know, investment capital type of firms. And they typically marry yoga teachers, models, artists, you know, creatives, people who do not really, they're not lucrative earners. But they just happen to be extremely attractive. And many of my clients, what a coincidence in finance.

Yeah. They are not the most attractive. They are not people who, if you went in a room and said, this woman and this man. You would go there, not on the same level. Right. In terms of their looks. So I don't think it's profane or inappropriate or insulting to anybody to say that there is an aspect of love that is an economy.

Yeah. You know, it's love is a feeling. Love is a verb, like to act with love. Love is an economy and I, I think we should be a little more honest about that in the world. Yeah. As a divorce lawyer, I don't have the luxury of being able to pretend that it's not. I understand why we wanna pretend that no, it's the heart and that's all that it is, and there's nothing else to it.

There's an economy to it, gang. Like we all know that nobody's really being honest about this, right? Like if you ask, well, everyone's being honest, lot of people are being honest about, well, they're acting. Honestly, no one is saying it out loud. No one's saying it out loud. I'm saying

[00:33:42] Jordan Harbinger: the quiet part out loud.

Right? The, the guy would probably never, well, it depends on the guy, but he's probably gonna go, you know, we just clicked. Yeah, it was great. Oh yeah. He's not gonna go. Yeah, I'm a fat schlubby dude. Yeah. Who smells bad, but I'm loaded. Which is

[00:33:57] James Sexton: shocking to me because you would think, I mean, some of these guys are the most intelligent people, like they're the smartest person in the room.

Mm-Hmm. And they understand like some of 'em are quant people that they understand like. They understand mathematics and numbers in a way that I never will. Yeah. They're not risk adverse. If anything, they lean into risk. So they're constantly doing the calculus in their head of like risk versus reward.

Mm-Hmm. So these are smart, tenacious, hardworking, forward-thinking people who are disciplined, I. When it comes to love, they're the total opposite. Yeah. They're just idiots and they really legit don't see what's plainly in front of them. Yeah. That, no, she's not. It's not just that you click, it's not that she's an old soul.

So the fact that she's 25, 30 years younger than you doesn't mean anything 'cause she's an old soul. Mm-Hmm. Or you are young at heart. It's just not Totally. And again, I just think there's something silly about that. It's silly. It would just be so much nicer. More honest to say, you know what? I bring a lot to the table in terms of resources and stability and security.

She brings a lot to the table in terms of energy and enthusiasm and beauty.

[00:35:00] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-Hmm.

[00:35:01] James Sexton: And she brings to my life a, a type of beauty that inspires something in me and makes me feel so alive. And I mean. As a heterosexual man, like when I walk past a beautiful woman and smell the perfume of her in the A, like, it's lovely.

Mm-Hmm. Like, it's a lovely feeling. I mean, even if you never act on that, even if you never have any interaction with that woman, again, just being in the presence of beauty is a lovely feeling. Mm-Hmm. You know, and I'm sure that I had a conversation with a bisexual friend of mine. I said, so do you just experience that all day with like every must, every gender?

And he was like, yeah. And I was like, my God. Like how you get anything done? Yeah. You know? I was like, you walk down the street and like he just raises the bar. Yeah. You're just surrounded by gorgeous people, you know, of both genders. Like what a lovely gift to be able to experience that. The truth is that I just think there's nothing wrong with saying that.

With saying that, yes. Part of what I really like about this person is their beauty, their youth, and part of what this person likes about me is my stability and financial security, and the fact that I want to use my resources to make their life more comfortable. Sure. And beautiful. I've had plenty of cases, very often, prenups, so they're still married where he brings a lot of finance to the table.

She's a creative person who unfortunately we don't reward many of the arts and the creative pursuits of the world out there. Like, you know, a person who does reiki and is helping a bunch of people, or who works as a therapist or a teacher isn't making that much money compared to someone in finance who's like really creating nothing.

They're just moving numbers around columns and they're making billions doing it. What's wrong with saying, you know, I want her to be able to do this beautiful, wonderful thing for the world or for the people who she serves, and to also be able to enjoy abundance and beauty and travel and all the wonderful things that come with resources.

Mm-Hmm. So what's wrong with that? I don't think there's anything wrong with that, as long as it's honest. Right? As long as everyone is being candid with each other about what that exchange is made up of.

[00:37:00] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I think because it's not romantic or it's considered like. Distasteful to say, but why isn't it romantic?

No, I with you, I don't think that

[00:37:06] James Sexton: robs the romance.

[00:37:07] Jordan Harbinger: I 100% agree with you with this, but I don't

[00:37:09] James Sexton: have to. I've often quoted the Joseph Brodsky poem that I like very much called a song where there's a line where he says, I wish I knew no astronomy when stars appear. Because there's something about knowing astronomy that makes the stars less beautiful.

But I don't know. I don't know about that. That's true. I think, I think if anything, like one of my best friends is a art history professor, and I like to go to the museums here in New York. It's one of the reasons I live in New York. And whenever I go to an art museum with him, because he knows like the life history of every artist, it's way more

[00:37:37] Jordan Harbinger: interesting that way, man.

Oh

[00:37:38] James Sexton: my God. Like I love Francis Bacon. But then when he was like, yeah, he was like a closeted homosexual who was raised in this, you know, Roman Catholic society, Irish Catholic Society, and then you see like the pain in his art and like the, the kind of bondage that's a big theme in his art. It makes so much more sense.

And it's so much more, it doesn't rob it of its beauty of anything. It makes it more beautiful. 'cause you understand it

[00:38:01] Jordan Harbinger: better. You can get your hands around it. Honestly, I don't, I'm not an art guy at all, but if I go on a really good tour where somebody's like, what does this look like to you? And I'm like, oh, it's like a photograph, but it's a painting.

She goes exactly. He painted something in motion and the way he did that was to make it look like a photograph. And I'm like, this is a million ti. Yeah. I would've walked right past that. Yeah. And been like, where's Van Gogh? Take a picture. Look at it, admire it, leave. It was just, that's different. And isn't there something different

[00:38:24] James Sexton: about like the truth, you know, as someone who, who's in involved in full context storytelling?

I always tell my clients like, the truth just sounds different. It just feels different. Like you can just feel the truth sometimes. And I really think there's something very beautiful about truth, and I think in relationships, like there's a real beauty to be found in being radically candid with each other.

Yeah. About what you're really feeling, what you're really afraid of, what really for good or for bad, like is hitting you the wrong way. And that's why in, in my book, I talk a lot about, I call it hitting send now, but. Essentially like being radically candid with your partner about when little things rub you the wrong way in a non attacking way, so it's not met with defensiveness.

And in a non-confrontational way, I recommend things like an email. So a person, you can parse it carefully and then they can digest it in their own time talking about these little seeds of hurt. Before they grow into these like bushes of resentment. Yeah. You know, and I think it's a whole lot easier to control it when it's just that little seed.

[00:39:31] Jordan Harbinger: My wife is good at this. She is, and she's helped me get better at this. She'll say something like, Hey, you know, the other day when this happened, that kind of just made me feel like you weren't on my team. And that conversation, I'm like, oh, I did that and I, you're right. I kind of should have seen that coming.

Maybe next time I won't do it that way or what. And it's so helpful. Yeah.

[00:39:50] James Sexton: There's so much value in that discussion. So much value, man. And there's so much value in also learning then how the other person thinks. Because I'm sure in that response, like your first response is, okay, well first of all, I'm sorry because I know I didn't mean to hurt you.

Yeah, I know that. I know that. I sure. And then you sniff like I'm sure I do. Could have avoided that. Yeah, I'm sure I did. And so I apologize for that. 'cause I know I didn't mean to. Right. But here's what I was. Thinking like, here's why I said that. Mm-Hmm. Because it wasn't, well good 'cause I wanted to hurt you.

It was, no, I said that because I understood it this way or I didn't realize that bothered you. And that's why like, and I think when you understand how this person's thinking better, like I, I have found, I. I said it earlier and I, I'll say it a thousand times, like we break in relationship and we heal in relationship.

And I think when you've had difficult relationships or you've had quote unquote unsuccessful relationships Mm-hmm. That result in not a happily ever after, but instead ending and then, you know, moving in your own directions, it starting new relationships. You can look at each of those as like, okay, now I know a bunch of things about what doesn't work for me, both in terms of what I could do different or what I want different in a partner, or what I won't do again in terms of how I handled something.

And I'd like to think we just get better and better at this if we approach it the right way, mindfully. Did your

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Now back to James Sexton. I will say every time I've had a long-term relationship in my life, I'll go, alright, what worked in this one? This isn't even necessarily a conscious process. Mm-Hmm. This is just like, I really like these five things about her. These other things were the deal breaker. Mm-Hmm. Like she was, you know, super X, Y, Z or she, like I dated a girl, was really great, but she was very religious and she was like, I think gay people are all going to hell.

And I was like, I. I'm gonna have a hard time with this one. Can't teach my kids that it's a bridge too far. Yeah. Kids, I can't do it. And we talked about this a lot and she's just like, I don't even dislike them. I just think that they're all gonna burn in hell. And I'm like, that's right. Right. I'm not raising kids in this environment.

Right. And so I was like, I want these eight things that were really great. Mm-hmm. If possible. But I can't deal with these two things that were not great. But I've found that friends of mine who are divorced in like a, a mess. They tend to make the same mistakes over and over again. Sure. Or they're stuck in this weird pattern and I go, so you broke up with her because of this.

Your new girlfriend has all of those same downsides. Sure. But she's. Different in other ways. I'm so confused right now. Well, this is the

[00:44:38] James Sexton: reality of like people not being in therapy as far as I'm concerned because I, I really do think that like one of the things I'm so grateful to have seen happen in my lifetime is the normalization of, of mental health services.

Well, hell yeah. Like people go into therapist because I think one of the best things you can do for yourself is like, okay, I find this attractive. Okay, why? Like why? Yeah. Why is that attractive to you? Is there something, is there a wound that you had that that helps heal? Yeah. Or is there a wound that you had that that repeats for you?

Yeah. And therefore justifies that original wound? Like, so are you just hurting yourself? Like, oh, this is a familiar kind of pain, so I'm just gonna keep signing up for it. Yes, sir. Like and for men, I don't know if this is true for women, 'cause I've never been a woman. But I know for myself as a man and many of my male friends Yeah.

Is like who my penis is interested in. Yeah. And who I should be interested in. Like who's good for me. Yeah. Are very different. And I don't know if that's true for women. Like I don't know if the clitoris is like, you know, it has its own mind of like, oh, I like that. Harder to point those, but that's really bad for my prefrontal cortex.

Like that's really bad for the rest of my biology. Yeah. And so. If that's the case, like I'm not saying don't indulge that. Like, listen, cupcakes are bad for you, but you can have a cupcake once in a while. It's okay. You know, just know like, this is not my new eating plan. Mm-Hmm. And this is not like what I'm going to eat every day.

If this becomes a staple of your diet, you're gonna be unhappy. So, you know, I don't mind if somebody says, listen, I know I find this very attractive. I don't know why, like desire. When I was teaching my own children who are now adults, when I was teaching them. 'cause I had a lot of gay and lesbian friends at the time.

They were little. And I live in Chelsea, so I, I'm, oh yeah. I would primarily gay area. And I was always surrounded by, you know, gay men. And so explaining to my sons, like I. Some boys, like boys and some girls like girls and some boys like girls. And you know how I like your mom, she has pretty blonde hair and I think mom is super pretty 'cause she has pretty blonde hair.

Well, some people like, you know, women with dark hair and some men like men with dark hair. Like people like different things. Yeah. But what's nice is someday you're gonna figure out what you like. Hopefully you're gonna like something and, and someone's gonna like the same thing that you like, and the two of you're gonna hug and kiss each other.

And that's one of the nicest things in the whole wide world. That was like basically my 1 0 1 explanation. Both of my sons ended up quite well adjusted and in happy relationships. So the truth of all of this is, you know, we can't explain certain aspects of our desire, so why not just acknowledge like, yeah, I really like that.

It's not good for me. Yeah. It doesn't work for me. It leads me down dark roads. I've learned that, but I still really like it, so I might have to just look at it from afar and go, yeah, like, listen, I used to smoke cigarettes many, many years ago. Mm-Hmm. I quit smoking 20 plus years ago, but I. I still look at someone smoking a cigarette.

I can't watch Mad Men and not go, oh God, that looks so good. You know, with the

[00:47:27] Jordan Harbinger: whiskey. Yeah. I'm,

[00:47:28] James Sexton: listen, you told me I'm dying next week, I'm gonna start smoking again. For sure. You know, like, and I'm sure the minute I took one puff I would be like, oh my, my God, how did I ever do this? I guarantee it. But I have to tell you, like in my mind, like I know it's really bad for me, but it's something that was alluring to me and, and looks compelling to me.

Maybe the reality of it wouldn't be as good as what it is in my mind. But I've learned enough to know I'm not gonna attempt fake. Right. 'cause I think if I went and bought a pack of cigarettes and started smoking them within a week, I'd be smoking two packs a day. So I'm not going there.

[00:47:59] Jordan Harbinger: You gotta treat it like drinking well or drinking Sure.

Depending on how you drink, I guess. But like for, I don't, for me, yeah. Not at all. I mean, for me it's rarely I'll have like an old fashioned Sure. It's very occasional. And you get, like you said, guys who only date like really bad for them people. Sure. Women two, there's tons. Yeah. I'm talking about guys in my wrong man over and over in my own circle, I guess.

Sure, sure. And you just go, when are you gonna learn? Yeah. And it's like you don't have whiskey for breakfast generally, but this is a.

[00:48:25] James Sexton: Biological blind. Spot spot. It's the blind spot. It really is. And I think it might be part of the programming, like it might be part of our biological programming. Is that that there it is.

There are some things that I think are just hardwired into human beings. Like if you talk to any woman who's given birth, they will tell you that right after they gave birth, the thought of ever having a kid again, they were like, oh my God, I'll never do this again. It was so physically painful. Sure. It was so awful.

It was so horrific. Like six months, a year later, their brain goes, oh, it wasn't that bad. It's what, what? What was that? Yeah, they forgot and there's something in us, but I didn't forget I filmed it. That puts that aside and goes, Nope. Like memory is kind. Yeah. For that reason, you know, and so I think it's the same thing with relationships.

It's there's some voice inside of us that I think comes from some deep part of our biology, our wiring. That says, you know, oh no, it's gonna be different this time. Like this time it's love. This time it's real.

[00:49:20] Jordan Harbinger: Even if you're self-aware, man, I, I gotta be careful. I don't make this person too obvious. I have a friend that I knew when I was younger that I still know he's a hedge fund guy.

Like smart guy. Very smart. I. He only dated the most horrible, meanest women that he could find. And I, his parents were both fine. I met them. They're great. Yeah. Uh, his sister was a sweet gal. If he found somebody who was just kind of horrific most of the time, that's what he liked. Yeah. And he, he goes, yeah, I just really love this.

Yeah. And I'm like, you gotta be so careful. Married a totally perfectly nice woman, thank God, Uhhuh. But it was,

[00:49:54] James Sexton: it was close. But that may have been that, that it's a close call phenomenon that like, you know. That he found something exciting he did about the conflict and the chaos. Yeah. And that's okay.

Like I said, it's listen, if you're a thrill seeker mm-hmm. You might look for that. But if you had, thank God he had the good sense to say he's a smart guy. Yeah. Long term, that's not what I'm going for. Yeah. Like I'm gonna go for something long term. Committed. That's going to be a lot calmer than that. I mean, he would, he

[00:50:20] Jordan Harbinger: literally, there were

[00:50:20] James Sexton: girls, he

[00:50:21] Jordan Harbinger: is in the minority.

There were girls where we go. I think she's like a psychopath. Yeah. Because she wanted to be, I remember this one wanted to be a brain surgeon, and we were like, wow, she's so smart. And then we found out that one of the things she liked was cutting people open and then writing her initials on people's skull when she was cutting their skull open.

And I go, why? And she's like. Just so I'm there and they can never get rid of me. And I was like, well, that's creepy as hell. That is, that is creepy as hell. That's super creepy. She's like really

[00:50:46] James Sexton: very creepy. She sounds very interesting. Yeah. Well she was, you know what I mean? She was interesting. Like, she sounds very interesting, but uh, like if you gave me a choice between someone who on the weekends wants to make like tuna noodle casserole.

Yeah. And go to like the local like parade for like, whatever, you know, Arbor Day. Or someone who does shit like that. Yeah. Sign me up. Well, like I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I don't know that I'm gonna wanna marry. Right, right. Either of

[00:51:09] Jordan Harbinger: those people raise children with them, et cetera. I, I'm not

[00:51:11] James Sexton: doing that with either of 'em, but I have to tell you, if you ask me which of those two you wanna talk to, the brain carving chick.

There you go. I wanna talk to her. That is interesting

[00:51:19] Jordan Harbinger: to me. I'll introduce you. She's probably divorced by now. Well, who knows? You mentioned, I might already know her. You might already, yeah. You might already know her. Maintaining a healthy marriage is like maintaining a healthy weight. And I think, I don't know if you said this, but don't wait until your teeth are falling out to go to the dentist.

Yes, I did. That's sort of to our earlier point, right? Yeah. About I said that. I definitely said that because my

[00:51:35] James Sexton: sister's a dentist and I always use her as the example. My sister always says to me that by the time you have a toothache, it's too late. Mm-Hmm. Like there's a bunch of things I could have done for you before you got a toothache.

Yeah. But now that you got a toothache, it's too late. So that's the original title of my first book was If you're in my Office, it's already too late. Yeah. Nice. And so I genuinely believe that by the time divorce is anything other than a leading thought you have when your spouse does something really boneheaded.

Mm-Hmm. It's pretty far along. Like you're starting to really have a toothache at that point. So I genuinely believe in preventative maintenance. I think that it's much easier as the metaphor you said, it's much easier to maintain a healthy weight than it is to gain a ton of weight and then try to lose all that weight.

And it's also worse for you to do it that way. Yeah. Like it's better to just try to create a steady state and understand that every now and then you are gonna put on a couple pounds or lose a couple pounds unexpectedly. More often put on a couple pounds unexpectedly, but it's the same kind of thing.

You're occasionally gonna have turbulence with your partner. You can't, it's hard to relate to yourself, much less to another person in such an intimate world and an antagonistic world like, you know. That's why I always say to people like, why do we learn how to fight with our partner while we're in a fight with our partner?

That seems really stupid to me. Why not when you're getting married or starting a relationship and you have this abundance of goodwill together where you just really like each other more than anything in the whole wide world. Like when you're first dating, I love talking to people who are just drunk on the like how into each other they are.

Mm-Hmm. Like that, that stage. It's so fun to even be around, like it's why we watch rom-coms and stuff. Like, it's so fun to watch people who are just like enamored with this other, and everything they do is awesome. And like even they're like, things they do that are kind of annoying, they're like, oh, and this is like this little picadillo with their personality.

Like, and you know, you know that five years later it's gonna be like, why are you breathing like that? Yeah, yeah. But at that, that first date or that fifth date, it's like, oh, when he breathes so weird. It's so cute. Her nose whistles when she sleeps. That whistling is gonna drive you nuts and fibers. Oh yeah.

But again, what is it about, it's about how you're approaching this thing, right? And, and like you got Christmas in your eyes all the time with this person. So to me, figuring out a way to sustain that high or like how to continue to, to stand in the presence of that. Is really the key. I, you know, the book I'm working on now is about endings and it's about how when we put ourself in the mind of the ending, we really savor everything that leads to it much better.

So like when we are in the presence of death, we're very much alive when we're in the presence of illness. We're grateful for our good health and mindful of our good health. When we see someone who's lost their job, we're so grateful for the job we have. There's so much we can, like every new beginning came from some other beginning's end.

And there's something really beautiful about what I do for a living in that I see all of these endings. Mm-Hmm. And they all came from people that were facing in the same direction at one point. Like at some point they were like. Let's do this. There's 8 billion people in the world and let's pick each other and let's hold hands and let's try to navigate it together and try to help each other go through it.

And you know, like, it's so beautiful. It's such a worthwhile sentiment. Maybe it's a foolish sentiment, I don't know. But it's so human. And the fact that so many of them, 50% or more lose the plot. And I, I just think there's something beautiful about that, that we keep trying, we keep trying to not lose the plot.

We keep stepping on the same landmines over and over and over again. And so I think preventative maintenance is probably the key because you all started in the same spot, which is madly in love with each other. So why not have conversations about, Hey, how are we gonna keep this on track? When we disagree, when we fight, what should that look like?

What do you need? Do you need a minute or are you the like, okay, we gotta deal with this right now. We can't go to bed angry type because right. One of us is that, and one of us is the other type. We gotta figure out how to balance that the right way. You know, like have some, some of those conversations when there's still so much goodwill between the two of you.

[00:55:44] Jordan Harbinger: If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy.

[00:55:51] Derren Brown: I was walking. From one hotel to another. Quite late at night. It was, I was at a magic convention in Wales. I was wearing a three piece of velvet suit.

'cause why not? 'cause why not? So this guy is, you know, he is really drunk and he is, uh, clearly yeah. Looking for a fight. And he is with his girlfriend and he's all, his adrenaline's kind of, you know, up here. And he starts shouting at me and says something like, what are you looking at? Or what's your problem?

Or something in that situation you can't respond with, oh, I'm not looking at anything. 'cause then you are on the back foot and. They've got power or Yeah, I'm looking at you. What's your problem? 'cause I, either way, you're, you're gonna get hit, but you can just not play that game right from the outset. So I said, the wall outside my house isn't four foot high.

So his reaction to that is a, a bit of a pause is like, what? And I stood the wall outside. My house isn't four foot high. When I lived in Spain, the walls that were quite high, but here they're. Tying him in a nothing. So, so he, then he just went, oh, fuck, and started crying. His girlfriend walked off and he sat down by the side of the road.

I sat down next to him and started asking about what had gone wrong that night. I think his girlfriend had bottled somebody. That'd been some fight. And weirdly then I'm giving him, giving him advice. I was talking to a friend of mine about this thing and he, um, he's an artist and he used to walk home from his studio late at night through a rough bit of London, and there were always these kind of like gangs on one side of the road, so he'd always cross over away from them.

Of course, they'd always see that and it's always this horrible, uncomfortable, intimidating thing. So we spoke about it and then the next night. He crossed over the road to them and, uh, said good evening as he walked past them. And of course they left him alone because he just seemed like a strange

[00:57:32] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

I don't

[00:57:32] Derren Brown: touch the, he's crazy. He's just, he's just weird. Yeah. Um, who wants to see a magic trick? Yeah.

[00:57:39] Jordan Harbinger: For an inside look at the levers in our own brain alongside Darren Brown, one of the world's most legendary illusionists and mentalists. Check out episode one 50 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. That's the end of part one, part two.

Coming up in just a little bit here. All things James Sexton will be in the show notes@jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers deals, discount codes, ways to support the show all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Also, our newsletter, wee bit wiser, something specific, something practical every week on Wednesday that you can read in under two minutes.

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I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. This show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Foggerty, Ian Baird and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting.

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