59: How to Make It Clear You Just Want to Be Friends | Feedback Friday

How to Make It Clear You Just Want to Be Friends - Feedback Friday (Episode 59)

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. I'm here with producer, Jason DeFillippo, and my friend, Marni Kinrys of the Ask Women Podcast. Here on the Jordan Harbinger Show, we love having conversations with our fascinating guests. Of course, our primary mission is to pass along their and our experiences and insights to you. In other words, the real purpose of the show is to have conversations directly with you. And that's what we're going to do today here on Feedback Friday. You can reach us at friday@jordanharbinger.com. Try to keep them a little bit concise. Jason's fingers are falling off over here from all the editing.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:00:31] Oh, my God.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:32] Yeah, and these were pages and pages long, but I think today, we've got some good ones. We had to call it a little reinforcements. Like I said, we have Marni Kinrys of the Ask Women Podcast, because a lot of dating and relationship stuff came in, and this is right in her wheelhouse. It's more dating focused than usual. So if you're not interested in the dating and relationship stuff, well good luck being dying alone. You might want to move along. Although there's a guy who barfs when he kisses women, so you might want to stick around literally just for that because that's going to be a good one. As always, we've got some fun ones, some doozies, you know like a guy who barfs when he kisses women, so I can't wait to dive in. Jason, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:01:07] Dear Jordan, I'm a 31-year-old male medical consultant, no kids, single happy and go out on serious dates, maybe one to two times a month. My question/problem is that I can't stop looking at a woman's cleavage during a conversation, and they notice, causing them to cover up. It's frustrating because it could be a client I'm consulting with, my boss or a random female I'm conversing with at a bar. Honestly, I am legitimately not physically attracted to many of them. This is 100 percent my fault. I'm not blaming the females for even the second. It's so disrespectful. I feel horrible about it because I'm making my listener feel uncomfortable. I work in a professional setting. I lead conferences at work, and I don't think I could fully respect somebody doing that to me if I was a chick. When I become aware of it, it gets worse or more obvious. My higher thinking says, “Dude, totally inappropriate.” My brain says, “Dude, cleavage. Look!” The billion-dollar question is what is the psychology of this? Why do you think I'm doing it? And is there any way I can correct this? My warmest regards, The Booby Snatcher.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:14] Okay, so you came up with that name for him, obviously, he did not.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:02:18] Absolutely. That was mine. That was all mine.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:21] What do you think Marni? Because when I saw this I was like, okay, well this isn't, I mean he's 31, medical consultants. Doesn't sound like a weird guy otherwise. I mean we edit these emails down, but he doesn't sound—

Marni Kinrys: [00:02:35 ] Yeah, I'm sure there wasn't other pervy stuff in there. He sounds like a totally normal person. To be honest, like I can't help staring at a woman's cleavage as well if it's hanging out in front of me. And I'm not a lesbian, I'm into dudes. So I don't think that there's a psychological issue going on. Like I don't think that he wasn't nursed or he was overly nursed when he was a baby. I just think he's a person who sees cleavage in front of and he either is curious about it or just likes looking at it. I think the thing to focus on for the Booby Snatcher is how to distract himself and how to stop looking once he does look once. Like taken two seconds of cleavage and then try and focus elsewhere. Because it's really easy to reprogram your brain to do things. You just have to give an active effort to doing so. And then eventually the new behavior will become normal behavior. So for this guy, I think he has to learn how to be really focused for about a week to two weeks on not focusing on cleavage, and then that behavior will become the new behavior for him.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:39] So I would say Booby Snatcher grabbed some of our habit change episodes. We have, first of all, Benjamin Hardy. Sure. He talks about changing your environment, which might be a little bit less direct. We also have Sean Young who's very helpful with this, and he uses acronyms to remind you of the type of habit because this is automatic behavior. This isn't something where he's going, in fact, it might also be a little bit compulsive. But it doesn't sound like an addiction where he's looking at porn all day or anything like that. It's a just—

Marni Kinrys: [00:04:08] It’s not like a fetish or anything either.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:09] Right, yeah. It's just one of those things. In fact, I was in New York a couple of weeks ago in a meeting with my wife and my agent, and my agent had this low cut dress on and I was like, oh, I'm totally, I think I just stared at her cleavage for like 25 straight seconds. Didn't even think about it. It's just hardwired.

Marni Kinrys: [00:04:25] It's just there. It's just there. I'm sorry. It is just there.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:29] I get it being embarrassing though, like you don't want to be known as this single pervy dude. Although I don't think most women are thinking that. Marni are women like, “Eiw, why is he staring at me?” It doesn't make sense to think like that when you're wearing something like that.

Marni Kinrys: [00:04:42] I will say that if I'm having a conversation with somebody, I do see them glance down at my chest. I automatically go to protect myself and cover up in some way. It is uncomfortable. It doesn't mean that it's not, you know, welcomed, or that I'm on attracted to the person. It's just my automatic response to covering myself up. And I don't fault the person who's sitting in front of me. If he just stares and doesn't pay attention to me, then I fault that person.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:09] That would be weird.

Marni Kinrys: [00:05:09] Yeah, exactly. But if he glances down.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:10] The leery thing would be a little much.

Marni Kinrys: [00:05:12] Yeah, exactly. So, but like I cover myself up and then hopefully that situation goes away because it's not visible anymore. And I will be honest, most often, not that I take the blame for it, but I'm like, oh, maybe this shirt is too revealing, and I just cover myself up. It's not a bigger deal than that, for me.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:29]So it's more embarrassing because I know what he feels embarrassed about his now. He's like, “Oh crap! Now she thinks I'm staring. Now, I've made her feel bad,” because he feels guilty about it. He doesn't feel like, “Yeah, girl!” Like he feels guilty about it and wants to stop. Most guys who leer at women are not like that. They're just kind of like, “Wow, she deserved it because she has on,”

Marni Kinrys: [00:05:48] Right, exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:48] Which is not the case here. So I think habit change along with a little bit of awareness around this because since it is automatic, it's not fully automatic, right? He's conscious of it and then goes, “Oh shoot! I need to stop doing that.” I think if he goes for a walk, catches himself doing it and then makes a concerted effort to stop doing that and also finds out what the trigger is. Unfortunately the trigger is probably a low cut top. He's going to have to get some mindful—

Marni Kinrys: [0 0:06:14] It’s a nice pair of breast walking down the street. This is great.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:17] Oh, nice or not, but he's got to figure out what that trigger is and then realize, “Oh, okay.” Maybe catch it in the peripheral vision where some sunglasses outside and go and practice not staring for more than a quick second. It's not that you're not allowed to look at it. It's not Medusa. You don't turn to stone and immediately everyone knows.

Marni Kinrys: [00:06:34] It depends on who is you're looking at?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:36] I guess it depends. Yeah, but it's the whole staring for more than just a couple of quick seconds. That again, makes it awkward, right?

Marni Kinrys: [00:06:41] Yeah, and it's when you're staring or staring continuously, when you're going up, back to the eyes and back down to the chest and then up to the eyes and back. That's when it gets really uncomfortable too. So it's like you are allowed one quick glance at my boobs—

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:54] Just one?

Marni Kinrys: [00:06:55] If my-- yeah, you're allowed one quick glance down and then it's over. Then you have to keep your eyes, chin up.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:01] Dang! Times be the tough. One quick glance.

Marni Kinrys: [00:07:03] Exactly. This is 2018, this is how you have to be now.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:07:08] So what do you think about immersion therapy? Should he just go to like, maybe—

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:12] Sign me up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:07:13] Strip club and just stare at boobs all day, every day, and just kind of get it out of the system.

Marni Kinrys: [00:07:19] I don't think, I don't think it's something that's in his system. I think this is just a normal thing I was saying before, like I do it as well. It's the same thing. When you see something that you don't either you don't see very often or something that interests you or something that potentially leads to something else that you really like, you're going to glance over at. It doesn't matter if you've seen it a million, trillion times, you're going to continue looking at it. Like for me—

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:40] So if I'm only allowed one quick glance and Booby Snatcher is only allowed one quick glance and you look, are you only allowed one click glance Marni or could you just have a license?

Marni Kinrys: [00:07:48] No, no, try not. Okay. Maybe I get two glances because I'm a wa, but sometimes I think women are more uncomfortable when another woman is looking at them that way.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:56.] Really?

Marni Kinrys: [00:07:57] Yeah.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:07:57] I didn’t expect that. Yeah.

Marni Kinrys: [00:07:59] Yeah. I feel horrible when I do it. But then I'm like, well, your boobs are hanging out. How can I not look down in your cleavage? Not that I'm saying it's your fault and I'm blaming you, but it's like there were right there, and they're nice, and I was like ones like that. I know I'm a horrible, horrible person. Well, for me, when I want to change my habits. The first thing that I have to do, I'm sure every single one of these podcasts that you've done with these people have said, you have to make notice of it first. And it sounds like that's a Booby Snatchers doing. He's noticing that this is a pattern for him. And when you can notice things and you can become aware of them in the moment, then you can alter them. And then afterwards the alterations can become more permanent and new automated responses for you. So that yes, you will glance over at somebody’s chest. But hopefully you won't continue to do so throughout the conversation, because I know what happens to them on the back end. It makes him nervous that he's being caught, makes them uncomfortable. He can't conduct himself properly and he's saying that he's doing this in meetings with people, or like his boss and that stuff, and that’s a horrible situation.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:56] I think that was me, but yeah, maybe he was too.

Marni Kinrys: [00:08:59] Yeah, but it's no good for him and it's not comfortable and he doesn't get to be his real self in situations where it's really important to be his real self. He's a medical consultant. That's pretty important.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:11] Yep, agreed. We're going to get deeper into habit change in a little bit with Sean Young PhD. Jason, what's the next thing in the mailbag?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:09:20] Hey Jordan, I listened to you in the podcasts often and I think it's time to do something. I used to be super outgoing and oblivious to what people thought about me because it didn't matter, but that was in high school. When college hit, I realized I was on the bottom of the totem pole in wrestling and social status. As college went on, I became the starter and no one could beat me out. However, I never rose from the bottom of the totem pole socially. Once I hit bottom, I stayed there. Now I second guess everything I do and I'm super shy. When I go out to the bars and social gatherings, I have a full time job, just started a business and I'm going to school for my masters. I'm 5’4 which is an obstacle in the outside world. I'm told every day or close to it that I'm good looking and have a lot going for me. I just can't seem to use that as my fuel. Any advice? I know I have to work on self, but what's the first step? Be more confident, doesn't seem to help. Thanks, Starting At The Bottom.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:17] You know it's funny about this is whenever I hear people say things like, “Just be yourself or just be confident.” The analogy that I give is, well just saying be more confident is a lot like saying be taller. It's like great advice, but how do I do that? So he has the exact same problem here is it's just be confident. Well great. That's just as easy as saying be taller. But if I knew if I was able to be taller, I would need you to tell me to be more confident. So Marni, what do you think? 5’4 not very tall, not the end of the world. I know guys that are five feet tall. I mean Kevin Hart I think is like 5’1.

Marni Kinrys: [00:10:47] No, we talk about this on my podcast and all the time like yes, of course, height is going to matter to some people if that's all your about is only you're height and you have nothing else to offer. If you also have a crappy personality, if your looks aren't that wonderful, if you're down in yourself and Mr. Negative, basically I'm saying if you're on a well-rounded person coupled with this 5’4, then yeah, it's definitely going to matter. But if you are 5’4, just like having a heart and you have an amazing personality, you're funny, you got things going on for you. Even prior to him being like big time, Kevin Hart, he was still awesome. So you can be awesome and be 5’4, and women are going to be attracted to you when people are going to be attracted to you. So that's not a huge obstacle for him. But what is the obstacle? Obstacle is learning to gain that confidence. I used to have the same problem as well, like just be yourself. I didn't really know what that meant because I didn't know who myself was.

[00:11:39] I could kind of see it on the inside of my mind, but I couldn't understand how to project that to the outside world. So I also own a company called The Wing Girl Method. And one of the first exercises that we give to people at The Wing Girl Method is called the Own Your Animal Exercise. And it's a really quick way to put confidence into your body so that you can overcome that first hurdle. And then you can do all the other steps afterwards for building your confidence, confidence internally. But it's a quick way to get confidence in your body. So what I tell people to do is I tell them to select a strong animal or an animal that they really resonate with, that they just think like has it going on. So a lot of people, like men that I work with, they choose either a lion or a bear or a snake or a wolf.

[00:12:30] And then after they choose this animal, I tell them to attach five attributes to this animal and write down these attributes. So they say, this animal is strong, this animal has an edge to them, this animal goes after what they want, whatever it is that they think symbolizes this animal, they write down those attributes. Then I asked them, how would this animal talk? How would this animal walk? How does this animal approach a group of women? How do, so a whole bunch of questions that they have to answer and they have to paint the picture of how this animal does things in the outside world. And then I have them practice being that animal and quickly getting this visualization of an animal and putting it into their body. And when you visualize an animal, it becomes easier for you to emulate that animal rather than search internally for all the reasons that you can project a strong character.

[00:13:22] It's a really quick and easy way to get confidence in your body. So for me, when I having a moment of doubt or where I'm not feeling great about myself, my animal is the Jaguar. So I call on the Jaguar. I can quickly visualize this animal. I know how it talks, I know how it walks, I know how it interacts with other people, and it quickly goes into my body. And then I can project myself in the confident way that I want. And then again, you can work on all the other internal stuff afterwards, but that's a really good first step for just like owning that confidence in your body so you can feel what it's like to not be anxious or uncomfortable. You can walk [indiscernible][00:13:58].

Jordan Harbinger: [00:13:59] So you're like choosing an alter ego in the form of an animal that embodies characteristics that you find empowering.

Marni Kinrys: [00:14:08] yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:08] And then so instead of going, Uh, what is she thinking about? Oh, she's probably thinking of short. Oh, my two, she's a little, is she taller than me? I can't really tell from here. Maybe if I go up next to her. Oh no, she is taller than me. What am I going to do now? You're just like, I'm Cheeta.

Marni Kinrys: [00:14:20] Exactly, exactly. So I used to do this as an exercise for myself. I used to be very uncomfortable and anxious for it. And then low confidence, and this was a part of my journey for gaining more confidence in projecting that to the outside world. So when I was learning to do this, I would go to Wholefoods, which was across the street from where I lived. And I would do lap, so I would do one lap as myself, and I wouldn't take in how people were looking at me and how I was looking at other people.

[00:14:46] And then I would take in this Jaguar and I would notice how I would walk differently, my face would be different, and how people were responding to me differently, and how I was responding to them differently. It was crazy how quickly I was able to make huge changes just by doing this exercise. Because an animal, it's easier to emulate that that animal than to try and search within yourself for all the reasons that you should be comfortable and confident, and then over time those things will fall into place. But you have to have like a good solid base first that's quick and easy to put into your body and into your mind and then even start learning the other stuff.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:31] Yeah, I love the alter ego idea. I love the fact that you can grab the alter ego of an animal and sort of pick characteristics of that animal that you find empowering and use that to not only take your mind off of the situation but use it to sort of reprogram your approach and the way that you think about yourself. When you're embodying the animal, don't walk around and all for it. Don't take it too far, right? Like I'm just imagining you walking around on all fours and Wholefoods. Marni. Being like, I'm a Jaguar and security is like, yeah, we know. Come with us just for a moment.

[00:16:04] Yeah, I love thinking about this in a different way. That sort of reminds me, Jason, of when I was starting off with the whole shyness thing and I kept hiding in restaurants and bars, not hiding under tables or anything, but sort of making myself scarce, and then I started wearing the animal suit so that I couldn't hide, but I didn't have a mask on, and everybody was coming out to me and I just, eventually I was like, okay, I can't hide anymore. I have to talk to people, and that forced them to start conversations with me, which made me much more comfortable in the interactions and then I was able to start conversations with other people.

[00:16:33] And yeah, you know what? I'll tell you something also starting at the bottom, a lot of times, and Marni, you can confirm or deny this. What I've noticed is once I start talking, I feel like the height thing starts to dwindle and importance in a certain predictable way. I had a couple of friends who are really short and when I was in law school, and I remember talking with them about the height and the dating thing and all that, and then one guy goes, you know, it was funny, I was talking with her, they were talking about this, this woman that he worked with, and he goes, she said “She didn't even notice that I was shorter than her.” And I said, “Well, that doesn't even make any sense.” You know, I thought she was just being polite. And then I heard her telling a friend and the friend goes, “Oh yeah, you know, Tim, he's shorter than you.” And she goes, “You know, I didn't even notice.” So she wasn't really lying. She just kind of maybe noticed a little at first. And then after a while she was attracted to him. So in her mind, that was no longer a fact.

Marni Kinrys: [00:17:29] Oh yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:29] It would've made sense if he's standing in front of her, but at the moment she was like, “Is he? Oh yeah, I guess he is.” It just wasn't first and foremost on her mind. Like, I'm sure it is on his mind at the time. So starting at the bottom things everyone notices, I'm short. Meanwhile nobody's really paying attention after the first few minutes.

Marni Kinrys: [00:17:45] Yeah, I talk about that all the time. How a man's face can actually morph into a different person once he starts talking. So if a guy that I see from across the room that I don't find attractive comes up and approached me, I can see him one way, and then when he starts talking and I see more about his personality, I understand more about who he is, his character, his face like literally morphs in front of me to like depending on how I feel about him. So that's absolutely true.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:11] Well, we find that as well that people who are more charismatic, outgoing, interesting and funny are judged as more physically attractive and taller.

Marni Kinrys: [00:18:20] Oh yeah. I bet people say to you all the time that they think you're taller than than you are.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:18:25] We actually, no, we actually talked about this on a previous show. Jordan said that he was two inches shorter than I was. And I'm like, I always thought we are the same height and I never noticed it. And that was, I'm like, Oh, next time I saw him I'm like, okay, what do you want?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now he's bullying me. But I'll also say I used to date, granted, I married a Jen, and she's 5’1, but I used to date women that were universally, in fact, I used to date women that were taller than me by quite a bit. And I mean like 5’11, 6’, 6’1.

Marni Kinrys: [00:18:55] How tall are you?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:56] I am 5’9, and maybe 5’10 my shoes on these days.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:19:02] I thought you were, I thought you were 5’10, half 11.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:06] No, not even close. I mean, close.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:19:08] Oh, those lifts, those lifts that you have.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:09] They’re not lifts, bro!

Jason DeFillippo: [00:19:11] They’re those Jim Simmons shoes you had. Oh, you!

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:14] They're not lifts. If I'm barefoot, I'm probably 5’9, barefooted. So, yeah. But I used to date, I used to date women two to three inches taller than me who would wear heels universally. And as soon as I stopped caring, they definitely didn't care. In fact, I didn't even notice it for the first few years. And then a good friend of mine, a guy called that I call my brother when I was an exchange student, he goes, “Does it suck that all your girlfriends are taller than you?” And I was like, “They're not.” And he goes, “Yeah, they are. All of them.” And he points all these girls in our class that I dated and I was like, “Oh, I don't care. Should I care?” And he put it in my head that it was weird and unusual, and I brought it up with the women and you know what? Ruined my relationship with the one I was dating.

Marni Kinrys: [00:19:56] Isn't it weird how you don't notice a lot of things? Then once you notice them you're like, “Shit, why did you tell me this?”

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:02] It got in my head about it, felt weird about it. It took me years to deprogram that. Years.

Marni Kinrys: [00:20:07] Really? That's so interesting.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:20:10] You identify yourself as his short guy. But I'm a fat guy. I am a 6’ tall, 240-ish pound guy. And most women just look at me and go, “Uh yeah, see ya, move along, move along.” But the personality really kind of does it, because as soon as I get to start talking to somebody it's great. But for what? 15 years, I couldn't talk to anybody because I had the same issues that starting at the bottom had because I was worried about myself. As soon as I got rid of those issues and I could go up and talk to anybody and just say, “Hey, what's going on?” And start having a conversation. I felt thin, I felt thin and it great and we had great conversations and I dated a lot of the girls that I went up to that would normally not date me because I had that chutzpah and confidence. I wouldn't even go chutzpah. It was just like going up to talk to somebody like normal, you know. You just go up and say, “Hey, what's going on? What are you guys doing here? Let's hang out.” You know?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:04] I love it. I think it's not that you can overcome anything in that respect, but there's plenty of reasons and evidence to believe that all these hang-ups that we have can actually be mitigated in a lot of ways. Of course, it would be better if I were that much taller and you are in great physical shape, but barring that, it doesn't have to be what defines you. I know that sounds cliché, but it's true.

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[00:22:56] This episode is also sponsored by WineAccess. All right, wine is something I was never into. You all probably knew that. I never really enjoyed it. I didn't care enough about it. I always thought it was kind of hoity toity it's still, you know, sort of the a pastime of the bourgeoisie. But I was invited to a tasting by Matt Deller, their Master of Wine over at WineAccess, and the agency that brought WineAccess to us. And it was a hell of a lot of fun. And frankly, wine, if you choose the right stuff and somebody who knows what they're doing is helping you, you get amazing stuff and it doesn't have to be 180 dollar a bottle or whatever. The wines that WineAccess offers, these are delicious, limited batch wines from all over the world, and all the wine you see at Whole Foods and stuff, that stuff comes from 10 wineries. These guys know where to find the hidden gems. And these are wines that tastes like they should cost hundreds of dollars but are at WineAccess for like 15 bucks a bottle. And they share the story with you where the wine comes from, what makes it great. And you can get 30 bucks off your first purchase, and oh by the way, if you don't like the wine, they will refund it. Try that with any other place that sells you wine or any sort of anything for that matter that you consume, so I love that. 30 bucks off your first purchase. Go to wineaccess.com/jordan. That's wineaccess.com/jordan.

[00:24:21] All right, next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:24:22] Hey Jordan. I'm caught in a tight situation and would like some advice. Me and my girlfriend of two years just broke up, and FYI, both of us are 22 years old. Since the breakup, she decided she wants to stay friends and I was okay with the idea even though I still have feelings for. Of course, it's natural to have this mentality of I can get her back.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:43] I knew that was coming.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:24:44] Throughout the week. I tried to limit any form of contact with her as much as possible. Not because I was doing stuff like the no contact rule or anything. I just wanted to sort my feelings out and try to improve myself. However, throughout the week she's been initiating conversation. Now this is throwing me off a bit because she's been initiating conversation with me every single time and even asked if she can come to my birthday.

[00:25:09] I'm an emotionally strong person but can never make up my mind. At first I decided I'll move on, but then she contacts me and now I'm in the mindset of, “Oh, I can get her back.” and then the next morning I tell myself to let her go. I just can't decide because I don't know how she's feeling or what she wants. If it's clearly just friends, then I want to tell her that it's okay for us to be friends, but I want some time of no contact to sort myself out. But if she's unsure, if she wants to get back with me, then perhaps I should try and get back with her? I'm just lost as to what to do. I don't want to be the guy who's chasing her, but is just the friend who gets left in the dust once you find someone new and moves on. Cheers, Stuck In The Twilight Zone.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:53] All right, Marni, so I think he nailed it on the last sentence. I don't want to be the guy who's chasing her, but it's just a friend who gets left in the dust when she finds someone new and moves on. I think she broke up with him and then he was like, “Oh no, I'm heartbroken but I better cut you off and figure my stuff out.” And she was like, “Whoa, he's not like melting going crazy.”

Marni Kinrys: [00:26:12] Yeah, pining over me.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:13] Pining over me. What's happening?

Marni Kinrys: [00:26:14] So I want him back.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:15] Yeah.

Marni Kinrys: [00:26:16] So there were 22. I don't know the reason that they broke up with each other, and I don't want to like be little, the fact that they're 22 years old, but I'm guessing it's not anything like any crazy reason that they broke up with each other. But there was a reason that they did break up and most likely when they are broken up, she is still sort of trying to figure out how she feels as well. And she's also has some, she has some tension being taken away from her. Plus she was in a regular routine of having a boyfriend and being friends with friends and vice versa. So that's why she wants to go to his birthday party. I would say that he should stop looking at it from her point of view and take it onto himself, and make the decision of what he wants moving forward. And instead of saying, well, if she wants this, then I'm okay with that. And if she doesn't want this, then I'm not okay with that.

[00:27:03] So there's a quick exercise that you can do to figure out whether or not a decision is right for you. You basically just say, is X for me? Is this girl for me? And whatever comes to your head first, yes or no. That's how to quickly make a decision for yourself. So if you ask yourself that question, if this is this girl for me and you say out loud, yes, then you can toy with possibly getting back together. Invite her to your birthday, see if she wants to flirt with you. See how things go. Pay attention to other people at the same time and don't fixate on her for the entire night and see what happens and see if you guys can rebuild what you guys had before. But if you say, no, then make that decision to decision your decision. Ask her to stop talking to you, block her in certain ways, and go work on yourself. Like you said you would. I think that's the best decision for Stuck In The Twilight Zone.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:56] Yeah, I agree. I think if you flip a coin in the air, you think all right, heads, tails. Tails, I tried to get her back and you find yourself secretly hoping that it lands on tails. You're not ready to hang out with her as a friend. If you're going to invite her to your birthday and you're going to talk to her the whole time and try to get her back. That's exactly what I think is going to happen, and I think it's a bad idea. I think she is trying to get her mind around the idea that you're not chasing her hardcore, so she's an issue and she's got the routine set, like you said. So she's got that feeling and as soon as you start going after her, she's going to be like, “Oh good, this was the closure that I wanted.” I broke up with him and he really cares. So now I'm ready to move on, because I know he's always there.

Marni Kinrys: [00:28:40] Yeah. And this isn't like a malicious thing. It's just a human thing that this is the process that we go through. So I think it's not like don't give her the power, but take some power for yourself that you can make a good decision as well. And the truth is, is like even if you say you want to go back to being friends, you guys weren't friends in the first place. You don't have a friendship yet, nor are you able to have a real friendship at this point. You're too close to being in a relationship. So if friendship is what you want, you still have to give yourself some time to separate, go rebuild your life and she can go rebuild her life, and then you can come back, come back and see if you still want to be friends.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:15] What was interesting for me was the fact that he's saying, “Well, if she's unsure of this, then maybe I should try.” So you're not, when he's there, he's not thinking about what he wants, he's thinking about what she wants and then that dictates his behavior, when really he should be thinking about what he wants, which is, well I guess I'm fine figuring myself out and moving on. Do that.

Marni Kinrys: [00:29:38] Yeah, which was his first choice, which is interesting

Jordan Harbinger: [00:29:41] Exactly. That was his first choice.

Marni Kinrys: [00:29:42] Yeah. He was saying like he even wrote, I'm an emotionally strong person but can never make up my mind. Like he has to forget about the never make up my mind and just understand that he can make good decisions but just don't waiver on them afterwards. And his first decision was, “Okay, I'm good with this breakup. Let's work on myself.” And I think that's an excellent decision.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:30:02] I also think he should ask himself, if she comes to his birthday party and she leaves with one of his friends, how would he feel?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:09] Oh, I like that. Right. So if he invites her and then she leaves with like the kid down the street, is he like, “Oh you go, yeah, you guys are a good match.” Or is he like, “Oh my God, I hate both of you now.” If the answer is “Oh my God, I hate both of you now,” you are not ready to have a friendship. Because I can think of a lot of my ex-girlfriends, and if I invited them to an event and they met one of my friends and they hooked up, I'd be like, “Oh good. I'm glad to see that.” She's really cool. You're really cool. This is great. Not, “Oh crap. I'm super insecure about this.” And I remember when I lived in New York a long time ago, probably 11 years ago now, I broke up with a girl and she started dating one of my friends. I didn't realize she was doing it just to try to make me jealous, but it didn't work. I didn't care. I didn't care. And that drove her to absolute insanity, which reinforced my decision.

Marni Kinrys: [00:31:03] And I've done that before. I've tried to date friends of my ex, or like make out or fool around with friends in my ex, just to try and get the attention of my ex, and when it didn't work. Oh yeah, it kills you.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:14] Yeah. Yeah. So--

Marni Kinrys: [00:31:14] Yeah, I think it's a good indicator.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:17] I didn't use it as a technique. I was just like, “Oh yeah, that's weird that my friend would do that.” I think that's kind of crappy because he didn't ask me, but you know.

Marni Kinrys: [00:31:25] No, but it's a good indicator for you of whether or not you're able to handle the friendship situation. I don't think, I don't think they are. They just like broke up two weeks ago. It's no. It’s too soon.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:33] Yeah, it's going to burn. All right. What's next?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:31:36] Hey Jordan. First of all, I'm a huge fan of your podcast and all the great work you do. I've been listening to it religiously for over a year now, and I've seen my relationships improved both at work and with my family. I owe you guys so much. I don't mean to brag, but I may be your number one fan from Mexico City.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:53] I love how she considers that bragging like, I don't mean to brag, but I like you more than other people in my city.

Marni Kinrys: [00:31:58] Yeah.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:31:58] I consider myself a happy, friendly woman, and I always try to make people feel good when I'm around. I have a group of very close friends that I've met when I was at school and I get along pretty great with people from work. Other than that, I don't get a lot of chances to meet new people. The thing is I work long hours and I don't have that much free time. Since I don't have a big social circle and I don't have a lot of free time, I decided to download Tinder. For the past three years, Tinder has been the only way I meet new guys. Some of these guys have turned out to be great. However, I haven't been able to find anything or anyone really meaningful. I don't know if it's because of the nature of online dating, or if it's because of the guys I meet or maybe it's because of me. I'm really confused and bummed out. I feel like I should delete my Tinder account and try meeting people the real way. But honestly I don't have time to meet people the real way. I'm really ready to be in a serious and committed relationship. Dating and meeting guys is fun, but truth be told, I'm getting sick and tired of it. I feel like I'm getting carpal tunnel from swiping. Please help, Ready to Swipe Right for Good.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:07] Huh? Okay. Well look, I don't have the big social circle and I don't have a lot of time, so I decided to download Tinder. I know that I'm a fogy here because I was on Tinder right when it came out when all the profiles were actually fake, even in LA, and they were just the robot ones that they'd put in there. But I would say that making friends on Tinder as a female is probably close to impossible because the guys that are there and not like, yeah, let's totally go to the library. Marni, what do you think?

Marni Kinrys: [00:33:36] Well, I think I always find it interesting when people say I'm ready to be in a serious committed relationship, but then they also coupled that with, but I don't have time to meet people. If you don't have time to meet people, you don't have time to be in a serious relationship because no matter what, that is going to take a certain amount of focused time and attention from you.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:33:54] Amen. Thank you. Thank you for saying that.

Marni Kinrys: [00:33:58.]You're welcome and I don't believe that people don't have time. First of all, like I have two kids. I have a husband. I don't have freaking time. You are single, you have time, and the thing is, is that I do have time. It's about making time, making time for yourself. If you can give yourself one night a week or if you have enough time to swipe on your phone, that means that you have time to go out with people and meet other people.

[00:34:24] I did find it interesting that she was saying she was meeting some great people on there, but it's not long lasting, or she's just not finding the one, and then she questions whether or not it's the app or herself. I don't have enough information here to go on, but I might advise her to be a little bit more specific with her picker, and to do some work figuring out what she wants before she continues swiping on people. I don't have a problem with Tinder at all. I think it's wonderful. It's like you know, a shoe store for single men. What's wrong with going into some place that only has single people available to you? I don't see it as a bad thing. But I think that the way that people select is really off. Either they do it too quickly or they just go on looks and they don't dig deeper into somebody's profile.

[00:35:15] They don't have enough of a foundation set up for themselves, or for the people that they're interacting with before they go onto a date, which leads to more let downs happening for themselves. So I would say that she needs to be a little bit more clear and focused on how she's using Tinder or Hinge or whatever app she or Bumble, whatever app she chooses to. And then she should also take that focus and apply it to the real world as well. So giving herself one night where she's going out in the real world, and interacting with people, not necessarily to a bar or to a club, but maybe to some sort of like adult sports league or some other place that has other single people as well where she can meet and interact with people in real life, and have more things going on for herself other than just work or her finger swiping.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:08] Yeah. I always recommend that people make a list of skills they want to learn. Look for classes and clubs that teach those skills and join those. That way if you don't meet anyone, you learn or started to learn that skill. Like you take Italian cooking, you might meet somebody there. Worst case scenario, you learned Italian cooking, right?

Marni Kinrys: [00:36:24] Yeah. Well where did you meet your wife?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:26] Twitter.

Marni Kinrys: [00:36:27] On Twitter?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:27] Yeah. She's a fan of the show. She followed me on Twitter. I was like, “Oh Hey, I'm bored at a wedding waiting for a wedding to start.” And she's like, “I just installed Twitter. I listened to your show.” And then we started talking. She probably never logged into Twitter again. And yeah. So it was a little bit of a fluke, but I was also reaching out.

Marni Kinrys: [00:36:44] That was so funny.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:45] I was also trolling online, had a wedding. It was just weird timing.

Marni Kinrys: [00:36:48] Oh, that's interesting. That's actually how Michael Holst, Christian met her boyfriend as well. They met on Twitter.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:54] How random. Yeah, not realiable.

Marni Kinrys: [00:36:56] So maybe stop using Tinder and start using Twitter.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:58] There you go.

Marni Kinrys: [00:36:58] I think. Yeah, I don't think Tinder's the issue for this girl life. Well, I don't know enough about her, but I think that there's other things that she might need to perfect and focus on first before deleting the app and blaming not getting good matches.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:16] This episode is sponsored in part by SimpliSafe. I'm excited to tell you about SimpliSafe because I was shopping for a security system and everything was garbage, and it was all like 1998 cordless telephone style, just old stuff. Everything was an upcharge. It really drove me crazy. Contracts and you sort of like, you make your decision, you're never getting out of that thing. And the setup is really easy. Everything sticks on. There's no drilling, there's no wiring, there's no tools. You plug in the base station, you place your sensors on the doors and windows in a few minutes your whole home is protected literally just a few minutes. No contracts at all. It's just common sense. No contracts means they don't get paid unless you're happy, which is how it should be. No gotchas, no hidden stuff, and it's disaster ready.

[00:38:00] They've got six monitoring centers. They all protect your home all the time. That means there's no single point of failure. It's got a battery backup. It's got a cellular thing in it. So you know in the, if you watch too many movies like me, it's like what if they cut the power in the phone lines? It'll still call the police. So a disaster is not taking down your protection. So when the purge comes, you're still good. SimpliSafe now protects over 2 million people. It's sweeping up editor's choice awards from places like CNET, PCMag, and Wirecutter where geeky people like us review security systems. You want to grab this, and I recommend you check it out, especially if you're on the market for security. And if you're not, well, I hope you don't have anything valuable. Go to SimpliSafe.com/jordan.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:38:40] So to get your home protected immediately with no drilling, no contracts, and even sometimes no power. Go to SimpliSafe.com/jordan. That's S-I-M-P-L-I-safe.com/jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:54] This episode is also sponsored by Nickelodeon. Yeah, that Nickelodeon. On your mark. Get set. Go! Double Dare. Remember that? It’s back on Nickelodeon. That's right. The first and best game show for kids returns Monday, June 25^th, at 8. Monday at 8. Double Dare’s legend Marc Summers is teaming up with a new host, Liza Koshy to bring you more mind-boggling trivia, larger than life obstacles, big prizes and more slime than ever before. So if you want to watch something fun with your kids, you know you wanted to be on Double Dare when you were a kid. Gear up for the messiest game show on TV, the all new Double Dare premiers Monday, June 25th at 8, Monday. Monday at 8 on Nickelodeon. I feel cool doing a game show commercial for Double Dare, because Jason remember watching this and being like, how fun would it be to be on this show?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:39:43] I totally do. Back in the days when you know, all I had was Nickelodeon. I'm just like, “Oh I don't like the slime, but you know it, it would have been fun to get slimmed at least once.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:52] Definitely. Knee pads, slime, and Dodge ball. That's what I remember about that.

[00:39:59] All right, next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:39:59] Hi, Jordan and Jason. I'm a 22 year old about to finish my degree in a small town, and we'll most likely be moving to the same much larger and extremely expensive city as my boyfriend when I graduate, we've been dating for four years. Our relationship is solid. I'm madly in love with him, and he's been my best friend for 10 years. My parents and friends love him. He's sensible and treats me well. That still doesn't completely offset the anxiety I have about taking the giant step of sharing a home. There are a lot of warm, fuzzy feelings about it too, and we're both generally in a good place in our separate lives too, and mature for our age. But the stats about cohabitation and divorce as well as our extremely young age in my opinion, to be doing this have me a little nervous. Did you and Jenny lived together before marriage? How about you in any of your previous girlfriends that it didn't work out with? Any tips for cohabitation? Thanks, Moving On Up.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:00] Oh damn. But that's so young. Here's the thing. I did live together with Jenny before getting married, but I did not live with my other girlfriends if we're not getting married and, but I will say that, yeah, 22 is really young living with somebody.

Marni Kinrys: [00:41:15] Yeah, it’s really young.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:41:17] Really young.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:18.0 I mean, I move in with a significant other. I mean people do it in college, but that's a little different because you don't really have that safety network. Have you guys get in a fight or something? You live together. It's usually fine. But yeah, I wouldn't, I don't know. There's all of conflicting evidence. Oh, relationships. It's just too, yeah, it's too young.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:41:38] I moved in with my first girlfriend at 23, and even that was way too young, and we were just figuring it out how to live with somebody. How to figure out like how to deal with the underwear on the floor and the, you know, does she squeeze the toothpaste from the right end of the tube, or all that stuff. That's a lot of stuff that you're going to have to figure out, like really like quickly. And at 22, I mean, it's a good time to start, but you just got to kind of feel that out, I think.

Marni Kinrys: [00:42:06] Well, I found it interesting that you said that I'm moving to the same much larger and extremely expensive city. So I think that she's also saying, I can't afford to get my own place in this city. She's moving in because of financial reasons that they're sharing an apartment, you know, after they graduate. So there isn't extra money there for them to live freely and it's a smart choice for both of them to live together. I would say for anybody who is choosing to move in with somebody else, whether they're 22 or 45, and actually it probably is more challenging at 45 than it is at 22, because you already have your habits in place. That is going to be sound so cliché. But the best thing to do is communicate more. And what I mean by that is I would utilize something that my husband and I do, and it took me a long time to figure out how to do this. And in the very beginning we were not doing this, which caused a lot of fights.

[00:42:57] So what we do now is we have, this is so unsexy but it really, really works. We have weekly meetings with each other. Most often it's on Monday nights after the weekend, and in the morning on Monday, I send out an agenda to him about things that we're going to talk about and things that we're going to cover, and some things are good things and some things are bad things. But at night, we open up a bottle of wine, we sit down calmly, we're both prepared for conversations that might be uncomfortable or awkward. We talk about our plans for the week, what we're going to do on the weekend, and then we talk about sometimes like major issues that pop up for us. Like before we've talked about our sex life, like we were having problems in our sex life and that was on the agenda for one week. And because it wasn't brought up randomly or in passing, and we were both prepared for it, we were, you know, as calm as you can get when you're talking about something so sticky.

[00:43:55] We were able to calmly talk about it and not let emotions run wild. And then we were able to get to a resolution in that evening, which was really helpful. And I'm not saying that that's happening for this girl and her boyfriend, but I would say that that's a huge thing for couples to do and how they can communicate in a really safe space. And if you need to, you can set up guidelines beforehand about what these meetings are for and how the information should be handled, so that both of you can go into it with similar goals and with a similar expectation as to what this time together is for.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:32] It's funny because it's sounds so sterile, but I guess you do what you got to do.

Marni Kinrys: [00:44:37] I know, Christian makes fun of me all the time and she's like, “Oh, you're going to make an agenda for that.” Like it's not sexy, but it's helpful because you know what's not sexy. Having screaming matches with your significant others about socks and underwear and toothpaste. That is not sexy at all. But what is sexy is when you're drinking a glass of wine and you're talking about some things that bother you and the other person looks across at you and smiles and says, “I know that's like so horrible that I do that.” And then they adjust their behavior or try to adjust your behaviors so that they don't do that anymore. That, for me, especially when you're cohabitating, that’s sexy.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:12] I agree. It's about the communication. I just think 22 is super young, so I think no matter what their communication style, no matter what happens, they've got a lot of growing to do. So this could end, I would say just make sure you've got other friends there or that you know where you can go if things take a turn because you don't want to be stuck in the middle of something. You've got to know how to fight well maturely.

Marni Kinrys: [00:45:36] Yeah. I agree with you. I think since you're focusing on the 22 year old thing, I think for the two of them, if they can, I don't know, like you don't want to do it for every single weekend, but like make sure that you make friends outside of each other's friends, like have your own life. You're moving to a new city and it's normal that you're going to depend on each other, but it's really important that you also establish your own worlds in this new city.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:00] All right, next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:46:01] Hi Jordan. I'm an extremely driven female student athlete at a major division one school. I love my life and I realize how fortunate I am to be in the position I'm in. But here's where my problem comes into play. I'm pretty friendly and don't normally have problems making friends. I have a close group of friends as well as many acquaintances at school. Most of my friends are athletes because that's the crowd I'm normally around day in and day out. I don't have a problem with this because I genuinely like the other athletes at my school. I feel as though I'm nice and fun to be around. I even loosened up in the last couple of years and enjoy going out with my friends on the weekends when I don't have practice or games. However, because I'm an athlete, it seems as though all of my male friends only see me as a friend and not anything more than that.

[00:46:49] Although guys enjoy spending time around me. To them, I'm almost just like one of the guys, not a potential love interest. They seem to like hanging out with me casually and working out with me, but no matter how hard I try to flirt, or make it obvious that I'm interested in being more than friends with the guy, they either don't take the hint or are simply not interested in me in a romantic way. This has started to become very frustrating. I know that I don't necessarily help myself out because I'm constantly wearing athletic gear, either coming from or going to practice or weights. However, I do try and wear feminine clothes and makeup when I go out on the weekends. I feel like I've prioritized things the right way in my life thus far. But my love life is the one area that's really lacking. I would love to hear any feedback and advice that you have for me about addressing this situation. Thanks for all that you do. Sincerely, Doing Reps in the Friend Zone.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:44] Nice. So she's a female athlete that has every other area of her life seemingly together, but all the guys see her as one of the guys because she's a workout partner. And I don't think she's unattractive. There was a little photo attached, you know the Gmail photo, and I was like, “Oh, she's cute.” So it's not like she doesn't look scary or something like that, so that's not what's going on here. She’s just--

Marni Kinrys: [00:48:06] Well that was my first thought too. Okay.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:07] Yeah, I know she's just hardcore in the friend zone because she probably goes to the gym with them. And does pull ups and then goes and plays soccer with them and stuff like that. And then she's like, let's go on a date. And they're like, “Uh, yeah I am, but not with you.” Right? So she's stuck.

Marni Kinrys: [00:48:21] Well I'm going to turn this on to you guys because you’re guys. So from your, like from your perspective, how do you think that she can alter this? Because for me, I would say B, you know, for her to do more feminine things around them. But she said that she's already doing those things. She's having conversations with them, she's trying to transition it in some way. She's dressing up, she's wearing makeup. So those things are already in place. So from a male perspective, what's not clicking for these guys to see her as like a sexual option?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:56] Probably spending too much time together doing things they don't think of as being something they would do with a potential girlfriend. I mean, they're playing sports, lifting weights. I mean, I don't think it's the athletic gear guys don't mind if a woman is wearing workout stuff.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:49:10] No, we don't mind that.

Marni Kinrys: [00:49:12] Oh.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:12] Yeah, so that ain't it.

Marni Kinrys: [00:49:14] I wonder if she's better than them at this sport, but I feel like first of all difficulties, but guys can still have some sort of crush on like I don't see that being a limitation, the fact that she plays sports with them and unless she's like kicking their ass and acting really masculine, I don't see where the problem is to be honest.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:37] Yeah. I don't know either. This is one of those questions where it's actually kind of tough because she says the guys don't take the hint, or they're not interested in me in a romantic way. The problem is we don't really know enough. Like what is she doing?

Marni Kinrys: [00:49:52] What are the hints?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:52] Yeah. What are the hints? They're probably not overt enough. I always say that by the time a guy's like, “Hey, I think that girl might be into me.” It's like you've already done a double back flip over the table landed in his lap and then you know, start like grabbed him by the hand, ripped him away from his friends and shoved him up against a wall somewhere and he's like, “Oh yeah. So I think Julie's kind of into me.” She tried to take, you know, it's just, we are so dense that there's so much that needs to be done overtly, and so she's probably being a little bit too subtle. And I wonder--

Jason DeFillippo: [00:50:28] She’s being extremely, extremely, extremely too subtle. I dated a gymnast back in my, like late 20s, and she had the same problem. She said she exactly had that same problem and what she ended up doing was just grabbed me by the neck and kissing me. When she found out she was into me and I was just like, “Oh, okay. That works.” And it's like you have to be overt if you're in the friend zone, but just not creepy about it.

Marni Kinrys: [00:50:56] And Jordan and I both know how challenging it is for guys to make that first move, especially if they're on the younger side. If they're unsure of whether or not somebody's signals are saying I want to be with you. Or if they're just saying, okay, we're great workout partners and we're having fun with each other, but I have no sexual feelings for you whatsoever. So that fear of rejection is way bigger than, you know, the idea of being with somebody that you think is awesome. So I agree with both of you. I think that her hints might be a little bit too subtle for these guys. I wouldn't say for her to like grab them in case, I mean she's totally open to doing that, but I don't think she needs to do that much. But maybe like touching their hands.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:38] Yeah, that's Jason. That's Jason’s level of density. You don’t be that overt.

Marni Kinrys: [00:51:42] Exactly. I think, I think you could say things that are feminine, but say things like, I'm flirting with you right now. Or I'm trying to think of like other feminine statements that aren't too uncomfortable for her to do because they're so overt, but still a more obvious and not as subtle.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:01] Yeah, I just don't do it. While you're spotting him on the bench, it's going to backfire I think. I think though that, that for real, the more friendly you are. And I don't mean friendly as in like amicable. I mean the more you're involved with playing sports, hanging around, doing athletics with guys, the more overt you probably have to be about this because the more you are one of the guys. So if you're a woman on the outside of the circle and you floated a little bit, the guys are like, “Oh yeah,” but if you're inside, you're one of the guys, you've got to turn it up a couple of notches and it might feel a little uncomfortable. And I think that's probably what's going on here. But it's hard to tell because we don't know. You know, if we don't know, maybe she's making fun of the guys trying to be one of the guys and the guys that just demolishes the sexual attention. We don't know.

Marni Kinrys: [00:52:43] Yeah.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:52:43] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:43] All right, next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:52:46] Dear Jordan, I'm a young single man in my mid-20s, and I identify as non-sexual. There was this girl who I'd become good friends with. She was my best friend. We hung out a lot, went to the movies, went on walks, and I was concerned that you might not just see me as a friend, that she might like me in a way I would never be able to satisfy, and so I needed to address the situation.

[00:53:08] So we got some coffee and went out for a walk. Over the course of the walk, I explained that we were really good friends and she's my favorite person to spend time with. I was going to explain, the reason I wanted to talk to her was to tell her that despite being good friends, I was still not attracted to her sexually and I have no desire to be sexually close with her. But after I told her that she was my favorite person to spend time with, and before I told him that I was not sexually attracted to her, she interrupted me, grabbed my shoulder, which caused me to turn and face her in unexpectedly and without invitation, kissed me on the lips. My response to that was to literally throw up on the ground.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:49] Wow, okay. First time I've ever heard that in my life. Literally barfing in reaction to being kissed. Continue.

Marni Kinrys: [00:53:56] That'd be horrible. I cannot imagine if that happened to me. If I had the guts to finally kiss somebody that I liked and they puked.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:54:03] Yeah.

Marni Kinrys: [00:54:03] It's horrible.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:54:05] And not a little either. It took me at least a couple of minutes for me to be able to go on and continue talking. I was hugely embarrassed, and at this point she began weeping.

Marni Kinrys: [00:54:15] Of course, she did.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:54:16] Apparently she was hoping that I was going to ask her to make our relationship official. It was my intention to tell her that after three years of friendship, perhaps we needed to hang out less. That way she could look for a relationship where she would be able to be satisfied sexually. Trust me when I say the next five minutes after I stopped tossing cookies was the most awkward conversation about my personal sexuality I think I've ever had. I told her about my orientation early in our friendship. I thought I had been cleared, that there was no hope of anything coming out of our friendship. She was hoping that something had changed to where I'd become attracted to her. Well, it hadn't. Maybe telling her before we became close friends that I wasn't attracted, wasn't enough. Maybe I should have reminded her of this more often. Maybe I should just be a hermit with no friends at all, so that I can't hurt them like this. Maybe it wasn't at all my fault because I had told her that I'm non-sexual long before this occurred.

[00:55:14] In any case, she hasn't spoken to me or responded to my text since this occurred two weeks ago.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:55:20] Wow.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:55:21] What can I do with future relationships to keep this from happening? And what can I do to repair my friendship with her? Am I just overly worried about losing my best friend? People lose friends all the time because they can't even take a kiss without throwing up, right? What can I do differently than directly telling people my orientation? Is it even possible to be close friends with somebody without the other person developing feelings? Any advice? Thanks for the help, Kisses Make Me Puke.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:55:50] Oh my gosh.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:55:51] Good luck on this one guys.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:55:53] This is so unfortunate because I feel really bad for her, but I definitely feel really bad for him. He seems like such a nice person. He tried to spare her feelings. She didn't really believe him. She's obviously thought like non-sexual. That doesn't even mean anything. He's just saying that because that's not a thing.

Marni Kinrys: [00:56:09] Right. Because most women wouldn't believe that that's true.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:56:11] No, not from a guy especially. And so now he's saying, should I just isolate myself? That's definitely not, you should definitely not do that.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:56:21] No, no, not at all.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:56:22] That's unhealthy.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:56:23] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:56:24] Yeah.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:56:24] You need social interaction, but he needs non-sexual social interaction.

Marni Kinrys: [00:56:28] Well, the thing is is that, I mean it's the same thing in reverse when you know a girl and a guy have a, from print air quotes “a friendship,” and the guy wants more from the girl, and the girl doesn't want anything more than the friendship. And both people are not saying anything. And then they lead down this path where this guy is tortured for three years because he wants something more and he has to watch her be with it, anyway. So—

Jason DeFillippo: [00:56:53] Oh! My 20s, that’s what you’re talking about.

Marni Kinrys: [00:56:54] Yeah, right, exactly. That's from so many people. So I know it's always weird when you hear it in the reverse, but it's exactly the same. And I think what needs to happen more, and we've talked about this a lot on this show, is open communication and checking in with the other person because I'm sure he wasn't completely clueless that she wanted something more. In fact, he was going into this conversation before she can't stand and he puked to tell her that he didn't want anything more. And I hope that that wasn't the first time in three years that he got some sort of sense that she was into them, him and wanted more from him. I'm surprised if this hadn't come up sooner. It's sad because I don't want him to think that he can never have a friendship with anybody because it's just going to lead up to this point.

[00:57:36] So what I can advise him to do is maybe to structure his friendships a little bit differently. If he does sense that the other person is having an attraction towards him or does want something more than he can provide that person. And it sounds like, you know, he was expressing who he was and what his social orientation was, but I think being a little bit more firm about the fact that it's not her, but he's never going to want that from her. And if she's still open to a friendship than he's open to it, but his mind is never going to change, and being more clear and more firm on that I think will be more helpful.

[00:58:17] I don't want him to start cutting himself up completely from friendships out of fear that this situation is going to keep happening over and over again, and not every friendship needs to result in this. You can have a really wonderful close friendship with somebody without one person or both people wanting something more or something sexual.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:58:38] Yeah. I think the communication that he had here was clear and not his fault. I think he just didn't expect her to go down that road. I think it probably just needs to keep being reiterated if he gets an inkling that something's going on because like you said, it's probably not the first time that this has come up and she's clearly really embarrassed. I don't even know if she's mad. She's probably just really embarrassed.

Marni Kinrys: [00:59:00] Oh, 100 percent, but I'm sure you've been in this situation before where you're reading his situation completely different, like, “Okay, fine, yes.” He says he doesn't want this, but he's doing this with me and that with me and we're having this much fun with each other. How could he not want something more than, I'm sure she's talking to his girlfriends or her girlfriends who were saying, “Oh my God, he's totally in love with you.” I know he's just like making up other excuses of planting more seeds in her head. So I mean I like what you said about reiterating on a more regular basis and having check-ins with your friend of saying, you know what? I just want to be clear that we're on the same page still, and be really firm about what it is that you're trying to communicate. Because again, I agree with you, this is not his fault, this just happens sometimes. And the only thing that you can do in a situation like this is be clear. And then sadly it's on the other person if they're not understanding what you're saying.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:59:49] I agree. Yeah. And in the meantime, I do feel this guy's pain. I feel like this is a really bum situation that he's got there, especially just being non-sexual just sounds like a huge bummer. But I could be that. Is that overthinking?

Marni Kinrys: [01:00:01] Is that what his orientation is? That he's non-sexual.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:04] None.

Jason DeFillippo: [01:00:04] Yeah. I mean that's not a bummer at all. It's just how he's wired. So I wouldn't feel bad about that whatsoever. I think it's a bummer that he's so charismatic that people want to be with them, and he doesn't know how to handle it, and that's the really, you know, that's the crux of the issue right now, because he's a nice guy and you know, his friends want to be with him sexually but he can't reciprocate. So I think really that's the issue. But being non-sexual, I don't see that is any kind of problem whatsoever.

Marni Kinrys: [01:00:36] Do you guys know anybody that's non-sexual?

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:39] I'm sure that we do, and they just don't talk about it all the time.

Marni Kinrys: [01:00:41] Yeah. Well, but it's interesting. So like I'm sure that there is a community out there of other non-sexuals. I'm sure that there's many people who identify them. I had never even heard this term before, so I didn't hear you say that part, so I didn't know that that's what is his orientation.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:56] Yeah, I mean he's just non-sexual, but it just seems like you shouldn't have to limit your friendships to other people that are non-sexual.

Marni Kinrys: [01:01:02] No, I completely, I completely agree with you, but I kind of agree with Jason. Like I mean he's probably really awesome and if there are people who are single that he's becoming close friends with, it can get very confusing. And if you do spend so much intimate time with each other, then no matter what, like even in my mind, if I'm with somebody of the opposite sex, like my mind does go there for moments because we're getting along so well and it can trick you a little bit. Even if you may not really be feeling these things or you know fully that other person can't reciprocate. It can be actually even heighten those feelings for the other person. But it can trick you a little bit. So, not that I'm saying you have to limit yourself to non-sexual, but if this is becoming a challenge for you, and you do find yourself completely being hurt, there's nothing wrong with reaching out to others in your community to establish friendships where at least both people have the same understanding and you're on the same page. At least having that base for both of you, I think could be really helpful, so that you know what you're getting into and that person can fully understand you on that level.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:11] All right, last but not least.

Jason DeFillippo: [01:02:13] Hi Jordan. I met this guy and we rushed into things. He has done me wrong in the past by his inconsistency in words and action. And he lied to his ex-girlfriend saying he was single to get her to visit him while we were still dating. But now I broke up with him and he supposedly ended things with his ex before me. Whew. It’s a run-on sentence. But now our post breakup relationship has the lines blurred. We still do relationshipy stuff, but he says he hates the pressure of labels so he doesn't want a relationship with me even though now it's better than when we were in a relationship. He's going to be deployed for eight months. He's a Navy guy, and I wonder if it's an excuse to keep me around as his option. I wonder if I'm devaluing myself by staying with him. And I'm unsure of staying around because it's fun to be with him will be worth the hurt when he will inevitably be deployed. Thanks for all you've done, Ms. Naivete.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:03:13] So whenever I hear people say we do relationship stuff, I kind of assume in this context anyway that that means they're still doing it. I don't think that means they're going and watching movies and stuff. Maybe it does, but I have a feeling that they're still hooking up.

Marni Kinrys: [01:03:29] Oh that's funny because I actually saw it as the opposite.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:11] Oh really? That we do relationshipy stuff, like we'll hang out on the weekends, or we'll hang out with his friends. Like that's how I viewed it.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:03:38] That’s funny. I had a totally read the opposite. Well I mean, I don't mean that they don't hang out. I just mean they're probably still hooking up.

Marni Kinrys: [01:03:44] Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:03:45] It’s because yeah, exactly.

Marni Kinrys: [01:03:47] That’s what it saying.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:03:48] That's probably still hooking up. So she says he's going to be deployed for eight months. I wonder if it's an excuse to keep me around as his option? Probably. Why doesn't he want the pressure of a labels? What pressure of a label? You're either together, you're not. There's not a whole lot of pressure involved that the label. Especially, well-

Marni Kinrys: [01:04:03] Especially, if you only have eight more months, then you can end that label if you want.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:04:08] He’s going to be deployed for eight months. He's not even going to be around, so why not say yeah, I got girlfriend back home.

Marni Kinrys: [01:04:11] Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:04:13] I mean that's just seems, it seems like he's keeping her hanging around because he knows she will. That's what I'm hearing.

Marni Kinrys: [01:04:20] That's what I'm hearing too. So that's completely up to her. I don't think she's devaluing herself if she's actually enjoying what's going on and she's having fun. But if she's thinking that it's going to turn into something more, the more that she hangs out with him, most likely that's not going to happen. He's pretty set on the fact that this is not going to be a relationship and he doesn't want a relationship and he's leaving very soon, so he isn't even in that mindset. It doesn't seem like he's in that mindset of getting into a relationship just before he goes away. So I would say for Ms. Naivete, if you're enjoying it and having fun and you could understand that this is not going to be anything else, and when he does leave, it's going to be over, and he's not going to be sending you love letters from wherever he is. Then continue doing it. Have a blast for the next little bit. Enjoy things, test things out with him, try new things in the bedroom and then take that information to the next person who can give you more attention and possibly that relationship status that you're looking for.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:05:16] Yeah. Now I think about it. Maybe he's actually saying, “Look, I'm going to be deployed. I don't want a girlfriend, but if you want to hang around.” So he's not necessarily keeping our around while he's deployed. It's just beforehand. So yeah, your feelings are going to get hurt when he gets to the point. That's fine. You're allowed to say goodbye to people that you like and then miss them. But yeah, I would not expect him, like you said, to be sending you love letters or an engagement ring from the Gulf of Aden or wherever he gets stationed.

Marni Kinrys: [01:05:41] Right, exactly. Yeah, I'm on the same page.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:05:44] All right. Cool. Recommendation of the week. I've been traveling, Jason, we've exhausted yours, because you've been governed for me. Marni, would you recommend any documentaries you've seen recently?

Marni Kinrys: [01:05:54] Yeah. Well actually, I actually have a few but I just watched the Lady Gaga documentary the other day, and not that I have not been a fan of hers because I like her music but I somewhat, I followed her before. I found it really interesting. I was expecting a whole story about where she came from and her childhood and all of that stuff. But it was not focused on that at all. It was really focusing on her, I guess I'll call it a rebirth, or going back to her real self.

Jason DeFillippo: [01:06:20] Coming out from the meat suit.

Marni Kinrys: [01:06:21] Kind of. Yeah. Like eliminating all the extreme things that she'd done in the past, and she was really afraid to show her raw self even though she was showing like a raw—

Jordan Harbinger: [01:06:31] raw meat.

Marni Kinrys: [01:06:31] Somebody else before. Yeah, but it was really cool. You got to see this really real side of her, and I was talking about it with my husband, like we were both saying she's not beautiful, but you can't take your eyes off of her. Like she's very interesting. Her body's interesting and the way that she like moves herself and talks. It was enjoyable to watch, and I got a good insight into her and her creative to process that was really interesting. So I really enjoyed it.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:07:05] Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week. Don't forget, you can email us friday@jordanharbinger.com to get your questions answered on the air. We're happy to keep you anonymous of course. And if you can keep them short with just enough detail for us to answer the question, that's good. Because these multi pagers, I flagged them and then I'm never going back to them because it takes us 20 minutes to read. It's not going to happen.

[01:07:27] A link to the show notes for this episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. We've got our Alexa Skill. If you have an Amazon Echo, go to jordanharbinger.com/alexa, it will install it for you. Login to Amazon. It'll give you a little daily briefing each morning. It'll add a clip from the show of an episode you've already heard or a preview of an episode that you haven't and we're going to be updating those with some of our little practicals and exercises as that user base develops. That's jordanharbinger.com/alexa.

[01:07:54] Quick shout outs to did Jimmy and Sam, this is a Navy father and son who listened to Feedback Friday with each other and help them communicate and bro out. So Jimmy and Sam, thanks for listening to the show and using it to further your relationship. That's pretty cool. I'm on Instagram and Twitter @jordanharbinger. It's a great way to engage with the show. Jason, tell him where to find you.

Jason DeFillippo: [01:08:12] I’m on Instagram @JPD, on Twitter as JPDEF. And you can always check out my other podcasts, Grumpy Old Geeks. All the links for all of these will be found @jpd.me. Marni, where can everybody find you?

Marni Kinrys: [01:08:24] They can listen to the Ask Women Podcast where we help men understand women and teach them how to attract date, seduce and get and keep women. Or they can go to my website, winggirlmethod.com, where I teach them the same stuff, but in greater detail.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:08:41] All that will be linked up in the show notes as well. Keep sending in those questions to friday@jordanharbinger.com. Share the show with those you love and even those you don't. We've got a lot more like this in the pipeline. We're excited to bring it to you. And in the meantime do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time.