1098: Sanctioned Spank Sparks Sibling Split | Feedback Friday

1098: Sanctioned Spank Sparks Sibling Split | Feedback Friday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback, Friday producer, the Sugar in the Raw packet. Evening out the wonky leg of this tabletop with Savory Life conundrum. Gabriel Mizrahi on the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, such as organized crime figures, cold case homicide, investigators, gold smugglers, or astronauts. On Fridays though, we take listener letters, offer advice, compare Gabe to various ad hoc solutions to mundane everyday problems, while also subjecting you guys to multiple takes of our stupid little bits apparently.

So welcome to the first show of the year. Hope 2025 is off to a great start for all of you. This is another year full of joy and growth and healthy challenges and all that good stuff. Thank you for continuing to spend your Fridays with us. We really do hope to make your year as rich and entertaining and productive as possible, if that's your goal.

So Gabe, I was cleaning out some old boxes over the holidays and I came across a zippo lighter. I used to love Zippos when I was in high school and college. I don't know why.

[00:01:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, who didn't?

[00:01:16] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, okay. So that was a thing.

[00:01:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:01:17] Jordan Harbinger: We all go through the zippo phase. You do? Okay. And you like learn that trick where you put two fingers on top and the thumb of the bottom and it goes blinging and it flips open and it's like magic.

Like you're a pool hustler in the eighties. Totally. Yes. Like me and James Dean just hang out regularly. Yeah. Anyway, I came across this zippo lighter that I found in Vietnam, in the jungle while I was walking around with a guide near the tunnels that they have some of those tunnels that the Vietcong dug.

Do you know about these? I mean, I've heard loosely, but tell me, so for people who don't know the Vietcong, one of the ways the evaded, the US government was everything they could, they did it underground, literally. So they would dig these holes in the clay and they had kitchens, schools, bunking areas, armories tunnels that would go to different parts of the jungle so they could pop up, you know, in one part of a village or another part of the jungle or something like that, or escape during raids, and then come behind the enemy, which was us in the South Vietnamese, of course.

It was crazy. And so now those tunnels, despite it raining like crazy in Vietnam, they still exist. Some of them are maintained, some of 'em they dug out more. So fat ass tourists like me can crawl through them and they're miles and miles long. It's insane to think about. It's really nuts. And you can go in there.

And of course there's also stuff in there that you don't want to find, like weird bugs and snakes. But you can go in these tunnels. They're just unbelievable. This tunnel complex is just absolutely insane. They had their own water supplies, they ran electricity in there. It's just absolutely crazy. Anyway, I went there and I just got so into it that the guide who in the beginning told me how much he hated Americans was actually like, Hey, if you pay me like 40 extra dollars, I'll take you on a really cool hike.

And I was like, are you gonna kill me in the jungle? He's like, actually, the North Vietnamese killed my family, so I hate the Vietnamese as much as I hate the Americans. He was a complicated dude, but he was a little bit older than me, only a little, and his English was awesome. So he would tell me these really six stories and be like, are you having a good time?

And I'm like, I don't know about good time, but yeah. But that is the tour guide you want. Yeah, he was a little bit like messed up, like he wanted me to suffer. Yeah. Clearly telling me how Americans died in the gruesome ways and stuff. He showed me these pits where they would take like sharpened bamboo and put leaves over it.

So when you're walking you fall into it and you just bleed to death in this like pit. So he showed me some of these old pits that still existed. They don't have the sticks, they're just like little washed out holes now. And he's like, this is a pungy pit, or whatever they're called. And so I would be walking around and he's like, there's landmines around the outside, so don't go too far.

But you can walk here and ask me if you're not sure. So I was walking around with this guy for a few hours and I found a zippo lighter in the dirt, clay, whatever. And it's so weird 'cause on the front it has, it's not quite a coin, but it's glued on or welded on. And it says us US. So it's clearly military.

And then on the back is Mickey Mouse driving a little car, which is so weird 'cause it's totally outta place. It's hand etched, you can tell. And then below that, also hand etched, which just haunts my dreams, says we are the unwilling led by the unqualified to do the unthinkable for the ungrateful. Oh man, isn't that just, wow.

So an American left it behind and you found it so left it behind is interesting. Right? Because I have this lighter in my possession and I'm like, why? Did he drop it or was he killed and it

[00:04:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: was left behind? Yeah.

[00:04:41] Jordan Harbinger: Did he get startled? And a sniper shot rang out over his head and he dropped it 'cause he was lighting a cigarette and he ran.

Did he get shot and die Right there. And that's why he dropped it and they removed the body but they didn't find the lighter 'cause it was in the dirt. Is he still alive right now? Was he one of those

[00:04:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: weird Disney adults who goes

[00:04:58] Jordan Harbinger: every two or three months but thinking, I don't know. And it's like, is he alive now?

Did he die of cancer from Agent Orange? Did he die of lung cancer? 'cause I guess he smoked so many questions. That is an incredible artifact. Yes. I kept it. My mom was like, should I get rid of this? You don't need lighters. And I was like, ah, that one I'm keeping. And I put a new sort of inner in it. 'cause the one that was in there I remember was just like completely.

Not usable, dirty and washed out and rusty. But I paid someone to clean it up 'cause I was like, oh this is a mess. So this guy like brushed it off and I dunno if he used chemicals, but it looks pretty good. You can tell it's old but it looks pretty good.

[00:05:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: And your house is not haunted by any weird spirits or,

[00:05:36] Jordan Harbinger: that's a really good question.

I'm not sure. Maybe it is, but I'm just so curious what caused that guy to drop that, especially in that area. It's like, is he still alive? So if that's your lighter or your grandpa's lighter and if anybody has any insight to what the Mickey Mouse driving a little car would be, 'cause they deliberately put that there.

It's not like this was a Disney theme to zippo lighter this somebody etched that in there. We are the unwilling led by the unqualified to do the unthinkable for the ungrateful. Is that something that people said? Was that a common refrain or is that a poem that this guy himself wrote? I don't know.

[00:06:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: I should probably Google that part.

So I just chat. GP TD this, and I cannot say with a hundred percent certainty that chat GPT is correct. But you know how there's that term, Mickey Mouse to kind of describe things as disorganized or amateurish. So apparently during and after the Vietnam War, some veterans use that term to talk about certain aspects of the military and training and operations, because things were, you know, a cluster.

Cluster, yeah. Inefficient. Yeah. So I guess they would describe the military and certain people they came across as Mickey Mouse, so that could be one. But interestingly, in 1969, there was apparently an underground anti-war animated short film titled Mickey Mouse in Vietnam. And in this movie, Mickey Mouse enlists in the army travels to Vietnam and is promptly killed.

And the whole thing was apparently a stark commentary on the war. So I wonder if that explains the Mickey Mouse emblem on the back.

[00:07:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Mickey Mouse is driving this thing kind of clearly. That guy was not a huge fan of his leadership given the poem or whatever on the back.

[00:07:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, that's a subversive thing to put in a cartoon.

It's hard to imagine them doing that today. Yeah, that's true.

[00:07:18] Jordan Harbinger: Did that short come from

[00:07:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Disney or it's just like someone pirated Mickey Mouse. This is really interesting, so I'm just reading a bit more. The director of this short was a guy named Whitney Lee Savage, who apparently is the father of Adam Savage, who's been on the show.

And the producer and head designer was a guy named Milton Glaser and they produced it independently and the short was not endorsed by the Walt Disney Company.

[00:07:41] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, okay. That makes sense. It doesn't seem like a Disney thing to be like, let's get Mickey Mouse off by the Vecon.

[00:07:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, but how did they manage to do it?

This is fascinating. They must have just made it on their own and released it secretly underground, and Disney had no idea or couldn't control it. Yeah. The Disney corporation today is so different, right? Like they're very careful about what they put

[00:08:01] Jordan Harbinger: out, I think. Yeah. Fascinating. I'm still curious about that poem or if you can call it that.

I'm so curious about that. So if anybody has any insight there I am. All ears. As always. We've got some fun ones and some pungy pits and I'm excited to dive in. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailba?

[00:08:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, 15 years ago I moved back to the US to live with my mother after separating from my husband while living abroad.

At the time my daughter was two and I needed support. I've been a full-time single mom since things were manageable until my older sister, her husband, and their child moved in with us eight years ago after selling their house, despite having money from the sale. That brought our household to four adults and two young kids in a cramped three bedroom, two bathroom home.

While living together, my mom had rotator cuff surgery leaving me to care for both kids while also managing the household. One morning my nephew repeatedly ignored me when called to breakfast. The situation escalated when he kicked my daughter in the chest, causing her to cry in pain. I spanked him once on his bottom.

Not hard as a consequence, something my sister had previously told me I was allowed to do if necessary, and she wasn't around. He ran crying to his mother who accused me of abusing him. After seeing a handprint where I spanked him, I explained what happened, but my sister threatened to call the police and somehow convinced my mother still groggy from pain medication that I had abused her child.

Even though my mother repeatedly said that he was being naughty. I was deeply hurt by the accusations, especially because I love my nephew and I would've spanked my daughter had she done the same thing.

[00:09:39] Jordan Harbinger: I'm not a big believer in spanking, as we've talked about before, and research shows that it just doesn't work that well.

I know people disagree. I always get emails about it. There are simply much better ways to discipline children. But if your sister literally gave you permission to do this and you didn't go overboard with the spanking, although the fact that you left a mark does make me wonder if it was a bit much. But if she said, yeah, you can do that.

If I'm not around, and you did it after your nephew did something objectively not okay. I mean he physically hurt your daughter. It does sound absurd for her to turn around and then call you a child abuser, especially if there's no history of this.

[00:10:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: The tension became unbearable and I decided to move out with my daughter.

Later that day, weeks later, I attempted to mend things. Our mom was completely upset by the whole thing and asked me to quote, bring peace to the family, unquote. I apologized to my sister and explained my actions. I also made it clear that being labeled a child abuser was unacceptable. I promised never to discipline or even hug my nephew again to avoid further conflict.

My mother and brother-in-law were emotional during this conversation, but my sister remained unmoved. Ultimately, I distanced myself from family gatherings to avoid further accusations. Fast forward to today, my sister is now divorced from her husband, and she and her son are living with my mother.

Recently, while my daughter was staying with my mom, she overheard my sister once again calling me a child abuser. This time claiming I also abused her emotionally and mentally I thought this issue was behind us, but hearing this reopened old wounds, I've since decided to cut ties with my sister, even though it breaks my heart to lose a relationship with my nephew.

There is no truth to the claim that I've mentally or emotionally abused my sister. She often accuses anyone who disagrees with her of such behavior. She has a long history of falling out with people. She's been asked to leave churches, alienated her ex-husbands and their families, and is estranged from much of our extended family.

Her explanation is always that others are jealous of her because she's beautiful and skinny. She was a model and has recently started modeling. Again, I hate to use this term, but she's a textbook narcissist.

[00:11:50] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, she is. This is interesting. So there's a pattern of this that seems to stretch back ways from the sound of it.

What

[00:11:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: do you have

[00:11:57] Jordan Harbinger: to

[00:11:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: do to get kicked out of a church here?

[00:12:00] Jordan Harbinger: Get that same thing.

[00:12:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Heckle the pastor during a sermon. I mean, you have to be pretty bad.

[00:12:03] Jordan Harbinger: Church just have notoriously gotten away with a lot of egregious stuff. Well, you have to elbow an old lady in the face because she cut the communion line.

If you can't behave yourself at church, imagine what a nightmare you must be in the outside world. Jesus literally looking down on you from above, hanging off the cross and you're like, take that Edith, you old bag's my cracker.

[00:12:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh man. So she goes on. There's more to unpack about my sister, including her divisive beliefs and history of conflict with others. Not a surprise. Growing up, we were very close. Even into our twenties, things started to change around the 2016 presidential election. I'm a Republican but not a Trump supporter.

She, on the other hand, became a fervent Trump advocate to the point of calling him a messiah. She would dominate family gatherings with political talk, and despite my requests to avoid the topic, she insisted I should just not attend if I couldn't handle it. Over time, she became deeply involved in conspiracy theories, particularly Q Anon, donating money, putting stickers on her car, and consuming endless online content.

This even influenced our mom, who occasionally calls me with paranoid concerns about power outages, food shortages, and martial law. It's clear that these ideas are coming from my sister.

[00:13:23] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, this is mental illness. This has nothing to do with politics. This is a conspiracy theory and some kind of mind virus.

This is just not political. Once you start believing in all this kooky stuff, it's, it's crazy.

[00:13:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: My older brother has also completely cut ties with her because he too finds her unbearable.

[00:13:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay. That's actually helpful data. So it's not just you who's having problems with your sister. And again, she sounds like a bit of a nightmare, although I know that people who really buy into conspiracy theories are generally scared.

Actually. They're vulnerable deep down, so I guess we need to have some compassion for her. You don't normally meet people whose lives are working out really well for them and they believe, yeah, I don't know. Jewish space lasers cause the fires in Maui. That's not something that normal, sane people who have things going on believe, but man, what a tough sibling to have so hard, especially since she lives with your mother, with whom I presume you still want a relationship.

[00:14:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Another complicating factor is that my sister was a plaintiff in a high profile sexual abuse case. She claims that she called me almost 20 years ago after the abuse, but I have no memory of this call. When I told her that she accused me of sabotaging her case. My mom even asked me to lie under oath and say, I did receive the call to keep the peace, but I refused.

[00:14:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Fascinating. First of all, well, I have to think. That helps explain why she is the way she is. So she has some serious trauma, although I almost hate myself for saying this, Gabe, when somebody believes that martial law is gonna happen and that whatever sort of celebrity that they idolize is actually a prophet from God, all these other kooky Q anon things.

I kind of don't believe anything else that they say, which is really not doing this woman any favors. So it's hard to say is her craziness caused by the trauma because of the abuse, or is the abuse also like some weird thing that she made up in her head?

[00:15:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: I had not considered that. I'm getting the sense, and our friend here did not suggest anything otherwise.

Right? Like I think this abuse probably happened. It sounds like the high

[00:15:24] Jordan Harbinger: profile case was high profile because it was a scandal That was obviously

[00:15:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: true, many victims and it was in the news and stuff. So I think this did happen, and so it's probably more likely that this and who knows what else happened to her in her life, have led her to believe in stuff like this or played a role in it.

Anyway, I now don't know how to reconcile my love for my nephew with the toxicity of my relationship with my sister. I feel devastated that she tells him I abused him and I've lost the ability to connect with him without fear of further accusations. I've made peace with the fact that my relationship with her is beyond repair, but it deeply hurts to lose my nephew in the process.

Do you have any advice on how to navigate the situation signed? Trying to be disarming after being accused of harming?

[00:16:10] Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy. What a cluster. What a sister and what a family. So, oh man. First of all, I'm very sorry that things have played out in this way with your sister and your nephew. Like I said, I am not a fan of corporal punishment of any kind myself.

Obviously, there is a huge difference between lightly slash moderately spanking a kid once with his mother's permission after he'd beat up somebody else, whatever, and being a full-blown child abuser. I know we only have your story to go on here, but it just doesn't sound like this is who you are. There isn't a pattern of this behavior despite your sister accusing you of abusing her randomly.

So this accusation really does sound hyperbolic. It's like it's designed to accomplish something for her, and this is a really tough sibling to have really tough everything you've shared. Paints a picture of a remarkably difficult personality to be close with. She's combative, she's rigid, she sounds unstable.

If her outbursts and turbulent relationships are any indication, she's dogmatic about her beliefs. She's disrespectful, she's misattuned. I don't know how you can be consistently close with somebody like this. She's now alienated both of her siblings as well as apparently countless other people. So it's like At what point do you go, huh, maybe the problem is me, except it sounds like she can't even begin to wrap her mind around that, which I.

Like you pointed out is kind of a hallmark of narcissism,

[00:17:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: but also kind of what narcissism is designed to do, right? Yes. It's designed to protect the ego against various threats.

[00:17:39] Jordan Harbinger: Right, and those threats can be other people's opinions.

[00:17:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep. Their opinions and also difficult feelings in oneself.

[00:17:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Shame, imperfection, failure, all things that

[00:17:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: might arise at deep levels or even my ideas are not very sound.

They don't hold up to scrutiny. Or even something like my son kicked my niece and really hurt her. How does that reflect on me as a parent?

[00:17:59] Jordan Harbinger: I'm gonna make a bold interpretation here, but I have a feeling this is probably what happened. Our friend here went, Hey, your son was outta control. He kicked my daughter in the chest and he wouldn't calm down.

So I spanked him and her sister instead of sitting with that piece of information and whatever feelings had stirred up in her, she jumps straight to, you're a child abuser. She escalates. She condemns and just kinda like sends it outward. Yes. She's projecting or just deflecting hard. So given how difficult she is.

There's a part of me that's going great. You don't talk anymore. Good freaking riddance. And I'm sure there's part of you saying that too. The real tragedy though is that it means you can't be close with your nephew. And that just, that sucks. I'm sorry for both of you that you guys pay the price, but honestly, if your relationship really is beyond repair, which sounds like it is, and being in each other's lives means exposing yourself to more accusations to say nothing of just the rest of the crazy, then this might just be the cost of protecting yourself.

And it's incredibly sad. It's incredibly painful, it's hugely disappointing. But this might be one of those situations where you just can't be very close with your nephew because his mom is nuts. And you do your best to stay connected however you can. You leave the door open to a relationship. You grab little moments with him here and there when you run into each other, if you run into each other, I don't know.

And when he's older and he has a little bit more control over his life and his relationships, you guys hopefully come back together,

[00:19:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: which if his mom really is as problematic as you say, and your nephew is not cut from the same cloth, if you can see his mom objectively even a little bit. And I have a feeling that he will because it's like, you know, how can you ignore the fact that your mom is being kicked out of church and is not on speaking terms with multiple ex-husbands and most of her family, and I'm just filling in all the blanks, posting crazy conspiracy theories on Facebook.

At some point he will probably go, huh, I wonder if my mom is a little nuts or a little questionable. So if he's open to forming his own opinions about her, there is a timeline where you guys find your way back to each other. And I. Your relationship flourishes in, I don't know, 8, 9, 10 years or something, or who knows, maybe even sooner.

[00:20:03] Jordan Harbinger: Also, I'm wondering if the son's father has visitation rights. We didn't hear anything to the contrary. I'm assuming that part of the reason they split up is because she is the way she is, so he might actually be sympathetic to you. So another solution potentially might be staying close with your ex-brother-in-law and seeing if you can drop in on your nephew when he's with his dad every now and again.

That might be a nice way around your sister.

[00:20:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is a great idea. I did not think of that. Although you guys would have to decide how to handle that with your sister, because if she finds out you're secretly seeing her son behind her back with her ex-husband's permission, I'm guessing she's gonna lose her mind.

[00:20:37] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, right. So it either has to be a secret, which creates all these other problems, or it needs to be on the up and up. And the ex-husband just says, look, she's his aunt. I'm with them the whole time. He's safe. I'm allowing it. And you don't have a choice because it's my time. But I agree it is a lot to ask because again, it's his time.

He might not be like, yeah, let me have your aunt hang out with you during my weekend. No. So she does have another option though, which is to find a middle ground where her relationship with her sister is maybe not good, but still able to attend family events together and she gets to see her nephew that way.

It might mean she has to endure all this BS and her sister might not encourage their relationship, but at least they won't be completely estranged.

[00:21:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: But if it's true that she ultimately can't have both, she's gonna have to decide what's more important, right? She's gonna have to either protect herself or stay close with her nephew.

[00:21:24] Jordan Harbinger: And look, if it's me, I'm protecting myself because as much as this nephew needs and deserves an aunt who's healthy and cool and kind, and not batshit crazy like mom, the unfortunate spanking incident, not withstanding, this is not her child. And I know how infuriating it is to have to deal with an unstable family member.

[00:21:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I tend to agree. And so I think what she's coming to terms with is that she might have to miss her nephew quite a bit for a period of time, and there's gonna be some grief associated with that.

[00:21:51] Jordan Harbinger: There's plenty of grief to go around for the nephew, obviously for the sister, she's lost. Although it sounds like maybe that's countered by her relief, but I also think some grief for the family unit as she knew it, as dysfunctional as it is.

Gabe, I know this is not the main thing that she wrote in about, but we gotta talk about her sister's past for a moment here. Yeah,

[00:22:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: let's do it. What are you thinking?

[00:22:10] Jordan Harbinger: I am just struck by the fact that her sister is, how do you even put it delicately? She's kind of insane. She apparently creates chaos and dysfunction wherever she goes.

She's driving people away. She's buying into highly questionable, dumb political conspiracies and inflicting them on other people even when they ask her not to. So it sounds like she's getting their mom worked up also converting her to her side. The list of problems just goes on and on, but whenever you scratch the surface of personalities like this.

You almost always find unresolved trauma. And bam. When I was wondering what happened to this woman, you get to this part about this incredibly dark thing that happened to her. And I was like, oh, dang it. Now I gotta empathize with this person because she's seriously wounded. And that was not her fault.

Okay. And that kind of complicates the picture of how much agency she really has to some degree.

[00:23:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: To some degree, right? Because she might have a very difficult past, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have some responsibility to take care of herself. And so our friend has to balance her empathy with that fact.

Yeah, her sister is objectively out of control. She has some good reasons for that, or at least one good reason. But then it's on her to work on it. She can go to therapy, she can go to anger management class or. Some other class, I don't know, not melting down by the holy Water class. I don't know if that exists, but it's a niche workshop.

[00:23:30] Jordan Harbinger: That's pretty niche. Yeah. Hot eight doesn't have that one.

[00:23:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, it doesn't. I

[00:23:35] Jordan Harbinger: wish

[00:23:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: to really investigate her political beliefs. I mean, she can do some things to work on of

[00:23:40] Jordan Harbinger: course, but she's not doing any of that from the sound of it, and it doesn't even sound like she even sees herself as the problem.

[00:23:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: So that's part of our friend's grief here too, to look at her sister and go, I have so much compassion for how you ended up this way, and I'm not sure if I can really fully be in your life.

I also find it fascinating that her sister accused her of sabotaging her legal case. It's an interesting word.

[00:24:02] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's another detail that gives me pause, whether that phone call happened or not.

[00:24:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Look, if she did call her friend here and tell her about the abuse and our friend forgot, which does not seem to be the case, but hey, it's possible.

That does not mean that she sabotaged her sister. There's a whole story in that word sabotage that is above and beyond the facts here. So the fact that the sister is spinning this into a narrative that her sister was actively trying to harm her or discredit her or make it impossible for her to get justice, even if this phone call did somehow happen, that's actually very sad and worrisome.

I mean, it's insane to her,

[00:24:39] Jordan Harbinger: obviously, but objectively speaking,

[00:24:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: and it might speak to the wound underlying her sister's personality or slash possible personality disorder, the fact that she feels like no one is really on her side, and that might get construed in some convoluted way into people are actually out to hurt me, including my family.

[00:24:57] Jordan Harbinger: It's really interesting you put it that way, because I'm still thinking about her attraction to conspiracy theories. We know that one of the big appeals of conspiracy theories is that they give people a sense of control, and if her sister has felt out of control for most of her life, which I'm guessing she has, perhaps since the abuse, but possibly even before that, I can imagine it would be quite comforting to her to feel, I know how the world really works.

I see through the charade, I'm unplugged from the matrix. I have access to all the right information and the true beliefs that I get off of Q Twitter or whatever, and that makes me feel like I have a solid place in the world.

[00:25:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is a really good take. And also conspiracy theories give people a sense of community as well, right?

[00:25:36] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Solidarity. Look at all these flat earth people that go to conferences and stuff, and they sell t-shirts and they find other people that are also like neck bey, basement dwellers,

[00:25:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: which again, if she struggles to feel that people are really on her side, you can imagine how compelling that sense of belonging and connection might be.

Even if it is being mediated through some highly questionable ideas. The last thing we have to touch on, man, Jordan, this is just a Russian nesting doll of a question. It just doesn't stop. But I do think it's playing a big role here. We gotta talk about their mom.

[00:26:07] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:26:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well she's kind of the figure hanging over the whole story.

Right? There were two moments in the letter that captured something really interesting about their mom. The first is when she said that weeks after the spanking incident, her mom was completely upset by the whole thing and she asked our friend here to quote unquote, bring peace to the family.

[00:26:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, my, I hate using this word, but I'm gonna do it.

Spidey senses went off there as well.

[00:26:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: I heard you. You jumped in and that prompted our friend to apologize to her sister and explain herself. The other moment that jumped out to me was when her mom asked her to lie under oath and say that she did receive that phone call once again to keep the peace.

[00:26:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So Gabe, every time we hear the phrase, keep the peace in a feedback Friday letter, I'm always like, okay, something's off here. Something's getting swept under the rug.

[00:26:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep, for sure. So in two different contexts, separated by years and who knows how many more situations there were like this. Mom is asking our friend here to accommodate her sister under the guise of keeping things on an even keel and doing right by the family,

[00:27:05] Jordan Harbinger: which is another way of saying, in a way that benefits her, in a

[00:27:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: way that benefits her.

Exactly. And often at her own expense, Uhhuh. So in one situation, she pays the price by continuing to be subjected to her sister's wild accusations of abuse. And in the other situation, she pays the price by contradicting her own memory, her own experience, and having to lie for her sister, not just lie.

Okay. She

[00:27:28] Jordan Harbinger: wants her to commit perjury, which is by the way, a fricking felony in most places.

[00:27:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's a really big deal to do that. And again, I know it's not the main thing that she's writing in about, she's asking about her nephew.

[00:27:38] Jordan Harbinger: No, they're absolutely related.

[00:27:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I think they are. I just have a strong hunch that this keeping the peace thing says a lot about the whole model for their relationship growing up and the dynamic that developed between them and the way that their mom, I imagine, prioritized her sister over her in a number of ways.

And all of the understandable anger that she feels not just toward her sister, but maybe also toward her mom for perhaps enabling her to be this way, whether mom intended to or not.

[00:28:04] Jordan Harbinger: A hundred percent Let, let's also remember that their mom allowed the sister, her husband, and her child to move into this small home after they sold their house, even though they had proceeds from the sale,

[00:28:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: even though they had proceeds from the sale.

I know it is an interesting detail.

[00:28:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's just odd and strikes me as somebody who wants to live around and control the family anyway, when she had surgery, it was our friend here who was apparently left to care for both kids while also managing the household, which is also completely unfair.

[00:28:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's interesting that you read into that a desire for control.

I think maybe that's another example of the mom capitulating to the sisters demands or just, I don't know. Because again, then she and the other daughter pay the price, but they get to live rent free even though they have the money to live on their own. It's just interesting. But yeah, that is how she found herself in the kitchen that morning, exasperated with her nephew while his mom was in the other room, and that is the moment when all of this came to a head.

[00:28:56] Jordan Harbinger: Now that we're digging into it, I do wonder if maybe her feelings about her sister might have been building for some time and it just all came out in this spanking. Not that she intended to take it out in her nephew or anything. It doesn't sound like that's her nature from this letter alone, but when the son of the woman driving you absolutely nuts kicks your daughter, there's some stank on that spank.

[00:29:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is a hot take. I think there's something there. I agree. Jordan, I'm also wondering what it is about Q Anon specifically that might speak to this person. Yes. She might be conspiratorial in general any conspiracy theory might do the trick, so to speak. But it's interesting that she has a background of abuse.

She was part of this high profile sexual abuse case. Isn't a lot of QAN anon about like pedophiles and busting people who are like abusing children. And there's kind of like a messianic like we're gonna protect the most vulnerable people and that the elites are hurting people a hundred percent. And I, it makes me wonder if maybe what she went through also predisposes her to a conspiracy theory like this where she might feel protected and heard by this community that is spinning these crazy myths about our society.

And yeah, I just wonder if there's some connection there.

[00:30:05] Jordan Harbinger: I always think about this when I hear like the such and such elites have a cabal that's trafficking children in order to regain their youth. I'm kind of like, well, that's dumb. But I would imagine, let's imagine that you're a sexual abuse survivor of a powerful person in your community who runs the local church or something like that.

They've abused a bunch of kids there. And of course it was really disgusting, but maybe there was Regis additional things happening, who knows? And then you go through that life-changing traumatic experience and suddenly you find the internet has a community of warriors that are decoding secret messages from a secret government agent on Twitter or whatever BSQ drops are, and it's, oh my gosh, I can maybe save someone else from going through this thing that I went through, not really being emotionally intelligent or just regularly intelligent enough to realize that it's complete crock of shit.

And you go, aha, okay. This is where I find my community. This is where I find people who are as upset and fired up about this as me. And so you play into it because now you feel like you're doing something. Not to mention, it sounds like her sister's life is a mess, right? Multiple ex-husbands getting kicked outta churches.

So her being able to figure out the puzzles, which is what Q drops are, they're like riddles that people try to figure out together or whatever, online trying to figure that out. And then having some measure of success, because of course they just make up whatever thing they think happened in the Q drop.

That's a lot easier than figuring out why your life is a total fricking disaster. So I get it. Oh, we figured out what Q was saying about the pedophile, Epstein Island child trafficking, zelensky missile, you know, whatever. Like the stupid lines, they connect between the dots that don't exist. That's a lot easier than like, why can't I keep a husband?

That's a lot easier to figure out,

[00:31:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: lemme solve the riddle of me instead of trying to figure out this bizarre riddle on X.

[00:32:01] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Why is my life a complete disaster and always has been? That's a tough one. Figuring out what a tweet means with a zillion other idiots chiming in about other things, that's a lot more interesting and probably a little bit easier.

[00:32:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: And meanwhile, my sister is sabotaging me and my ex-husband doesn't care about me, and these people are not taking me seriously and it's taking me years to get justice. But these people over here, they are looking out for my interests. Yeah. I just see the dots between one experience and this pro E.

Exactly.

[00:32:28] Jordan Harbinger: Not to mention everybody with two brain cells or three firing neurons or whatever. They know that Q Anon stuff is dumb. We mercilessly mock these people for good reason. She feels mercilessly attacked in other areas of her life. She can definitely relate to. Sure, join the Q thing and get mercilessly attacked by other people outside.

Again, they're all trying to sabotage us because they don't want Q and US to find out the truth about the pedophile cabal of elite Jews, or whatever the hell Q talks about. That's just another sort of shade of what her actual real life really is. According to her. Everyone's sabotaging me, even my own sister's in on it, yada yada.

So it all makes sense. It's pathetic in many ways, and a person who had handled their trauma and probably been a little bit more intelligent would've handled this differently. But it's not impossible for me to get there in my head about why somebody in her shoes believes in this crap. Anyway, fascinating and like I said, so much going on in this letter, and I'm really sorry that you're going through all this with your family.

I also think that a lot of it, most of it really, except for the decision to spank your nephew that morning, most of it is not your fault and it is not really under your control. Least of all your sister's weirdo personality and her way of dealing with stuff, I. So this does feel like a situation where you probably won't get everything you want, your peace and your relationship with your nephew, and you're now in a process of acceptance and mourning, essentially.

And I think that process is gonna be painful at times. I also think it'll be liberating given how difficult your sister is. I couldn't deal with somebody like this, but it is objectively sad that you and your nephew won't get to be as close. It's sad for both of you, but especially feel for him because he could really use the friendship of somebody who is not nuts.

I mean, imagine having that as a mom. That sucks. My hope is that you guys find your way back to each other when it's safer, and that you get to be an awesome aunt to him in due time, sending you and your nephew a big hug and wishing you all the best. All right, now I'm gonna hit you with some stanky, spanking good deals on the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help. What do you want your 2025 story to be? Every January hands you 365 blank pages. This is your chance to write something amazing, whether it's time for a major plot twist or just some minor edits, the pen is in your hand for me. Therapy has been great for navigating life's challenges, and if you've ever considered therapy, better Help is really where it's at.

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[00:36:45] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the podcast are all searchable and clickable over at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the podcast. Alright, now back to feedback Friday. Okay, next up.

[00:37:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabe.

I'm a 50-year-old elementary English as a second language teacher with a stable family life. Great kids, a loving and hardworking husband, a nice house, and a high salary at the top of the pay scale in a district where teachers are paid very well. Despite all this, I hate my job, don't get me wrong. I love the kids.

They're great. I have a close colleague who does everything to make my life easier, even if it means taking on more work herself, working alongside her is the best part of the job. But otherwise, our work environment is a nightmare. I teach nearly 100 students daily in an open hallway space without walls or doors.

Some groups are as large as 18 to 20 students in a space meant for about 10, making it impossible to manage, let alone teach effectively. We're packed in there like sardines, and there's no other option for a classroom space. Most of my time is spent chasing down, missing and late students rather than providing meaningful instruction.

Our caseload has increased every year, and this year is worse than ever. Administrative support is minimal with ridiculous expectations on us from upper admin. Although my principal is reasonable, he is inexperienced and overwhelmed. Oh bro, this is so bleak. Our education system, man, this is, ugh. What a sad state of affairs.

[00:38:23] Jordan Harbinger: Seriously, for

[00:38:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: the

[00:38:23] Jordan Harbinger: kids and the teachers. She's teaching a hundred kids a day in the hallway. I can't even wrap my mind around that. How are you teaching in the hallway

[00:38:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: in America? Dude, this is not Aleppo. This is America. No wonder so many teachers are going outta their minds. What the hell? I feel trapped.

I have six years until I can retire with a full pension and health benefits, which are critical since my husband, a small business owner, relies on my insurance and doesn't have a pension. Other districts often require 10 years of service to get retirement benefits, making it risky for me to change jobs.

I know I'm fortunate to have a stable, high paying position, and I think I'll be glad when I have a six figure pension and don't have to work again if I don't want to. I realize most professions don't have that perk, which is huge, but I'm exhausted. Angry to have been put in this position where I was set up to fail and unsure how I'll endure this for six more years.

I'm crying every morning when I drive to work. And find myself on the verge of tears several times throughout the day. Oh man. That's intense. I am so sorry. This has gotten bad. It's painful. Yeah. I feel like I chose the wrong career, but it's too late to change. I know six years can go by quickly, but I'm not sure what next year will bring if this year is this horrible and I don't wanna wish my life away either.

I did open up an Etsy shop a couple years ago as a side hustle and really enjoy that as a creative outlet, but it's only making me a little fun money at the moment. Should I just bide my time, try my best, take mental health days and suck it up for a few more years? Am I truly stuck? Is there anything else I can do to get through these next few years?

Signed suffer through to like can hustle anew or jump ship and say few because I'm struggling too.

[00:40:09] Jordan Harbinger: I gotta say, no wonder this person's a fan of feedback Friday. Because when you hear the stuff that goes on in other people's lives, maybe teaching in the hallway is not as bad, but this is bad. And first of all, look, I am really sorry you're going through it right now.

Everything you're describing is very troubling and very intense, and I am sorry to hear that It's taking such an emotional toll on you. I can hear how demoralized and disenchanted and frustrated you are right now. I know so many teachers are feeling the same way. My heart goes out to you. It really does.

I, I think a lot of people probably know this. My mom was a teacher, she was a special ed teacher. She had a lot of these same gripes in the eighties and nineties. I remember her being like, can you believe they're making me teach in this way with this thing and this resources or lack of resources, or they're making me do this.

And it was bad then. That was 30 years ago, man. So I'm guessing that the feeling of being disempowered and stuck in some ways, that's the worst part. 'cause being in a crappy environment, dealing with the normal challenges of teaching, that's one thing, but feeling like you aren't making the impact you wanna make.

You're being held to what sounds like literally impossible standards, and then feeling like you can't even leave. That's just a whole other layer of unhappiness. So it's an interesting question. Are you truly stuck from a practical perspective in a way, yes, you are. It sounds to me like you have some very good reasons to stick out your final six years, the pension, the health benefits, the ability to retire and not work again if you don't want to, especially given that your husband needs your benefits too.

I'm not saying you can't leave, you're obviously welcome to, but like you said, given the way they calculate your benefits, it's a risky move and you're 50, and I'm guessing you don't wanna spend 10 years instead of six years just to be able to teach in a classroom with freaking walls that might or might not be meaningfully any better than where you are now.

And I know it's depressing to make major life decisions based on dollars and cents alone, but man, that stuff matters. You have to take care of yourself. You have to do what's right for you and your family. This might not have been your true calling, but yeah, it's your career and you've invested a significant amount of time into it.

You're blessed to be able to enjoy these generous benefits upon retirement. So I don't think that surrendering to this objectively tough situation is the worst thing in the world. Although stuck and trapped might not be the most helpful words to use. Obligated or responsible or committed might be friendlier ones.

Look, I'm not trying to hit you with simple, cute reframe here, like just use different words and your life will change. I know no matter what adjective I use, it's not gonna reduce your classroom size. It's not gonna get you a proper freaking classroom with actual walls. One thing I don't understand, Gabriel, my high school went under construction one year and they put a bunch of trailers in the field out back in the parking lot, and we just had some classes in these kind of like.

Construction Knee. Trailer.

[00:43:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And a trailer. Yeah. We had those too. They can't give her one of those. It was a different time. Jordan, you grew up in the golden age of the trailer.

[00:43:11] Jordan Harbinger: Because I remember we thought, this is so ghetto. I can't believe we're in a trailer, but it was like, all right, at least we had walls.

Anyway. I do think the story you tell here, it does matter 'cause you can spend the next six years at this school only feeling stuck and only feeling trapped. Or you can spend them feeling committed to sticking out your time. To enjoy the significant benefits you wanna enjoy, that you deserve, or you can make room for both stories and the language we use.

I know it sounds a little hokey sometimes, but it does play a big role in which story we lead with and how difficult that story is to live with day to day. We talk about this a decent amount on the show, you can either show up to your job angry and bitter that it's so dysfunctional, which by the way, is totally warranted.

I'm not saying you don't have good reasons for being frustrated, but you can either show up angry and bitter, or you can show up gracious and grateful that you have this job that's gonna take care of you for the rest of your natural life and just do your best. So from a mental, emotional perspective, I'm not so sure you're stuck because the narrative you embrace, the mindset you bring to work that can liberate you.

You can be teaching 20 students in the hallway. You can be telling yourself, I'm doing my best in a deeply flawed system, and one day this system is gonna allow me and my husband to take care of ourselves. You can be in a meeting with your principal where he's laying out impossible standards, and you can say to yourself, I'm not gonna get twisted up and knots about these impossible standards.

I'm just gonna do my best and thank you school system for rewarding me for this. Unending torrent of BS and stress, that kind of thing. So honestly, yes, I am leaning toward biting your time, trying your best take mental health days. You got plenty of PTOI would imagine as a teacher, use that ish and suck it up for a few more years.

I hate that this is the answer, but that's really where I'm falling on this.

[00:44:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm having the exact same reaction. What she is struggling with the most here, besides her desire for freedom, is just this lack of meaning because of the way the system is. There just doesn't seem to be much of that in her job.

I think you crave making an impact. You want to have an emotional connection to your work, and that's just not possible. When you spend most of your time chasing down, missing students and sweating in the hallway and everyone's uncomfortable 'cause you're packed in like sardines. The fact that you're crying on your way to work every day, clearly that speaks to your despair, your frustration, the sense of being trapped and not having a way out.

But I think it also speaks to your hunger, your really beautiful hunger for purpose. So my only other thought would be try to create that meaning wherever you can over the next six years. It might be in your one-on-one interactions with your best students. The ones who actually show up to class outside of the classroom or outside of the hallway as the case may be.

The ones who make teaching worthwhile. Maybe you make a few extra minutes to talk to them about their goals or give them detailed feedback on their homework, or just invite them to share a little bit about their lives. That can be super rewarding. And it might also be about finding small ways to make the system better, if that's interesting to you.

Maybe you lobby your principal for certain things, or you sit on an advisory committee or join the fundraising committee to raise money for a new classroom. Or you start a substack where you write about the challenges of being a teacher these days. I'm just throwing out options, but you see where I'm going?

[00:46:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Or the answer might be building this Etsy side hustle. If you spend a few hours a week investing in that, who knows where that could lead? Maybe having a fun little house plan or custom mug business, maybe that'll give you just enough gratification to cope with the next six years. By the way, I don't know, Gabriel, if you've noticed that I am drinking out of my fancy, not your lawyer mug.

Oh, yeah. One of our listeners made that for

[00:46:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: you. That's right. I don't think I've gotten mine yet, but I think it might be coming. Yeah, we'll see. I hope

[00:46:45] Jordan Harbinger: so. What I love most about this, not just that it says not your lawyer, but that it holds like a straight up leader of coffee. It's like the only thing it's missing is an intravenous tube for me to shoot it directly into my veins.

That's the

[00:46:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: only thing. Yeah, you have a venti, not your lawyer mug over there. That's right. But yeah, starting a side hustle like that, it's stimulating and it can give you some meaning, but it also gives you a few more degrees of freedom. Yes, I need to stick it out at the school for the pension, but I also have this awesome thing that I've built, and I'm capable of so much more, and I get to touch people's lives in a way that I just can't at school.

That's powerful. And obviously there are so many other sources of meaning that have nothing to do with work, friends and family, and hobbies and a spiritual life. And maybe even playing with the idea of a second career after this one, maybe one that is more fulfilling, maybe one that's closer to what you feel is your true calling.

All of these are crucial. But yeah, I'm with Jordan. I would probably stick it out too at this point and find ways of coping. But part of the coping is finding the meaning that this school, sadly, has largely made impossible.

[00:47:48] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. Gabe. And I would argue that finding that meaning isn't just a coping strategy, it's an essential part of her job, just as a human being because look.

She's counting down the days until she can retire so she can be free of all this. But when she retires, then what? She's still gonna have to find meaning in her life, and there's nothing stopping her from investing in those sources of meaning starting now, which could help her get through the next six years and set her up to thrive in retirement.

I am very sorry that you're going through this crisis. I'm sorry that our school system is so dysfunctional. It makes me really sad that thoughtful teachers like you are suffering so much. But I also feel that there are ways to work with that suffering to meet these frustrations in a way that leads to better outcomes.

That's your job now, and I know it'll help you get through the next six years and beyond. Sending you a big hug and wishing you and your students all the best you can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a lot easier. So if you know somebody's stuck experiencing psychosis after giving birth, you're stuck.

Co-parenting with a dangerous ex or your partner's insisting on going to naked parties in order to advance his career. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, even if it's not as dramatic as all that. We like those more mundane questions too. Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

What the hell was the naked parties in order to advance the career? What was that?

[00:49:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Remember the guy who's going to the networking event at the hotel penthouse? Yeah, the topless parties. Uh, the bottomless parties.

[00:49:15] Jordan Harbinger: By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter Wee bit wiser. It is essentially a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you delivered right to your inbox once a week.

If you wanna keep up with the wisdom from our thousand plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. It's a great companion to the show. Jordan harbinger.com/news is where you can find it. Okay, what's next?

[00:49:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I've achieved a high rank in the Army Reserve and continue to serve on the civilian side.

I have an equally successful career in ministry. I treat people kindly, do a lot of counseling in both of my roles and spend much of my time caring for others. I'm also happily married to my second wife and am loving life. She and I love spending time together and have similar values. We're both physically active and enjoy being outdoors, and we have similar worldviews, religious beliefs, et cetera.

My first wife had some pretty severe mental issues. Namely bipolar disorder, which she medicated with vodka. She was inconsistent in her personality and cruel to the people around her for religious and commitment reasons. I stuck it out for 20 years when we finally got divorced, I emerged with custody of my daughter and no alimony.

I am so much happier now and enjoying life with someone who is healthy and loving. The challenge is my 16-year-old daughter. I believe some of the same mental health struggles have been passed down to her. She's been diagnosed as bipolar. She's slightly on the spectrum and she's very intelligent and highly manipulative.

She's been hospitalized three times for self-harm and threats to others. I've been able to get her incredible amounts of help, regular psychiatric care, medication, counseling, the hospitalizations and individualized education program at school, and I'm in constant communication with her school advisor.

We live in a large home in a rural area with around four acres of land, apple trees, grapevines, gardens, a pumpkin patch, et cetera. It's an emotionally, physically, and spiritually safe place. She lacks for nothing. In her better moments, she tells me how grateful she is for everything, but she's usually not in that mood.

I'm gaslighted constantly. She'll complain if she isn't woken up. She yells at me if I wake her up, and yes, she has an alarm. She screams profanities constantly and tells my wife and me to F off on a regular basis. My wife and I don't swear, maybe once in a while, so she isn't in an anxious house with yelling and that sort of behavior.

She struggles to maintain friendships and constantly blames others friends, boyfriends teachers, her birth mother. Nothing is ever her fault. She lives in filth in her room. Our home is very clean, but she refuses to clean her space. I give consequences, grounding, taking away her phone, fining her with money even, but with zero success.

Meanwhile, our boys who are 23 and 17 are respectful, caring, and considerate, good human beings. We're now at our wit's end with her. I worry that she might not ever be a very nice person. I would ask her to move out, but to where her mom isn't in a position to take her. We've reached out to some resources recommended by her guidance counselor.

One of them is a residential program, but it costs well into the six figures. I'm not that kind of pastor who makes big money. Most of us pastors just make normal middle class incomes. Do you have any other ideas? Are there resources out there that I haven't tapped? What would you do Signed? Trying to stay affectionate, but hitting a bunch of impediments to treating my daughter's temperament, which is both intelligent and malevolent.

[00:52:58] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. What a tough situation this is. First of all, I am so deeply sorry that your daughter struggles in this way. This is a lot for one person to go through. Between the mom stuff and the psychiatric stuff and the personality stuff, it just sounds like there's many layers to your daughter. She has some powerful gifts and also some profound challenges, and my heart really does go out to her.

Obviously, though, my heart also breaks for you and your new partner and your sons because well, being in contact with a family member like this is really hard. You don't need me to tell you that. I can't even imagine what it's like to care for somebody who's suffering in this way, to not feel like what you're doing is even helping, and it really does sound like you're doing so much right here.

You're meeting her with a lot of love, a lot of patience, a lot of resources. This is really hard, but what's especially tough about your story is that you guys are at an interesting crossroads with your daughter. She's 16 years old, she's still very young. She obviously needs help. But in a couple years, she's gonna be an adult, legally speaking anyway, and she does have some degree of responsibility to engage with her care and relate to you guys in the most helpful way possible.

You have a lot of data about your daughter now you know that she has a disorder, that she's defiant, difficult, manipulative, that she might not be getting better, and a lot of that is outta your control, but you also can't give up on her. She's still your child. She still needs and deserves your love and your support.

So again, this is really hard. You're kind of on the precipice of a new phase with her and how things go over the next year or two is probably gonna tell you a lot about how to engage with your daughter long term. So we wanted to run all of this by an expert, and we reached out to Dr. Aaron Margolis, clinical psychologist and friend of the show.

I'm also known to the people who know me the best as the, and the first thing that Dr. Margolis said was, if your daughter is being medicated, if she's going to therapy and she's not getting better, she might need more comprehensive or involved treatment. You mentioned this super expensive residential program.

I get why that's not an option, but those are not the only residential treatment centers out there. Dr. Margolis said it's worth doing more research on your options because there are almost certainly places out there that are more affordable and or that insurance would actually cover. Your daughter's been diagnosed with at least two disorders and has a history of self-harm and threats to others, so.

If this kind of treatment is indicated for her recovery, then Dr. Margolis said that you could very well get this covered by insurance. You might need to get a psychiatrist on board or get a doctor to refer your daughter in order for your insurance to cover it. You'll probably have to work with the system a little bit, but there are much more affordable options out there.

You don't need to send her to some bougie treatment center overlooking the ocean in Malibu where they do yoga three times a day and they have a chef or whatever. So there are so many other effective options out there, and they don't all have to be residential either. Maybe there are outpatient programs or therapies or groups focused on people with bipolar disorder or a SD or other personality stuff.

[00:55:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: And by the way, once your daughter's an adult, you won't be able to make her go to treatment. But at her age, you do have a lot more say in whether she attends a program and which programs she attends. So I would take advantage of this window while you have it. The other thing Dr. Margo's pointed out, and I thought this was a really insightful point, is that your daughter has a uniquely tricky history.

You said that she struggles to maintain relationships with friends and boyfriends and teachers and her mother, and I can imagine why that might be given her childhood. But Dr. Margolis pointed out that we don't exactly know what your daughter believes about herself, about relationships, about other people.

For example, this pattern she has of blaming other people, pushing them away, not taking responsibility. Look, there might be a lot of things that inform that response, but if your daughter has some trauma from her relationship with her mom, and probably some feelings of abandonment and maybe some anger, whatever else is going on there, and let's say that that's created a complicated attachment model for her.

She might relate to other people in a way that reinforces some of those fears. That helps create the conclusion. See, people really aren't there for me or see people really do leave me. Dr. Margolis explained that when we have these experiences again and again, I. It's often because of these core beliefs we have about other people and about the world in general, those beliefs can get activated at various times.

They might drive a lot of the behavior that you're describing in your daughter. And so if you stop trying to help her, or if you kick her out of the house, say, which I know you don't want to do, you know eventually if you guys part ways, you don't know which beliefs are gonna get triggered or reinforced, or what the long-term consequences of those beliefs might be.

So Dr. Margolis general insight here was from an attachment perspective, a lot of your job as a parent is to just keep showing up, to keep loving your daughter, to keep saying, no matter what, as a parent, even when I don't agree with your behavior, even when I don't approve of how you treat me, I'm going to continue loving you and trying to help you regardless.

And Dr. Margoles wanted to acknowledge that is really difficult to do when you have a child who is volatile, who's combative. But in terms of helping a challenging child become the most well adjusted adult they can be. Not giving up on her completely is crucial, and it could play a pivotal role in her long-term mental health and just her general adjustment over time.

[00:58:21] Jordan Harbinger: I thought that was a really important point as well. I also thought it was interesting when Dr. Margolis said that consistency, that commitment, it's compatible with having boundaries because you also have to protect yourself here and your partner and your two sons. There are a few responsibilities here, and they sometimes compete the responsibility to be a steady, loving presence for your daughter, the responsibility to keep your house relatively safe, mentally, emotionally, for the rest of your family,

[00:58:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: who by the way, are also paying quite a big price here.

And that's not entirely fair either.

[00:58:51] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Yeah, totally. So part of the process that you're in with your daughter is communicating to her and showing her through your actions, I love you. I'm here for you. I'm not going anywhere. While you also communicate that there are things you find really painful and perhaps might not tolerate anymore, whether it's her yelling at you guys to F off all the time, or not engaging fully with her treatment or blaming you for all of her problems, whatever those boundaries are, those are for you to decide.

But Dr. Margolis also pointed it out. You can set all the boundaries in the world and your daughter might still trample all over them. She might continue to cause you guys pain and chaos. And that's when she shared something really helpful with us, which is. Boundaries aren't always about what you need someone else to do.

They're about what you yourself will do if someone doesn't honor the boundary that you've set. So you can't stop somebody from speaking to you a certain way, right? But if they do speak to you a certain way, then it's up to you to decide what to do. Do you challenge them on it? Do you ask them to leave?

Do you remove yourself from the situation? Do you not engage with them the way that you used to? This is what all boundaries are ultimately about. Because we know that a lot of people don't honor boundaries. Some people can't even really appreciate boundaries. So when we say, Hey, that's not cool, no more of that.

Dr. Margolis point is that we're really talking to ourselves and we're really saying, okay, self, this is not cool. We don't want any more of that. What are we gonna do if that happens again? And how do we stand by that commitment? So as you continue to find the right stance with your daughter, it's worth asking yourself how you'll respond to your daughter in the future.

If she acts in a way that doesn't meet your standards, doesn't meet your expectations and your desire to protect your wife and your sons, maybe you say, Hey look, I'm happy to talk to you, but I'm not gonna talk to you when you behave like this. So let's try again. When you're more grounded. Or maybe when she blames you for her mood or something she did, you can say, I can hear that you're angry and I get it, but I'm not gonna take all this on myself.

There are two of us in this relationship. You're 16. I'm asking you to look at the role you played in this latest event, and if you want to talk again in a different way after I'm here for that, or whatever version of that works for you.

[01:01:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: I like that a lot, Jordan, and I'm really glad Dr. Margolis explained that because it's something I think about a lot when we talk about boundaries on the show.

'cause like so many other stories we take are about family members or friends who just ignore them. And then it's like, okay, now what? Ultimately it's about us. Listen. Dr. Margolis also pointed out that at the end of the day, depending on how your daughter evolves and how she engages with the help that you're getting her and how she engages with you and your whole family, there might not be that much you can do here, and especially not for much longer.

Given her age, it's possible. I'm not saying that it's written in stone, but I might prepare for this outcome. It's possible that your daughter will continue to struggle and drive people away and go in and out of being grateful for your help. She might always struggle to some degree in her life, and that might be very hard for you to watch, and if that's the case, then you're also working through a process that is yours.

You're making sense of some complicated feelings about your daughter. There's a kind of grief associated with all of this, especially given what kind of person you are, right? You treat people kindly. You spend much of your time caring for other people. It sounds like this is your calling. It's very gratifying to you, and I can imagine that you're used to being able to help people to see that you are making an impact.

So finding that you're not having the same outcome with your daughter. Must bring up a lot. So of course, Dr. Margolis wanted to encourage you to seek out your own sources of support. One great resource we love to talk about on the show is nami, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. They have a ton of resources on their website for loved ones of people who are struggling with mental illnesses.

There's literature, support groups, clinicians, all kinds of stuff. Highly recommend checking it out.

[01:02:35] Jordan Harbinger: And by the way, a lot of those resources are actually free, low cost, or donation based, so they're actually very accessible.

[01:02:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dr. Margo has also felt that it would be very helpful for you to have your own support in figuring out what to do here.

So other pastors or people in ministry you could talk to, a therapist would be great. Maybe support groups for parents of children like your daughter. I think some community would be really helpful. I would also look into books and podcasts that deal with these subjects. Obviously, try to look for ones that are written by actual experts.

You know, psychologists, ideally people with real experience, not just ones hosted by two comedians who have a crazy mom or whatever. Those are fun too, but. It would be great to get some high quality insights as you figure how to work with your daughter.

[01:03:14] Jordan Harbinger: One book that comes up again and again is Stop Walking On Eggshells.

Yes, it's primarily about borderline personality disorder, which does seem to have some overlap with what you described about your daughter. But even if that's not what's going on with her, I still think this book will be very helpful in defining your relationship with her, diffusing arguments, protecting yourself.

[01:03:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And by the way, we're gonna link to all of these in the show notes for you so you can choke 'em out.

[01:03:37] Jordan Harbinger: Again, I am so sorry that you and your family are going through this, but you're meeting her with a lot of love, a lot of steadiness, a lot of generosity, which is incredible, and you're also learning about the limits of your ability, which is equally important and long term.

I do think that will be a profound part of your process with her and your personal growth psychologically, spiritually, and my hope is that it allows you to have the most peaceful and high functioning family possible, sending you your daughter, your sons, your partner, the whole family. Really a big hug, and big thanks to Dr.

Margolis for her wisdom and advice on this one. Dr. Margolis is seeing patients in Los Angeles and virtually throughout California. You can learn more about her and her approach@drerinmargolis.com. Or just kill her with kindness. Of course, by giving her some of the fine products and services that support the show.

We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb. True story. My brother-in-law lives right next door. He's an Airbnb super host. He's been crushing it for years, but the twist is the guy's also a huge travel junkie. So guess who gets wrangled into covering for him every time he's off on one of his globe trotting adventures.

Yes, that would be Jen, because proximity, let's just say Jen's got plenty going on without adding backup Superhost to that list. And thankfully, Airbnb has this brilliant thing called the co-host network, which means Jen is officially off duty now. He can just hire a local co-host to handle everything while he's out exploring the world.

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This episode is sponsored in part by the defender. We all have those big goals that seem just outta reach, right? But the truth is that's what keeps us moving forward. For the people who embrace challenges and explore their way, there's the defender. The defender is built to handle whatever comes its way with legendary capability on road or off.

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All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all searchable and clickable over at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Our AI chatbot can also surface promo codes that's over at Jordan harbinger.com/ai. And if that doesn't work, you can email us, jordan@jordanharbinger.com. Someone will dig up that code for you.

It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, and now for the recommendation of the week,

[01:06:57] Lip Filler Clip: I am addicted to Lit Filler.

[01:06:59] Jordan Harbinger: My recommendation of the week is using AI in your everyday life. Learning how to use AI and prompt is basically learning how to use Yahoo back in 1995.

In five years, if you can't do this, you're gonna be way behind and largely clueless about how the internet works in many ways. Chat, GPT, it's like 20 bucks a month for a regular kind of hefty account. There's a free tier. I'm not sure what the limits are, but we have the $20 a month one, and we basically just use it instead of Google Now.

There are also services like PO and others that I think are just free. But this is very much the future and soon it'll be as essential and commonplace as email and Google search. This is not like cryptocurrency where it's like Bitcoin's gonna replace the dollar. I was never that guy. I am still not that guy.

But this is something that will replace internet search for people who are still using things like Yahoo, Google, whatever. This is just, it's so much more useful. And if you don't believe me when you use Google, do you read the AI summary that shows up at the top? I know not everyone has this, but this is what convinced me.

I was using Google and I was like, ah, I use chat TPT for some things and my wife only uses chat GPT. And then I found myself just reading the AI summary that Google was giving me and I thought, why am I using Google's version of this when I can use chat GT's version of this, which is much more comprehensive, and then I can ask follow up questions, which you cannot do on Google.

So it just became so obvious that this was the switch I needed to make.

[01:08:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's insane how powerful these AI platforms are and it's interesting. I'm finding one of the hardest things is retraining my brain to just use chat GPT instead of going straight to Google because I'm so used to doing things myself that it can easily do in five seconds.

'cause my brain, I'm still on old brain,

[01:08:43] Jordan Harbinger: but that's the internet. I'm gonna drive to the library and look up the answers to these questions. That was a big lift, but looking at 20 sources on Google is harder, but we're so used to it 'cause it's still quite easy. You're doing it from your phone. There's a lot of small tasks that Jen does that I'm like, oh, that's a good idea.

She used to be like, how do I word this email so it's not rude, but still gets you off the hook for this thing that you don't wanna do? And she doesn't ask me that anymore. She asks chat GPT, and it gives her an email and she tailors one or two sentences and boom. Done.

[01:09:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also random pro tip. When you use chat GPT, try hitting the little globe icon below your query that turns on the search function.

And then it includes additional sourcing and hyperlinks with whatever chat GPT hits you back with when you ask it a question. So the upside is that you have some extra confidence that what it's giving you is accurate, or at least you can consider the source while you read the answer. It's especially useful when you're researching current events or politics, but it also helps protect against that weird thing when chat GBT gives you an answer that you know is not correct or you suspect might not be complete.

Sometimes the AI just hallucinates and it gives you an answer even though it doesn't know the answer. So turning on the search function can help protect against that because you can tell when it's actually pulling from a real source.

[01:09:55] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. I searched for a lot of health stuff 'cause I had that operation and the complications resulting from it.

And so I didn't wanna just get like the dumbest, easiest answer. And so I wanted sources and I wish I'd known about that earlier because there were some things that chat GPT told me that were quite alarming. And I researched that stuff with Google and found out that it wasn't true. And I bet if I turned on sources, it would be like either no source or it's like the New York Post has a story of one guy 30 years ago that this happened to, so maybe this can happen to you.

And it's like, no, that was just made up BS actually. So yeah, AI for the Win Man Chat, GPT. Just use it instead of Google. That's the new move. Use it instead of Yahoo or whatever search you're using and get in the habit of it and it's getting better very rapidly, but also you'll get better at asking it the precise questions and follow up questions that you need to get good answers and that's the future folks.

Also, in case you didn't know, there's a subreddit for our show. If you wanna jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, it's over at Jordan Harbinger on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Of course, a lot of cool conversations happening over there. A meme thread that's funny and just a lot of horsing around, which I think is a lot of fun.

Alright, next

[01:11:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 41-year-old man who suffered narcissistic abuse and sexual assault in my former marriage. It started with small things. She took advantage of my insecurities, low self-esteem, and A DHD. She slowly wore me down day by day, year by year. She used the mistakes I did make to punish me and further the control and abuse.

The cycle went on for 16 years. Oof. Holy smokes. That is dark. It took a friend saying to me, dude, that's abuse. For things to finally click. It still took almost three more years after that to finally escape. After I left, things got turned up to 11. She saw her narcissistic supply leaving and pulled out all the stops to get me back.

She had my friends and children convinced I was deeply mentally ill and on the brink of suicide. Without the support of my friends, I would've folded and still been in the middle of the abuse. It wasn't easy to leave. It's still hard some days when I hear through the grapevine, the stories that she tells, I still catch myself wondering if it was all in my head.

I wanted to share that it's possible to get out, that it's never too late, and that abuse happens to men as well. You're not as alone as your abuser wants you to believe you are. Your show guys and the other listeners who have shared their stories have really helped me feel less alone. Oh man.

[01:12:26] Jordan Harbinger: That's really something.

Thank you for sharing that.

[01:12:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Thank you both for what you do. I really appreciate it. Signed a grateful survivor who managed to decipher how to be wiser after nearly being a lifer. Jordan, I wanted to take this story because we've taken so many letters over the past year or two from women who have escaped narcissistic partners and just abusive partners in general, but I don't believe we've taken a letter from a man who's been through something this extreme.

I just find it fascinating, and I think it's important to remember that this stuff really can happen to both genders from both genders. It's crazy.

[01:12:57] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm glad you did. It's a good opportunity to appreciate that both men and women are capable of really awful stuff. Even though the data shows women are more likely to experience severe physical violence and sexual violence than men, although I recently read that the data on emotional abuse is much more complicated when it comes to psychological harm that's more evenly distributed between genders, which is interesting, if not predictable, I suppose.

But either way, if you're a man and you're in a relationship like this, and I actually, I remember us talking about this at some point, it's often harder to recognize this behavior as abuse. It's harder to ask for help from people. It's just as hard sometimes for men to admit that they're being victimized because generally speaking, our threshold for this stuff can be higher and it can be shameful for men to admit that.

[01:13:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: What really struck me about the letter is how important his friends were in all of this. It sounds like it was almost impossible for him to see what was happening. I mean, it, it's still hard for him, which is really interesting and must speak to the legacy of abuse and perhaps maybe some vulnerabilities he add to a partner like this.

But when he couldn't see his situation clearly someone else was able to say, Hey, let me explain to you what's happening. Let me give you that perspective and that validation, that support that additional data that we are blind to. Look, what a difference that made.

[01:14:10] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, a hundred percent. Man. For me, this is a really great illustration of how crucial our relationships are.

I feel like I've been saying this a lot lately, the past, I dunno, 18 years or so, so I'm sorry to repeat myself, but when I talk about digging the well before you're thirsty, it's not just about work stuff. We need good people around us to stay informed, to stay safe, to see ourselves clearly. What would've happened to this guy if that friend hadn't said, dude, this is abuse.

You need to get out. If his friends hadn't been there for him, it's kinda scary to think about.

[01:14:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's very telling that she convinced his friends and his children that he was mentally ill and that he was unstable. Obviously, isolation is a textbook tactic for abusers. We know that, and using other people as pawns and manipulating the victim.

These are hallmarks of narcissistic abuse, but that also speaks to the power of those relationships

[01:14:57] Jordan Harbinger: for sure. My theory is that his ex knew that she needed to chip away at his sources of support and get everyone on her side in order to keep him in her orbit.

[01:15:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. Or to shore up her own position by making sure that everybody was on her side.

But yeah, it's a good point. I guess the corollary to dig the well before you're thirsty is make sure no one drains your. That's right.

[01:15:17] Jordan Harbinger: Corollary, by the way. And if you're the abuser, the

[01:15:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: flip side, you, you really say it that way. Corollary, you go around saying corollary. Is that like concrete? I think so. I think that's the British way of saying it.

But I, I'm corollary, I'm not on board with this corollary, bro. Corollary does sound better, but

[01:15:33] Jordan Harbinger: I decided to correct you even though I don't use that particular corollary. Geez. Corollary

[01:15:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: spends one summer at a British law firm 20 years ago.

[01:15:40] Jordan Harbinger: It's true. I did. That's maybe what I get the term, my time in the old country.

So look, if you're the abuser, the flip side of this is drain someone else's well so that they become thirsty. The other thing I find very touching about this letter is when he said that hearing other people's stories on the show has helped him feel less alone.

[01:15:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's incredible. That's very powerful.

[01:16:00] Jordan Harbinger: It just really captures one of the things that I love about our show family and why telling stories is so powerful to read something or hear something and feel less alone to learn from other people who are walking a similar path. That is one of the greatest experiences that we can have. All the more so when it helps somebody like our friend here who's coming out of 16 years of this kind of abuse.

[01:16:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: I know that there's a layer to feedback Friday that is obviously entertaining. You know, there's the DO'S Cruise. We all love it. It's great. But beyond the WTF factor of the show, there's this community and there's this connection. There's this shared experience around these stories, and that is a huge part of what makes doing this show so rewarding for me.

Anyway.

[01:16:40] Jordan Harbinger: No, for me too. Absolutely. Anyway, this feels like it became a little bit of a plug for our show, which is not our intention, but this listener was gracious enough to mention the role we played in this, and that means a lot. And I know you weren't asking a question here, just sharing your story, but if I can slip in one piece of advice here, and this is for everyone listening, surround yourself with good people.

Invest in them. Open up to them. Let your relationships take good care of you and do the same for them. Make that a little resolution for yourself this year. And a big part of that is share parts of yourself. Be vulnerable. Tell your story, because look what can happen when you do and when you allow other people to help you see your own story more clearly.

I'm sorry you went through all this, man, I'm so glad you got out. That must have taken a lot of courage, a lot of trust, a lot of conviction in your own experience. Kind of a theme on today's episode, and also a lot of confidence in your ability to rebuild your life, and I'm super proud of you for that.

Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. The circle of people I know, like, and trust. We just said, dig that well before you get thirsty. Six minute networking. It's all the tactics on how to do it in a way that isn't gross and it's free on the Think If platform@sixminutenetworking.com.

Show notes and transcripts over@jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show. At Jordan harbinger.com/deals, I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's over on Instagram, Gabriel Mizrahi, or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi.

This show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger Jace Sanderson, Robert Foggerty. Ian Baird taught us Sid Lacus. Now of course, Gabriel Rahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer as evidenced by this mug that I'm holding in my hand here.

So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Dr. Margolis input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate and establish clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance.

Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.

You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Rory Stewart. He walked across Afghanistan post nine 11 in the winter, which is incredible, but even more interesting is his philosophy on charity he's president of Give Directly, which gives cash with no strings attached.

[01:19:10] JHS Clip: I walked across South Afghanistan just after nine 11, and it was an amazing time to walk across the country.

It was the middle of the winter. I was walking with a giant dog, and the Taliban government had just fallen, but the new government hadn't emerged, and it changed my life. Really, what kept me alive and safe were the villages I remember feeling for the first time. So. Lucky to be with them. I was so tired.

I'd been walking then for nearly 28 days without a break living on bread, and I felt a kind of wonderful sense of brotherhood. It was a very humbling experience. I think the biggest lesson I took from the walk is about global poverty. I was staying with some of the very, very poorest people in the world, and I was seeing a lot of really bad aid programs, really kind of crappy development programs and a lot of these villages I went to and such a deep level of cynicism from the local villages about what on earth these foreigners thought they were doing.

Spending all this money and delivering basically no benefit to these villages, basically their phones or their bank accounts, which allows us now to deliver money directly to people's phones without going through governments or middle people. Turns out if you give people cash, it's better than almost any other program for nutrition, for education, enrollment for health, shelter.

The truth is that we are not yet in a world in which it's realistic to expect people from Global North to pay every month to support the income of the people in the global south

[01:20:40] Jordan Harbinger: to learn why cash charity is best and what's wrong with foreign aid. Check out episode 8 67 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.