Chase Hughes (@thechasehughes) created The Behavioral Table of Elements for behavior analysis in interrogations, and is the author of The Ellipsis Manual: Analysis and Engineering of Human Behavior. [Note: This is a previously broadcast episode from the vault that we felt deserved a fresh pass through your earholes!]
What We Discuss with Chase Hughes:
- What is The Behavioral Table of the Elements and how can we use it to determine the likelihood that someone is telling us the truth?
- Why Chase considers polygraph tests “just about as accurate as a coin toss” — and how they’re actually biased against people who tell the truth.
- What someone training to spot deception indicators and stress might learn from watching Conan O’Brien interviews.
- How training ourselves to be subconsciously aware of truth signals clues us in when someone who’s lying deviates from them.
- How to hack authority for influence and personal development.
- And much more…
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Human beings lie. We lie to each other almost as much as we lie to ourselves. Sometimes we don’t even mean to do it, and often we’re deceptive without malice. But deception can also be used to hack human behavior, and we’re all more susceptible to the process than we probably realize. Whatever the reason, wouldn’t it be to our advantage to know when someone’s being deceptive toward us? Understanding nonverbal communication is crucial toward this end, but it’s still just part of the overall puzzle.
It would be a challenge to pull the wool over the eyes of today’s guest, however. Chase Hughes created The Behavioral Table of Elements as a more accurate analysis of behavior than the much-used (and wildly inaccurate) polygraph test, and is the author of The Ellipsis Manual: Analysis and Engineering of Human Behavior.
Listen to this episode in its entirety to learn more about how to avoid being overwhelmed by everything there is to understand about nonverbal communication, how observation of what makes other people tick levels our own playing field, the benefit of beginning with observation and not trying to make interpretations, why The Behavioral Table is more accurate than the infamous polygraph test, what to do if we sense ourselves being behavior hacked by people who mean us harm, how we can influence physical and mental state through the posture exercise, the x-ray vision exercise that identifies what really motivates someone, and lots more. Listen, learn, and enjoy! [Note: This is a previously broadcast episode from the vault that we felt deserved a fresh pass through your earholes!]
Luckily for those of us who don’t regularly interrogate people, the table can be applied to any conversation. If you’re curious, you can download The Behavioral Table of Elements from here for free — Chase encourages us to use it and “share it with the world.”
Please Scroll Down for Featured Resources and Transcript!
Please note that some of the links on this page (books, movies, music, etc.) lead to affiliate programs for which The Jordan Harbinger Show receives compensation. It’s just one of the ways we keep the lights on around here. Thank you for your support!
This Episode Is Sponsored By:
- Peloton: Learn more at onepeloton.com
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Miss our conversation with FBI hostage negotiator Chris Voss? Catch up with episode 165: Chris Voss | Negotiate as If Your Life Depended on It here!
Thanks, Chase Hughes!
If you enjoyed this session with Chase Hughes, let him know by clicking on the link below and sending him a quick shout out at Twitter:
And if you want us to answer your questions on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at email@example.com.
Resources from This Episode:
- The Ellipsis Manual: Analysis and Engineering of Human Behavior by Chase Hughes | Amazon
- The Behavioral Table of the Elements | Chase Hughes
- Chase Hughes | Why Authority Is More Influential Than Skill | The Jordan Harbinger Show
- Ellipsis Behavior Laboratories
- Chase Hughes | Website
- Chase Hughes | Twitter
- Silent Messages: Implicit Communication of Emotions and Attitudes by Albert Mehrabian | Amazon
- The 7% Rule: Fact, Fiction, or Misunderstanding by Philip Yaffe | Ubiquity
- The Milgram Experiment on Obedience to Authority Figures | Wikipedia
768: Chase Hughes | The Behavioral Table of Elements
[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by Peloton. It's the time of year where we start thinking about what next year will bring. We make New Year's resolutions to exercise more, but let's face it, will you actually stick with it? It's been proven that you're more likely to stick to a routine if it's something you enjoy, which is why so many people stick with Peloton. The instructors are so fun. It's like working out with a friend. There's a very strong Peloton community. Also, I'm all about data, and Peloton tracks your metrics so you can keep tabs on your performance over time. And right now, Peloton's got a gift for you. Get up to 200 bucks off accessories like cycling shoes, heart rate monitors — both of which I have and use regularly — and more when you purchase a Peloton Bike, Bike+, or Tread. And up to a hundred dollars off accessories with the purchase of a Peloton Guide, which will turn your TV into an AI-powered personal trainer. Make this the first step toward achieving your fitness goals in the new year. Choose from Peloton's cycling to scenic runs, boot camps to power walks. A huge variety of classes that work for you, taught by world-class instructors who know exactly how to get the best out of you. So don't wait, get this offer before it ends on December 25th. Visit onepeloton.com. All-access memberships separate, offer ends December 25th, cannot be combined with other offers. See additional terms at onepeloton.com.
[00:01:07] Coming up next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.
[00:01:10] Chase Hughes: Once you start observing behavior and you start really seeing how insecure every single person is around you, it's a humbling experience. It's kind of addictive in that once you are able to see the weaknesses and the humanity of everybody, it kind of levels the playing field that humanizes everybody that would've otherwise been threatening or that seemed unapproachable.
[00:01:39] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have in-depth conversations with scientists, entrepreneurs, spies, and psychologists, even the occasional national security advisor, former cult member, or cold case homicide investigator. Each episode turns our guest's wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better thinker.
[00:02:04] If you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes organized by topic. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything that we do here on this show — topics like abnormal psychology, persuasion and influence, disinformation, cyber warfare, negotiation and communication, crime and cults, and more. Just visit jordanharbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started.
[00:02:28] Today, one from the vault with Chase Hughes, who spent 20 years in the military teaching interrogation and behavioral science on a tactical level, so applied in the field, not purely academic. We all know the power of nonverbal communication, the signals our body gives off whether we want it to or not. And today, we'll share a few dozen powerful tips that can't be found all over the Internet, in pop culture books, in YouTube videos. We did this episode several years ago, but the content was just too good not to keep it in the show feed here. We'll also learn some principles of influence and who couldn't use more of those, and how to use social authority to influence others. And we'll take a peek behind the curtain on how this all works in practice, which will help level the playing field for us, especially for those of us who might find ourselves in a manipulative relationship at home or even at work. Last but not least, stress-free ways to start observing people without being creepy, and how to train your brain to see gestures and nonverbal signals without feeling overwhelmed. Lots of practical stuff in this one. Here we go with Chase Hughes.
[00:03:31] You being on active duty in the US military for two decades almost here—
[00:03:36] Chase Hughes: Give or take, yeah.
[00:03:37] Jordan Harbinger: You've been teaching interrogation and behavior science on a tactical level, and I assume what you mean by tactical level is, "Hey, by the way, this stuff needs to actually work. Here's how you apply this stuff."
[00:03:49] Chase Hughes: Absolutely. I remember getting books that were like persuasion books and I got kind of tired of that same feeling like, this is great information if I'm doing a PowerPoint somewhere and I want to look cool for a few minutes. And then I'd read through another book and I just got tired of getting a few paragraphs of information out of a book and I wanted a full-scale manual that was applicable in the field.
[00:04:14] Jordan Harbinger: And so you had to make it?
[00:04:15] Chase Hughes: I did. And that's what became The Ellipsis Manual.
[00:04:17] Jordan Harbinger: I've seen a lot of studies recently about nonverbal communication. It's 67 percent or 87 percent or 97 percent of whatever of the equation. And what's spoke in the words, they don't even matter. And all these studies that have been misinterpreted, frankly, but somehow a lot of nonverbal communication largely ignored in academics and largely ignored in every field other than more recently pop culture where people decided that they can watch one season of Lie to Me and then go back to their job and crush it.
[00:04:49] So I want to take a little bit of a look behind the curtain here, and I also like to take a peek on the dark side because I think a lot of manipulators use this stuff too. So if we have time, I'd love to get into that as well.
[00:05:02] Chase Hughes: What you were saying about this being ignored in academia is absolutely correct. I think the average psychotherapist or social worker goes through years and years of training and all of that — they get maybe a half hour on body language, and that's a psychotherapist with a graduate degree. And then, these are the same guys who are going out there producing studies that say it's two-thirds or some odd number of communication and then nothing changes in the academic perspective.
[00:05:33] Jordan Harbinger: The most common study that people are quoting and misquoting is the Mehrabian study, which says something like 67 percent of this is nonverbal, 30 percent of it is tonality and some singular digit percentage, something like seven percent are the words you use.
[00:05:47] Chase Hughes: Yeah.
[00:05:47] Jordan Harbinger: And so whenever people quote that, I just kind of think, well, you obviously haven't really put that to the test and really read into it because if you think that that's the case, go watch an Italian movie, if you don't speak Italian, and tell me exactly what's going on. You should be 93 percent accurate, right?
[00:06:04] Chase Hughes: Yeah.
[00:06:04] Jordan Harbinger: And you're not. So what the hell does that actually mean? And then, of course, when you go to the people who worked on that study and used that study in other studies, they're like, "Oh wait, yeah, that's not at all what that study means. It means that these are the signals that we're using and things like that, but it, you still need the whole picture in order to get an accurate perception and you can't take pieces of it, et cetera, et cetera." So it doesn't really translate. And yet, there are entire fields there — there are many a professional out there giving a TED Talk or charging a thousand dollars an hour for consulting in corporations whose foundation is that work and they don't understand it.
[00:06:39] Chase Hughes: I completely agree. I think that's misinterpreted on a daily basis. And I think what's even worse is that people are using it to market products and saying, "The body language is the only thing you'll ever need to read. Everything else is just crazy." Nonverbal communication might be somewhere around two-thirds of communication, but you're not going to understand the other third without hearing a person talk and understanding what they say without the syntax.
[00:07:03] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And if you're 33 percent off, when somebody's trying to tell you something important, you might as well just be entirely wrong, because you are.
[00:07:11] Chase Hughes: Yeah. It's a coin toss almost.
[00:07:13] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. It's an awkwardly shaped coin toss. How did you get into this? It sounds like when you were young you were a terrible student. So we have that partially in common.
[00:07:23] Chase Hughes: I was awful as a student. If I got like a C minus, it was a celebration. I failed out of high school miserably. Eventually, you know, I joined the Navy when I was 17 years old. Once I was in the Navy, I was probably 18 or 19 years old, and I started getting into pickup. And this was 1999, maybe 2000. And nobody really existed back then as far as pick-up went. There were a few sleazy books and stuff out there, and I remember one of my friends asking me like, "Oh, why don't you get that girl's number?" And I was like, "I don't think she likes me." And he's like, "Oh, yeah, she was doing this and this," and listed all these nonverbal characteristics.
[00:08:01] So I went home that night and typed in on the Internet, "how to tell if a girl likes you." I got all these body language articles and it just, it seemed like I was seeing, there's something that's been there all in my life. All of this nonverbal communication has been hidden and nobody talked about it. I never knew that it was important. And once I got good at it, I started getting good at it, I realize you really can kind of see behind people's masks just by reading body language. I'm talking about once you've studied it for quite some time and you've gotten good at it. And I think a lot of products nowadays and a lot of people seriously underestimate the amount of effort it would take to be good at it. There's so many things that say, "Seven quick tricks to do this," or, "Easy ways to get something done," and in reality, if you consider just playing the piano and learning to play the piano at maybe a concert level, that would take you years and years of study. And a human being is just about infinitely more complex than a piano. And they change every time you talk to them. They're always different. That's the equivalent of like seeing an ad online that says, "Learn to play a concert-level piano in three weeks.
[00:09:15] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Pianists hate him. This guy figured out how to play concert piano overnight.
[00:09:19] Chase Hughes: Yeah.
[00:09:19] Jordan Harbinger: Right. That kind of thing. It also is vastly different because of the way the brain is constructed. We already know from brain science, modern brain science, and up-to-date brain science that our individual brains are wired differently. So not only is it, "Become a concert pianist in three weeks," it's also on a piano that has 180,000 keys or something like that instead of the usual number of keys, you have that and then also, "And they're not arranged in the same way as the piano that you learned on a few years ago. And it's not the same as the one you have at home. And it's not the same one as I have here at school. You're going to have to figure out where the keys are in the moment while you're trying to play."
[00:09:57] Chase Hughes: Yes.
[00:09:58] Jordan Harbinger: And that's what we're looking at when we're looking at verbal and nonverbal communication taken in concert with the different variety of factors that have environment and personality all roped in there together. So if that's the case, how am I so sure, and how are you so sure that what we've got here, what you've got here is accurate and useful?
[00:10:19] Chase Hughes: The behavioral table of elements is, I think it's the most well-researched work, and I think it's being used in the field now. And the way that we use it is a cumulative read. So it doesn't automatically mean X, Y, and Z happened. It produces a certain amount of numbers associated with each gesture so that seven interrogators can read a situation in different ways, but there's a common interpretation and you can gauge the amount of deception that's likely taking place in an interrogation.
[00:10:50] Jordan Harbinger: And that's unique to interrogations, or are you using this in conversations of all kinds?
[00:10:57] Chase Hughes: It's absolutely applicable to anything. The day I came up with the idea for this, I was watching, reluctantly watching an episode of The Bachelor with my mother, and she was talking about how she liked this girl and what her favorite girl was, and how she hated the other one. And I said, "Well, the one you liked was just lying to them when they were in the hot tub." And she was like, "Well, I just, I wish I could use your eyes for just an hour. So I could see this stuff."
[00:11:24] Jordan Harbinger: What a great use of modern cutting-edge science to look at The Bachelor.
[00:11:29] Chase Hughes: Right. Is Tina going to make it to the end?
[00:11:31] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Who's going to get eliminated? Who gets voted off the island? How do we start to even look at this behavior? Because if I look at a piano and I decide I'm going to learn how to play this, there's got to be a place to start without getting overwhelmed. I think it's just now that we've accepted the idea that maybe we can learn this stuff, how do we look at that without going, "All right, well, since we can't simplify it like we can in the book, you and I were just talking about, that we decided wasn't useful, the useful stuff seems very complicated. Where do we even begin without freaking out that we're never going to get it?"
[00:12:03] Chase Hughes: I would say a lot of people get overwhelmed in the beginning because they realize that it's a big undertaking. You've got to treat that journey kind of like an experiment. And once you start observing behavior and you start really seeing how insecure every single person is around you, it's a humbling experience. It's kind of addictive in that once you are able to see the weaknesses and the humanity of everybody, it kind of levels the playing field. It humanizes everybody that would've otherwise been threatening or that seemed unapproachable. And you can kind of see through the social masks that everybody wears. And it's a humbling thing. And I would say at the beginning, once you're starting out, just see behavior for behavior's sake. Don't try to make an interpretation. Don't try to go flip through a book and figure out what everything means. Spend a week watching people's pupil dilation and seeing whether they're blinking fast or slow. Spend a week watching whether or not somebody's breathing into their chest or their stomach. Just make those small plans, take it week by week and just make small observations without trying to interpret stuff, and I think that is absolutely the best way to go about it. I wish that I had that advice when I started.
[00:13:20] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So instead of thinking, all right, I got to figure out if this person is lying or if this person is under stress, just watch people talk and think, "All right, well, they're breathing in through their stomach, meaning they're more relaxed — or in their chest, meaning they're possibly that they're less relaxed. They're speaking with their arms crossed, well, it is cold. Okay, cool." Instead of trying to interpret what that means, just look at the behavior so that we can start to develop an eye for looking at smaller behaviors instead of trying to look for them and interpret them in context in real time.
[00:13:51] Chase Hughes: Absolutely. Once you start making a habit of seeing behavior, it gets pushed from consciousness to kind of unconscious behavior. Just like driving or learning how to ride a motorcycle, that takes a ton of your focus in the beginning until that stuff, eventually, the operating the clutch or the brake or the gas, that stuff just naturally pushes itself back into your unconscious to where you can focus on other things.
[00:14:16] Jordan Harbinger: And is this going to look creepy? I mean, are we going to end up making too strong eye contact or staring at somebody a bit too much while they're talking? Or has this been something that your students have been able to do easily without being observed in a way that generates questions?
[00:14:30] Chase Hughes: I don't think anybody would look creepy doing it. You're just making natural eye contact. It's enough to observe most of this behavior.
[00:14:37] Jordan Harbinger: All right, so we look for breathing. We look for pupil dilation. How do we train our brain then to see gestures without feeling overwhelmed? Because, of course, that's separate. Or are we just — again, we're having regular conversations and we're just noticing what they're doing with their hands, arms — are we watching their feet? What else are we looking for?
[00:14:52] Chase Hughes: I would say just watch the different parts of the body and how they interact with their environment. Spend a few weeks on that without trying to interpret it and just seeing the behavior for its own sake.
[00:15:03] Jordan Harbinger: So when we start noticing these behaviors, what do we do with them? Are we just mentally cataloging them? Do you encourage people to try to interpret them later after the conversation? What do we do with these once we start to notice the hands, the breathing in the eyes?
[00:15:15] Chase Hughes: What took me a few years to figure out is something you were doing as a kid, you know, keeping a behavior journal, and I would say writing this stuff down. Write down what you're seeing every time you have a chance to do it. Write down the gestures that you're seeing more common in one person that you work with, or this Starbucks barista every time she's there, she touches her chest when she says thank you. And then, once you start learning the interpretation of behavior, she can go back and look through all of these things and see the natural tendencies of the people that you interact with. And those tendencies will lead to some of their personality traits.
[00:15:53] Jordan Harbinger: And how do we know that those tendencies lead to personality traits? How do we start to map these things together?
[00:15:58] Chase Hughes: Seeing the correlation between somebody who is displaying insecure body language, when they talk to you, all up until the point when you ask them about a vacation, they just went on. You can see these little insecurities, you can see these little weaknesses in people just because of these small behaviors that you're able to see.
[00:16:16] Jordan Harbinger: Where does the behavioral table of elements come into this, right? You've got this big periodic table. I'd love to learn, first of all, how you develop this and how we start using this in a practical way.
[00:16:28] Chase Hughes: We develop the behavioral table — obviously, we watched The Bachelor.
[00:16:32] Jordan Harbinger: First step to anything productive is watching reality TV, right?
[00:16:36] Chase Hughes: Absolutely. So how to apply it in regular everyday life can be a little bit tricky, and I think you will need to carry it around. We had a wallet card that we give to our students, the government clients and some law enforcement students, who carry that around and use it in the field as one, as a training tool and two, as an analysis tool. So a partner standing back watching his partner do a field interrogation or just interviewing somebody on the side of the road after an accident happened or something like that. So I would say using this as a training tool and using it as a reference are equally important. And the one that we have for download on the site, you can just hover over any of the elements on the table and it has a huge description that pops up — the four different types of ways you can put your hands in your pockets or the different types of shoulder shrugs or breathing speed. So it'll give you all the information right there.
[00:17:32] Jordan Harbinger: And then we have to memorize this thing.
[00:17:34] Chase Hughes: I still haven't memorized the whole thing. We use it as a reference tool. So after an interaction has taken place, you can go back there and look at the behavior because the behavioral tables laid out where the top of the heads on the top, the feet are on the bottom, and the out stuff that happens outside of our body is on the bottom two rows. So that would be like a post-interview analysis or an after-the-game wrap-up.
[00:17:58] Jordan Harbinger: That's super useful. First of all, it makes way more sense why you organized the table in the way that you did. At first, I thought, why is this not an alphabetical order? You're driving me crazy. But now that it's sort of geographically located for the body, the arms are on the outside and things like that, I guess, and then outside the chart where the radioactive elements go on a regular periodic table or things that happen outside the body. Perfect. Okay.
[00:18:20] This is good news because if we don't have to memorize this because we're using it as a post-game wrap-up type of thing, that means we never actually have to worry about this. The skill that we're actually training is observing eyes, feet, hands, breathing, and a couple of other things, shoulders and things like that. Once we have that down—
[00:18:40] Chase Hughes: Right.
[00:18:40] Jordan Harbinger: —then we can journal that stuff, even make mental notes of it, and then write them down after, we can decode an interaction a month later if we really need to.
[00:18:47] Chase Hughes: Absolutely. Yes.
[00:18:48] Jordan Harbinger: That makes this entire endeavor. A lot easier because I think a lot of folks think, "I've got to read this body language in real time, come to an interpretation in the moment, use that in combination with environmental context, and then have some sort of accurate conclusion at the end by the time they're done talking," and that's not really what we're doing here.
[00:19:07] Chase Hughes: And the more you do these wrap-ups, like the post-game wrap-up, the better you will get overtime at reading it in the moment. And you have to continually do this to force that awareness, force the unconscious competence on yourself.
[00:19:20] Jordan Harbinger: So how do we test ourselves and see if we're doing this right, because that's the problem, right? We can always, we can observe tons of behavior. We could take a thousand pages of journal entries. How do we check and see whether or not we're even close to being accurate?
[00:19:34] Chase Hughes: You can use the behavioral table as a test as well. You can ask whether or not you saw these gestures. Click on it, see the description of it, make sure you saw that and you interpreted it correctly. So this is a grading tool as well. So we wanted it to be a one-page document of everything that could possibly happen with body language.
[00:19:52] Jordan Harbinger: Can you explain how that checking, that testing works? Because I'm a little unclear on that. How would I use the table to decide whether or not things I'm observing are correct?
[00:20:02] Chase Hughes: So let's say you saw a conversation, or even if you're watching YouTube and say you watched Conan O'Brien interview somebody and you saw someone cross their legs and you made an estimation about it. They crossed their arms, they touched their face, like, say they scratched their nose. And they were picking lint off of their shirt towards the end of the interview. So as long as you identified all of those, and if you want to test yourself on the knowledge of them, that's where you would check up on the behavioral table and watch it again and see if you missed anything.
[00:20:36] Jordan Harbinger: You are listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Chase Hughes. We'll be right back.
[00:20:41] This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help online therapy. The holidays are supposed to be the most wonderful time of the year, right? Greeting cards are filled with words like cheer and joy and merry and happy for a lot of people, though this is more like the holiday blues, and I totally get that. Having someone to talk about how you're feeling and what you can do about it, it's really a gift you can give yourself or someone you know that might be going through a little bit of holiday blues. Even if you're not experiencing any specific mental health conditions or serious problems, mental health counseling can be a useful tool to improve your communication skills, reduce stress, set healthy boundaries, deal with trauma, all that. Better Help online therapy is really a great option. You can access mental healthcare from the comfort of your own home without worrying about office visits. And plus, if you have a hectic schedule, online counseling gives you a plethora of options.
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[00:23:49] Now back to Chase Hughes.
[00:23:52] Okay, so once we get those behaviors together, we might see something like — well, how do we know, "Okay, this person is nervous, or this person has a certain set of emotions," or is that not what the periodic table is about?
[00:24:04] Chase Hughes: Yes, the periodic table will measure uncertainty and nervousness and tension. So the further you go to the right of that behavioral table, the more likely it is to be stress or deception. So it's top of the body to the bottom on the geographic location on the table, and left to right is least stressed to most stressed or most deceptive.
[00:24:26] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And just for those of you following along at home, you can listen to this interview. You don't have to worry about memorizing where these are on the table because when you play this show again and the table is in front of you, they're color coded and like you said, it is left to right. It works in many ways, like an actual periodic table of elements works in that the higher stress elements are towards the right and shaded in orange/red. Correct?
[00:24:51] Chase Hughes: Yes, absolutely.
[00:24:52] Jordan Harbinger: Very convenient. Cool. So we can watch YouTube, we can get these behaviors down. So we can't really tell if somebody then is lying to us directly, right? Or lying to Conan in this case.
[00:25:02] Chase Hughes: I would say that if you use the behavioral table to try to detect deception, that your odds will be much better than a polygraph. And a polygraph is only about a coin toss away from being right or wrong either way. And the behavioral table uses likelihood of deception indicators and groups them together. So if you have a score that's above a certain number, you can pretty much reasonably guess that somebody is being deceptive.
[00:25:30] Jordan Harbinger: We're looking at lie detection here. It's really, really hard to do. A lot of people watch shows like Lie to Me and think they can do it, which is ridiculous. We have people getting certified in micro expressions who then think they can do this. We have Harvard studies that are being misquoted where people think, "Oh, maybe if I learn this I can do this." Are we able to use the behavioral table and have a better chance of deciding whether or not someone is telling the truth? Because as you mentioned in your work and as every accurate truth-teller will tell us that you can never decide with certainty based on nonverbal communication, whether or not someone's telling the truth. But what are we doing here? What are the odds then look like when we get good at this type of behavior observation, and use the table to decode it?
[00:26:11] Chase Hughes: Since the deception indicators are on the far right side of the table, those are rated as a deception likelihood of 4.0. So when you reach a 12 or higher for a cluster of gestures, so during the time that someone is answering a question, basically, you can reasonably assume that the person is being deceptive or if you're an interrogator, that you need to dig a little deeper.
[00:26:35] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.
[00:26:36] Chase Hughes: And it's more accurate than a polygraph, which is just about as accurate as a coin toss.
[00:26:41] Jordan Harbinger: That's a little scary because I think people normally assume that polygraph tests are — well, this is how you tell if someone's lying, you hook them up to an EKG meter and if they're lying, that little pencil thing goes out of control. The end.
[00:26:54] Chase Hughes: I'm still flabbergasted that the government still uses those to vet employees, and they're actually, if you read some of the research on them, they're biased against people who are telling the truth. And most people fail polygraphs because they say too much, not because the machine measured deception.
[00:27:11] Jordan Harbinger: And that's bad news because people, of course, who want to cooperate oftentimes are the ones that are doing most of the talking and the KG ones, the ones that have something to hide, are the ones that pass.
[00:27:20] Chase Hughes: Right. And then the most dangerous time and during a polygraph examination is when they're taking the machine off and the guy tells you the interview's over and you think the polygraph is the lie detector. And then, the guy keeps asking you a few more questions as he's unstrapping the machine from you and the machine's turned off. That's where a lot of people fail.
[00:27:39] Jordan Harbinger: Because that's where the actual polygrapher, if that's the proper term, is still running the test himself. It's just that he's done using the machine.
[00:27:48] Chase Hughes: Yes. So the interview is continuing and he'll ask you a few follow-up questions like, "Yeah, when we talked about your trip to the liquor store last Thursday, the machine had something funny on there. I can't go back and look at it right now, but what was up with that?" And then those are the follow-up, post-interview follow-up questions that will really nail you.
[00:28:05] Jordan Harbinger: Huh, well, that's strange and seems to prove the assertion that the machine is not really doing the heavy lifting there, which is bad news. You mentioned pre-show that watching Conan is a great way to see actual stress signals without having to interrogate someone. Because, in around 50 percent of his guests, he manages to get around 15 to 22 stress signals. Why is that the case?
[00:28:28] Chase Hughes: I think Conan has the ability to elicit those responses out of the people that come on the show. The way he interviews people and the way he speaks to people produces some of that anxiety behavior on the right side of the behavioral table.
[00:28:44] Jordan Harbinger: Why do you think that is? Because he's super tall, possibly? Or is there something else going on here?
[00:28:48] Chase Hughes: He has a strong, authoritative style of speaking, and he is comfortable making prolonged eye contact and asking strange questions that other talk show hosts would probably feel, might be inappropriate. So he tends to place people in those situations to really throw them off guard. And when he does try to throw his guests off guard, they usually exhibit some of those behaviors on the far right side of the behavior table. And those aren't necessarily deception indicators. That's just stress. There's no behavior for deception. There's no micro expression for deception. So all of those things are absolutely just stress. You're measuring clusters of stress and that's how people get closer to deception. But for people training to spot deception indicators and stress, Conan is one of the best places to start. He's got a knack for producing those anxiety behaviors in celebrities.
[00:29:41] Jordan Harbinger: And that's obviously an excellent way to work this because if a celebrity, somebody who's maybe won a nice Golden Globe for acting cool under fire, can't do it on live TV, they're not going to edit that out. They're not going to do another take. These are, in many ways, going to be as close as you can get to perfect video of real people in a stressful situation that you can repeat and replay as many times as you want. And in every, well, virtually every case, this person is not a criminal. They're just under stress because of the environment and the person that they're interacting with.
[00:30:15] Chase Hughes: Absolutely. Very well said.
[00:30:17] Jordan Harbinger: You mentioned that there's no signal for deception itself only signals for stress. Why is it that looking for truth signals is the best way to spot deception? First of all, what are truth signals and how do we use this to spot deception if all we can really do is spot stress?
[00:30:34] Chase Hughes: Good question. I think looking for truth signals and training your brain to see truth signals, which are someone who is open, who is relaxed and comfortable, basically just vulnerable body language. So spotting somebody who's just communicating really authentically is a good example of truth signals. And training your brain to look for those truth signals means that when you see deception, it's going to stand out much more. So you're training your unconscious to see truth signals and you're looking for truth signals and spending lots of time on that when you actually experience deception, which is going to be often, it will stand out. And once you start seeing deception, once you study what deception really is and how to read it on the table, you'll notice that almost everybody you know will lie to you.
[00:31:24] Jordan Harbinger: Can you narrate and paint us a picture of an example of this happening in conversation? Doesn't have to be a real example. I realize a lot of the military and intelligence stuff you do is on lockdown, but can you narrate a hypothetical in which you are looking for a truth signal? You find it and then you see something different happen that indicates deception.
[00:31:45] Chase Hughes: When you are looking for a truth signal — let's give an example here, if you are asking someone a question, where they were on such and such night, and you would expect someone to open their palms, which is a display of sincerity, but they touch their face as soon as they start talking again. So usually, almost all the time, facial touching is a sign of nervousness. And you looking for truth signals, which would be open palms, hands down on the table, just natural body movements. Seeing the person touch their faces automatically going to set off an alarm.
[00:32:20] Jordan Harbinger: We're looking for something that we're expecting versus thinking, "Okay, whatever happens now, it's got to match." Because if we're looking for deception, that could be any behavior that isn't the one or two that should naturally follow an authentic answer. Is that what you're telling me right now?
[00:32:35] Chase Hughes: Absolutely.
[00:32:36] Jordan Harbinger: So if we're thinking, "Oh, where were you last night?" And they start talking and their palms are open and they're narrating a story about how they went to Jack in the Box and then they came home and went to sleep. It looks normal, it looks authentic. They've got a couple of readily readable behaviors — palms up, their arms are uncrossed, they've got a little bit of a head tilt or something like that. I can't remember the exact behaviors you listed in the table here — versus, "Hmm, they crossed their arms and then they touched their chin and they're stroking their chin like they can't remember. And then they're scratching their nose," and then they tell you that they went to Starbucks and had a late night coffee and stayed up all night because of the caffeine. You're thinking that's weird. What a weird set of behaviors that normally wouldn't follow an obvious nonchalant story about what they ate for dinner. So it's easier to spot those since there are fewer truth signals that would match that behavior.
[00:33:24] Chase Hughes: Yes.
[00:33:24] Jordan Harbinger: When you're talking about Conan, you mentioned the authoritative voice. We talked before the show and you'd mentioned that a demonstration or proof of authority that matters more than influence skills every time. What does that mean? That seems like a huge takeaway, potentially.
[00:33:40] Chase Hughes: I think it is. When we were writing The Ellipsis Manual, we wrote that book to be the most dangerous. I wanted to have like a surgical manual of persuasion and we went from just talking somebody into doing something for you to actual word-for-word script on how to create a Manchurian Candidate. And doing all of this like Black Ops type of persuasion stuff, we discovered that the authority a person has, the social or perceived authority a person has is more important than the skill level they have. And this was proven in a study done by Stanley Milgram, who's a professor at Yale. Are you familiar with it?
[00:34:24] Jordan Harbinger: I am not. I'm curious though, before we get into that, what do you mean that skills don't trump authority? Are we talking about the ability to persuade someone using little techniques and tactics is dwarfed by the results when somebody just has a higher level of authority?
[00:34:40] Chase Hughes: Yes.
[00:34:41] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.
[00:34:41] Chase Hughes: So the Milgram Study was done at Yale, and it's been repeated, I think hundreds of times. And they have a volunteer who volunteers for this experiment on learning, and he goes in there and he has this machine that's hooked up to a guy in the other room, and it's got electrodes on him. They walk this guy in there and they say, "Oh, this guy's going to be learning. He's another volunteer. He's got these electrodes all over him. That's going to shock him. You're going to be delivering shocks every time he gets the answer wrong." They walk the volunteer back into the other room, sit him down at this machine. It's got all these switches from left to right on it, and it goes from like zero volts all the way to XXX.
[00:35:24] So there's like 50 switches on this machine, and every time this guy keeps getting these words wrong, this guy who is running the experiment, standing behind him in a lab coat and a clipboard says, "You need to shock him. Deliver 120 volts. Deliver 200 volts." So it keeps just ramping it up and the guy in the other room getting shocked is screaming for his life saying, "I want to quit. I'm done. Let me out of here. I don't want to participate anymore. I have a heart problem," all of this just non-stop protesting going on from the other room and these volunteers sitting, at a rate of 80 percent, would shock the other person to the point of death.
[00:36:06] Jordan Harbinger: Yikes.
[00:36:06] Chase Hughes: To where the banging on the wall, the yelling, the begging for help, completely stop, and they're shocking him over and over again. Continuing to shock him all because a guy in a lab coat with no name tag, used phrases like, "It's important that you continue. The experiment requires that you continue." Just phrases like that. 80 percent of people shocked another human being to death because a guy in a lab coat told him to and the guy in the other room wasn't getting shocked.
[00:36:34] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Of course, he's an actor in the study.
[00:36:36] Chase Hughes: Yes. So the only person that was a volunteer for the experiment was the person delivering the shocks.
[00:36:42] Jordan Harbinger: That must have been pretty traumatizing for the people in that study after the fact, knowing that they essentially would — had that been real, they would've murdered that person.
[00:36:50] Chase Hughes: Absolutely. After the experiment was over, there were several people that filed official complaints against Dr. Milgram saying that he caused post-traumatic stress disorder, what we would call that today anyway. And the experiment was repeated in urban areas outside of a college environment because some of the people that were detractors said, "These people knew that they were safe. They were in a lab environment. It was taking place on a campus, so they knew nobody could really get hurt." So they repeated the study in several different settings to eliminate all of the negative feedback that they got from the experiment.
[00:37:27] And several other studies have been done on authority, like the crosswalk study. A guy wearing blue jeans and a T-shirt who breaks the crosswalk illegally and starts walking across the street. A couple of people will follow him, but a guy wearing a suit and tie the same guy wearing a suit and tie breaking crosswalk and going across the street increases the likelihood by 66 percent of the people will break the crosswalk with him and go across the street.
[00:37:51] Jordan Harbinger: Because of the perceived authority of somebody wearing a suit versus jeans, and in the Milgram study, because of the perceived authority of the person wearing a lab coat/plastic badge, correct?
[00:38:00] Chase Hughes: Yes.
[00:38:01] Jordan Harbinger: So are there different types of authority? I mean, clearly this one is — in the Milgram Study, it sounds like some of that was probably contextual. They're in a lab, in a university, that was the negative feedback and part of it, and some of it has to do with the appearance of the person who's in authority. Are there other types of factors involved that we can look at?
[00:38:20] Chase Hughes: There are. They chose the guys with the lab coats. They chose guys that were really hygienic. They were good-looking guys. They looked like they were professional doctors. They didn't wear name tags that said doctor, it was just a gray lab coat is what they used. The takeaway from that, that I think was lost on a lot of people is that a man wearing a lab coat can convince a stranger to commit murder in less than 30 minutes without any skills. No hypnosis, no persuasion training — nothing, just authority.
[00:38:55] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So the obvious follow on question is how do we hack this? Do I need to carry a lab coat in my backpack? Do I have to have one steamed and hanging in my car? Where do we go with this that we can use that for good? And then, of course, after that, I want to know what you're afraid of people using this to do.
[00:39:13] Chase Hughes: Well, when we were writing the book, the authority chapter was originally just going to be something small that we added in there, and we discovered how powerful it was. And some of the people that were reading it said that it changed them. So we distilled authority down into five qualities. And this kind of goes back to pick up in that when I first started learning pick-up tricks and tactics, it was all ways to fake or pretend like you were an actual man, like you had your stuff together. We distilled these down into five qualities, which are dominance, discipline, leadership, gratitude, and fun.
[00:39:55] And by dominance, I don't mean domineering. I mean someone who's just got their stuff together. And it's amazing how many people, when we talk about discipline, email me and say, "Oh, I want to learn some of these psychological manipulation tactics or whatever," and just interviewing this guy over Skype or over the phone. I can tell like he doesn't even make his bed in the morning. He's probably way behind on bills, he's probably got a pile of dishes in his sinks. Just that the guy is kind of a slob, can't take care of himself, but he wants to take control of another human being. And that goes back to just, if you can't manage yourself, it will leak out. Your persuasion skills can be perfect, your confidence can be perfect. But if you have issues with any of those five qualities, it will leak out somehow in your body language. The example of that is when a woman is talking to somebody and everything looks like it's going right, and she says, "Something just doesn't feel right, something feels off." So that is our nonverbal leakage of not mastering some of one of those qualities or lacking in one of those.
[00:41:06] Jordan Harbinger: This is The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Chase Hughes. We'll be right back.
[00:41:11] This episode is sponsored in part by HVMN. You've heard the buzz elsewhere, probably even on the show about ketones supplements and how they can boost your workouts and help your body use fatty acids for fuel. I take a shot of HVMN's Ketone-IQ supplement before my morning workout. Focused energy, it's kind of like feeling in the zone without anxiety or jittery coffee kind of stuff. And Ketone-IQ comes in portable, convenient shots, which are great for on-the-go cycling, long runs, running meeting to meeting, long drives, especially. The taste is a little bit bitter. A lot of my elite athlete friends — we always kind of joke about how bad this taste, but they all use it. They use it like a little bit of a weapon when they really need to be focused. It really does create that focus. And also what I like about it is I used to get super hungry during the end of a workout. It was very weird. Or I'd get a crash and Ketone-IQ really levels that out.
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[00:43:35] Now for the rest of my conversation with Chase Hughes.
[00:43:39] Your mindsets dictate your behaviors, which dictate your results. And what that essentially means is, look, you can try to fake it until you make it, and you can have all this cool dominant guy body language, and you can have all the clever lines that people like to teach on the Internet, but it doesn't really matter because if you don't have your internal state together, that whole blink concept, that Malcolm Gladwell concept, is going to bite you in the butt because people who are evolved to see this, in other words, humans, in general, who are evolved to see this, especially the fairer sex, are going to sense that something is not quite right. And we don't even have to identify what that particular nonverbal communication is and why it's coming through. There's always going to be some leakage. Our bodies are terrible liars. And so it really does pay instead to have the mindset together instead.
[00:44:30] And so when you're looking at authority and things like that, a lot of guys who are trying to pick up women are just hacking authority. And so it doesn't work for relationships and it doesn't work if people are really paying attention to the signals that are coming out. Even when somebody is highly skilled at doing this, somebody who's paying attention and not just being willfully blind, they're going to pick up some leakage and that's going to be the red flag that spoils the batch.
[00:44:54] Chase Hughes: Brilliant. And that's it. Like, if you have everything memorized, all these techniques memorized and you can't make your bed, you can't pay your bills on time, it's not going to happen for you. You've really got to take control over yourself first and be live a life of self-discipline. And that's one of the things that just shines through all of your nonverbal communication, especially in a one-on-one situation. When you're in a one-on-one conversation and you have that maturity and groundedness and self-discipline, it really shows through automatically without talking about it, without discussing it, it's a feeling that the other person gets.
[00:45:31] Jordan Harbinger: So if we can hack authority for getting people to murder someone else in a lab, and men everywhere are trying to hack authority for getting women into bed, how do we hack this for something good for the good of humanity?
[00:45:43] Chase Hughes: So when you do hack authority, this is managing your life and planning your life and living a life of self-discipline. Hacking authority means that you are mastering your environment and hacking it for good means that you are leaving every person better than you found them. And that when you do the authority hacking, whether it's through what you wear or increasing your level of hygiene, your level of physical fitness, all of these are methods to start hacking authority and developing your sense of working up these five qualities — the dominance, discipline, leadership, gratitude, and fun — working up those five qualities is the number one way to hack authority. So with the authority hacking, one of the biggest things that Milgram discovered was called an agentic shift. That when a person is in the presence of somebody in authority, or somebody with perceived authority, social authority, we make a shift to become an agent doing the work of another person. So those people who were shocking the person in the other room underwent an agentic shift in the presence of that authority figure, the guy in the lab coat. So when this agentic shift happens, we expose the person we're speaking to, or the person who's experiencing it, is basically writes off whatever they do as in being an agency for the person that they're speaking with.
[00:47:08] Jordan Harbinger: Right. I was just following orders, right? Is how that sounds in practice?
[00:47:12] Chase Hughes: Yes. And that just following orders thing was one of the reasons they ran the experiment. Stanley Milgram's parents were in a prison camp and once this agentic shift is made, the psychological loopholes start to open up as wide as they can possibly be. So in the presence of a person that has this authority, we will obey and we will consider it to be either their idea or it's our idea, but we're doing it for the good of the other person.
[00:47:41] Jordan Harbinger: That's incredibly powerful. Of course, we can use this for habit change and things like that, and I was going to dive down that rabbit hole, but how are people using authority or potentially going to use authority to create negative outcomes for us here in the United States, for example, or the western world, and how can we defend against that type of thing? For example, if I find myself talking with somebody in a lab coat, turning up the electrical shocks on some poor person, is there anything I can do to defend myself against that? Or in the moment, am I already too late?
[00:48:12] Chase Hughes: I think in the moment if you find yourself facing any type of authority that's making you do that. The only thing that can really get you out of that is that mindfulness and self-awareness of what you are doing at all times, and I think that is less than five percent of the population who has the ability to do that. A hundred percent of us would say, "I would never shock another person to death," but 80 percent of us would. And I think that's the scary part, that we think we have a firewall. We think we have some virus protection in our own mind, and we don't realize how easy it is for us to be hacked, our behavior to be hacked, our actions.
[00:48:53] Jordan Harbinger: So is there nothing we can do? And all we can do is hope we're part of the five percent of the population that is mindful enough to do this or are there things we can do to inoculate ourselves against that type of influence?
[00:49:03] Chase Hughes: To inoculate yourself, you have to really learn what's going on. You'll be able to spot some of these methods if they're being used on you, there's going to be a point where you make a decision, like a point of no return, and you feel that agentic state starting to shift over, but you have to be aware of that.
[00:49:21] Jordan Harbinger: So the time to counteract this theoretically is going to be when we start to feel the a agentic shift kick in, and that we're doing things not because we want to, but because somebody else has power over us. The earliest moment we recognize this, that's the time that we would what? Try to get away from that particular person because it seems like, I guess we could look at our own behavior and try to decipher whether or not it's something we actually want to do. But if authority really does have that power over us, then it seems like what we should do is get away physically from that authority.
[00:49:55] Chase Hughes: That would be one of the best ways to do it. It's very hard for us to resist as just all human beings, especially when that authority starts taking place or taking hold. Leaving is definitely the best way to do it.
[00:50:07] Jordan Harbinger: We've spoken a lot about nonverbal communication, sort of how we started the show. I definitely want to get a practical from you. The posture exercise sounds great because it does prove not only that body language shows what's going on inside, it actually can create what is going on inside as well.
[00:50:22] Chase Hughes: Absolutely. And I think the reason we study body language is the reverse of that. So if you do move your body, it can create an emotion on the inside, just like we displayed on the outside when we're feeling an emotion. All right, so a great exercise to prove this to yourself is to slouch your posture down as much as you can. So like try to exhibit the physical characteristics of a person who's just downtrodden. He has no friends. People are talking crap about him in social media, just the like the worst, most poor body language you can possibly exhibit. And while you're holding that without moving a muscle, try to feel confident at the same time, it's almost impossible to do. So moving you physically will create an internal emotion.
[00:51:09] The other part of the posture exercise is to prove to you that if you can talk someone into doing something, you can control their emotions based on their body. So if I can talk to you, I say, "Jordan, I've read this interesting article about how successful people tend to breathe into their stomachs more than their chest." I'm forcing the body language of comfort on you and forcing you to be more comfortable.
[00:51:32] Jordan Harbinger: Can you clarify that? I'm not sure I follow that.
[00:51:34] Chase Hughes: Sure. So if I can get you to start exhibiting different body language, I can get you to experience a different emotional state. So if I get you to match and mirror me and I start sitting up, or I start slowing my breathing down, I can force your body and I say force with big quotes around it, I can get you to start coalescing with mine.
[00:51:54] Jordan Harbinger: Let me just clarify this. So it sounds like what you're saying is the reason you're telling somebody that the body language of success or that successful people breathe through their stomach and not through their chest is because you know that everybody else wants to be successful. So that statement will then convince me or suggest to me that I should breathe through my stomach instead of through my chest, which makes me more relaxed, which is the actual outcome that you're going for. So you're subtly suggesting to me, instead of saying, "Breathe through your stomach and relax," you're saying, "Hey, by the way, this quality that I know you want involves you taking this action physically," but then by taking that action physically, you're getting me to do something else that you want that you haven't stated.
[00:52:32] Chase Hughes: Yes.
[00:52:32] Jordan Harbinger: Got it. That makes sense. And so you're doing this subtly during interrogations, during conversations to get people to take on a certain physicality so that you can get them to do other things and become more compliant. Correct?
[00:52:44] Chase Hughes: Yes. So you start processing them into going into comfort or getting more relaxed and you get more compliance.
[00:52:51] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Okay. This makes perfect sense. So one of the things I used to do is, for example, if someone's arms are crossed and we're talking, say we're in a negotiating situation, as attorneys are in business, if they've got their arms crossed, I may do something where I hand them a drink and I slide that across the table. Usually, people will not just sit there with a drink in front of them and their arms crossed, they'll reach out and get it. And when you have somebody who reaches out to get it, they oftentimes will keep their hand there. And if you're in a dating situation, you can have a glass, like a martini glass, which looks unstable and you can slide it across from them or you can keep it, sliding away from them as well so that they have to uncross their arms to bring it back into the proximity that they would need for something like their drink. Because people don't want their drink to be too far outside their psychological space. So to make that a little bit more clear, if you're, say out with friends at night and you're talking with somebody and they close off, you may slide their drink further away from them, causing them to uncross their arms and hold onto their drink, which uncross their arms. That's sort of the similar situation where you tell somebody, "Hey, successful people do this," and then they start to emulate that behavior, only I'm doing it a little bit more brute force method it sounds like.
[00:54:01] Chase Hughes: That's terrific. And just mentioning something like when you're complaining about somebody saying they never look at people when they speak, or he always has his shoulders up and he's so rigid, complaining about another person would force the same kind of body language behaviors.
[00:54:15] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So if you want to get your kids to stop slouching or a friend or a significant other to stop slouching, you might say something like, "Yeah, you know what? One of my pet peeves I just realized is when people just cannot stand up straight," and you don't have to be looking at them to do that. It might be a little too on the nose. You could even say this to them over the phone and you can almost hear them straighten up on the other end and say, "Yeah, that drives me crazy as well." And you could absolutely influence someone's physicality based on that. Now, whether or not that sticks is irrelevant, of course, because we're not trying to change their habit, we're just trying to change their physicality in the moment so that we can elicit a certain mindset, right?
[00:54:50] Chase Hughes: Yes.
[00:54:50] Jordan Harbinger: Perfect. Man, there's so much here that I want to wrap with the x-ray vision for a day exercise. Can you guide us through that?
[00:54:59] Chase Hughes: Sure. The x-ray question is just a simple question that we teach to the students as they're going through the first part of their training phase. And it's basically designed to expose the people around you. And the question you asked is what do their friends say to them that makes them feel good or cool? What makes them feel significant in the world? And finally, where are they on the needs map? And the human needs map is something that we use for profiling other people. And the basic human needs we have on there are — appreciation, approval, acceptance, power, admiration, pity, and intelligence.
[00:55:34] Jordan Harbinger: So how do we do this exactly? We're looking at where people need attention from others, when they do things to gain appreciation. Can you give us an example of this in action so that people know exactly what they're looking for?
[00:55:46] Chase Hughes: Whenever you hear a conversation, you can hear this almost at any point if you were to inject yourself in someone else's conversation. When you're listening to someone talk, they will start revealing these needs. If they talk about, "Hey, I just got this, this, and this for my birthday," or, "I just graduated from this MMA fighting school," or, "Hey, I came down and I folded the laundry for you." So what do they need to be appreciated for? Or what do they need to feel acceptance to? So these will reveal themselves. All you have to do is change the way that you start listening to how people speak, and you'll start to hear all kinds of human needs in there. And those needs are tremendous lever points that you can use in interaction. And that's what we detailed in The Ellipsis Manual, how to do all this and how to identify the fears and weaknesses based on what needs a person has. And this is by no means an academic text on human needs. These are just the ones that are most easily to spot and the easiest to use in a conversation.
[00:56:44] Jordan Harbinger: Can you give us an example of using this in our daily lives that we can apply right after we hear this?
[00:56:49] Chase Hughes: Absolutely. If you hear a person tell you four or five things where they're seeking appreciation from you, so they did a favor for you. They are offering to do a favor for you or something to that effect. So anytime, a person is seeking appreciation, you can use that appreciation factor to give them appreciation or approval or acceptance, whatever you're hearing from them. Use the appreciation and give them appreciation the next time right before you ask them to do something for you.
[00:57:20] Jordan Harbinger: So in practice, that would look like what?
[00:57:23] Chase Hughes: In practice, that would look like, "Hey, you have really been there for me like seven times in a row. I really appreciate everything you've been doing. I have a favorite ask, if you wouldn't mind." So that would be for a person that is appreciation motivated.
[00:57:35] Jordan Harbinger: Right. It's not just for everybody. Because somebody might be like, "Yeah, you're right, I do way too much for you." But if they're appreciation motivated, then that's really what they're going for, right? So they'll do something in order to get more of it.
[00:57:47] Chase Hughes: Yes. And the approval people would operate a little bit different.
[00:57:50] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. Can you give an example of the approval people? How do we detect an approval-seeking person and how do we use that, for example, to go a little dark side here at the end of the show?
[00:58:00] Chase Hughes: Approval-seeking people tend to brag a little bit and they will look at you anytime they say something positive about themselves. So right after they say something positive, they'll look at you to make sure there's an effect, like a nonverbal effect. With people that seek approval, you can hear that immediately when they start doing that. And the thing that will tell you that they are the approval-seeking people is that look. You'll get the look right after they say it. And anytime you want to use this on the person who seeks approval, obviously, the thing that they fear the most is being rejected.
[00:58:33] Jordan Harbinger: Can you give us an actual example of this in practice? The actual phrasing that we might be hearing, the actual phrasing we might give in return.
[00:58:41] Chase Hughes: For approval-seeking people, the way that you might want to ask for a favor is, "Hey Jordan, I was talking to Steven and Lindsey, and they're extremely excited to have you on the team. They said you're one of the best people ever out here, and I wanted to ask you a favor, if that's all right with." So you're validating that socially they are being approved by a group of people.
[00:59:01] Jordan Harbinger: How do we know that they're approval seeking in the first place?
[00:59:04] Chase Hughes: That would be based on any time you have a conversation with them and you hear them talking about themselves and making that eye contact right after they say something positive about themselves.
[00:59:13] Jordan Harbinger: So can you give us an example of them saying something positive about themselves and then looking at us and then us using that to our advantage?
[00:59:20] Chase Hughes: So if somebody says, "Hey, Jordan, you know, I just graduated from the MMA school just right down the road," and then he makes a little bit of eye contact right after he says it. That is bar none, absolutely an approval-seeking person. and the way to do that, you could if, especially if that's it, you could validate them by saying, talking about their accomplishments right before you ask them for a favor.
[00:59:41] Jordan Harbinger: So we can constantly be on the lookout for people's motivators by listening to the way that they talk both about themselves or especially about themselves. What other sort of examples can we use to examine what people's motivators are? If we know that that's approval seeking, what are the other modes of behavior and what are the phrases these people might be using?
[01:00:00] Chase Hughes: Well, there's several. There's acceptance, and these people who drive through acceptance have a need to be accepted by a group or just one person. And especially if you have the authority, you'll create acceptance-seeking people just by your own behavior. So that's not the person's regular MO. The rest of the needs — like the intelligence, power, admiration — those are people who need to be seen as intelligent, they don't need to be intelligent. And that's one of the biggest mistakes that I think leaders make now, is that all of this business about identifying the strengths of your employees is about identifying what they do well, how well the mechanism performs a task — and instead of trying to figure out what a person's good at, try to figure out what they want to be seen as being good at, and you'll get 10 times the results.
[01:00:49] Jordan Harbinger: All right. Well, Chase, thank you so much. There's so much here. Each little area that we've touched on today is a whole show, right? The approval-seeking behavior, finding out people's motivators, using motivators to get results, examining nonverbal communication, figuring out which nonverbal communication is true and what it means in concert with the environment — there's just so much here. And I think that if people are wondering, "Oh my gosh, what do I do with this now?" Examining people's behavior, figuring out how to make yourself more observant, worry about utilizing these concepts later on. But for now, the big takeaway is learn what you can absorb just from paying attention to the right channels. And I think that will make people much more effective than they were before they hit play on this episode. So Chase, thank you very much for your time.
[01:01:39] Now I've got some thoughts in this episode, but before we get into that, here's what you should check out next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.
[01:01:47] Chris Voss: Chase Manhattan Bank robbery, I'm the second negotiator on the phone. Hugh McGowan is the commander of the NYPD team. He puts me on the phone. He takes this guy off. He says, "You're up, you're next. This is what I want you to do. You're just going to take over the phone and say, 'You're talking to me,' now and we're going to do it really abruptly." My point is to get a hostage out, which is what a hostage negotiator is supposed to do.
[01:02:06] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[01:02:07] Chris Voss: And somebody hands me a note and says, "Ask him if he wants to come out." That was somebody that was listening, my friend Jamie, Jamie Sedano. Jamie's sitting there at something in Jamie's instincts is telling him that this guy wants to come out more than anything else. He just hears it and he writes, "Asks him if he wants to come out." I see a note pop in front of my face. So I go, "Do you want to come out?" And there's long silence on the other end of the line and the guy says, "I don't know how I do that." Which is a great big giant, yes.
[01:02:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[01:02:40] Chris Voss: Everybody goes like, "Holy cow, okay, get him out of there." I'm talking, I'm talking, I'm talking. Again probably about, I don't know, maybe half an hour later another note comes in my hand. I don't know where it's from. As it turns out it's from Jamie again. And the note says, "Tell him you meet him outside." And I say to him, "How about this? I'm not going to meet you out in front of the bank." And he goes, "Yeah, I'm ready to end this sh*t." I get out there, I get on the PA, I started talking to him. So I said, "Hi, it's Chris. I'm out here." Standard operating procedure is to barricade the exit from the outside, so a bad guy suddenly doesn't run away. So SWAT has barricaded the bank from the outside, which everyone has forgotten. So I'm trying to talk this guy out the door. We don't know how many bad guys are inside. We don't know how they're going to react. We don't know they're going to start shooting. We don't know what the hell's going to happen. He comes to the door and he can't get out.
[01:03:38] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, god. That was—
[01:03:40] Chris Voss: So he rattles the door. Everybody's like, "Aah!"
[01:03:43] He's nervous, right?
[01:03:44] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, "No crap. I'm trapped in here now."
[01:03:45] Chris Voss: Yeah, And on the opposite, we're going, "Now, what do we do? We forgot to unlock the door.
[01:03:52] And our bad guy is kind of like, "Oh, you going to play games with me, huh?"
[01:04:00] Jordan Harbinger: For more from FBI hostage negotiator Chris Voss, including negotiation and persuasion tips, along with a few crazy stories, check out episode 165 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.
[01:04:13] Big thank you to Chase Hughes. All things Chase will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts in the show notes, videos on YouTube. Advertisers, deals, and discount codes, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I've said it once, but I'll say it again. Please consider supporting those who support this show. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using the same software systems and tiny habits that I use every single day. That's our Six-Minute Networking course, and that course is free over at jordanharbinger.com/course. Teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them in a very non-cringey, non-gross, non-schmoozy way. Many of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to the course. So come join us, you'll be in smart company.
[01:05:01] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My amazing team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Millie Ocampo, Ian Baird, Josh Ballard, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for this show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. If you know somebody who's really into nonverbal communication, human behavior, this is definitely a great episode to share with them. The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.
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