How do you overcome your abusive father’s harassment and protect yourself from his unhinged, unwelcome intrusions in the future? Welcome to Feedback Friday!
And in case you didn’t already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at firstname.lastname@example.org. Now let’s dive in!
On This Week’s Feedback Friday, We Discuss:
- How do you overcome your abusive father’s harassment and protect yourself from his unhinged, unwelcome intrusions in the future? [Thanks to executive security manager George Grant for helping us with this one!]
- Should you endure the discomfort of working alongside a sleazy colleague who sleeps with every woman he can, or actively seek new employment despite being a few months away from your degree?
- Should you step down as best man for kicking a disrespectful jerk of a guest out of your friend’s bachelor party?
- You assumed you and your significant other of six years would eventually marry, but since neither of you wants kids, you’ve been told there’s no point in “getting the government involved” in your lives. Is it time for you to cut your losses and search for someone who is willing to make a real commitment?
- If your feathers have been ruffled by something we’ve said on this show, is it possibly a sign they were in need of being ruffled?
- Have any questions, comments, or stories you’d like to share with us? Drop us a line at email@example.com!
- Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.
- Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi.
Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider leaving your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!
Please Scroll Down for Featured Resources and Transcript!
Please note that some of the links on this page (books, movies, music, etc.) lead to affiliate programs for which The Jordan Harbinger Show receives compensation. It’s just one of the ways we keep the lights on around here. Thank you for your support!
This Episode Is Sponsored By:
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- Conversations with Coleman: Listen here or wherever you find fine podcasts!
Miss our conversation with elite counterterrorism undercover agent Tamer Elnoury? Catch up with episode 572: Tamer Elnoury | Undercover with a Muslim FBI Agent here!
Resources from This Episode:
- Lawns | Skeptical Sunday | Jordan Harbinger
- Michael Easter | Rewiring Your Scarcity Brain in a World of Excess | Jordan Harbinger
- Dan Ariely | Why Rational People Believe Irrational Things | Jordan Harbinger
- Let It Stay Here (Short 2023) | IMDb
- The Deadly Legacy of Landmines | UN News
- George Grant | Instagram
- Protective Orders vs. Restraining Orders: What’s the Difference? | The Carlson Law Firm
- Gavin de Becker | The Gift of Fear Part One | Jordan Harbinger
- Gavin de Becker | The Gift of Fear Part Two | Jordan Harbinger
- Joe Navarro | How to Identify and Protect Yourself from Harmful People | Jordan Harbinger
- Antoine Dodson ‘Hide Yo Kids, Hide Yo Wife’ Interview (Original) | Crazy Laugh Action
- Torsheedeh: The Significance of Being a Sour Iranian Woman | The Markaz Review
- Is a Hefty Health Professional a Hippocratic Hypocrite? | Feedback Friday | Jordan Harbinger
- “A Sign of Emotional Intelligence…” | Adam Grant, Twitter
- Scott Lyons | Overcoming an Addiction to Drama | Jordan Harbinger
904: Ditching Bad Dad Would Make You So Glad | Feedback Friday
[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, a guy who, well, just finished his first short film as a director this week. No vicious roast today, Gabriel. You get the day off. Congratulations.
[00:00:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Thank you. Appreciate that.
[00:00:17] Jordan Harbinger: On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from arms dealers and drug traffickers to Russian spies, investigative journalists, and rocket scientists.
[00:00:41] This week, we had Michael Easter on Scarcity Brain. Of course, we overdo it with food, but we also overdo it with information. We do it with status, we do it with shopping. Really interesting conversation where I talked a little bit too much. Must have been hyper. Maybe speaking of overdoing it, I probably had a little bit too much caffeine. Super interesting conversation with him. And, returning to the show, Dan Ariely about misbelief, conspiracy theories, why people believe the crazy things that they believe, like the hollow earth or that there's reptile people or other just absolutely bonkers stuff. He had a crazy personal experience with it and he's one of the top sort of preeminent social scientists, behavioral economists of our day. So we had a really great conversation about that. I just love episodes where we can really dig into a topic deeply like that. I think we had a great week here and I know that you'll enjoy those if you haven't heard those episodes yet.
[00:01:30] On Fridays, though, we share stories, we take listener letters, we offer advice, we play obnoxious soundbites, and usually we mercilessly roast Gabe for being a walking LA cliché.
[00:01:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Although you did kind of already do that by saying congratulations on your film, so—
[00:01:43] Jordan Harbinger: True.
[00:01:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: I am no less a cliché this week.
[00:01:46] Jordan Harbinger: It was one foot in, one foot out. Speaking of which, Gabe, I was thinking about how you made fun of me the other week for always getting into trouble in foreign countries for, like, peeing in the wrong place.
[00:01:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Always. You're always peeing in the wrong places.
[00:01:57] Jordan Harbinger: I do have a small bladder. That's part of the problem. But not one, but two other urine-related stories came to mind as a result.
[00:02:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Great. Let's hear them. What happened?
[00:02:05] Jordan Harbinger: A long time ago, I rented what would now be an Airbnb, but back then was just renting a place online in Croatia. And I was going up, hiking in these ruins and stuff. There's all these cool structures and I was like, "There's nobody up here. This is really cool." And we came back down the host was like, "What did you do today?" He was like a cop, but I got a feeling he was also like an organized crime guy because I remember the police would always wave and he's like, "I am the police." And I was like, "But you're not really a cop because you don't work anywhere. And you're like this old fat, out-of-shape guy."
[00:02:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:34] Jordan Harbinger: "But maybe you are, what do I know?" But he kept joking that he was the police. So 20/20 hindsight, I think maybe he was an organized crime or retired cop. I'm not really entirely sure.
[00:02:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Great Airbnb host to have.
[00:02:44] Jordan Harbinger: Great Airbnb host, yeah. I told him what I did that day, and he's like, "Oh, don't go up there. It's really dangerous up there." And I was like, "Oh, it's fine." You know, I thought he meant because the mountain was steep, and it really was. And those ruins were old. And it's like, you're out over these old stone bridges and stuff. And I'm like, you could definitely fall off this thing and die.
[00:03:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:02] Jordan Harbinger: So I was like, "Oh, whatever. I'm young and invincible, and I'll be careful." And then I went up the next day and he's like, "What'd you do?" And I was like, "Yeah, I know you told me not to go up there on the ruins, but I wanted to go check out a hike up that mountain. And then, I hiked back down." And he's like, "No, I told you not to go up there." I was like, "No, no, no. I stayed off the ruins this time." He's like, "No, the ruins, those are fine. That's the safest part of the hill. There's landmines up there."
[00:03:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Great.
[00:03:23] Jordan Harbinger: And I was like, "Oh. I was in, essentially, a minefield?" And I was like, "Well, how do you know there are landmines up there? Like this is an urban legend. Come on, I'm fine." He goes, "No, I put those landmines up there with my squad during the civil war. I know where they are. You're right in the middle of the minefield."
[00:03:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Are you serious? He knows exactly where they are.
[00:03:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I mean, well, as much as you can remember where you put landmines.
[00:03:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, wow.
[00:03:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, so he's like, no, that's right where I put many landmines and we did not take those out.
[00:03:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Don't you hate it when you book an Airbnb with a guy who placed landmines?
[00:03:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:03:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Walking distance.
[00:03:55] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I mean, it was an ambitious walk. He was probably not expecting anybody to go up there.
[00:03:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel like he should have a sign in the kitchen or something.
[00:04:02] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:04:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Just letting people know.
[00:04:03] Jordan Harbinger: Things to do.
[00:04:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: And not to do.
[00:04:06] Jordan Harbinger: Here's the cybercafe, here's the minefield. Yeah, I don't know what that has to do with urine other than that I did go to the bathroom on my hike in the minefield.
[00:04:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow.
[00:04:14] Jordan Harbinger: And then, when I was in Bosnia, you know, also part of the former Yugoslavia, I got out of the car, and my friends were kind of like sleeping, it was a long drive, and I got out and I ran—
[00:04:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: You went to pee.
[00:04:24] Jordan Harbinger: —out of the car, over the side of the road, walking to the field, and my friends start yelling at me, and I thought they were just harassing me because I was peeing on the side of the road for like the thirteenth time, on a three-hour car ride. And, they're like, "Hey, come back, come back, be careful, don't run, just be careful, walk back," and I was like, "All right, fine," so I finish going, and I walk back, and I step over the chain, and they're like, "Dude, look at the chain." And I was like, "What?" And on the chain, there's this rusty, almost completely illegible sign.
[00:04:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:55] Jordan Harbinger: Because it's an old sign and it's swinging sort of like squeakily from this old rusty chain.
[00:05:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Great.
[00:05:00] Jordan Harbinger: And it says, "Danger mines," in Serbian or Bosnian.
[00:05:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Of course.
[00:05:04] Jordan Harbinger: So I peed in that minefield. I'm hoping they got rid of those, but it's like a rural area between villages on the side of the road. They didn't get rid of that sign. There's almost no way they got rid of the landmines too, right? They just got rid of the landmines and they left the rusty chain in the sign. I don't know about that.
[00:05:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. That sounds like a very active minefield. And where was the Airbnb near this?
[00:05:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, yeah. I don't know if we stated a rental on this particular trip. So, that was, I mean, look, I don't know if they still have those mines there. I would assume not, because it's been 20 years since that trip. My bladder has not increased in size, for those who are wondering.
[00:05:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's the question everyone's wondering, Jordan.
[00:05:41] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:05:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: But, I mean, aren't those landmines still active in Cambodia? And Vietnam?
[00:05:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, they are. And it's been, what, 40 years since those?
[00:05:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.
[00:05:48] Jordan Harbinger: Those things never really expire. I don't know. It just seems like these days pulling your wiener out in public literally or figuratively. I mean, it's a minefield. Am I right? Thanks a lot bin Laden
[00:06:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: All right, you don't do politics on this show.
[00:06:03] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's right.
[00:06:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's very uncomfortable.
[00:06:05] Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?
[00:06:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I grew up with an abusive father, the most malicious human I've ever met. When I became a teenager, my mom left with my sister and me. It's been a long road to heal, but I feel like I'm on my way. I just graduated high school with multiple awards, which has allowed me to go to a college that I once only dreamed of. And I've secured an online job that'll pay for what's left over after scholarships.
[00:06:29] Wow. Amazing.
[00:06:30] Jordan Harbinger: Incredible. Especially growing up with a parent like this, succeeding in spite of that. Proud of you.
[00:06:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: But my father hasn't left us alone. For example, when some of my mom's relatives moved into town, he sent flyers to the entire neighborhood to quote, "Beware of this man," unquote—
[00:06:45] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.
[00:06:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: —referring to one of them in an attempt to make everyone's lives miserable. This is just one example and I could go on for paragraphs. I've been protected from my father by my mother up until now, so I'm starting to get nervous about going out into the world on my own. I've told my dad that I don't want to speak to him, but he doesn't care. He's always sent letters and after the first few, I just ignored them. But recently, he sent someone into the store I work at to reach out, and then came in personally while I was with customers and my coworkers were around. It left me panic-stricken, and my manager was nice enough to let me have a break while I recovered. There isn't really a limit to what he'll do if he gets upset — unsolicited visits, stalking, or something worse. In the past, he even hired private investigators to spy on and track my family. Although, admittedly, that one's hard to prove. I want to be able to live my life without having to look over my shoulder every second or having someone follow me. Restraining orders have long expired, and I don't know if they could be put in place again. How do I best handle my father if/when something else happens? Signed, Developing The Chops to Deal With This Crazy Pops.
[00:07:57] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, this is a sad story and I'm very sorry that this was your dad. He sounds like a real piece of work. I'm so glad your mom got out of there with you guys, that was a great move. But I hear you that he's still very much a problem. And I'm sure having him pop up in your life again is pretty scary. You know, you just kind of think, maybe he's gone forever. We've learned to run all this by an expert. So we had a quick chat with George Grant, executive security manager at a major corporation and friend of the show. George has run personal protection for high net worth families that, you know, everyone's heard of kind of people. So he really knows his stuff when it comes to security.
[00:08:31] And George's recommendation when it comes to nonviolent stalkers, like your dad, is, first of all, always ignore their unsolicited contact attempts which you're already doing, that's great, just do not engage ever. Nothing good comes of that usually. And even if you argue back and tell them to piss off, it just fans the flames. You want to suck the oxygen out of the equation here. His second recommendation, take all the legal measures possible. So, if your dad trespasses on your property, report it. If you can get a new restraining order/order of protection, get one.
[00:09:04] As we've talked about on the show before, you don't need a lawyer for this. The paperwork is relatively easy. You might even have enough evidence to prove there's a pattern of threats, stalking, et cetera to get any one of these taken out. It's usually not a waste of time to do so. And if your dad continues bothering you in person or harasses you, threatens you, your family in any way, report everything he does to the police. When it happens, don't wait six months and be like, here's the following 25 things that have happened. Document it. Make sure you know what date, time, place, everything, and report it right away. Don't say, "Oh, he's been coming by a bunch." That doesn't mean squat. The cops are going to think you're exaggerating.
[00:09:39] George's last piece of advice. Take basic personal protection measures. That means maintaining your general awareness, keeping the old head on a swivel, staying alert, make sure you're not putting yourself in compromising positions. I know you want to be able to live your life without having to look over your shoulder every second, but unfortunately, there might be a period where you have to. You can't control your dad, you can control how you take care of yourself.
[00:10:03] Also, George recommends checking in with friends when you're running late or even FaceTiming with somebody while you do things like walk alone in secluded areas at night, which you probably should not be doing right now anyways, or ever. I know these seem like basic tactics, like really basic, and people are like, "Oh thanks, look behind me when I'm walking in an alleyway," but George recommends this stuff to people all the time. This stuff can save you.
[00:10:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Super sound advice. So that's the physical safety aspect of his question. But Jordan, I think the deeper question that he's getting out of here is, how do I stay safe from my dad mentally, emotionally? I mean, look, dude, you're 17 or maybe 18 years old. You're just starting the first chapter of your life as an adult. And your dad clearly still has the power to freak you out when he shows up. And you've been protected by your mom up until now. Now you're nervous about going out into the world on your own. And that all makes perfect sense. You've only dealt with your dad as a child, essentially. Now you're having to figure out how to handle him as an adult, and largely on your own.
[00:11:00] So my general advice to you is keep reminding yourself that your dad does not ultimately have the power to derail your big plans for your life, no matter how hard he tries. I mean, look at what you've accomplished so far — the college you got into when you didn't think you could, the job that you've held down despite him showing up and scaring you. We're talking about a very troubled, desperate, possibly/probably unhinged guy—
[00:11:26] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: —who cannot understand why you guys would want distance from him. So his attempts to get your attention really have no bearing on how you should feel about yourself or your prospects or your ability to keep moving forward despite whatever he's doing. And I think you already know that, but I just want you to hear that from someone else. And I say this not to minimize how scary this must be but just to remind you that you still have to live your life and pursue your goals as if he were not part of this equation. You cannot give this guy one more ounce of mental energy than he absolutely requires to deal with. He has actively worked to make your life harder, so do not let him succeed in that again by fixating on this guy any more than is necessary.
[00:12:05] Jordan Harbinger: I completely agree. He's doing so well. I'd hate for him to be weighed down by this.
[00:12:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.
[00:12:11] Jordan Harbinger: Again, so sorry that you're dealing with this nonsense.
[00:12:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Augh.
[00:12:14] Jordan Harbinger: Your dad, man, just cannot read the room, but he clearly has some serious issues, and sadly he might wrestle with them forever. I mean, that just might be his thing that he has to deal with all the time. So you need to be very disciplined about how you take care of yourself, how you respond to him or don't respond to him at all, and most importantly, the space that you allow him, the real estate you allow him to take up in your mind, your psyche, your life.
[00:12:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:39] Jordan Harbinger: I do think that'll become easier over time as you realize that you can handle him on your own just fine when you have to slash just gives up when he sees that sending you creepy ass zodiac style letters and cornering you at work is not having the desired effect which is what I hope happens.
[00:12:55] I would also go back and listen to my interview with Gavin de Becker on The Gift of Fear. That was episode 329 and 330. A lot of women have been like, "This is my favorite episode I've ever heard on your show."
[00:13:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.
[00:13:05] Jordan Harbinger: And there's a Joe Navarro episode on keeping safe from predators. That was episode 135. And if memory serves, one of the biggest bits of info there was never reply to anything at all ever from a predator because they are there for the fanning of the flames and if you don't do that they often move on to other targets.
[00:13:22] Now, you're his child so that might be a little bit of a different thing for him but I would imagine the psychology still applies. In the meantime, keep up the incredible work my dude, throw yourself into college, work hard, keep building a big and exciting life for yourself, you are doing so well. We are rooting for you.
[00:13:37] And Gabe, man, it's funny, I'm just picturing him mailing his dad a copy of the new restraining order, but like, OG ransom note style, with all the letters cut out from different magazines, like, "Here you go dad, here's a language maybe you can finally understand."
[00:13:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: And that's a way to deliver an order of protection with style. Can you imagine? I like it.
[00:13:54] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. But you know, even a restraining order signed by a judge can't stop the crazy good deals on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.
[00:14:07] This episode is sponsored in part by BetterHelp. Have you ever been lying in bed, cozying up to dreamland when your mind decides it's the perfect time to replay every awkward conversation or regrettable interaction you've ever had? You know what I'm talking about, right? I'm not the only one who does this. So, what's the solution? Talking it out, my friends. But not just to anyone, not your friends. They're sick of hearing about it. Plus, they were there for that awkward thing. They don't want to relive that. Talk to a qualified professional who can actually help you break these relentless cycles. This is where BetterHelp comes in. It's not a let's chat about your week sort of thing. It's legit therapy, but with the convenience of connecting from wherever you are. A lot of people are doing it from random places in the world. Here's why it's awesome. You're paired with a licensed therapist tailored to your specific needs. You can message them anytime. Yes, even during those 2 a.m. mental marathons. BetterHelp is more affordable than traditional in person therapy, plus financial aid is available. So, if you want to tame that overactive brain of yours, you want to find some peace both mentally and emotionally, give BetterHelp a shot. It's worked for me, and it could work for you too.
[00:15:03] Jen Harbinger: Get a break from your thoughts with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/jordan to get 10 percent off your first month. That's Better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan.
[00:15:11] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Wrkout. I want to tell you all about Wrkout. This is my virtual personal trainer. I don't mean like an AI person. This is a company owned by my buddy. It's one of the best things I've ever done for myself. Wrkout is like having a personal coach in your pocket. Even Jen's on board now, training three times a week for the past three months. She's made amazing progress, focusing on getting back to her pre-baby body. My 82-year-old mom, she's not just exercising, she's forged a solid friendship with her trainer, which let me tell you, at her age, is a game changer. Just having a young person to talk to all the time that's also making you move. As for me, four sessions a week with Chad and Kareem. They even keep tabs on my heart rate in real time. Because you can wear a heart rate monitor. It sends it to them while they watch you on your laptop working out. And I am sore every single day. So this stuff, it works. I'm getting results. They use a virtual timer. The workouts are always changing. It's really just, you can't do this stuff on your own. And you don't have to have a trainer meet you at the gym where you are, paying local prices. These guys are in Canada, I'm just saying, if you're in the United States, you get that exchange rate discount. But here's the cherry on top, flexibility at its finest. We're talking about real training, even when you're on the road. So, you don't have to find a gym, or skip a session because you're traveling, your trainer comes with you. I bring my laptop and I'm like, all I got is a hotel room with a chair and a bed and some luggage, and they will make the workout and guide me through it while I am there. All you need is Wi-Fi and your laptop or your phone. So if you're serious about making a change, you got to try it out. Go to community.wrkout.com. It's community-W-R-K-O-U-T.com.
[00:16:38] Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps the lights on around here. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com/deals. And you can search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support the show.
[00:16:55] Now, back to Feedback Friday.
[00:16:58] Okay, next up.
[00:17:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys, a few years ago, a distant friend of a friend got me a job as a salesman at a painting company. He's a sales rep alongside me. And, long story short, he's a single guy who likes to screw every woman he can get his hands on. His family is close with the owner of the company, and they're also friends with the owner's ex-wife, who, I recently learned, this colleague of mine slept with. The owner brags about this guy, saying he's the greatest salesman, and that he's grown so much since he's been at this company. Meanwhile, He's raw-dogging this guy's ex.
[00:17:34] Jordan Harbinger: Oh god.
[00:17:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's all BS. The same guy was also just in an entanglement with one of our other friends who was also married.
[00:17:42] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man.
[00:17:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: I am very good at my job. I'm $200,000 over my sales goal for the year, but I'm not crazy about the job. I'm at the point where I'm aggressively looking for other ones, but I still don't feel like I can check all the boxes for the jobs I want because I don't have a degree yet. I actually graduate in four months. I don't want to work at the same company as this guy. I don't want him in my life, and I don't want to think about what he did every time I walk into the office. Do I stay and keep my mouth shut? Do I blow the whistle and watch it all blow up, which isn't really an option for me because I'm not evil? Or do I hunt aggressively for a new job? Signed, A Salesman Hitting His Quota On All These Shenanigans.
[00:18:26] Jordan Harbinger: Right, so you work with a slimy dude who has a flexible moral compass, shall we say, and you don't like this guy, that's clear. But he also did you this solid by getting you the job, so that puts you in a bit of a tough spot. I get why it's confusing, but honestly, I'm just not sure that his extracurricular activities are any of your business. Yes, it's shady. Yes, it's uncomfortable. Yes, this guy probably has STDs. You're not wrong to be skeezed out by this, but it's not directly impacting your work. It's not taking place in the office. Maybe it doesn't involve you in any way. This is between this jabroni, the ex-wife, and the boss.
[00:19:02] Now, if you were super close with your boss, which I don't get the sense that you are, I might say, "Eh, you might want to consider telling him as his friend, but that's not the case here." And even if it were, this still isn't really your business.
[00:19:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also it's his ex-wife, right?
[00:19:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's the boss's ex.
[00:19:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: So it's still pretty unsavory. I mean, this other colleague is definitely playing with fire here, but I mean, she is free to carry on with whomever she wants, right? She's not cheating on her husband at this point.
[00:19:28] Jordan Harbinger: Right, I doubt the boss would appreciate his favorite employee secretly banging his ex-wife, but you're right, this is a couple of rungs below wildly unethical and despicable, and more in the uh, it's a little uncomfortable territory.
[00:19:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.
[00:19:41] Jordan Harbinger: Again, your relationship with your boss determines a lot, but also you're not crazy about this job, like you said, even though you're insanely good at it. 200 grand over your target, I mean that's bananas dude, good for you, that's a lot of paint jobs. And you're graduating college in four months at which point you're going to be a much stronger candidate for the jobs that you actually do want. And you might need a reference from this boss who you don't need hating you.
[00:20:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.
[00:20:03] Jordan Harbinger: So if I were in your shoes, I'd stay, I'd keep your head down, I'd focus on your career search. All this energy you're expending worrying about this guy would be much better spent finishing up strong in school, building strong relationships, interviewing for new jobs.
[00:20:19] Now, you could tip off your boss. But it sounds like that would make you the bad guy, even in your own opinion. And frankly, yeah, I think it could invite some blowback for you. The guy could retaliate. He could poison the well in the office, but whatever you do, yes, you should be hunting aggressively for a new job because that's your real goal here. No matter how this sorted little subplot plays out. So do your Six-Minute Networking, use it as fuel to build the relationships you need and channel all this anxiety and anger into your degree and into your career. That's my take. Just forget all this sideshow drama.
[00:20:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: I could not agree more. I'm just curious to know why this guy gets under his skin so much.
[00:20:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:20:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, it's not wrong to be worked up. It's uncomfortable to work in an office where there's this bomb that could go off at any moment. But it sounds like there's something about this guy that uniquely triggers him and he has trouble compartmentalizing his feelings about this guy at work. Part of me, Jordan, wonders if he resents having to work next to a guy who gets all this praise from his boss while he's secretly sleeping with the guy's ex and also other people's wives too. Let's not forget that little fact. And meanwhile, our friend here is quietly $200,000 over his sales target, with no additional praise and no additional compensation. And he's decidedly not sleeping with anybody's wife.
[00:21:36] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. He's pissed. I get it. He's walking into the office every day going, "Really, this guy, what's wrong with this place? What's wrong with everybody here?" And to be fair, that is hard to compartmentalize.
[00:21:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Just one more reason for him to focus on the job search. I mean, find a company with higher standards, better people and work that he actually cares about.
[00:21:54] Jordan Harbinger: Amen, man. Hopefully, you'll be out of there before the news gets out, which it always kind of has a way of doing. Although Dark Jordan kind of hopes it happens while you're still there so you can get the satisfaction of watching this clown crash and burn and get some comeuppance. I think it would just be really tasty to see that. But if your boss does find out while you're there, I still think you should keep your head down. Again, it's a sideshow. The main show is your performance and your job search. That situation is radioactive, even if you're like, "Boss, I want, I hate telling you this, but da da da." You're still going to get radiated, being anywhere near this thing. Just knowing about it, it's bad for you, okay? So, sloppy Casanova over there, he's on his own path toward termination, I would imagine, and or punch in the face and a mean case of gonorrhea, whichever comes first. It sounds like that dude gets around.
[00:22:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: It does sound like that. Hide your kids, hide your wife.
[00:22:45] Jordan Harbinger: Hide your kids, hide your wife. Good reference there, man. Maybe just your wife. There was nothing about him going after kids in the story, but I love a good 2009 reference, Gabe.
[00:22:54] Soundbite: He's clamming in your windows, he's snatching your people up, so y'all need to hide your kids, hide your wife.
[00:23:00] Jordan Harbinger: Antoine Dodson would allege.
[00:23:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh man, that is a classic. That one is aging like fine wine, I have to say.
[00:23:07] Jordan Harbinger: It really is. Thanks, Antoine.
[00:23:09] You can reach us firstname.lastname@example.org. Please keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, you slept with your friend's partner while they were away, or you just found out your best friends are swingers, and you don't know how to bring it up, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up email@example.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous.
[00:23:31] Okay. What's next?
[00:23:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, one of my close friends recently asked me to be the best man at his wedding in the Philippines. I kind of feel like I'm his only friend who can even afford to travel that far for the wedding, and that's probably a big part of why he chose me as the best man. I threw an extravagant bachelor party at a huge place with a fishing excursion and divided the cost among all 10 of his friends. Three, he said they couldn't make it. And I'm well off enough that I decided to just eat the cost. I texted the group a month before explaining that I needed to reserve spots on boats, and even though everyone was invited, regardless of whether they could pitch in, only those who pitched in 250 would have a spot on the bay boats to go fishing. Everyone agreed and asked to reserve a spot. One guy, however, never sent in the money. He texted me a week before the trip, informing me that he couldn't make it. I told him not to worry about it, but the day before the fishing trip, he texted me saying he would make it. The spot was already reserved, so I said, "What the hell, come fishing with us." When he arrived, tension began to build because he and two other guests were not helping out with cooking or cleaning. The other two, who did pay, eventually did pitch in. Once dinner was over, I told this guy, "Hey man, you haven't contributed to cooking or cleaning yet, so you need to clean up the dinner mess. I'll even help you out." We started cleaning the kitchen together, then I went outside to collect my fishing equipment. When I came back in, he was chilling on the couch, messing around on his phone. I was infuriated. I asked him what the hell he was doing, and he said he wasn't going to clean up other people's messes.
[00:25:10] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh. This guy sounds like a top-shelf tool. What an a-h*le? So entitled, so thoughtless. I just, ah, I have a really hard time with people like this. So I get why you were angry. This is the guy who always makes a big group of events go sideways. It's so frustrating these people even exist.
[00:25:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: I reminded him that he owed me 250 bucks, and he was the only person here not to pay or contribute. He said he would pay me the $250 right then, but he was not going to clean.
[00:25:36] Oh, cool, so he did have the money, he just didn't want to pay it?
[00:25:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:25:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: He doesn't want to help even though he almost stiffed this guy completely and came on the trip anyway. Cool, cool, cool.
[00:25:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this guy's a real class act. This guy's such a loser. The nerve.
[00:25:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: I told him that wasn't an option. His options were to pay the 250 and help me clean, pay me 350 and I would clean up for him. Or, get the f*ck out of the place we were staying in. He started grabbing his things to leave.
[00:26:02] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:26:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: This fight is getting intense, so I told him, "Fine, grab your sh*t and get the f*ck out of here then, but I don't want to hear from you or see you again." He left. We had all been drinking, but I didn't tell him to drive home. He could have slept in his car. Still, I feel a little guilty, especially since I pretty much blew up the end of my buddy's bachelor party. Afterward, he told me I could have handled it better, and said the whole thing left a bad taste in his mouth. Did I overstep here? Was I wrong for kicking this guy out? Since my buddy feels that I handled it so poorly, should I resign as his best man? Signed, A Best Man Finessing This Guest Man, But Ruining My Friend's Plans.
[00:26:42] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, well, this is awkward just to hear about. I can't even imagine what it was like to be at this bachelor party. And I'm sorry this guy created so many problems for you. It is 100 percent not cool. This guy sounds like a total douche and like I said, I just don't have any patience for people who aren't decent enough to pay their bills and pitch in their fair share. It's not a lot to ask. I have zero doubt that you are in the right. It is so immature to be like, "I wonder if I can get away with not paying and I'm above cleaning." Like are you 12-year-old boy? Only the most emotionally stunted people try to pull stuff like this. I do kind of love that you kicked the guy out, which he's so richly deserved.
[00:27:22] But at a bachelor party where people are staying overnight and you just want to create a fun weekend for your boy, I do think there was probably a better way to handle this guy. You could have left the room for a few minutes, calmed down, maybe chatted with your friend about how to respond, and then tried things a different way. You could have said, "Look, man, I can see you don't want to clean, I know it's a drag, all of us are pitching in, it would be awesome if you would too." And if he still puts up a fight, you could have said, "Hey, I'm going to be honest, I find this behavior really frustrating, it's unfair to everybody else. It's not really in the spirit of the weekend we're trying to have here. Are you sure this is how you want to act at our friend's bachelor party?" You know, just kind of gently shame him a little bit, make him see himself more objectively.
[00:28:03] And if he straight up refused to help after that, then it might've said something like, "Okay, I see you're not going to help. So I'm just going to say the fact that you haven't paid and you're refusing to pitch in. It's really uncool, not my place to give you a lecture or whatever, but real talk, you are acting like an a-h*le right now." And now that I say this, honestly, I might not have even said that last part at the bachelor party itself.
[00:28:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.
[00:28:26] Jordan Harbinger: I might have just kept my mouth shut, gotten some people to help me pick up the slack, and then told him that once you guys were heading home, if ever, just to keep the peace. But anyway, those are a few ways you could have communicated your frustration to this guy without setting him off. Again, not that he didn't deserve that and more.
[00:28:42] In my experience, when somebody says something like that really calmly. It makes so much more of an impact because then it's not like, "Oh, yeah, you're mad because I won't clean up your crap." It's like, "No, this is not an emotional reaction. This is actually what this person thinks about me. So I better listen. It's just, I'm calmly telling you that you are being a POS. And everyone else can see it. You're not even getting a rise out of me. I'm just telling you you're a man-child." Although now that I'm thinking about it, here's the thing. People like this, they often have no shame. Their emotional intelligence is through the floor. They just have absolutely no self-awareness, so it was probably always a losing game.
[00:29:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, yeah. Good point, Jordan. But also, this was his friend's bachelor party, not his.
[00:29:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:29:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: So, I think, ultimately, it should have been up to that guy to decide if somebody should be kicked out.
[00:29:28] Jordan Harbinger: I agree. If this was me I might have gone to the groom and been like, "Okay, Greg's being a dick. He didn't pay. He stiffed me on that. Now, he's refusing to help wash any dishes because he's above helping. So part of me wants to yell and tell him to pay up or leave. But you know, look, your call. I don't want to overreact. You want him gone. You cool with him staying. How do we handle this?" And then, let your friend tell you what to do because it's his party, he gets to decide, he might not have even noticed that was going on.
[00:29:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: I might have also just let this go because to me, keeping a good vibe is probably more important than trying to teach this caveman how to behave in a group setting, but that's also just me.
[00:30:02] Jordan Harbinger: I think I'm with you on that, right? Especially because like I said, he's not going to be able to teach this grown-ass man how to act right. That would have happened decades ago, depending on how old these guys are. I also wouldn't have thrown out the whole "pay me 350 and I'll clean up for you" thing. I think, something about putting a price on the help, Gabe, I'm going to go and assume a detail that we don't have. This guy's successful, right? The writer.
[00:30:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.
[00:30:24] Jordan Harbinger: I'm going to assume the other guy is a loser and has nothing because he's acting like a loser who's not a successful person in any way, shape, or form. And I'm filling in a lot of blanks here that we don't have any info for. But I'm going to go throw that out there and be like. Something about putting a price on the help, turning it into one of the guy's options where he has to get the eff out, something about that rubs me the wrong way, and I think it probably rubbed that guy the wrong way, and it set his ego up where he had to be like, "Fine, I'm leaving." He left the weekend rather than like, wash a dish. I mean, what a turd.
[00:30:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, not quite. He was kicked out. The guy said, "Get the eff out," and he didn't leave on his own accord. He was pushed out.
[00:31:00] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, but he could have just washed, he could have been like, "Fine, I'll wash the dishes, but only because you're going to kick me out, you jerk."
[00:31:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.
[00:31:05] Jordan Harbinger: You know, he could have fought back, but instead, he was like, "I'm not going to wash a plate. I'm leaving. Drunk in my car."
[00:31:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know what, I'm actually really glad you brought this up, because there is a layer to this story about money, and that can be very sensitive to navigate, especially in a group setting where, like you said, there are people of all different types who have different associations with this stuff.
[00:31:23] I thought it was interesting that at the beginning of his letter, he said something like, "I feel like I'm his only friend who can even afford to travel to the wedding and that's probably a big part of why he chose me as the best man." And then when those three other people couldn't make it, he mentioned that he's well off enough to eat the cost on this very extravagant weekend that he planned.
[00:31:41] Now, there is obviously nothing wrong with this guy being successful. He does not need to apologize for that. I'm happy that he's doing well and honestly, he sounds very generous with his money, which is awesome. But I find it interesting that he's so aware of his financial situation relative to these other friends and that he feels like a big part of the reason he was chosen as best man in the first place was that he could afford to fly out, which look, maybe that's true. Maybe that isn't. I have no idea. But it sounds like he's defining his role more in terms of the money, the financial stuff than his relationship with the groom.
[00:32:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I found that interesting, too. I can't really get a good read on whether that's actually the case or if that's just How he's looking at things and maybe in the letter.
[00:32:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: It would be interesting for him to ask himself that. But what I do have a strong feeling about is that the money thing could have easily played a role in this conflict with the guy who didn't pitch into your point. Again, I might be assuming things now, but let's just consider the facts. This is the one guy who initially said he couldn't make it and then he decided to come at the last moment, but he never paid it. And now he's being told by the best man, who's clearly doing pretty well in life, to clean up. And when he refuses, the best man puts a price tag on pitching in, which might have come across as, yeah, a little insulting, a little demeaning.
[00:32:53] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: At least not the way he intended. Our friend here said that the tension was building from the moment these guys were not pitching in. But it might have been building even before that if this guy had some feelings about him from the very beginning. So I just think that's something for him to keep in mind. He's done nothing wrong by helping pay for the party and trying to corral everybody. But he might want to be a little more thoughtful about how his financial position might make certain people feel or, you know, how it might color an otherwise perfectly legitimate request for everybody to help out.
[00:33:22] Jordan Harbinger: I might even go a step further and say, I wonder if his financial position did actually play a role in the way he behaved. There was maybe a part of him thinking—
[00:33:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.
[00:33:30] Jordan Harbinger: "Look, I'm the one who ate the cost on the weekend. I'm the one who threw down my credit card for the boats. I'm the one flying all the way to the Philippines. The least you can do is pick up a fricking plate, Greg," and he's not wrong, but his financial situation might have given him a subtle sense of superiority or power that made him feel like he had licensed to rip this guy to shreds and tell him to get the hell out, which is a pretty intense thing to say to somebody in your friend group, even if you are four Moscow mules deep.
[00:33:56] So I'm going to let him decide if that even fits. Maybe I'm the one overstepping now, but this bachelor party is a great opportunity for him to consider what ideas or attitudes he brought to that conflict. And I think that's really important.
[00:34:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm. I could not agree more. So, should you resign as best man? Eh, I don't know if that's necessary, but I would definitely talk to your friend about all of this. See how he feels. If an apology is in order, which I think it might be, then say I'm sorry and maybe consider apologizing to this other guy, too, Greg, I mean. That might sound crazy, but it might be appropriate if you could have handled that moment a little bit better. And then, I would ask your boy if he still wants you as his best man, I'm sure he's going to say yes, but if you continue on, then I would only make decisions that serve him because, again, it's his wedding, and that's really the whole point.
[00:34:42] Jordan Harbinger: That's exactly right, and in the future, maybe just don't get into it with somebody when you're worked up, maybe a little tipsy, it's always a good policy, I know that's when a fight is actually the most fun, but it rarely ends well, have fun at the wedding, you rich bastard. I'm sure you're flying economy and you're not going to cause a scene on the airplane, that's a Greg move right there.
[00:35:00] You know who else needs to get the f*ck out with these incredible deals? The amazing sponsors that support this show. We'll be right back.
[00:35:09] And now, for the reason I'm so fat — this episode is sponsored in part by DoorDash. Jen and I have been using DoorDash for years and for more than just meals, recently sent a thank-you gift to a buddy and even had birthday flowers delivered. But today let's talk groceries. DoorDash is now your one-stop shop for everything from pad thai to pantry staples. Jen and I looked at our account and our Dash Pass. Well, it saved us over $6,000 in fees. That's how often we use DoorDash these days, but it's so handy, especially when our baby thinks the car seat is an instrument of doom and we're essentially homebound. Pick from thousands of local grocery stores and boost your community's economy from your living room, and don't sweat the small stuff. You'll get exactly what you ordered, or they'll make it right. Plus, you can even swap items right in the app. For the cherry on top, DashPass gives you zero delivery fees on eligible orders. So skip the car, skip the lines, and skip the hassle. DoorDash is bringing convenience to your doorstep. Don't miss out. Get 50 percent off your first DoorDash order up to a $20 value when you use code JORDAN at checkout. Limited time offer, terms apply. That's 50 percent off, up to 20 bucks, no minimum subtotal, and zero delivery fees on your first order when you download the DoorDash app in the App Store and enter code JORDAN. Don't forget, that's code JORDAN for 50 percent off your first order with DoorDash.
[00:36:18] This episode is sponsored in part by BiOptimizers. BiOptimizers Magnesium Breakthrough offers a blend of different types of magnesium targeting everything from muscle function to brain health. Regarding absorption, you know, cause it's all about not peeing out things you take that cost money, bioavailability is key. It determines how well your body can actually use the supplement. BiOptimizers Magnesium is engineered for optimal uptake. Are you an athlete or just somebody who hates those sudden jolting leg cramps? Maybe you're pregnant. Magnesium is crucial for muscle function and recovery. When Jen was actually pregnant, she would get leg cramps on days she didn't take magnesium, and it was gnarly. She could barely walk, just really kind of hellish, sudden cramps. It was just night and day taking magnesium. It is a cornerstone as well for bone health. Works hand in hand with calcium and vitamin D for stronger bones. Plus, studies suggest it can help regulate blood pressure. Quality-wise, Bioptimizers places a high premium on purity and accurate labeling, so you know you're getting a top-notch product. I drink a lot of liquids, especially in the hot summer months, I'm working out all the time, I'm outside all the time. If I don't take magnesium, I end up with a lot of cramps, especially post workout. And Magnesium Breakthrough has eliminated a lot of this, almost all of it in fact, in addition to some higher sleep scores on the old sleep tracker, always important with two babies in the bed.
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[00:38:13] Now back to feedback Friday.
[00:38:15] Okay, next up.
[00:38:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe, my boyfriend and I have been together for almost six years. He's 34, I'm 30, and over the last three years, he's been dealing with family stuff that really challenged our relationship. His family hasn't accepted me because I'm not Persian, and his parents guilt him about taking care of them since they sacrificed everything to immigrate here and didn't plan for retirement. All of this on top of the pandemic, which caused him additional stress as he works in healthcare. I'm happy to say that we've come out the other side and he's set some healthy boundaries with his family. Generally speaking, I'd say we're happy. We share a lot of the same goals and interests, and our personalities complement each other nicely. I'm ready to take the next step and move in together, but he's not in a rush. He also recently voiced that he's not interested in ever getting married. Since neither of us want kids, he doesn't see the point in getting the government involved in our relationship. When he said that, I felt like I got punched in the gut because he's the person I want to build a future with. He says he wants me in his, but I don't know how to reconcile his words and his actions. I don't want to keep living separate lives five to six days of the week and only hang out twice a week like we've been doing. I don't feel like I should have to beg my partner to progress, and I don't want to give him an ultimatum. But when I approach the topic, he shuts down and says he can't handle that change at the moment. Is it time for me to cut my losses here? How should I approach this conversation with him? Signed, Stuck On a Bit Where My Dude Won't Commit.
[00:39:51] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, man, I'm sorry you're going through this. I can hear how hard this is for you and I get it. It does suck to really love somebody and you want to be closer. And to know they probably feel the same, but then they can't or won't take the next step. It's a really tough place to be. This is tricky. Because we can't know what your boyfriend thinks or feels. Maybe he feels the exact same way that you do, but just doesn't put as much stock in marriage and living together. Although, that kind of begs the question, why? Cause to your point, putting aside the whole piece of paper, either you guys are together or you're not, either you're merging lives in the way you want to, or you're not. And if he's not willing to do that, then you might be on different pages.
[00:40:32] But the thing that's really standing out to me here is the family element. And I'm not super familiar with Persian culture, but I lived in LA for a while, I got to know a few Persian folks, and my impression was that they are extremely family oriented. And the community can be, not for everyone, not always, but generally, the community can be very insular, like many ethnic communities, I suppose. So, part of me wonders if his family is playing a big role here. They haven't accepted you because you're not Persian, obviously, that's an issue. His parents also guilt him about taking care of them, so they clearly raised him to prioritize them.
[00:41:08] And even if he resents that, even if he disagrees, he might be punting on committing to you because he doesn't want to press the issue with his family, because it's just too daunting. And depending on the family dynamic, this level of pressure, it could be terrifying. Again, I have no idea what he's thinking, but that seems like the obvious explanation.
[00:41:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, that and his general skepticism about marriage as an institution, right? The whole "getting the government involved in our relationship" thing.
[00:41:35] Jordan Harbinger: Honestly, Gabe, I don't know how much I buy that at all, because I'm guessing, coming from this background, he would be pretty keen on marriage, or at least feel the pressure to get married even if he's not a fan of the institution. Look, the guy's 34. He's basically an unmarried grandpa in the eyes of Persian society, especially first-generation immigrants.
[00:41:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right, yeah. He's basically [Torsheedeh].
[00:41:56] Jordan Harbinger: What is [Torsheedeh]?
[00:41:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's this word I just learned in Farsi. I think it literally means pickled. Or, it means like leftovers. So it's like a single person who's kind of past their prime and you kind of feel bad for them. That's [Torsheedeh].
[00:42:09] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, yeah, so her boyfriend is definitely straight up [Torsheedeh] at this point. Not really, obviously, I don't think that. But his family must be going, "Hey, dude, when are you going to settle down?" You know, with a Persian girl or whatever.
[00:42:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: With a little asterisk, because they wanted to be with a Persian girl, right?
[00:42:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.
[00:42:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Because it's part of their culture.
[00:42:23] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly, the little dagger star next to it, whatever. I mean, sure, he could be a black sheep just not interested in getting married at all, but pfft, okay. I could also see that being a very convenient reason to not take the next step with her. Because that's harder to argue with than, "Well, I'm afraid to tell my mom and dad I'm going to marry a white girl who doesn't speak Farsi or can't cook ghormeh sabzi."
[00:42:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Dude, that stuff is so good though, side note. She did say, though, that he set some healthy boundaries with his family, but that doesn't mean that he's completely rejected their values or their expectations for him, right? He could resist his parents' demands and still, in the back of his mind, be very worried about disappointing them.
[00:43:00] Jordan Harbinger: Which is why I'm a little concerned for our friend here. I'm trying to tread lightly because, again, we just don't know what's in her boyfriend's head.
[00:43:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.
[00:43:07] Jordan Harbinger: But neither does she. All she has to go on is his actions. And at the end of the day, they kind of speak for themselves.
[00:43:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: I hear you, but I'm just not sure that this is as simple as you love him more than he loves you and he just doesn't want to commit to you.
[00:43:20] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: But there might be a world where he loves her and he does want a future with her, but he's genuinely caught between her and his family and instead of making a choice one way or the other, he's just slow rolling their relationship and kicking this can down the road because he knows that it's going to be a huge nightmare.
[00:43:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, but I think what she's saying is, hey, what's the difference? Either way, he's choosing his family or himself over her. And meanwhile—
[00:43:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.
[00:43:44] Jordan Harbinger: —they're only hanging out twice a week, which isn't nothing, but it's not a ton when you're in a serious relationship for six freaking years.
[00:43:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, so the parent stuff aside, you're wondering if he's really as pumped about her as she is about him.
[00:43:55] Jordan Harbinger: Kind of, I mean, I know it sucks to hear that. I'm not trying to twist the knife, obviously, but I think she's at a point where she's willing to look at this relationship very honestly. So it is at least something to consider.
[00:44:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, especially because she really does want to be closer and move in together and build their life together. And that's literally not happening after six years.
[00:44:13] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[00:44:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: So it's a, yeah, it's a fair point. But the thing that concerns me the most here is that when she brings this up, he completely shuts down. That to me is, in a way, the ultimate factor.
[00:44:22] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, for sure. This is too big of an issue to be like, "Oh, I just don't want to talk about it. I'm playing Xbox."
[00:44:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: If they can't even talk, even if she's not getting the answers that she wants, then what hope do they have for a really good relationship, not just for this, but for any issue that comes up when they're together.
[00:44:37] Jordan Harbinger: Also, he says, "Oh, I can't handle this change at the moment. COVID's been hard on me." Okay, fine, but at what point does it stop being a moment? It's been six years.
[00:44:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.
[00:44:47] Jordan Harbinger: Three of those years were reasonably like, hey, maybe we should get married or take the next step. This could go on for another three or four years. Suddenly, she spent a decade with a guy who just wants somebody to watch Netflix and he take out ghormeh sabzi twice a week with, you know, and that's it.
[00:45:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a very fair point. So I think you do need to talk about this with your boyfriend, but the agenda should be less, you know, "When are you going to commit to me," and more, "Help me understand what you really want and how you see our future." And in that conversation, you have to make it okay for him to be very honest with you about any reservations he might have, whether it's about his family and what they think of him or you or his values or his feelings about marriage or about you or anything else that comes up because you need to get clear on how much of this is just a difference in beliefs about the traditional markers of a relationship, like moving in together, getting engaged, spending a certain amount of time together every week, or whether he's avoiding something by keeping your relationship where it is.
[00:45:45] And while you do that, I would also get clear with yourself about how much these things truly matter to you and why. These are all perfectly legitimate wants. Don't get me wrong, but it might be worth asking what moving in together or getting engaged to this guy would give you if you're not consistently feeling the same commitment from him because, yes, he could cave and move in with you or pop the question, but if he's fundamentally ambivalent about the relationship, none of those things are going to fix that. If anything, they're just going to make it worse.
[00:46:15] Jordan Harbinger: For sure. She needs to know what's really going on in this guy's mind and in his heart, full stop.
[00:46:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:20] Jordan Harbinger: And I don't know, I mean, if she can get him to honestly come to grips with the question of whether he would pull the trigger if she were Persian, you know, just start crying and ask him that question while he can't escape. Lock the door. And if that doesn't work, get pregnant. Uh, no, I'm kidding. Do not do any of those things.
[00:46:36] But she needs to know what's really on this guy's mind and heart. And I hope that he can be totally honest with her because he really does owe her that at the very least. And then, she'll have all the information she needs to decide if this guy is the right person for her. And if he is, then at some point, he's got to tell his family, "Look, guys, I know she's not the person you pictured me with. But she's the one I want. You guys have to accept it." I mean, it's hard to imagine her staying on the fringes of his life forever—
[00:47:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.
[00:47:03] Jordan Harbinger: —if they're going to have any sort of real future together. So, go find out if you're on the same page there. And then, you'll know what to do, and we're rooting for you.
[00:47:11] Man, it's a tough situation to be in. We only have a little small subset of facts, right, Gabe? But I just can't help but think, if she were Persian, Mom would be like, "When are you getting married? I'm taking her dress shopping right now." You know, we don't know the whole thing?
[00:47:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:24] Jordan Harbinger: But man, if that's the hangup, how do you get past that? The parents have to either come to terms with the fact that that's not necessary, or you need to do something else. You know, he needs to set a hard boundary and if he's only going to try to stay in the middle and sit on the fence, that's only going to work out poorly for you. And I hope his parents and him for that matter, come around. I really do.
[00:47:42] All right. Before we wrap up here, I wanted to talk about something that happens. I would say a decent and increasing amount around here, especially lately, as the show has grown a bunch. And that is people writing in and getting angry about some of our guests and our advice or whatever.
[00:47:59] So look, first of all, we welcome all responses to our show, favorable, unfavorable, neutral. Gabe and I genuinely love hearing how the show lands with different people. And when we discuss the comments we get, sometimes we'll go, "Oh yeah, we totally missed that." Or, "Oh, I could see why somebody took what we said that way." Or sometimes we'll even go, "Wow, we completely got that one wrong. Good to know. Let's do better in the future."
[00:48:24] So when I say I welcome feedback, I really do mean that. We take it seriously. But what happens more often, I'd say is that someone hears something on the show and it's usually just one thing in a 15-minute segment. They're not even responding to the segment or the show as a whole and they get triggered or they twist our words and then they go full keyboard warrior and send me and Gabe an angry email talking about why we're monsters and they're unsubscribing and fine unsubscribe.
[00:48:55] The impulse to outrage, though, I've been thinking about it a lot lately, and I just wanted to talk about that with you guys for just a moment here. So, quick story. A few months ago, we took a question from a person who worked in healthcare, and a number of her colleagues were, by their own admission, not exercising, eating poorly, openly complaining about their appearance, specifically about how they needed to lose weight. And our take was basically, look, it's their choice how they want to live their lives. But if you're close with some of them, then you could respectfully tell them that you are concerned and help them see that they can make better choices and support them in that.
[00:49:31] And that was our advice in a nutshell, not an especially controversial opinion in my view. And not a crazy thing for a doctor to say to another doctor who is openly acknowledging that they are not taking care of themselves. But sure enough, I got a DM from a listener saying she used to listen to the show but she doesn't listen anymore because, and I quote, "You recently advised a man who wrote in to express an opinion at his new job about a co-worker's eating habits," which, first of all, I found that very interesting because the doctor who wrote in to us wasn't a man. She was a woman. But this listener assumed that it was a man. And I can't help but feel that that was because it fit a certain narrative she had in her head about how some chauvinistic blowhard telling a woman in his office that she's overweight and that supported her grievance better. But anyway, that's a footnote, that's a detail. More importantly, when I responded to this listener's DM, I said, "So just to be clear, you disagreed with a piece of advice, so you ditched and unsubscribed from the whole show?" And her response was, and I'm quoting her again, "When you're shaming an entire sector of a population, yes, people listen to you, and you come across as fat shaming. You told a man," which again, not a man, but whatever, "You told a man whose advice was not sought to give advice to somebody based on your belief that overweight people need to be fixed."
[00:50:49] And I just find that response very puzzling, everybody, okay? Because we never shamed an entire sector of the population. If anything, Gabe and I encouraged this listener to be very thoughtful and very compassionate about the way she approached her colleagues, knowing that it would be a difficult topic. Also, these colleagues themselves were complaining about their weight, they were eating poorly in the office, and then openly cracking jokes about how they refused to exercise. It wasn't like Gabe and I heard the story and went, "Oh, you work with a bunch of fat people? It's up to you to tell them to put down the Egg McMuffin and hit the treadmill, lol."
[00:51:25] Look, if we were fat shaming by agreeing these are not healthy choices, which is, frankly, a matter of nutritional science, not culture, then it must also be true that these colleagues were fat shaming themselves, right, which I'm pretty sure that's not a thing. But more relevantly, are we now saying that encouraging people to eat better and stay active is fat shaming? Are we now at a place in our culture where a doctor can't tell another doctor, "Hey, if you don't feel good, I support you in improving your lifestyle"? I mean, if we can't even acknowledge to one another that there's such a thing as healthy and unhealthy, productive and unproductive, if that's a reason to get so outraged, especially at a couple of podcasters who are just helping someone decide how to deliver a piece of news that they want to share, then something is seriously wrong with our society.
[00:52:17] And I just don't understand how we are monsters for saying that. I get it — appearance, weight, lifestyle, these are sensitive topics. But that doesn't mean we can't even talk about them. Or that we should close ourselves off from hearing something difficult on a podcast that we've been listening to for years, especially when it comes from a place of genuine concern.
[00:52:39] So what I'm getting at here is, just because something hurts your feelings, or makes you angry, or makes you uncomfortable, that doesn't mean that it's automatically wrong, or bad, or ill-intentioned. In fact, those reactions are usually a signal that there's some kernel of truth to what you are hearing. Otherwise, it probably wouldn't bother you so much. And I say that from personal experience. When I am the most riled up by feedback, it's usually because it hit a nerve that I haven't acknowledged yet.
[00:53:11] So, all that to say, I will read every angry email or DM you want to send my way. My inbox is always open, but having read literally hundreds of these messages over the years, usually, you know, 99.9 percent good, I've noticed that nine times out of 10, the people who get angry with us, or better yet, the people who get offended on behalf of other people, which as you know, that is one of my favorites, they usually need to look at their own vulnerabilities and their own biases. Because their outrage, it's usually a smoke signal to something in them that is being activated.
[00:53:46] In fact, it was interesting — Adam Grant had a tweet this week where he talked about this exact thing and he said, and I'm quoting him here, "A sign of emotional intelligence is moving from, quote, 'You made me feel,' to, quote, 'This is how I reacted.' Our emotions are not caused by other people's actions. They are shaped by our interpretations. Blaming others gives them power over our feelings. Taking responsibility empowers us." I love that tweet. Adam's a sharp dude; he's been on the show several times for that reason.
[00:54:19] In general, I think it's a great practice to ask yourself, "Okay, even if I'm right about this, why am I so angry? How is this person or this idea finding a tender spot in me?" And obviously, I'm not talking about getting worked up about things like violence or hate or racism or genocide. I'm not saying we can't be angry when people say or do objectively horrible things. But if you're doing mental gymnastics to literally redefine healthy standards as fat shaming or self-neglect as body positivity or our decision not to have pseudoscientific conspiracy theorists on the show as censorship or a fear of ideas, just to name a few examples of criticism we've gotten in the inbox lately, then I would really encourage you to look at that and ask yourself, what precisely are you protecting?
[00:55:13] And just to be clear, I understand there are people with metabolic disease. I get it. That's real. I understand. There are people with different builds. I understand that our culture has set impossibly high standards of beauty for people, especially for women. This is not about aesthetics. I'm not defending anyone's right to be judgmental or cruel. I'm advocating for our collective ability to engage with the truth about what is scientifically healthy.
[00:55:41] So, we're not going to hold back on sharing these ideas just because they might ruffle a few people's feathers. Sometimes, those feathers need to be a little ruffled, you know? And just because you are pissed off, it doesn't mean you're right. But the only reason I feel comfortable saying that is that Gabe and I are also committed to reconsidering our position if we ever realize that we got something wrong, which is holding ourselves to the same standard.
[00:56:08] Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much for that. Go back and check out Michael Easter and Dan Ariely if you haven't done so yet. And if you disagree with anything in this episode, you should unsubscribe and then take a screenshot and then send it to me with an all caps rant about why you will never take in any further information from us ever again.
[00:56:29] That's the part that I don't understand, Gabe. It's like, you disagree so you cut off the whole source, right? That's the part that's really weird. You're making that echo chamber smaller and smaller whenever you do that.
[00:56:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: My other favorite thing is when 18 months later, they send us another angry email about something else that pissed them off. And it's like, "Wait, didn't you say you just unsubscribed?" And they're like, "Well, I had to listen to find out if you guys were going to do this again." I was like—
[00:56:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:56:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: "Oh, cool. So you just couldn't give up the opportunity to be outraged all over again. Well, thank you for sticking with the show. I'm happy you're still with us."
[00:56:55] Jordan Harbinger: Truth is, I think that they're waiting for our response so they can get into a fight with us and when we just delete that ish or reply in a very sensible way and we're not totally flinging and flailing, I think that's very disappointing to people like this because I think what they want is attention and validation and we're just kind of like, "Yeah, we disagree. Thanks for listening." And they're like, "No, I don't listen anymore. How's that? I'm hurting you wherever I can by unsubscribing," and it's like cool there's not literally hundreds of thousands of other more reasonable people who are still listening next week. I don't know. I hate to lose a listener but at some point it's like I'm only going to bend over backwards so far before I break and I know what that point is.
[00:57:31] The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself. In our Six-Minute Networking course, the course is free, it is not gross, it is not schmoozy. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. The drills only take a few minutes per day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig the well before you're thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them, jordanharbinger.com/course.
[00:57:57] The newsletter, Wee Bit Wiser, a gem from a past episode from me to you, delivered to your inbox once a week, 900-plus episodes. Check it out, jordanharbinger.com/news. A lot of good feedback from you guys in the newsletters. I really love hearing from you when I send those out, highlight of the week. Don't forget to check out Michael Easter and Dan Ariely here on the show if you haven't done so yet.
[00:58:16] Show notes and transcripts on the website. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support this show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Or ask our AI chatbot at jordanharbinger.com/ai. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. And you can find Gabe on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi or on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi.
[00:58:36] This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto George Grant. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.
[00:59:09] You're about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show with an undercover FBI agent posing as an Islamic terrorist.
[00:59:16] Tamer Elnoury: I live with and grew up with the religion of Islam. After 9/11 and knowing full well that this was not the religion that was being portrayed, it kind of broke me a little bit inside. I was in law enforcement. I spoke Arabic. I'm a Muslim. And my knee-jerk reaction was to simply help.
[00:59:33] Working undercover, it definitely is an adrenaline rush, unlike anything I could describe. Putting your arm around someone, telling them that you're their best friend, getting them to believe you. But what attracted me a great deal to this case, or what blew my mind about this case, was the fact that he was arguably one of the smartest, most brilliant men I've ever been in front. This guy was on the precipice of curing infectious diseases. The sh*t that he talked about in his work was science fiction to him. How could someone so smart, so brilliant, such a gift to humanity, turn into a f*cking killer, an absolute disgusting piece of garbage overnight? He was the epitome of evil.
[01:00:19] So we're going up to his apartment and it was right next to ground zero. And he put his arm around and looked up to where the towers work. And he said, "Tamer, this town needs another 9/11 and we're going to give it to him." I've heard him say so much horrible things for so long that you think at that moment in time, I could have just accepted it and gone up and did my job but I couldn't. I imagined killing him right there and then. I imagined stabbing him in the eye with a pen I had in my pocket and leaving him for dead.
[01:00:55] Jordan Harbinger: To hear more from Tamer Elnoury about what drew him to the exciting and dangerous life of undercover law enforcement work, check out episode 572 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.
[01:01:08] This episode is sponsored in part by Conversations with Coleman. If you enjoy digging deep on complex subjects, you got to tune into Conversations with Coleman, run by Coleman Hughes, best-selling author and CNN correspondent. This podcast is not messing around. He goes all in on everything from race to politics to the shape of our culture, featuring a stellar lineup of guests like Neil deGrasse Tyson, Noam Chomsky, and if TED Talks are your jam, Coleman recently shook things up with one-on race-based policies called A Case for Colorblindness. While you're at it, don't skip his recent roundtable discussion on AI safety as well as the episode on the complex issue of immigration and assimilation. Get ready to dive deep into the heart of today's burning issues. For those who love peeling back the layers of contemporary challenges, Conversations with Coleman is the podcast you've been waiting for. Catch Conversations with Coleman on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
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