995: Cheating Chap Caught in Child Support Trap | Feedback Friday

995: Cheating Chap Caught in Child Support Trap | Feedback Friday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback. Friday producer, a dude who's been living in a Corona commercial the last few weeks, Gabriel Mizrahi.

[00:00:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Seriously, dude, it was like a screensaver come to life. It was amazing.

[00:00:18] Jordan Harbinger: Brazil does look amazing. Yeah, it looks way to give me major fomo.

Mm-Hmm. You look all fresh and tan and I'm like high. I am a little bit sick again today, guys.

[00:00:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. You're okay man. You sound a little under the weather.

[00:00:29] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, so Jayden, I, I sleep with Jayden, right? I sleep with a 4-year-old and he wants to snuggle, which is priceless actually, so I wouldn't trade it. But, you know, he's, he's in preschool, so he comes home with a new virus every couple weeks and he sniffles just a

[00:00:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Petri dish in your

[00:00:42] Jordan Harbinger: bed.

Just sneeze right in your face at four o'clock in the morning and what are you gonna do? You know, there's nothing, there's nothing you can do about it. And so eventually my immune system has caved after months of him sneezing directly in my face or wiping boogers probably on me or adjacent to me. And that's what happens.

And I hope you listen to this when you're 25, Jayden, and you feel bad about this. No, I'm just kidding. Kidding. So I have like virus

[00:01:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: de

[00:01:06] Jordan Harbinger: jour.

[00:01:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: I like that. You think your son is gonna spend his twenties going through the back catalog of your podcast. Of my wisdom.

[00:01:12] Jordan Harbinger: You know what this remind, it reminds me of, uh, you ever see King of Queens?

[00:01:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-Hmm.

[00:01:16] Jordan Harbinger: No. It's a sitcom with Jerry Stiller and Kevin, uh, James and former show guest, Leah Remini, who was a Scientologist and now speaks out against Scientology. Anyway, that's neither here nor there, Jerry. Still, there's one episode where Jerry Stiller, RIP, he keeps ordering like Indian takeout food and he is like, I.

You are gonna write my mentors and the delivery kid's like, no, here's your chicken loo man. Just leave me alone. And he is like, sit down. Let me tell you about my life. That's what I feel like right now. Assuming that Jayden's gonna spend any time listening to this, that's you and Jayden on your podcast.

Dad. I don't even know how to play a podcast. Those MP threes or whatever you call him, they don't even play on phones, uh, anymore.

[00:01:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: It

[00:01:53] Jordan Harbinger: doesn't

[00:01:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: download automatically

[00:01:55] Jordan Harbinger: to my neural link. That's right. Yeah. There's no visual element. It's so weird. Anyway, I don't know why we're talking about this, because no one else cares on the Jordan Harbinger show, though, which you do care about.

Presumably we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, neuroscientists astronauts, music moguls, and tech luminaries.

On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and mercilessly roast Gabe for his undying commitment to the K bonito lifestyle.

[00:02:33] Jen Harbinger: Mm-Hmm.

[00:02:34] Jordan Harbinger: Speaking of fomo, Gabe, I was thinking a lot while you were away about the difference between fomo, so fear of missing out and ambition.

And it's interesting, I'm not totally sure how to separate the two. So let's say that somebody lives like a nomadic lifestyle and they're bringing their kids to a different country every month and they're homeschooling them and I'm like, oh my god, that looks awesome. Mm-Hmm. And I kind of wanna do it.

But then do I wanna do that because other people are doing something similar and some of it looks nice, right? Do I feel like I, I'm behind 'cause I haven't figured that out? Or do I want something because there's value to it that I actually have another sort of intrinsic motivation to achieve or attain Maybe.

Maybe the traveling nomadic lifestyle thing is in a, isn't a good example, but I'll see somebody who d has like a giant YouTube channel and they have a podcast. Where is our YouTube channel is sort of like hit or miss. Controversial videos do well science stuff, like no one cares somehow on YouTube 'cause the algorithm doesn't pick it up.

And it's really interesting, and I'm like, oh man, I really want that. But it's like, do I care? Right? I don't really think that I do care. I think I just feel lacking, which is totally different than having the ambition to create something. And I also see a lot of unhealthy ambition. I know friends of mine that have serious self-worth issues.

They're brilliant creators, but they basically live to become famous so they can get the approval and appreciation of complete strangers. They're successful in that. But when you peel away those layers, they're totally miserable. And I'm like, this person, I don't even know if they have ambition. Their life is like pure fomo.

But it looks to them like ambition because it's all they have.

[00:04:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Isn't it interesting how many of the things we want are dependent on what other people want? Like so much of what we care about is in reference to what other people seem to care about. And they themselves might not be asking themselves why I care about this in the first place.

[00:04:21] Jordan Harbinger: No. And you know what's weird is it's really easy to do this with material things. So I had a buddy who was driving, I don't know, whatever, like a Toyota Corolla for example, I can't remember now. And he was like, yeah, I'm gonna get a new car soon. I was like, why this car's fine? He is like, ah, I wanna get a BMW.

And I said, why? And he goes, I feel like I'm the only person in the neighborhood that doesn't have one. And I was like, that's the dumbest. Reason that I've ever heard to get a nicer car. You think, and you have no data for this, that your neighbors are judging you because you don't have one, which maybe they are, but also you don't even know those people.

You never talk to them. Who cares? And he was like, oh yeah, that's a really good point. Now we were in our twenties. This was deep back when we were like 25. Right now it's self-evident truth. But we, as we get older and those things become more complex, it's hard to figure it out. Like when you go, oh, I really want a promotion to director, you do.

'cause yes, it comes with a little bit of a salary bump, but every director in your company is absolutely miserable and doesn't do any of the cool work that you're working on right now, they only manage projects at the 30,000 foot level, and they work twice as much. You're making less per hour. For sure.

Do you really want that? And it's like, but all my friends at this company are headed in that direction, and I'll look bad if I stay at this level. You know? It's always something like that. It's a lot easier to rationalize your way into it. But if you tell somebody, if they're talking about a car, they're like, oh, I don't care.

It's just so much easier. The more simple the thing is, like if it's, if it's a possession, you can sort of figure out that you don't need it. But when it's something that has to do with your identity, which possessions often do not. Right. Unless you're really unhealthy. Mm-hmm. It's so much harder. Right, because it's like, am I a director at Apple or am I just an engineer working on the keyboard for the new iPad?

Right. Right, right,

[00:06:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: right. Disentangling those things is so interesting. And there's also a theme on feedback Friday. Like we get letters from people quite often saying, I really want this thing, but then I'm riddled with conflict and I have all this fear and I don't really know how to do it, and I don't know whether I deserve it or whether, but also I'm happy.

And it's like, well, okay, let's take a step back. Why do you want this in the first place? That's a tough question.

[00:06:21] Jordan Harbinger: It's very difficult. So anyway, I haven't solved this. I'm just sharing this because I think a lot of people probably feel the same way. It's a constant battle for me to be like, yeah, I'm not trying to build a big social media presence.

Although there are exceptions to that, because I don't really care about that. And I have to just become okay with that. And then other people are like, are you sure? 'cause so-and-so's doing that, and it's like, oh man, that, that does look pretty cool. However, I kinda have to make some important choices about what I'm gonna leave behind, and I'm just not willing to do that.

Gabe, tell me a little bit about Brazil because it looked amazing.

[00:06:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Speaking of FOMO versus ambition,

[00:06:52] Jordan Harbinger: right? Exactly. A place I would like to go, but not, not enough to actually go there, but

[00:06:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: not really. Yeah, it was amazing, man. God, dude, I have so many stories to tell you. I, we don't have enough time.

Mm-Hmm. To get into all of the things, I, I was there for a few weeks and I was there with a couple friends and we rented this way too small house in the jungle, basically in this really small town that was, I don't know, like two or three hours away from the capital of Baia, the state in the northeast that we were in.

I have to tell you about this one thing that happened. That's so funny. So on the second or third day, we did a breath work workshop. A teacher led a class. It was about an hour, and it was just about breathing, which by the way was amazing. And you don't even have to roast me for the fact that they did a breathwork No.

I'll workshop in Brazil. Thank you. But like 20 minutes into this breathwork class, I suddenly smell this smell, and I'm like, what is that smell like? Smells kind of like cheese. Someone's cheese breath. And I realized that there are Cheeto feet in the vicinity. Oh

[00:07:55] Jordan Harbinger: no. Cheeto feet detected.

[00:07:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: There were, yeah, it was like 20 or 30 people in the group.

So I was like. Who, what. And then all of a sudden I got really scared. I got very paranoid that I had the Cheeto feet. Mm. You know, everyone's shoes off and we're still sitting pretty close to one another and I'm like, oh my God, do I have Cheeto feet? And I was replaying the episode where you talked about the flight to Tokyo.

And I'm like, in the middle of this class, I'm subtly leaning down in butterfly pose, like trying to smell my feet to see if they're me. And I'm like, I don't think it is. But I can't tell. And I swear to God, half of this class was ruined because I was so in my head about my Cheeto, right, my potential Cheeto feet.

But then the smell went away and I was like, okay, that's weird. I don't understand what's happening. I went home at the end of it and I, I, for like 10 minutes, I was just like sniffing my feet in the house. Gross, trying to figure out if I was the culprit. And I was like, and I even asked my friend, I'm like, do I have cheetahs?

She's like, no, dude.

[00:08:51] Jordan Harbinger: No, it's the guy with the greenish of brown toenails. So that's, that's the give,

[00:08:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: definitely not me, but I was dying laughing afterward 'cause I was, I really enjoyed this class. It was really great. But about half of it was. Intolerable. Like I couldn't enjoy it at all because yeah, I was so distracted by the smell.

And also, it's a breath work workshop, so you're just inhaling, ugh. You're like smelling the air so hard, like, oh, that's really gross over and over and over again. It was horrifying. But yeah, I just had to tell you about that. 'cause you kind of ruined that. Class for me.

[00:09:22] Jordan Harbinger: Imagine the people next to whoever had Cheeto feet and it's just like, inhale deep.

The guy get a big breath of Gaia and it's like, oh, I'm taking a big breath of Gaia, alright, of this

[00:09:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: gaia's feet right next to

[00:09:35] Jordan Harbinger: me. Guy Cheeto feet. And they're like

[00:09:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: one. And it's also so slow too. Have you ever done a breath work class? It was like, surprisingly, no. 1, 2, 3. Yeah. Four. Exhale. 4, 3, 2. And I'm like, I'm like, oh my gosh.

In my head I'm like, inhale Cheeto feet. One, two, exhale. Running, wanna run away? 'cause it might be me to what? Yeah.

[00:09:56] Jordan Harbinger: No. And every time you, you're inhaling and smelling that, it's just fungal spores from some dude's feet. That are looking for a place to

[00:10:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: reproduce. The only upside was that it was in the out.

It was a half outdoor venue, so, oh my God. That's something if you

[00:10:08] Jordan Harbinger: smell Cheeto feet outdoors, that dude has serious Cheeto feet. That's the thing. Yeah. That's not even

[00:10:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: an

[00:10:12] Jordan Harbinger: airplane cabin. You have no excuse. No, my God. Okay, so we're experimenting posting clips of the show on TikTok, uh, with the help of our former intern, Cole.

I was never interested in this. We posted on TikTok for a minute, a while back. Basically no results whatev whatsoever. I think it's possible that we are shadow banned on there because of the China episodes and our website is blocked in China at least. A lot of people tell us that. So we're giving it another go with a new approach.

I'm curious to see how we perform this time around, but if you're on TikTok, you use it and you wanna see super short clips from our library of guests, give us a follow at Jordan Harbinger. Just my name is one word. It would be awesome to connect on there and it would be a huge help to us as we build our following.

'cause I think it's all about momentum there. All right, as always, we've got some fun ones. We've got some doozies. Gabe, what is the first thing outta ye old mailbag?

[00:10:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I've been married for 12 years. It's a wonderful relationship with two kids, except for one thing. I am a sex addict and my wife has zero interest in sex.

Okay. Since getting pregnant with our second child, we've pretty much almost never had sex. I'm still crazy in love with her though, and everything else about our relationship is great. I wish you would be okay with polyamory because I love how it feels to have a deep, romantic relationship and be sexually desired.

But my wife comes from a very orthodox background and has made it very clear that even watching porn is 100% not okay.

[00:11:38] Jordan Harbinger: So this is an interesting, quite mismatched couple. Very interesting from the sound of it. Yeah. Woo. Okay.

[00:11:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Last year, my wife found out about a sugar baby. I had been keeping

[00:11:48] Jordan Harbinger: for those that are too pure to know what a sugar baby is, it is a younger person who provides romantic companionship or sexual intimacy to a wealthier, usually older person in return for gifts or just straight up money.

And if you're asking what the difference is between that and a sex worker, I'm not totally qualified to discuss that. I think often this is sort of like a relationship that's almost like a girlfriend that you keep on the side that does that for money. Again, the distinction is a bit

[00:12:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: of a gray area, isn't it?

It's a gray area. Mm-Hmm. So he goes on. We got divorced. It was messy, but we ended up getting back together. It's been over a year and I haven't cheated again, although it takes great determination. Then recently, something from the past resurfaced. Five years ago, I met a lesbian couple that wanted to have a baby.

Oh, here we go. They couldn't decide who should carry it, so they decided the best way was to let nature decide. After several months and some of the most wild fun three people can have, one of them got pregnant,

[00:12:50] Jordan Harbinger: so they just had a bunch of threesomes and they were like, screw it. Let's leave it up to fate.

[00:12:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Basically,

[00:12:55] Jordan Harbinger: I'm gonna go ahead and guess this guy had all of the proper paperwork in place for such an arrangement, if that even exists

[00:13:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: for this little game of conception roulette. Yeah. Uh, let's find out.

[00:13:04] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so this is messy. This is very messy and that's all I'm gonna say right now. I'm not even talking about the fluids exchange.

If, if you know what I mean.

[00:13:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Everyone knows what you mean, dude.

[00:13:15] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Yeah. How to not.

[00:13:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: So he goes on, they had me sign a contract saying that I was just a donor, had no rights as a father, and would never contact them after my work was done.

[00:13:24] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, your work. That's funny.

[00:13:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Hard labor that,

[00:13:28] Jordan Harbinger: if you know what I mean.

[00:13:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: So he goes on, I signed it, but never got a copy.

[00:13:34] Jordan Harbinger: So now my lawyer brain is going, was that contract even real? Because I, that stuff's hard to do and often, often not enforceable. Who drew that up? Why didn't you request a copy? Did your lawyer look at it? I mean, I already know the answer to all of these questions.

[00:13:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly. This is concerning.

[00:13:50] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Oh my God. If you're gonna do something like this, I don't think there's really a way to do this if you're gonna do that the old fashioned way, because without an agreement that is actually following some sort of state law here, my understanding is that you're legally the parent of any child.

That results, I mean, that's, well

[00:14:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: grab your popcorn, my dude, because here comes the kicker. Mm-Hmm. I thought this was all a happy memory until they broke up and the mother came calling for child support in extortionate quantities.

[00:14:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, there you go. It seems like not everybody was on board with that agreement when it's inconvenient for them.

[00:14:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: If this comes to light, my wife may explode in a fashion that would put Mount St. Helens to shame and would be equally devastating. What do I do here? Signed a distressed donor wondering what he owes here.

[00:14:35] Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy. This is a real doozy man. I can hear the stress and anxiety in your letter. Not only did you cheat on your wife, you cheated on her with two other women for a long period of time.

I mean an extended period of time and had had a baby with them or with one of them. Anyway, Gabe, I am just trying to imagine the custody agreement in a situation like this. What a mess. Total mess. And if slash when your wife finds out, yeah, she's gonna be deeply hurt and disturbed, especially given her very conservative religious values.

So I'm gonna keep it real with you man. I do not know what you are supposed to do here. You freely chose to engage with these women you signed up to effectively be their sperm donor with, you know, dubious legal protection. Now you're facing the consequences. Obviously, your options are keep it a secret and just pray.

Your wife never finds out. But look that that's kicking the can down the road. Living with this secret, carrying this guilt and anxiety for a long time, maybe forever, which is a huge risk because secrets like this have a way of coming to light eventually, which is just gonna make the whole revelation worse.

Although I suppose there's a world where she just never finds out, but that doesn't make it okay.

[00:15:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, and it's gonna do a real number on you psychologically, I would imagine.

[00:15:47] Jordan Harbinger: Option two is you tell your wife the truth, you wipe the slate clean, you go from there. It's devastating, it's stressful, it's scary, but it's not a secret eating away at you anymore.

And then you can each decide what you wanna do about your marriage with all of the information on the table. Personally, I, of course, I think option two is the way to go. It's the right thing to do at this point, given the circumstances. If you wanna live, honestly, if you wanna live respectfully, which you know, I guess that's a question you have to ask yourself.

Maybe you don't, but if you do, this is the only responsible way forward and yeah, it's gonna be horrible. Your wife doesn't even approve of watching porn, right? She comes from a conservative religious background. She's gonna be shocked. She's probably gonna feel dumb and betrayed. Especially after the whole sugar baby incident, getting divorced, getting back together.

You put your wife in a terrible position here and my heart really goes out to her. I obviously have no idea what she'll ultimately wanna do with this information, but I just don't see what good could come from continuing to hide this. It's not like, man, 'cause Gabriel, the timeline, right? He, he did this while he was married, so it's not like this was before he was in a relationship and there's any sort of reasonable explanation.

Oh yeah, no, it's just cheating 2.0 that he didn't get caught for, and she's gonna be like, what else have you done? I dunno. Gabe, I assume you concur, but what say you,

[00:16:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: oh, what? Say I, uh, yes, I concur for sure. He's made his bed, you know, now he's gotta I wipe the fluids off the sheets. I'm sorry, that really went off the rails.

Yeah, but let's put that question on ice for just a moment and talk about the bigger issue here. The bigger issue here to me is that our friend here is by his own admission, a sex addict. He has a history of infidelity, he has a history of lying, and with this whole relationship with this lesbian couple, he's exercised rather poor judgment and has been frankly reckless.

I mean, look, we don't know the details. We don't know what his relationship with that couple was like. How well he knew them, how he felt about them, what agreement, legal or otherwise they had, you know, we don't know how, how much he was willing to play in that reckless territory. We don't know why he wanted to give them a child, you know, what process he went through to make that decision.

[00:17:49] Jordan Harbinger: If there was a process, I, it doesn't seem like there was a process. I

[00:17:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: mean, right. Why did he feel he was the right person to father their child in that way?

[00:17:58] Jordan Harbinger: But even the fact that he didn't let us in on the details there, that's also kind of meaningful. Right.

[00:18:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Interesting.

[00:18:02] Jordan Harbinger: Good point. This kind of makes me wonder whether he wasn't really thinking at all, whether this is his, it seems like his addiction really is in the driver's seat on this stuff,

[00:18:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: or he's just kind of a screw it, YOLO kind of guy.

But either way, I'm not hearing a ton of nuance or introspection in this letter. I'm hearing a lot of, this is how I am, this is how my wife is, this is what I did. You know, shit has hit the fan. Now what do I do? When the more important questions to me are how did I end up in this situation? What does this crisis say about my personality and my patterns, my choices?

How do I wanna live my life? How do I wanna treat people? Especially my my wife? I'm sorry to be so blunt here, my man, because I know you're going through it, but my God, what a mess you've made for yourself, for your wife, for this couple, potentially for this child.

[00:18:49] Jordan Harbinger: That's the part that upsets me the most.

What all of this means for this child who had no say in this matter at all. Right? And look, people are conceived of sperm donors all the time. That's not wrong or dysfunctional obviously, but how do you tell a kid their birth story here? Daddy slept with mommies and I got knocked up, but we don't talk to him and the other mommy is not my spouse, wife, girlfriend anymore.

So like it's just a mess.

[00:19:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: So there's another secret and more lying, and that's part of the problem. You're asking us what to do about this child support thing and how to manage this huge secret, but from where I'm sitting, those are kind of the least of your problems.

[00:19:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Or the tip of the iceberg. In any case.

[00:19:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: The other big question I have is how does this marriage operate? I know he said that it's a wonderful relationship except for the sex piece. That he's still very much in love with her.

[00:19:34] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I mean, look, I'll take his word for it there, but I have my doubts about that.

[00:19:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I, I don't know. I do too. I'm not entirely sure how our relationship can be great if one party is cheating or even just wants to cheat and is like white knuckling it through their marriage, you know?

Mm-Hmm. Gig Getty. Yep. Yeah. I mean, possibly, literally. Yeah. Not sure what this guy's search history is like,

[00:19:55] Jordan Harbinger: but Right. It's a, it's probably about as messy as the custody agreement, I'd imagine. Yeah.

[00:20:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: But like really, how is the relationship great if one person is sitting on an earth shattering secret,

[00:20:06] Jordan Harbinger: that's another example of that oversimplification.

You mentioned a moment ago when he says, our relationship is great except for the fact that I'm a sex addict and my wife has zero interest in sex. That kind of echoes the whole, this is the way I am, this is the way my wife is, and we divorced, but then we got back together. Oh, well, but hey, what do I do about secretly impregnating this other woman who wants child support now?

So I can see how a person who views his life that way could get himself into some real pickles, some real pickles involved in his pickle, if you know what I mean. Again,

[00:20:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: we all know what you mean. Yes, good.

[00:20:36] Jordan Harbinger: Sometimes I worry I'm too subtle, Gabriel. That's the

[00:20:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: thing. No need to worry about that, but yes, that's exactly right.

What I'm trying to understand is how did these two people get together?

[00:20:44] Jordan Harbinger: There's gotta be so much happening in this dynamic.

[00:20:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And also dude, like why did they get back together? I dunno. What is keeping them together? It's

[00:20:52] Jordan Harbinger: kind of a mystery. I mean, I have, again, I have my theories here, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

[00:20:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, look, he chose a spouse twice who is not compatible with him on one major dimension, and he fought for that relationship

[00:21:06] Jordan Harbinger: and now he's working very hard not to cheat on her again.

[00:21:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Which, okay, by the way, I do commend him for Yeah, right. Sure. Like credit, where credit is due for that.

[00:21:14] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. He's trying to behave differently.

I appreciate that.

[00:21:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: But he's not going. Why do I have this urge to cheat in the first place? Is this even the right relationship for me? Ultimately,

[00:21:23] Jordan Harbinger: yeah. Are the terms of this relationship, the right ones for me,

[00:21:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: it's just fascinating. Like why is he so in love with somebody who cannot meet this very important and yes, problematic in some cases need of his, and to be fair.

Why is he so in love with somebody whose needs he can't seem to meet either? Namely, for honesty, for commitment, for basic respect, he says he wishes his wife would be okay with polyamory because he, what does he say? He loves how it feels to have a deep, romantic relationship and to be sexually desired.

He hasn't found those two important experiences in the same person.

[00:21:55] Jordan Harbinger: You know, that's kind of how a romantic relationship sh should function, I would argue.

[00:22:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. So is it possible that he has chosen somebody who can't give him those two experiences? Or, and this is what I think he really needs to consider.

Is it hard for him to have those two experiences with the same person?

[00:22:13] Jordan Harbinger: You know, Gabe, my mind is going to our interview with Ken Adams, the enmeshment expert. That was episode 9 42, by the way. And one of the things he talks about is that men, well, well, people in general, but especially men. Men who had overly enmeshed relationships with their mothers, they can sometimes find it difficult to enjoy both sex and emotional intimacy with the same partner.

Uh, interesting. Right. If I recall correctly, at least in part, it's because it often activates these old wounds and patterns that were created in childhood where a child is in an overly intimate relationship with a needy or demanding parent. And didn't Dr. Adams kind of say that a lot of these men. End up cheating on their partners.

He

[00:22:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: did. Yeah.

[00:22:51] Jordan Harbinger: Because they can't find what they need in one person

[00:22:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: or end up struggling with sex addiction, interestingly, a lot of the time.

[00:22:57] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Because that impulse has to go somewhere. Right? Right. But for some people, it can't be fulfilled in the same relationship where the emotional intimacy is taking place.

Right. For various reasons. Probably. 'cause it seems like you're sleeping with your mom, which is not, you know?

[00:23:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. But didn't he also talk about how cheating, I can't remember if I'm attributing this to him or if this is something I'm bringing to what he wrote about, but didn't he say that also cheating can be an act of like protest, kind of like in a, almost like an assertion of autonomy, right?

Like, I'm still in charge, I still have my own desires, my own agency. I can go off and have these experiences with, you know, with other people who are not you. You my partner who recreate this difficult, painful dynamic I had with my parents.

[00:23:36] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it sounds familiar. I'm sure there's a lot more to it than that and it's super complex and obviously every individual is different.

I now, I secretly wonder, was this guy's mom also really conservative and like, dude,

[00:23:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm dying to know who his parents were. I know, like me too. I don't wanna speculate, but it's just that has to be playing a huge role here.

[00:23:52] Jordan Harbinger: I would think so. Okay. So again, I have no idea if that applies to our friend here.

We don't know his personal history, but to your point, Gabe, he has some personal history and it's gotta be informing all this, his marriage, the infidelity, the sex addiction, this affair with the lesbian couple, the child support thing, his impulse to lie about all of it.

[00:24:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And especially that impulse to have a secret life.

Right. Because I suspect that that's not just a pragmatic thing, like, oh, I have to keep this a secret in order to enjoy it. I think having a secret life that often serves some deeper purpose. For sure. That's the stuff he needs to be curious about right

[00:24:24] Jordan Harbinger: now. The paternity child support thing, that's obviously a real issue and the best advice I can offer there is to contact a reproductive law and or family attorney immediately and tell them your story.

I'm sure they're gonna ask to see that agreement. I hope one of those gals can produce it. Obviously, the one who's suing you for child support's probably gonna go there wasn't one. Go for the other one that is probably angry at her former partner and say, Hey, where's that document? Or at least she'll say, I remember you signed it and we agreed to it, but I don't know where it is.

They're gonna tell you, the attorney will tell you what obligations you have to this child, if any, and they can help you negotiate a fair child support agreement if it comes to that. That's your move there. But in the bigger picture, man, you need to get to the root of this infidelity and sex thing. I'm not shaming you for it.

I appreciate that you've shared so much with us. But if you wanna grow, if you wanna have, well-functioning relationships, if you wanna avoid this kind of drama in the future, you have gotta start digging into your patterns, your impulses in your past. So you know what I'm about to say? Time to go to therapy, find somebody good.

Maybe somebody who specializes in sex addiction. Definitely somebody who's interested in exploring childhood and early experiences. 'cause that's where most of this stuff starts. And if any of the Ken Adams stuff resonated with you, or you just wanna learn more about how enmeshment might play a role in all this, I would read his books.

I'd consider hitting him up and booking a consultation. Maybe even check out one of his workshops. I hear they can be profound. And I hope all of this leads you to the answers that you're looking for. Look, thanks so much for letting us be unusually direct with you. I know that some of this might be hard to hear.

I know we say this with love in a genuine hope that you can grow from all this because you deserve that man, and your wife does too. So good luck. You know who else wants to be in a reckless threesome? Us, you, and the amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back. Gotta sign that agreement though.

This episode is sponsored in part by Dell and a MD Dell Technologies has just dropped the Cybersecurity Tapes, which is a new podcast series that dives into today's biggest cybersecurity challenges. And I know that sounds a little bit technical, but this is a really good format. To teach cybersecurity because it's story based.

So on a recent episode, Gemini, which is a chat bot that's like a customer service bot, it starts leaking corporate secrets, and there's a lot of plot twists in there, which they did pretty well in my opinion. Maria, of course, is a seasoned security pro, seen it all. She runs her own consulting gig. She knows how to untangle tech messes, and then they put her skills to the test.

And I know that it's like, okay, there's a lot of stories about cybersecurity, but reading articles about this stuff is not really the greatest way to learn this. I love the fact that they've got like a story-based format here that teaches important lessons, and it's not just a story. They're really packed with insights and tips to handle your own.

Cybersecurity nightmares. So instead of throwing facts and figures at you, it uses real life scenarios and characters, which makes it easier and way more interesting, frankly, to understand the risks and how they can impact us. So while you're listening to this drama unfold, you're learning crucial info on how to protect yourself in the digital world at the same time.

So catch the next episode of the cybersecurity tapes on platforms like Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And if you've got a cybersecurity horror story of your own, you can drop a review and your story might inspire their next episode. This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help. We've all got our load of stressors, right?

These pesky irritations and major dilemmas that can really dampen your day to say the least. Sure. Venting to family and friends feels good. It's like a quick massage for your psyche, but talking to a licensed therapist, that's really the deep tissue work that your mind actually needs. Honestly, for me, therapy's been a revelation.

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[00:28:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan a Gabe, a close friend of mine, has a successful career, owns properties and has been open about his long battle with clinical depression.

After his divorce four years ago, he quickly started a new relationship and had two children despite not being married. They are in a defacto partnership recognized in our country. But two weeks ago while I was visiting, he was in such a bad place that he canceled our meeting at the last minute. Turns out his partner took their children and left without warning.

This led him into a spiral of distress and heavy drinking. The next day, in a panic, he incessantly texted her, which culminated in her filing a police report against him, citing a previous physical altercation, which he insists was not aggressive, but defensive. It doesn't help that he has problems with alcohol and marijuana, which my friend believes his partner would use against him if he ever decided to escalate matters legally.

He's now facing a criminal charge, is required to follow a strict mental health plan and is coping with the financial blow after his partner drained their joint bank account, his suicidal ideation has intensified. He has little will to engage in work, and he feels completely disconnected from his children and hopeless about reuniting his family.

He's concerned about his job and income now, which he needs to fight the charges against him and to regain access to his family and his assets. While he can be challenging during depressive episodes, he's a fundamentally kind and empathetic person, never truly threatening, and I believe his partner knows this.

I've offered my friend a place to stay for a change of scenery, but I realized that might not be sufficient. He didn't say no though, which is encouraging. What are the dos and don'ts in such a delicate situation? How can I ensure that my support is both effective and sensitive to his current state?

Signed looking for some guidelines while I watch my boys struggle from the sidelines.

[00:30:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this is a really good question. I'm sorry that your friend is going through it. It's very touching that you're so concerned about him. We should all have friends as supportive as you, so he's a lucky dude in that way.

So the first thing you need to remember is that your friend's life is your friend's life, and your life is your life. I know that sounds really sort of basic, but look, your friend struggles with depression, with addiction and what sounds like occasionally impulsive and unstable behavior. Even if he has some good reasons for it or it, it's not as bad as his partner is making out sometimes, fine, but that's his stuff to work on or not.

One of the most important things in life is to be available to somebody without becoming responsible for somebody. To support them without taking their stuff on as your own. And I'm sorry to rehash this old feedback Friday chestnut, but that is an essential boundary. It is the essential boundary. You cannot be truly helpful to your friend unless you honor it.

This thing with his partner, it's interesting, it's obviously created a world of stress for him, but also he helped create this situation, right? Whether it's fair or unfair, whether he is dangerous or harmless. He has behaved in a way that has led to these consequences. One of those consequences is that he needs to follow a strict mental health plan, which look given what you shared about the guy, that sounds like a great idea.

It sounds like he needs that. We can debate whether he deserves what's happening to him or not. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he doesn't deserve it in a procedural sense, but it's exactly what he needs, you know, in a cosmic sense, man. But based on what you've shared, your boy needs to address this stuff, if he's gonna get healthy, if he's gonna be a good father, if he's gonna have good relationships.

So I do wonder whether this situation with his partner or kind of, and I know you love it when I say this, had to happen in some sense to bring to the surface some uncomfortable truths and to create the pressure that he needs to finally get healthier. So the best thing you can do is allow your friend to go through this period of suffering while encouraging him to seek the help that he needs and the help he needs in my opinion is, well, first of all, therapy for sure.

If he's been struggling with clinical depression and addiction for years, he needs to be talking to somebody. If he's having suicidal ideation, that is very concerning. At the very least, it's debilitating and it's something he absolutely should be addressing with a professional as of yesterday. Also, if he needs some additional support to get through this period, he might wanna schedule a consult with a psychiatrist, see if medication might be part of his treatment.

And look, this doesn't need to be forever if going on meds for six months, a year, two years, if that allows him to keep showing up at work, if it quiets the voice inside telling him to hurt himself, if it keeps his addictions at bay, if it stops him from dipping below a certain level, I think that could be a game changer.

But that's for him and his doctor to talk about. Now, the financial piece of this is obviously big. Your friend is struggling to engage with his work, which he needs to be able to do to get better and keep his life together. So you could also recommend that he get a career coach to help him stay on track at work.

But honestly, I also think that's something a good therapist could help him with. And then of course, I think your friend needs to be taking care of himself in all the other important ways. He's gotta be moving his body, he's gotta be seeing friends, he's gotta get outside, he's gotta talk to people. Not sit there drinking and smoking a bunch, all that, which is something you could encourage him to do if slash when he comes to stay with you, like you said.

But the main thing I want you to remember is that your role in this guy's life is to be a champion, a source of love and support, not to solve all this guy's problems. You cannot live someone else's life for them. And when you're a parent, you'll find that out real, real fast. You cannot save someone who doesn't wanna be saved.

You cannot make someone change who isn't ready to change.

[00:34:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: And to that, I would add, like we talked about in our newsletter recently, you cannot, and you really should not spare people their fair share of appropriate suffering.

[00:34:18] Jordan Harbinger: Look, in a case like this, here's a guy who needs to confront some very important stuff, and he's participated in a dynamic with his family that has brought those things to a head.

So when he comes to stay with you or when you talk on the phone, I would maybe tell him, you know, you gotta work on this stuff bud, or It's gonna make the rest of your life very, very difficult. And I'm here to support you however I can. But it's time for you to accept what's happening and put in the work.

That's a gift, so don't be afraid to give it to him. And I hope your friend can take that in. I hope he uses this crisis to heal and grow wishing him and you all the best. And man, that's, that is a tough one, Gabe. 'cause I feel for the guy, right? His wife took the kids, or a partner took the kids. Right. But I'm almost like, I kind of understand why somebody might do that.

If you're married to an alcoholic who maybe is abusive sometimes, or outta control and is depressed, it's like, do you want your kids around that? It's a tough one. He's gotta deserve what he wants, which is to get his family back. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines.

That makes our job a lot easier. If your professional fate is in the hands of a conspiracy theorist, your mother keeps going back to her psychopathic abuser, or you're trying to leave a narcissistic, addicted, manipulative spouse, but you're trapped whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com.

We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:35:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, next up. Hey guys, I'm in my late twenties and I'm a year and a half into being a community social worker. I don't have a master's in social work, which is typically industry standard for management, yet I landed a management role right after my bachelor's.

My boss told me that my out of the box thinking and detailed research landed me the job. I'm also pretty good at networking, in part because of your course maybe too good at it. I've basically created an alter ego to get in the mindset as I'm a natural introvert. I also have a DHD and love to go down rabbit holes.

I memorize specific details about people and work them into conversations to connect with people in a memorable way, because I've moved frequently and done a lot of volunteer work, my network is rather large and I'm fairly well known in my community. I've been invited to sit on local and state boards and testified at a Senate health and wellness committee.

I've helped start community initiatives and attended many charity events and partnerships with bigwigs. Upper management often praises me, asks me to assist other departments and programs and lets me take any trainings I choose. I've had over 100 hours of additional trainings. I'm on eight different committees with my organization.

I even lead the book club where we read books recommended by you on the show. I'm asked to help directors as a mere coordinator, and I've secured over a hundred thousand dollars in grant funding.

[00:36:58] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, you're killing it. This is extremely impressive. Where's the problem, Gabe? Lay it on me.

[00:37:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: The problem is that I often find myself with imposter syndrome.

For example, I was recently invited to sit on my state's court appointed special Advocate Association board, which is full of people with masters and decades of experience. When I do things that are rung or too above me, I just tell myself, that'll be me in a few years, but I question whether I truly belong in these positions.

Or I just know how to play the game too well. I switched to my confident, knowledgeable persona and fit right in. But at the end of the day, I'm drained and left wondering why I put myself in positions that feel more suitable for bigger fish.

[00:37:39] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, this is textbook I imposter syndrome and is very normal.

But continue.

[00:37:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: My husband and I are also the first people in our families to have bachelor's degrees. We're passionate about leveling up, but all of the women in both families are stay-at-home moms or have jobs that aren't careers. So I haven't had any personal role models. Also, I was a runaway teen at 17.

I experienced homelessness. I struggled with addiction, anger, and abusive relationships. The people who know me now don't know that version of me. We recently moved near where I spent my teens though, and it has stirred up more of the imposter syndrome since it's a small part of the Midwest. I'm also scared that my new higher level relationships will recognize me from my past as my career develops.

Should I keep leaning into these opportunities or should I scale back my networking and only focus on people at my level? Should I go back to school for a master's in social work to feel more self-assured? How do I finally kick this imposter rhythm? Signed, looking for the right traits and still out running my fate when I am punching way above my weight.

[00:38:43] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. What a story. I'm a little gobsmacked over here to go from being a runaway at 17 years old, being homeless, struggling with addiction, experiencing abuse, to go from all that to being a social worker, managing people, and testifying in front of senators and building relationships with all these impressive people in your late twenties, no less.

Incredible. Can we just take a moment to appreciate what a huge accomplishment this is? This reminds me of, of Adam Grant, where it's not the outcome, it's how far you've come to get there. Mm-Hmm. And if you haven't heard that episode, go back and listen to the most recent Adam Grant episode. Episode. You are an inspiration, my friend, way to make me feel like a total slacker over here.

Uh, I've never spoken in Congress. All of this speaks to your resourcefulness, your hard work, your curiosity, and maybe a sprinkle of that, A DHD that you mentioned, which by the way, way to make that work for you. There's clearly a lot going on in this letter, Gabe, but it's obvious to me this is a remarkable person.

So I'm, I'm so damn proud of her. This is amazing. So it's interesting, I'm getting the sense that this fire, you have this ambition. It's beautiful, right? And it's also probably a way to transcend your roots. And sometimes maybe it's also a way to compensate for them. My experience is that ambitious people, they're usually driven by certain needs, right?

To be useful, to be effective, to be appreciated, to be respected, to be needed. And that's not inherently bad. All human beings do this to some degree. We should all strive to be useful. But I do think that it's important to acknowledge that ambition often has, has a shadow side. In your case, your ambition might be informed by a need, a very adaptive and impressive need to create a very different life from the one you had when you were young.

And hey, it's working, it's working brilliantly, but it might also be contributing to this sense of fraudulence. The other thing that's also playing a role is that you and your husband, who also by the way, sounds like a remarkable guy, you haven't had a lot of models for your kind of success, maybe any at all from the sound of it.

You don't have a clear template for your life here, and that can make things feel even scarier. You are inventing the way you are creating the template. So that's gotta be kind of anxiety provoking. Not just because you don't know how your career should look, but also because you might not always know whether you're doing something wrong, so to speak.

Whether you have what it takes to sustain the success, whether you deserve it, that's always gonna linger. Whereas people with more obvious models, they often inherit a certain confidence or security. It's in the water, so to speak. Although, I gotta say, another thing I've learned over the years is that so many confident and seemingly privileged people are also deep down, just as lost and terrified as everybody else.

Oftentimes even more so. So imposter syndrome doesn't just hit people from humble backgrounds or whatever. Even people with good models, more secure childhoods, they have to chart their own path too, at least if they hope to individuate and build their own identities, which not everybody manages to do. So what I want you to remember is that being confused, being afraid, charting your own path.

It's really hard sometimes, especially if you don't have a ton of role models, but it's a gift. It's the price you pay for pushing yourself beyond your abilities for charting a path that is authentically yours. And I know this is way easier said than done, and it's way easier for me to say it than for you to do it.

But as much as you can try to enjoy that gift, this fraudulence you feel, it doesn't have to be all bad. It can be a symptom of you playing, growing, punching above your weight and not always knowing what you're doing, which is appropriate and sometimes even exciting. It's kind of cool in that light if you think about it.

But there's one last thing we gotta touch on here, which is you have experienced your fair share of very real trauma in your life. My friend. Homelessness, addiction, abuse. These are profound experiences, tragic experiences. And I'm, I'm so sorry, first of all that you went through them. I'm sure you already know how meaningful these experiences are, but I just wanna appreciate that part of what you're feeling is probably the legacy of this trauma.

I'm sure that it has shaped your sense of self, your belonging in the world, your sense of worthiness. And I do wonder if that's a big part of the imposter,

[00:42:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: right? Not just a gap between her talent and her responsibilities, but maybe an old sense of unease that might make it hard to feel deserving of this objectively incredible life that she's built.

[00:42:48] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. That might make it hard to feel grounded in her talent. And then it's hard to trust that other people are gonna meet her with love, appreciation, acceptance, even if she's not perfect.

[00:42:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, like she said, she's literally afraid of being found out, which is a classic symptom of imposter syndrome.

Right. But I think that feeling. It's gotta be especially acute when you have a painful past. Because the other big theme in your letter is shame, right? There's some shame around your accomplishments, even though you have a ton of them. Like, is it enough? Am I enough? I also hear some shame about your background, especially since you moved back, which is so interesting, by the way.

Just the fact that being physically closer to where you grew up can make these fears more intense. I don't know what it is about that physical proximity, but it is powerful. I mean, you're clearly in touch with your roots more than ever, and that's making you anxious about being found out almost to the point of like mild paranoia, like are people gonna suddenly realize that I'm this person and I came from these experiences, so this is intense stuff.

But then the more you try to outrun that past, the more the shame seems to compound. By the way, I also hear some shame in the mere fact that you're struggling with this imposter, even as you find objective success and great feedback in your career. What's interesting to me, to Jordan's point a moment ago, is the way that you've used that shame to fuel your ambition, the way that you sometimes maybe deny it or stuff it down by working really hard to invent a new story for yourself.

Like you said, you know, in those moments of stress or or self-doubt, I just tell myself, that'll be me in a few years. So you're channeling this anxiety into your work, into your discipline, into your research. Your relationship building your charisma. That's actually a highly evolved way to cope with these feelings.

But it might also be a way of dealing with a very old terror and embarrassment, which I just want you to know. We all feel to some degree, but people with your particular traumas and background, they might feel it more acutely. So given all of that, how do you finally kick this thing? Well, I think it really begins with owning your story.

Actually, let me rephrase. Not just owning your story, I don't mean like inventing one more story and then telling everybody about it, and you know, this is who I am, this is where I'm heading. I mean, owning yourself just as you are. Your thoughts, your feelings, your memories, your experiences, all of it, not just the pieces that you feel are acceptable or attractive or impressive.

I. Now look, I understand that nobody wants to advertise their shame. Nobody wants to publicize their fear, right?

[00:45:18] Jordan Harbinger: Well, especially at work, right? You, you're not supposed to be vulnerable at work, supposedly, that's the whole problem.

[00:45:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. Certainly in our culture. But I do think that you can begin integrating these two halves of yourself, the woman who came from this difficult background and doesn't always know what she's doing, and the woman who's extremely talented and performing at a remarkably high level.

What I would love for you to play with is the idea that you don't need to quarantine these parts of your identity in order to succeed. In fact, my experience is that the opposite is usually true, especially in your line of work. I mean, you are dealing with human beings, you're dealing with people in need.

You are working on systems that are created to help them. So I'm not saying you need to go around telling every person you meet, you know, this is what I've been through and I feel like a fraud all the time. Obviously there's a time and place for these conversations, but acknowledging where you've come from and what you've been through and where you struggle in the right settings, I think that could be very powerful for you, for sure.

And also for anyone who gets to know you better. And if you do that in the right spirit, if you do it in order to connect with people or to educate or to ask for help or just, you know, to open up and heal a little bit, then I promise you, you are going to find great results.

[00:46:30] Jordan Harbinger: Totally agree, Gabe, but you're right.

She needs to share her story with the right intention and the right people. And I would start with people who have the capacity and desire to really know you. So your husband, friends, family, mentors, peers, a therapist. To Gabe's point, you don't need to be a hot mess. You don't need to be reckless. We all know those people who trot out their tale of woe to elicit sympathy, or get attention.

I know you don't wanna be that person or because they're working something out in a way that's just not appropriate. That's not you. But as you play with this, you'll know when you can tell somebody where your tender spots are. We talk about this a lot, but it's so important. I don't mind repeating it.

The antidote to shame isn't hiding. It's revealing. So fun, right? I know it sucks, but there's no way around it. And actually my experience is that it gets to be kind of fun once you realize what a damn relief it is. So, no, I definitely would not scale back your networking and only focus on people at your level.

Keep doing what you're doing. It's awesome. But build relationships with people at all levels, including your peers. And sure, you can go back to school, you can get your MSW when the time is right, and if the degree speaks to you and it would help your career, I'm all for it. But I wouldn't pin your hopes for feeling more self-assured on another degree.

It's not that accomplishments are wrong or useless, they're important, they're part of your career, but a master's alone is not gonna heal your childhood or make you feel more secure in your role. But if you pursue it with the right mindset, I think it could be fantastic. But again, it's secondary. So keep up the amazing work.

Keep leaning into these profound questions. What you're dealing with is so universal, so human, and honestly, it's a sign you're pushing yourself to grow and achieve at a very high level, at such a young age, which is so awesome. Now you just gotta balance that ambition with a little more self-acceptance and vulnerability, and that's a process.

But you can start right now. That's gonna take you very, very far. Trust me, and good luck. You know what else feels like fraud? The steal of a deal, and the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Aura. Have you noticed all the data breaches lately?

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Okay,

[00:50:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: next

[00:50:18] Jordan Harbinger: up.

[00:50:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys, I know you've talked about going to North Korea a bunch. I hear that their banking system and money is a mess. How do you pay for things in North Korea? Was that hard? Signed? Curious about income in the hermit kingdom?

[00:50:32] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, well, yeah, first of all, there's no banks and there's no cards you can use because they are cut off in terms of sanctions from the international banking system.

So there's no swift system, there's no way they can transfer funds from to and from any other countries. As far as I understand. Maybe you could do something with like Russia, but I, I don't know anybody that's able to do that, and I wouldn't trust that anyways. I've never seen a bank in North Korea. Uh, when I asked about banking, nobody used one.

Most people don't even have that much cash, and if they do, it's stashed safely under their mattress or whatever. So from foreigners, they accept Chinese currency, euros and US dollars. And of course they would love it if people they transacted with domestically could also use those. But foreigners are not allowed to use local currency.

And people domestically, from what I understand, are not allowed to use foreign currency because the government wants a monopoly. To maximize the amount of foreign currency they have. Because unlike the US which can print money when it needs to or shuffle things around, North Korea can't use its own local currency because it is worthless.

So they need all the foreign currency they can get. So making sure that foreigners have to use it and locals can't use it is a great way to do that. And as far as how you buy things, Gabe, do you remember that store in the hotel that's super inefficient and totally weird. That weird department store, is that what you're talking about?

There's the weird department store, but there's a store at the hotel that was just bizarre.

[00:51:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah, yeah. The convenience store where they have all like toothpaste and

[00:51:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's the most inconvenient convenience store in the world. Yes. So you walk in there and everything's in a case and you're like, oh, I need toothpaste.

And they're like, okay, there's a person whose job it is to unlock the case, to get the toothpaste out. And it's not the same person that you say that you want toothpaste. That person has to tell another person. That person then hands the toothpaste, not to you, but to the cashier who then has to ring this up and by ring it up.

I mean write everything on paper because most stuff is manual there. I

[00:52:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: was about to say, do you remember how every interaction required, like a 10 minute receipt process where they would painstakingly write out every item you were buying and what the amount? Oh,

[00:52:30] Jordan Harbinger: it was absolutely ridiculous. It was like a third grade assignment where they make something really complicated to make sure you know how to do it.

They would do that and write several copies of this receipt out in pencil, which makes no sense, and you're like, gimme the, it took 20 minutes later you have your toothpaste that's been in that case for 15 years and it's like fake crest from China, from like nineties China. It's just bizarre. And I remember being like, why don't they just have one person working here who does this?

And the answer is communists, socialist countrys, they give people jobs even if the job is completely useless. Like, we need a person here instead of a traffic light, even though nobody has a car. So there's a, a traffic cop standing at an intersection where there hasn't been a car in five days, and they're just standing there because they need to give jobs.

And there's people manning escalators, like, oh, we need someone at the top and we need somebody at the bottom to make sure the escalators running. It's just, that's the most communist thing ever. That's why they're so inefficient. There's a credit card there. It's not really that, it's a charge card that you have to load.

It's called a choreo card. I got one. And nobody uses it. It requires electricity. They don't have electricity in most places at most times. Even the places that say they accept it often cannot accept it. I did buy a full set of money from the hotel and pristine condition. That was kind of cool. So I have a whole set of North Korean wine, which they sell you at their ridiculously inflated exchange rate.

So you just have to look at it like you're buying a souvenir because you're buying a set of worthless paper with real money. In the end. There's not really a lot of places to spend money like they, they would love more foreign currency, and they're always trying to juice it outta you. But really, the hotel can accept foreign currency.

There's a bookstore where you go in and they have to turn on the lights because they live there and no one ever goes there. So they turn on the lights and they're like, you can tell they just woke up or something. When you go in there, there's a bookstore. Every single book is written by Kim Jong Iel, Kim Mill song, or Kim Jong-Un, I'm not exaggerating.

Every single one. And they look like textbooks. There's posters in there and stuff that you can buy. You don't buy the books, you buy the posters. I. There's a brewery, which is also, again, I think in the hotel there's restaurants, but you know, you can't just go to whichever one you want. You have to like make an appointment.

Your whole crew has to show up there. The whole bus has to go there 'cause they open the place for you. The locals are not patronizing these places 'cause they can't. There's also a fun fair. Gabe, you wanna talk about the fun fair?

[00:54:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, the fun. I love the fun fair. Although, looking back, I really regret going on some of those rides 'cause you know, well, yeah, I don't know what kind of safety standards these rides are following.

And they're not, they're aggressive. Do you remember that one ride that was like mildly terrifying? Can you Well, they

[00:55:05] Jordan Harbinger: were all kind of. So it's a modern amusement park instead of rides. And you're like, I'm not going on this. And the guides go, don't worry, this stuff's all from Italy.

[00:55:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah, that's right.

And it's like,

[00:55:14] Jordan Harbinger: oh, okay. But then you go, oh wait, if it's in Italy, they probably inspect this stuff like every month.

[00:55:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Not here. If it's

[00:55:20] Jordan Harbinger: in North Korea, they bought it from Italy and they've never looked at it since the installation.

[00:55:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: It was like, there was one that was like a TikTok kind of thing. Like it would just tick and talk and it would spin.

It's like a pendulum. It was like a pendulum. Oh, that was terrifying. Yeah. But I love the fun fare. I feel like that was where we got to interact with more locals than any other place. Right. Yeah.

[00:55:37] Jordan Harbinger: I remember many girls standing near me and then when I looked at them, they would literally run away scared.

Mm-Hmm. Which is weird. That just shows you the level of propaganda that was involved. Not like giggly, runaway scared, but to actually scared that I'm gonna somehow hurt them. Oh, really? And I remember there were a couple girls that wanted to interact with us. Were you next? I can't remember who I was next to.

I was next to somebody. And this old lady who was cleaning up the floor with a broom, hit them with the broom when they came close to us to get them away from us.

[00:56:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't remember this.

[00:56:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That lady was there to clean cigarette butts off the ground and make sure that no locals interacted with us as foreigners.

I mean, she hit them hard. It wasn't like get away from those Americans. It was like whack. And they were like, ouch. Okay. You hit me in the shin with a broom. What the hell?

[00:56:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: But it's interesting you find that with older folks in North Korea who have more of an attachment to the war and they maybe even remember the war potentially, or their parents do and they have more bias against Westerners Americans specifically.

But once you meet younger people there, they don't care. They actually, I found that most of them were really cool and and open. They're just very shy. Yeah. But it was very fun to interact with them at the fun fair, and that's another place where they love to get you to spend money. All foreigners get to cut the line.

Right? But then they charge you an exorbitant rate. Yeah. And that's a way that they just make more money.

[00:56:50] Jordan Harbinger: You get to cut the line, but it's also like you pay per ride. So of course they want you to cut the line so you can go on more rides. It was very bizarre. And you see the abandoned fun fare and you're like, holy crap.

How many people died on that thing before they shut it down? I love these North Korea questions. I love these travel adventure questions, but let's take the next letter. Gabe, you're up.

[00:57:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: So our next letter actually comes in two parts, two different emails from a very special listener. I gotta say, these emails really moved Jordan and me quite a bit, so we wanted to share them with you.

And listen, before I dive in, I, I apologize in advance if I get a little bit emotional reading these letters, but you know, you've heard two grown ass men cry on the show before, so it's nothing new, but I just feel self-conscious about it. Okay, so the first letter goes, Hey, Jordan and Gabe, I've been battling cancer for some time and after some recent CT scans, the prognosis is not good.

Depending on how the tumor responds to a new course of treatment, I either continue treatment in hopes that the tumor shrinks, or I'll be moved to stage four and given the whole quality of life option, yes, this is really bad news, and yes, it's a lot to process, but the weird part is that over the last week, I almost saw this coming even with no external indicators, my body and brain saw that I was not responding and that I was on borrowed time.

Barbara and I sat down last Saturday and spoke about this exact scenario. Strange that we felt compelled to have this conversation when we did, but I guess I'm more in tune with my body than I ever knew. I want to thank you for all of the excellent content that you've created. You have no idea how great it is to have your back catalog available, especially when I have a five hour chemo session to get through or just sitting in all these waiting rooms with nothing but time to kill your episodes.

Help me get through it. So once again, my thanks to you. I would include Gabe in that, but God knows where he is right now. Signed Pete. Well, Pete, I was sitting on the couch in the tiny, tiny house we were renting in Brazil. Reading your email. Low key crying while my housemates made oatmeal in the background.

That's where I was, my dude.

[00:58:50] Jordan Harbinger: Such a nice email. Obviously this one got me to, I've been corresponding with Pete a little bit here and there, right? So that was the first email and then a, a couple weeks ago, Pete sent us a follow up. Gabe, you wanna read that? Hey guys,

[00:59:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: I've decided to give up on all treatments far too painful and worse than the disease I.

We now have in-House Hospice. They're here to keep me comfortable until I finally pass. I wanted to take this time to, once again, thank both of you and your team for getting me through this. You've brought a lot of pleasure to my shortened life, and I appreciate every minute of it. I look forward to meeting you all on the other side, but please do not rush.

Take care, Pete.

[00:59:30] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. Let's see if we can get through this one without crying into the microphone. Shall we? Let's try, man. I'm like really trying to hold it together over here. I know. We, we wanted to share these letters, well, for a couple of reasons. First, to celebrate the life of a very cool, deeply kind show fan Pete Danella.

We only got to know Pete recently, and honestly, we don't know a ton about his biography, but it sounds like he led a very full life. Pete was a sergeant, I think in the US Army, might have also served in the Marines. Not sure how that works based on a story he shared with us once, and he served in Korea.

In one of his emails, he shared a photo of himself sitting in the back of a helicopter in Seoul, leaning on his helmet and, and what looked like his weapon and his face, if I had to describe it, is boyish focused, solid, brave, and gentle. And I can't even imagine what he must have been thinking at the time, what serving in combat at such a young age brought to his life.

But it seems to have produced a man who faced his diagnosis, and I'm sure all the events in his life with a ton of courage, a ton of humility, a kind of noble acceptance that I imagine is making his transition very peaceful and very meaningful. He mentioned Barbara in his email. I believe Barbara is his wife, certainly his partner.

Sounds like they have a very close and loving relationship. I've never spoken with her. I have no idea if she's listening to this, but sending you such a big hug, Barbara, and I hope you're holding up. Okay. I wish I knew more about Pete so I could tell you everything about him. He's been keeping a blog during his treatment that is very vulnerable and very touching.

We'll link to that in the show notes. It's actually quite an interesting document. You can get a feel for how this guy is approaching his own mortality, which is inspiring. But the spirit of his emails really says the most important things about him. I hope to be half as courageous and clear-eyed and down to earth as Pete is.

And I'm grateful to you, Pete, for embodying these virtues so beautifully for showing us what an enlightened transition looks like. But the other reason we wanted to share Pete's letter was, man, uh, how can I put this without sounding super emo or self-Important. Look, the fact that Pete is spending some of his last days with us is just insanely meaningful.

Like it's, this is indescribably touching. Mm-Hmm. The time you guys share with us, the role we get to play in your lives is everything to us. Everything. It's what makes this show so much more than a career. So when Pete said that we helped him get through chemo and doctor's appointments and all that, it just filled me with this deep gratitude for him, for all of you, for this life that somehow allows me to put something out into the world that I care about and that people like Pete care about too.

I literally do not know how to express how that makes me feel. I, I guess I feel honored and moved, and that's really all I can say. So as we wrap up here, so much love to Pete and Barbara. Godspeed. Pete, I am sorry about this. All of it, Pete, mostly because I cannot afford to lose listeners. The quarterly numbers are bleak.

No, I'm just, I'm, I'm playing. Sorry. You know me. I have to crack a joke here. I'm gonna end up with a sincerity hangover tomorrow. But seriously, thank you for being part of our show family, for your time and your attention and your words for teaching me some profound things in this brief time that we knew each other.

Much love to you, Pete. Much love to all of you out there. It's just one life, man. That's all we get. You gotta make it count, and I'm gonna take that into my weekend. I hope you do too. Courtesy of our very special friend and listener, Pete Danella. Hope y'all enjoyed the show. I wanna thank everyone who wrote in this week and everybody who listened.

Thank you so much. The best things that have happened in my life in business have come through my network. The circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to do that same thing. Build that same thing for yourself in our six minute networking course. It is free. It is not gross, it is not schmoozy, and you can find it on the Think If it platform@sixminutenetworking.com.

It takes a few minutes a day. You gotta dig that well before you get thirsty. Folks, build relationships before you need them. In fact, relationships one of the only things that matter in this life. You can find all that for free@sixminutenetworking.com. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show.

If you wanna jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, you can find that at the Jordan Harbinger sub Reddit. If you don't know what that is, don't worry about it. You're never gonna use it. Also, if you haven't signed up yet, wee bit wiser. Our newsletter is even weer. Gabriel and I are writing it now.

Uh, it's gonna be a two minute read. That's the goal. Something very practical that's gonna change the way you make decisions or think about life. You can check that out at Jordan harbinger.com/news Show notes@jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers discounts ways to support the show at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe and his definitely not Cheeto feet are on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi.

Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. We've got a trailer for our interview with Robert Green, one of the most acclaimed authors of our time. Robert's insight into human nature is second to none, and there's a reason that his books are banned in prisons yet widely read by both scholars and leaders alike.

If we just sit in our inner tube with our hands behind our head and crack open a six pack of beer, the river of dark nature takes us towards that waterfall of the shadow.

[01:04:50] Clip: Yeah, so when we're children, if we weren't educated, if we didn't have teachers or parents telling us to study, we'd be these monsters.

We're all flawed. I believe we humans naturally feel envy. It's the chimpanzee in us. It's been shown that primates are very attuned to other animals in their clan, and they're constantly comparing themselves. You dislike of that fellow artist or that other podcaster? 99% sure that it comes from a place of envy.

For sure. You are not a rational being rationality is something you earn. It's a struggle. It takes effort. It takes awareness. You have to go through steps. You have to see your biases. When you think you're being rational, you're not being rational at all. You go around, everything is personal. Oh, why did he say that?

Why is my mom telling me this? And I'm telling you it's not personal. That's the liberating fact. People are wrapped up in their own emotions, their own traumas. So you need to be aware that people have their own inner reality. People are not nearly as happy and successful as you think they are.

Acknowledging that you have a dark side, that you have a shadow, that you're not such a great person as you think can actually be a very liberating feeling, and there are ways to take that shadow and that darkness and kind of turn it into something

[01:06:15] Jordan Harbinger: else. If you wanna learn more about how to read others and even yourself, be sure to check out episode one 17 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.