1009: Family Comes First, But She’s Just the Worst | Feedback Friday

1009: Family Comes First, But She's Just the Worst | Feedback Friday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback. Friday producer, the, uh, coconut oil moisturizing, this flaky Skin of Life conundrum, Gabriel Mizrahi.

[00:00:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's me combating this. Uh. This existential eczema, I guess. Yeah. No more sad sex

[00:00:20] Jordan Harbinger: psoriasis for y'all.

Terrible images to kick off this episode. Nicely done. Just s flaky, appealing. You're, I hope some people are eating while they're listening to this and they're just imagining what that all looks like and means and smells like. Especially on the Jordan Harbinger show. We decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, war correspondents, neuroscientists, CEOs, and rocket scientists. That's a lot of scientists. Fourstar, general astronaut. You get the idea. This week we had my friend Brian Kloss on embracing uncertainty in a world of Flukes.

Really interesting episode. He went through little flukes that have changed the course of the world, sort of like a butterfly effect. Examples. There's a lot. Actually, I had no idea that, uh, you know what I learned in that episode? The dinosaurs. I. They cooked to death along with pretty much everything on the surface of the earth.

I always thought it was like, oh, there was a cloud and it blocked out the sun. So the plants died and then the dinosaurs had nothing to eat? No, it turns out they just all cooked. It was like 500 degrees for a long period of time. By long, I mean like a better part of a day. Killed everything. Killed everything that wasn't in the ground of the water.

Fluke On Fridays though we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, and take our affection for alliteration. A little bit too far before we dive into the question today. I was thinking this morning about how I used to, I was gonna say used to, but still even still resent obstacles. I think we all do.

We resent obstacles, hurdles, things that didn't work out, aren't working out, et cetera. When I'd hit a wall on something, you know, like I couldn't hit my sales goals, or I was spinning my wheels on an article or something I was creating, or a relationship didn't pan out the way that I'd hoped. I'd have this script in my mind that went something like, ah, man, if only X thing hadn't happened, or if only I was able to make Y thing happen, things would've worked out perfectly for me.

Or whatever variant of that applied, I wouldn't be in this situation. I'd be further ahead than I am now. I'd be able to brag about such and such accomplishment, whatever it was. It took me years still working on it, but even into my forties here, to really appreciate that all of life is the obstacles. The entire path is literally hurdles, obstacles, hitting a wall, pivoting.

There is no perfect ideal underlying path in the first place. That's the key learning here, that it's an illusion. That there's an underlying path at all, and I know this is what Ryan Holiday talks about. The obstacle is the way and all that, but maybe I'm freshly inspired by having visited him this week down in Austin.

But more than that, I guess what I'm saying is there's no, there's really no sense of lamenting what could have been, because in all likelihood, what could have been never existed in the first place. Right? It what does exist? What did happen. That's probably much more interesting and much more meaningful than our fantasy of a life without challenges, without obstacles.

As always, we've got some fun ones. We've got some doozies. I'm excited to dive in here. Gabe, what is the first thing outta the mail? Bag out?

[00:03:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. My wife and I have been married for three years, and in that time I've met very little of her family due to a strained relationship stemming from addiction and mental health issues.

One of the few family members I have met is her older sister. I'll call her Anna. Anna is a difficult person.

[00:03:32] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, here we go. I kind of live for these crazy in-law stories. Does she have a life-sized mural of your wife on her living room floor?

[00:03:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't think it's that kind of crazy. Or Derek

[00:03:41] Jordan Harbinger: Jeter, whoever it was.

No. Yeah.

[00:03:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: They should have a life-sized mural of her on their living room floor to remember not to invite her. So let's find out. The first time I met her was when she came to live with us for several months after going through a breakup. After a 10 year relationship, the breakup happened because she had hid consumer debt from her boyfriend whose family is loaded.

He could no longer trust Anna and use this as the reason to break up with her. Though we all suspect that he had been looking for a reason, for some time, my wife and I are convinced that she planned to marry him, inherit millions, and never have to worry about the debt or changing her lifestyle. She stayed with us for about three months and did not contribute to Bills, help with chores or pay rent during her time here.

Hmm. Ugh.

[00:04:21] Jordan Harbinger: Interesting.

[00:04:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Anna runs an online business selling jewelry that she makes by hand, and she makes a good bit of money doing this, but her work ethic is not very good. She works maybe 12 hours per week on average. Wow. When she needs money, she'll have a drop or sell more products. Customers pay in advance and then she'll take months to fulfill their orders.

She does this all over again when she needs money, and sometimes has a backlog of over a hundred orders. Oh man. As a result, she consistently has customer service issues.

[00:04:50] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, you don't say I, this is really just kind of a low key scam. Sounds like it. Like it's not outright fraud because she's like, oh, I'm gonna do it.

The intent matters, but sloppy business practices bordering on fraud. Okay, cool. Great person to live with, by the way. For sure.

[00:05:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Anna has also borrowed money from many friends and family members. She hadn't talked to her mother for nearly five years, then asked for money a few years back. Her mother took out a personal loan to pay off all of Anna's debt, giving her a clean slate outside of back taxes.

[00:05:20] Jordan Harbinger: So mom is protecting and enabling her, and I'm guessing she's done that for a long time. Probably. Where else do you learn this stuff and that you can keep doing it?

[00:05:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Since then, Anna has continued her lifestyle of overindulging. She's racked up another $40,000 worth of consumer debt, maxed out all of her credit cards and has nearly been homeless.

So my wife and I agreed to let her move in with us again.

[00:05:43] Jordan Harbinger: No, no. I'm gonna hold off on commenting and see where this goes, but there's obviously a pattern of family members stepping in and saving this woman's butt every time she unnecessarily digs herself into some giant hole.

[00:05:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: This is part

[00:05:56] Jordan Harbinger: of the problem.

[00:05:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: We flew to the west coast and road tripped back across the country. My wife are eight month old and I in one car. Anna in the other.

[00:06:05] Jordan Harbinger: Wait, Gabe, why did they have to do that if they went in separate cars? That part's confusing.

[00:06:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a good question. Unclear. Maybe they helped her pack up and move. I hope that's the case.

Otherwise, it sounds like they flew across the country and drove back. Just for what? Emotional support.

[00:06:20] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, that's kind of what it sounds like. I mean, fine. You don't want her to be homeless. You can just buy her a plane ticket and pay for her U-Haul. I wonder if this road trip is also part of the caretaking.

Like we can't let her drive across the whole country by herself, even though, how old is this woman? We don't know, but a full on adult for sure. Yeah. Not like 17. And it's like, oh, she shouldn't drive across the country by herself? No. Okay. I don't think so.

[00:06:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. I don't know. Maybe they were like, eh, let's make a cool road trip out of it.

Family vacay?

[00:06:45] Jordan Harbinger: No. That you said they brought an eight month old. Eight month old. No parent of an eight month old is like, you know what'd be great. Let's go help someone move and drive across the, in entire country to do it. Abso no, no parent is doing that. Uh,

[00:06:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: that's a fair point. Yeah. I think there's a few.

Well, you know what the next bit might explain. So he goes on, my wife and I paid for the entire trip, including gas and food for Anna. Okay. Oh God. On the trip, Anna would refuse to eat free hotel breakfast and would use our card to buy breakfast instead. Oh. She would stop several times a day for snacks instead of sharing in the snacks we already bought together.

She also caused several delays with her frequent and long stops along the way. Several times she lost her cat. Quote, the thing she loves most in the world, unquote, taking hours to find her in a hotel or Airbnb neighborhood.

[00:07:35] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God. Okay, so this woman is on my last nerve. What a diva. What an ingrate. I kind of hate this person and I'm sugarcoating that

[00:07:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: and she's losing her cat over and over again.

Yeah, I know. I'm sensitive to that right now, but my God, you can't just let your cat wander around like that in all these new environments. That is not cool.

[00:07:53] Jordan Harbinger: This is so reckless and negligent that I feel, and, and the whole not, I don't want free hotel breakfast. I'm gonna take your credit card and go buy breakfast somewhere else.

I, I have to feel like people who are at this level, they have to do stuff like this on purpose to get attention. They're pushing as many buttons as they can. Like, there's just no way anybody is this hopeless and lacks that much self-awareness. Is it possible?

[00:08:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's cartoonish is what it is. It's cartoonish, but it is.

I don't think you do that to get attention. You do that because you're out of control and you have problems. But, okay, let's see where this goes. Oh God. When we got home, I went back to work, which is very stressful. I worked 10 to 12 plus hour days just to keep up, and we've had several rounds of layoffs over the last year, so underperforming is not an option.

A single misstep could land me or any other employee at the bottom of a list, and we could be fired within a month. Oh man. So I find myself working long hours just to come downstairs to a messy house and lots of dirty dishes. My wife took a temporary step back from her career to care for our son and given some health issues.

This has been a full-time job and then some. But with Anna here, the messiness has at least doubled. There are days she wakes up at 2:00 PM cooks or gets takeout, leaves her dishes in the sink or on the table, and goes back to sleep or watches tv. Okay. Meanwhile, she buys so much stuff. If she makes a little money, she eats out several times a day, buys clothes, or buys random luxuries for her cat.

I get so angry when I see her come home with three different meals from a restaurant because she couldn't decide what she wanted, or two different pairs of shoes and three outfits because she couldn't decide between them or her. Several Amazon packages on the porch each day. It's bothering me that she sees me work so hard to support us and lives here rent free without putting effort into her own endeavors.

I'm now struggling with my mental health.

[00:09:44] Jordan Harbinger: Uh, yeah. No kidding. My God, dude, I'm struggling

[00:09:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: with my mental health. This isn't even my life.

[00:09:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I've secondhand rage over here. For sure. For sure. Never, never has an ass needed to be kicked. So hard out the front door as this ass that he lives with you right now.

I, I just can't even wrap my, how uncomfortable would you be Gabriel live sponging off people like this and then ordering crap from Amazon every day and ordering DoorDash and sleeping until two, like, I couldn't look myself in the mirror.

[00:10:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, the lack of shame is part of the personality problem here.

[00:10:18] Jordan Harbinger: Definitely.

[00:10:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: So he goes on, my wife and I have been trying to model budgeting, living within our means, I'm sure, and cleanliness, but this doesn't seem to be helping. My God. They're treating her like a child. Like if we just show you how to do it, maybe she'll clean up with us. Everyone pitch in.

[00:10:32] Jordan Harbinger: That's why I am like, how old is she?

This person is like a 6-year-old with a credit card. Yes. And impulse control issues that most six year olds probably have gotten over by that point in their life.

[00:10:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: They're like living with Joffrey from Game of Thrones. Just dudes going, ham. Yeah. This is

[00:10:47] Jordan Harbinger: crazy to me.

[00:10:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Anna isn't following the very organized budget my wife made for her yet.

I'm kidding. Kidding. You don't say get her a mint.com account. I don't think she's gonna use it. Oh yeah. And isn't using her income to pay off debt. The plan, my wife set up could have Anna out of debt within a year, and then her six figure income could be used to move her life forward.

[00:11:07] Jordan Harbinger: Hold up. So, wow, she's making six figures, six figures, and she's still in this position, this frigging like, so that's why I was like, okay, you make $13,000 a year making jewelry and selling it on Etsy.

Like you know you're gonna, maybe she's just giving up on catching up because she's so far, no, this is a person who even if she's not paying rent and would just like eat at home, could pay off her consumer debt inside of eight months after tax and be totally set. But she has no interest in that, none

[00:11:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: clearly.

But then Anna has dealt with depression in the past, especially after the breakup. She's done some therapy, gotten back on medications, and has had much more energy and fewer symptoms since then. I do see codependent tendencies between her and my wife and her friends when she has them. She texts my wife all day long when she's not with us, usually sending multiple texts in a row and getting angry when my wife can't respond.

Mm. That is very telling. Interesting. Let's come back to that. Yeah. She's also unable to maintain close friendships. For example, she was living with a friend and her spouse and child for several months. She found her friend's phone left out, went through it and found a thread where the friend and another woman had been talking about Anna.

That makes sense. She's probably talking to all her other friends about how she's a nightmare to live with, and then she's

[00:12:20] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: And interesting that she wanted to go looking for that. So there's some part of her that's like, what does everyone think of me? Mm-Hmm. Anna screenshotted the text messages and sent them to herself and her friend found out and kicked her out.

Anna did not take responsibility. Instead of blaming the friend for talking about her, she since texted the friend with no response multiple times per day, and has also texted the husband behind her friend's back. Oh my God. There are several examples of childish behavior like this.

[00:12:46] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. This is childish ish, but it's more like pathological.

Mm-Hmm. This is pathological. This is like a medi. This is medical. Territory. This is much more than just like irresponsibility and entitlement. I think now we are firmly in cluster B territory. I mean, I, who am I to diagnose this woman? But the unstable relationships, the impulse of behavior that needing to be close and then melting down at even a whiff of distance.

I'm no doctor. But come on. I feel for her, I do, because everything you're describing is starting to sound like a personality disorder. And personality disorders are very difficult. And they're almost always born from trauma, which was not her fault.

[00:13:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: And he did say that his wife has a strained relationship with her family because of, uh, addiction and mental health issues.

So that might explain why Anna is the way she is in part.

[00:13:34] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, that fits. So I have some compassion for her, but sure. This behavior is really worrisome and it's, oh God, it's extremely hard to be in a healthy relationship with somebody like this if they're just not working on it, which is not happening at all, obviously.

I mean, this is tough.

[00:13:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm at my breaking point. Mm-Hmm. How should I handle this situation without ruining one of my wife's only familial relationships? Can I somehow motivate Anna to take better responsibility? Signed, stressed, possessed, and apparently left to clean up my sister-in-law's mess.

[00:14:06] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man.

What a situation. What a character. I gotta say, we've heard our fair share of terrible in-law stories, but Anna might take the cake. Gabe, I'm thinking about that letter we took last year from that guy with Ukrainian in-laws. The sister especially was kind of a nightmare. Oh

[00:14:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah. Caterina.

[00:14:20] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Katerina.

That would've been a good guess of the name, even if that was wrong. No, that was the name we gave her. Oh, I see. The So, yes. Caterina was always hitting them up for money and gifts and then expected them to get her like the nice version of whatever she wanted and pay for her trips around the United States and all that.

And it's like we are literally housing refugees.

[00:14:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: So many parallels with Anna. That was episode, uh, 8 73 by the way. Feedback Friday classic.

[00:14:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So we don't have a ton of time here. I'm gonna cut to the chase. Your sister in-Law is an entitled disrespectful out of control freeload. She's co-opted you guys slash You guys have allowed yourselves to be co-opted into her game.

Mm-Hmm. If you wanna preserve your sanity, your peace, your mental health. And do right by everyone. In this situation, you need to redefine your relationship with her as soon as possible, and given her personality, there might not actually be a way to do that without deteriorating your wife's relationship with her.

But based on what you shared, this relationship, it is already deteriorated severely, severely. And if, if putting your foot down and drawing some much needed boundaries here creates some friction between them. I hate to say this, but I am not entirely sure that that's a bad thing, because based on everything you've shared here, I think this whole relationship requires a massive reset.

I think Anna's whole life requires a massive reset, but you are not responsible for that piece of it. That is Anna's responsibility. What you and your wife can control is how much you are there for Anna. In what ways? To what extent? How you respond to her when she doesn't honor the insanely generous help you've given her.

When she creates chaos in your house, when she fails to live up to her obligations and what kind of relationship you do want with her. How much contact you wanna have with her, what the terms of your relationship are, how you communicate, all of that. So look, we touched on this in the letter. So did you, there's obviously some serious codependency and caretaking in this family.

It happens with her mom, it happens with your wife now it's happening with you.

[00:16:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And my guess is that everybody keeps stepping in to save Anna. Yeah. Time and time again. Because I have to imagine that watching this woman struggle is extremely painful.

[00:16:21] Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah. Who wants to watch their sister declare bankruptcy, become homeless?

I mean, it's awful. And I almost wonder, Gabe, if there's more that this person didn't include, like, oh, we didn't mention this, but she was abused as a child and also she run when last time she had no place to stay, she got addicted to drugs and we got her off that like, you know, who knows? They've seen the cycle a few times clearly, because otherwise it's like, wow, are you coddling this?

Spoiled ass person.

[00:16:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Nice pivot there. Yeah, you're right.

[00:16:48] Jordan Harbinger: Try that was me dancing on my toes for a second. But you're, you're not doing her any favors here. Not in the bigger picture. Anna keeps finding these soft landings, which, or these lifelines, if you will, but she's not using them to get back on her feet and become more responsible.

[00:17:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, she's just coasting. She's right. Freeloading. I mean, that's just what it's,

[00:17:03] Jordan Harbinger: and it's not okay. No. And then you guys pay the price for that with your anger, with your worry, with your stress, with your mental health. Meanwhile, she's like you said, Gabe, going ham on Amazon and buying three different lunches and making you pay for her gas and like kind of sorta conning jewelry customers and buying fricking Kate Spade sweaters for the cat.

She keeps losing. What part of this is healthy? What part of this is helpful? What part of this is fair? Put your foot down, bud. Do it.

[00:17:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Agreed. Sadly, I don't think you can motivate Anna to take better responsibility. I think you and your wife are clinging to the hope that her sister will magically change if she just sees you guys being responsible.

And you guys work hard enough, and I think I can understand why. Because you genuinely wanna see Anna get better. You wanna see her succeed and it's hard to accept that she's, well, I don't know. Look, let's call a spade a spade, right? Like she is severely ill-equipped. She's entitled. Rude, irresponsible,

[00:17:55] Jordan Harbinger: unstable, disrespectful.

[00:17:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, the list goes on.

[00:17:59] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. I'm

[00:17:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: sure that that's really painful to come to terms with, especially for your wife. Hoping that you can motivate Anna to change. I'm afraid that that is a fantasy, and it's probably a fantasy that helps you justify allowing her to move in with you. Probably helps you and your wife avoid the, I mean, frankly, the devastation of accepting that for the moment anyway.

Anna cannot get better. I think there's probably a part of you, not just your wife, not just her mom. A part of you that also wants to protect and kind of enable. Anna, you allowed her to move in with you twice. You've put up with a lot from her. Maybe you were just going along with your wife's decision here, but you do bear some responsibility here too.

I mean, look, you are an extremely responsible person. You're an extremely effective person. You work super hard. You're clearly committed. You're determined to not get laid off. These are wonderful qualities, but I do wonder whether those same qualities have made you vulnerable to Anna because there might be a part of you going, well, we can just fix her if we work hard enough.

If we show her what this looks like slash I don't want to admit that I have failed to improve this woman. You know that I've just been taken for a ride. But I'm afraid that you guys have enough information now to know that unless she wants to get better, she is not going to get better. And you guys have on some level, participated in this very unfortunate con.

[00:19:16] Jordan Harbinger: I totally agree with that man. It, it's time to let go of that fantasy and prioritize yourselves. So this starts with you and your wife having some very honest conversations about Anna, whether you guys are willing to continue enabling her in this way. And you've gotta get down to brass tacks. Like you can't, you gotta be a united front here.

You can't have people backtracking 'cause they feel bad or whatever, which is gonna be hard for your wife potentially. And I'm with Gabe. I do think that what you guys are doing now is enabling Mm-Hmm. I think it started off as genuine help. It came from a very good place. You know, you wanna be on the same team with your wife, but now you're just enabling her to continue being reckless and disrespectful.

Part of these conversations is helping your wife see her role in Anna's life more clearly and exploring all the feelings she has about her sister, which, hey, I'm sure those are very complex. My guess is that your wife is deeply angry at Anna, and she's maybe also kind of scared of her, scared of how she'll react if she tells her, Hey, sis, it's time to find your own way, and scared of having to watch her fall on her face.

She might feel like, oh my God, what if she gets back into drugs? I don't know. I don't know if Anna ever did drugs, right? But what if, you know what, if something happens to her, it's gonna be my fault. I would prioritize coming up with a fair timeline for Anna to find her own place. I'm not saying you need to kick her out tomorrow and never talk to her again.

You can be kind and compassionate while you're also firm and boundaried.

[00:20:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. But here's the thing, when you do give Anna this gentle push outta the nest, or maybe it's, I don't know, might not be so gentle. No, it's gonna get ugly, dude. I think it could get very ugly. Yeah. Yeah. Based on what you've shared, I think it's very likely that Anna will interpret this legitimate boundary of yours as another example of abandonment, and she could react quite poorly to that.

I mean, she can't even deal with somebody not texting her back immediately. She might get extremely angry at you. She might freak out. She might do or say some awful things to make you guys feel guilty and convince you to let her say. You guys need to be prepared for that, and you need to know that. Her response to you saying very reasonably, Hey, I, it's time for you to figure this out on your own.

That is not a reflection of you. You guys have gone above and beyond in helping her. This whole subplot about her friend is so telling. I hear some poor boundaries there. I hear some paranoia. I hear a lack of accountability and remorse. Basically, I hear a woman who, to Jordan's point, is not well, and this is part of the reason that she is in this situation.

This is why she depends on you guys so much because she's apparently driven everybody else away. But that is not your fault and that is not your problem. So when you finally pull the trigger here, I would try to tap into a lot of empathy and kindness for her because I do think that Anna needs to feel that from you.

But at the same time, you guys need to protect yourselves. You gotta hold her accountable. I do think you have to give her some hard truths, and those two things are compatible.

[00:21:56] Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, I don't envy them at all for having to have this conversation. No, because I think it's gonna be pretty intense, man. Yeah, but the fact that it's intense, that's a sign that it's gotta happen.

Does that make sense? It does, man. Start talking to your wife. Start coming up with a plan for reclaiming your life, for giving Anna the gift, the very painful gift of confronting this stuff, and finally standing on her own two feet. I'm afraid that Anna, my dear, you are in for quite a shock when she learns that nobody's gonna save her.

That she's driven the most important people in her life away. That is going to be a very tough moment for her. It is not going to be pretty to watch,

[00:22:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: but it could be so powerful. I mean, those moments are kind of rock bottom moments that can shock somebody into saying, Mm-Hmm. Oh, okay. There's something fundamentally wrong with me or with my life.

I need to make some changes. But when a person is this extreme and this far gone, yeah, it might not be enough. I don't know.

[00:22:46] Jordan Harbinger: No, you know what? But that's also, that is not your problem. Right? That's her journey. Yes. And that's really what your letter is about, letting her be on her journey and you, you protecting yours.

Mm-Hmm. So, good luck. And Gabe, you know, maybe a therapist would be a good. Thing to bring in. Like maybe they can be like, Hey, Anna, living in the house, it's a little rough. There's a lot of, you know, stuff that we would like to get on the same page on. We're all going to see a therapist, are you in? And if she's in, then it's like, Hey, you abuse us financially and leave the house a mess.

Not okay, we're we wanna transition you into da da. Like try and a therapist might be like a neutral ish third party that could help you navigate this. Unless Anna's like, I'm not going to see a therapist with you guys. That's weird. Whatever. Then you're just like, okay, well we're changing the locks.

Biatch like you're outta here. Could be. Um, but I think a therapist, like if you can even get her in the room with one, is potentially gonna help make this transition just a little bit less painful. But it's gonna be hard either way.

[00:23:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think that could be really helpful. But I gotta tell you, I just had an image of her rolling into family therapy with three different takeout bags from Mastros.

Right. Like I couldn't decide what to order.

[00:23:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. And a bunch of cat clothes. Yeah. You know what's a good object of your recklessly indulgent financial habits though Gabriel? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help. Can you believe how quickly 2024 is flying by? My parents always said, as you get older, the years move faster. I don't like that. It's true. Jen and I are already doing mid-year check-ins to our 2024 goals. I've been reflecting on my achievements and planning what's next.

The achievements list is quite well, it's depressing. That's why I'm talking about therapy. Therapy can be a game changer for your goals. Help you appreciate the wins and strategize next steps. I guess I probably need to call my therapist. Contrary to common misconceptions, therapy is not just for big ass drama.

It's not just for the feedback Friday stuff, folks. It's also about managing stress, setting practical boundaries, becoming the best version of yourself. If you are curious about therapy, definitely you should try better help. It's completely online. Get help without changing outta your PJs. I routinely do that better.

Help is also super convenient, flexible with your schedule. Jen, manage her sessions during grocery runs. Probably should have focused on those, just saying, uh, but you know, I wouldn't. Yeah. Anyway, to get started, you fill out a quick form, get matched with a licensed therapist, and if needed you can switch therapists anytime without extra cost.

So give better help. A go could make the second half of your year even better.

[00:25:10] Jen Harbinger: Take a moment. Visit better help.com/jordan today to get 10% off your first month. That's better. HE p.com/jordan.

[00:25:18] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Greatness Wins. Great. I feel like I'm supposed to scream that one. Greatness wins is the athletic wear brainchild of e-Commerce.

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[00:26:26] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you for listening to and supporting this podcast.

It is your support of our sponsors that keeps us going. Hey, all the links, all the deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, all in one searchable, clickable place. Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. All right, back to feedback Friday. Okay, what's

[00:26:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: next?

Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 30-year-old woman and three months ago I met a 34-year-old woman named Rachel at a happy hour for a women's yoga club.

[00:26:54] Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, that sounds like a place you would meet a girl, so maybe you should take some notes.

[00:26:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: You might wanna see where this letter goes first. That's true for all your know, she just met her stalker or something.

Yeah, kind of jumped the gun there. I think.

[00:27:04] Jordan Harbinger: Rubber mallets in five four. Exactly.

[00:27:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: This is feedback Friday, so we gotta wait. I usually date men, but she was one of the people I connected with and we became friends. Rachel is a lesbian, though. I didn't learn this, or rather it didn't come up until the third time we hung out.

I got the feeling that she liked me romantically and I liked her too, but I wasn't quite sure. I figured she might just be eager to be friends because she was new to the city.

[00:27:29] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm. So did this come up after you guys moved in together after those first three dates? What is that called again? Gabe

[00:27:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: U Hauling.

U Hauling. Your favorite phrase. Yeah. Yeah. We are two U-Haul references in one episode already. U-Haul should sponsor us at this point, which is free advertising. That's right. So she goes on about six weeks in after hanging out every weekend and talking on the phone during the week. I told her that I liked her, but that it wouldn't make sense for us to date because I'm not out and am not sure if I would want to be with a woman long term.

And while I might eventually be open to that, it wouldn't be a great way to start a relationship. I've usually dated men and always pictured myself with a man.

[00:28:06] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm, interesting. She must have been disappointed.

[00:28:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: She said she liked me too and would be open to dating me, but that she understood. So we decided to still be friends and just not talk on the phone every day.

Three weeks ago she left for a two month work trip. We still talk every couple of days or so. I still really like her. I was actively dating and I still go on dates with guys here and there. I don't really doubt I would be able to meet a guy I like if I tried, eh, very confident. I like it. Rachel and I caught up yesterday while she's in town for a couple of days before heading back out for work.

It made me sad because it was an uncomfortable reminder that we're not in a romantic relationship, and maybe in my head I made it more than what it is. I don't even know if she likes me romantically anymore. Uh uh Don't,

[00:28:49] Jordan Harbinger: yeah, no, I know I You really like her. It sounds like she really likes you. If those feelings were there before, I would not be surprised if she's still interested.

Usually if people aren't interested, they don't actually wanna be just friends. I mean, or is that just me because I'm, I remember breaking up with women like, can we be friends? And I was like, no, I have absolutely no interest in being friends with you. I was trying to date you for God's sake. Not that I'm not friends with any exes.

There were certainly some that I was like, no, you're the only appeal was romantic and now that that's gone, I'm out.

[00:29:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm sure those feelings are still alive. You and also you did definitely did not make this more than what it was in your head. This woman was hanging out with you every weekend talking to you on the phone every day.

You don't do that with someone you're not into.

[00:29:27] Jordan Harbinger: Right? Yeah. This was slash is a very mutual crush, but it kind of warms my heart. To hear a 30-year-old person agonizing over how someone feels about them. I think that's, it's cute. Somehow.

[00:29:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: We're never too old for a crush, are we? No. Just liking somebody turns you into a 14-year-old instantly.

It's so cute.

[00:29:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. A friend. I've been there. I i, I don't miss those days though. It feels like emotional rollercoaster. I'm good being married. Keep it on an even keel baby.

[00:29:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: I would just ask her if she wants to date or be in a relationship, but she's still out town for another month. What does that have to do with nothing?

You guys are talking on the phone all the time.

[00:29:57] Jordan Harbinger: Uh, only we had a way to reach people who are outta town.

[00:30:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Part of me still wants to date other people and I'm still not sure if I would want to be with a woman long term, although I might be open to it. I even came out to my mom last week so that if Rachel and I were ever to date, that would already be done.

Okay. But part of me still wants to end up with a man. Hmm. Lot of push pull here. Yeah. A lot of conflicts. What should I do? How do I figure out what I want? Do I need to just spend a couple of days alone thinking about it? Or do I need to actually be experiencing life dating men and women, seeing how I like them and how things go with them?

And where does this leave me? And Rachel, I. Signed in a world of pain 'cause I might've missed this train.

[00:30:39] Jordan Harbinger: You know what's funny about this one? Oh yeah. I don't even know if I like her and stuff, but I did change the entire relationship I have with my family by telling my mother that I'm a lesbian. But you know, just in case.

[00:30:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: But I don't really see myself ending up with a woman. So I don't know.

[00:30:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I might not really be, but I did tell my mother that I was, every

[00:30:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: detail of this letter is screaming. I'm into this person and I wanna see where this goes. The overthinking is so interesting.

[00:31:04] Jordan Harbinger: My goodness. So, yeah. Interesting. So you date men and women.

You connected with Rachel. You really like her, you're clear. Sorry, I'm still laughing. You're clearly drawn to her. It sounds like she is to you, but it sounds like you like men more than women, or you have an idea in your head about the gender of the person you end up with. And I'm curious to know where that idea comes from.

I, I mean, I can guess, but I, what I'm asking is, is this authentic or is there some fear or shame about settling down with a woman for some reason? Because like maybe you secretly don't wanna be bi or gay. I, um, which I could understand. I mean, and that idea is now intention with your strong feelings for this person I.

That's a confusing place to be. And I can hear the stress and conflict in your letter. I'm sorry you're going through that. Although I can already hear our lesbian listeners firing up their keyboards to tell us about the risks of dating bisexual women, especially ones who prefer men to women. 'cause there's gotta be, there's gotta be a school of thought on that.

Mm-Hmm. The struggle is real. I get it. But let's put that aside and just focus on our friend here. My take is thinking and ruminating, and sussing out all the scenarios. It's not gonna get you any closer to an answer here. You've already done that. It's just leading you in circles. I think you're already onto the answer that you need to go experience life date men, date women, and probably date Rachel too.

You're not gonna know if you're truly compatible with Rachel Long term unless you guys date. It's no different from a straight relationship in that way. You guys gotta explore, see how it goes. And a, trust me, I'm a heterosexual man with a podcast, so I am clearly very qualified to opine about lesbian relationships and all the details.

[00:32:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: And you did reach out to us, so yeah,

[00:32:37] Jordan Harbinger: well that's true. So that's my license here. But I definitely wouldn't hold yourself back from a potentially great relationship with an awesome person just because you don't picture yourself settling down with a woman. I mean, first of all, man or woman, you don't owe any prospective partner a lifelong commitment at the start.

I don't see why it should be any different with Rachel, but that's something you can talk about with her. Is she trying to settle down? Is she open to taking it slow, seeing where it goes? Or is she just trying to put a ring on it and buy a cottage in the countryside and have kids in the next 18 months?

If so, yeah, that does change the equation a bit, but not necessarily because you're both women, it's just because her timeline might not match yours. So that's something to talk about. The other reason I wouldn't hold yourself back from dating her is you need to really explore this idea you have about the gender of the person you settled down with.

I say this with zero judgment, total curiosity. Maybe you picture yourself settling down with a man because you really do prefer men. Hey, that's okay. But as I mentioned at the top, I do wonder whether there's more to that preference. Like is there just a lot of social programming going on here? Is there some internalized shame about being bi, about liking women?

Do you worry about how people would perceive you if you settled down with a woman? Is there some other unrelated concern or conflict about being in a serious relationship with a woman? Just throwing it out there. A few things to consider because look, maybe this is just how you're wired. Cool, but maybe you haven't scratched the surface of this preference yet.

And if you do wanna have, well high functioning relationships, if you wanna make sure you're not disqualifying potentially great partners, if you wanna live truly and authentically, then this is something you really gotta explore more deeply. And the best way to explore it is by actually going ahead and dating different people experiencing life as you put it.

Because look, again, you can argue both sides of this till the cows come home, but if you jump in and start dating Rachel, for real, you'll know pretty quickly if A, you enjoy being in a long-term relationship with a woman, and B, if Rachel is that woman. So what more do you really need than that? I don't really know where this leaves you and Rachel, but all you need to do is reach out to her and talk about it.

My advice is, I would just be very honest with her. It sounds like y'all have great rapport, a real connection, some foundation of trust. Now that's wonderful. I would literally say, Hey, listen, I'm really sorry if I've danced around this topic or sent you mixed signals. I know I told you it wouldn't make sense for us to date because I'm not out.

I wasn't sure if I saw myself with a woman, but I've been doing some thinking, so I just want to share with you where I am. First of all, it came out to my mom. So that's done Not for you, just in general, although it was kind of for her. So whatever slash kind of for you. Yeah. Uh, maybe just leave that detail out and second, I really like you.

I still think about you and I'd love to explore this. I can't promise you we're gonna rent a U-Haul in the next three months. That's right. We, they should sponsor us, but I am down to see how it feels and see where it goes. And I'm sorry for the change of heart and all the whiplash, but I just wanted to see where you are.

If you're still interested, if you'd be willing to explore things with me too, and let her tell you if she's down to date somebody who isn't a hundred percent sure about the future. My hunch is that she will be, but just be prepared for any answer. The beauty of being totally honest is all of the information is on the table.

She's a grownup. She can tell you if she's willing to take this risk or whether dating you is some kind of liability. I think it'll be a great conversation with both of you. So good luck and thanks for letting two straight dudes advise you on your lesbian liaisons.

[00:35:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, I second that. Your, uh, your sic sufferings.

[00:35:58] Jordan Harbinger: You're right. Your home erotic heartache.

[00:36:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Your queer conundrum.

[00:36:02] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. All right. And the alliteration is back. We have lost our minds. Good luck, Gabe. I'm fully team Rachel here. Yeah, I mean, she sounds great so far. She's, she does. It's so funny how, obviously into her, the, our friend here is, I hate for her to miss out on a great relationship because she's conflicted or afraid.

But that's what she needs to figure out.

[00:36:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, you make a good point. I wonder if all the overthinking and conflict is just about liking somebody so much in general, man or woman. Yeah. You know, sometimes that could just throw you for a loop and you're like kind of angry like, why is this person so has such a hold over me?

Maybe I don't want to be with that person. I mean, there's just, there are a lot of layers here. I think so. Yeah. But I say go on a nice date, have yourself a nice time and see what's what. That's right.

[00:36:41] Jordan Harbinger: You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a lot easier.

If your polyamorous husband's side piece is stealing your man away from you, your creepy brother-in-Law is harassing you at family functions. Or you're in a possible, what was it? A magic cult that has objectively changed your life for the better whatever's. Got you. Staying up at night lately. Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com.

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[00:37:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: next up, salutations Jordan and Gabriel. Ugh.

[00:37:11] Jordan Harbinger: Salutations the smell, you buddy.

[00:37:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: And a tip of the hat to you, sir. What wretched conundrum do you bring us? Let us behold. I'm currently in my second semester of my Master of Legal Studies program, which checked a lot of my boxes.

Everything from the skills I would learn to being part of the legal profession without having to pass a state bar exam. Mm. I was both surprised and grateful that I got in, and I feel like the classes I'm completing are gonna help me show employers that I have specialized knowledge and real expertise.

Recently, however, I saw a YouTube ad for an AI powered service to help people with their legal cases. This made my heart drop as one of the careers I was looking to go into was legal consulting. Now I'm worried that I won't be able to offer my expertise because a business could just use a service like this one to answer their legal questions.

I'm worried that AI will be good enough for companies to use instead of someone like me who wouldn't actually have a real law degree.

[00:38:06] Jordan Harbinger: Mm. Yeah. So many people are asking this question.

[00:38:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, it would be so funny if you used Chad GBT to write this letter and it came up with salutations. Yeah. Just an

[00:38:14] Jordan Harbinger: oddly formal AI that knows our podcast is tired of hey, Jordan and Gabe or whatever, but which we are not tired of, by the way.

[00:38:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, no, no. We are not. But side note, we do love it when you guys change up the greetings. So if you ever want to go ham with your opening, feel free to do that. We will read whatever weird salutations you want to go with. You can pronounce our names however you want. It's hilarious. Yeah.

[00:38:32] Jordan Harbinger: Can confirm. We love it.

Carry on. Habe.

[00:38:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm most concerned about being able to make a good enough living after my degree to pay back the student loans I'm accruing in order to pay for a degree. That is so fulfilling to me. I could become a full-time instructor at the college I currently work at, or possibly work for the FTC in some capacity if I qualify for a position there.

But I'm afraid that my time spent on my degree will have been wasted. Is my degree worth complaining at this point? Signed getting a little sweaty. 'cause AI might be coming for me.

[00:39:03] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, I don't know about that one, man. I think you like you're slipping. Gabe.

[00:39:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: That sign off made me a little sweaty 'cause I put the emphasis on the wrong sable to make that work.

You

[00:39:11] Jordan Harbinger: sure did. Well anyway, it's an excellent question. Like I said, it's one that every person in every field should be asking themselves. We bury our head in the sand when it comes to AI at our own risk. So, just a disclaimer, Gabe and I are not AI experts by any means. We cannot tell you exactly how AI is gonna revolutionize the legal profession, but we did a little homework on this and here is what we learned.

First of all, AI will definitely have an impact on the legal world. The most obvious impact is gonna be automating routine tasks, document review, legal research, such as looking up relevant case law, statutes, precedents, analyzing contracts, analyzing data during discovery, doing due diligence. And obviously that'll increase efficiency.

It'll reduce costs, probably require fewer lawyers and paralegals and other support staff, or just allow them to move faster. But that doesn't mean that AI is gonna make all lawyers and legal professionals obsolete, at least not right away. The consensus right now seems to be that it'll be a powerful tool that'll transform a lot of the day to day, the functional aspect of the work.

Clients will still need lawyers to solve complex problems, to come up with interesting strategies to do advocacy work on their behalf, and they'll still want actual human beings communicating with them, managing their cases, checking and managing all the work that AI is doing.

[00:40:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. I mean, it's hard for me to imagine an AI tool coming up with a brilliant closing argument.

Mm-Hmm. For a client or that, you know, something that's gonna emotionally move a jury to find their client not guilty. No. Or whatever limitations

[00:40:34] Jordan Harbinger: or writing some creative regulatory strategy for a brand new industry. Right. Or taking a client to lunch and hearing them out and signing them. Exactly. But I can absolutely see.

AI proofreading that closing argument. Mm-Hmm. Crunching a bunch of data on jury selection, finding regulatory precedents in comparable industries. Proofreading a motion before submitting it and making sure the citations are legit. That's gonna happen for sure. Actually, Dave, I don't know if you heard about this, a lawyer did have chat, GPT, do something and come up with legal citations and it just picked like totally wrong case law.

The guy got sanctioned. Oh really? Wow. I hadn't heard about that. Not good.

[00:41:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: But that, that happens a lot. I mean, Google like shot the bed this week with a day. I told Dan know. Somebody was like, how do you prevent a cake from melting? And it's like super glue. The cake back together so far from perfect. But this stuff is getting better and better.

We also ran this by our boy Corbin Payne, and he confirmed that ai Yes, definitely changing the game. He told us that Nexus Lexus actually released its first major AI product last year, and it's apparently taken two hour research sessions and distilled them down to like 15 minutes. Hmm. He did say it's a little clunky, but it apparently cuts right to the heart of the question.

And he also said that it'll do document evaluations, it'll check sources, it'll give you feedback on your outline and quality. It'll provide other important metrics, and that's just the beta version, so you can only imagine where this is gonna go. On the other hand, Corbin said that it does leave a lot to be desired when it comes to actually drafting documents, but not bad for giving you the bare bones.

The other thing Corbin thinks will change is in-office operations. So he predicts a big shift out of offices for the legal profession, and he confirmed that attorneys will probably spend more time doing hands-on things like going to court, handling negotiations, running mediations, stuff like that. He doesn't feel that it's gonna eradicate lawyers or legal professionals completely, but he does believe it's gonna cut a lot of the time.

They need to do tasks and allow firms to be leaner, which I guess could mean fewer jobs potentially.

[00:42:29] Jordan Harbinger: That all makes sense. So law schools around the world definitely need to be building this stuff into their curricula. Mm-Hmm. Or they are gonna be failing to train the next generation lawyers. That means offering classes on how to use AI tools, understanding the ethical implications of AI in the law, which is a fascinating field.

Teaching data analysis, offering interdisciplinary programs that bridge legal studies with tech and data science and philosophy, all of that.

[00:42:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: So look, if your program offers those courses or there are professors at your school who are starting to specialize in this stuff, I would definitely seek them out.

Take those classes, ask those professors for advice. Maybe say, Hey, can I work in your lab? Can I be your ta? Whatever you can do. And if those classes don't exist, then I would approach a couple of professors about creating them. And again, maybe offer to be their ta, help them design the curriculum.

Basically, I would create the classes you wish you had to prepare for this AI future. Another thing I would do is start an AI club at your law school and invite other students in your program to join you. And by the way, they should all be interested because clearly this is the future. Maybe you guys get together once a week, twice a week, and you teach one another, how to analyze legal data using some of these new tools.

Maybe you invite AI experts, especially ones in the legal world to come speak to your club. And by the way, the first question I would ask them is, how is AI going to change our profession and what should we be doing today to prepare for it? You could literally conjure up the mentors that you need right now.

Here's another fun idea. Pitch your university on giving you a little funding and go to some other departments on campus and create a mini lab for these interdisciplinary AI studies. I. Basically, if it doesn't exist yet, I would go build it. I bet you will find tons of people who are excited to join you.

And also I bet your school would be pretty grateful for the help because they are probably scrambling to go figure this out too.

[00:44:14] Jordan Harbinger: Definitely. And by the way, this is also an amazing way to build relationships. If you start this club, you talk to the dean, you rub elbows with the administrators, who knows when you graduate, you could walk right into their office and be like, Hey, how about I become your first interdisciplinary AI professor?

Or how about I run your AI in the law program? One of those speakers you invite to your club, maybe they get you a job at their firm. How great would that be? How much more fun would that be than applying to a bunch of jobs in the traditional way and just praying that somebody sees you as valuable, this would be a game changer.

And speaking of which. When you start this club, you should 100% invite an attorney who works at the FTC to come and speak. That right there could be your in. So yes, I do think your degree is worth completing at this point, but it'll be even more worthwhile if you navigate the rest of your program with this AI thing in mind.

And that's really the best advice I can offer. Anyone listening right now read up on the broad strokes of how AI is gonna affect your industry, how you could ask chat GPT to tell you. It'll take like five seconds. Somehow that seems appropriate. Freak out for a couple hours. Then take all your worst fears and work backward to what you need to be doing today to prepare And look.

That's really all you can do, honestly. It could be really exciting. Could be intense, but exciting. I love that you're asking this question now. I love your mindset. I know it's gonna serve you really well, and if you follow through on it, you'll set yourself up to be valuable for a long, long time. Good luck.

You know, it's a great use of those fat paychecks you're gonna get as a, what is it? Legal consultant. Yes, the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Quince every time we pack for a trip. It used to be a struggle for Jen until she found Quince.

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All the deals, discounts, and ways to support the podcast are all in one place. Jordan harbinger.com/deals. You can also email meJordan@jordanharbinger.com. If you are lazy or you can't find something, I am more than happy to dig up that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show.

Alright, now back to feedback Friday. All righty, what's next?

[00:48:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I grew up in a very religious evangelical Christian household and my dad was very angry and abusive, so I moved out young and got married to a Marine in North Carolina when I was 18. When I moved down to be with him, we started going to a church where I met this amazing military family with four awesome little kids, two older sisters and two younger brothers.

We all became very close and I immediately thought of them as family. The mom is very much like me in that we both have a bit of a hard edge and exist at the extremes of any given characteristic, very little middle ground. If she loves you, she loves you fiercely. If she doesn't, she can be very harsh and quick to judge.

For example, she's very straightforward and never talked to her children like babies, but years later, I see that she can still be incredibly harsh, especially to her youngest who has pretty severe A DHD. I've also seen the father who's calm and patient 95% of the time, snap and swear at him In a concerning way, I have no reason to believe that any physical abuse has ever taken place, and there's no question that the parents love the kids, and the kids love and trust the parents.

They're a very strong family unit, although sometimes it looks a bit like codependence. The parents are also hyper defensive of their parenting style, which gives me little room to ask how the kids are doing because they're so tight knit. I believe anything I say to the kids would make it back to the parents and could be seen as trying to undermine them.

Sadly, the person I married was a violent narcissist, but because of the religious background, I had a hard time leaving. This family stuck by and supported me the whole time. Finally, after five years, with the help of an amazing therapist and patient friends, I found the strength to leave that marriage.

[00:49:58] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, well done. Proud of you for finding the support you needed. That is huge.

[00:50:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Then last year, the military brought this family to my area. The four kids are almost grown now with the youngest being 15. Each kid is wonderful and smart, and I love them dearly. Recently though their eldest child gave her testimony in front of her church essentially telling people how she got saved.

I was deeply concerned after I saw the video on YouTube because she publicly mentioned having an addiction when she was younger and later explained that it was to porn. She described how from the ages of seven to 12, she watched it nightly with the content getting darker and more quote unquote violent.

She was able to stay away from it from 12 to about 17, but as an older teen, she found herself struggling again, but my jaw really hit the floor when she described, quote, having my little sister play games with her and having her sister view some of the content as well. The younger sister has struggled with her sexual identity and some self-harm amongst other things.

And I can't help but think that whatever happened is at least in part a cause of that. Hmm, huh.

[00:51:05] Jordan Harbinger: Maybe, I mean, maybe not hard to say for sure, but the porn exposure at that young age definitely didn't help

[00:51:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: my heart ached for both of them because when I was married, my ex-husband brought some pretty sick things into my world by the same means, and I hate him to this day for it.

I've seen firsthand the damage that that content can do to somebody's brain, as you described in your recent skeptical Sunday episode.

[00:51:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it is very worrisome. I'm, look, I am not puritanical by any means, but there are some very real risks to consuming this content, and if you see something super edgy at a vulnerable age, yeah, it can really leave a mark.

[00:51:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: I now believe both children are victims and need help processing, and I've seen with my own eyes how ill-equipped churches are to handle these things. Worse yet because of the family dynamics and difficult personality of the mother, I don't even know how to begin asking the girls, who, by the way, are now 18 and 20, if they're all right, do I trust that the girls are all right as adults now and just leave it be, since all of this happened a long time ago, how can I help the youngest son who gets most of the verbal aggression?

Am I just being hypersensitive because of my own background of abuse as a child and young adult signed a family friend trying to tend and defend without having to reprimand this mom who descends on anyone who offends.

[00:52:21] Jordan Harbinger: Whew. Fascinating story. There is so much going on here.

[00:52:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: I know. It's like three or four feedback Friday letters in one, isn't it?

[00:52:27] Jordan Harbinger: Truly? Yeah. But the theme that connects all of these threads is religion, trauma, and family dynamics. Mm-Hmm. So our friend here has complicated feelings about this church now, which I can understand. She's seen some of the limitations of that tradition and also the damage it can do from her point of view.

Anyway. And this isn't about bashing religion, but it is interesting that it's compromised her in her own life, and now she's seeing it with these children, at least in the area of mental health and sexuality, and I can understand why she's going, huh, okay. Something isn't right here. These kids, they need help.

Sure. So yes, I do think your own background is playing a big role here. I don't know if you're being hypersensitive. I mean, what's the rubric for that? Maybe the situation calls for somebody to be hypersensitive, but yes, of course your personal history is informing your view of all this. What I'm hearing is a lot of anger and a lot of fear and a strong impulse to step in and save these kids from systems that you feel are doing a number on them, their church, their families, and based on what you've shared, they probably need some help.

At the same time though, there are some mitigating factors here. The most obvious one is this is not your family. I hear you that they've been like family to you, but your responsibility to these kids is, um, it's limited. Even if you were related to them, there would still be a limit to your role here.

You're not their parents, you're not their parents coaches. You're not even their sibling. Plus the kids are adults, so it's now their responsibility to seek out the answers and support that they need and not necessarily wait to be saved by somebody else. The second complicating factor here is that this family, it seems kind of enmeshed and defensive.

So if you were to stick your nose in their business, even if your intentions were good, it sounds like the mom would eventually hear about it, and that would almost certainly compromise your relationship with her.

[00:54:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think it would. Although honestly, based on what you've shared about her, I kind of wonder how much that should even matter.

[00:54:19] Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah, I'm having a similar reaction. You have a long history with this woman. She was really there for you when you needed it. That's wonderful. That counts for a lot. But she's also a tough cookie, to put it mildly. She's not easy, and so you need to decide whether you're willing to risk her and her husband's reaction to you intervening in her kids' lives.

The other mitigating factor is that these children, the young women especially, they probably have their own relationship with their faith, with their family, and you gotta respect that, even if it's problematic or just different from what you would want. Now I happen to share your view. I find it very creepy that a church would invite slash make people get up and talk about how they used to be addicted to pornography and the fact that she and her sister played these games together.

Icky stuff. Even even thinking about that, it's hard to know exactly what that means, whether it was coercive or just kids exploring. There's this spectrum of behavior here. It's very complicated, but I'm sure that made an impact on the younger sister. So no, you might not be able to trust that the girls are all right and just leave it be because it happened a long time ago.

I don't think so.

[00:55:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: And the fact that it happened a long time ago, that also doesn't make it better. If anything, the fact that they had these experiences when they were young probably only makes them more formative.

[00:55:31] Jordan Harbinger: But again, even if you could miraculously get through to them, that's still their work to do.

You just, you can't do it for them.

[00:55:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right, right. So you do have the option of talking to the kids directly about how they're doing these days, and you know how they're feeling about the church and about mom and dad and feel them out. And hey, if they let you in, you could talk to them about what you're seeing and what you went through in your own life, the concerns you have.

But my advice to you is to move very slowly here and be very respectful. 'cause A, these kids have a lot to process. This is an extremely sensitive topic, and B, there are layers and layers of trauma at work, and that's complicated.

[00:56:06] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a minefield, honestly.

[00:56:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I agree. But more importantly, I think you need to resist the urge to push these kids to a conclusion that you have already come to in your own way, which is that this church is limited potentially, and that their mom is difficult.

I think that's pretty clear, all of that. And actually I would stay away from your feelings about the mom, at least at first, and let them draw that conclusion themselves, because that's probably the one topic that could spook them. It sounds like. They'll probably go back and tell their mom, oh, auntie Lori is like asking us all these questions about church and saying that you weren't there for us and you talk.

You're not very nice to our brother. I mean, that could seriously compromise your relationship. You're much better off just asking them open-ended questions, being patient, being curious, being empathetic, being a safe space for them, and gently, gently guiding them through their own feelings. Maybe they do open up to you.

Maybe they don't. Maybe they open up a little, but they can't really dig deep into the stuff, at least not with you. Or they do dig deep, but they ultimately decide to stick with the church and or with mom and dad, and they don't have the huge awakening that you might be hoping for. You gotta be prepared for any of these possibilities, including the possibility that broaching this stuff.

Pisses the mom off, but you also have to trust that they're on their own journey. Again, here there's that theme from question one, right? When they're ready to address this stuff, they will.

[00:57:24] Jordan Harbinger: Now about the youngest son, the one who gets most of the verbal aggression, he's a slightly different case because he's still a minor and it sounds like he's actively being harmed.

[00:57:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. But how badly he's being harmed is kind of unclear to me. This feels a little squidgy.

[00:57:38] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I, I'm with you. It sounds like his parents can be very harsh with him. They aren't always sensitive or attuned to him. They're hurting his feelings and that's heartbreaking. But again, the same risks arise with him.

So I'd take the same approach with him, but be even more respectful, more cautious. Just be a good friend to the kid. Maybe in time he'll open up to you, but the real theme here is you can't save every child in this family.

[00:57:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, that's what I think we really need to talk about. Jordan. I find it so interesting that our friend here chose a kind of surrogate mother who she says is very similar to her, but who also has some very, very difficult qualities.

But then she also feels loyal to that mother and to some extent it sounds like she empathizes with her and kind of identifies with her. That's the part of her story I actually find the most interesting, how this family fulfilled such an important function for her. And look, they helped her when she really needed it.

That counts for a lot. And they're also imperfect, and they're making her really angry and concerned now.

[00:58:33] Jordan Harbinger: Such an interesting tension there. I think her feelings about this mom are probably even more complicated than she's letting on.

[00:58:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: My hunch is that she wants to save these kids in part because nobody saved her.

Right. I do wonder if she might be working something out about her own life through this other family has probably been working out many things through this other family. Sounds to me like she sees herself in a lot of them, the mother, the daughters, kind of, even the younger boy, and she's also starting to distance herself from them and see them more clearly now.

So the idealization of this family is probably falling away. Parts of this family that mirror her own are becoming clearer and that can be very painful. I. But she needs to separate these things out before she decides whether to talk to the kids about all of this, because she could have a few motivations here.

[00:59:18] Jordan Harbinger: Man, that's so interesting. There's so many layers here. I wish we had another two hours to talk about every aspect of her story. Like I said, same. There's a lot going on here. So I'm with Gabe. I would take a beat and just sit with these thoughts and feelings that you have, because even if these children do need to be saved, poor choice of words in this context, but you know what I mean, I don't think they're gonna respond very well to that.

But a friend who cares and asks good questions and makes it safe for them to look at all this for themselves, that's a pretty great resource. I know you're coming from a very good place. I appreciate your love and your empathy, and I hope this family is open to talking one day soon and good luck. Okay, what's next?

[00:59:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys. I work in sales in the medical field, and despite having no experience when I was hired five years ago, I've achieved significant success. I consistently meet my KPIs, maintain a conversion rate of over 80%, and generate over $800 more per client outperforming my peers. In my spare time, I read extensively on customer relationships and professional growth to stay current and motivated.

While I credit much of my success to my excellent team, I also strive to exceed expectations with every client interaction. Incredible.

[01:00:26] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, that's amazing. Well done. You sound like a, a rockstar

[01:00:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: and humble too, which I really appreciate. Mm-Hmm. The letter goes on. I was honored recently to be invited to speak at a large conference about my experiences and techniques.

I was even interviewed for an industry periodical, attempting to support another office and a new branch opening. I proposed implementing some of my strategies to benefit my colleagues and the team as a whole. My superior approved this idea and I dedicated hours to creating presentations, role-playing exercises, a team survey, and a lesson for a major team meeting.

I was scheduled to present this program for a couple of hours, but two weeks before the presentation, I met with all of my superiors except the one who initially approved the plan, and every idea I presented was rejected except for the survey. The survey results were reviewed more as an afterthought and fell flat, and I was removed from the presentation entirely.

This left me feeling disappointed, unappreciated, and defeated. Am I being overly sensitive? Should I give up or should I discuss my feelings with my bosses Signed galled and appalled after being stonewalled.

[01:01:34] Jordan Harbinger: Huh? Great question. And again, congrats on being such a badass and a team player. It's, it must have been so infuriating to deal with this.

It's obvious to me from this letter that you're an exceptional employee. None of these opportunities would be coming your way if you weren't super talented and had such a generous mindset. But that doesn't mean you're not gonna hit a wall sometimes. I'm really sorry to hear that your bosses responded to your ideas this way.

That is obviously a huge bummer. I totally get why it left you feeling disappointed and demoralized. That sucks. But you know, it's important to remember that this kind of thing happens sometimes. There are so many possible reasons why these higher ups, they might be going through their own challenges and stresses totally unrelated to you.

They might have been a little thrown or even threatened by your great recommendations. They might have appreciated the substance of what you were saying, but not the style. They might have had their own personal biases against taking ideas from junior people. I don't know. I mean, you don't know. You just don't know.

Gabe, I find it interesting that this pre-meeting included all of the higher ups, except the one who actually gave our friend here the green light on the presentation. That's weird. That makes me wonder if maybe they feel some type of way about that colleague, like, oh, don't let him in May. Maybe they didn't wanna sign off on something that they approved, that the colleague, I mean, approved, which again, those politics totally unrelated to our friend's work.

Agreed. So, no, I don't think you're being overly sensitive. You play with a lot of hearts. People who play with heart get hurt more easily. The fact you took this so hard, it just speaks to how passionate you are, how excited you were, and your expectations for the presentation, which is totally fair. Now that you're here, alright.

I would do two things. First, make room for all of these experiences, the huge wins at work. This exciting opportunity to speak at the conference and this disappointing meeting. And just to hang on to all of the responses. You're getting good and bad. It's so easy to let one disappointing interaction dictate your entire outlook.

[01:03:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's so easy. But that is not the full story here. Not by a long shot,

[01:03:21] Jordan Harbinger: right? You're still an amazing employee. You still have a lot to offer and this isn't the end of the road. I know. Like you post something like this on Reddit and everyone's like, quit your job right now and shit on the boss's desk on your way out.

I mean, it's always, you know, it's like something insane. What

[01:03:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Reddit threads are you reading? I've never seen any Reddit thread.

[01:03:36] Jordan Harbinger: Would, would have a comment like that. You don't even have to be in the Jordan Harbinger sub available on Reddit where Gabriel and I are interacting with you. You don't even have to be in our sub to see a post like that.

You, you could be in the news sub and people are just like, here's a absolutely unhinged way of quitting your job. That would ensure your career is dead the second you walk out the door. Anyway. The other thing I do when the time is right, I would have a brief chat with these higher ups about why they didn't respond.

But you gotta frame this conversation less as, Hey, it really hurt my feelings that you guys didn't appreciate my ideas. What the hell? And frame it more as, Hey, I was thinking about our conversation and I can see that my ideas didn't really land with you guys, but I'm really passionate about this stuff.

I genuinely wanna see our whole team succeed. So I just wanted to ask you, in the interest of being the best possible colleague and pitching you the best possible ideas, what about my plan didn't work for you? Is there something I missed? What process did you guys go through when I shared those thoughts?

Do you have any feedback for me? 'cause I'm super down to incorporate your thoughts and make this presentation even stronger and then invite them to explain why they responded the way they did. Draw them out, ask meaningful questions, try to get them to offer you some specific feedback. And I would just be ready for whatever comes back, whether it's notes on your presenting style, critiques of the specific ideas or an explanation that has just nothing to do with you at all.

Or they give you the runaround and they speak in generalities and then you'll know, okay, these people are not interested in being my partner in this next.

[01:04:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's exactly right. But look, if there isn't a way forward with these people, that doesn't have to be the end of the road for your presentation. To Jordan's point, it sounds like you have done incredible work here.

You could share this presentation and these wonderful exercises with your colleagues and see if they have any feedback for you. Keep refining them. You could turn this whole presentation into, I don't know, a white paper or a LinkedIn post or another conference presentation. You could speak to this whole thing in interviews.

When you look for your next job, you'd be like, Hey, I crushed it. And then I tried to teach my whole company how to do it, and that's the kind of employee I am. Right? I mean, hey, you could use it to land a consulting gig where you train other companies in your industry on this stuff. You, that could be an amazing side job if they let you do that.

I don't know, maybe you'd have to quit first, but there are so many options. I mean, you could try to implement these strategies yourself as best you can at your level and see what the impact is, and then try presenting it to your bosses again, with better arguments, better data. There's so many exciting avenues you could pursue here, and honestly, these other approaches might turn out to be more rewarding than trying to convince these dismissive superiors to give you another shot.

[01:05:58] Jordan Harbinger: Completely agree, Gabe, and way to bring this all the way back to the thing I kicked off with today. The whole, there is no perfect way. It's all obstacles. Oh yeah. This is kind of a perfect example of that, I think. Mm-hmm. For all we know, these higher ups dismissing our friends' ideas, that might be exactly what pushes her to a way better outcome.

So don't let this be a total setback. Work with what you've been given. Be curious. Be open and remember, these are just people's ideas. They're not necessarily a reflection of you personally. And if they are, that's useful too. You'll make that useful if you think of things that way. You're gonna find success no matter what.

I promise you. Hope y'all enjoyed that. I wanna thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out Brian Kloss if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life in business have come through my network. The circle of people that I know, like, and trust.

I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six minute networking course. The course is free. It's not gross, it's not schmaltzy. Networky, sort of glad handing nonsense. It's free on the Thinkific platform@sixminutenetworking.com. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig the well before your thirsty folks.

Build relationships before you need them. Leverage them in your personal life and career. Yes, it works even if you're retired, even if you think you're too old for it, even if you don't need any business stuff. This is a great way to sort of kick off some social relationships, not just for business and certainly not just for booking podcast guests, six minute networking.com.

And hey, if you didn't know there's a subreddit for the show, Jordan Harbinger, like I mentioned earlier in in that last question there. If you're on Reddit, come and join us. Also, if you haven't signed up yet, our newsletter wee bit wiser, Gabe and I share a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you delivered right to your inbox once a week.

So if you wanna keep up with the wisdom from our 1000 plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. You can sign up at Jordan harbinger.com/news show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers discounts, and ways to support the show, all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn where all the, the sane people are. You know, I have a theory since people's names are attached to it. They just say way less crazy stuff. It's not totally immune. There's still some LinkedIn lunatics out there, but, uh, it's definitely, well, it's not Twitter.

You can also find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe. Ms. Rahi. The show is created, an association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer.

Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin. Payne. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with someone else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you'll learn, and we'll see you next time.

If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy. A lot of people hear the name Pussy Eye and they think, all right, what is this? You're just trying to get shock value. Can you tell us the beginning, a little bit of what Pussy Ride is?

When I was reading in the book and you said you just made it up for a lecture, I was like, there's gotta be more to it than that.

[01:08:58] Clip: No, seriously, not really.

[01:08:58] Jordan Harbinger: No.

[01:08:59] Clip: Seriously, they decided to punish us. They opened a criminal case and uh, in two weeks after the performance, we were arrested. We knew how to hide from the cops and for, for a week, dozens of cops were looking for us.

And when they caught us, finally they were so happy

[01:09:18] Jordan Harbinger: making 'em look like fools. And so profession. How does it feel to have these world leaders who are in these private chambers with their tea and their bodyguards, and you're sitting in a Russian prison and they're like these 22-year-old women, they're, they're screwing my world up, man.

Gotta do something about this. Look at how bad they are.

[01:09:36] Clip: Uh, I was really happy that, uh, Putin is in troubles because of us. 'cause they definitely didn't expect anything like that. My mother thinks that I need to, uh, immigrate, run immediately. Yeah. You

[01:09:48] Jordan Harbinger: still live in Russia. I can't even believe. Yeah. You wrote, the Future has never seemed so full of enrich and wonderful possibilities as when I was in a labor camp and literally had nothing but dreams.

What gives you the strength to go forward when you're worried about, are they gonna try to blind me? Are they gonna try to beat me up? I mean, they, they were highly abusive to you while you were behind bars. I just prefer not to think about it. For more from Pussy Riot and world renowned artist, Nadia Kono Kova and her time in Russian prison.

And of course their crusade against Vladimir Putin's regime. Check out episode one 18 on the Jordan Harbinger Show.