44: How to Ease the Pain of Financial Anorexia | Feedback Friday

Transcript for Feedback Friday | How to Ease the Pain of Financial Anorexia (Episode 44)

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today, I'm here with producer, Jason DeFillippo and Kim Seltzer. Hello Kim.

Kim Seltzer: [00:00:08] Hey.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:09] All right, so here on the Jordan Harbinger Show, as much as we love having conversations with our fascinating guests, our primary purpose is to pass along their and our experiences and insights to you. I feel like I say our every time weird, when I do the intro here, but the whole point is we pass along our experiences and insights to you, right? Okay, good. In other words, the real purpose of the show is to have conversations directly with you and that's what we're going to do today here on Feedback Friday. As always, you can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com.

[00:00:38] Kim, how do I introduce you? Are you a therapist or are you more than just a therapist?

Kim Seltzer: [00:00:47] I am so much more. I am that and more. You could just say dating and makeover expert and therapist.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:53] And I'm getting a make-over today. Is that what's happening?

Kim Seltzer: [00:00:57] If you want.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:57] Oh God.

Kim Seltzer: [00:00:58] Would you like an insight or an outside makeover? I can do both.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:01] We don't have that kind of time and an inside make-over sounds like a euphemism for a colonic,just so you know.

Kim Seltzer: [00:01:10] Well, but maybe that's what somebody needs just to get this shit out of them.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:13] Yeah, get your shit together. You heard of that? No. Just get the shit out.

Kim Seltzer: [00:01:17] That's actually not a bad metaphor.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:18] There you go.

Kim Seltzer: [00:01:20] To be honest.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:21] I'll be right back and I'll be back in 90 minutes. I'm getting an inside makeover if you know what I'm saying.

Kim Seltzer: [00:01:28] Now, that this shit is clear, let’s move on.

Jordan Harbinger: [00: 01:31] All right.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:01:32] Jordan’s clear.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:33] Yes, my colon is clear. All right, I'm not sure how this derailed so quickly. I'm blaming Kim. Usually we're more well-behaved on these shows.

Kim Seltzer: [00:01:40] It's always me. But that's what makes it more fun.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:43] All right. First out of the mail bag.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:01:45] Hi Jordan and Kim. I desperately need your help and feedback with this pretty tricky subject which I've been dealing with for quite some time. And I feel like it started affecting my life more and more and I don't want to let it get out of control. I've been struggling with anorexia my entire teenage years and early adulthood. I'm 30 now, and my eating disorder is 100 percent under control. I've been maintaining my weight for about five years and no longer have issues with food. However, restricting and depriving myself of pleasures have always been the thing for me, especially around food. I don't like spending money on food going out and spending money in general on leisure activities or pleasures. I feel like it's escalated in the past year or so. I don't have much of an issue with clothing even though whenever I'm about to make a purchase, something in my head, double checks, do you really need it?

[00:02:31] So I've been living pretty miserably on that edge of necessity only. When I go out with friends, I tend to not to eat, as these events with my friends can be pretty costly, especially when food is involved, so I stick with drinks only. I don't eat out alone, it's not my thing and I feel like it's not necessary to spend money on that, especially when I can have something at home. Perhaps it's also cultural. I'm from Eastern Europe and growing up we didn't go out to eat. For us it was more to celebrate something. You can only imagine how limiting this is for me. I don't feel free and relaxed when I'm out with my friends, is I'm afraid to spend the extra money. It's very annoying, but at the same time I have no clue how to deal with it. Usually people have budgets, but my budget is not spending period.

[00:03:12] Besides food, I feel like every time I spend money it becomes a challenge. If I need to buy a gift, it's not an issue, but when it's something for me personally, it's a problem. With that said, when my vacuum cleaner broke, I had no problem buying a new one the next day without even thinking much about the price. Recently I went on a trip with a friend who eats out quite a lot. I was shocked how that tiny person can have so much food. Anyhow, we spent a lot of money on food. I would have never spent that much. I tried to persuade myself that we had a great time and I enjoyed it all. Yet at the same time, there's that monkey which tells me that it wasn't necessary, and now my head is in that fixing mode, i.e., how to avoid any extra spending for the rest of the month?

[00:03:51] There's this idea of not deserving or something. I do know that most likely it originates from my anorexia, is I used to be the same thought. How do I fix or compensate for eating a meal or cookie? Please guys, if you could help me to figure this out, I would appreciate it so much. I've been your fan for a few years and I trust your BSless opinion, and I'm ready for tough love. If you could suggest any books or anything I can read, I would highly appreciate it, as at the moment therapy is out of the question. Thank you so much. Signed, Struggling Scrooge.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:21] This one's really interesting and since I'm a little out of my depth because I'm not a therapist who knows anything about eating disorders or a doctor or anything. I do see the logic here that she's using, having gotten over in many ways her anorexia and her eating disorder with food. It seems like the same patterns are playing themselves out with her spending. And one key indicator of this, of course, she says, I know it most likely originates from my anorexia. There used to be the same thought. How do I fix or compensate for eating a meal or a cookie? So the calories have just been supplanted by cash. And I noticed that the end uses at the moment therapies out of the question and I'm thinking, “Oh, but why?” Because you don't want to spend the money.

Kim Seltzer: [00:05:07] Right. That's exactly right. I know. And what's so interesting, so when I was working as a therapist in the hospitals, I worked actually on the eating disorder clinic for a while. And what was interesting to me, and obviously, this is kind of the case here, is that restricting food or bingeing isn't even about the food itself. It's about feeling out of control. And those are ways of getting some kind of control in their life, and that was seen across the board. And it's interesting because she even starts the letter with, I don't want to let this get out of control. It was even her words, so she's still feeling out of control. And the bottom line is that she's putting more value in a vacuum than she is herself. And so until she starts kind of valuing herself, and like you said Jordan, I'm putting money towards herself more than a vacuum. That’s when things will start switching because it's going to just keep replacing itself, whether it's food, it's money, whatever. And so she's still not feeling deserving or in control of some sort. And that's what needs to be addressed.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:23] Okay. So this is something that's not going to go away just because she got the food problem handled so well. How do you address the control issue? And also it almost seems like a fine line until you outline all the behavior, right? Because a lot of people love control, but then this is sort of, I don't know, what would you describe those pathological need for control instead of just preference for control or need for control?

Kim Seltzer: [00:06:46] Yeah, and it probably runs deeper. You know there's a high correlation of like, kind of people struggling in the family system of some sort. This probably goes back to her family of origin, and also she grew up in a different culture as well, and so there's external factors here too. And one of the most powerful things was actually working with the family themselves. And I don't know if she's even able to do that, because I don't know how deep we can really get here. But beyond that it's really kind of pulling in and doing exercises. Like she asked about books and things that she can do to help herself. And that's the problem is that she's doing a lot of like more passive things like reading books or doing it, rather than really digging deep and putting money not in a vacuum but into herself. So I mean the first thing would be to help her see her worth, and I mean, there's so many different things that she could do with that, but obviously, therapy's going to be her best bet with this.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:52] Even though she says it's out of the question. I feel like when people see it's out of the question, it's always I just really don't want to do it. I understand it can be kind of expensive. Therapists work, well I should say many therapists work on a sliding scale. So if you say, I don't have the money for this, and I remember this from my college days, you can go in and they'll say, fine, it's 30 dollars an hour or something.

Kim Seltzer: [00:08:16] Yeah, there those are sliding scale places and there's absolutely -- and any kind of help would be better where she's being more active in her approach and helping herself than a passive approach. Because it's still going to feel out of control for her and she's just going to keep replacing one thing with another.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:32] Yeah. So what are some common ways that people supplant their eating disorder? Because obviously the spending thing is what she's dealing with, with Scrooge is dealing with. What other ways should she be? Does it help for her to be aware? Because maybe it's like, oh, you might also turn to this thing and then does awareness of it help or does it just make it worse? Because it gives us suggestions on what else they can sort of micromanaging their life.

Kim Seltzer: [00:08:55 ] Yeah. Well, and the thing that's interesting here is she has an awareness. She even says, there is an idea that, that I'm not deserving. She kind of even spells that out. I think she has that awareness of herself and she keeps kind of seeing herself as not having any kind of self-worth. And I think if she just went and found something that she does feel good about and stop comparing herself with other people, and she's got a pull in and see what she is about. And I don't know if she ever really did that. Maybe she had messages growing up that she wasn't good enough or she was constantly striving for something. And so I think getting involved in different things that can make her feel good as well, like as well as therapy. Anything that can put her into action rather than this kind of passive thing is going to be the best thing for her.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:51] Yeah, I really feel bad when people have an awareness of how much this type of problem damages their life. Because I have so much sympathy for her, and yet, I think if I went on vacation with somebody, and they never wanted to spend any money, I would be so irritated by that, and she knows that.

Kim Seltzer: [00:10:08] Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:09] So it's double, it's like two stab wounds at once, because you know that you're depriving yourself of something you like and then also you know it annoys everyone around you, but you can't stop.

Kim Seltzer: [00:10:19] Right, exactly. But that may be her sense of control in a weird way, right? Like if she doesn't think that she can just relax and enjoy her time with her friends, but that she's so busy controlling the money situation and the food situation that actually gets her some attention in some weird way. Do you know what I mean? Like that's almost the cycle she might be looped in. And so again, it's going back to having people like her for her that she doesn't have to like get the attention or gain control by doing these things that she's doing. I think she's feeling pretty empty as is my guess. And yeah, and it is sad, but I love that she has this awareness. I just would love for her to kind of put all the stuff into action and the excuse of that the therapy is out of the question. I would really love to know what that's about, because usually excuses like that are fear based.

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[00:13:37] All right, next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:13:38] Hi, Jordan. I'm 21 years old. My mom is American and she's been psychotic since I was born. My dad is Mexican, and we live in Mexico together. My mom is a really complicated person. She doesn't have a sense of reality, can't be in public because she's annoying and it is so hard to get along with. I decided to rent an apartment with my cousin in the same city, and my family is helping me with the expenses. My dad still lives with her, but I really feel bad for him because he's getting old, he’s weak, and is having an unhappy life. I have three brothers who live in the US, but I'm here with this situation and I don't know what to do. She should probably be in an institution, but I can't manage to do that myself. My dad won't do anything. He's cheap and weak, and I don't have the courage or money to do something. Also the house where they live as awful and dirty. I hope you understand my situation. I really need advice. Thanks, Serious Mommy Issues.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:29] Yikes. So this is a serious sort of medical situation with a family serious.

Kim Seltzer: [00:14:34] This is a serious situation, and they're in Mexico so I don't even know kind of the resources they have there either. But my first question is where are the brothers? They're in the U S making a living so far. Why is she stuck with this responsibility, or why is she putting this upon herself? I mean, that's my first question.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:00] So lean on the brothers and say, “Hey, mom needs to be in an institution. Send me some money or whatever.”

Kim Seltzer: [00:15:07] Right. There needs to be some intervention. She obviously can't do this herself and she's putting it upon herself for some reason, and the dad may need some help too. But again, without knowing the resources and in Mexico, I don't know, you know what kind of like government funds there are, because yeah, I mean people with psychosis that can show up in many different ways. Delusions, hallucinations, talking incoherently, like I don't even know how bad she is.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:34] Yeah. I guess we don't really know. But if she can't be in public because she's annoying and hard to get along with, that doesn't sound very good.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:15:41] But this is also coming from a 21 year old questionnaire, and you know whose parents weren't annoying in public at 21?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:47] Yeah, that's true. I think she's probably worried about the fact that her mother has been psychotic since I was born. I mean that, I'm not even sure what that means, but that does not sound good at all.

Kim Seltzer: [00:15:58] I'm sure she, yeah, embarrassed.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:59] It sounds to me like the hidden question here is can I move out with my cousin and kind of not worry about this as much? She says, I feel bad for leaving my mom with my dad because he's getting old, weak and is having an unhappy life. So it sounds like she's saying I need to get out of here, but I don't know how because I feel guilty.

Kim Seltzer: [00:16:22] Yeah, I totally saw that too. It reminds me, I had a client who was in this situation, but I mean there were more resources obviously, but she was having so much guilt moving out of the home into her own place. But when she finally did, it was so freeing for her. And it just kind of structured her life in a better way. She put some boundaries around it because like you said, in this case, it's going to eat her alive too, and she's not going to have a life and she needs to take care of herself too, or she's not going to do anyone any good. But I really encourage her to reach out to the brothers, I don't know what that's about, and just kind of rally as a family while she still has her own life as well.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:02] Ha, yeah, I think that might make sense. Might be the only option that she has. But what if the brothers say to heck with this, it's too much trouble. Mom's crazy. What'd you do then?

Kim Seltzer: [00:17:12] That's up to her. I mean, what is she going to do at that point. If she doesn't have the resources? She's young. I mean we don't even know if she has the resources to, well she rented an apartment with her cousin. Like what about the cousin? Like can the cousin or aunts or uncles help? I mean, I don't know. I guess I'd really look into what are the resources there. That's always the first thing. And if it's not family, then what are some of the government type of programs that are available to them? I think that almost like kind of a crisis situation that she really needs to reach out to somebody who can help. I don't if there's social workers there too, who can come in and do an assessment and help them get resources they need. She cannot do this on her own. That's the bottom line. There's no way.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:59] I was going to say she's 21, that is way too young to have that kind of responsibility. In fact, it's too much responsibility for one person.

Kim Seltzer: [00:18:06] For anybody.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:07] Any one person. Yeah, let alone, I mean you're 21, you sound very mature, but essentially you're still a child and you should not have to take care of both of your parents, your aging dad and your mom who has mental health issue, and may need to be hospitalized. It's unfair of anyone to ask you to do this on your own. And so I understand why you feel guilty, but I think, look, it's important for her to have a life too. She can spend the next decade taking care of these parents because her brothers don't give a shit or are not around.

[00:18:39] I'm not saying that that's what they're like, but they live in the US, that's fine. Maybe they're unaware of how bad the situation is, but once she says, “Hey, this is what's going on.” If they don't offer support, then maybe it's time for her to be a little more selfish as well. I understand.

Kim Seltzer: [00:18:56] Exactly, and if the brothers can't help the parents, then maybe their brothers can help her. I mean, that's the thing. It's like if they have resources, what are they able to do? So I totally agree. Yeah, if you're listening, you cannot do this on your own. Go get help.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:14] All right, next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:19:15] Dear Jordan, I'm in the best relationship of my life. We've been together since last year and things have been too good to be true. Communication is amazing. We set goals together. We both see this as something that we take very seriously and I can see myself being ready to commit further and potentially get married, which is crazy for me, because that does not happen to me as quickly as it has with her. The one problem is that she's still really good friends with her ex-boyfriend. She dated him for two years and was involved with him several times up until a month before we started dating. She also works with him and sees him all the time. She's been really upfront telling me that she has no feelings for him that way anymore. She's reassured me on multiple occasions that I have nothing to worry about, and I honestly have zero reason not to trust her.

[00:20:00] I do trust her and I don't doubt her. I've met the guy and he's really nice. She tells me that when they hang out they talk about me and how happy she is and how happy he is for her that she has me. I told her that my main concern with it is her spending time with him and wanting or getting something from him that she can't get or won't look to get from me. We discuss him and she's given me some peace knowing that everything is okay, but it's still frustrating and annoying whenever I see his name pop up on a text message, which is all the time, or when she tells me they're going to a movie or hanging out together. Any advice you can give me on this would be very appreciative, and it would help me to either just get past this once and for all, or that may be I'm overreacting and enjoy what we have together. Or something that I need to address or discuss with her on how this has me questioning things. It would mean a lot to me if she would move on from him and focus on a future with me. Sincerely, Can Exes Be friends?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:52] Yeah, so this is interesting because I understand trying to be friends with your ex and all that stuff. I get it, but on the other hand, it was like, oh this seems all other talk to each other, oh they work together. Okay, they talk, all right. I mean, and then it's like, oh they go to the movies together, the text pops up all the time. They're going to hang out on their own. I'm like, well, it's a little inappropriate. It's a little inappropriate.

Kim Seltzer: [00:21:20] I agree.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:21] And I say this is a guy, and so I'm projecting a little bit, but if he's single and popping up on her phone and they're going to the movies and they're hanging out and you're not invited, I'm thinking he's scheming. Even if she has perfectly friendly, platonic intentions, it sounds like maybe he's like, well, one day she's going to get sick of this guy and I'm going to be right there because we’re BFF, and it's a little inappropriate for that to be the case. If it was an ex, and you guys all got along and they work together and sometimes you guys all grabbed dinner as a group with other people or you all go see a movie or something, that's fine. If you have a group text chat or they chat occasionally that's fine. But it sounds like he's texting her all the time. They're hanging out all the time. They're seeing each other all the time. It's not just like this ex is part of the social circle. It's like this ex is basically hanging on.

Kim Seltzer: [00:22:14] A 100 percent, and it almost is like she's having her cake and eating it too a little bit. Like I almost feel like she's dating two people. Just the way that this is written, and I'm saying this as a woman, why is it that she has the need to have such intimate communication and conversation with the ex? And it's kind of vague too how it ended. It's like, well you know, they ended, it didn't work out cause it just reached its time, and there was just no going forward because of their differences, but I don't know. Yeah, you know the thing is that he's not feeling safe with the situation. And in order for a couple to really be successful, well at least they're open and that's great. But there's a lack of like safety here, it doesn't feel like it's a full end and team together because she keeps, well no, everything's fine, but then she, yeah, she goes to the movies. And less, there's something that's being omitted from this description. It seems highly inappropriate. And I agree with you, it would be so different if it was like group texts here and there, but it seems almost more intimate to me.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:30] Yeah, it does. And it seems like I just, fuck, I'm a dude, I get it. Oh, you know, if I just stay friends with her, it's going to be totally cool and even if they are friends, if my ex and I were super tight and should never have dated and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and we're still friends. If it's been years, fine. But as a guy, and maybe I'm just a scumbag. So take it with a grain of salt. Any guy that does this and has another agenda, just seems so obvious. But maybe it says more about me than it does about them. That's also very possible.

Kim Seltzer: [00:24:07] No, I would've never guessed that, Jordan. No, we look, they always come from our own projections and our place. And I'm thinking about too, like how would it feel for her if the roles were reversed? Like if he was texting some woman and oh no, we're just friends, and I'm just going to go out to a movie with her, you know, but it's cool. We're just friends and like how would that feel for her? And here's what I recommend because he started out by saying communication is amazing. We set goals together. But there's this elephant in the room that they're not talking about. And I'm wondering if he is really like come clean and talk to her directly how this is making him feel. I think he's trying to be the cool guy and not be like, I don't want to create drama by saying I'm a little bit concerned or jealous or whatever it is, but he has to. He has to be direct and he has to let her know how this is making him feel for her to understand kind of the severity of this. Otherwise, she's just going to keep doing it. And I think as a couple, like you have to set boundaries on each other. I mean they're in this together. There are a couple and he's not okay with this and she's got to know that.

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[00:27:39] This episode is also sponsored by Travel Portland. I recently went to Portland with Jen. I brought Jen here with me to help me do this spot because I got the hiccups, and I can't say one freaking sentence without hiccupping. We went to Portland, and it was incredible. Jen ended up wanting to move there, and there's 600 plus food carts. Let's just start there. The first thing we did was put our crap in the hotel and walked down to these two block, all food carts, and we just ran through there and tore it up.

Jen Harbinger: [00:27:59] Apparently they have over 600 food carts and out of those, my favorite one is Nong’s Khao Man Gai. It's that this Thai chicken over rice. It's delicious and you can get crispy chicken skin added on top. I love that. And they had this famous Nong’s Khao Man Gai sauce that you can buy.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:19] Yeah, we ended up having to bring some of that sauce home, which is normally you don't bring the sauce home and your luggage. Let's just put it that way. That's how much she liked it. They've got a ton of hiking trails too. Portland's famous for nature, especially trees. They have hundreds of years old trees that people protect that are like in the middle of the city or even in the middle of buildings. They've got 80 miles of groom trails, fire lanes, forest roads. You can hike all through the city. Our friend Vanessa Van Edwards, who you all know from the show, she lives up there. So it's just an amazing situation of like living in nature being just walk out your back door and go hiking and then go to one of the 76 breweries. We try to handful of course, and get some beer. They got the sour beer they're famous for.

[00:29:02] It's just really good food, really good coffee, and everyone was super nice. It wasn't just kind of a fake friendly. Everyone wanted to show us their favorite thing in the city. From Uber drivers to random people we met on the streets while we were walking. Everybody wanted to chat and tell us something great about Portland because they knew we were from out of town.

Jen Harbinger: [00:29:21] Another awesome thing is that you don't need a car while you're there. The public transportation is awesome.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:27] Portland is also a hub for artists, entrepreneurs, creators. They've got a lot of community studios, co-working spaces, warehouses, maker spaces where you can sort of DIY your way around town. They got a Saturday market, every Saturday, Sunday, all the way through the end of the year and I think it's the largest arts and crafts fair in the United States or one of, and you can do all kinds of making jewelry, printing, digital fabrication. You can create wood, metal. There's classes, there's all kinds of stuff you can do, get your hands dirty. Really get in there and make stuff and hang out.

[00:30:01] It's just a really active place, and people who live there. Like I said, people who live there, they love it. My friend is into, this sounds so weird. Hi, Cal. My friend is writing a book about trees of Portland, and that's a thing there. Like I said, they've got these 300 year old trees, but people are so into the nature. They always want to show you this statues and they want to show you the buildings and they want to show you everything you. Portland is a city that has as much city or civic pride as any other major city that I've ever been to except it's not centered around sports.

[00:30:36] So whereas people in Chicago are die hard Cubs fans, people in Portland are fans of coffee, food, trees, nature. Now's a great time to plan a trip to Portland to because summer is the best time to be there. Warm, sunny weather, perfect for spending time outdoors, kayaking, windsurfing, hiking. They got mountain hood, they got the Columbia River Gorge. The coast is reachable within a couple of hours. It's just an incredible place to go. You can eat local the whole time and I highly recommend it. So now's a great time to go out there, and you might even run into us out there because like I said, Jen wants to move there. So visit travelportland.com to start planning your trip. Jen, take the tagline.

Jen Harbinger: [00:31:10] You can in Portland.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:13] All right.

[00:31:15] All right, next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:31:16] Hey there, Jordan and Jason. I'm a 26 year old real estate professional living in Los Angeles, and I live in active and social lifestyle. While I'm very confident in some areas of my life, the two areas where I lack confidence are dating and approaching new people who appear cooler, more interesting, or more successful than me. I suppose you could have classified me as the awkward and far from popular choir nerd in high school. I was in a bottom tier sorority in college, and I certainly never felt at home with the cool crowd. It's been years since high school in college and I've gained a tremendous amount of self-confidence since those old days. Yet I still have issues with seeing myself as an awkward person in social settings. Over the past few years, I've worked hard at slowly overcoming these insecurities in my professional life because I'm able to act in step into my role as a business woman and communicate with clients and colleagues.

[00:32:03] I also became a greeter at my church because this forced me to step out of my shell. This really helped me meet new people because I see it as a job to talk to everyone. However, when the workday is over and the acting is over, my personal life is a completely different story. Dating and approaching men I'm genuinely attracted to and interested in has not been the easiest for me. I go to a lot of networking events and I'm a member of a meet up group for professionals, so I definitely have the opportunity to meet likeminded people. Whenever I go to these events and parties, the same thing always happens. I ended up gravitating towards people I feel safe mingling with and I spend the entire time chatting with people already know, or mingling with men I'm not physically attracted to, or I frequently get trapped in 15 minute conversations with the random creepy and clingy guy.

[00:32:48] Whenever I see men that appear interesting and attractive or if I see a group of people who seem cooler or more successful than me, I get really nervous and can't approach them or join in the conversation. I feel even more awkward, and I probably come across as rude, unapproachable, and curt. I can't stand the fact that I always do this. I usually leave feeling mad at myself because I never mustered up the courage to talk to the man or group of people I found interesting. I'm assuming that this is some sort of imposter syndrome happening here, but I greatly welcome your insight and advice. What are some tips and suggestions that you would give to help me and others struggling with similar lack of social confidence. Sincerely, Socially Sabotaging Myself.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:27] So I get this. I mean, I understand what it's like to think, oh, these people are cool. I don't know what to do. What am I going to do now? I don't get it. I'm feeling introverted. How do I break out of the shell? Oh wait, that was awkward, runaway. You know, I get that.

Kim Seltzer: [00:33:42] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:43] So what do you suggest for her? This is not a very unique problem, but it sounds like she's already made tremendous strides moving forward and it seems like she's really trying to change and not just saying, how do I navigate this situation because I have to? It sounds like she's wants to become good at this, because she knows it's important.

Kim Seltzer: [00:34:04] Yeah. Well, you know how you were talking about before that awareness. She definitely has that awareness. I mean the problem here, and actually it's a really common, really common issue that a lot of women struggle with that I help with, and that is, is that she's still seeing herself as that awkward person back in the day. She said like in the old days she was that awkward girl and she's still having, it's kind of having that self-confidence. What's interesting, and I love this for her, is that she's able to act as if when she steps into that role as the business woman. And so I see this so common when you have like really confident people at work, and they just rock it out. Why? Because they have a script, they have a role and they have a purpose.

[00:34:51] But when you strip that away from them and they're just left to their own kind of devices, it's hard for them because they don't see maybe their value. So in her case, I think that's what's happening. It's like who is the real her outside of the work role that she plays, which is way, way like less stressful for her because she knows that she's got that down. So it's going to take a little bit of practice and this is what I'm saying, I think she's in her head all lot. Like she's constantly comparing herself to others. She's putting herself down. She has a lot of like gremlins going on in her head. And so I would probably do a lot of work with her on just visualizing her as that confident girl going, and just as she's doing in business.

[00:35:40] And sometimes you have to act as if, until you become, and having those positive experiences. I think she has a lot of fear of rejection because she's not feeling good enough. She keeps comparing herself to others. So the more that she can see herself worth and at that takes visualization or positive affirmations that she has at home. I know that sounds kind of cheesy, but it really does work. Like writing down all her strengths and know all that she is and looking at the things that she's good at rather than focusing on what she's not. She'll have the confidence going into like a social situation where there's not a script and be that girl.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:18] Yeah, I think high performers and smart people in self-professed geeks like this gal here, it's kind of a classic personality trait to think what are the things that I am weak in? I want to fix those, and that's great. But that's what causes imposter syndrome too because you think, okay, I want to fix all these weaknesses. Holy crap, I have so many weaknesses. And then you don't focus on your strengths. You only focus on those weaknesses because those are the areas that need attention. So you have that problem in that you're magnifying or I should say shining a spotlight on those areas and that's what she's doing here. So she psyches herself out essentially.

Kim Seltzer: [00:36:53] And I'll take it one step further. You're exactly right, is that most likely she's very left brain and analytical in nature. People who are really intelligent and do well in the business world. That's why the script works because they have the words. But if she can have more practice at the feelings and exercising her right brain so to speak, so that it's not about what she knows when she goes into a social situation, but how people feel when she's around others, and talking more in personal stories and feeling based type of things, not the facts. I think that's going to really serve her as well.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:30 What about before we put a button on this? What about the -- I frequently get trapped in 15 minute conversations with the random creepy, clingy guy. This happens frequently. That's a discrete separate problem. What's a way in which she can get rid of guys like that? Because I know exactly what she's talking about. The guy says, “Oh, this is kind of shy.” She's not talking to anyone. I'm going to go over there, and I have a better shot because she feels shy. She's going to want to talk to me, and I can try my luck because I also have low social status and I think that I have a shot.” And she's like, “Ugh, why do these guys always approach me? How do I get rid of them?”

Kim Seltzer: [00:38:07] Yeah, I mean, and I think this goes along with the fact that she's, again, not being assertive and having the confidence to be assertive with these guys, so that they're kind of like you said, they pray on her. And that if she's not feeling right in a conversation to cut that off, but she's got—

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:25] How?

Kim Seltzer: [00:38:26] How? To just simply say it. It's nice meeting you, but I got to meet my friend over there. I have to go to the bathroom, whatever it is that she can just cut it off. She doesn't have to stay in something that she doesn't like. And I think she probably falls in that trap in many areas of her life, and she feels guilty. She doesn't want to make people feel bad, that kind of thing. But again, she's got to stop thinking about other people and think about herself and her self-worth. And if she's not liking this conversation then bolt, you don't have to stay there, and go talk to somebody that you do want to talk to, but she's got to feel that other, those kinds of people like the higher quality people in her, her definition that she's worth that. She's got to see that for herself first.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:13] All right, next up,

Jason DeFillippo: [00:39:14] Dear Jordan, in a situation where I'm really mad at people or my boyfriend in particular, I'm finding it hard to distinguish between rational and irrational reasons to be angry. I'm always trying to have my standards like for instance, honesty, respect, et cetera. As a guideline, and this already helps a lot. Yet I'm still finding it hard in that very moment to distinguish if a person is behaving according to my standards or not, because I can usually talk myself into justifying or judging any kind of behavior. And I can always find good arguments for either side. For example, my boyfriend has a lot of business traveling, and I generally try to support him in pursuing his career. In the past three weeks. He was so tired from traveling that he stayed at the place where he's working instead of coming back to where we live, which is totally fine and I fully understand it.

[00:39:59] So I told him that he doesn't always have to do the traveling and then I can come to see him as well. Even though at the moment I'm really busy with my PhD, and also I'm moving flats next Thursday. Here's where it stops being fine for me. Since he always decided spontaneously to stay another weekend. Flights are way too expensive for me. So this Friday, I got up at 4:30 a.m, went to work at 6 a.m to still be able to tick all the boxes on my to do list. Then I took the train to Frankfurt at 2 p.m, and arrived at 8 p.m where he was going to pick me up. Yet he was 20 minutes late, and I was standing there in the freezing cold. We had a little discussion over this, but in the end he saw that this was super rude, especially since he had no real emergency.

[00:40:35] In general, I didn't feel particularly valued because I went through all the stress and he didn't manage to leave work 20 minutes earlier. I think being busy is not an excuse, because I'm also always busy doing a PhD and he could have easily just picked me up and finished work at the hotel. Like I said, there was no emergency but just a lot to do. The next evening we went out for dinner and at about 10:30 p.m, we left the restaurant. Since I was really tired from the day before, I wanted to go to bed. Well, he wanted to go to the bar next to the hotel. If you only had a quick drink, this would have been absolutely fine for me, because I would have been sleeping anyway. Instead of only having one drink, he stayed for three hours and when I asked him if he met new people there, his response was “Not really.” What kind of answer is that?

[00:41:17] I generally don't believe that he was meeting women or at least I'm not concerned about that right now. Yet I have the feeling that there's some sort of secrecy going on because he doesn't like to drink yet he definitely has had some alcohol and he smelled a lot like cigarette smoke. In Frankfurt, people are still allowed to smoke in bars, so it was probably secondhand smoke. Still I was so annoyed at the situation that I told him to move away from me, because the smell is really bothering me. From the alcohol, he was snoring so much that I couldn't sleep, and I was so annoyed that I ended up poking him every time he snored. I know this is not really the high road or high value behavior. So right now, I'm just angry at everything he does or did, and I'm finding it very hard to distinguish what's reasonable and what's not. It would be great if you told me how you know what is reasonable and what is not. When you are seeing the red mist and know that probably some of your actions are irrational. I'm looking forward to your advice. Best, Stuck in Frankfurt.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:09] So I'm not totally sure what's going on here, but the guy sounds kind of like just a selfish, immature guy. I'm not totally sure what the deal is, but it almost sounds like maybe either he's not that interested in her or he's just really, really self-centered. Probably both.

Kim Seltzer: [00:42:30] Yeah, but I think the bigger issue is why is she staying in this? Like I guess she keeps going over all these scenarios that is building up a lot of anger, and that's how she starts, is that she gets mad. But what is making her stay in this, and not doing anything about it and setting boundaries with this guy. Because he keeps doing things over and over, but yet she still stays. So to me, this is an issue of her, like really being direct and communicating, first of all, what's making her angry at the time, not letting it build up. And then also setting boundaries with him and what she's going to put up with and what she's not. And she's not going to just drop things just to accommodate him either. So I kind of see it both ways. Like she, I think has a little bit of the piece of him kind of treating her, or giving her crumbs at this point.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:27] Yeah. It sounds like, well first of all, he's treating her as an option. She seems to be treating him as a priority, which you should never do.

Kim Seltzer: [00:43:35] Totally. Yes, exactly. It's imbalanced. That's what I'm saying. But by her allowing that, she's allowing that pattern and behavior. And so I mean, I guess her first question about the whole where she gets mad at people and she's having a hard time distinguishing between rational and irrational reasons to be angry. I think this is a pretty rational reason to be angry if somebody keeps doing this. But it's on her to be direct with it and deal with it, and not just like, let this happen over and over again.

Jordan Harbinger: [00: 44:09] It's taken up a lot of her cognitive bandwidth. I'm reading this letter and it's like 10:30, this happened. 20 minutes later, this happened. Then on this other day this happened, she's doing a PhD, but she's spending a lot of time thinking about, okay, when is this boyfriend guy going to do this is use, oh he doesn't drink, why did he stay out? So she's overthinking this a lot and then he comes home and he's snoring and she's mad at him, but the problem's not handled. It's like you got to ask him what's going on here? Because there's some other issue. But the other issue could just be, “Hey, I don't really like you that much, but I'm happy to sleep with you until I find somebody else.”

Kim Seltzer: [00: 44:44] Exactly, exactly. But she's not going to know about if she keeps allowing it or not talking about it. And you're right, like I was reading this, and I was exhausted just like after. I can't even imagine how she must feel, like it must be exhausting to be in this situation. But again, people come to a tipping point where you know, and I think this is where she is, so she's got to do something about it. But if she likes being in this kind of cycle, then stay in it. If not get out or deal with it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:20] Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week, and thanks to Kim for being our guest co-host on this Feedback Friday.

Kim Seltzer:[00:45:25] Thank you. I always love these.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:28] Don't forget, you can email us friday@jordanharbinger.com. If you've got the old fan mail, Friday inbox from the old show, from the art of charm, get rid of that, delete that. Friday@jordanharbinger.com is where we're at now. We'd love to answer your question on the air and keep you anonymous, of course. I'll link to the show notes for this episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com/podcast. I'm on Instagram and Twitter @jordanharbinger. It's a great way to engage with the show. Jason, you're on social media.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:45:54] I'm on Instagram @JPD, and Twitter is jpdef, and you can check out my other podcast, Grumpy Old Geeks.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:00] Kim?

Kim Seltzer: [00:46:00] And you can find me at seltzerstyle.com, Twitter is @seltzerkimberly, and you can check out my new podcast, Charisma Quotient on iTunes.

Jordan Harbinger:[00: 46:10] All right, keep sending in those questions to friday@jordanharbinger.com, and we'll see you next time.