Your family helped a 62-year-old convict who was “wrongfully convicted” of the statutory rape of his stepdaughter get back on his feet — until he went off and eloped with your 23-year-old sister. Now that conviction seems like it might not have been so wrongful after all, and you’re wondering how you can protect your sister if he’s just been on the hunt for another victim. We’ll try to help find answers to this and more here on Feedback Friday!
And in case you didn’t already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at firstname.lastname@example.org. Now let’s dive in!
On This Week’s Feedback Friday, We Discuss:
- Why did our advice to the job negotiator in episode 553 seem counter to our usual stance on negotiation?
- How can you make sure your 23-year-old sister is safe now that she’s eloped with a 62-year-old ex-con?
- You’re vaccinated and set to be the maid of honor at a wedding, but you’re uneasy because the groom’s family doesn’t even believe in COVID — and will be taking zero precautions to protect themselves and others (in spite of the recent surge in delta variant deaths). How do you express your concerns to the bride-to-be without losing your lifelong friend?
- You’re a busy stay-at-home mom and newly full-time student trying to stay focused, but your husband has gotten in the habit of calling you from work — sometimes for an hour at a time. Is there a nice way to convey that when he’s working, you’re working, too, and he should reserve these calls for emergencies?
- Your teen daughter suffered a brain injury that has left her with daily headaches, nausea, dizziness, and head fog. Now she’s under pressure to apply to colleges, but she’s angry and behaving like a victim instead of doing the necessary work to regain her cognitive performance. How can you help her make progress instead of enabling her inaction?
- You’re eager to start your own business as a wedding coordinator after hiring one for your own wedding and realizing your company vastly underpays you. Is there a protocol for asking this person for advice even though they would technically be your competition?
- Have any questions, comments, or stories you’d like to share with us? Drop us a line at email@example.com!
- Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.
- Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi.
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Miss the show we did with prolific art forger Ken Perenyi? Catch up here with episode 282: The Secret Life of an American Art Forger!
Resources from This Episode:
- Dan Carlin | Apocalyptic Moments in Hardcore History | Jordan Harbinger
- Charles Duhigg | The Secrets of Being Smarter Faster Better | Jordan Harbinger
- Why Hustle Culture Makes You Miserable (And How to Break Out of It) | Jordan Harbinger
- Is Friend’s Fiancé Despotic or Simply Erotic? | Feedback Friday | Jordan Harbinger
- Alex Kouts | The Secrets About Negotiation Part One | Jordan Harbinger
- Alex Kouts | The Secrets About Negotiation Part Two | Jordan Harbinger
- Alex Kouts | The Secrets About Negotiation Part Three | Jordan Harbinger
- How to Say Yes to Post-Traumatic Success | Feedback Friday | Jordan Harbinger
- Eight Persistent COVID-19 Myths and Why People Believe Them | Scientific American
- Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19 | FDA
- Steve Bannon | Wikipedia
- Anderson Cooper | Wikipedia
- Word of the Day: Bailiwick | Merriam-Webster
- Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) Symptoms and Causes | Mayo Clinic
562: Old Ex-Con Mister Eloped with My Young Sister | Feedback Friday
[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with my Feedback Friday producer, my FBF BFF, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. I want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how amazing people think and behave. Our mission on the show is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. So you can get a deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening even inside your own mind.
[00:00:37] Now, if you're new to the show, on Fridays, we give advice to you, we answer listener questions. The rest of the week, long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. This week we had Dan Carlin, epic history podcast or sort of a historian — sort of an historian, excuse me — and how the world might end among other topics. A great conversationalist as you might imagine. The guy has been podcasting as long as I have. And we had one from the vault with Charles Duhigg on motivation, habit, and productivity. I don't even like the word motivation because it sort of conjures up Instagram nonsense, but Charles is solid. It's science. It's not bro-motivation garbage that you would find on social media. It's actual substantive research delivered in an entertaining format.
[00:01:21] Speaking of which I write every so often on the blog, jordanharbinger.com/articles. My latest post is Why Hustle Culture Makes You Miserable and How to Break Out of It. I've been wanting to write this piece or this type of piece for years. And you guys know I have some serious beef with the whole rise-and-grind mentality. I've learned firsthand. There's a much better way to operate in life. In this piece, I talk about the toxic philosophy at the heart of this productivity porn , offers some concrete techniques for breaking out of it, and point you to some other high quality sources of self-help, if you want to call it that. So you can find that article and all of our articles at jordanharbinger.com/articles.
[00:01:57] And you heard me talk about this on the show before probably a few months back, but I wanted to highlight this once again, I got an online trainer and I was highly skeptical of online fitness training, but about six, seven months ago through some business connections, I decided to give online training a shot. This has turned my entire life around in such a good way. Like I said, I was skeptical of online training. This has really delivered. I'm more flexible. I can play on the floor with my son, a bunch. I can run around a ton. I can lift heavy things. I don't get back pain. I fixed some knee and hip issues that were starting to come up, which turned out to be because of an imbalance. I feel much healthier. I look better. I mean, it's just like really just flipped everything around for me. And I highly recommend it to anybody. That's been like, "Oh, maybe I should get in shape." It's not just about losing weight. It's about getting stronger functional fitness. You know, if you're spooked to go to the gym or your workouts are half-assed. Get a trainer. I'm telling you. This company is called Wrkout. W-R-K-O-U-T.com, W-R-K-O-U-T.com. Usually you get a free trial, but I love this company. So now if you tell them that I sent you, you'll get your first three sessions free and 20 percent off your first training package. Again, I highly recommend it. That's W-R-K-O-U-T, so workout without the first O.
[00:03:12] By the way, a few weeks back, we took a question from a guy who was negotiating a job offer. That was episode 553, as part of his negotiation, he was asking for a guaranteed yearly dinner with the managing director, the MD of his new company. Now, this is a new job. In our response, we advised him against pushing for that commitment as part of his compensation package. But as one of our listeners pointed out, this is actually one of Alex Kouts and my recommendations for getting the most out of a job offer or negotiation. Now, Alex is our resident negotiation expert here on the show. I did a great three-part interview with him back in the day. And I generally agree with his whole philosophy of negotiation.
[00:03:49] The reason we told this particular guy — to answer all of you who pointed this out — the reason we told him not to push for that guaranteed dinner was that Gabe and I felt it was a little presumptuous or it was a little cringe in some way. And I couldn't put my finger on it, but honestly it's because it's a new job. The guy who wrote in he'd already gotten almost everything he wanted in his negotiation. We thought it might rub the MD the wrong way to be essentially forced to have dinner with somebody that he doesn't know and doesn't have a previous relationship with.
[00:04:16] Now, when we want to negotiate a dinner or a meeting with somebody close to the crown, we call it. It should be somebody you already know. And I wanted to clarify that because I know this is a bit of a contradiction. I usually do encourage people to secure a lunch with their boss from time to time to be close to the crown, so to speak. But you have to take the context into account. Once this is in the company, he's building strong relationships, then it's great for him to say, "Hey, now that I'm here, I'm sticking around. I'd love to grab dinner with you from time to time." And I think that invitation would go over very differently from formally requesting a total stranger's company at the outset of your job interview.
[00:04:53] Now, this can be context dependent. We could have been wrong here, but I wanted to clear that up and thanks to Zebra and Aldo89, and everyone else who wrote in about this for bringing this to our attention. It is a great question. It's a good reminder, also that whatever we talk about here on the show, it's never gospel. It's never one size fits all. You have to apply it in your own way, depending on your goals and your circumstances, taking all of the relevant variables into account. But I think the main thing here was he didn't know the guy and he was new to the company. And that can put a little bit of a weird spin on things, especially since, Gabriel, negotiating the close-to-the-crown meeting and dinner, lunch, whatever it's already a little bit like, "What? You want to do, what?" Most HR people have never even heard of this. It's not really a usual thing to request. It's a great idea, but since it's already unorthodox, you don't want them to think, "This guy is so weird. Who does this?" You want them to go, "Well, that's Jordan, he's a gunner. And he's always thinking outside the box. It's not weird for him to negotiate dinner with the CEO once a year. You know, we thought he was kidding because he's that guy, but he wants to be able to get in front of the power brokers in the company and share ideas. And that's okay, so we're going to throw this in the offer." And then it's like, "Hey, he's already killing it for us. He wants this weird thing. Can we do it in the buses?" Like, "Sure. I guess so, Why not." When you're new, you don't want to come in and they're like, "So this is the freaking weirdo who wants dinner with me. Like he wants like an annual date with the boss. This guy's weird." You know, you don't want to come in with any sort of weird presumption against you. That's never good for obvious reasons.
[00:06:21] Alright. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?
[00:06:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabe. Six years ago, my dad and I started visiting a man in prison, we had been told, was wrongfully convicted. We visited every month and I wrote to him until he was released at the age of 62 last year. Our whole family was there to greet him outside the gate when he was released. And we were as happy as could be that he would finally get to enjoy life again. We cleared the apartment in the back of our house and he moved in with us. My four siblings and I had a lot in common with him, but he and my 23-year-old sister seemed to form a special bond. She had always struggled to make friends. So we were happy for her. There were other red flags with this guy, but he explained them away and we chose to believe him because we didn't want him to feel stigmatized due to his prison time. Nine months later, we found out that he had seduced my sister to the fullest degree. Had it not come to light, they would have eloped. Needless to say his conviction for the statutory rape of his stepdaughter didn't seem so wrongful anymore. We immediately kicked him out of the house. And my sister said she saw how wrong it all was. And we all just tried to move on as best we knew how. Finally, almost two months after he left, my sister said she couldn't handle being away from him anymore. She said she knew full well what a bad guy he was, but she didn't care. She just had to be with him. Now, they're married.
[00:07:37] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Okay. What? Alright, that's a plot twist.
[00:07:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a turn.
[00:07:44] Jordan Harbinger: I was not really, I was not really expecting that.
[00:07:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Things escalated quickly.
[00:07:48] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, really.
[00:07:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: So my question is, is he likely to be content with her or will he start looking for another victim? What kind of communication should we maintain with her/them? Can we let this be and how could we have been so stupid? Signed, Fretting About My Sister and Her No-Good Mister.
[00:08:05] Jordan Harbinger: Holy cow, man, this is, that is — whatever I thought anything but that.
[00:08:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Intense.
[00:08:11] Jordan Harbinger: This is a pretty extraordinary story. There's a lot going on here. Let's dive in. First of all, I'm very sorry that this has happened to you guys. Obviously we don't know the details of what this guy did in the past. We don't know the circumstances of how he and your sister got together, but I'm hearing from your letter, this is all very disturbing for you guys, probably even kind of violating, at least in the sense of violating your family's trust and your generosity. You probably also feel like you lost your sister to this gross guy and that's got to be incredibly hard. And I'm just very you're going through this. Now, I think we have to acknowledge that this situation is complicated.
[00:08:47] Obviously, a 62-year-old man getting together with a 23-year-old woman, the daughter and sister of the people who supported him in a major way, no less, not exactly a fairytale romance, not the most respectful move on his part. The fact that he's an ex-con who went away for statutory rape in context, that's definitely suspicious. He could be dangerous as opposed to just a run of the mill pervert. It might fit a more worrisome pattern.
[00:09:14] Now, Gabe, I'm resisting — I don't want to be judged here because maybe when I'm 65, let's say by some horrible turn of events, I find myself kind of like this lonely dude. You know, what if something happens to Jen? I can't picture myself dating a 23-year-old now at age 41. So I've liked to think I probably wouldn't have aged 60 but who knows, maybe things change when you're older, but the fact that he got out of prison for something having to do with, let's just say an age difference to say the least and consent issues. It really throws some suspicion on this. Yeah, this might fit a more worrisome pattern is what I'm trying to say.
[00:09:49] At the same time, this guy and your sister are getting together, it's not illegal. She's 23. She's an adult. She might be a young adult. She might be naive or inexperienced or socially challenged, but there's no law being broken here. You said that they really hit it off. They have this special bond. And as two adults, despite the very unusual age gap, they're allowed to do that as gross as it might be in context, especially for the lot of us here. Does that make the relationship healthy? No. Does that make sense? Almost certainly not, but this situation is more, it's more unsavory than outright criminal. And your sister, her age, her experience personality, notwithstanding, she played a role in this decision too. Now, I know I'm going to get letters like, "But he's 62. He's a convicted fricking sex offender. He obviously manipulated this poor girl into running away from them. The difference in ages is inherently predatory." I do see that point. I even tend to agree but we also have to take your sister seriously as a person too.
[00:10:48] And as far as we know again, based on what we know from the letter, there wasn't any outright coercion going on here. He didn't force her to do anything. They fell for each other. She ran after him. That was their decision together. Now, if it turns out this dude was low-key grooming her for months and turning her against you guys and reprogramming her mind. So she'd do whatever he says. That's a different story. Then this guy's clearly predatory even if their relationship isn't illegal on page. But I'd still argue that at 23 years old, your sister has enough agency and sense of self to be making her own choices. They're not good choices, but they are hers.
[00:11:24] Point being, this is a very messy situation. If your sister were 16, it would be simple. She's a minor, he's a predator. He has a history of doing this. She needs to be protected and he needs to be sent away again, but because of their ages and the way they got together, this relationship, as upsetting as it is, you're going to have to accept it. You don't have to condone it. You don't have to celebrate it. You don't have to love it, but you do have to accept it because the reality is, this is what she's doing. It's done. They're married.
[00:11:51] But here's what gives me pause, your sister, she said she knew full well what a bad guy he is, but she didn't care. That's a little concerning, right? There's more here. That tells me that your sister has her own patterns that are making her vulnerable to this guy that he might be preying on them. But that's not enough to make her wake up and stay away from him, but it still doesn't change the fact that on some level, she's choosing this guy. Honestly, the bigger concern for me is if your sister and this guy ever have kids of their own, this is somebody who's been convicted and imprisoned for raping a minor. If he's a registered sex offender, if he actually did do this crime, that definitely makes this whole situation more complicated and potentially very scary. But in terms of legal recourse at this, there's not really anything you can do, which I'm sure it feels incredibly frustrating and pretty hopeless, but that's where you are right now.
[00:12:44] So the best thing you can do is keep an open line of communication with your sister. I would stay close, check in with her regularly, make her feel safe confiding in you. I would ask her general non-threatening questions. You know, "Are you okay? Is he treating you alright? How do you guys live? What are you guys up to? How are you feeling these days?" that kind of thing. If this guy ever turns around and hurts her or hurts somebody else or gets into other legal trouble, you want your sister to feel comfortable calling you and coming to you. And at that point, my hope is that you'll have enough trust built up to be like, "All right, sis, this relationship is dangerous, the situation is wrong. You know it, I know it. You have to come home." It's like talking to a cult member. Your sister is in thrall to this guy. She feels loyal to him. It'll take some time and effort to pull her out, but when she's ready, you want to have an open channel rather than her being like, 'Well, crap, my family hates me. I can't call them. They're just going to be judgy. I haven't talked to him in two years," you know, you don't want that. So don't ice her out. She needs you close by if and when that time comes.
[00:13:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, that is absolutely the move, Jordan. And as for your other questions, is he likely to be content with her? Will he look for another victim? Honestly, who knows? It's impossible to say for sure given his history. Again, if he did, in fact do this crime, he could easily do it again, but that's pure speculation. I think that energy spent worrying about what he might do to somebody else now that would be better spent focusing on your sister, staying close with her, making sure she's all right, investing in that relationship.
[00:14:09] As for the guilt you feel about letting this happen, I totally understand why you feel that way. I'm sorry. You're carrying that around. I'm sure your dad feels that too. Probably your whole family does. In a way your father might bear more responsibility here. I mean, he might at least feel that he does because I think he was the one who decided to support this guy through prison, decided to help you guys write him letters, showed up the day he was released, invited him into the house. I mean, that's, that's probably a lot for him to carry around, but it might help you and him to remind yourselves that again, your sister is an adult. She's making her own choices and whatever led your sister to fall for this particular man. That's the result of years and years of family dynamics and personal experience. And who knows what else that were in play long before this guy came around and that are definitely not your job to be managing every moment of the day.
[00:14:57] So I don't think it's fair to take this on yourself. I get the feeling, but it's not fair to you. Although the fact that you do feel so responsible for your sister, I do think that says a lot about you and your relationship, and that's probably worth exploring, because again, it sounds like you're carrying around a pretty big burden. That's not really yours to carry. And also to Jordan's point radically oversimplifies just how complicated this situation really is.
[00:15:19] Jordan Harbinger: Totally. Yeah. She feels responsible for her sister. I'm guessing she's felt that way for most of her childhood, possibly even adult life, even though this woman is 23 and very much in the driver's seat, this crisis with this guy is forcing that dynamic to the surface, in addition to a lot of other things, obviously. And re-examining that sense of responsibility that might be part of her work to do in coping with it. So that's our advice. Stay as close as you can with your sister, make sure she has a tether lifeline, whatever, back to your family. And if you ever find out that she's in danger or this guy's putting someone else in, then urge your sister to come back, report it to the police immediately.
[00:15:56] Also look, he's probably on parole, just saying even a minor violation could send them back to prison. Keep in mind that his parole officer, that's another pair of eyes on this guy. Hopefully, they'll be on top of him if he does something else. Again, not entirely up to you to make sure he never does anything bad again, but until that happens, and this is going to be the hardest part, you have to accept your sister's decision, not just because you have no choice, but also because if your sister feels that you respect her autonomy, she'll be more likely to listen to you if/when you tell her to get out of this marriage and come home.
[00:16:30] And I hope she does listen. I hope whatever she's doing, you guys can continue to have a relationship because she's going to need you close by if things go sideways with this guy. We're rooting for you guys. Good luck.
[00:16:42] And Gabe, imagine how the dad feels like—
[00:16:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Brutal.
[00:16:45] Jordan Harbinger: —you bring this guy into your home, you turn out to be wrong. He runs off with your daughter and you're like, "I did this to my family."
[00:16:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's got to be a sense of betrayal after everything they did for him.
[00:16:57] Jordan Harbinger: For sure.
[00:16:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: And also just weird. I mean, it's like, you don't want that happening under your own roof with somebody who was already — I mean, they put so much faith in this guy. They believed his story.
[00:17:07] Jordan Harbinger: I know.
[00:17:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: And again, we don't know if he did it or he didn't do it, or if that's what he's doing now, we don't, we don't. But just the suspicion might, it's got to be a lot for him and to deal with.
[00:17:16] Jordan Harbinger: Absolutely. Look, we're rooting for you guys. Good luck.
[00:17:20] You can reach us firstname.lastname@example.org. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. It makes our job easier. Let us know what state and country you're in. That can help too. If there's something you're going through, a big decision you're wrestling with, or if you need a new perspective on stuff, life, love, work. How to bounce back to your former high-achieving self after a major trauma. And that was a super interesting one last week, Gabe. Hit us up email@example.com. We're here to help. We keep every email anonymous.
[00:17:49] You're listening to Feedback Friday here on The Jordan Harbinger Show. We'll be right back.
[00:17:53] This episode is sponsored in part by chilisleep. I struggled to sleep at night. Sometimes I tend to run warm. I ended up tossing and turning because I can't get cool enough to sleep. The chiliPAD has made a huge difference for me. The bed feels cool as if you just got in and stays cool all night long. Corbin Payne, who you hear on Feedback Friday, all the time, he just sent me a text this morning and said that he now sleeps like he's basically in a coma because he's not running like sauna level heat every time he sleeps. And another listener of the show wrote in and said she bought the chiliPAD as a last resort before getting a prescription for sleeping pills and reported that it worked so well. She's glad she tried the chiliPAD before resulting to meds, which of course those, the meds might let you sleep, but they mess up everything. Chilisleep makes customizable climate controlled sleep solutions that have helped me and listeners just like you, not only get a better night's sleep, but have also improved my entire wellbeing. Chilisleep makes both the chiliPAD and the Ooler innovative options that fit over the top of your existing mattress. You don't have to replace your mattress. They use water to control the temperature of your bed and lower your core body temperature and trigger deep restorative sleep. So it can be both warm or cool. The bed temperature range is 55 to 115 Fahrenheit. So for you Canadians out there that's 13 to 46 degrees Celsius.
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[00:20:22] And now back to Feedback Friday on The Jordan Harbinger Show.
[00:20:27] All right, what's next?
[00:20:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, a childhood friend of mine asked me to be her maid of honor in her wedding. I agreed. And I was initially very excited to be part of her special day. Then the pandemic hit. Her wedding date had to be pushed back multiple times because of the shutdown but we finally have a new date for this fall. I've had some health and safety concerns about the weddings since we are still in the middle of a pandemic and the Delta variant is raging, but I've tried my best to set my concerns aside. I'm vaccinated and all I can do is make safe decisions for myself and just hope for the best. Still it bothers me that the bride-to-be doesn't seem to have these same concerns. She's made a ton of complaints about safety measures and how she isn't going to let anything get in the way of her wedding. She recently mentioned that most of the groom's family doesn't even believe in COVID. The groom's family had a party earlier this year that turned into a super spreader event. I guess nobody learned from that. I want to talk to the bride-to-be and express my concerns, because I do feel we can still have this event and be safe about it. I don't want to put myself at risk, but at this point it's too late for me to drop out of the wedding. How do I express my concerns without her biting my head off? Signed, Runaway Maid of Honor.
[00:21:33] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, what a frustrating situation. This sucks. It really does. It's one thing if your friend and her fiance were like, "COVID is crazy. We're just going to take all possible precautions and hope for the best. We got to have a wedding," which is what any reasonable person having a wedding right now is doing but that's not what they're saying, right? They're saying, "Ah, social distancing is dumb and Greg's family thinks COVID is just a big hoax. So let's party," which is kind of in comprehensively stupid and frigging reckless right now in my opinion especially if you're going to have grandma and grandpa and other vulnerable people at the wedding, most of whom I'm guessing are unvaccinated on that side of the family if they don't believe in COVID, just going out on a limb here.
[00:22:10] So look, you basically have two options. Option one, you go, you wear your N95 mask. You keep your distance from others. You risk getting a light case of COVID to be part of your friend's big day, hopefully light case, which is a fair choice. Like you said, all you can really do is make safe decisions for yourself and hope for the best. You preserve your friendship, but you risk your own health, maybe your integrity a little bit, but you are vaccinated. So you should be reasonably well protected from serious infection as far as we know now, anyway.
[00:22:38] Option two, you declined to go. You explain your reasons why, you're very legitimate reasons, in my view, you protect your health and your integrity, but you risk pissing off your friend. I know you said it's too late for you to drop out of the wedding, but is it really? Will the whole day really fall apart without you? I know you're the maid of honor, but I got to think that she can get somebody else to stand in for you. I mean, I get the drama of matching dresses and all that, but if this wedding is about to be the single biggest super spreader event in Salt Lake City in September. "Sorry, Ashley, but I think you better ask your sorority sister who doesn't want to get microchipped by Bill Gates," or whatever the theory here is, "To put on the pink dress, stand droplet, spitting distance from Ashley, and don't tread on me, Greg because I don't want to catch Coronavirus from a bunch of people who get their medical advice from Instagram. Sorry. You know, that's just me."
[00:23:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I'm with you.
[00:23:28] Jordan Harbinger: I get that there's concerns on both sides, but if they don't even believe in COVID, I mean, that's like kind of outside the whole, maybe vaccines aren't safe. There's a middle ground here. These people are not in the middle ground, right? They're just not there. Either way, there's a cost. It's just about which costs you want to incur, but you also have to take into account the fact that you are vaccinated, which is great. That obviously protects you in a major way. Although we know it's still possible to get this thing, but if you did in all likelihood, you'd have a mild head cold for a few days. You'd be fine. And not to be preachy, but that's the freaking point of the vaccine, right?
[00:24:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. Agreed. And also it's so annoying that she has to worry about all of this just because they think COVID doesn't actually exist. It's incredibly infuriating. But look, if you think there's a way to make this event safer, here's how I would talk to your friend about it. I would explain to her, and you got to do this as non-judgmentally, as you can, because I'm guessing that your friend is going to have a hair trigger response to this. I would explain to her that she's taking a huge risk by having a wedding with zero precautions. You can remind her that this could be another super spreader event, like Greg's family reunion earlier this year. And that that could have real consequences for everybody, including them, including you. As much as you can, I'd approach this conversation from a place of collaboration rather than blaming and shaming. That's how you can avoid having her bite your head off, which is hard when you know you're right. But you got to do it. And then I would tell her, "Listen, there are some really simple ways to reduce the risk here." And then just tell her your ideas. You said you had some, go for it. Maybe they decided to hold the wedding outside, or maybe they hand out masks to the guests when they enter, or maybe they put hand sanitizer at every table, whatever it is.
[00:24:59] For what it's worth, my sister is actually getting married in six weeks and she and her husband are printing up custom masks that say, "I didn't get COVID at Zara and Johnny's wedding," I think is pretty funny. It's a cool way to encourage people to wear the masks and also pretty killer party favor in my opinion., I'm definitely going to be wearing that for a long time.
[00:25:16] So, you know, maybe you offer to take the lead on this as her maid of honor. You can work with our wedding planner to put some of those precautions in place, and then maybe you can feel better about joining. Although honestly, I just don't have high hopes for this going over very well. I mean, not only will she have to convince Ashley and Greg to actually take this seriously, they'll have to convince their whole Maskell family to take it seriously, too, which you know, they won't. So that's a tall order. And also, it's not her job. It is not her job.
[00:25:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's not her job at all, but this is why it's kind of a no-win situation. There's a good argument to be made for staying away. But, you know, there's also a good argument for attending as a fully vaccinated person and celebrating your friend in these super weird times. We can't control other people. We have to get back to some semblance of normality at some point as well. I'm not thinking like you need to virtue signal your way into changing her mind, right?
[00:26:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Definitely not.
[00:26:05] Jordan Harbinger: I think the situation is probably something between option one and two, which is you go to the wedding, you wear a mask, maybe even double up on those bad boys if it makes you feel better. We don't know. They're still running tests on how effective all that stuff is. You keep your distance from everyone, especially Greg and his cousin with the raspy cough.
[00:26:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, Greg has that cousin too.
[00:26:27] Jordan Harbinger: Of course. "Oh no, it's from vaping. It's not—"
[00:26:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's fine.
[00:26:29] Jordan Harbinger: Nothing to worry about. It's from vaping.
[00:26:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: I just got back from Vegas. I was yelling. It's fine.
[00:26:34] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:26:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Stay away from that guy.
[00:26:36] Jordan Harbinger: Maybe even decide not to stand up there on the alter, but hanging back in the crowd, stay at the reception for an hour or two, then go back to your hotel room, watch reruns a 30 Rock. That's a hundred percent legit. Totally, you're right. You can show up for your friend without exposing yourself to too much risk. And if your friend has a problem with that, then you might have a bigger issue to confront, which is how do you stay close with somebody who holds such radically different views? Like I am the last person to let politics get in the way of a friendship. I got friends all over the board, even on some of the extremes and we just agree to disagree on some of the stuff. But to me, this is not politics. This part is public health 101 and sort of decency and basic self-preservation. I don't know. I guess we just have to accept that we live in a world of probabilities now, and we're all free to make our own choices for better or for worse.
[00:27:22] Your friend has a right to have a super spreader themed wedding. And you have the right to just note the f*ck out of there after the photos America, right? So good luck. I'm wishing you the best of luck and tons of antibodies. And Gabe, here's an idea. Maybe they can serve ivermectin appetizers at the reception.
[00:27:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Or they're like their signature cocktail, it can be like the ivermectin-ni.
[00:27:46] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Just throw a couple extra drops to bleach in there for some punch.
[00:27:52] By the way this reminds me. You know who called me yesterday?
[00:27:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Who?
[00:27:55] Jordan Harbinger: Steve Bannon and Anderson Cooper in the same afternoon. I'm not trying to like name drop. I'm just saying this is surreal. And like, the polarity was wild? Like if you put them—
[00:28:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Super wild.
[00:28:08] Jordan Harbinger: If you put those two in the same room, it creates a black hole that swallows .
[00:28:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Were they calling just to say hi?
[00:28:15] Jordan Harbinger: No.
[00:28:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: The Feedback Friday questions?
[00:28:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, of course. Just bouncing some stuff off Bannon and Cooper.
[00:28:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: "What do I do? I just got laid off from my job. This guy, my boss, was like really powerful. And then I'm like, ah, I can't work with them anymore. And now I'm just kind of like running my own thing. What should I do?" That would be such a great Feedback Friday question.
[00:28:32] Jordan Harbinger: Is this Steve Bannon again? This is Steve. I know it's you. I know when it's you, all the breathing into the.
[00:28:39] If you're joining us for the first time, or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about the show, we now have episode starter packs. These are collections of your favorite episodes, organized by popular topic to help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com/start to get started.
[00:28:57] All right, what's next?
[00:28:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey Jordan and Gabe, I'm a stay-at- home mom and a full-time student. I decided to go back to school this year and it's been difficult because my husband has trouble understanding that I'm always busy now. When I wasn't in school and it was just caring for our young son, my husband got used to calling me from work whenever he wanted to. These phone calls are not 10 or 15 minutes long, they can last over an hour. Today, he called me to vent about work. And as soon as I told them, I couldn't talk because I had reading to do, he hung up on me abruptly. Is it wrong to tell my husband that while he's at work, I'm at work too and that he shouldn't call me during those hours, unless it's an emergency? How do I express this without making it sound like I don't care about him and the things he wants to tell me? Signed Finding the Gall to Say I'm Done Being on Call Without Starting a Brawl.
[00:29:42] Jordan Harbinger: Great question. First of all, major props to you for juggling so many responsibilities, being a stay-at-home mom and going to school and being an available partner is actually quite a lot to handle. You sound really ambitious and thoughtful. I'm sure that makes you a good mom, but it probably also gets pretty overwhelming sometimes, especially when your husband expects you to be on call, to be his friend/therapist at all hours of the day.
[00:30:07] So is it wrong to ask your husband not to call you while you're working unless it's an emergency? No, absolutely not. It sounds like your husband got used to having you available at all hours and he's having a hard time accepting that you have your own stuff to prioritize now. You basically have more than one job now, like a job-job. And it also sounds like he's not being very respectful of your time. Not to mention that he probably shouldn't be spending an hour on the phone, venting to you from a stall in the sixth floor office bathroom. Either he's ignoring more important stuff during business hours or he just has too much time on his hands. And the fact that he hung up on you kind of abruptly when you tried to assert this healthy boundary, not very fair in my opinion.
[00:30:47] So, how do you express this without making it sound like you don't care about him? Well, the next time you guys have some alone time, I would just talk to him about this. I would say something like, "Look, honey, I love that you want to talk to me about work. I love being there for you. You know, that I've been around for years, but I also have responsibilities of my own during the day now. I know that's an adjustment for both of us. I want to be a good mom. I also want to do well in school. And it's very hard for me to do all of that if I'm also on the phone for an hour with you, when I need to be reading or attending a lecture or doing my homework. If it's an emergency, I'll always pick up. But if it's not an emergency, let's wait to talk about it until you get home. This doesn't mean I don't care about you. It doesn't mean that I don't love you. It doesn't mean our relationship has to fundamentally change. It just means that during the day I have to focus on my work, just like you have to focus on yours," or not, apparently, he doesn't, but whatever, you know, he'll feel like he does. And then you guys can talk it out. You also might want to ask him why he hung up on you the other day. Tell him how that made you feel. Maybe he was really upset that you weren't available for him, or maybe he felt a little embarrassed that he was asking for you so much and you couldn't meet the need. Or maybe he just loves talking to you, which is sweet, but you know, like a little codependent in this case, my guess, is it's probably a mix of all three.
[00:32:01] Honestly, my bet is he was annoyed that she couldn't talk because usually he never hears her draw a boundary game. That's what I honestly think so. I'd explore that with him and get this stuff out in the open. And then I would come to an understanding about what you guys can realistically provide each other during business hours. And I think once you get into it he'll see your point. You'll come to a fair agreement about how to communicate during the day.
[00:32:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I think they will too. And if it turns out that there's more going on here than just wanting to chat in the middle of the day, you might want to ask him why he feels the need to call you so often. And for so long, I mean, is he avoiding something at work? Is he unhappy in his career? Is he angry? And he just needs to discharge that anger onto somebody and you just happened to be that person because I get the sense that there's something else going on here. If he is unhappy, maybe you can talk about making some changes at work or looking for a new job. If he's angry, maybe you can talk about healthier ways to cope with that anger or what to do with that anger. So he doesn't just put it all on you.
[00:32:54] Look, basically he needs to understand that his feelings in the moment, they can't always take precedence in your relationship, especially now that you're in school. Help him see that you're studying, that's just as important as him going to work. And that if it's not an emergency, it can just wait until dinner and you guys will deal with it then and it'll be fun.
[00:33:11] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. Something needs to shift here. You're not being unreasonable or unfair. This is marriage one-on-one stuff. But whatever your husband is dealing with, that is a little more complicated. So just help him sort that out. Once he sees the position he's putting you in, he'll probably realize that it's unfair and find a better way to manage his stress. All it takes is a willingness to understand where you're both coming from. So I hope you get to do that. Good luck.
[00:33:37] This is The Jordan Harbinger Show, and this is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back.
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[00:36:29] Jordan Harbinger: And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday.
[00:36:33] Alright, next up.
[00:36:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi guys. My daughter is 17 years old and has a brain injury from a door slamming into her head last year. She can't seem to clear her brain back to normal. She still has headaches, nausea, dizziness, and head fog daily. Although the idea of small steps leading to greater function, eventually that seems to be the key to walking this very slow road to recovery. Cognitive issues are so difficult to observe and measure, but she recently graduated from walking to jogging and she can now row on a river for 15 minutes. She's now feeling pressure to apply to colleges. She's a super smart girl and athlete, but I've seen her whole world turn around. She's angry. And I see her behaving as a victim. I want her to own her perspective and her experience. I see her missing out on life and often avoiding the necessary work to beat her symptoms because she doesn't want to feel bad. This work includes the exacerbation of symptoms we've been told are needed to get her brain to habituate. Is there anything we can learn about how to move along in terms of cognitive habits and processing? Is there any other advice you can give? Signed, A Mom Trying to Slog Through This Brain Fog.
[00:37:37] Jordan Harbinger: Sorry that your daughter went through this. Traumatic brain injuries are no joke. It sounds like the road to recovery has been slow and difficult for both of you. Gabe. I didn't even — how hard do you have to get hit with a door? Like I'm not making light of this, but—
[00:37:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Pretty hard.
[00:37:50] Jordan Harbinger: You must really have to get whacked with the door for that to—
[00:37:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: It must have been a serious injury. Yeah.
[00:37:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's kind of scary because usually you think like, "Oh, I was in a car wreck and now I have a TBI," not like, "I got hit with a door." That just sort of makes it seem way too easy to happen. It also sounds like she's improving though in so many ways. And that's amazing. I'm glad to hear that.
[00:38:08] So this question is a bit outside our bailiwick, since we aren't — did I say that right, Gabe? Bailiwick.
[00:38:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Bailiwick, yeah, it's a great word.
[00:38:15] Jordan Harbinger: Good enough. Since we aren't doctors, by any means, we can't offer medical advice, of course, but I can share a few general thoughts.
[00:38:21] What is a bailiwick? I don't even, I use that word. I don't even know what it means.
[00:38:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. I think it just means like your area of expertise. One's sphere of operations or a particular area of interest.
[00:38:30] Jordan Harbinger: Fair. I don't know. It just sounds like something old, sounds like old English, anyway.
[00:38:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:38:35] Jordan Harbinger: First of all, I think you already know this. Your daughter deserves a ton of patience and compassion. I've never had a TBI myself. My brain fog is totally natural, baked in from the start, but from what I've read. It can also be extremely debilitating, right? It's not just like headaches and nausea. A TBI can make you uncoordinated, confused, depressed, agitated, irritable. It can mess with your sleep, your mood, your appetite, your interest in activities and hobbies in life. Your daughter needs a ton of empathy and support right now. It's easy to say, "Oh, snap out of it. Keep fighting. Put your mind to it. Keep your nose to the grindstone," whatever cliche, right? For somebody wrestling with those symptoms, that might just feel impossible on some days. And I know, you know all that, but it's worth remembering when things get tough.
[00:39:19] Now that said, I completely understand your concern about her becoming a victim here or acting like a victim. There's definitely a fine line between compassion and enabling. If she can work through this, she should. She has to. If she wants to get back to living a full normal life, she has to. I'm not blaming her for getting down or feeling overwhelmed. She is a victim to some degree, but there's a difference between feeling like somebody with a traumatic brain injury and only seeing yourself as a traumatic brain injury case. And I think that's the mentality you're concerned about and you're right. It can be very tempting to fall into that as an identity, you see it all the time.
[00:39:56] The more you can encourage her to build on this progress and heal so she can move beyond this diagnosis the better. So as much as you can, I would support your daughter, champion her, push her, help her see the bigger picture without reinforcing the idea that this injury is the defining event of her life. I would also remind her that this progress might not always be linear. I've talked with a few people with injuries like this. She might feel like it's two steps forward, one step back sometimes. I'm guessing she'll have a couple of weeks where she plateaus or even regresses. And then there'll be a few days where she takes huge leaps forward. Stay positive, stay focused, get your daughter to commit to a tiny bit of incremental process every single day. Like most big goals in life, overcoming this injury, it's probably going to be a game of inches.
[00:40:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, I think it is too, absolutely. And applying to college, that would really be a great goal and a great exercise for her right now. That probably feels super daunting. I mean, it's intimidating and it takes a long time and there's a lot involved. So here's what I recommend. I would work with your daughter to break the application process up into bite-sized pieces. You know, things she can chip away at, in small amounts every single day. Maybe you help her figure out the deadlines and you work backwards to what she has to get done. Encourage her to do her best on every single step. Remind her that she's working towards something important and exciting for her future.
[00:41:11] And as best as you can try not to take over the process or micromanage her through this. I would support her and motivate her like Jordan just described. But you also got to give her the room to drive this process herself. She needs to know that she can still chase her goals and structure her work and succeed on her own without you standing over her shoulder every second. And when she does get into a school at the end of that process, that's going to be hugely validating for her. It'll show her how to persevere, even when things are hard. It will teach her brain how to do this stuff again. Great exercise. And it'll prove to her that with hard work and consistency, she can still go after what she wants. I imagined that that would be very, very empowering for her. I think she needs that win.
[00:41:51] Jordan Harbinger: She definitely does. It's almost like all these applications will be the first big test after her injury. And if she succeeds, when she succeeds, it will be a major boost to her confidence. It'll probably also be good exercise for the brain, like you said. So it's a kind of treatment in a way as well.
[00:42:05] As far as the anger, she's feeling avoiding her recovery work. That's a very common challenge. My recommendation is to find your daughter a good therapist to talk to. Ideally, somebody who can help her explore what this trauma and adversity is actually bringing up for her. You might even want to look for a health psychologist, specifically. Somebody who specializes in working with patients facing an illness or disability or trauma. Talking to somebody, getting some expert advice that could be super helpful for her right now.
[00:42:33] So basically you need to help your daughter help herself. You know this, it's a very tricky line that you're walking. So you have a tough role. You basically have to be a parent, a cheerleader, a taskmaster, a nurse, a tutor, a coach, and a friend all at once. And sometimes that'll mean not stepping in when your daughter is struggling and that's really hard, but I'm sure you're going to figure it out. Obviously, you want to help your daughter as much as you can. But the best thing you can do is give your daughter the gift of driving her recovery herself. That's the only way she'll build real resilience and find her own meaning in this challenge. And by the way, writing about this brain injury and what it's taught her, that could be an amazing college essay, just saying. So we're rooting for both of you. Good luck with this.
[00:43:14] Gabe, I think one thing maybe we didn't mention is just how plastic and adaptable the brain is, especially in somebody that young. Now, of course, we can't really get into that because we're not doctors, but I think if she really sets her mind to it, she's going to make an amazing recovery and I'd be more worried if she were my age, for example. Even then the brain is amazing.
[00:43:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's incredible.
[00:43:32] Jordan Harbinger: It's designed to essentially be like, "Ah, you got hit with a door. All right, we're going to move this over here." It just takes a while.
[00:43:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:43:38] Jordan Harbinger: You know, you can relearn anything, almost anything.
[00:43:40] All right. Next up.
[00:43:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Happy Friday, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a wedding coordinator who works for a fairly large corporation that owns eight venues. I recently got married myself and I hired a coordinator who did a pretty awesome job. Although I did realize that they did almost exactly what I do. After comparing what I paid to the amount I typically receive for my own services. I realized. I don't get paid enough for how much I do for my couples. While I'm very grateful to my company, I just know that I could thrive more by starting my own business. I now want to reach out to the wedding coordinator I hired for a sort of hand up. I'd love to ask her questions about how she got started and asked for general advice when starting a business in this field. What's the best way to ask for advice and help given that we would be each other's competition? Should I even ask her for advice at all? Signed, On a Mission to Create Some Addition With My Opposition.
[00:44:29] Jordan Harbinger: This is another great question. And I got to say, I really admire your attitude and your initiative here. I love that you got charged more than you charge your own clients. And instead of throwing a friggin tantrum or getting envious, you stopped and went, "Okay, she's making this much. I can make that much too." And your first instinct was to talk to the person who's doing this successfully, which is exactly the right mindset to have. So yes, I'm all for this idea, but you're right. You probably will be competitors one day, at least for something. So, how do you ask for help?
[00:44:59] Well, first of all, I would approach this conversation as an opportunity to learn and get to know this woman better, rather than asking her for any concrete favor. Like I wouldn't ask her for intros to vendors or free coaching on your price sheet or whatever. I would go in with a short list of questions about what you should be doing, learning, preparing for, get the story of how she got started, express interest in her career path, what her experience in the industry has been, what she's learned over the years, that kind of thing, because you're right.
[00:45:28] When your competitors, you do have to adjust your approach a little bit, but I actually think it's okay to acknowledge that you could say, "So listen, this might be a little awkward. I'm kind of in awe of the business you've built, it's inspiring. Honestly, I'm thinking about going out on my own. I'd love to be able to perform at the level you do. And I know that might make us competitors somewhere down the line, but if you're open to it, I'd love to ask you a few questions about how you got started," something like that. If this woman is friendly and secure, she'll probably respond pretty well to somebody who's eager to learn from her. But if she's like, "Ah, sorry, sweetie. You're my competition. No frigging way. I'm not giving you the keys to the castle." Don't let it throw you. Just say, "Okay. I understand." Find somebody else to talk to. People like that are not ever worth pursuing. It's not worth trying to change her mind.
[00:46:13] In my experience, people like that who are really closed off, they tend to plateau. They often fail eventually because they don't understand the power of being generous to their network and to other people, especially to ambitious newcomers who are just starting out. And that goes in both directions, by the way, because the other thing you can do to earn this woman's mentorship is to help her out. If you guys vibe, of course. For example, maybe you meet a great flower vendor and you introduce her to them. Maybe you meet a couple whose wedding you can't take because you're already booked or you're going on vacation so you refer them to her. It might seem like she's more in a position to help you right now, but you'd be surprised by how much you can help her if you get creative and you're looking for opportunities. And if she shares your values, that'll make her want to help you too.
[00:46:59] And that, by the way, that is how you can transform any competitive relationship into a collaborative one. If you focus on somebody else's needs, somebody who seems like your opposition can quickly become your peer, your partner, your colleague, your friend, your mentor, whatever it is. And yeah, the other person has to have that attitude too. But a lot of this is in your hands. People often come around when you decide to be generous first.
[00:47:22] So if you want my advice, it's this: try not to think of this woman as a rival, you need to convince, think of her as a peer that you want to connect with. Be transparent about your goal. Tell her that you want to build a business as great as hers. And you feel you have a lot to learn from her focus on questions that will give you the information and perspective. You need to figure things out for yourself. And while she answers them, get to know her too. Listen for any needs she has, opportunities you can help her with and then do your best to meet them. And hey, here's an idea. Maybe she needs some support and you go work with her for a few months or years or whatever it is to get your start in the business. I mean, it sounds like you're already started, so I don't want to tell you to go work for someone else if you really don't need that. But it sounds like it might be one of the best positions to be in is her sort of right-hand woman here.
[00:48:11] And in six months or a year, you know, you could be swapping tips, referring clients to each other, teaming up to tackle bigger things. Be good friends with each other, in what I can imagine is a pretty stressful industry, but it all starts with having a good conversation and organically building the relationship from there. So go for it. I think it's a terrific idea. Good luck on your new business. I think you're going to be very successful.
[00:48:33] Hope y'all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened. Thank you very much. Go back and check out Dan Carlin and Charles Duhigg if you haven't yet.
[00:48:41] If you want to know how I managed to book all these great people on the show, it's because of my network. A lot of the advice you hear comes from great people in my network as well. Check out our Six Minute Networking course, which is free. It's over on the Thinkific platform. jordanharbinger.com/course, the drills are designed to take a few minutes a day. I say, look, I wish I knew these things 20 years ago. Find it all. It's free, jordanharbinger.com/course.
[00:49:03] A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. There's a video of Feedback Friday eventually going up on the YouTube channel, jordanharbinger.com/youtube. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on Twitter, Instagram, or hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi or on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi.
[00:49:23] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others, share the show with those you love. If you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.
[00:49:57] If you're looking for another episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into here's a trailer for our episode, with Ken Perenyi, an art forger, who dodged both the FBI and the mafia and forged thousands of paintings very well, apparently because he was never caught. Check out episode 282 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.
[00:50:17] Ken Perenyi: He gave me a book on art forgery. I began to unlock the secrets. I was a storehouse of knowledge of how to create an illusion presented to an experienced expert, manipulate his mind and bring him to the inevitable conclusion that the painting is genuine. We flooded the market with my painting. And I couldn't believe what I did. I couldn't believe it. Then the dominoes started falling and eventually the FBI will lead to my door. They uncovered a mountain of evidence against me.
[00:51:01] Jordan Harbinger: But they never actually got you. Why did it go away? Why did you never get indicted? And then how are we having this conversation?
[00:51:11] Ken Perenyi: I guess that's the greatest story of all.
[00:51:13] Jordan Harbinger: If you want to hear more about how Ken made millions forging art, dodged the mafia, and even the FBI check out episode 282 of The Jordan Harbinger Show available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now.v
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