1073: Fluoride | Skeptical Sunday

1073: Fluoride | Skeptical Sunday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I am here with Skeptical Sunday co-host, writer, and researcher Jessica Wynn. On the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

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That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit Jordan harbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today, fluoride, the lips smack and curiosity in our water supply. It's a fascinating mineral that's a hero for our teeth, but a puzzle for a lot of the general public.

We associate it with dental health, but in some mouths, the fluoride added to our water leaves a bad taste. So what is fluoride? Why is it in our water? Will this lead to mind control via our faucets, researcher and writer? Jessica Wynn joins me to wash away the confusion around fluoride.

[00:01:35] Jessica Wynn: Right? Hey Jordan, thanks for having me back on.

Skeptical Sunday.

[00:01:38] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, welcome back. Alright, let's dive in. So first of all, what is fluoride exactly? I know I said it was a mineral, but that's kind of where my knowledge begins and ends.

[00:01:46] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Well, fluoride is a mineral and it occurs naturally in water, soil, air. It's found in a lot of our food. We just absorb it all the time.

[00:01:56] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, but it's also something that is added to drinking water on purpose, right?

[00:02:01] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, for sure. It can be. I mean, fluoride strengthens tooth enamel making our teeth more resistant to acid, and it stops cavities from forming. So fluoride can even help to rebuild our tooth surface and water fluoridation that is adding it to the public water supply.

Provides frequent and consistent contact with low levels of fluoride, and this prevents tooth decay. It's, it's amazing.

[00:02:28] Jordan Harbinger: So you say it occurs naturally, but where does it actually come from?

[00:02:32] Jessica Wynn: Well, uh, fluoride is the 13th most abundant element in the earth's crust. So when water moves through spaces between rocks, fluoride just, it dissolves naturally into the water.

The amount varies depending on where in the world your water comes from. So natural fluoride levels range from barely perceptible to over 10 parts per million.

[00:02:57] Jordan Harbinger: So that doesn't sound like much, but what do I know? 10 parts per million. Is that a lot? How do they even measure something that small? It's actually quite impressive.

[00:03:05] Jessica Wynn: I know it's hard to to conceptualize, but it is not a lot. 10 parts per million is the same as 0.009 milligrams per liter. If you wanna think about it in a more solid way, one PP m is comparable to one inch in 16 miles. So yeah, not a lot, but fluoride, it's everywhere. It's in all our water sources. It's in rivers, lakes, surface water, but it's really, really trace amounts.

[00:03:37] Jordan Harbinger: If it's in all natural water, then why do we also then add it to our water supply? I don't understand.

[00:03:43] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Well it's, it's a balance. So we add it to reduce cavities among the population. That's it. I mean, fluoridation, it's not actually required in any community in America. And the Safe Drinking Water Act prohibits the EPA from mandating the addition of any substances to our drinking water.

But every town just votes on it, and by the time that fluoride reaches humans, it's absorbed into the blood through the digestive tract, and then it collects in areas with high calcium content like our bones and teeth, it's estimated to reduce tooth decay in in children by 40 to 70%.

[00:04:24] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Okay. That's great.

But how does it actually work?

[00:04:28] Jessica Wynn: Well, fluoride works in three different ways. It reduces the ability of plaque bacteria to produce acid. It strengthens tooth enamel and it's absorbed into the crystalline structure of tooth enamel, making it harder for acids to attack our teeth. I mean, fluoride is objectively effective in lowering cavity rates in children, and there's a lot of evidence.

It does the same for adults, but there's just not as many studies on adults. So it's unclear how much it actually helps like our teeth, regardless, no matter what our age, our teeth are always in either a state of. Demineralization or remineralization and cavities occur when bacteria feed on sugars in your mouth, creating acids that erode your teeth by dissolving your tooth mineral.

That's demineralization. And then remineralization, that's what fills in our small cavities and involves the construction of crystals from minerals.

[00:05:30] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Crystals that actually do something, I gotta notify all the listeners who are furious about our skeptical Sunday on crystal healing. They're, they'll be happy to hear that.

[00:05:39] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, they'll be, they'll be happy. These crystals are actually legit and they stack together like Legos and they just make our teeth strong. So this happens naturally, uh, just in regular mineralization and it results in. Inorganic mineral substance called hydroxy appetite and hydroxy appetite. It creates these super physiologically strong bonds that wouldn't otherwise naturally occur in nature.

So even though fluoride and hydroxy appetite have different chemical bonds, they're producing this similar results.

[00:06:14] Jordan Harbinger: And all of this from just that little bit of fluoride that's in our drinking water.

[00:06:18] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Incredible. Right? I mean, about 80% of the fluoride consumed is absorbed in our gastrointestinal tract, and then about half of that is stored in our bones and teeth.

Children, they store more like 80% because they're still developing. And then the rest of it, it just shows up in like our plasma and saliva and urine. It's, it's everywhere. There's over. 214 million Americans that live in communities which supply fluoridated water. So it's like 75% of the population.

[00:06:53] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, it's not, so not everybody's getting fluoride in their water even in the United States?

[00:06:58] Jessica Wynn: No. No, because it's not mandated. So it just, most people are voting for it. But the US Public Health Service, they have fluoride recommendations for different variables. Like places without fluoridated water, they recommend should use some kind of fluoride supplement and places people are expected to drink more water, like warmer climates have less added to their water.

In 1986, the EPA established the maximum allowance, which is four milligrams per liter in public water supply to prevent over exposure while still preventing these cavities.

[00:07:36] Jordan Harbinger: But why are we just adding this one mineral? It sort of seems reasonable to me for people to be skeptical here.

[00:07:42] Jessica Wynn: Sure. I mean, I get that, but people are all over the place with what they don't like about fluoride, and I think a lot of it is misinformation and ignorance to what fluoride is and does remember the movie Dr.

Strange Love?

[00:07:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, of course. It's a classic, perhaps the most disturbing movie about the illusion of our control. Did that influence how people feel about fluoride?

[00:08:05] Clip: Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face?

[00:08:15] Jessica Wynn: I mean, that's an extreme example, but in that movie, general Ripper claimed that not only that, but that water fluoridation was destroying our precious bodily fluids, which is a reference to this conspiracy that water fluoridation is a plot to weaken America and make it susceptible to a communist takeover.

I have come across occasional communist conspiracies about fluoride that still exist, but they're pretty fringe.

[00:08:46] Jordan Harbinger: That movie was in black and white. So this is a long standing conspiracy theory, man, that's this thing really has legs and many conspiracies, of course, are indeed fringe. But I also, I gotta admit, I understand why people get weirded out by having something added to their water supply.

[00:09:03] Jessica Wynn: Uh, sure. Uh, I mean, right now there's a major lawsuit in California to get fluoride completely removed from the water that's still pending. The case was brought by a group who claim any level of fluoride is harmful, but it, at the same time, there's a major lawsuit in Buffalo, New York where the city is being sued for damaging their children's dental health by not putting enough fluoride in the water.

So it's just this wide divergence about how safe people feel with having fluoride in drinking water. And it's confusing because if fluoride exceeds a certain threshold, it is actually poisonous, and that sounds really scary. But, you know, we control fluoridation levels, so they're at the healthiest amount to decrease tooth decay without making us sick.

For obvious reasons. There are strict rules about our water supply.

[00:09:57] Jordan Harbinger: When did we start doing this? It's naturally in some food and water in trace amounts and then in what? The sixties or whatever. We just started like dumping it into the water supply. What am I missing?

[00:10:08] Jessica Wynn: It wasn't quite that drastic. It was more of a slow ride.

But so, so fluoride was discovered in 1901 and it took decades to prove to the world that it's a scientific revolution in preventative care and minimizing tooth decay.

[00:10:25] Jordan Harbinger: But people still do get cavities and have dental issues, right? I mean, like, look, I've had, unfortunately, I've had plenty of holes in my teeth and I grew up drinking fluoridated water in Michigan.

[00:10:36] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, of course it's a public health wary. But Jordan, your smile is beautiful. It like tooth decay used to be an out of control problem. I mean, since no one was. Keeping a great track of cavity rates. It's hard to say exactly. Some studies say that before fluoride was understood, tooth decay and cavities were 50 to 70% higher.

Others say around 20 to 40%. Either way, it was a way more common thing for people to be missing a lot of teeth and often be toothless by old age. But yeah, thanks to fluoride, it's way more manageable.

[00:11:17] Jordan Harbinger: I do remember reading in in history books about how people had dentures by age, I don't know, 33 or whatever it was, like often, by the way, made out of the teeth of enslaved people, which is insanely horrifying.

I'd think I'd probably rather be toothless actually.

[00:11:34] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I mean, that's a whole different thing. Let's, let's keep it light. Let's focus on the fluoride here.

[00:11:41] Jordan Harbinger: All right. Alright, so I take Advil, I take vitamin C sometimes, but I don't want that stuff flowing through the water supply. So how did the world just go?

Alright. You know, this needs to go in everybody's water.

[00:11:51] Jessica Wynn: Okay. First let's just point out that fluoridation is such a minor part of Water's journey. There is way more concern about getting things out of our water supply, how we got to fluoride as an additive. It's actually a pretty good detective story.

So in 1901. Frederick McKay. He graduated from UPenn Dental School on the East coast in Philly, and he headed to Colorado Springs to open up a practice, and when he got there, his mind was blown because his new community was. Just filled with people who had gross, gnarly brown stains on their teeth. He actually wrote that it looked like chocolate candies were stuck on everyone's teeth.

[00:12:41] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, wow. That's gross. But also somehow delicious.

[00:12:45] Jessica Wynn: Oh God, no. I mean, he never saw anything like it that in any academic books or new dental literature. And the residents there gave him two theories. They thought it was either from drinking cheap milk or eating too much pork. I don't, I dunno why

[00:13:02] Jordan Harbinger: Sounds plausible.

[00:13:03] Jessica Wynn: Sounds sciency. I mean, whenever it was, everyone had it, so they just normalized it and they called it Colorado Brown Stain.

[00:13:13] Jordan Harbinger: That's what I call my kids diapers. What a coincidence.

[00:13:15] Jessica Wynn: Oh, gross. But this guy McKay, he spent the next several years researching the bizarre condition. And presented all his findings at the Colorado Dental Association Convention.

There was this researcher there at the convention who was pretty well known and did not believe McKay, so he went to Colorado Springs and ended up writing, quote, one does not have to search for Colorado. Brown. Stain for it is continually forcing itself on the attention of the stranger by its persistent prominence.

[00:13:51] Jordan Harbinger: How poetic? My gosh.

[00:13:54] Jessica Wynn: This led to discovering like other areas of the country that were suffering from Colorado Brown Stain.

[00:14:01] Jordan Harbinger: Of all the things to be known for Colorado. No wonder they were so eager to get weed on the map. Like, aren't you the brown stain guys? No, no, no, no. We're the weed guys now. We are the weed guys now, please.

[00:14:14] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, like anything else, this was before the weed thing, but by 1915, a hundred

[00:14:19] Jordan Harbinger: years or so, yeah.

[00:14:21] Jessica Wynn: McKay, his research showed that the stained enamel was rooted in childhood and because the kids' teeth aren't calcified, so if you're an adult, it's not going to happen to your teeth because our teeth are calcified.

So people like McKay who were new to town, they were not at risk. And the weird thing is that Colorado brown stained teeth. We're surprisingly and just inexplicably resistant to tooth decay.

[00:14:52] Jordan Harbinger: What? So you're telling me those ugly brown stain teeth weren't decaying. So they were ugly, but very resilient, which actually sounds like a good metaphor for the people of Colorado.

No, I'm kidding. Um, I'm from Detroit. I've got no room to talk whatsoever.

[00:15:07] Jessica Wynn: Yep. I'm from Philly. I can't say anything, but

[00:15:09] Jordan Harbinger: yeah,

[00:15:10] Jessica Wynn: McKay dug. Yeah. McKay dug deeper and deeper into this theory that there was an ingredient in Colorado Springs water that was causing this. But it was just a hunch,

[00:15:24] Jordan Harbinger: just a hunch, Hey, here we go.

Yeah, I see where this is going. I think, right?

[00:15:27] Jessica Wynn: Like that's what science is. Right. Guess and prove. So in 1923, his hunch restored healthy unstained teeth in the children of Oakley, Idaho, where a new pipeline had been built for the community. Children started to have these brown stains on their teeth. And then when McKay convinced them to abandon the new water source, within just a couple years, children were back to having healthy unstained teeth.

[00:15:55] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so the hunt, he was getting warmer apparently.

[00:15:58] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, exactly. And then the United States Public Health Service was paying attention, and they took McKay's research and sprinted to investigate this Colorado brown stain that was appearing in Boite, Arkansas. And this is interesting because Boite was owned by the Aluminum Company of America or Alcoa.

It's important because a toxic byproduct of aluminum manufacturing is fluoride. So Alcoa denied contaminating the water supply for years, but test after test found, of course, lots of fluoride in the water around their facility. So in 1931,

[00:16:41] Jordan Harbinger: wow. Not until 1931. So they managed to stall for like a decade.

That's insane.

[00:16:46] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Yeah. Capitalism was, was strong then too. But, um, McKay persevered and he took water samples from all these towns where the brown stain was experienced. His 30 year quest finally just confirmed that high levels waterborne fluoride was in all the samples and was causing this staining of tooth.

Phenomenal.

[00:17:09] Jordan Harbinger: So if the high levels of fluoride caused the Colorado Brown stain, why am I and everyone else listening pretty much making damn sure that this fluoride's in my toothpaste and in my water? I mean, why do we want that?

[00:17:22] Jessica Wynn: Well, one mystery often ripples into others, right? So when the research took off and fluoride studies were finally being done by the NIH, the Dental Hygiene Unit, their first task starting in 1931 was to just to develop an accurate way to measure fluoride and drinking water.

That took a couple years, and then when they had the right tools, a critical discovery found levels of up to a. One part per million in drinking water did not cause brown stain.

[00:17:55] Jordan Harbinger: I see. But it, it did prove that fluoride prevents cavities or are we not there yet?

[00:18:00] Jessica Wynn: Well, yeah, I mean, researchers understood too much.

Fluoride caused the stains, but the teeth were resistant to decay. So they wondered whether adding fluoride to drinking water at the exact right safe, balanced amount would help fight tooth decay. But this hypothesis would need to be tested. So that was 1931, or, you know, early thirties. But it, it wasn't until 1944.

That the City Commission of Grand Rapids, Michigan voted to add fluoride to its public water supply. In 1945, grand Rapids became the first community in the world to floate its drinking water.

[00:18:42] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. So it is a Michigan thing. US Michiganders. Well, we do have beautiful smiles and our water does taste like a swimming pool half the time.

I don't know if that's related.

[00:18:50] Jessica Wynn: Oh, gross. When the National Institute of Dental Research was started in 1948, they took the reins of all this fluoride research, um, and launched a 15 year research project to monitor the rate of tooth decay among Grand Rapids. Almost 30,000 school children. So dentists, yeah.

Dentists went in and they examined the kids once a year to document the effects of fluoridation. And after 11 years into the study, cavity rates in children had dropped over 60%.

[00:19:26] Jordan Harbinger: Considering the thousands of participants in this study that amounts to a massive scientific breakthrough, does it not? I mean, those are great results.

[00:19:34] Jessica Wynn: I know. Absolutely. I mean, fluoride promise to revolutionize dental care, making tooth decay for the first time in history, a preventable disease. So yeah, it was. It was great. Water fluoridation flowed into other towns and cities and transformed dentistry into a prevention oriented profession. Today, it continues to be dental science's, main weapon in the battle against tooth decay.

[00:20:01] Jordan Harbinger: So if there's fluoride in the water, why is it also in my toothpaste and I get it at the dentist in those foam trays, et cetera, et cetera. I feel like there's all kinds, it's just everywhere.

[00:20:11] Jessica Wynn: Right, and, and it's true. I mean, according to the CDC, the amount of fluoride and toothpaste doesn't provide the level of protection needed to fight tooth decay alone.

Together. Fluoridated water and toothpaste work to provide maximum protection.

[00:20:27] Jordan Harbinger: I suppose that's a relief, but toothpaste does have warnings on the labels, especially for kids. I've noticed now, you know, that's once you have kids, you're like, I better read this. Right? And it's like, warning, don't let kids swallow it or something.

So there must be some risk. It's like they don't want, if any more than a pea size bit is swallowed, call poison control. I'm like, this doesn't sound safe to me.

[00:20:47] Jessica Wynn: Warning kids are stupid.

[00:20:48] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. They try to eat it and then they get sick.

[00:20:51] Jessica Wynn: I mean, there is a little bit of risk, but those warnings are found on anything that isn't meant for consumption.

So toys have the same warning pretty much, but toothpaste isn't required to have a nutrition label listing, you know, calories and things because it's not food. So it has that warning label because of the active ingredient is this non-food called fluoride. And if you overconsume it, it can make you sick.

Now, the warnings, they lean towards kids because they're most likely to snack on yummy toothpaste. Right. So. There's a maximum fluoride content that is mandated in our toothpaste, and the American Dental Association puts their seal of acceptance on any toothpaste with fluoride so consumers can know it meets the a DA standards for, for safety.

[00:21:44] Jordan Harbinger: Is this toothbrush approved by the American Dental Association?

[00:21:49] Jessica Wynn: We need to know that. We need to know. So yes, it's

[00:21:51] Jordan Harbinger: important Kevin. Thanks Kevin McAllister

[00:21:56] Jessica Wynn: To earn the, the seal from the a DA, the toothpaste has to contain fluoride, have no artificial sugar, and it's reevaluated every three years to maintain the approval.

I don't know about toothbrushes, so. We'll, we'll look that up. But they don't, they, they don't change a lot, so I don't know. Yeah, I don't think they have fluoride in the bristles, but unfortunately there's actually chemicals and synthetic ingredients allowed in toothpaste. But that's a separate concern. So also another side note is.

You know, while we're talking about the packaging, I came across a conspiracy a bunch of times in my research that claims the different colors on the bottom of a tube of toothpaste mean something about the chemicals inside. And I just wanna be a hundred percent clear for anyone that might believe that those colors mean something.

They are solely for the machines that seal the seams of the tubes.

[00:22:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And even if they did mean something, it's probably not, ha, we're putting poison in this and nobody knows that's what this little symbol means. Like it doesn't make any sense.

[00:23:01] Jessica Wynn: Right. The evil genius signature.

[00:23:03] Jordan Harbinger: Right. One conspiracy I know to be true is that I, along with the fine products and services that support this show are conspiring to give you a great deal on the pro products and services that support the show.

I definitely didn't think this went out. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Transcend. Okay? I love this company. I've been referring a ton of you to this company. This company has changed my life. I know you're like, well, they paid you to say that. Actually, I was working with them for over a year before they became a sponsor.

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Now, back to skeptical Sunday. That's, that's the funniest thing about conspiracies. It's always like this big, massive plot that involves tons of resources and connecting things, and it's like, but part of the requirements is they have to put this one dumb thing in plain sight for everyone to see. It's just somehow necessary.

So dumb. Alright. But okay. Fluoride does have some negative effects at higher doses, right? It can make you sick. Mm-Hmm. Right. Some besides the old brown stain is what I'm talking about. I don't, for me, I know how many drinks I can have. I'd like to know how many brushes I can withstand or whatever. When does it get to a harmful level?

Okay.

[00:27:22] Jessica Wynn: So yes, consuming large amounts of fluoride from dietary supplements or dental products can make you sick. And in extraordinarily rare cases you could die.

[00:27:35] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, sounds serious. Okay. Yeah. But is this like death by force feeding toothpaste or mouthwash? I, how much I, I guess that's a lot. Probably before you croak.

[00:27:45] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. I don't mean to take it lightly, but it's just that rare, like you would have to be taking shots of mouthwash for days and eating toothpaste pies, you know? But fluoride in high doses is a poison, and as we know with, with anything, the dose makes the poison. So if you ate a spoonful of that fluoride gel they use at the dentist, you would definitely barf.

[00:28:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I can imagine. I never liked that stuff, nor that. What is with the, they're like it's bubble gum flavor, and then they put it in your mouth and it's like a thousand pieces of bubble gum at the same time. Flavor wise. It's so gross.

[00:28:24] Jessica Wynn: I kind of like it. I like going, what?

[00:28:29] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh, I can't stand it.

[00:28:32] Jessica Wynn: I'd go, what?

Every other day if I could.

[00:28:34] Jordan Harbinger: You're like Gabriel, my producer Gabriel, for feedback Friday. His favorite thing is getting his teeth cleaned at the dentist. It's like, oh, it feels

[00:28:40] Jessica Wynn: so good when you lick your teeth afterwards

[00:28:42] Jordan Harbinger: that I will give you that. It does. I'm actually going right after this, which is a total coincidence and kind of it.

Nice. Yeah, so I'm looking forward to that in the moment I'm like, oh, this is so boring. And also like you, you know, I side note, my dental hygienist is the most interesting man in the world and so he makes it quite fun. But if I don't have him, I'm like, oh, I hate this. I should just not have teeth. I. He listens to the show.

So I have to say something nice to Charles, but I would, anyways, shout out to Charles, the dental hygienist, the man. All right, so continuing right along. I don't know how many people are super in super friendly with their hygienist, but you should, you should be. You should. You're, you're missing it. No, no. I

[00:29:19] Jessica Wynn: love mine too.

I love mine too. So what people are worried about, which goes beyond the standing of the teeth, is, is the major hazard of fluoridation, which is called dental fluorosis, which also known as Colorado Brown stain. So in the United States, the amount of fluoride that's added to drinking water is at a level that comes with just such a low likelihood of fluorosis and s.

Severe fluorosis occurs in less than 1% of the entire world population, and its highest occurrence is in children. Which makes sense because the theory is, like we said. They're probably going to eat more toothpaste than adults and drink more mouthwash.

[00:30:03] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so it's dangerous, but can it do more harm than just stain our teeth?

I think most people's concerns are bigger than that. Like, okay, you threw up whatever. I think people are not so much worried about that is more severe stuff like cancer or whatever.

[00:30:17] Jessica Wynn: I mean, severe fluorosis can lead to pitting in tooth enamel, which is just more damage to your teeth, but that's also extremely rare.

You know, the levels of fluoride are closely monitored. In fact, for the first time in over 50 years in, in 2015, the United States lowered its recommended levels of fluoride and drinking water because there's just so much on the shelves at the grocery stores and in our food. And a lot of people freaked out about that because they were changing.

The fluoride levels, but it shouldn't alarm people. It should comfort people to know our fluoride levels are paid close attention to and adjusted, and it should make sense when looking at those shelves of products with fluoride that we don't need as much in our water.

[00:31:06] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I did not realize that. That is reassuring.

I suppose somebody didn't set it up in 1905 and be like, this is fine.

[00:31:12] Jessica Wynn: Right, right, right. And if you don't want fluoride in your toothpaste, you do have options. You know, there's Toms, there's Armand Hammer, there's bites. They all have fluoride free options and, and they're readily available

[00:31:25] Jordan Harbinger: bites. Never heard of that one.

[00:31:27] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. They're getting more and more popular. It's all about the, the packaging. They're these little tablets you chew on and they foam in your mouth and so it, it, they just come in a glass bottle. So it's eco-friendly packaging, no plastic tubes, but you can get those as well, with or without fluoride.

[00:31:43] Jordan Harbinger: We had those, they were called knobs.

No. Okay. Which is a funny name's. Okay. Yeah. Um, so pop a knob in your mouth means something different overseas. So I get that it's in toothpaste and I get that it's in the water. But you say we're absorbing it all the time. What if, hypothetically I rarely brush my teeth, mostly forego tap water. I wouldn't be the first dude to ignore dental hygiene and survive entirely on, I don't know, mountain Dew for example.

Oh

[00:32:11] Jessica Wynn: God. That makes my teeth hurt. Think about but

[00:32:14] Jordan Harbinger: yeah. Fuzzy teeth.

[00:32:15] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Ooh, green fuzzy teeth people, um, they associate fluoride with dental care and it's in the water, but we need to understand it's found in our food. I mean, depending on the water source of Mountain Dew, there could be fluoride in there.

Because it's a mineral. It can be present in our soil and water that we use for our crops. So it's thought that the food with the highest content seems to be brewed tea. I'm not sure why that is. But even if you only use distilled water for cooking and drinking, you'll still absorb fluoride from food.

[00:32:50] Jordan Harbinger: Distilled water doesn't have fluoride then.

[00:32:53] Jessica Wynn: No, that's impossible. The, the distillation process effectively removes fluoride and, and a bunch of other contaminants.

[00:33:01] Jordan Harbinger: So you can filter out the fluoride.

[00:33:03] Jessica Wynn: I mean, you can distill it out, filtering it, like if you're thinking of a Brita or something, I, I don't think that's possible.

I couldn't find. Any filter or cartridge that can successfully remove fluoride a hundred percent. And those activated carbon filters, they're ineffective at removing fluoride. And any product you see that makes those claims should be verified. But if people have some extra money, you could install something to filter out fluoride at home.

[00:33:34] Jordan Harbinger: We have a reverse osmosis filter, so maybe my teeth are actually gonna fall out due to lack of fluoride at some point.

[00:33:41] Jessica Wynn: You know, reverse osmosis water filtration. It is the best, but it can be pricey. The other option is steam distillation. And it's understandable that people want those things because they're, they're freaked out and they think something is being forced into their body.

So if people are concerned, it's a good option. You can look up how much fluoride's in your tap water, decide what you wanna invest, and then filter it out. But here's the thing. The money you're spending filtering out fluoride will be spent at the dentist filling cavities.

[00:34:18] Jordan Harbinger: Crap. Okay. But people have those to filter out more than fluoride.

Like we have it because of heavy metals and whatever else. I don't even know. They're just getting fluoride from toothpaste and seem to be fine. I mean that's, well that was kind of my plan.

[00:34:32] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Well, I don't know. Have you seen a rise in your own cavity rate since you, I don't know.

[00:34:37] Jordan Harbinger: Maybe. Got that. Maybe not.

Yeah.

[00:34:38] Jessica Wynn: Ask your dentist today. I should. Maybe

[00:34:40] Jordan Harbinger: they're, maybe they're paying attention to that. I'm not.

[00:34:43] Jessica Wynn: There was a study in 2018 that showed a surprising cause of cavities is reverse osmosis. Oh, great. That's,

[00:34:52] Jordan Harbinger: that's great.

[00:34:53] Jessica Wynn: It was just one study. But these researchers recognize that, of course, these filtration systems are used to remove chlorine, another contaminants, and improve the taste and smell of water.

So they just recommend adding the minerals back into your filtered water, which, you know, you can get mineral drops or. There's some specific filter that I don't really quite understand that'll put good fluoride back in. So if you filter out the bad stuff and you don't make up for the good fluoride somewhere in your lifestyle, you're likely to get more cavities.

[00:35:27] Jordan Harbinger: So fluoridated water is just less painful. And by the way, a lot cheaper because my reverse osmosis filter thing was not cheap. I remember really, you know, gritting my teeth and cutting the check for that thing.

[00:35:39] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, no, no pun intended. There. For every dollar spent on water fluoridation, it saves the consumer about $38.

In healthcare, according to the CDC, and without fluoridated water, your dentist bills will be a lot higher because you'll have more dental problems. And then as we know, when your teeth have problems, that affects a lot of your organs, it can affect your heart, your kidney, it just your overall health.

[00:36:08] Jordan Harbinger: So it saves us money on dental bills.

But isn't it extremely expensive for communities to fluoridate water?

[00:36:14] Jessica Wynn: Uh, no. Adding fluoride to the water is one of the less expensive ways to prevent tooth decay. I don't have all the economics behind that. Oh, you don't have a

[00:36:25] Jordan Harbinger: price list. You could just open up an aluminum manufacturing plant somewhere upstream, and you should it.

It's free. Then

[00:36:33] Jessica Wynn: we should get into the fluoridation business. It's definitely cheaper than treating tooth decay though. And in 2015, the Cochrane Review, which is like the gold standard for high quality, trusted science research, they released data from 20 observational studies that spanned from the 1950s to the nineties, and it showed water fluoridation reduces the risk of decay in fillings, as well as a premature loss of baby teeth by significant amounts.

And the authors concluded that water fluoridation is effective for reducing cavity rates in both primary and permanent teeth in children. I mean, there's just savings there, especially if you have kids.

[00:37:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and especially if you're the tooth fairy. Does it affect pregnancy or infants differently? I've always kind of worried about that stuff now that I've got kids myself.

[00:37:25] Jessica Wynn: I think there needs to be more studies on that because I could only find one study involving pregnant women that found fluoride transfers from the woman to the fetus. And this study gave 800 mothers a milligram a day of fluoride during the last six months of pregnancy. Then they examined the children when they were three years old and just came up with no significant difference in the children's cavity rates.

So the Cochrane review concluded that there's no evidence that shows fluoride supplementation in pregnant women prevents dental cavities in their offspring or, or causes any harm.

[00:38:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm less worried about whether a newborn has bright white chompers than I am about fluoride having some other effect on the baby.

[00:38:12] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, of course. I mean, I get that. But there's several studies that show even in communities with fluoridated water, fluoride in breast milk is very rarely detected. So it's just non-existent and it's hard to measure. So. Pregnant women don't seem to absorb it the same way, so they think if you're worried about it with your baby, the thing to look at is actually just baby formula.

The fluoride levels an infant formula, whether they're milk or soy based, they'll vary depending on, of course, the water source you use to make the formula itself.

[00:38:48] Jordan Harbinger: I see. We keep mentioning kids, but does it work as a preventative for adults as well? I think earlier you said we kind of weren't sure about that.

[00:38:54] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, it and it's just, I mean, my personal opinion is of course it does, but we just don't have a conclusive, scientific answer because of the lack of studies. There's some evidence that shows. You know, the addition of fluoride prevents cavities in adults. And from 2004 to 2006, an observational study was done of 4,000 Australian adults over the age of 15 that showed a 10% lower rate of fillings, cavities, and decay in the adults who had the fluoridated public water.

Then Australia did another smaller study and that showed even lower rates. So these findings point to fluoridated drinking water, preventing cavities in children and adults, but we just need more studies.

[00:39:41] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so what about those bougie folks that only drink bottled water? Is there fluoride in there too?

[00:39:46] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, a bottled drinking water rarely has fluoride added to them, but it can naturally be present depending on the water source. The thing is, unless the label makes a claim about the product's, fluoride content, there is no requirement to list the amount of fluoride and bottled water on the label.

[00:40:06] Jordan Harbinger: I see.

I drank that Alcoa brand water from Fox Height, Arkansas, or whatever it was. So maybe there's some in there. Uh, but yeah. Now now's a great time to unveil my new brand of bottled drinking water, Colorado Brown Stain. I'm open to ideas on what the label should look like, by the way. Alright, so fluoride in our food and water is unavoidable.

I know some folks think that fluoride is a medication essentially that's being forced on communities, right? That's the narrative and that it causes bone cancer. I think that's one thing that I'd heard recently. I've also seen protests on this, and there are theories going around online. I. So what does the science actually say about this?

Yes, we can get sick. Yes, we can barf, but what about the serious stuff that people are actually worried about?

[00:40:46] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, sure. I mean, first let's be clear. The fluoride in our water and our dental products is not a medicine. A US court decision ruled that fluoride is a nutrient, not a vitamin, and definitely not medication,

[00:41:03] Jordan Harbinger: eh?

Okay. But that's like a semantic argument. Like, oh, a court said it's technically a different thing. Well, okay, that other thing is still harmful. I don't know. That's not totally convincing if I'm honest. What's the difference between those terms, nutrient instead of medicine or not a vitamin and medicine?

Why does it matter?

[00:41:18] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I mean, nutrients, vitamins, and medication are distinct scientific categories, and that means that their rolls are legally defined too. So nutrients come from foods, that's our carbs, our fats, our proteins. We get vitamins from our food, but. The vitamins are things we don't make ourselves, and they play various roles like acting as antioxidants and supporting our immune function.

So unlike nutrients and vitamins, medications are things that are designed to treat or prevent diseases. And they are all regulated by health authorities. And there is zero evidence fluoride interacts with any vitamin or medication, but it's a, it's a nutrient and not a medication because it's a mineral.

[00:42:08] Jordan Harbinger: I see. I guess I've never had a pharmacist say like, Hey, don't mix this medication with tap water because, or, or toothpaste for that matter. I've heard people brush your teeth.

[00:42:17] Jessica Wynn: Yeah,

[00:42:17] Jordan Harbinger: yeah. Exact. No. Brushing your teeth while you're on this. I need that medication. But I've heard people express concerns that fluoride increases the risk of cancer.

That's the one that scares me.

[00:42:25] Jessica Wynn: Right. And I've seen that too everywhere. And it's really strange because. Tons of research and studies show that fluoride does not increase the risk of cancer or other serious health problems for that matter. People also claim it. It contributes to diabetes and heart and kidney problems, but the National Cancer Institute amongst several other institutions endorse fluoride as safe and effective.

Careful epidemiological studies have failed to support associations with either cancer or any of those other conditions. There's just zero evidence.

[00:43:06] Jordan Harbinger: What about bones? Does fluoride strengthen our bones too? It seems like that would follow if it strengthening our teeth.

[00:43:12] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. It seems like it should affect our bones and nails, but, yeah.

Makes sense. But clinical trials, they've actually had conflicting findings about fluoride doing enough to prevent bone fractures. So one study showed a significant reduction in fracture risk. Another study found no change in fracture rates or bone density at all. So it, it's unclear. We know our bones absorb it, but is it doing anything?

I don't, it doesn't seem like it.

[00:43:39] Jordan Harbinger: Is this only a US thing? I know it started in Michigan, but do other countries allow fluoridated water? I'm assuming it's fluoridated in other developed nations. Maybe it's not.

[00:43:47] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, well, I mean, again, it depends on the water supply, but many countries add fluoride to their water supply.

The British government very recently announced a new expert review of fluoride to strengthen the legislation around fluoridated water. They wanna. Get more of their water fluoridated and the evidence that fluoride protects against cavities is just overwhelming and, and not up for debate. But for some reason in England and Wales, less than 10% of the population receives fluoridated water.

[00:44:20] Jordan Harbinger: That is interesting. Yeah. So there is actually something to why Brits are notorious for rotten teeth. I really thought that was sort of an Austin Powers meme because he was from the 1960s. Yeah. Wow. That's kind of funny.

[00:44:33] Jessica Wynn: Every stereotype's rooted somewhere, I guess, but unfortunately the fluoridation proposals are, are really opposed there by people who see fluoride as an unjustified hazard and the debate.

Raises both scientific and ethical questions in, in every country, you know, there's, there's different problems in countries that are in what's called the natural fluoride belt. And that extends from, you know, like Turkey through China, Japan, and the mid East Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, that's like the whole fluoride belt.

The rates of fluorosis are high there, so what they're actually debating is de fluoridation. And, and that's okay for their location and the, and their products and their treatments that are available. This doesn't discount fluoride. It makes a stronger case for it to be leveled, but people might hear a piece of that information and think, you know, we should be taking it out.

But it's, it's just a regional thing. It's actually neighborhood by neighborhood, water source by water source that, that we need to look at.

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Discount codes and ways to support the show are in one clickable place. Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Now, for the rest of Skeptical Sunday, sort of surprising that Iraq, I ran in Afghanistan and Japan, China and Turkey are the ones with supposedly great natural water. I mean, look, I've met many Iranians with amazing, nice smiles.

I don't know much about Afghanistan or Iraq, but maybe it'll surprise me. Maybe the people's teeth are great, but Japan, I've been to Japan in China, in Turkey, and I am, let's just say I'm not impressed with the teeth that I saw when I was there,

[00:49:24] Jessica Wynn: but if there's too much fluoride that's

[00:49:26] Jordan Harbinger: true. Could have been that brown stain.

Yeah, that's true. Those delicious, delicious, delicious chocolate candy teeth, blah. Alright, so why the controversy? Are there actual experts who are against fluoride or is this like quack science with fringe, anti-science folks at the rim that are just loud squeakers,

[00:49:45] Jessica Wynn: uh, I mean, experts just objectively agree on the rationale for fluoride.

There's several alternative dentists that don't recommend fluoride, but the oral health benefits, they're not debated. It's the implementation of fluoride that's questioned. And when experts ask questions and pose hypotheses, that information can get distorted by the time it gets to the public, like with the fluoride belt.

But there just aren't enough studies being done to back up or disprove anybody's like skepticism.

[00:50:20] Jordan Harbinger: I see. Which does nothing to convince people who are skeptical of what fluoride is and does.

[00:50:25] Jessica Wynn: Right. But we do know what fluoride is and its use is quite transparent. The CDC, they have a website that lists fluoride levels in tap water by county.

[00:50:39] Jordan Harbinger: So is there any truth to the anti fluoride claims or is it all kind of conspiracy theories for the most part?

[00:50:45] Jessica Wynn: I mean, like any conspiracy theory, I guess those, those fluoride related ones, they come from a kernel of truth because exposure to higher levels of fluoride over a long period of time can not only cause dental fluorosis, but lead to a condition called skeletal fluorosis.

And that's when fluoride builds up in the bones and it, it gives you joint pain or, or weak bones. But that is so rare that only five cases total ever have been reported in the United States. So it, it does occur in places with naturally high levels of fluoride, but again, it's still pretty rare even over there.

And from this, people have wondered if fluoride then is contributing to arthritis or osteoporosis or, or some other kind of, of problems that they wanna blame something on.

[00:51:42] Jordan Harbinger: There's nothing wrong with asking questions, especially though when it comes to what we're putting in our bodies. I'm always kind of paying more attention to that now than I used to.

I used to just, well, let's not go there.

[00:51:51] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, we mature, but I mean, of course, and we should be asking the questions, but we also need to be understanding the studies that back up those questions. So if it's a balance of fluoride intake that's best for our teeth, you know, it might be the same for other conditions, but many experts consider evidence of these claims to be weak and coming from flawed studies.

But all of this, you know, gray area confusion. Does lead to a bigger point about fluoride studies.

[00:52:26] Jordan Harbinger: Okay? Which is

[00:52:27] Jessica Wynn: well prof, fluoride side, they can demonize those who question fluoride and it makes it difficult to get funding for those kinds of hypotheses. Uh, you know, on the other hand, the anti fluoride camp has convinced many communities to deny the benefits of water fluoridation to millions of children and adults.

And then those people suffer higher cavity rates and, and dental bills. So community health programs, they need to be based on scientific evidence, not arguments or feelings.

[00:52:58] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, okay. So it seems like we should fund all kinds of fluoride studies, but once something hits the level of conspiracy theory, mountains of evidence, that's seldom enough to convince the other side once they've made up their minds on something.

So you can't really reason your way out of something. That you've emotioned yourself into. We've heard that many times from people on the show about conspiracy thinking.

[00:53:18] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, of course. We all need to practice more stoicism or at at least let people know the variables involved with fluoride. Like it depends on our age, our sex, our location.

[00:53:32] Jordan Harbinger: That sounds like a chat room from the nineties. Remember that A SL, I guess a geology and geography lesson should come with every tube of toothpaste. Maybe that's what the little code is on the bottom where they clamp it. Right?

[00:53:45] Jessica Wynn: I mean it, it couldn't hurt, but it's not just a matter of understanding that fluoride is too high in some parts of the world.

It's also understanding that our fluoride consumption, it's being observed and being corrected all the time That that Cochrane review in 2015, they concluded that early scientific investigations on water fluoridation. Which were mostly conducted before 1975 are now deeply flawed, which of course people are then they think fluoride's totally wrong.

But it wasn't because it was flawed research it or, or some kind of mind control. It's what we talked about earlier, that no way in 1901 or the twenties or the forties or even the sixties, could somebody have imagined the availability of fluoride we have today. The early studies just didn't account for the subsequent widespread use of all these fluoride containing products.

[00:54:42] Jordan Harbinger: And I bet people saw that as, like you said, something's wrong with fluoride. We it, the whole thing was one big mistake.

[00:54:48] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. Which wasn't the case. But when you talk about water, I mean there's just something so personal about our water. Yeah. And people take the sanctity of their water really seriously.

And most people who do worry about the water fluoridation, they aren't conspiracy theorists. They're just concerned because they think a harmful chemical is in the water supply,

[00:55:13] Jordan Harbinger: I guess conspiracies about minerals in the water supply that just doesn't get as many clicks as ones about chemicals or mystery substances in the water supply mine control minerals.

Sounds really dumb.

[00:55:25] Jessica Wynn: Come on, man. I mean, yeah, come on. Adding anything to the water supply sounds like some movie plot, but it, it's just not the case here. It's easy to spin though, right? I mean, experts hesitate on publishing findings that might criticize fluoride, of course, because no matter what side you're on, that's bad in, there was a really controversial study, kind of the most famous one that came out in 2019.

The reputable medical journal, JAMA Pediatrics, they published this study that suggested a link between fluoride pregnant women and the IQ of their children. It was really scary and it warned pregnant women, Hey, like, just watch your fluoride consumption.

[00:56:11] Jordan Harbinger: How would you do that?

[00:56:12] Jessica Wynn: I know the author of that study, Christine Till said, you know, quote, I think this message could be easily misconstrued as us saying, don't drink fluoridated water.

We're not saying that. We don't wanna stir up controversy.

[00:56:26] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, come on though. Right? Like, Hey, uh, watch your fluoride consumption. Oh my God. Should I not be having this? No, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying, you know, just be careful, like, what does that mean? So, of course, let me guess. This did stir up controversy because that article sounds terrifying, especially if you're having a baby.

[00:56:42] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, of course. But it's, you know, you'd have to read the whole article to understand what they're saying. Yeah. Good. And you know, like a lot of information people, they're not reading this study and they just assume the worst from what Twisted facts they hear. Yeah. So there's this noted anti fluoride group called the Fluoride Action Network, and they posted links to over a dozen media reports of this study with misleading headlines.

They issued their own press release two days after the study ran, claiming that to continue fluoridation in the name of dental health is a huge disservice to the children of this country. It was just such a hyperbolic reaction and really dangerous.

[00:57:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I understand though. Social media campaigns are not exactly known for their adherence to the facts and journalistic integrity.

People generally, they listen to what they want to hear or the stuff that they already agree with in the first place.

[00:57:35] Jessica Wynn: Of course. And that's just human nature. And we, we see that in the fluoride debate. Like when environmental lawyer, anti-vaccine proponent and presidential candidate Robert Kennedy Jr.

Tweeted a CNN story covering that JAMA study. Someone tweeted back that, you know, fluoride's, this byproduct of aluminum and we've been conned for years to put it, our water. And we've all just been drinking poison.

[00:58:03] Jordan Harbinger: So we're back to the doctor. Strange Love conspiracy. So it's not just fiction, it's literally a, a comedy, but here we are.

Yeah,

[00:58:10] Jessica Wynn: right. But RFK agreed with that response and it went viral and people trust who they feel is right. Not the most reasonable explanation. Like on infowars, the right wing conspiracy theorist, Alex Jones.

[00:58:25] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yeah,

[00:58:25] Jessica Wynn: yeah. He devoted a segment to this study and just wrongly claimed that fluoride brain damages babies and lowers your iq, and then immediately after.

Flagged water filters sold on his website. So my skepticism of the skepticism is pretty high.

[00:58:44] Jordan Harbinger: Do Alex Jones water filters filter out the fluoride and the chemicals in the water that are turning the fricking frogs gay. Two sound bites in a row, but I cannot help myself here. Hold on. Hang on. I don't like 'em.

Putting chemicals in the water that turn the frigging frogs gay. I mean, how are skeptics supposed to gain confidence that fluoride is responsible for more good than bad?

[00:59:06] Jessica Wynn: Oh my gosh. What is wrong with gay frogs? But anyway,

[00:59:09] Jordan Harbinger: nothing but it's, you know, it's chemically gay is different than just regular gay.

I guess we don't, that's another skeptical Sunday.

[00:59:17] Jessica Wynn: It's tough because, you know, like we said, people are listening to what they wanna hear in response to all this misinformation about the JAMA study. Public health groups like the UK's National Health Service and the CDC and the a DA, they all got together, they all put out statements about fluoridation of public water supplies as being the single most effective public health measure to help prevent tooth decay.

But I mean, there was a lot of damage done from the article already.

[00:59:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. There's too much momentum. Public opinion is really easily swayed towards negative things, I guess.

[00:59:54] Jessica Wynn: Yeah. And, and as the tenor of the public debate over fluoride, you know, has slowed necessary research into this health program that affects millions of us, you know, it gets just so confusing.

But experts agree that the hypothesis that fluoride is like a neurodevelopmental toxicant. Sure. Like let's give that some serious consideration, but let's not. You know, confuse that with support for banning fluoride. Researchers know they have to walk on eggshells around the topic of fluoride. To the point that the editorial note of that JAMA study said the decision to publish this article was not easy.

I mean, research shouldn't be that crazy.

[01:00:39] Jordan Harbinger: No, that is crazy. That that's crazy. And it makes sense that people are worried about this, in my opinion. But is there something there of concern or not?

[01:00:45] Jessica Wynn: I mean, I. I'm not concerned, but definitely there's something to study, of course, as less and less fluoride's required in our water supply because more and more is on the shelves.

There could come a time when it might make sense to stop adding it, but right now there's a lot of inequity in that solution.

[01:01:06] Jordan Harbinger: I just find it interesting we're getting fluoride from food on the shelves just 'cause there's stuff from other areas that's imported or like we're using plaques or something and rinse and different kinds of toothpaste.

It's just really kind of a, one of those neat things about the, the human ecosystem and food system that Yeah, we probably should be paying attention to. But you mentioned there's currently inequity in the fluoride solution. What does that mean? How so?

[01:01:27] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I just mean that it, it's really subjective to where you live, so.

A lot of people say removing fluoride would have negative dental health effects in vulnerable communities. And what I mean by vulnerable is like there was a 2019 study that removed fluoride from Juno Alaska's water supply. And what happened was there was a staggering increase in cavities in the children there that were under six.

They say it cost an estimated $300 more per child a year for the dentist. And the study says that this is probably because, and this makes sense to me, that Juno Alaska's. Their market shelves. They have a much more limited selection of foods and dental products than we do on the mainland.

[01:02:17] Jordan Harbinger: And it's probably expensive to get stuff from the mainland.

So like, yeah, some sort of weird rinse is not high on your list. Okay, so this is really, the fluoride in the water is a city by city decision, correct?

[01:02:28] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, I, I mean, like I said, it's water source by water source really. You know, starting in 1901, McKay and his colleagues, they did really deliberate diligent research and, you know, fluoride's a medical discovery that should be marveled, it should be celebrated.

And it is just objectively one of the great public health achievements of the 20th century. So, you know, fluoride health, it can be achieved through supporting more research, understanding what that research is and just discussing. Fluoridation practices that are optimal for everyone's oral health

[01:03:09] Jordan Harbinger: and researched of course.

So we have updated fluoride policies when it comes to what we and our children are ingesting. I just, yeah, I don't think we should rest on a hundred plus year old laurels with this one either, so. So water we waiting for, let's flood people with the facts on fluoride wom. Thanks Jessica, appreciate it.

[01:03:28] Jessica Wynn: Yeah, my pleasure.

[01:03:29] Jordan Harbinger: And thanks everyone for listening and putting up with my sound bites and puns today. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday toJordan@jordanharbinger.com. Show notes@jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn and you can find Jessica on her substack between the lines and we'll link to that in the show notes as we always do. This show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Foggerty, Ian Baird and Gabriel Mizrahi.

Our advice and opinions are our own, and yes, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer and I'm sure as heck not a dentist. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Also, we might get a few things wrong here and there, especially on Skeptical Sunday, so if you think we really drop the ball on something, definitely let us know.

We are usually pretty receptive to that. Y'all know how to reach me, jordan@jordanharbinger.com. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You are about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Professor Scott Galloway, who's here to give you uncomfortable truths on life strategies for success and happiness.

[01:04:50] Clip II: Most of the people, young people I deal with, envision themselves in kind of the top economic class, or at least aspire to it. Mm-Hmm. Two basic rules. Get certified and get to a city.

[01:05:00] Jordan Harbinger: I know, of course, most people wanna be in the 1%. You know what? Actually I take it back, I think now. Most people wanna be in the 0.1%.

They just think that's what the 1% is. A

[01:05:11] Clip II: hundred percent. A hundred percent. The myth of balance is a myth. And the other big myth is this notion that you should follow your passion and the notion that you should follow your passion is dangerous. 'cause most passion sectors are overinvested. If you wanna open a nightclub, go to work for Vogue or play professional sports or music, just recognize you better get a great deal of psychic income from those things because the monetary income relative to your effort will be dramatically lower than other asset classes.

Your job as a young person is not to follow your passion, to find out what you're good at, and then invest the time, the grit and the energy to become great at it. The accoutrements that follow, being great at something. Status, respect your colleagues money, access to better healthcare, the ability to take care of your parents and your kids.

You will become passionate about whatever it is that lets you do those things. Happiness is love. Full stop. So the depth and number of relationships across work, family, and friends is the best practice around happiness.

[01:06:17] Jordan Harbinger: Scott has a bunch of great advice, whether you're young or old, and you wanna live a rich and happy life, whether that means economics or not.

And that's episode 2 0 4 with Scott Galloway, solving the Algebra of Happiness here on the Jordan Harbinger Show.