499: Preparing a Polyamorous Protection Plan | Feedback Friday

Preparing a Polyamorous Protection Plan | Feedback Friday (Episode 499)

Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. Today, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my consigliere in consultation. Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice. That you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. And our mission on this show is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. So you can get a deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, even inside your own mind.

[00:00:39] If you're new to the show on Fridays, we give advice to you and answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, performers. And if you're joining us for the first time, or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about the show, we have episode starter packs. These are collections of your favorite episodes, organized by topic. That'll help you get a taste of everything we do here on the show or help your friends and family get a taste of everything that we do here. Just visit jordanharbinger.com/start to get started. 

[00:01:13] This week, David Kilgour, talking about — and I can't believe I'm about to say this out loud — forced organ trafficking. This is exactly what it sounds like. It's horrific. This is something that's really happening. I thought it was a conspiracy theory at first, until I looked into all of these investigators and human rights reports and the UN, and it's just horrifying. That's not one for kids in the car, but it is fascinating. We also had Rob Dyrdek, pro skater. He's the guy you see on MTV whenever you turn on MTV, because his show Ridiculousness is there 85 percent of the time. He's actually a brilliant, very driven entrepreneur. He's not just a guy who falls over on skateboards or laughs at other people falling over on skateboards. He has a very, very sharp business mind and we get into the weeds on a lot of that. I think that was a great episode, especially if you're interested in anything, he's doing that isn't again, him blowing something up or driving a car really fast off of a ramp. So make sure you've had to listen to everything that we created for you here this week.

[00:02:09] You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line. That makes it a lot easier and if you can include the state that you live in, state and country, that helps us give you more detailed advice. So if there's something you're going through any big decision you're wrestling with. Or if you need a new perspective on life, love, work, what to do about your schizophrenic mom. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help. We keep every email anonymous. 

[00:02:39] So Gabe, this is episode 499. Obviously, the next episode will be 500. That's how that works. A big milestone for us here on the show. And many people probably know that I had like 700 episodes in a previous show. And I have to say this episode, these 500 episodes, when a hell of a lot faster, both in reality, and in my mind than the first 500 of my last show or the first 700, or even the first bit of any media that I've ever done. And I love that because it's been an incredible transition to this new show. Coming out of the ashes, being on top again, both in terms of iTunes rank and just my own spirits in dealing with all this, but really this is just the start of what I have planned for this show and for my career at age 41.

[00:03:24] And I think about it now, like 20s to 30s, I didn't know what was going on. I was in school from the majority of the time. 30 to 40, I'm like, all right. I get it. I got what I'm doing. I'm on a roll. Now, I've got 40 to 50 and even 50 to 60 to really just crank out what I hope is some of my best work before I become old and irrelevant. I don't know. Hopefully, I leave them wanting more. So I'm super proud and grateful to all of you for listening and for being a part of our family here, especially on Feedback Friday. 

[00:03:52] Gabe, I know you feel the same. The messages, the reviews from the past month were really next level. So thank you for writing in. Thank you for sharing your stories with us. Thank you for telling us what you think of the show. It really does mean a lot to all of us here. And we've got the doozies as usual, Gabe, so let's go. What's the first thing out of the mailbag? 

[00:04:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm in a relationship with a polyamorous man who is married to a bisexual wife. They have an open marriage and she is openly seeking a girlfriend. I am currently his only other partner. There's open communication among all three of us. I have saved and emailed myself a Facebook post with a timestamp where she stated that she knows about my relationship with her husband and accepts me. Thanks to your advice to always document, document, document. I'm not sexually involved with her. I see it more as a sister-wife situation. The thing is I live in North Carolina where his wife could file for alienation of affection. If she did, I could lose my house, my car, and any other assets to her, I could also lose my job and he could lose his. The Facebook posts make a very loose case that she's okay with our relationship, but what else can I do to legally protect myself if for some reason she ever turns negative and tries to claim alienation of affection or something similar? Signed, Trying to Ride the Poly Trolley Without Getting Naughty, Sloppy, or Melancholy.

[00:05:09] Jordan Harbinger: Did you just wrap that? I feel like you just wrapped that. 

[00:05:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: I forgot to spit some bars on Feedback Friday. 

[00:05:15] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, all right. Well, fair enough. Anyway, it looks good. Super interesting question. We've heard from poly folks on the show before, but I don't think we've ever talked about the legal considerations involved in polyamory, which for those of you, who've never even heard that word. What would you say, Gabe? Is that just like people in more than one relationship at once or in one big relationship with multiple people at once? 

[00:05:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think it's basically the practice of engaging in several, multiple romantic, usually sexual relationships, but with the consent of all the people involved. So nobody's being kept in the dark. It's not like their affairs going on. It's like all out in the open, more than one partner.  

[00:05:53] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So this is definitely a timely topic, especially as polyamory and open relationships and ethical non-monogamy more broadly. This is becoming more and more popular. And this is really a legal question. So your best believe we hit up our boy Corbin Payne, excellent attorney and friend of the show to make sure we had a good grasp of the relevant statutes here. So, first of all, alienation of affection, alienation of affection is a type of law. It's actually a common law tort, but we don't need to go down that rabbit hole. I'm having PTSD flashbacks from law school right now. This is a law that allows a spouse to bring an action against a third party who has damaged their marriage. It's part of a larger class of so-called heart balm torts, which are civil actions that a person can bring to seek monetary compensation for the end of a romantic relationship.

[00:06:42] Think of it like a homewrecker statute, which is something I totally just made up by the way. So don't try and get Google that now. That might sound silly and outdated. And I think that it is frankly, which is why alienation of affection towards they're actually really rare these days. Most States have repealed them so that they can avoid contentious lawsuits and reflect the progress that we've made gender wise in our society in the past a hundred years, but six States still have them on the books, including North Carolina, where you live. And in the state of North Carolina, there actually have been some pretty hefty awards granted in cases like this. Even though they can be vague and hard to prove sometimes just and usually in fact, just the threat of an alienation of affection suit that can be enough to create leverage during divorce negotiations, since court documents are public record. Most people don't want a lawsuit like this tarnishing their relationship, their reputation.

[00:07:33] My guess is there are a decent number of people out there who've gotten to keep the timeshare or the boat or the dog or the custody of the kids, because their ex didn't want them to sue the person that they were getting it on with during their marriage. So you're not totally wrong to be concerned here. These lawsuits, there are real headaches and sometimes not often, but sometimes they do become a problem for people. But here's the thing if someone were to sue you under this law, they have to prove three things. One, that there was a loving and affectionate relationship between the married spouses in the first place. Two, that that relationship has been destroyed and three, that it has been destroyed by the wrongful and intentional actions of a third party, so you. 

[00:08:15] And as C Payne explained in cases like this, you always want to be able to use any defenses under a law where provided either by statute or by legal opinions issued by court. So like precedent, we call that, right? Other judges have said, "Hey, you can't use this. You can use that." Also, you want to be able to point to any one of these three parts of the law. I just mentioned and say that at least one of them, or more ideally, doesn't apply in your case. So that Facebook posts that you mentioned. That's probably going to be very useful here. It was super smart of you to document that simply put, if your sister-wife is consenting to an intimate relationship between you and her husband, then she doesn't get to turn around and call this alienation of affection. And there is a larger legal concept at work here. A fundamental principle of lawsuits is that you can't cause your own injury and then turn around and sue somebody else for it. That's a solid defense in any case where any injury is alleged. 

[00:09:12] So I would definitely continue documenting as much as you can, and maybe even create other opportunities for you to document even more evidence. That this whole arrangement is on the up and up. Now, we don't have a full handle on the relationship between you and this woman, but if you're comfortable around each other, it might be worth discussing this whole situation with her on the record, having a conversation about how she and her husband had the open marriage talk. That's how they keep the spark alive between them, how liberated their relationship is. That's a pretty solid insurance policy for you. If this could be done over email, that would be ideal, but even a text or a DM would suffice. You don't even need to obtain a smoking gun statement from her. Like, "I hereby give you full permission to bang my husband," right? You don't need that. All you need is something that shows that she was aware of your relationship with her husband and that she was open to it. Like if you told her that you and her husband were going away for the weekend and she's like, "Fun. That sounds nice. I'm going to go shopping." That's good evidence. 

[00:10:10] That way, if she ever did bring an alienation of affection suit, it would undermine any argument that your actions were what destroyed their marriage. And look, if you guys have an open relationship, or I should say if you guys have a good relationship, as good as you say you do because I don't want to confuse the terms here. Maybe you do this even more directly. After you all talk about your arrangement, you could send her a follow-up email saying, "Listen, I appreciate your willingness to talk about my relationship with your husband today. Honestly, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the polyamorous life and you were super helpful today. Thank you." Something like that and then summarize the salient points of your conversation. Like, "Good thing that you are so understanding about me having a romantic relationship with your husband and us going on trips together. Thank you." If the wife does not contradict your email and later tries to argue, "Hey, this is a misrepresentation." I don't think anyone's going to believe her. 

[00:11:02] Gabe, if I sent you an email and said, "Hey, by the way, thanks for telling me on the phone that I can sleep with your girlfriend." And then we didn't talk about it at all. I would fully expect to get some kind of response from you that says, "Wait, what are you talking about? I don't get it, I don't get the joke here." 

[00:11:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I'd be like, "What the hell? What are you talking about? You call me for advice about how to set up a microphone." 

[00:11:20] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. So any reasonable person would including a judge and a jury. And if she does respond in the affirmative, you're basically golden, but I would try to compel a response. You don't want her to claim that you never sent the email or it was caught in her spam folder. You never had the conversation. "I would have replied if I'd seen that email," right? You want her to respond and then you basically, you have a receipt. So it's great that you documented the Facebook post. I would keep doing that as much as you can. And any written communications about all this between you and her husband, emails, DMs, posts, anything at all, I would save that too. If he's gone into great detail on his own about how cool his wife is with you too, that's going to help undermine any claim that you were intentionally trying to destroy their good affection and their marriage that was all on the up and up. When you pair that with the message from the wife, it really bolsters both arguments. 

[00:12:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point. This guy and his wife, they're basically creating her defense, her hypothetical future defense for her as long as she documents it. 

[00:12:21] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Yeah. 

[00:12:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: In addition to all of that, Corbin's final recommendation was this, if you can get any information on the wife seeking a girlfriend of her own, that would be a great defense too. Now, look, that might be harder evidence to grab since it's not like people usually throw that kind of thing up on the gram or whatever. But here's the thing, since the social stigma attached to open relationships, since that's still fairly big, it's not uncommon for polyamorous people to look for partners outside the marriage on dating apps, websites, stuff like that. And look, I know this is a little bit sketchy. I know it feels a tiny bit gross, but it might be worth creating a dummy account on the relevant apps and seeing if she's on there. If she is grab a screenshot. As Corbyn pointed out, nothing kills a claim of adultery, quite like evidence of one's own extramarital activities.

[00:13:05] So a screenshot of her dating profile, that would show any destruction of affection between this guy and his wife. That that was as much her fault as it was yours. And honestly, it just makes her look hypocritical in general. And judges and juries, they really don't like hypocrites. And if you need any more detailed advice or you just want some extra peace of mind, you can always book a call with an attorney in your home state. Probably a personal injury attorney may be a family attorney, ideally both. They'll be able to give you a more detailed view on this weird law. Give you any extra tips on how you should protect yourself. 

[00:13:37] So that's our advice. I got to say, though, it sounds like you're in the best version of a polyamorous relationship where all the parties are communicating openly, communicating fairly no one's being kept in the dark or harboring any secret resentments, but you never know what could happen, right? People change. Relationships evolve. Maybe one day, your sister-wife, she turns on her husband for some unrelated reason, and she decides to get back at him through you. Or maybe she gets into financial problems and she decides that the easiest way to solve her problems would be going after the woman who's sleeping with her husband, or I don't know you and her husband, maybe you start to really fall in love and he starts to pull away from her a little bit. And suddenly she goes from super cool and open-minded to jealous and vengeful. Right? You just don't know what could happen in a romantic relationship, especially when there are three different parties involved each with their own unpredictable interests.

[00:14:22] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Agreed human affairs, man. Hard to predict, very volatile. So yeah, I wouldn't stay up at night worrying about getting hit with an alienation of affection lawsuit. But I do think that it is smart to protect you yourself. No need to get obsessed. Don't let this die documentation thing take over your whole life. Ruin your relationship. Make things super weird all the time. Just save any relevant screenshots and emails. Store them locally and in the cloud that way you never lose them. Try to get as much confirmation of this open relationship status and the whole thing as possible. And that's really all you can do. Beyond that, keep communicating openly with your partner and his wife and stay on good terms with her. That's probably the best insurance. That's the best thing you can do. Good luck. 

[00:15:06] You're listening to Feedback Friday here on The Jordan Harbinger Show. We'll be right back. 

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[00:16:29] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Brand Crowd. Brand Crowd is an awesome logo maker tool that can help you make an amazing logo design online. Using high quality handcrafted designs, Brand Crowd takes her business name and industry and generates thousands of custom logos for you in seconds. Here's how it works. Go to brandcrowd.com/jordan. Enter the name of your business and an option to include keywords you'd like to incorporate into the logo. So you can put like Jordan fitness, because you all know I'm such a fitness guy. Anyway, it's fun to try it out for free. You enter your company name, your name, whatever. See what comes up and it'll match the keywords and the graphics and the name and the graphics. So within seconds, Brand Crowd makes thousands of logos for you. Just go try it out. It's kind of fun. Browse the logos, edit the font, colors, layout, whatever as many as you like for free, you save them. Once you find the perfect logo, you can buy it and download all the logo files. You need to run your business so you can do it for t-shirts to business cards. Anything goes. It's really a cool little tool they've created here. Check out brandcrowd.com/jordan, B-R-A-N-D-C-R-O-W-D.com/jordan. To learn more, play with the tool for free and get 60 percent off Brand Crowd's premium logo pack. 

[00:17:40] And now back to Feedback Friday on The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[00:17:45] All right, what's next? 

[00:17:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey Jordan and Gabe. My 26-year-old brother and his girlfriend of almost a decade are welcoming their first child later this year. This is not only their first child, but also the first grandchild in the family. Most of us could not be more excited, but my 62-year-old father, he's having a more difficult time accepting this change. He's never been a huge fan of my brother's girlfriend. He thinks she's lazy because she doesn't really help out with household chores. Doesn't really cook or grocery shop and contributes very little financially. Personally, I don't think any of that stuff matters as long as my brother is happy, which he appears to be. But this dynamic is not typical in our family, which is why my dad struggles with it. He worries that she won't step up when the baby comes. He also has it in his head that my brother's girlfriend trapped him into this situation. But my brother, he says differently. Now that might be brother and his girlfriend have announced the pregnancy on social media. My dad has seen her parents' reaction and how they were told. He feels hurt, that he was told last and doesn't feel that the way he was told was well thought out and planned like everyone else's was. He received a sonogram on a piece of scrapbook paper while everyone else got personalized items, like a coffee mug, a onesie, and a baseball. I've told both my dad and my brother that they need to communicate about all of this before the baby comes, because I don't want the baby to be born into this drama. They have a very close, sometimes too close relationship, but they are both terrible at communicating. My brother is afraid of my dad, because my dad can be so intense. Sometimes I've offered to be a mediator in their conversation, but I'm not sure that's a good idea either. What would you do in my situation? Signed, Family Drama with the Baby Mama. 

[00:19:20] Jordan Harbinger: All right. Well, this is a tough situation and I can definitely see why all of this is so stressful for you guys. Before we dig in here, I just got to say, Gabe, there's something objective really funny about a 62-year-old man getting worked up that he wasn't told about the pregnancy in a special enough way. Like, "All you guys did was show me a miraculous photograph of my very first grandchild. You didn't get me a matching onesie that says grandpa's trusty sidekick." 

[00:19:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. 

[00:19:43] Jordan Harbinger: Like what was going on, buddy? 

[00:19:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. Totally. Also. He's not exactly thrilled that they're having a kid. Right? So it's like, "I didn't even want you to have a baby, but also you didn't tell me you're having a baby in a special enough way."

[00:19:55] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Like that old joke. Like, "The food at this place is terrible and such small portions." 

[00:20:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. 

[00:20:02] Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, at first, I thought this was, I have a funny contradiction, but now that I'm thinking about it, maybe it's actually meaningful. Your dad, obviously he has concerns about your brother's girlfriend. He's not totally sure how to feel about the baby, but he also very clearly wants to be loved and included the same way that her family is. So maybe he's just being cranky and needy by insisting that he get the same treatment as everyone else. Or maybe he's being cranky and needy because he actually does want to be part of the baby's life. He actually really is excited or could be excited, which is an encouraging sign. 

[00:20:34] But what is clear is that your dad, he probably has a lot of complicated feelings about your brother, about his wife, maybe even about himself and because he struggles to communicate those feelings. It's just coming out as a more generalized anger, a more nebulous concern. At age 62, if you don't know how to process that stuff, that's daunting. Plus, I mean, look, I don't want to speculate here, but your dad, he might even have a point about your brother's girlfriend. It sounds like she doesn't contribute as much as your brother does, even you acknowledge this. So I kind of understand why your dad's concerned about how she'll act when the baby arrives.

[00:21:09] Maybe that's concerning for him because it is atypical for your family or maybe that's concerning because it's actually concerning. She does sound a little bit lazy to me, frankly. That's all I'm going to say about that because it's totally irrelevant and beside the point. But there's also the idea that she trapped your brother, which again, it sounds like she didn't according to the brother, but maybe given the way she behaves in general. It's not totally crazy to wonder if he's really in the driver's seat here. And if he isn't, yeah, I can understand why dad is upset here. Even if he can be a little intense sometimes. I guess what I'm saying is I kind of feel for the guy, even if he's being a bit of a car McGinley old Dick right now. 

[00:21:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: I got to say, yeah, I do too. On some level. I mean, how do you not worry about your child when you don't fully approve of their partner. That's a lot to ask. 

[00:21:55] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it really is, especially in a family like this one. They sound like they're pretty enmeshed in each other's lives. Like she said, sometimes they're too close. And I mean, as a dad, I don't know if I could completely accept my son walking into a problematic situation with his partner.

[00:22:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a tough pill to swallow for sure. Although to be fair, maybe their dad is just mad that all they got was that sonogram. And he's using that to tear down his daughter-in-law in every department. Maybe he'd be more accepting if they just got him a mug that said, "Don't talk to me until I've had my coffee. I'm Grumpy."  

[00:22:27] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. Does this mug actually exist? Because if it doesn't, we got to make it and send this guy one and then say it's from the baby's mother. I think we just solved this problem. Do we just totally solve this problem? I think we did. 

[00:22:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yup. Done next. 

[00:22:41] Jordan Harbinger: All right. Anyway, I think what we're saying here is dad and brother both have some legit points here. No one's entirely correct, but no one's entirely wrong either. And you're right. Your dad has a right to be concerned, but ultimately, it's none of his business how his son and his son's girlfriend divvy up the responsibilities in their family. It's their relationship. He has to let them figure that out, even if he finds it distressing somehow. And if he has concerns, he needs to learn how to articulate them. He's 62 freaking years old. Hopefully, they can work them out. 

[00:23:10] So to answer your question, what are you supposed to do here? Well, if you really want to see your dad and brother getting along better and hopefully spare the baby from being born into a family where there's this low-key drama tension going on, then I would encourage them to start talking. But since they have a hard time communicating on their own, I like your idea of mediating a conversation between the two of them. And I know that that sounds a little daunting for you too. But you do seem like the most objective person in this situation, the more level-headed person. You can play a neutral role here, I think. And that could be very helpful. So if you feel comfortable doing this and you should talk to your dad and brother individually first and get their buy-in to have this conversation. Then you can sit them down for a couple hours one day and help them talk. 

[00:23:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Agree. And once you guys do sit down, I would set the stage by telling your dad and your brother that you love them both a lot, that you're not here to take sides. You're only here as a daughter and as a sister who wants to help them get along as well as possible. Tell them that you know, that there's been some tension around your brother's girlfriend, around the arrival of the baby, that you know, that this topic is kind of uncomfortable. Maybe you even say that it's a little uncomfortable for you too, so that they feel like you're all in the situation together. But then you just want to give them a chance to talk about everything before the baby arrives. And then I would invite each of them to share what they're thinking, how they're feeling, what they're going through. Since your dad finds it harder to communicate in general, you might want to invite your brother to go first, give him five, 10 minutes to state his position. Don't let your dad interrupt here. And once he's done, then you can invite your dad to respond, given the same opportunity, the exact same treatment. And at some point they'll start to dig into the problems between them and things might get a little bit heated. They might get a little emotional, that's okay. That's actually good. 

[00:24:50] Stay calm, stay neutral. If your dad flies off the handle, if he isn't really engaging with what your brother says, you can say something like, "Dad, I know this is hard, but do you hear what Mark is saying right now? He's saying that he really did want to have a baby. Do you think you can take him at his word," something like that. And if your brother starts dismissing your dad out of hand, you can say something like, "Okay. Okay. But Mark, can you understand why dad might've been hurt about the whole sonogram thing? I think what he's saying is that he felt left out." You know, that kind of thing. Let them respond, keep validating their feelings, keep asking questions, just keep the conversation going. Your goal here isn't to prove that one of them is right, even though you do kind of side with your brother, which I totally understand. Your job is just to make them listen to each other. Ultimately, it's up to them to decide where they want to land in their relationship, but you can help them get to a place that's fair. That's peaceful all around. 

[00:25:36] My hope is that they can resolve these issues before the baby arrives. But if they can't, then I hope that they at least arrive at a place of acceptance. That's probably the only stance you should take here, by the way, wanting them to accept each other, whether they're right or wrong. If your dad can accept that your brother wants to have a child with this woman and that their relationship is not his business, I would call that a win. And if your brother can accept that your dad has his concerns, but that he still deserves to be a part of their life, then that's progress too. And sometimes that's the best outcome you can ask for it, right? Since your dad and your brother, they're very different guys. Getting one or both of them to concede here that might be impossible, but getting them to accept each other, that's much more doable. And it might not all happen in one conversation. It might be several conversations. It might take a little bit of time. So be patient, stay available to them. I do think it'll be worth it. 

[00:26:19] Jordan Harbinger: That's great advice, Gabe, and that's exactly the right way to handle it. It is a big role for her to take on, but I actually think she's in a great position to fill it. My only other advice, keep being a good friend to everyone in this situation. I know it's probably hard, but the upside is that you can be a part of everyone's life here. You can bring them together. So keep being kind to your dad, stay close to your brother, be supportive of his girlfriend. And definitely be a great aunt or uncle to the baby, especially if things between your dad and brother don't get better. When the baby's born, they're going to need some love from you too. And maybe over time, you can subtly encourage your dad to be cooler to your brother and his girlfriend. Maybe you can even invite your brother to include your dad more often. I wouldn't be surprised if the baby helps heal a lot of these wounds and pulls everyone back together.

[00:27:03] There's nothing like a baby to make a grandparent want to come around and be happy. And I know in our case, we had a great relationship with my in-laws and my parents. There was no drama at all, but we went from seeing my in-laws, two to three times a week to at least once per day, usually more now, which is great. I mean, look, it actually eases any sort of issues because you're dealing with people so regularly and you're focused on the baby, not your petty drama. So a lot of the other stuff I think is going to sort of melt away. And like I said, it sounds like your dad actually is excited to be a grandfather. He just wants to feel like they want him involved as much as he does. So we're sending you guys good vibes here. Congrats on the addition to the family. 

[00:27:44] All right. What's next? 

[00:27:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I am a woman working in a male dominated business in a small city. Throughout my career. I've been faced with uncomfortable situations where I'm dealing with men who ranged from annoying to creepy. I've always felt that I have to act cool and put up with them because I don't want to get the reputation of being hard to work with. And I don't want to make it awkward to see these people out and about, and while representing clients. I often receive calls, texts, and emails from men. I've worked with wanting to catch up or go for lunch. I'm happy to take them up on the offer when they're people I enjoy working with. But sometimes these requests come from the ones who I'd rather jump out the window than spend a minute with. Sometimes they even get emails saying, "Let's catch up. I can tell you're ignoring me," but then they'll inevitably turn up at a professional situation. So I have to remain cooperative. 

[00:28:27] Jordan Harbinger: Cringe. 

[00:28:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Super cringe. 

[00:28:30] So, how do I ignore these guys without painting myself into a corner where I'm the B word, making it harder the next time I run into them? Thanks for your help. Signed, Backslap with these Chaps and Protect my Pap or Handicap this Crap and Avoid a Mishap. 

[00:28:43] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So you're definitely rapping today. It's not just my imagination. 

[00:28:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: I am, but a humble vessel for the sign-offs, Jordan. 

[00:28:51] Jordan Harbinger: Also though, ooh, this is a tricky one, man. Unfortunately, this is something that women obviously deal with a lot, especially in a male-dominated industry and especially in a small city. I don't know what the deal is. I'd like to think in the last few years, men have become more sensitive to these dynamics. I mean, emailing a woman saying, "Let's catch up. I can tell you're ignoring me." Like read the room, dude. Take the L move on. But the guys in this woman's industry, they don't seem to care. And maybe the reason they don't care is because they know they can get away with this cringy BS or maybe it's because she works in this relationship driven business and that requires her to be diplomatic. 

[00:29:28] So she basically has to have a high tolerance for unwanted attention, or she's not going to be able to do her job, which really sucks. Let's acknowledge that she can't fully assert her boundaries or be totally upfront. About how she feels because the costs to her career are too high. That's literally the definition of a power imbalance. It's not one that she can easily correct. It's just woven into her whole job, her industry, arguably the entire world. It's not like one person can fix that overnight. 

[00:29:56] So what do you do here? Well, let's talk through your options. Option one, you bite the bullet. You agree to grab sushi with these creeps to keep up appearances. The upside, you don't compromise your reputation and your relationships. The downside, you waste two freaking hours with somebody rather jump out of the window than hang out with. You feel resentful. You feel annoyed, maybe you've compromised your integrity a little bit. Option two, you tell these creepers you're not interested in hanging out socially. The upside there, you protect your time, your sanity, you feel more true to yourself, you're more in control. The downside, you risk compromising the relationship. Maybe, maybe you get a reputation as being difficult. It wouldn't be the first time this has happened to anyone, especially a woman in a so-called male-dominated industry. 

[00:30:40] So either way you pay a price, which again, totally unfair. And that is something that guys, men generally speaking, don't even have to think about, let alone obsess over with every single interaction. You know, if I don't want to hang out with somebody or do business with somebody, I don't have to make up a reason. Otherwise, I'm a cold fish. So I think that there might be a third way here. What if when one of these annoying guys asks you to hang out, you come up with a standard response that helps you walk this line a little bit better. Something like, "Thank you so much for the invitation. I'd love to catch up, but the truth is I'm totally underwater with work right now. And I'm forcing myself to be more disciplined about my time outside the house. But if you want to do a quick call, I'm always happy to jump on the phone," right? So you turn the fun thing into a freaking meeting and something like that. Something that avoids the dreaded lunch, but keeps the relationship alive on your terms. 

[00:31:29] If this is one of your clients, or he's connected to one of your clients, you can always add something like, "Sorry, I can't do lunch right now. I'm totally at capacity handling your account these days." That way you're declining their invitation so that you can be an even better colleague to them, which is going to make it harder for them to present you. Now, don't get me wrong. They may still manage to present you, but you're making it harder.

[00:31:51] And look again, I know how messed up it is that you even have to do this stupid ass dance, even with these responses, you still got to tread lightly, carefully. You still have to manage egos. In a perfect world, you'd just be able to say, "Thanks for the invite. Jeff, not interested." And Jeff would be evolved enough to not hold that against you and talk crap about you behind your back and cost you deals. But in this imperfect world that we live in, you may just have to do this dance sometimes just in the name of diplomacy. And I know a lot of women who've been in this exact same situation and this kind of response has worked well for them. So I would give these scripts a try and see what happens. 

[00:32:31] Treat it like a little experiment. See what the results are. You can always calibrate your response down the line. And who knows? Maybe you'll find that declining these invitations, maybe it doesn't hurt your reputation as much as you think. Maybe it just feels like it will, since you've never been this direct before about your boundaries. So it's intimidating to think about doing it in the abstract. 

[00:32:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hmm, good point. Sometimes we imagine the worst-case scenario when we think about doing something in a different way, since we have no data to work with yet. We're just flying blind. So our minds want to protect us from that worst-case scenario, which in your case would be getting a bad reputation, being frozen out of professional opportunities. But the likelihood of that actually happening, Jordan, especially if she's good at what she does, which it sounds like she is, that's probably much lower than she thinks. But anyway, if you do start doing this, the other thing that could happen is you become more comfortable drawing these boundaries and you just get better and better at politely declining these invitations.

[00:33:22] And as you get more comfortable with that, maybe you work your way up to being more direct. Eventually you might say something like, "Thanks so much for the invitation, but I really need to focus on my work right now. Please know that I'm absolutely available to you as a colleague, as a friend. You can call me anytime you can email me anytime." Or if you're actually open to hanging out with one of these guys, but you don't want it to be weird. You might say something like, "Listen, Jeff, I'm totally down to grab a bite, but before we do, and I really hope I'm not being presumptuous here, but I just want to let you know that we'd be grabbing lunch as friends. If that's cool with you, I'm in. If not, I completely understand. It won't change anything about our working relationship."

[00:33:56] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, good one. I like that. I feel like that's a really nice way to say exactly what she means without being cruel or self-important, which is what she seems to be afraid of here. 

[00:34:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. It's a way to be true to herself without compromising the relationship too much. 

[00:34:09] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. In fact, it's almost like she's building the relationship by putting it that way. She's basically saying, "I know you have your own interests here, but I have enough respect for you to tell you how I really feel. And I'm still interested in developing a friendship with you if you are or a working relationship with you if you are." Although how sweet would it feel to just be like, "Dude, stop asking me out. I'm out of your freaking league, man. What are you even thinking? Also we work together, gross." That would be just so nice. 

[00:34:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm sure I feel amazing. And I'm sure that's exactly what she's thinking, but she obviously can't say that. She has to put it into her corporate workplace/male-ego translator first. So she doesn't send Jeff into a thermonuclear temper-tantrum or whatever. But I think this new approach could really work wonders for her because in her mind, up until now, it's been this binary thing. Either, "I lead these guys on and I protect the relationship," or, "I reject these guys and I burn all my bridges." She hasn't found a way to thread that needle yet because threading that needle, it would require her to be both firm and open at the same time. But what's interesting is, with a response like this, she's actually communicating a certain degree of respect for these guys, right? A certain amount of faith that they can meet her as an equal on the same plane.

[00:35:17] And yes, of course, we're, we're assuming here that all the men she rejects are evolved enough to handle that, that they won't be petty or vindictive. We all know that that's not always the case. There will be a few fragile egos who take their business elsewhere, or I don't know, a couple of douchey guys who shut her out or whatever, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these guys, maybe even the majority of them, if they actually respond pretty well to her, especially since most guys they're not used to being taken seriously enough to hear the truth from a woman who can say, "No, thank you, but still want to have a good relationship." 

[00:35:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I, I agree. You know, being this honest with people, it goes against all of our instincts to be nice and key things on an even keel. But the truth is they both benefit from this kind of openness. 

[00:35:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. So if you learn to say something like that before you hang out with someone, I think your interactions with these guys could start to look very different. Not only will you avoid these painful lunches, you might actually find that your relationships improve. Good old, Jeff might hear what you say and go, "Wow. Okay. That stings a little bit, but you know, I hear you. I appreciate that you're not making me feel like a total a-hole here. Thank you for that." And he might say, "Thanks for letting me know where we stand. We can skip lunch," or he might say, "I totally get it, let's grab lunch as colleagues. It's all good." And then when you do sit down with him at PF Chang's or whatever, he'll probably be more likely to view you the way you want to be seen as a professional, as a friend. And that could open up a whole new kind of relationship. That's more fair to these guys and way less stressful for you. And then you can keep building the relationship and that direction.

[00:36:40] And look, obviously every situation is unique. If the CMO of a huge potential client asks you to lunch and it's kind of ambiguous as to what the tone will be. I would not hit him back the first time and go, "Sorry, Clyde. Just not interested in grabbing lunch socially, but you know, feel free to send me an RFP." Obviously, you still have to socialize as part of your job, which means you'll still end up in these awkward situations from time to time. That's just the unfortunate reality. But after that first meeting, if you feel like things are getting uncomfortably ambiguous again, then you can always fall back on one of these scripts that we've been talking about. You know, something like, "Hey Clyde, I'm really happy that we got to sit down and talk about your marketing strategy. Before we grabbed dinner again, I just want to say. I'm coming as an account manager who cannot wait to help you guys develop this campaign. Just wanted to tell you that in advance so that there are no wires getting crossed," something like that.

[00:37:24] Again, if it's appropriate, if you feel like the timing is right. You'll have to use your instincts and your experience there. Maybe even confer with your colleagues, your bosses, whenever a situation like this affects the whole thing. 

[00:37:36] Jordan Harbinger: Solid advice, Gabe, she can't eliminate this situation entirely, but she can get better at preventing it, managing it. Also one last pro-tip here, this occurred to me. If you have an assistant working with you, you can accept someone's invitation to lunch, and then. Let them know you're going to be bringing your assistant to take notes on the meeting, right? This way they know it's not a date because you brought Billy the intern over here, snacking on a freaking club sandwich at the end of the table, hammering away on his iPad Pro while you guys talk shop. Nothing says this isn't a date. Quite like Billy using his 37th napkin to wipe mustard off his face. 

[00:38:15] So I'm not saying this is always going to be easy. It won't always be smooth sailing. You might find yourself having to get a little brutal sometimes. You might break a few hearts, piss off a few bros. Sadly, you're probably going to have to navigate these egos for the rest of your career, because that's how it'd be around here by now. But if you're truly great at what you do, then it'll be a lot harder for these guys to hold it against you. And I guess that's my final piece of advice. Keep working hard to be amazing. If you're a bad-ass in your career, if you're undeniable at what you do, it won't matter if a few narcissistic tone-deaf men-children think you're kind of a bitch for not grabbing dim sum with them. Like who cares? 

[00:38:53] Same goes for men too. We all need to be great, as great as we can be at what we do so that our work starts to speak for itself. And we don't have to manage the opinions of a bunch of jabronies just so we can stay in people's good graces. But your reputation around the caliber of your work, the quality of your relationships, your personal style, that'll protect you from being dragged by any Neanderthal who can't take a respectful no, for an answer. So good luck. 

[00:39:23] This is The Jordan Harbinger Show, and this is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back. 

[00:39:28] This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help online counseling. Many people think therapy is for crazy and/or weak people. I could not disagree more. It's interesting people don't think twice to seek medical help for health related problems while most of us anyway, but consider seeking help for emotional problems to just be a sign of weakness. And I think that's such a load. To be honest, it's so much easier to grab the closest pint of ice cream. I understand that you can drink your sorrows away. You can pretend like your problems don't exist. It just takes a hell of a lot of strength. To face the problem and ask for help, but Better Help online counseling makes it easy. You fill out a questionnaire, hook you up in 48 hours with a counselor. Video sessions, phone sessions, you can chat or text your therapist all from the comfort of your own home. Everything is confidential. If you're unhappy with your counselor, which you know, it happens, you can request a new one at any time, no additional charge. You got to find somebody you click with. Never drive across town, never drive and find parking. You don't have to sit in an awkward ass waiting room again. And Jordan Harbinger Show listeners get 10 percent off their first month at betterhelp.com/jordan. 

[00:40:26] Jen Harbinger: Visit better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan. And join the over one million people who've taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced Better Help professional. 

[00:40:35] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by LifeLock. As the occurrence of identity scams continues to increase, more people are looking for ways to protect themselves from cybercriminals and you should be too. 60 percent of Americans believe it is likely that identity theft will cause them a financial loss in the next year. And it doesn't have to be like someone stole your credit cards or opened up new ones. It can be any kind of cybercrime. You got to understand how this stuff works. Your information is on the Internet. You are at risk for this, some of us more than others, your finances, your credit. I got LifeLock. It's kind of like a little insurance policy for this. LifeLock detects a wide range of identity threats, like your social security number for sale on the dark web. If they detect your information has potentially been compromised, they'll send you an alert. You also have access to a dedicated restoration specialist if you become a victim. And what I like about that is that person will help you sort everything out because otherwise you're going to be working and taking care of your kids and trying to figure all that out and making phone calls and writing letters. No, thanks. Leave it to a pro. 

[00:41:33] Jen Harbinger: No one can prevent all identity theft or monitor all transactions at all businesses but you can keep what's yours with LifeLock Identity Theft Protection. Join now and save up to 25 percent off your first year at lifelock.com/jordan. That's lifelock.com/jordan for 25 percent off. 

[00:41:50] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored in part by Public Rec. It's been a year since I started living in sweatpants. I wish I were kidding, but I'm not. So now, I'm kind of a sweatpants connoisseur, sweatpants and lounge wear in general I might add, but they're not all made equal. With everything I own — in fact, this morning I dug through the pile of laundry to hunt down my favorite pants. And I always reach from my Public Rec's all day, everyday pants. Obviously, they knew what they were doing when they named these. It's what I wear literally all day, every day when I'm wearing pants at all, for that matter. They're amazing. They look good. They don't look like these raggedy, sweatpants, which you know what I'm talking about. They actually make me look sharp. They're breathable, so comfortable. They stretch. I can do squats in them. I don't have to worry about my butt ripping open. The pockets are zippered. You can keep your precious cargo secure. And even when we transitioned back to the so-called real world, I may never go back to wearing regular pants again. In fact, look, when, when I am forced to wear pants, I will wear my Public Recs. 

[00:42:43] Jen Harbinger: Public Rec rarely discounts, but right now they have an exclusive offer just for our listeners. Go to publicrec.com/harbinger and use promo code Harbinger to receive 10 percent off. That's Public Rec, R-E-C, and use our promo code Harbinger for 10 percent off.

[00:42:58] Jordan Harbinger: Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. Who doesn't love some good products and/or services? You can always visit jordanharbinger.com/deals for all the details on everybody that helps support the show. 

[00:43:11] And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday.

[00:43:15] All right, last but not least.

[00:43:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I've heard you talk on the show about your adventures in North Korea and China. You weren't always complimentary about those countries. You often talk about the dark sides of those places, the things you didn't like, you've even interviewed and talked about defectors and activists and stuff like that. Are you ever worried that North Korean agents are going to track you down? Would you ever go back to China with all the shade you throw at the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party? Let me know what you think. Signed, Looking over my Shoulder on Your Behalf. 

[00:43:43] Jordan Harbinger: This is a good question. It's something I've been asking myself a lot lately. Basically, North Korea, I'm not worried at all. I wouldn't go back though. Probably not a great idea because I've done some exposés and interviews with defectors. Like they might not care, but they might also care. Do I want to roll the dice on that? Not especially. I can't wait to go when the regime ends and the country opens up, I think that's going to be amazing. 

[00:44:05] The truth is we're not, you and I, we're not nearly threatening enough for the DPRK for North Korea to risk coming after us abroad. Also their capabilities abroad are pretty limited. When they go after people, they've got to expend a lot of capital and they bring a lot of unwanted attention on themselves. Going after us when we're not really doing much to them, it's not worth it. I'm also not hanging around Southeast Asia, being the brother to Kim Jong-un, like the last guy who they tracked down and murdered. That whole wild tale, that's chronicled in the documentary that you and I recommended a few months back. It's called Assassins. I highly recommend it. We'll link to it in the show notes. Basically, they tricked these women into killing him. It's a fascinating tale. 

[00:44:44] China. I do worry about it a bit, especially since China is giving some podcasters and YouTube there's real problems these days. If you follow my friends, laowhy86 and serpentza on YouTube. We'll link to those guys in the show notes. So you can follow those guys on YouTube and a lot of you do. Those guys always take abuse from the CCP nationalists, Wumao, which are like Internet commoners or trolls, agents of the intelligence services. I know some other folks that are being consistently harassed by Chinese intelligence for talking about similar things of what we cover here on the show.

[00:45:15] In fact, one time they tried to trick a prominent friend of mine into going to a hotel with some girl who was posing as a journalist, but was also like scantily clad and hot. She was DM-ing him, I think on Instagram or whatever, he knew better he's married. So he didn't bite. And the girl might've been real. But what we were thinking is you're going to show up to this hotel, she's going to try to seduce you, whether you give in or not, they're going to get some videotape and they're going to be like, "We're going to show everyone, probably your wife, your family, whatever." They would've just blackmailed him or something like that. Super gross, definitely unsettling. He got referred to the FBI and they were like, "Yep. This is like standard intelligence, especially CCP intelligence, playbook." Like they were not surprised at all. And they're monitoring this. 

[00:46:01] We've also had guests on the show. Dan David comes to mind, he's the investor and a whistleblower activist, short seller. He's an expert on corruption and fraud in China, or at least the investment side of it. He talked about how his phone gets tapped, their office computers have systems intrusions, stuff like that all the time. He knows it's China because the FBI told him it's China. So yeah, this is a concern. And Dan David, fascinating guy that was episode 476, by the way. Intelligence agencies, also they tend to contact people who are being tracked or threatened by foreign intelligence services because the FBI often knows about it and you can protect yourself better. If you know, you're being targeted, the FBI tells you, and then you're starting to get mysterious, seductive DMs. You know, you go, okay, this is what this is. 

[00:46:49] I've even gotten calls from the FBI with the like, "Hey FYI, nothing to panic about. We have reason to believe foreign governments may be monitoring some of your accounts. So just make sure you're not putting really sensitive information on your computer or on your phone or whatever, secure your information." So I'm pretty careful about that. I'm more security conscious than most people because of my personal history in the diplomatic Corps or the security space. And because when you're an attorney on Wall Street, attorney anywhere, but Wall Street, especially when we had access to all kinds of financial information. You are keenly aware that nothing is ever truly off the record or deleted for good. 

[00:47:28] So I do worry a little. I'd have to think hard about whether to go back to China. I'd have to have a really good reason for going, just because there's potential for them to be like, "Hey, why are you doing all this negative journalism against the CCP? Maybe you should stay here for a couple of weeks and talk with us, you know, have tea." My Chinese teachers, they call it, it's in Chinese, I'm trying to translate this. It's like basically they come and they check the water meter as the English equivalent. And they call that when the cops knock on your door at like 4:00 a.m. And they're like, "Hey, you posted some shit on the Internet that we didn't like." They either call it having tea or checking the water meter.

[00:48:02] And I don't want to have to talk myself out of any situations. Not that I'd necessarily be able to. Look, there are some totally innocent Canadians in prison in China right now. Because Canada detained somebody with CCP ties. She's under house arrest. She's a corporate bigwig. She's under house arrest, shopping online, working, watching freaking Netflix. And these two innocent Canadian guys are rotting away in a shitty prison cell in China. It's criminal, honestly. 

[00:48:29] Gabe, I don't know. What about you? Would you go back? 

[00:48:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: To North Korea, probably not, but less because I'm scared of what could happen and more, because I've been a bunch of times now and I kind of get it. I'm not sure what good it's doing me to keep going back. It's really hard to have new experiences in the DPRK. It's a little too Truman showy for me at this point. I also, you know, after you go two, three times and you kind of get it after that, you have to ask yourself, what am I really getting out of this experience? Am I supporting the regime in some weird roundabout way by continuing to come back here? Like not that we're funding their nuclear program or their death camps or anything like that, but do you really have to take a flight from China? That's overpriced. That's terrible. Just so you can go and spend another seven days looking at a statue that looks like all the 12 others, they showed you that day, not really. 

[00:49:11] China, more complicated. I would have to have a really good reason to go and I might leave my smartphone behind, maybe rent a local one, something like that. But I think the truth is there are a lot of exciting places to visit in the world. I'd rather go there at this point, 

[00:49:24] Jordan Harbinger: Like Turkmenistan, right? The North Korea of Central Asia.

[00:49:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah, that's right. There are so many other North Korea's that I want— 

[00:49:30] Jordan Harbinger: Eritrea, the North Korea of Africa. There's a lot of places that are overly repressive that will misuse our money, that we can go and patronize. Right? 

[00:49:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. Exactly. So maybe when, when everything opens up again, we'll go somewhere else. 

[00:49:42] Jordan Harbinger: Nothing like go into one of the most restrictive regimes in the world on vacation from the other most restrictive regime in the world, which is your f*cking living room. Like my kitchen, nothing, nothing is as restrictive as my kitchen. 

[00:49:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: From the panty-D to Pyongyang. 

[00:49:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. From the pandemic to Pyongyang. 

[00:50:01] I hope you enjoy that. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week. Go back and check out the guests from this week, David Kilgour on forced organ trafficking, speaking of repressive regimes and Rob Dyrdek entrepreneurs/skateboarder, more entrepreneur now.

[00:50:13] If you want to know how I managed to book all these amazing folks on the show, it's about systems, software, and tiny habits. Check out our Six-Minute Networking course, which is free. It's over on the Thinkific platform. jordanharbinger.com/course is where that's at. Dig the well, before you get thirsty. Once you need relationships, you are too late to build them. And these drills, they take a few minutes a day. Hence the name Six-Minute Networking. Ignore it at your own peril. I wish I knew this stuff a decade — well, I guess I knew it a decade ago. I wish I knew this stuff two decades ago. Where would I be now? jordanharbinger.com/course. 

[00:50:45] A link to the show notes for the episode is that jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. There's a video going up on our YouTube channel jordanharbinger.com/youtube. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or you can hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Twitter at @Gabe Mizrahi or on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi. 

[00:51:05] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Keep sending in your questions to friday@jordanharbinger.com. Our advice and opinions, and those of our guests are their own. I am a lawyer; I am not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on this show. And remember, we rise by lifting others, share the show with those you love. If you found this episode useful, share it with somebody else who can use the advice that we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. 

[00:51:45] We've got a trailer of our interview with Molly Bloom who ran infamous underground poker games in Los Angeles, in New York that were attended by A-listers mobsters and eventually landed her in hot water with the FBI. If you've seen the movie Molly's Game, you'll know she was a master of psychology and used a lot of the tactics and techniques that she taught us here on the show. Check out episode 120 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. 

[00:52:09] Molly Bloom: I went to LA and needed to get the first job that I could and got hired by this guy who was a pretty demanding boss. I was his personal assistant. He said, "I need you to serve drinks at my poker game." So I'm like, "Okay, great." And I bring my playlist and my cheese plate, and I'm thinking, you know, the players are going to be these overgrown frat boys, but then Ben Affleck walks in the room and Leo DiCaprio and a politician that is very well-recognized, and heads of studios, heads of banks. And all of a sudden, I had this light bulb moment that poker is my Trojan horse. I just need the control and have power over this game because it has this incredible hold over these people. Why do these guys with their access to anyone and anything come to this dingy basement to play this game? 

[00:52:57] Jordan Harbinger: What is the most money you've seen someone lose in one night? 

[00:53:01] Molly Bloom: A hundred million dollars.

[00:53:02] Jordan Harbinger: How did the mob get involved? 

[00:53:04] Molly Bloom: Around Christmas door open and this guy that I'd never seen before pushed his way and stuck up a gun in my mouth, then he'd beat the hell out of me. And he kind of gave me this speech about how, if I told anyone about this, or if I didn't comply, then they would take a trip to Colorado to see my family. Then the Feds got involved. And the first thing they did was they took all my money. I moved back to LA. I'd gotten a pretty decent job. 10 days later, I got a call in the middle of the night. "This is agent so-and-so from the FBI. You need to come out with your hands up." I walked into my hallway when my eyes adjusted to the high beam flashlights, I saw 17 FBI agents, semi-automatic weapons pointed at me.

[00:53:42] Jordan Harbinger: If you want to learn more about building rapport and generating the type of trust that Molly bloom needed to run her multi-million-dollar operation and hear about how it all came to an end check out episode 120 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:54:01] Jayson Waller: Jayson Waller here, host of your True Underdog podcast and YouTube channel. This is what we've got in store in our episodes. I'm going to tell stories of me growing up, being trailer parked, high school dropout, teen dad to opening three businesses that were successful. The latest business winning Inc 500, three out of four years, entrepreneur of the year, and it's a billion-dollar company. That's right. I'm going to give you tips, strategies, how to overcome adversity, how to be better, how to not stay in the mud. On top of that, on this show on the full episodes, we're going to have interviews with people who have overcome adversity, people that have been successful, but started with things in their way, things they had to overcome and struggle with. How did they get there? Check us out on iHeartRadio, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts. You can go to trueunderdog.com. Subscribe to everything, or go to YouTube at the True Underdog Podcast.