1303: Self-Invited Guest Puts Friendship to the Test | Feedback Friday

1303: Self-Invited Guest Puts Friendship to the Test | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the supercharger powering this electric vehicle of life wisdom in a world where the price of self-help fuel is skyrocketing, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That is true. One barrel of self-help is at record highs, I'm reading.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Nearly impossible to get a crate of Byron Katie books through the Strait of Hormuz right now. Thanks a lot, Ayatollah Khamenei, or whoever, whoever's in charge over there, by the time this airs.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That is the main product being affected by this war.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Don't you hate it when you take a nap and you wake up three  Ayatollahs later?

It's just a little disorienting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That was all very, very  Hormuz-ing.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Giving it to you straight, bro. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form [00:01:00] conversations with a variety of amazing folks from arms dealers and military officers, astronauts, cold case homicide, investigators, and spies. This week we had Mariana van Zeller. She's the host of Trafficked on Nat Geo and the host of the Hidden Third podcast.

She's just an amazing journalist. There's I if you know her, you probably love her. We talked about her meeting with some of the most dangerous people in the human and weapons trafficking underworld and what it takes to create a hit TV show. She's just a gem of a person. I've one of my, probably one of my favorite guests.

I just amazing talking with her, meeting her, becoming friends with her. She's just great. I think you'll love this episode, especially if you like the show traffic, you'll, you're going to dig it on Fridays though, we share stories. Take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and duck for cover while this existential ordinance falls all around us.

Jase Sanderson: Hello there, show fam, it's Producer Jase here. Just a heads up in case you want to skip Jordan's Middle Eastern adventures and Gabe's travel updates. You can jump ahead to 21 minutes and 20 seconds. Enjoy the [00:02:00] show!

Gabriel Mizrahi: By the way, I don't know if you guys can tell, but Jordan and I are both sick this week, so.

Yeah.

If we sound a little weird, that's why. Jordan has some undefinable plague, and I have something I picked up at, I'm pretty sure the Pilates studio in La Quinta near my dad's house.

That almost

Jordan Harbinger: sounds like a joke, but we know you so it's not.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That was, that was just a fact.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Uh, I picked something up. The Pilates studio in La Quinta.

Oh, Que Bonito, Gabriel.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know how that reformer plague be? You just, uh, you pick it up from, from the carriage. Straight from the carriage.

Jordan Harbinger: God, that's the most west side of LA thing you've said in a long time. Honestly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But the irony was, it was way east. Yeah, because I, it happened in the desert where my dad lives.

He had shoulder surgery. Shout out to Victor for being a champion through shoulder surgery and, uh, listens to the show every week. I love you dad. And I was out there hanging out with him while he recovered and I went to go do a class and I think that's probably where I got it.

Jordan Harbinger: Super spreader events, man.

Super

Gabriel Mizrahi: spreader

Jordan Harbinger: events. Pilates. That's right. Our live show back in 2022 or whenever. That was with [00:03:00] Ryan Holiday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah. Was that a super spreader event? I

Jordan Harbinger: didn't, oh yeah. Everyone got COVID. That was one where everyone was being super careful and then at the end I was like, I can't just like walk away from all these show fans that showed up.

They're, they came out during a pandemic to hang. Everyone was like either masked or not, like whatever. It was one of those things where I was like, I'm not going to like be a dick about this. And it was sort of the tail end of this thing and I was like, yeah, everyone here has lasted or already some people had already had it.

They weren't worried about whatever. And then after the first day I was like, oh, okay, cool. This went really well. And the next day I was filming a commercial for the Hyundai Ionic five. Because the whole event was sponsored by Hyundai. So I'm in an Ionic five, literally on the beach, and they're like, pretend like you're driving, right?

So there's a cameraman that's inches from my face, and there's a director behind me talking to the cameraman also in the car. And then there's a producer or something in the other seat, so they're all off camera. This is how they film car commercials, right? It looks like you're leisurely driving and enjoying yourself, but really the car is asked to [00:04:00] elbow full of people with the windows up so the sound doesn't get screwed up, and they're all breathing in each other's faces, including me.

And as soon as I went home to my hotel, I was like, I'm not feeling so good. What's the incubation period on getting something and after that everybody on that whole shoot got COVID and a bunch of the people at the live event also said they got COVID. So who knows where we got it, but it was just like, yeah, like 40 people.

Got it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I did not remember that. I did not get a COVID at that event, so I don't know what happened. I luck. I dodged it, but I got it later.

Jordan Harbinger: Lucky you, you're one of the few, I think it was the commercial shoot combined with the super spreader event potentially, but anyway.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Anyway, that's why we sound like this.

Jordan Harbinger: This is why we sound like this. I probably do have COVID again. I don't know who has COVID tests in 2026. I'm not sure. Do you even bother testing unless you're flying home? Speaking of flying home, I went to Saudi Arabia on February 26th. Yes. So that went well.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well went there.

you went, it feels like you went to the airport two, one airport lounge later and you came home.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:00] Yes. So this is my birthday trip, right. I was going to Saudi Arabia and Egypt and then crossing over via Jordan. I get to Saudi Arabia, it takes me like 30 hours literally, right?

Because the, there's not exactly a direct flight from here to Riyadh. So I fly there, it might've been like 25 hours. I fly there and I've got like overnight hotels. It's like that kind of trip. And I go to Tablo, which is the city in the west, and then they pick me up at the airport and they drive me two and a half, three hours into the Nim Desert, which is actually just super incredible.

It's sort of like an amazing sort of wonder of the world. And we kept one night and overnight everyone's too cold, so they're like, oh, we gotta do something about that. And I was like, Hey, was I sleeping or, and hallucinating, or did like airplanes and missiles and drones go overhead? And people are like, oh, I think I heard planes.

And I'm like, yeah, those are some really, really fast planes. Then. Because that was like, right. And I'm, I talked to my friend, uh, who's a, a weapons expert and he's like, those [00:06:00] are cruise missiles based on your location. Like, they're almost certainly cruise missiles. Maybe they were fighter jets.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We should explain as well, you didn't have a cell phone service.

Right?

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So you were not like following the news fully.

Jordan Harbinger: There's no cell phone service. But I did have a Garmin inReach because you need communication 2026 if you're going in the Middle East in the middle of nowhere. So I had a Garmin inReach and I had, I had my DOD contacts. I was like, Hey guys, if anything happens, can you send me a message here?

And I give it to my family? I give it to you. But I get this message that's like, there's an attack on Iran. And I was like, oh. Let me look at a map and figure, oh yeah, okay. So these, that was like missiles and jets coming over me from the Gulf to Iran, and you could see drones on the horizon because what else moves like a drone, right?

It's like this weird loitering thing. And I was like, what's over there? And the guy's like, that's an Air Force base. So I'm like, okay, so there's a loit, there's like a surveillance drone over it, probably. I don't understand what that is all about. And then there were helicopters and jets everywhere. So it just [00:07:00] felt a little bit unsafe.

And I also had this like little medical issue, like a small infection, not a, not a huge deal. I was like, you know what, this is my cue to GTFO. So I left and the trip organizer, it's Wayfinders, it's like a, the guys that go to the folks I go to like Peru and Morocco and all these different crazy place, Bhutan, all these different crazy places.

So they were like, I'm surprised Jordan's breaking point is this early? And I'm like, you know what? I'm not feeling good. I've got this medical thing. We're going to be doing a tunnel hiking and there's an attack. I'm just going to bounce and I'm going to act as a point of contact for you all. 'cause I have everyone's in reach.

I know where you are. Like I get the vibe, I'll tell you if you gotta go. So I get back to Tabuk and like that day my defense contact is like, you should go, they're going to evacuate everybody. And that means every expat's going to book a flight in like an hour and a half. Book a flight now. So I book my flight back.

I went to dinner 'cause it was Ramadan and I came back and I was like, maybe I'll change to an earlier flight anyway. And just, and I looked and everything was full, everything [00:08:00] for days. So I told my people, I was like, you guys should book flights right now. And they're kinda like, well, we might cross into Jordan and go to Egypt.

It can't be that bad. Later, that same day, they were like, oh yeah, we can't even cross because there's like missiles going into Jordan and the border is like iffy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So the rest of the people on the trip were just stuck.

Jordan Harbinger: They were stuck for a while. There were a bunch of people who were supposed to meet us that couldn't meet us because they were going to arrive a few hours later and they had a separate ride.

They were on their plane in Dubai, took off, turned around, landed, got off the plane because they were like, you can't even be in the air right now. They went to go get their luggage. They're like, there's so many planes and so much baggage, you can't get your stuff. So they went to a hotel in Dubai thinking like, okay, we'll fly out tomorrow or later today.

And then days later they're like, okay, come get your bags. You can't fly out. You're going to have to figure this out later. Come get your stuff. So they drive to the airport and as they're driving to the airport, the police stop them and are like, the airport has been hit by a drone or whatever. You [00:09:00] can't go there.

They're like, but they have all of our stuff. So they're in Dubai in a hotel and they're like, okay, I guess we'll go to the mall and go shopping. 'cause we have only the clothes on our back. No toiletries. No clothing, and we're going to be here for like a week.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That sucks.

Jordan Harbinger: They went shopping, bought a bunch of stuff, and then it didn't, the airspace never opened during the time, so they ended up driving to Oman.

And we have a sort of highly placed Thai friend, so he had some kind of hookup on Thai silk Airways for like Thai citizens and diplomats to his get out, and he placed them on that flight. So they went from Oman to Bangkok.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Yeah. Imagine flying to the Middle East for a curated trip, spending half the time at Zara

Jordan Harbinger: In Dubai.

Yeah, exactly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: In Dubai, and then ending up at an expat bar in Bangkok. It's,

Jordan Harbinger: yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Such a weird trip.

Jordan Harbinger: They had this massive hotel that was like something outta white Lotus this villa in Kum Way or something like that. They sent me a photo and it was my buddy Ek and um, Carolyn and Katie, [00:10:00] and they, they were all like in robes, laying out on the couch.

And I was like, it looks like you guys just filmed a threesome. Like what is this? They're like, oh, war be like, and I was like, yeah, let's, let's pour one out for the people who are still stuck. Man, you guys got off really easy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: War, war,

Jordan Harbinger: war. Be like, that was the caption. War

Gabriel Mizrahi: would be like white Lotus

Jordan Harbinger: War would be like white lotus except kinky.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What you just described is better than every season of White Lotus I've ever seen.

Jordan Harbinger: I know you're not a fan. So the rest of the group ends up going to Istanbul. 'cause I was like, you guys need to fly to Jetta and fly to Istanbul. It's one of the only routes that's open. Everybody else is trying to go to Cairo.

It's not, that airport is backed up like two days. Go to Jetta. It's a regional, but still international airport. I dunno, that's a contradiction, but you, you know what I mean, fly to either Sharm or to Istanbul better and then you're out of like immediate drone range. And Istanbul is like a major international hub.

So they flew like one dude flew Istanbul, Jakarta 'cause he was going to Australia. I mean it's just a freaking mess. But you know what, we're all [00:11:00] alive and we're all healthy because there I have other friends in Dubai who are just like, Hey, I still can't get out. But the only people I know that got out were them.

And I've got a buddy who works like with the royal family and they got into London. So there are people stuck in Dubai and Qatar and Bahrain. It's icky out there and it makes you just sort of grateful that you live in the United States or in the West who started this whole mess in some ways. Uh, but also that we're out of like immediate missile range, although they say that.

Your sleeper cells are going to attack California. I have my doubts, but I wouldn't put it past it. And also I think the whole FBI squad that was monitoring Iranian threats got canned by Kash Patel a couple months ago. I hope that's not true. All I know is what people are sending me from news sources, which is, you know, always depressing.

But either way it makes you grateful to be in one piece alive in the United States. So I, I can't really, it really does hate too much. And hopefully travel insurance covers it. 'cause I left for a medical reason and not just because it was chaotic. Yeah. Oh, and the whole time I was getting emails like this on my Garmin, [00:12:00] which has a little screen, right.

And I have like these emergency emails and they sound like this. This is a real one. There's a threat of imminent missile and UAV attacks over the city that we were near. Do not come to the US Consulate take cover immediately in your residence on the lowest available floor and away from windows. Do not go outside.

The US consulate in it's durron urges US citizens and durron to shelter in place. Review security plans in the event of an attack and to stay alert in case of additional future attacks. US consulate personnel are sheltering in place. So you're getting that and you're just like in a car driving along the highway thinking maybe I should not hang out in Jetta for an extra few days.

'cause that was my original plan. Yeah, and then they give you instructions on what to do. If you hear a lot of explosion sirens, it's like, seek cover, go to the nearest basement, watch out for falling debris. Meanwhile, I'm like, can I get a burger because it's Ramadan and nothing is open until 6:30 PM. I will keep it a little bit short, but I gotta say Saudi Arabia is fascinating.

I wish I could have stayed longer. We were eating Ramadan meals, first of all. They were like, Hey, do you have a reservation? And we're like, no, but we have nowhere else to [00:13:00] eat. And they were like, you know what, we feel bad for you guys, so come on in. It's like, you know, whatever, 50 bucks to eat. Because it was like the spread was insane.

Like Vegas buffet insane and like chocolate fountain. Insane. And you walk in there and there's all these dudes with the head covers and stuff like looking legit, and women with the veils on and they're eating with the veil. So they'll take food, like a piece of cake or whatever, or or a chicken, whatever, lamb.

And they'll lift the veil out a little with one hand, and then they stick the meat under their veil or the spoonful of rice or whatever under their veil and eat. And I just, I'm thinking like, interesting. That's a skill, isn't it?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've never seen somebody with a NAAB have lunch.

Jordan Harbinger: No, I, me neither, but I'm, because I always thought, oh, they just go in a separate room and eat.

Or like there's a rule where, hey, you can take this off while you eat. Kind of like COVID masks on a flight.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's like COVID,

Jordan Harbinger: right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's like an N95 really for your soul.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's like an N95 on an airplane. Nope. You just eat under it and it's a thing and it must be a pain. So going out to dinner is like probably only fun for [00:14:00] guys, right?

'cause it's like, ah, I gotta wear this and I gotta eat like this. Whereas if you eat at home, obviously you don't have to wear that. And we would be flying over Mecca. We flew over Mecca a couple of times. There would be like an announcement that was prerecorded. So clearly this route has this all the time, and it would go, we are approaching Mecca.

Please have your prayers ready, and may Allah accept all your good deeds. And you're kind of like, wow, this is intense. You know, like people are ready for this. And then I look back in the plane and everyone's just stared at their phone like, nah, just, and I was like, okay, okay, cool.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Glad you guys hired the movie trailer guy.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. No, it was, it was funny, like dudes are watching soccer games and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, for flying over Mecca whatever. It's not like a there. So I thought that was kind of, that was kind of funny. And, but it was, there's a prayer that comes on just like a safety video on the airplane. It's like really intense.

And then the super low deep voices, this prayer that's for, um, travelers flying. And it's kind of neat. Like the whole thing is really actually kind of cool. [00:15:00] Islam goes hard, dude. They, they're intense. They pray certain times, they don't eat and then they eat at certain times. But it's, it's an interesting way to structure your whole society.

I mean, I know we have our issues. With that. Now I'm not talking about any of that. It probably feels really cool to go to a place like Mecca with Muslims from all over the world. If you're Muslim, it would be like if you're Jewish and you go to the Western wall or something, except less weird because it's everyone, not just like ultra Orthodox Jews praying, which kind of is at the Western wall.

Anyway, in Saudi, I did know that some of the women had their whole face covered, but like a lot of younger women were kind of like, no thanks. And they would show their face or even some parts of their hair. Sometimes you'd be like, damn, that is a really good looking lady. And you could tell there's like certain ways they can flaunt stuff.

Like they wear a little bit of makeup or they do things a certain way or like the hijab has pushed back a little, so more hair is showing. It's, you can sort of get a feel for, there's different styles. They'll be walking with somebody who's got like their face covered and then the older lady with them has their eyes covered and you're like, oh, this, look at this generational difference.

In, in, in [00:16:00] modesty,

Gabriel Mizrahi: sometimes you walk through those international airports. It's like Arabia's Next top model or something.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Yeah. If you walk through Qatar, Doha airport. You'll see that, you'll see smashing hot women that are dressed. We in Western stuff. And it's like, oh, she's going to Germany. And then you'll see people that are coming home.

And I saw a woman with a jeans and like a halter top and she just threw a giant, I guess a bias. She just threw that on in the airport over her clothes. And I was like, oh, she's going home. Right? She's, she's gotta it dress modestly. And I've seen that here in the United States. LA You'd meet, I met a girl from Saudi Arabia and I was like, you're allowed to dress like that?

She's like, no, I have a burka in my luggage that I will put on at the airport.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's my travel Virk.

Jordan Harbinger: That's my travel Virk. Yeah, exactly. There's a lot with Saudi. I, I would've loved to have stayed longer. I noticed they, again, they go hard, right? There's prayer rooms everywhere, separated by gender. There's all kinds of like, special things that you can do and can't do.

And like a lot of the rules are kind of flexible. 'cause I remember being like, Hey, I need to go to the bathroom, but we have a female guide on this hike. And he's like, just pee on the side. She's [00:17:00] used to it. And I was like, really? You're we're in Saudi Arabia. I can just whip it out and pee like I'm in the United States.

And he's like, yeah, dude, whatever. She doesn't care. Like in the city? Nah, full coverage. 'cause other people might see it and like those people might say, so it's weird. It's kind of just like this is a hot tank. But that's what makes me think some of this stuff is more repressive. Right. Because it's like when they can get away with not wearing it, they don't wear it.

Not everybody probably, but certainly a lot of them

Gabriel Mizrahi: take the vacation where you can get it kind of thing.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, maybe. I don't know. One thing I thought was fire and we'll get to the show, uh, there's this poetry slash it's kind of a rap battle. This is an ancient tradition and it's not young guys who are like gangster looking, rapping.

It's old guys, 60 plus wearing suits. And if you look at the translation, there's all these tiktoks uh, somebody sent me and we'll play a little sample of one here before we transition to the show, but it's older guys and they're rapping and they're just, they're ding each other. It's a dis track. And it's funny 'cause it's all in Arabic, of course.

The translations are funny and it's like it was, I stand you before you like a mountain [00:18:00] and all you brought was a pomegranate seed. And the other guy's like, oh. And then it's like, and then it's the guy's like, your only job is to stand before me while I sit on my throne and get me a glass of water so I can prepare my blood for the melodies.

And I'm like, that probably sounds hella aggressive and sick. And Arabic. And they'll, they're laughing at each other, right? 'cause they're slamming each other and the audience is all dudes with like plastic chairs, not a woman in sight.

Kind of a funny tradition. Apparently this goes back a long way. It's called Zal. So it's a traditional Arabic poetry duel. It's kind of a Lebanese thing. Lavant thing. They improv verses back and forth in front of a crowd. It's, it's really like an old school rap battle, verbal [00:19:00] sparring. It's insults and wordplay and crowd reactions, but it's not vulgar.

So, I don't know, I just think it's fire. Alright. Gabe, you're back on the road too. I see.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah man. I've been in New York all of this week. It's been amazing. And I'm flying to Brazil tomorrow.

Jordan Harbinger: Alright, what's the plan? Buy a compound and bayou. Start a breath work cult live off Kuya or whatever it is for the rest of your natural life.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Marja the

Jordan Harbinger: fruit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That,

Gabriel Mizrahi: uh, compound. Uh, maybe breath work. Yep. Bit of that cult Nah, way too much work. Too Work. I'm not interested.

Jordan Harbinger: Technically too, that's where I've fallen on cult. So just too much work. Who has the time? Just

Gabriel Mizrahi: too much admin, not me.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: 100% of the maja. Yeah. You know me Well, so the plan is I'm going to start in ba ya and then I'm going to work my way South.

Rio de Janeiro. Flo Opolis. I might check out Uruguay. I've never been. I've heard good things. I know very little about it. Possibly Buenos Aires. We'll see. And then I'm going to go to Chile. I have this friend, Sebastian, dude, speaking of your travels, I think you can relate to this. This is one of those people, I've met this guy once while I was traveling three, four or [00:20:00] five years ago.

We are just bonded for life. We still talk on WhatsApp all the time, but I've only seen him once in my life. Yeah. And he and his family live in the countryside on a lake and it looks beautiful. So I'm going to go see him and then maybe explore around Chile, which I've never been to. And then after that it's just kind of up in the air.

I might finally do Machu Picchu, which I've, I've been to Peru so many times. I've never done those big things. Or, you know, hike the Inca Trail or something. Might stop in Mexico City and hang with my family there for a few days. It just all depends how much energy I have. And I don't know if work pulls me back to LA sooner, but I will be back in LA by June.

Jordan Harbinger: Nice. Maybe you can check out Patagonia, since you're going to be in Chile and Argentina.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm thinking about it. Yeah. I wanted to talk to you about that. It looks incredible. We'll talk more about that. Anyway. If anyone listening right now lives in any of these places, these cities, or any other cities in these countries that I'm visiting, please say hello.

I would love to connect with listeners in South America. I've only met one or two of you guys in person, so that would be really cool. You can email me friday@jordanharbinger.com or just find me on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. I would love to link

Jordan Harbinger: live in the dream. [00:21:00] Gabe, or, or a dream. I know Nom Madding is also, I can't even say nom madding 'cause my nose is totally closed up.

It's, it could be no

Gabriel Mizrahi: mading.

Jordan Harbinger: No bating is also kind of a nightmare sometimes, but what a nightmare to have. Eh,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm excited man. I'm grateful to be doing this while I can. I don't know if I always will be able to. And uh, yeah, in the meantime, the breath work does help.

Jordan Harbinger: Yep. Get that O2 bruh.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Get that O2 in those nose babe.

Jordan Harbinger: One last thing. Big shout out to Annabell Charlotte Oliver and Madeline ch fans from Toronto who are probably listening to this in the car on their way to sports practice or something. Appreciate you guys listening so much, spending so much time with us. It does mean a lot. Uh, no trigger warnings for today's episode.

Sorry to disappoint everybody. Nothing too dark here so you guys can enjoy the Dooze Cruise today's stress free, no matter who's riding with you. All right, Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, for about a decade, my fiance and I lived in a small German town where we were part of a tight knit friend group.

One member of that group, let's call him Steve, is a classic high energy extrovert.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Steve, a classic German name.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He's a [00:22:00] big ideas guy who's always launching a new business plan and loves giving unsolicited advice. He's a nice guy, but he can be a bit much

Jordan Harbinger: kind of sounds like every coked up banker or crypto bro that I knew in New York, we carry on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Four years ago we moved to a major city to start our careers. We've since gotten engaged in our, currently in the thick of family planning. During this time, we invited Steve and his wife to visit several times, but we were met with two years of radio silence. Then out of the blue, Steve recently reached out.

He expects to start a new job in our town near us and without asking, informed me over the phone that he'll be living with us. At the same time maintaining his residency back home in order to commute back and forth between his new job and his wife. He has decided that it's unnecessary to get his own place.

And just assumed our couch was his new HQ for the foreseeable future.

Jordan Harbinger: This person is insane. The balls on this guy, man. Chutzpah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The gall,

Jordan Harbinger: the gul. [00:23:00] Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Ghosts you for two years and then pops up like, Hey, I'm squatting in your house now. Thanks. Yeah. Can you stalk the fridge for me? Ba,

Jordan Harbinger: there's something. Yeah, exactly.

There's something wrong with this guy. That this is a level, and I know this word gets thrown around a lot. This is a level of narcissism or misattunement that is just pathological. Like how unselfaware and or shamelessly self-interested do you have to be? To pop up outta nowhere, like, Hey, I'm just going to crash on your couch.

Not even like, can I crash on your couch? But I'm just, this IKEA couch is my new headquarters rent free. Oh, and BT dubs my bad on ignoring you. For two years, I just had better things to do than keep in touch with friends. I later planned to Mooch off of

Gabriel Mizrahi: having a permanent guest is a non-starter for us.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's called a roommate, by the way. Not a permanent guest. That's just a roommate that doesn't pay rent.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We both have busy full-time jobs and love to come home to our peaceful nest. On top of that, we live in a quiet, suburban community of curious retirees. As an interracial couple, we already stand out and bringing a third adult into the house would definitely set the [00:24:00] neighborhood gossip mill grinding.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that's hilarious. Hey, did you see the brown guy? The white girl? Or in a throuple with some German guy. Now that's the gossip you want around town.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That HOA is going to be interesting. Yeah. Plus we're trying to start a family. The last thing we want is Steve and his boxers in our living room while we're navigating this chapter.

No kidding. Seriously yelling from the living room. Hey Chelsea, you're ovulating.

Jordan Harbinger: Are you ovulating?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Are you ovulating as he goes to town on a bowl of cinnamon toast Crunch. Oh my gosh. In his fruit of the lunch. No thank you.

Jordan Harbinger: No, Don. Exactly. While they have conception sex on the other side of inch thick drywall, half inch thick drywall,

Jase Sanderson: it's going to be a no for me.

Don.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Des is going to be a nine for me. Mine.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Mine. Oh, I love that. Mine.

Jordan Harbinger: I don't know if you could actually say that in German. My dog.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't care. It's perfect. That's my new nickname for you, my friend. So he goes on. Steve is the type of person who finds a [00:25:00] way to get what he wants once his mind is made up.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So Steve can also be the type of person who has the door slammed in his face when he tries to move into your home without being invited, just saying.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Correct. Yep. We've considered using a white lie, such as the landlord's.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, let's be PC here. It's a mixed race lie.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, good catch. Thank you. Yes, I'm welcome. Glad you caught that. We've considered using a mixed race lie, such as the landlord's not approving of such an arrangement, but we want to handle this without unnecessary drama and as honest adults,

Jordan Harbinger: right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: How do we tell a high steam idea, man, that his plan, this is so funny. This is the idea. Man has an idea that he's going to mooch off of us. Like this is not, you can't chalk this up to the guy. The fact that this guy just gets excited about his notions, right? How do we tell a high steam idea, man, that his plan is a no-go without nuking the friendship.

Signed finding the words to make this guy infer that he cannot be our third.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I feel like this might be a short one. I know it's going to go longer 'cause I'm so worked up about this [00:26:00] dude. But you have,

Gabriel Mizrahi: you have Hoed face.

Jordan Harbinger: I do have Hoed face. I'm sorry. You have to deal with this. Obviously. Super weird.

Incredibly awkward. But this guy's so out of pocket here that I actually don't think this is that hard. If this were me, I would literally be like, sorry Steve O it's a no go. I understand you want a convenient place, but you're going to have to figure that out on your own. Man. We're engaged. We're starting the next chapter of our lives.

We want our place to be our place. I'm sure you understand. That's really all you have to say if you wanted to. And what I would love to do if I were in your shoes, I would also say, and honestly man, the way you've framed this arrangement, this request really is bizarre and presumptuous, just announcing that you're moving in.

Not even asking if we are open to having a roommate, especially after ghosting us for two years. And I respectfully encourage you to consider how this might come across to people you consider friends.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, nice. Yeah, I'm with you. I think this dude needs to hear that from somebody. Somebody needs to check him because this is legitimately insane.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. And then I'd be [00:27:00] prepared for a timeline where the friendship is just over. I have a feeling this guy's not going to respond well to this. Gabe, a guy who ghost you for two years. Then does something like this. He didn't reply for two years because he didn't have a need for you. You were not useful to him.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right?

Jordan Harbinger: Then as soon as he decided to live in your area, he was like, oh yeah, I need to use these people for something, so here's what I'm going to do. It didn't even occur to him that you also have agency and could say, no, this person is damaged. You don't want somebody like this in your house.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What kind of friendship is this in the first place?

And this is the opposite of digging the well before you're, is this digging the well when you're very parched and also when the well is a couch that you want to sleep on? Honestly, good riddens, dude. I don't really understand why you would feel the need to stay on good terms with a person like this in the first place.

Jordan Harbinger: No. At first he sounded annoying and inflated misattuned, but now he sounds manipulative and presumptuous straight up. I just, ugh. No,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I thought it was interesting when our friend said that they've considered using a white lie to get out of this when they don't need that.

Jordan Harbinger: I think that's telling,

Gabriel Mizrahi: first of all, they're on such solid ground and saying no here.

To your point, [00:28:00] I don't think they need a white lie, but the answer is no. We don't want to form an asexual poly with you, Steve. Find a studio apartment close to work. Leave us alone, but second. I understand not wanting to cause unnecessary drama, and I think Jordan's script is a really good way to do that.

But if what you're saying is that you want to avoid any conflict whatsoever, which I do get the sense that you're hoping to sidestep with this landlord excuse idea, then I would encourage you to lean into that. 'cause it's called for.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. And the only way to lean into this is to do it with a Steve and find out that it's more than okay to have a perfectly reasonable boundary.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Of course, I do wonder if the desire to keep the peace and avoid drama and all of that might be in part what made Steve think he could get away with this in the first place.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I think that's likely a person like Steve. Probably isn't going to pull this move with somebody who gently checked him in the past or called him out at a dinner party for giving unsolicited advice or gave up trying to be friends when he ghosted for two years, he's going to do this kind of crap with that sweet couple who's super accommodating and never says no.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Not that those aren't virtues in the right [00:29:00] amounts, of course, but if they don't have a limit, if they're not balanced by a basic ability to stand up for yourself in some basic ways with a person like this, then they can leave you quite vulnerable.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. For sure. My feeling is that it would be reckless to allow a person like this into your home, even for a few days.

And honestly, my fear is that if you're like, okay, man, we'll give you three days, maybe a week, whatever it is, he's just going to show up, he's going to stall, and then he's going to stay, and then suddenly you're in a nightmare. I wouldn't even open the door to this guy, but I'm actually kind of excited for you to tell this guy No, both because he desperately needs to hear it and because I think it'll be a big step for you and your fiance.

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Now back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm from Minnesota and I met my husband Jim in the summer of 2017 through my best friend at the time. I got to know Jim over Snapchat, texting and phone calls, and after a few months I flew to North Carolina to meet him after doing long distance for the better part of a year.

I ended up moving there in 2018 and we are still here together, happily married now. While getting to know Jim, who was 25 at the time, I learned that he still lived at home and was very close with his family. His mom, dad, and two younger sisters all lived in the home as well. His sister, Mandy, is the middle child and is four years younger than Jim.

Before I met Jim, they did everything together to the point that if you didn't know they were siblings, you'd think they were dating. Those behaviors carried on well after I [00:33:00] moved in with Jim, which caused some friction in our relationship. Jim never had any serious girlfriends before me and always said it was because he never found anybody worthwhile.

I could see right away after meeting Mandy that it was because of how overbearing and overprotective she was. Coupled with Jim's extremely close relationship with her, when I was first introduced to her, it was clear that she was trying to intimidate me. She was loud always talking about the fights she'd been in or how she told someone off.

Making inside jokes with Jim that I wouldn't understand and just generally trying to make me feel left out and it worked. I did not feel welcomed or accepted, and I have a feeling that was her goal. Her way of marking her territory with her brother. After years of reflection, I feel like she was jealous of another woman having a relationship with her brother.

So she was trying to scare me away like she had done to others in the past.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. Hard to tell if this was truly designed to box you out or just them being weirdly close and you feeling like the [00:34:00] outsider. Always hard to know how intentional this stuff is, but I hear you. Mandy's challenging and it sounds like there's a history of this, all of which is.

Interesting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Mandy has had a pattern her whole life of overreacting to little things that most people would brush off or acting out aggressively when faced with conflict. By the time she reached her early twenties, Mandy had been in many physical altercations where she was the aggressor.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay?

Gabriel Mizrahi: And those stories are always shared in a joking manner by her and her family.

Jordan Harbinger: This is weird, man. Physical fighting is a grown ass. Woman, you

Gabriel Mizrahi: crazy.

Jordan Harbinger: That is crazy work. And the family's just like, oh my God. Remember the time Mandy threw a beer on someone at the Tigers game? And then she kicked him in the face? Oh Mandy, you're such a kook. That is weird as hell.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Her family has always excused her behavior by saying, that's just how Mandy is.

Jordan Harbinger: You know what?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I could have predicted that. Oh dude, I can't with that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's just my favorite justification for somebody being outta their mind. That's just how Mandy is.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. That's just how she is. And that is the problem.

Jordan Harbinger: That's literally [00:35:00] the problem. How far do you take that logic? Oh, remember when cousin Andy murdered three people in Reno ta.

He's such a, that's just how he, that's just how he is. That's just how he is. Never saw a homeless person. He didn't want to kidnap and put in the trunk of a car. I don't know. Andy cut up into pieces. What a wild card.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Nope. Andy's a psychopath and his brain needs to be studied in a lab.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Didn't feel like paying my taxes this year.

That's just how I am. You know what I mean? What a, it's such a ridiculous cop out, and it doesn't explain anything in any way whatsoever. All it just says is we're just enabling this because nobody has the guts to say anything.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's not just how she is. It's how you are for seeing it. That's the fact that that's just how she is.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She's also notorious for sending mile long text messages to people she has an issue with and does not shy away from petty insults. She has done this to countless friends of gyms and mine, and has done this to me more times than I can count to her. It's always the other party's fault. Her reasons for lashing out and being aggressive to people are always justified and she never [00:36:00] apologizes.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, well it's official. Mandy's a problem. Kind of take back what I said before. I can see a person like this actively trying to drive away her brother's girlfriend, not just sort of accidentally doing it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What a sister-in-law. Man, that's a lot to be up against.

Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, you have armchair diagnosis face on right now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think you know which acronym I'm circling?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, circling the B in cluster B that stands for.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. Biatch personality disorder. The most. The most elusive of the DSM labels.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. We're good. Give us those. Give us those white coats. We got this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We ended up becoming friends shortly after I moved to North Carolina, but then the conflict started.

While there are far too many to recount here, I assure you that I could easily write a hundred page dissertation. About all the hurtful things she has said and done to me.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, these people, they don't just do one crappy thing occasionally. This is like their whole personality.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My God, I love that she has a PhD in Mandy.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And her dissertation would still be shorter than a text message from this woman.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Just drop 'em into chat. GPT, like summarize my psycho sister-in-law's [00:37:00] latest beef text craft a response. Polite, but firm. Yeah, Chad, JT be like, whoosh. This one's a spicy meatball.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. This isn't emotional caretaking.

This is strategic family management.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Straight up. Let me know if you want one way to dramatically reduce the chance of setting Mandy off Thanksgiving. Just say the word

Gabriel Mizrahi: So she goes on. But just like her family, I'm also guilty of bending the knee and placating her. I apologized when I shouldn't have, just to keep the peace

Jordan Harbinger: so common, the definition of walking on eggshells.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I let her, gaslight me into thinking I'm a terrible person and that nobody likes me. I truly feel as if she's given me PTSD from all of the times she's mistreated me. I feel uncomfortable in her presence a lot of the time. I feel like I'm under a microscope when she's around, like she's just looking for something to get upset at me for.

I struggle with anxiety and usually tend to be more reserved, but that's especially true if I'm around people. I don't feel safe or comfortable Around in the past, she often interpreted my quietness as rudeness and has [00:38:00] lectured me on it before. There have been numerous times where I've received long texts from her, belittling me from my anxiety and calling me rude for it.

I pride myself on being a pretty self-aware person. I am very cognizant of how I come across to people. Even when I'm anxious, I know that I'm not rude or snappy. I'm just quiet sometimes, and I really don't see that as a bad thing. She's the only person in my life that has taken this much of an issue with my personality.

And tried making me feel bad for it.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm. Yeah. Sadly very common with this personality type.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Very blamey, very projecting.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Looking for problems and everything is always the other person's problem. The worst thoughts and feelings get located in the other person because maybe they're too intolerable for her and it's sad, but it's just very unpleasant.

Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Fortunately and unfortunately Jim has always been the neutral party and the conflict diffuser in his family.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. No surprise. Also very common.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He's always been responsible for calming Mandy down and making her [00:39:00] feel comfortable. It wasn't until I heard other episodes of your show that I learned what Enmeshment was.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. This is textbook

Gabriel Mizrahi: that perfectly describes Jim and Mandy's relationship, and it gave me a name for the dysfunction I was witnessing. I brought this up with Jim and he was pretty receptive and agreed that it sounded like him and Mandy. He's done a lot of reflecting recently and has come to the realization that his family dynamic is not what he thought it was.

His religious and political views have shifted far away from what he grew up with and he's been feeling distant from his family.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it can be very jarring to suddenly see an old family dynamic. Clearly things can get bumpy when you pull away and try things in a new way, but it, it does sound like progress.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Although things have been okay for a while. We were recently faced with a conflict regarding his family. I am very outspoken on social media about my distaste for the Trump administration and the recent activities by ice. Unbeknownst to me, Mandy has been harboring ill feelings about what I've been posting and taking it personally [00:40:00] since their side of the family are Trump supporters.

It wasn't until, ah, this is interesting, Jordan. So everything we've been talking about up till now has been about like just basic family dynamics, but there's a political divide here that is probably driving a huge wedge between them. She said that Jim has been moving away from his family religiously and politically, so.

This is a whole other layer to the conflict. They probably feel like she is influencing him and taking him away from them, and that's probably making everything worse anyway, she goes on. It wasn't until last week when Mandy shared a picture of Trump and our family group chat with the caption Happy President's Day that I felt like there was an issue given her past behavior.

I felt like she shared that picture as a direct dig and to try to get a rise out of me. Jim felt the same. I ultimately ended up ignoring it because starting an argument about politics in a family group chat is not my style. But it brought up a lot of painful memories and feelings. It wasn't even about the Trump picture.

It was that I felt like she had cruel intentions when sharing it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Again, I'm fully on your side here with the [00:41:00] relationship dynamics, but I also wonder whether that was truly personal. I mean, maybe it was. I wouldn't put it past Mandy at this point, but I also think. When things are this bad with someone, it's easy to personalize and read certain things into behavior like this.

And if the whole family supports the president, then you know, maybe that had nothing to do with you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She could have just bang and sang it for all of them. Right? Yeah. It was about their team, not about her. Exactly. Yeah. And then that feeds a narrative that's getting stronger.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I think, and again, look, you may be totally right, but it's something to keep an eye on because it's, it's really easy to find.

Fault with people who are finding fault with you constantly. If you, if you're con, I mean, you're going to find what you're looking for and it, and it doesn't mean you're wrong, but it also might mean that you're super highly attuned. Your, your Mandy detector is over calibrated at this point, you know, so you're going to see a lot of that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Jim ended up calling Mandy the next day and told her to keep politics out of family stuff, and that if she starts conflict with me over this, he's taking my side and we'll be done with the family.

Jordan Harbinger: Damn. Okay, Jim, that's one way to do it. My man's had enough from the sound of it. I don't know if I would've drawn the line particularly [00:42:00] right here, but he's probably just had years and years and years of this and that was the straw.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That was the first time Jim ever truly put his foot down and drew a boundary with his family, and it gave me a confidence I didn't know I needed. Mandy surprisingly received this boundary well, but was still angry with Jim for quote, unquote letting me post the way that I do.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. That's a loaded statement.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Letting her post, damn. Yeah. That's a loaded, especially from a fellow woman. No,

Jordan Harbinger: all I can say is it's an interesting window into her values and beliefs. Fascinating. I mean, or it's, I don't know, may, it could be a typo, right? I don't know. Now we're reading into it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: After all was said and done, the call ended amicably, the boundary was set and we are letting things cool off for a while before we do any family related things in person.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Okay. So not too bad. This sounds like a win all things considered.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Not too bad. That sounds pretty good.

Jordan Harbinger: Maybe Mandy's a bit of a paper tiger. At least when Jim stands up to her. Who knows?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've been dealing with Mandy for eight years now. I'm pleased that Jim has finally reached this point, but as someone who has cut off her own family members [00:43:00] before, I know how challenging it is.

Jordan Harbinger: So she's had pretty serious conflict with her own family members. Okay. There's, there might be something there.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm. Let's come back to that. Given Mandy's personality and history, what is the best approach if slash when she violates this boundary? Jim is close to cutting ties with his family as it is, but is that really necessary?

Right away, signed a sister-in-law who's sensitive, looking for the right sedative to deal with this volatile relative without being argumentative.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy, lots going on here. So it goes without saying, having a relative like this, anyone in your life like this, extremely challenging. It's unpleasant. It's stressful.

It's not just the conflict, it's the coming up against a very delicate, fragile personality

Gabriel Mizrahi: and the feeling of having to adjust around their many pressure points to keep things on an even keel. Stressful.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, like I said, a very common template, sadly. Obviously it's not our place to diagnose anyone. We only have your story to go on, but it sounds like Mandy has some real personality [00:44:00] stuff going on here, and I agree.

Jim's family does sound quite enmeshed and that creates its own challenges, but that's not all that's going on here. If you want to know more, I would read up on BPD and the cluster B. In general, I'm sure a lot of light bulbs are going to start to go off once you do, but ultimately, your question isn't so much about Mandy, it's about how you interact with her, what she brings outta you, how to deal with her in a way that minimizes your conflict and pain.

The first thing I think you need to understand is Mandy is not going to change. Certainly not because of anything you do or say. I think you know that. But I want you to step into that reality fully here. I think the temptation with people like this is you want to stand up to them. You want to convince them of your point of view.

You want to make them see what it's like to be on the receiving end of their rage and their criticism. And I get it, but that's not going to happen when somebody like Mandy is activated. They are dealing with an intense emotional dysregulation, not a lack of rational evaluation. Trying to [00:45:00] logic them into calming down or being kinder or you know, not throw beer at people at the Tigers game and kick people in the front row that makes them feel invalidated or abandoned.

And that just escalates the anger. So the only answer with people like this is to just be, you gotta be very neutral. You basically validating and just draw simple boundaries if you talk to her at all. I wouldn't escalate with her. I wouldn't get into anything with her. The best thing you can say when conflicts flare up is stuff like, I can see you're really upset right now.

I can see how hurt you feel. I hear you that you have a different opinion from me, whatever it is. And I know that can sometimes just sound like nice words. Ideally you actually mean this stuff. It can take some work to get to a point where you validate somebody like Mandy and you actually mean it, even if you completely disagree with her and the boundary you're looking for.

In my view, it's pretty simple. It's basically, I'm happy to talk about this so we can hopefully resolve it, but I won't stay in the conversation if I'm being yelled at or attacked or criticized or whatever she's doing. If the yelling or attack or criticism continues, [00:46:00] then you follow through and disengage.

Okay, I'm going to step away now. If you want to talk about this in a different way later, I'm here for that. Admit, it's probably not always easy, especially for somebody who runs anxious like yourself, somebody who has a long history of traumatizing behavior from this person. But it's at least simple,

Gabriel Mizrahi: certainly easier than being attacked by someone who isn't actually trying to get anywhere productive with you, who just wants to project and rage, because it apparently makes her feel better.

Jordan Harbinger: For sure. And the more you do this, the easier it'll become. I promise. You're going to be building important muscles here, and those muscles are essential to existing peacefully with a Mandy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, let's talk about some of those muscles for a moment. First of all, I just want to say something about Mandy. I know we're coming down hard on her here, and obviously I think her behavior is atrocious.

She deserves to be challenged. She deserves to be held accountable. None of what you're describing is okay or healthy, but as we talk about all the time, anyone who behaves this way,

Jordan Harbinger: well, yeah, obviously they're in pain themselves.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Severe pain, right? All personality disorders are ultimately caused by trauma.

Early in [00:47:00] life. I don't know what happened to Mandy, but I'm sure something did or some combination of what happened to her and her wiring, whatever it was, and that sucks. BPD if that is what's going on here or if it, even if it's something adjacent to it or whatever that is, it often gets very stigmatized and criticized and I get it.

It's could be scary. It's a lot to handle, but it is all a response to pain. So, as much as I'm saddened by Mandy's behavior and the mark that it's left on you, I also want to make room for the fact that this person is a very troubled person, probably a very scared person, and she does have my empathy for that to some degree.

Not for the behavior, but for the cause.

Jordan Harbinger: No, I appreciate that, Gabe. You're right. I just struggle to understand how somebody like this could walk around shaming people for being quiet and sending 10 page texts about minor hiccups and not go, huh, what's going on with me? I should talk to someone,

Gabriel Mizrahi: right?

Like, how do you not go, I'm so angry and I'm pretty sure that I'm right and I'm the, you know, I have a good case to make, but if I'm feeling this angry, there must be some reason. Yeah. And maybe I need to figure that out. No, for sure. But the thing [00:48:00] is, for most people with BPD specifically, the central preoccupation is abandonment, like you said, Jordan, right?

Relatively benign events can feel like rejection. You know, any kind of distance feels like abandonment, especially if it's with a brother. You've been close with overly close with your whole life. What we would experience as disagreement can feel like attack, like betrayal. So the person's system is constantly scanning for signs that someone is about to leave or withdraw love, or paint them as a villain or whatever.

And the central beliefs are, there is something fundamentally wrong with me. If people really knew me, they would leave. And then, you know, there's this whole like unstable identity piece and shifting values and rapidly changing feelings. So it's really hard. So a lot of people have this feeling that the person with BPD is intentionally manipulative and sometimes they are.

But more often what seems intentional is mostly an automatic response born from a lot of pain, and specifically like a difficulty tolerating shame and this [00:49:00] swimmy sense of self that is kind of a hallmark of BPD and just a general lack of tools really for regulating distress. So I just wanted to take a moment to say that like Mandy is very hurt and remembering that is not just, you know, a compassionate thing to do.

It might make it easier to cope with her when she acts like this.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. So little of her behavior, arguably none of it really has to do with you, but then Gabe, it's aimed at her so it it's kind of personal, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. So that's true. And to be fair, it is kind of personal to a degree because she seems to be getting the brunt of it and she's attacking her for these very personal things like being quiet or whatever.

All that said, I also think that your responses to Mandy are very meaningful, like the ease with which she gaslight you, or actually, I like how she put it. I let her gaslight me, which is a good distinction into believing that you're a terrible person, that nobody likes you, your general discomfort in her presence, this constant scanning for the next conflict, which I can't say I blame you for after all of this.

And you know, like the way you grow quiet around her because you don't [00:50:00] feel safe. Which again, I totally understand. I think I have a very similar response around people like this, so I think that's normal, but the particular pain that Mandy seems to have wrought on you when so much of her behavior is ultimately revealing of herself, I think all of that.

Is very useful for you to explore because yes, you could say this is an unhealthy person who has brought out parts of me that are foreign and weird and stressful and just like, not like me. And maybe that's true, but I also find that certain personalities are particularly susceptible to the Mandy of this world.

And even that the Mandy's often look for certain personalities to project onto, and yours might be one of them

Jordan Harbinger: because she's kind. You mean because she's sensitive.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's part of it, but also because Mandy probably sees that she has a unique ability to get in with our friend here, to pierce her, right with her words.

I'm kind of wondering if maybe our friend here is a little too permeable herself.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I could see that. Like Mandy sees that she easily absorbs her emotions, so she keeps picking fights and [00:51:00] projecting onto her because she's an ideal vessel for all that stuff.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, vessel is a really interesting word.

That's exactly it. Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: She just wants to dump her emotions into somebody, like, into someone else,

Gabriel Mizrahi: and it's not just absorbing the emotions, but also taking blame easily, prioritizing harmony over self-protection, feeling responsible to some degree for making sure Mandy is okay.

Jordan Harbinger: Which by the way, it sounds like Jim and the rest of his family have learned to do too.

So she's not the only one who's falling into this dynamic.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point. It's another hallmark of certain personalities that they almost unconsciously and implicitly train a number of people around them to adjust to them in these ways. They end up kind of controlling the other objects in their lives sometimes without even realizing it.

So yeah, this does. Sound like the family way or whatever. But an interesting thing about people who project in this way also, they tend to both look for people who are natural vessels to project into. And they often bring out that quality in people, including in people who are generally [00:52:00] pretty sturdy and grounded in other parts of their lives.

Jordan Harbinger: The way it explained that like they make people permeable.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Basically there's a process, and it's especially common with Projecte personalities like Mandy's where the Mandy projects, and that starts to chip away at the other person's sense of their own boundaries, their own reality. At which point it becomes much easier for that person to start to identify with the projections.

So the Mandy goes, you're an awful person, you are cruel, you're rude, whatever it is. And the other person starts to go, wow, maybe I am awful, you know, maybe I am cruel. Was I rude? I must be rude if she feels that way. Might even start to be cruel or rude or assume that bullying role or rude stance to some degree.

In other words, to start to take on the very qualities and opinions that the other person is projecting.

Jordan Harbinger: Holy smokes. So fascinating. So when our friend here said, I let her gaslight me into thinking I'm a terrible person and that nobody likes me, that could be an example of what you're describing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think so.

She called it gaslighting. There is a bit [00:53:00] of that, but that's more of a maybe an intellectual process. Unconsciously it might be a dance between the two of them. The dance might be, Mandy can't tolerate a particular feeling or quality in herself, shame, aggression, hostility. She projects it into our friend.

You are the hostile one and through a very subtle, almost imperceptible process, but which is probably made up of, you know, like tone and behavior and these two people's personal histories. Mandy essentially induces our friend to feel or behave in a way that fits her projections.

Jordan Harbinger: I feel like this explains exactly the feeling I've had when I've brushed up against people like this, like.

They blame you for being somebody. You know, you aren't, and you know you're not that person, but you somehow end up feeling like that person and you can't figure out why.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, exactly. And it takes a lot of awareness and strong boundaries to not fall into that dynamic. And it's hard. It's really hard for everyone.

It's even hard for therapists. I mean, there's like a whole body of literature in the community about how therapists deal [00:54:00] with their client's projections 'cause it's very tricky.

Jordan Harbinger: Fascinating how these two puzzle pieces fit together.

Gabriel Mizrahi: All that to say anyway. Yes, validate Mandy as appropriate, draw boundaries with her.

Absolutely. Most experts agree that that is really the only way to relate to people like this. But I think what's really going to help here is building stronger internal boundaries, which means learning more about how this projection works, noticing how it feels as it happens to you. Then learning to be a less accommodating home for it.

Jordan Harbinger: As for Jim, no. I don't think it's really necessary for him to cut ties with his family right away. In fact, as difficult as Mandy is, I really hope it doesn't come to that cutting family members off completely. That should really be a last resort really. So much of the progress you guys are looking for is in a understanding these dynamics better, and B, learning to protect yourselves, which I think you're already seeing promising signs that that approach is working, which is excellent news.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I would also add, given Mandy's personality and probable wounds and how close she is with her brother, I think cutting her off would [00:55:00] be extremely painful for her and it would probably set them back quite away. I know it's hard. I know it doesn't feel like she deserves it, but what Mandy really needs is consistency of connection along with these boundaries.

She needs to feel that you guys are not going to leave her even as you say, I'm sorry, but I won't keep engaging with you if you're going to rate Jimmy.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. Yeah. My instinct would be to pull away hard from somebody like this, but I, I could see how that might work against their progress. But then I asked myself how likely is progress anyway and is it really their job to help Mandy get better?

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a fair question. I guess I would say. Like we often say it's not their job exactly, but the way they relate to her can make it easier or harder for her to realize that she needs to check herself and get better.

Jordan Harbinger: I hear that. I also feel like. She might benefit from realizing she's driving them away.

Gabriel Mizrahi: True.

Jordan Harbinger: But that, I don't know. That might be dark Jordan talking also, I'm just now remembering that you cut off some family members too. Obviously we don't know the details there. Maybe that was necessary.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Didn't she also say that she met Jim through her former best friend?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Her best [00:56:00] friend at the time.

That's right. Former best friend. Interesting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I mean, who knows what happened. There could have been anything. Maybe that friend moved away or maybe they, whatever. We don't know the details, but I think we're hearing a pattern in this letter of not having contact with people she used to have contact with.

So it's fair to ask, you know, what is that about?

Jordan Harbinger: Well, that's where I was going with this. I guess I wonder if maybe you are in the process of learning about a whole spectrum of approaches to difficult people between being enmeshed and cutting someone off completely, and if maybe cutting people off has felt like the only option in the past when these boundary approaches can do wonders.

Just something to think about.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Jim is also in the middle of an important shift of his own out of this enmeshment and into what sounds like his version of individuation, which is really great news. So important. He might be in a phase where he feels he needs distance from his family, like in terms of pure contact and also maybe ideologically and fair enough, but maybe his own distaste and frustration.

Maybe that's also making him feel he needs to take a very militant stance. Which I'm not entirely sure that he really needs. But my hope for [00:57:00] him is that he finds this boundary closeness as well in his own way. 'cause I think that'll change things for him and his sister.

Jordan Harbinger: Which reminds me, if you guys didn't catch it, I'd definitely go back and listen to our episode with Dr. Ken Adams. He's an expert in enmeshment, especially enmeshment between mothers and sons. But I think his insights apply to all kinds of enmeshment and families. His books are, are really great.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Episode 942. It's one of my favorites.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, we went hard in the paint on this one. Thanks for letting us go deep here.

I'm very sorry you're dealing with Mandy. I'm sorry that Mandy's dealing with you this way, but I also think she's teaching you some really important stuff about yourself and how to be with people like this, which is ultimately going to be super valuable sending you and Jim a big hug and wishing you all the best.

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You can sign up at Jordan harbinger.com/news. [01:00:00] Okay, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys. I live in a suburban neighborhood community of about a hundred houses and have a very problematic neighbor, let's call him Chad. Chad has a lot of resources and free time. He's now following his neighbor to and from work just for existing.

He's tormented countless neighbors and has made vague threats of violence, insinuating that there are firearms or concealed weapon permit reinstatements coming soon.

Jordan Harbinger: Reinstatements,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know if he meant reinstatements or reinforcements, maybe. I'm

Jordan Harbinger: not sure. No. Or renewals, but reinstatement. I don't know how this works in their state, but that almost implies that maybe he lost the permit at some point.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's what it sounds like.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It makes me wonder if he did something to lose it. I mean, maybe it lapsed, right? But I don't know. That could be useful somehow. Anyway, carry on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This neighborhood is less than 10 years old and he's forced multiple neighbors to sell and relocate. He has cameras all over the place, so I'm sure he's recorded his own shenanigans, but none of us can truly catch him [01:01:00] in the act.

Local PD are well aware of this man because of the many calls he is made. They keep saying they can't do anything about just being a jackass, but we all fear something will eventually escalate and one of us will become a sacrificial lamb. I've tried sending Latter Day Saints to his house in hopes he finds Jesus as well as anonymously signing up for real estate services, saying he's actively looking to find a place with property and a space for his exotic imported cars.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Even the Mormons couldn't help. Dang.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No. This guy's beyond saving, I think.

Jordan Harbinger: Have you tried Jehovah's Witnesses? I hear they're quite persistent.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know if that's going to do it. Jordan, something tells me this guy loves celebrating his birthday. So, uh, the letter goes on. I've reached out to plenty of neighbors who all have had experiences with Chad.

The neighbor he followed, filed a protection order, but no one else is willing to stick their neck out for fear of retaliation. This man has enough resources to just litigate stuff into infinity. I'm trying to figure out the most effective way to get the charges to stick and send him a message without [01:02:00] exposing us all to retaliation.

We all just want to be left alone so we can live our lives and play with our kids outside without the yammering and spewing as he perches on his balcony. What are your thoughts? What can we legally do to get this guy to leave us all alone and allow us to go outside in peace? Signed wondering what you would do here if you could, when in all likelihood the sky is going to keep terrorizing the neighborhood.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, what a piece of work. I hate stories like this. Super upsetting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I hate the fact that the police often can't or maybe won't do much until something truly terrible happens and it's like, thanks a lot guys. Thanks for waiting.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. At which point it's too late. I mean, you hear this all the time.

Basically the police, there'll be stalkers or something and it's like the people are like, the police refuse to do anything and basically they'll only come when there's a body in the yard. You know? Like they'll really only help with stuff like this when it's just too late. It's like, do we really have to wait for this psycho who might have done something to lose his concealed carry permit?

No less to shoot one of us for you to actually do [01:03:00] anything. If this were my neighbor and I was playing with my kids in the street, I would be very concerned. We wanted to run all of this by an expert. So we reached out to attorney and friend of the show, Corbin Payne.

New soundbite there felt appropriate, and the first words out of Corbin's mouth were yikes. Direct quote, another direct quote. The cops are being lazy or they're being wimps. They absolutely can charge Chad over threats slash assault. Of course, states title these crimes differently, but whatever version of putting a person in reasonable fear of harm, if it's specific and pointed or personal enough, pretty sure that's a crime.

Now, that doesn't mean a charge for Chad will stick. He can still defend himself, of course, but to quote cor, but again, getting arrested has a way of acting as a lovely blue light intervention.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I had never heard of that phrase, by the way.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, me neither. Apparently it's a term in the addiction world. The idea being some people get their wake up when they get arrested.

It's like an intervention, but done by the cops. Hence the blue lights. So Corbin had a few ideas for you. One idea, and I like [01:04:00] this one, hire a private detective. A Pi can follow this guy, document his malif factions, then testify to them either at a criminal hearing or at a civil restraining order. Hearing Corbin said a good one should be able to do most of this incognito, so it's not like super obvious and no blow back on you.

Now Chad might be a little on the paranoid side, so there's a good chance that he spots the Pi eventually and that'll likely up his paranoia. Corbin's. Other recommendation, no surprise here. Document, document, document. Whatever happens, whatever Chad's resources Corbin said, y'all will absolutely need to create a record of what he's been up to.

And the cops could definitely bring charges based on a credible report from a credible victim. But even then, Corbin said that this is the sort of case where a defense attorney, they're going to try to raise all kinds of cane, which is another great corbins by the way. Basically poke holes in the state's handling of things and lacking physical evidence.

That's one good way to poke holes. So you gotta get as much documentary evidence as possible. If that means investing in GoPro cameras or something [01:05:00] like that to put on your chest every time you go out, he would do that. If it means pulling your cell phones out and recording his ass every time he approaches or steps out in public, do that.

You know, whoever lives near him can put a camera facing his house. That's not illegal. Actually. Asterisk, consult your attorney. But yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: maybe uh, you could use those meadow ray band glasses Jordan mentioned a few weeks ago. 'cause if you had those on and he popped off and you just hit tap the side of the glasses, you start recording, you probably won't even realize that you're documenting all this.

Jordan Harbinger: That is a great idea. Anyway, whatever it takes to get hard evidence of this psycho popping off. Corbin said, if you can bring a tailor-made case to a police officer, prosecutor, or civil attorney before anything gets off the ground, the odds of getting somebody to take you seriously goes up tremendously.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Another way to document all of this is to just keep a running tally of Chad's crazy through what attorneys like to call a contemporaneous record of events. In other words, you can make a report of what happened shortly after it happened and date it to show it happened near the events in question. So Corbin had a cool solution for this.

He said, set up an [01:06:00] email account that the neighbors can send updates to. Chad popping off@gmail.com or whatever it is. That way, everything is in one place. It's automatically time and date stamp. It's a low risk, low friction method for people to start subtly documenting and pushing back on. Chad's crazy.

Jordan Harbinger: I love this. Every time Chad pops off, take a picture, type up some notes, email it to this email address, and bam, documentation time, date, all confirmed by the server. In one easy place we can hand to a prosecutor, big fan of this idea,

Gabriel Mizrahi: and if Chad is getting consistent pushback in the form of you guys recording him and documenting all this, he might just back down because he's no longer able to bully people with impunity.

Yeah, he might be crazy, but he also might not want to end up in jail.

Jordan Harbinger: Could put him on notice that he doesn't have carte blanche to just act like this whenever he wants. Yeah, and if you can't get any officials to take you guys seriously. Corbin said there's always the option of going to local media. If multiple people have complaints against Chad and or there's video of him menacing you guys, he said a local reporter may want to run with it as a human interest story.

I [01:07:00] think we've all seen those local news segments. Sometimes they go viral about a bunch of neighbors complaining about that, Karen or the psycho down the street. People love that stuff. So let's see how Chad feels with TV cameras shoved in his face. Or maybe even better, let's see how the local cops feel while being asked why they're doing nothing about the guy criminally harassing everybody on his block.

How about that, Chad,

Music Clip: catch me outside. How about that

Jordan Harbinger: Corbin's last idea for you? It's worth talking to a local civil attorney. He would advise you to look for somebody with litigation experience. Probably somebody who does divorces and family law. Those are the lawyers who do the most restraining order litigation cases.

A lawyer can advise y'all on how to proceed. They can also advise you all on what protections exist for people who file one of these cases.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Corbin also said that if you guys come in with a request for a restraining order, you can generally get one put in place while the case is pending. And if Chad violates it, then there are serious penalties involved, including convincing the judge that he is in fact a risk who needs a restraining order against him.

So [01:08:00] Coran pointed out that just knowing about some of these protections might make your neighbors feel safer about going on record.

Jordan Harbinger: I bet that would go a long way. 'cause right now they feel naked and ignored and Chad has all the power. But that could change real quick. You know the drill, call your state or county Bar Association, get referrals for those attorneys.

They're out there. I do have some final dark Jordan ideas. Ooh. Which I think you would expect. Let's hear for me to have of this particular kind of thing. Can't away. Let's do it. One idea is every one of you files a police report and or a restraining order against him. One for each of you. As long as he keeps doing stuff until there are so many, the police actually have to intervene.

Or when he finally does commit a crime, there's just a huge file on him and he gets in real trouble. You could even request a group meeting with your local police to show them, look, here's the incident. Log and documentation. Here are all the police reports we filed. Here are the 11 restraining orders we had to take out.

This isn't neighbors squabbling. This is one crazy dangerous guy versus the entire neighborhood. You guys gotta do something. Another idea is [01:09:00] you could foia, so Freedom of Information Act, you could FOIA request Chad's own police reports. My guess is he's abusing police resources at this point. Lying and saying, oh, trespassing noise violation.

And it's like, no, this is all bullshit. It's just fabricated nonsense. And so you could FOIA that and you would know exactly what he's saying about everybody.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So if you call the cops a million times on your neighbors for stuff that isn't really a problem, that's a crime.

Jordan Harbinger: If it's meant to harass, like if you're just saying they're being loud again, that's probably not a crime.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But if you're fabricating information or there's really nothing going on.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Uhhuh, the kids are trespassing on my lawn. Yeah, they've been on vacation for a week. You're just calling so that there's a police report in the system or that they're doing this and this. No, everyone's asleep. You just wanted the cops to knock on their door so that they had to wake up in the middle of the night and deal with it.

You're just using the police to harass your neighbors at this point. That is a crime that can lead to fines, mandatory restitution for wasted emergency resources. It can even lead to jail time if you keep doing it. Also, I don't know if you guys have an HOA where you live [01:10:00] neighborhoods less than 10 years old.

Seems like a new build, possibly has an HOA. But look, if you've got that, his cameras and other BS that might violate the ccn. Ours, he could be fined. He could be penalized if he doesn't pay, you can put a lien on his house. I realize that could antagonize him more, but that's an option. H HOAs don't mess around like you can.

If he doesn't pay those fines and remove the cameras or whatever's violating the CCNRs, you can foreclose that guy's house, then he's the one who's moving. I would also look into your city codes and see if any of his cameras, balconies, lights, property modifications, even where he parks his cars or how much noise he makes.

If any of that violates city codes, then you start filing regular city code complaints. Eventually, somebody from the city should respond and they're going to enforce the rules ruthlessly because they don't care about neighborhood politics. Last idea. When you talk to an attorney, ask them if they can send Chad one formal harassment warning letter from multiple households.

Then Chad's going to know like, oh snap. These people are organized. They have documentation. They're going to legally escalate. [01:11:00] They've already found somebody who will help them with that. Maybe I need to pipe down Now. I'm very sorry that you're dealing with this piece of work. People like this really are a cancer, but you gotta fight cancer to beat it.

So I hope you find some easy and safe ways to do that soon. Good luck. All right, now for the recommendation of the week,

Lip Filla Clip: I am addicted to lip Villa.

Jordan Harbinger: My recommendation of the week, I mentioned this earlier, the Garmin inReach Mini, I had the mini three on my trip. A lot of people rely on their cell phones for hiking, but we don't have service everywhere, especially if you go to national parks or something like that, or if you're outside North America, the SOS on your phone.

If you have an iPhone and you're like, oh, I I, I have the satellite thing on my phone. That won't work if you are not in the right place. Also, the antenna on that thing is not the same, so if you get into a scrape or you get lost or whatever, you're in a real pickle. You're in real trouble. Garmin uses a global network of satellites instead, so you can stay connected, even if you're off grid, you're in a remote area, in a random country, it's pretty clutch.

If you're an adventure traveler, [01:12:00] a hiker, mountain biker, mountaineer, thrill seeker, camper, boater, anything that'll take you to some weird places. Also, Garmin has $40 a year search and rescue insurance. They have higher plans if you're planning to get rescued off of mountains above, you know, 5,000 feet and things like that.

But if you need to get extracted from someplace, they will cover the cost of that up to a hundred grand. So if it costs 80 grand to get medevaced out of, I don't know, some desert somewhere, they'll cover that up to a hundred grand. I think I brought one of these to Saudi Arabia. I was able to stay in touch, didn't end up needing it for more than a few days, but I'll definitely be bringing this thing with me again if I ever go off grid again in the future.

They're not super cheap. It's like 300 to 500 bucks depending on the model you get, but you can't really put a price on, you know, being found alive and staying in touch with your family in a real emergency. Well link to the model I used in the show notes. I'm a big fan, it's a great company as well. Good customer service, good products, and I definitely recommend this if you ever go off grid.

It's just cheap insurance in all respects. [01:13:00] All right. Now we are going to Yammer and spew some deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by DeleteMe. DeleteMe makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable.

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They're all linked, searchable, and clickable on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. If that doesn't work, email usJordan@jordanharbinger.com. We'd love to dig up codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show now for the rest of feedback, Friday. Okay, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear s Bonita and handsome boy number one, that's uh, sen bonito.

Just FYI. Please do not misgender my bonito, if you would.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, come on. Gabe fought long and hard to come to terms with his bonito.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. Bonni. You can come all this way. You could put the

Jordan Harbinger: X on there. [01:15:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: Let me start by saying that I truly love and appreciate what you both do. I value your practical advice, the applicability of your episodes and the overall work you put out.

Jordan Harbinger: I take it back, you can call him Benita if you want. I didn't know you were a super fan.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've listened to every episode, including ones where I may not fully agree or even like what a guest is saying. I see those moments as opportunities to open my mind and possibly shift my perspective.

Jordan Harbinger: That is awesome.

I love that. I wish more people thought that way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm 26 years old and have been with my boyfriend now fiance for nine years. We just got engaged this past December and are planning our wedding for November, 2026. Yes, you are both invited.

Jordan Harbinger: That was obviously my first question. Also nine years, man. Holy smokes.

You are patient.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That means they met when they were 17.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that makes sense. You didn't rush into things. Good for you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My question actually about the wedding is, can I wear my cab Bonni hat?

Jordan Harbinger: I'm sure you can. You're going to look so Bonita in that hat at the wedding for your suit.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Thank you. I appreciate it.

I'll go with the black though, not the yellow, you know. Class it up a bit.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. [01:16:00] Let us know what the dress code is and if we need to book our own room or if we can just crash in you and your fiance's room. That only seems fair.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, since she loves the show so much.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Least she could do.

Let us sleep on the pullout couch in your matrimonial suite.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Give him a front row seat to the Bur and Ernie Show. They'll love that. She goes on. He is my first, in many ways, my first serious relationship. I've never really seriously dated anyone. To be clear, I'm reading the letter again. I'm not talking about Jordan.

Okay.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Thank you for clarifying. I was like, wait, what is, what do you, is there We need to talk about this off mic. Gabe? Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He is my first, in many ways, my first serious relationship. Relationship. I've never really seriously dated anyone else. My first love and the first and only person I've slept with.

Actually, that part is kind of true.

Jordan Harbinger: Hey, what happens in St. Louis stays in St. Louis.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm also his first in every way. First girlfriend, first kiss, and first and only person he's been with. He's my everything. He supported me through everything you can think of over those nine years, my mom being [01:17:00] sick, college and being lost after it.

A sexual abuse case in which I am a victim and which is still ongoing. Car accidents, pets passing, and family problems.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, you've been through a lot. I'm very sorry to hear about all this. Your mom and the sexual abuse case especially sounds very intense, very special that he's been there for you.

Y'all sound like a solid couple.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Even now he's supportive as I work a sales job with a hundred percent commission. Instead of using my degree in computer science and engineering, he's helped me stumble through life and deal with the overall hiccups. But all of this brings a few questions and fears to my mind.

One is, having dated other people, I've never had the desire to, but I often hear that experimenting is important. At the same time, I've seen relationships like ours work. So I'm curious about your thoughts. My second question is about preparing for a successful marriage. We plan to do couples counseling to make sure we're on the same page.

And a prenuptial agreement as recommended by your guest, James Sexton.

Jordan Harbinger: Smart. [01:18:00] Very few people have the, you know, what's the word? Pragmatism? Courage. The levelheadedness, I guess, to actually do a prenup even when they know it's logically the right thing to do. But that episode with, uh, James Sexton.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Episode 1035, by the way.

Yeah, very eye-opening, I would say.

Jordan Harbinger: Super eye-opening. The stats on divorce are so clear, and yet well, you know, no one wants to acknowledge they might feel differently about their spouse one day. If you're just being rational, practical, it's almost certainly the right thing to do emotionally. That's another story.

I know it's tricky.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have a lot of fears about what could go wrong. What if he dies? What if he gets curious about other women? What if one day he decides he wants kids?

Jordan Harbinger: Oh wow, that took a turn.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've never wanted kids for many reasons. I've discussed this with my fiance multiple times over the years and he's always said he's okay with it.

It's also something I plan to revisit in couples counseling.

Jordan Harbinger: Great. You absolutely have to pin this big stuff down early. There can't be definitely any ambiguity about stuff like this where things get very messy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I'm so glad you guys are doing couples counseling before you [01:19:00] get married.

Jordan Harbinger: Same.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's super smart.

I feel like most people should do that

Jordan Harbinger: same. I'm sure everyone would benefit from that train before the marathon.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That said, I don't see my stance on kids changing. If I were to end up with a child or two, so be it. But it's not part of my plan.

Jordan Harbinger: That's confusing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. She's never wanted kids, but if she ended up with them, she's cool with it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So does she not want them or not? I don't confused.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Usually people who don't want kids are pretty militant about it. Right. Not going to happen.

Jordan Harbinger: She's talking about it like it's not entirely up to her or something like, oh crap, I'm, here's two kids.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, if she doesn't want kids, I know. I know. A few good ways to not have them.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I also know one good way to have them, so maybe just avoid that if you don't want kids, and this is interesting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. But what's interesting about it that there's a part of her that might in fact want children,

Jordan Harbinger: you know, I'm honestly not sure. I suppose that's a possibility. Or at least she isn't totally against them.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or is it that there's a part of her that's willing to just leave this huge thing up to chance and what does that say?

Jordan Harbinger: But then she's saying, I don't see my stance changing, so [01:20:00] I'm just confused. Definitely something to pin down in therapy. There's something about this. It feels swimmy and conflicted somehow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My entire family knows this and is supportive of my decision. My mom especially, I feel like I've made my position very clear over the years, but his parents still talk about him having kids and their plans for when he does it can be annoying, but at the end of the day, it's not causing direct harm. I've talked to my fiance about it, he's noticed it too, but doesn't think much of it.

Jordan Harbinger: All interesting data.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Take some real do in to not think much of your family expecting something huge that you definitely don't plan on giving them though.

Jordan Harbinger: I agree. It's not that he necessarily needs to discuss all their plans with his family, but if they're expecting grandchildren and he doesn't plan on having any, I mean that conversation is probably coming one way or another,

Gabriel Mizrahi: or he is hoping they're just going to figure it out when 10 years go by and they haven't bought a bigger car just to live in a, in the one bedroom.

I don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: We obviously don't know her fiance. The picture I'm getting is that he's being a little wishy-washy too. I know it's hard with family. He probably doesn't [01:21:00] want to disappoint them

Gabriel Mizrahi: or it's just super awkward to talk about.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But I wonder if they're both tap dancing around something in different ways.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Do you think it's important to date or be with other people before getting married? Do you think we need to sit down and clearly discuss our decision around having kids with my fiance's family, or should we just let it be and allow them to say what they want? Beyond that, what do you recommend we do before and during our marriage to make it successful?

Signed? Trying to plot the things we ought to give good thought before we tie the knot.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. All super interesting. So first of all, I love that you're asking these big questions now, doing this work like in couples therapy, before you guys tie the knot, you strike me as a very thoughtful person, a very diligent person.

You've got your head on straight, you want to be responsible, you want to be fair to yourself and to your fiance.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Really fits with what she said about treating different opinions as opportunities to open her mind, possibly shift her perspective.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally. Yeah. I think it takes a certain curiosity, a certain humility,

Gabriel Mizrahi: empathy I think as well,

Jordan Harbinger: and empathy for [01:22:00] sure.

All of which are such great qualities in a marriage and all of which I imagine will make couples therapy very productive. So I really appreciate all that and well done on cultivating this mindset. So about dating other people before you get married, do I think that's generally helpful and healthy? To some degree I do.

Not because I think that, you know, everyone has to go through a hoe phase before they settle down. But just because having a few relationships, I think that kicks up a lot of useful data about a person, about how you operate in relationships, about your particular pressure points, about your needs, your values, other people's, where they align, where they diverge, and how to navigate all that.

And that can be very helpful. I think it can also avoid some regret. And what if thinking down the line, like, what else am I missing? Should I have enjoyed being single? Is this for sure the right person for me? Stuff like that. However, do I think dating a bunch of other people and sleeping around is essential to having a successful marriage?

No, I don't. And I also think that being in one serious, deep, [01:23:00] long-term relationship during a formative time, that also kicks up some really useful data about yourself. So either way, you get a valuable experience. If you found your person early and you guys are on the same page and you love each other and you share the same goals and values and all that, then hey, you just found your person early in life.

You could have a terrific marriage. I think the things that make a successful marriage, they probably have less to do with how many other people you dated and way more to do with the quality of your relationship, the process you guys tap into when you go through difficult stuff, how you guys handle certain questions or feelings, including this whole topic of being each other's firsts.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I totally agree. But that also depends on the personalities and the values and the backgrounds of the people involved. Right.

Jordan Harbinger: That's true. That's a huge variable.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, for some people having a variety of experiences or developing an identity without a romantic partner, that's super important to them.

For other people, finding the right person early and being in a partnership and investing mostly in that, that's the priority. So that changes the opportunity costs for the person

Jordan Harbinger: for sure. And so [01:24:00] it's hard to know what our friend here needs. Is she asking this question because intellectually she knows it's a fruitful question to ask, a responsible thing to get out in front of early?

Or is she asking this question because there's a part of her that's longing for these other experiences and she knows it might eat away at her down the line?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's a really good question for her to ask. Although she said I never really had the desire to date other people, so that might be the answer right there.

And also nothing she said in her letter suggests that she might pump the brakes on getting married or end this relationship so she can go be single for a while. No. So that's not going to happen.

Jordan Harbinger: No.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I guess I wonder where that leaves her. I mean, if we had come back and said, yeah, you definitely need to date other people before you get married.

What would she have done with that?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, I guess she could have thought about it and disagreed or she might have heard that and gone, well, shit, now what do I do? I don't know if I can get married.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's assume that she is not going to end this amazing relationship to go be single for a while, which I cannot say I advise based on her letter and let's say that they go through couples counseling and they come out even stronger and there are no huge problems in their relationship.

TBD on the kids thing, we'll talk about that in a [01:25:00] second. Then maybe part of their journey together will be working through some of these feelings when they come up, whatever they might be, regret, conflict, Gelt, confusion. Just like a vague wondering. I think they could have an amazing marriage and still contend with those feelings from time to time.

And so I guess the question for me is how do they process them? What conclusions do they draw from them? Can they explore them safely and satisfy them in other ways together? Or do they just kind of need to make peace with them together?

Jordan Harbinger: I don't know the answer really. I, I think most people, no matter their history, deal with these feelings and conflicts to some degree, even when they're in a happy relationship.

I hesitate to say this because I know I just said it's not essential to having a great marriage, but avoiding regret, conflict, Gelt, confusion, the kind that can eat away at you or chip away at a relationship, that's just a huge reason. I think dating around actually is important. Maybe I'm contradicting myself a little bit, but I just want to keep it real.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I hear that and and I actually agree, but I guess what I'm saying is how much those feelings eat away at somebody, whether they [01:26:00] really chip away at a great relationship. I do wonder if that's largely up to them. And by that I mean it's up to them to understand themselves before they get married, and it's up to them to develop a language and a process to talk about this stuff when it comes up, which by the way, might include just being able to acknowledge these feelings with each other, as strange as that might sound.

I imagine that one way these feelings can corrode a relationship is when one or both parties feel that they're taboo somehow. Like they're too hurtful or scary to call out with the other person. Whereas being able to say, Hey, I love you so much. I want to be married to you. I'm so glad I found you when I was 17, and I don't know, sometimes I wonder what my whole phase would've been like.

You know, sometimes I wonder if I developed enough as a single person before I met you. Although I would hope you guys would talk about this before you get married, of course. But like if that's a thought that's coming up, that's a legitimate thought and it might be fruitful to explore with your partner, whatever.

It's

Jordan Harbinger: oof. That's real. But that's hard.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It is hard. I totally get that. And also, not everyone wants to have those conversations, so that's fine if you don't. But I, I guess what I'm saying is just being able [01:27:00] to say something like that, not in service of breaking up or I don't know, opening the marriage or anything like that, just in service of being fully honest.

That might close the gap that these thoughts and feelings can create between two people. That's not all they have to do to survive them. But I do wonder if that's a big part of it.

Jordan Harbinger: I hear that. And if they respond well to those chats, like if he can go meet those feelings in a helpful way that might make her go, man, this really is my person.

I'm so lucky I found him early.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's actually what I'm saying is that it might go a long way in resolving that same regret or Gelt or shame that she's worried about encountering because she was never single before him. Ex. Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: So interesting how that works. Just one of the many things they can explore in couples therapy.

So let's talk about how to handle the kids thing with your fiance's family. Gabe, I'm, I'm way lesser about this one.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Same. Not as clear cut.

Jordan Harbinger: Part of me is going, eh, it's not really their business when or whether you guys are going to have kids. You don't have to keep them apprised of your procreation plans.

And another part of me is like, well. They keep bringing it up so they obviously think it's going to happen. And if [01:28:00] that's not in the plans, it would probably be nice to let them know so they can let go of that idea. Not to mention it's going to be way less stressful for you guys 'cause it's not going to be like, what are we having kids?

It's like, okay, we talked about this and we can all sort of accept reality. Now,

Gabriel Mizrahi: what concerns me most about this isn't so much that the parents might have a different wish for them kids wise, but what it might say about her fiance's true feelings about children and what it might say about his way of handling tough conversations with his family in general.

Jordan Harbinger: Bingo. Like, does this mean he secretly wants them, but he's afraid to say that because he knows she doesn't? Or does this mean that he doesn't want them either, but he doesn't have the stones to tell his parents. Sorry guys. That's not what we want. Just wanted to let you know

Gabriel Mizrahi: exactly. But either way.

Jordan Harbinger: Couples

Gabriel Mizrahi: therapy. Couples therapy, yeah, I'm really glad they're going. Even if they're totally aligned on the kids thing in the end, which is still a bit of an if for me, but even if they are, these skills are still going to be so important in the marriage.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. Even more, I hasten to add than having banged a bunch of people before you met, just to put you at some ease there.

But look, if you guys talk this [01:29:00] out and decide, yeah, we definitely don't want kids, then I think you probably need to tell your in-laws at some point. 'cause like I said, that conversation is coming one way or another and it is awkward and it's kind of sad. They're hoping for grandchildren, they might not get them.

I feel kind of like they deserve to know at some point.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, by not telling them, they're also making it worse, right? Because one day this is going to come to a head, his parents are going to ask point blank or they're just going to figure it out and then they might go, oh cool, so you just lied to us about this for 12 years.

Appreciate that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah, exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Rip off the bandaid I say, and maybe that'll be an instructive conversation for you guys, or at least for him. How you communicate your decisions and values to other people, how you navigate conflict. But I wouldn't do it till you guys are truly clear on the kids thing.

I'm still confused by that thing you said, how if you ended up with kids, so be it. Maybe I'm missing something, but if that speaks to any confusion or indecision here, I'd run straight toward that in couples therapy and try and figure it out. And look, if you're like, well, we're 90% sure we don't want them, but who knows?

Maybe in five years we'll feel differently. We're leaving room for that. That's fair too. I'm [01:30:00] not saying you need to be militantly or black and white, sort of pro or anti having kids, but that's a position.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And is that a position you would share with these in-laws?

Jordan Harbinger: They could. They could say, look guys, we know you're excited for us to have kids, but we're 90% sure we don't want them.

We don't want to get your hopes up, but we are leaving some room that will change our minds, but probably we won't. And we wanted to let you know so you could know where we stand and adjust your expectations. I think that's fair.

So you're telling me there's a chance? Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think it also depends on what his parents are like.

If they're the type of people who hear that there's a 10% chance that they'll change their minds, and then for the next decade they send them articles about how important it is to have kids and they point out all the cute babies at the restaurant and Gelt their son into doing it for them. Then I would say, hmm, maybe don't share all the nuances with them.

Maybe you just say, I'm really sorry guys, not in our plans. But if they're generally cool and respectful, and well boundaried, if you think that they're going to respond okay to this, I don't know if they will, but if they're those kind of people, then there's less [01:31:00] risk in letting them in on every nook and cranny of your position on kids.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, good point. Although, knowing what I know about older parents, I think most people who hear there's a chance their kids will change their minds about this, will probably hold out hope that they'll do it and might use that 10% to kind of crowbar their way in and push 'em to do it, even if they're not overtly manipulative.

So just keep that in mind. As for what you guys should do before and during your marriage to make it successful. Big question. I'm getting a little sweaty over here. Is this really all on us, Gabe? It's a bit much.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She did invite us to the wedding, so

Jordan Harbinger: yes. And as you've heard on the show, we are the gift.

Okay, that's right. So I guess it is on us. So I just really, I have big picture thoughts and we've already touched on the most important ones. First and foremost, get on the same page about the kids thing and also get clear on how you would handle it if one of you changes your mind, if that's maybe in the cards, always a risk.

Second, I would focus in therapy on developing good conflict resolution muscles, how to listen, how to empathize, how to make room for the other person's feelings and positions while staying connected to [01:32:00] yours. Any couple needs to have that process to succeed. 'cause there will always be challenges and conflicts.

You guys have already been through some big ones and how you move through them, that's everything.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm also just thinking about everything they've been through together, her mom being sick, this sexual abuse case, which sounds very intense. Family conflicts, physical accidents, some existential stuff again.

Very special that your fiance has supported you through all of that. And by the way, another point in the why, it's awesome to find your person early in life column, by the way. But I would also make time in couples therapy to talk about how those experiences might have shaped you guys as a couple, how they might be showing up in the relationship now in any way.

Jordan Harbinger: I know we talk about this idea all the time, and I don't mean to beat a dead horse, unfortunate turn of phrase, uh, drop this horse out again. But one of the themes of their relationship is grief. Grief around mom and her illness. Perhaps some grief around the person she was before this tragic abuse, grief around pets, around family, how a couple moves through grief together.

That's also huge. And that's another thing you guys might want to continue to [01:33:00] focus on. Making lots of room for mourning in all of its forums, big and small.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, I'm really glad you brought this up because I do wonder if one source of grief our friend here is dealing with isn't just not having had a hoe phase for the sake of having a hoe phase, but grief around not having an experience of herself as an unattached person who could have any number of experiences for a while.

And that's a question, not just of romantic variety, but of identity. She's talking about an another self and how that self might have shaped the self she is now in this timeline. So I think there's a good argument to be made that this self, this timeline that she's in is pretty great and that she's very lucky to have met her future husband so early.

A lot of people would kill for that, but that's absolutely compatible with mourning these other versions of her life. What now can never be because she met her future husband at 17 years old.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. I do think getting to move through these developmental stages in a way that's our birthright, so I can understand why not having that period would bring up some big feelings for her, even if she [01:34:00] found her person, and I actually think it's appropriate and actually quite healthy for her to make room for them.

She gets married.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There's mourning even in joy, you know, for all the other joys that are incompatible with this one,

Jordan Harbinger: and so that regret, Gelt conflict, confusion, those feelings we were talking about earlier, those might be symptoms of precisely this grief that you're talking about and me advocating for the HO phase, so to speak.

Now that you've frame this as grief. I guess being single AF for a while, maybe that's largely a way for people to sidestep this future grief.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's a really good point. I do think that's a big part of it and why couples therapy is probably going to be a great space for them, but also you can't sidestep that grief completely.

It just exists alongside all of the happiness that they're going to get to share.

Jordan Harbinger: But listen, congrats on finding your person so early. Congrats on becoming the kind of person who's doing the work to be with your person in the best way. It's really cool to read about. Very inspiring. I do have high hopes for you guys and yeah, you can consider this my RSVP?

Yes. To your wedding. Gabe? I don't know. He looks TBD to me right now. Probably dealing with some grief about what other event I'll have to give up in order to [01:35:00] attend yours. This is a sound bath and play at O Carmen or something on the same day. An outdoor screening of a snuff film from the Weimar Republic.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know what? That is more my speed these days. I know you're absolutely correct, but what are you talking about?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. By the way, we're totally kidding about crashing your wedding, but thank you for the invitation

Gabriel Mizrahi: also about the snuff films that I No, that part was real watch with. Oh, okay. Cool, cool, cool.

No, the Weimar Republic famously fire snuff films

Jordan Harbinger: for

Gabriel Mizrahi: that epic

Jordan Harbinger: look. I'm not allowed within a hundred feet of an open bar anyway. It's probably outta range for my ankle monitor, so we can't go.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What is that ankle monitor or Garmin?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, weirdly, they don't make ankle monitors yet, but they'd probably crush that segment too.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What if she, uh, let us give a toast at her wedding and we just read her Feedback Friday letter.

Jordan Harbinger: I think that's a great idea. When Annie wrote us saying that Greg's parents didn't know, they don't want kids. Y'all have had that conversation, right? You took our advice. Right. Anyway, since they're for sure going to be dinks and yuppies,

Gabriel Mizrahi: this toast is going to crush.

Grandma is going to love it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Look, Gabe and I can be your kids. Just put us in the will. Happy morning, happy marriage. Sending you and your dude a big hug and wishing you all [01:36:00] the best. Go back and check out Mariana van Zeller if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network.

The circle of people I know, like and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our Six Minute Networking course. The course is free. It is not gross. There's no shenanigans, there's no hitch, there's no catch. 22. It's all free on the Thinkific platform. At Sixminutenetworking.com, the drills are designed to take a few minutes a day.

I wish I knew this stuff a couple decades ago. Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them again, all free at Sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own.

I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the [01:37:00] show. Ditto Corbin Payne. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, I hope you'll apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview with Jamie Mustard, who signed a billion year contract at age five, while he still believed in Santa Claus, and spent his childhood inside Scientology's Sea org, where kids were warehoused like livestock and denied even basic education.

JHS Trailer: The story of the Lost Children of Scientology has never been told, and I really do believe if people knew what happened to us in the seventies, eighties, and nineties, what happened to us kids in that environment? They would stop it. There's a line for the suffering of children. By the age of five or six years old, I just basically started to go completely numb.

These thousands of kids, they have autoimmune disease. They're all doing construction, most of them. Some of the more successful ones get lucky because they become contractors. But [01:38:00] if people knew what happened to us, which is the story that I wrote, that people would stop, it would be the end. On the day of my birth, I was handed over to a religious paramilitary organization and high control authoritarian group in a slum tenement where I spent the first two and a half years of my life with little to no human touch.

And that would be the beginning of pretty much a 20 year gauntlet where I wouldn't go to school and I would literally be analyzed. We weren't looked at as anything of value until we could work or contribute labor. I never went to school the age of 20. I could barely write characters, and I didn't know how to use a comma or construct a sentence or a paragraph.

The reason I never spoke out is what I write about that happened to me. It's humiliating. I don't want anyone to know any of the things that we've talked about today. I mean, I think Scientology is the most sophisticated mind control system probably in the history of the human species. I'm starting for the first time in my life to be shame free.

Jordan Harbinger: To hear what [01:39:00] happened during the largest FBI raid in US history, which makes you wonder how this all stayed hidden in plain sight and when he finally escaped, nearly illiterate, at age 19. Check out episode 1270 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.