Should you endure a toxic marriage for the sake of your son’s relationship with his father, or run for the hills while you can? Welcome to Feedback Friday!
And in case you didn’t already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at friday@jordanharbinger.com. Now let’s dive in!
On This Week’s Feedback Friday, We Discuss:
- You’re contemplating leaving your narcissistic addict husband due to his poor treatment of you and your child, but you feel trapped financially and concerned about your son losing his father. Should you try to reconcile and accept him the way he is, or run for the hills while you can?
- Betrayed by a lifelong friend who used you in an eBay scam and left you financially accountable to his victims, you found closure years later at a party by forgiving him and letting go of your own negative emotions about the situation. But you can’t help but wonder if you should’ve just punched him in the face. Did you do the right thing?
- After years of caring for your late mother’s boyfriend like family, you feel disrespected when you’re labeled as a vendor at a granddaughter’s wedding, highlighting the family’s lack of appreciation for your efforts. Are you still expected to bring a gift, or should you send them an invoice the day after the wedding for taking care of their grandfather?
- Your close relationship with your daughter’s ex-boyfriend, now reformed from the issues that facilitated their breakup, causes tension with your married daughter, forcing you to choose between transparency or secrecy to preserve your bond. Should you continue to “sneak around” with your daughter’s ex, or just be honest and let the chips fall where they may?
- You’re a Canadian mom worried about your 18-year-old daughter’s real-life meetup with the 23-year-old American boyfriend she met online. How can you ensure her safety (on the off-chance he might be a human trafficker or drug fiend) without damaging your relationship by being seen as overbearing?
- Have any questions, comments, or stories you’d like to share with us? Drop us a line at friday@jordanharbinger.com!
- Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.
- Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi and Instagram @gabrielmizrahi.
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Miss our conversation with nonverbal communication expert Joe Navarro? Catch up with episode 135: Joe Navarro | How to Identify and Protect Yourself from Harmful People here!
Resources from This Episode:
- Jonathan Haidt | How Gen Z Became the Anxious Generation | Jordan Harbinger
- Laughter is Life’s Lubricant | Feedback Friday | Jordan Harbinger
- More Than a Bead Store | Beadahs
- Zimride | Wikipedia
- It’s Not You: Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People by Ramani Durvasula PhD | Amazon
- Dr. Ramani | Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People | Jordan Harbinger
- Dr. Ramani | How to Protect Yourself from a Narcissist Part One | Jordan Harbinger
- Dr. Ramani | How to Protect Yourself from a Narcissist Part Two | Jordan Harbinger
- Gavin de Becker | The Gift of Fear Part One | Jordan Harbinger
- Gavin de Becker | The Gift of Fear Part Two | Jordan Harbinger
- Forgiveness Is for You, Not Anyone Else | A Lust For Life
- Déclassé Definition & Meaning | Merriam-Webster
- The Most Ridiculous IKEA Product Names (and What They Mean) | Flavorwire
- The Great Gatsby (2013) | Prime Video
- Wedding Gift Etiquette: Your Complete Guide To Gifting | The Wedding Shop
- Wedding Vendor Etiquette Every Couple Needs to Know | Brides
991: Should You Coexist with a Manchild Narcissist? | Feedback Friday
This transcript is yet untouched by human hands. Please proceed with caution as we sort through what the robots have given us. We appreciate your patience!
[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback. Friday producer guru of Goodwill, generously granting golden guidance. Gabriel Mizrahi. Wow, alliteration on point today. You know how we do gotta hit those consonants way too many times, baby. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.
[00:00:28] Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from hostage negotiators to Russian spies and drug traffickers, astronauts, CEOs, generals, and tech luminaries. On Fridays though, we share stories, offer advice, weave together the OMG and the LOL and of course mercilessly roast Gabriel for, well, first of all, cross-dressing for the most important conversations of his life.
[00:00:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Apparently, I am never gonna live that one down,
[00:00:56] Jordan Harbinger: am I? No. First of all, we got like a hundred emails about it and dms and LinkedIn messages. It's so no. As long as my name is on this podcast, the Vermilion shirt, or shall I say, blouse shall live on forever. You don't, do you still have that thing by the way?
[00:01:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, no, no, no. It's long gone. Probably keeping a very happy lady warm somewhere that's right in the world. There's a librarian somewhere that's like, I just love this. I
[00:01:19] Jordan Harbinger: can't believe I found this in
[00:01:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: goodwill. Some lady wearing it to her knitting circle is so happy with this purchase. What a, what a philanthropist you are.
[00:01:26] I
[00:01:26] Jordan Harbinger: hope you washed off all the existential dread sweat out of it before donating it to go to the shingle sweat. Before donating it to Goodwill?
[00:01:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, I left all the shingle pustules in the, in the, when I gave it to Goodwill. Um, it's funny, somebody wrote me asking if the wool suit that I wore on top of it was also a man's, or was that also a women's?
[00:01:49] I can tell you with 100% certainty that the suit was a man's, and I know that because my pantyhose underneath it fits so well. There's just no way that that was for another gender. But, uh, thank you for checking. I appreciate that. Oh, Jordan, another funny thing happened this week I wanted to tell you. So the other day I was putting on my bracelets, you know the, the ones, the, the yoga cult guru one?
[00:02:13] Yeah. Those like
[00:02:13] Jordan Harbinger: speed DSM bands or whatever that I see you wearing. Sometimes I don't,
[00:02:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know what they are. Same set as those bracelets. Yes. So I was pulling it closed and I have to do it with my teeth, you know, how on brand is that? But okay. I was pulling in clothes with my teeth and the band snapped and all the beads went flying everywhere.
[00:02:30] So I had to go take it to my bead shop to get it repaired.
[00:02:33] Jordan Harbinger: Your your bead shop? Yeah, I got a bead guy. You got a bead guy.
[00:02:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know you gotta have a bead shop when you live this lifestyle. Of course. Wow. You have a bead guy. So I brought it to my favorite bead shop in Santa Monica. It's this place called Betas on Ocean Park and it's owned by this super sweet couple.
[00:02:48] Shannon and Mike. They sell beads and gems and jewelry and incense or, or you can sit there and you can make your own piece and they'll help you. And they also host, you know, like parties, birthday parties and bachelorette parties, events, basically. I love this place. It's like heaven on earth.
[00:03:03] Jordan Harbinger: As long as they don't claim anything is magical.
[00:03:05] I'm, I'm fine with it, but I'm still wrapping my head around the fact that my co-host has a, a bead guy. Bead guy is, uh, bead guy
[00:03:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: is a, ah, bead people plural. Excuse me. So the last time my bracelet broke, Shannon fixed it and we sat there together while she repaired it. And we had this really cool chat about life and her and beads, old dissertation and how she got into beads.
[00:03:25] Yeah. And I was like, okay, you're officially my bead person now. I love you guys. So anyway, I dropped the bracelet off last week and then a few days ago I picked it up. Mike Shannon's husband was like, Hey, I, I knew your name sounded familiar. I listened to feedback Friday.
[00:03:39] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, no way. He's a show fan. That's awesome.
[00:03:41] I feel 1% more worse about making fun of the fact that they're your bead people since the show fans. But I stand by. I stand by the rest of it. So cool though. Right.
[00:03:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: And they were so nice. They actually repaired the bracelet free of charge, which was so kind of them, they didn't have to do that because they had done it once before and they stand by their work 100%.
[00:03:58] Oh, and then I bought. Like $30 worth of incense for my trip to Brazil and leaving on soon, and they have the coolest fragrances. I had never heard of some of these scents. They were like fragrances I didn't even know existed.
[00:04:10] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you're just not doing yourself any favors in the cliche department game, but I, I can, I can get behind good incense.
[00:04:16] The problem is there's so much bad incense that smells like, you know, bathroom air fresheners, and you can just tell it's toxic. But the good stuff is, is quite nice.
[00:04:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: They had the good stuff. They had the bougie stuff. Mm-Hmm. Uh, anyway, I'm hearing myself say all this and I'm just like, I deserve all the roasts.
[00:04:29] You do. Yeah, I know. But anyway, just to say if you live in LA and you need to repair a bracelet or I don't know, you wanna buy some cool gems or you need a gift for somebody, betas in Santa Monica. This place is awesome. And shout out to Shannon Leonard and Michael King. Thank you so much for listening to the show.
[00:04:44] You guys are so sweet. In addition to being amazing at what you do, you guys are just adorable and super sweet. And thank you for sending me off to Brazil with a new bracelet and enough funky incense to, uh, earn an extra invasive patdown at airport security because I'm a bee. It's gonna be Dan in the TSA live.
[00:05:01] Yeah.
[00:05:02] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It's gonna be quite the blend. Happy to have you in the show, fam Mike, um, slash Mike and Shannon. Thanks for keeping my co-host ba bracelet. So, hey, before we dive in, I also remembered a funny story this week. It's a, it's a maybe a little slightly different type of adventure. Years ago when I was in my twenties, I took this ride to va It is it called Zim Ride and it was this app.
[00:05:25] Oh yeah, Zizi. Oh, you remember it? Okay. 'cause I was like, nobody used this.
[00:05:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: That kind of became Lyft, right? Or was Lyft or something.
[00:05:30] Jordan Harbinger: It did, yeah. So for people who don't know, it was a ride share service where people would catch rides with other people from one city to another In Zimride, right. It became Lyft.
[00:05:40] I don't know how they made money. I don't remember him paying me through the app. Maybe he did. And then Lyft sold Zimride and now it doesn't exist anymore. So I put my car on there and I'm like, Hey, I'm going to Vegas on this date. Like maybe this will work. You know? Then I was to drive by myself. He paid for half the gas, or maybe it was all the gas.
[00:05:56] I forgot. Wait,
[00:05:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: you matched with a guy, so you matched with a guy who was also going to Vegas.
[00:06:00] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, he is like, I need to go to Vegas and I'll, I'll hit a ride with you and like, and you both got it. Okay, cool. And he is like, I pay you a certain amount of fee. And then also half the gas, I can't exactly remember the fee arrangements irrelevant here because he drove all the way with my blessing because there was a ton of traffic.
[00:06:16] We're going to Vegas on like a Thursday or a Friday and we're talking the whole time. And this dude, he looked like Jacked Morrissey, kind of like, he was just really, really strong looking like dude who was kinda look, I mean he had a look about him. And I was like, all right, well okay, it's kind of funny 'cause we'd stop for gas and I'd be like, do you mind giving me the keys just so like you don't leave without me 'cause I don't really know you.
[00:06:37] And he is like, sure, no problem. Whatever. Okay, cool. And he was, he was really cool about that. And I felt kind of bad asking, but it's like, well it is my car. So he took this crazy back route to Vegas because he's like, look man, we can take whatever route you want, but I know a route around this traffic. So he took this back route around some literal dirt roads and like sandy patches in the roads and it shaved a ton of time off the ride and was amazing.
[00:07:00] And I really wish I'd saved the route somehow. But the whole time, I'm like texting my girlfriend at the time and I'm like, FYI like, here's where I am and this is the mile marker. 'cause I don't know, like we're in this weird area and she's like, uh, okay. And I like lose service occasionally. And then halfway through the ride, we're in the middle of the desert.
[00:07:17] There's maybe like a trailer on the horizon and like cacti, literal cacti and nothing else. And one lane road. And I'm like, how do you know about this route? And he goes. Oh, it's quite a story, you know? And he like, won't tell me. And I'm like, for real though? How do you know the route? And like, as we get back into civilization ish, I mean, and I'm by civilization, I mean now there's trailer parks in the distance and like bikers are passing us, and I don't mean cyclists.
[00:07:45] I mean like motorbikes. The packs of motorbikes. And he goes, yeah, well, okay, we, we know each other for a few hours now. You, you know, we're, we're cool. We're going to Vegas. I used to run meth with a biker gang and I used to take this route with the Mongols or whatever it was. It was like the Mongols or So like a biker
[00:08:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: gang.
[00:08:04] Yeah, like a real biker gang. A literal
[00:08:05] Jordan Harbinger: Sons of Anarchy type of gang. Mm-Hmm. And I'm like, oh, cool, cool, cool. Yeah, I'm driving to Las Vegas with a former. Gang member, drug dealer, who's probably disappeared more than one person right out in this very area of the desert in various holes that were dug for like mine shafts a hundred years ago and are still there.
[00:08:24] You're like,
[00:08:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: great, great, great. Tight to tight. Yes. I mean, season five, breaking mad.
[00:08:27] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, totally fine. Uh, over here. But it turned out of course, that he had left all that behind. He owned a motorcycle shop and he had kids and a wife and lived in, I guess I could say a Henderson, which is like an upper middle class suburb of Las Vegas.
[00:08:41] Mm-Hmm. And yeah, so I'm lucky I'm not six feet under in the desert, but I have to say, that guy was really interesting. Dude. You should have him on the show. I should have had him on the podcast flat out. Yeah. I, I even thought about it 'cause this is probably like 2012 or 2013 I was doing the show. Mm-Hmm.
[00:08:57] He would've definitely fit into like today's version right. Of the show, but I would never do anything like that again. I filed that pretty much immediately under dumb Kid ideas. Keeping myself open to new experiences. Okay. It's brought me a lot of color to my life. You and I, we went to North Korea a couple times and stuff, but I also realized that I could have gotten killed doing some of this stuff.
[00:09:20] That's kind of my brand, I guess. But now that I've got kids, that stuff is way behind me. But I think about that now and I'm like, oh my God, I hope my kids don't do some stupid crap like that.
[00:09:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. In a way, this is a nightmare and in another way it's a great endorsement for Zim Ride. That's right. Zimride of sad that it doesn't exist anymore.
[00:09:35] Jordan Harbinger: You probably won't get buried in the hole in the desert, but no guarantees. What we do guarantee is your per the person will pay for half the guests on the way to your on timely death. All right. Gabe, what's the first thing out of a mailbag?
[00:09:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. My husband and I have been married for eight years, have known each other for over 10 and have a 7-year-old child together.
[00:09:55] I. My husband claims to have been addicted to video games since he was three, and I didn't understand or accept that for a very long time. He also says that he's addicted to alcohol and all kinds of technology, but can also get really fixated on things like collecting CDs or playing board games. He also has some major issues with sex.
[00:10:16] He disregards my lack of interest, my mood, or my non-consent practically all the time.
[00:10:23] Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy. The last comment, so that's dark. Can't tell how overtly violent this is, but even if it's not, I mean, this is like, you know, it's not Okay. Sorry to hear this.
[00:10:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: He tried therapy a few times and for the last three years has been doing one specializing in addictions.
[00:10:37] His therapist suggested that I should start therapy for my codependency, and I did. I never realized that I was codependent before, but apparently I'm showing some symptoms along with chronic anxiety. Hmm. Well that's a big discovery.
[00:10:50] Jordan Harbinger: Good on you for being willing to give therapy a try. Confronting this stuff.
[00:10:54] That's excellent. Codependency and addiction often go hand in hand, so I can appreciate that you're doing the work here too. It'd be really easy to be like, well, you're the addict, so you do therapy. Right. And just sit there and wait for results that may or may not come.
[00:11:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: She deserves a lot of credit for that.
[00:11:07] I agree. So she goes on. We also started couples therapy together, but I can't say I really see any progress, and I could say the same about my husband's individual therapy. I. He always half-ass things that require real effort. We spend most of our time there discussing his latest benders and he gets really frustrated because it feels like he's always the bad guy.
[00:11:27] Hmm, okay. Oh, it feels like he's always the bad guy or he is kind of the bad, uh, whatever takes two to tango. But yeah,
[00:11:33] Jordan Harbinger: it feels like I'm always the bad guy when I sexually assault you and don't listen to anything you say and go out all night and don't come home until 10 in the morning, takes two to tango when I'm abusing you, but okay.
[00:11:42] Exactly.
[00:11:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: In our daily life, we tend to go through a cycle. As long as we're having sex, everything is quote unquote fine. Whenever we stop, he becomes very passive aggressive, takes revenge, and gives me the silent treatment. In between the better days, he constantly criticizes me, double checks everything I do and undermines whatever I say.
[00:12:02] And when he attacks me with the most absurd arguments, he once said he was angry with me because we went to the beach and it started to rain and I try to defend myself. He says, I'm gaslighting him. He always brings me down and I feel like something died in me the last few years.
[00:12:16] Jordan Harbinger: I think it's undermines whatever I say, oh, what did I say?
[00:12:18] I'm just kidding. I'm undermining.
[00:12:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm undermining things that you've said. Oh,
[00:12:22] Jordan Harbinger: because
[00:12:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: I said undermines.
[00:12:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. See,
[00:12:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: oh God. I have to do everything, man. God. God, you're stopped taking revenge
[00:12:29] Jordan Harbinger: on me, Jordan. Terrible. Whatever. No, but this is so, so sad. Deeply sad. I don't know what else to say. It's really sad I being treated like this by your partner sucks.
[00:12:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Last year, my husband said that our child, quote unquote, ruined his life and continues to do so, and that he hates him because he takes most of my attention away from my husband. I was really close to leaving him after that.
[00:12:49] Jordan Harbinger: Oh. Oh, what a detail. Wow. That so, okay. I, I, that this guy is kind of A-P-O-S-I can have some empathy for somebody dealing with an addiction.
[00:12:59] Sure. Even someone dealing with a possible personality disorder, I guess. But saying your child is ruining your life because you then don't get 100% of your partner's attention. What are you talking about? Parenting 1 0 1 is you are no longer the most important thing in the world, right? That's supposed to be kind of a good thing.
[00:13:16] It was a good thing for me, man. This guy sucks. He's a man child, but I, I almost, there's a tiny dark corner of my brain where there's a little bit of sympathy because you're broken. Remember that father from a few weeks ago who was like, oh yeah, he, our child doesn't need a relationship with me. Yes, he's got you.
[00:13:31] These guys are broken in some sort of weird way, right? 'cause fatherhood is supposed to open up your heart and everything, and I, you know me, I'm not like a woo woo guy. But that happens when you have a kid and if it doesn't happen to you, you are defective in this weird way that you maybe can't fix. And so I have a little bit of sympathy for the guy, but otherwise he's a total jackwat.
[00:13:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Clearly, once in a while my husband asks me if I think he's narcissistic, to which I always reply that I'm not his therapist. I'm not qualified to diagnose him with anything. But whenever I stumble upon something that describes a narcissistic person, your podcast was actually my first source on the topic.
[00:14:08] I can see my husband ticking most, if not all of the boxes. I've discussed leaving my husband many times with my therapist, but I don't see how I can make it happen. I earn less than he does, and I wouldn't be able to afford rent in our larger city. I'd obviously take my son with me, but I can only see my husband cutting his ties with him completely just spite me.
[00:14:27] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, in a way Great. Good riddance. But also I understand the, the logistical concerns here,
[00:14:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: right? Well, not exactly Father of the year at the moment is he, I don't, I don't know how much of a loss, but it would still, yeah, that's a wound. So she goes on. I'm really worried that my son might lose his dad. My husband is not a perfect father, but he has his moments,
[00:14:44] Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, her loyalty and grace for this guy.
[00:14:46] Are frankly starting to surprise me and I, I have to wonder if this is part of the codependency,
[00:14:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: right? Or she's just trying to find reasons to justify staying, which I also understand. Yeah. All of it. Understandable. So she goes on. I could move back to my hometown, but I don't wanna feel too dependent on my parents, especially since my mom loves to impose herself and can be difficult to handle.
[00:15:06] Jordan Harbinger: Gee, where did my codependency
[00:15:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: come from? Yeah, that's an interesting detail. Good point. So she goes on. My relationship with my mom was quite rocky when I was growing up, but it's been better since I moved out, mostly because of the distance I maintain. Also, I've dreamed of my own house for a long time, but my husband always considered it too much of a bother.
[00:15:24] Then when I was considering leaving him last year, he pushed us into buying a flat that's not even close to what I wanted. The monthly payments devour my salary, almost entirely
[00:15:33] Jordan Harbinger: her salary. So she's the one paying for it. Huh?
[00:15:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's how she phrased it. So that makes me think she's on the hook for these mortgage payments.
[00:15:40] Well, this frigging guy, man, I've tried applying for other jobs to get a better salary and potentially rent a flat, but all I've been getting are rejections and I've lost my motivation. I feel unable to make the move and leave. Last year, I decided to start accepting and appreciating what I have instead of dragging myself down with what ifs and missed opportunities.
[00:16:02] But I'm really struggling with that. How do I start accepting my life? Do I really need to know if my husband is a narcissist? Do you think I should press the issue and possibly ask him to get diagnosed? Or should I just learn how to cope with a narcissistic person no matter what? Signed, depressed, oppressed, and tethered to this hot mess?
[00:16:21] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. Okay. Well, there's so much going on in this story. First of all, I am so sorry you ended up with this person. You've painted a picture of a very chaotic, very painful marriage on so many levels. I was already wincing when you talked about the addictions and the, the possible slash probable sexual assaults.
[00:16:39] But then you get into this stuff about him, like dominating you, tearing you down. He doesn't like your child. The narcissism, the financial irresponsibility and manipulation. I'm just like, gosh, this guy is a little bit of a monster. Even if he's not that way all the time. And you say that something died in you in the last few years and I believe you, I this horrifying and deeply sad.
[00:17:00] That said, I do appreciate that you've also tried to work on your side of the street here, that you're able to locate some empathy for your husband. I think that's admirable, but at this point, I'm afraid that these qualities are keeping you stuck in a highly dysfunctional and emotionally quite dangerous situation.
[00:17:15] So obviously, as you can tell, I think you need to leave. You gave it a real shot on many levels. You're not getting any indication that your husband is equally committed to this work work, by the way, that he primarily needs to do. Although again, always, you know, again, takes two to tango in some of this stuff.
[00:17:33] At some point though, man, you gotta come to terms with the fact that this is who your husband is and he's probably not gonna get better, and that you and your son deserve a whole lot more. Now I understand that there are some very real obstacles to you leaving one main, one being money. And I hate that he's largely responsible for that, pushing you to buy this flat right as you are about to leave him, which actually Gabriel might just sort of like paranoid conspiratorial here.
[00:17:58] It almost seems like was the timing of this and the pressure on this a tactic to get her to stay?
[00:18:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. I think it might've been because he said that it was always too much of a bother and then all of a sudden she's like, I think I'm gonna leave. And he is like, oh, here's the apartment and you're gonna pay for it and we're gonna take out a loan.
[00:18:12] I mean,
[00:18:12] Jordan Harbinger: right. The timing is weird. It is. And and if that's exactly how it went down then, then there you have it. And unfortunately it might have worked. I think it might have worked, but you have to find a way outta this situation. Now, it might take a ton of hard work. It might take a bunch of grit more than you think you have in you.
[00:18:26] It might take a while, it might take years even. But you have to do it because the alternative is. I mean, you know, it's this nightmare. So you need to be patient. You need to be driven and focused, and you need to be consistent, and you have to start pursuing the people and ideas and resources to start charting your own path in life.
[00:18:44] So friends, family, mentors, your therapist, a support group, maybe like a financial coach of some kind. Books about abuse and divorce and financial literacy. Whatever you need, and you need to start asking for help and advice wherever you go. And you need to commit to capitalizing on that advice. And I know that you've gotten a lot of rejections recently.
[00:19:06] I know how demoralizing that is. The fact that you're even job hunting when your husband dominates you in this way is quite remarkable, actually. I mean, it shows that you've also got a ton of drive and resilience and you've got some resourcefulness, like maybe he doesn't know about this 'cause you're using some proton mail or something like that.
[00:19:22] Good for you. But you gotta lick your wounds and you gotta keep applying. You gotta ask the people in your life for referrals and recommendations. You have to take your relationships seriously because they are the best asset that you have. And I mean relationships with, you know, people other than him.
[00:19:37] All that six minute networking.com stuff that I talk about so much, it's not just about getting ahead in your career. I've literally heard from multiple people who are able to escape bad relationships or move to better countries or get their children into great schools because of these concepts and the drills and stuff in there.
[00:19:53] So your relationships really are everything. So it, and look, I'm Hocking my own crap here, but six minute networking.com, if you're not already into that. They won't just open doors for you. These relationships are gonna sustain you and motivate you along the way as well. You need all the support. You can get emotional support as well.
[00:20:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, totally agree. You also need to remember that this isn't just about you and your sanity. This is also about your son. I mean, this kid deserves a home where dad isn't raging and rejecting him and coming home drunk at like nine in the morning while he's having breakfast with a collector's edition of ESI under his arm.
[00:20:28] Right? And like playing Call of Duty till three in the morning. Oh God. And talking, you know, in the kitchen about how he hates his son. I mean, he deserves a mom also who isn't exhausted and afraid and diminished at every turn by her husband. Sure. Maybe you could grit your teeth and stay small and muddle through your life with this guy, but at what cost?
[00:20:48] You know, like what impact is that gonna have on your son for the rest of his life? So on days when you find it hard to fight for yourself, I think you gotta fight for him. And yes, unfortunately I do think you should at least consider moving near your parents, but that really depends on how difficult your mom is, how strong your boundaries with her are.
[00:21:06] I do wonder if there's a way to ask her for some support, you know, while you get on your feed and protect yourself from whatever she might do to you. You would have to be extremely thoughtful about those boundaries, and I wonder if that's hard for you, for obvious reasons. I mean, a lack of boundaries is obviously a big part of codependency and going home.
[00:21:23] That might kind of be like going back to the scene of the crime. But then I ask myself, is that really worse than being abused and hurt and let down in so many ways by your husband? You know, is that really worse than living with a cruel, unmotivated, narcissistic manchild? I mean, going home might be stressful, it might not be ideal, but if your only way out of this toxic marriage is to go home, you might have to choose between the lesser of two evils for a short period of time.
[00:21:48] Jordan Harbinger: I'm with you, Gabe. Three months, six months back at home. That might be survivable with a new approach. Now about the narcissism label, nah, you don't need to know whether your husband is officially a narcissist, whatever. Whether it's a true personality disorder, it's not gonna change much for you other than confirming what you already suspect.
[00:22:06] So,
[00:22:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah. But I do find it interesting that this matters so much to her.
[00:22:10] Jordan Harbinger: Same, I, I kind of wonder if having the label, especially from an authority, that that stamp on paper, right? Mm-Hmm. If that's gonna what, give her more confidence in her own experience
[00:22:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: here or something. Exactly. That might speak to the part of her that struggles sometimes to go, what I'm experiencing is real.
[00:22:24] My judgments and opinions about my husband are legitimate. This is not okay. Which is a good thing for you to notice because that might be part of how you ended up in this relationship and you know, it might be part of what's keeping you stuck in it now.
[00:22:35] Jordan Harbinger: So, no, we do not feel that you should just learn how to cope with a narcissistic person no matter what.
[00:22:40] You're certainly allowed to. So many people do, but that doesn't have to be your story and I do not believe it's time to give up. In so many ways, so many horrifying and hurtful ways. Your husband has shown that he's not a healthy or a loving partner or parent. More importantly, he's shown that he's not able or willing to meaningfully change, but you are.
[00:23:00] And that means that changing the situation falls on you. This is your responsibility. Now, not your fault, but your responsibility. So what I would accept is how serious this situation is. What's at stake if you don't make a change and that a much better life is potentially waiting for you and that you also deserve that life?
[00:23:19] On that note, I would highly recommend reading Dr. Rami's new book. It's Not You. In the book she talks about accepting that a narcissistic partner is probably not gonna change unless they really, really want to and they're really would like putting in aton of work. And she also talks about how to effectively get out of a relationship with a narcissist.
[00:23:35] And if you can't leave, also it's like an option in the book. Most books are like, you gotta leave. And this book is like, you might not be able to because you can't pay rent. I mean, your precise scenario is kind of outlined in this book. It's a very useful resource for you right now. We'll link to that in the show notes.
[00:23:51] Please use our book links because it helps support the show and we're rooting for you, my friend. You can do this. You just gotta be patient, but work hard. You are playing the long game here and we're wishing you and your son all the best. You know what's more affordable than an apartment you didn't even want in the first place.
[00:24:08] The fine products and services that support this show, we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Dell. Dell Technologies just rolled out the cybersecurity tapes, which is a fresh podcast series that tackles today's biggest cybersecurity issues. There's this kind of crazy episode where Gemini, a chat bot meant for customer support just starts leaking corporate secrets by accident.
[00:24:30] And I, I feel like that is totally possible with the advent of ai. And then there's Maria, who's a veteran security guru who's like saying it all. She runs her own consulting business. She's a wizard at fixing complicated tech messes. She has to like solve this whole Gemini problem. Now, I know it's like hard to sell this, right, but what makes each episode stand out is the mix of stories and learning.
[00:24:48] It's actually more than just storytelling. It's a smart and engaging way to discuss the cybersecurity threats that I'm always bringing up on the show. The serious crafts, really relatable and understandable scenarios using these vivid characters. So you get caught up in the drama and then without even realizing it, you're learning crucial ways to protect yourself online.
[00:25:04] So check out the next episode of the Cybersecurity Tapes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. And if you've got a cybersecurity horror story of your own, you can drop a review and your story might inspire their next episode. This episode is also sponsored by Thorn. If you're on the hunt for top-notch vitamins and supplements that are not only personalized but also scientifically proven, you gotta check out Thorn.
[00:25:24] What's really cool is they have at-Home Health Tests to check your thyroid, your Gut Health, menopause, vitamin D, which like everyone is deficient in basically even a biological age test, and then they provide a personalized health plan. Thorn makes all their supplements in the United States, so no Chinese sawdust, and they source their ingredients from the best places worldwide.
[00:25:42] Jen pays attention to vitamin D deficiency, as I do as well. It's super common among women in Asians specifically, and apparently me, so she takes thorn's, vitamin D, as well as vitamin B complex to help cover up any gaps in her diet. Thorn is really strict with their quality checks and manufacturing.
[00:25:56] That's like a table stakes for me, talking about something like that on the show, and they have the highest certifications out there. I just don't recommend stuff if they don't do that. Over 5 million customers, including loads of pro athletes trust in Thorne.
[00:26:08] Jen Harbinger: Give your body what it really needs with Thorne.
[00:26:11] Go to thorne.fit/jordan and use code Jordan for 10% off your first order. That's T-H-O-R-E doit slash Jordan. Code Jordan for 10% off your first order. Thorn do Fit slash Jordan Code Jordan, these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.
[00:26:32] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. All the deals and discounts and ways to support the show are on one clickable searchable place. Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show now back to feedback Friday.
[00:26:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay,
[00:26:48] Jordan Harbinger: next
[00:26:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: up. Hello Jordan and Gabe. I met my friend Patrick and his cousin John in third grade, and we all grew up together.
[00:26:55] Then in university I opened up an eBay account and started buying things. I enjoyed mostly eighties and nineties figurines like Ninja Turtles and GI Joes. One day Patrick asked me if we could start selling the original Xbox. He noticed that people on eBay were selling them for over a thousand dollars when they were like $400 retail sweet deal for university students.
[00:27:16] This was his idea. So I let him run with it. Every two weeks, four or four or five months, Patrick would give me about $200 telling me it was from the Xbox sales. Then he stopped giving me money. I really didn't pay much attention to it. Then I started getting calls from people from Indiana, Ohio, and other Midwest states saying that they hadn't received their Xbox.
[00:27:38] I checked with Patrick and he would say, oh, overstock is on back order, or, I did send it, let me check. It never occurred to me to check my eBay account. I made up my mind that Patrick was telling me the truth and that he was gonna fix this. Then one day I received a letter and an email from eBay an a legal entity that I owed eBay, a very large amount of money, and that I had to pay back all the money to the people who never received their Xboxes, and that my account was closed and I was banned from their site.
[00:28:06] I confronted Patrick and asked him how this could have happened. Patrick looked me right in the eye and told me, I realized I make more money if I don't purchase the Xbox, so I stopped.
[00:28:16] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Wow. Okay. Well dude, just straight up copped to being a scammer account artist. Cool. Sure. Good, best friend. I mean that.
[00:28:23] That really sucks. This is a guy like I. How creepy is that?
[00:28:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is such a literal confession that you have to wonder if there's something seriously wrong with this guy. A hundred percent man.
[00:28:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. No dodge, nothing
[00:28:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: like, oh, I realize that my profit margin goes up when I just engage in fraud and bd. Like
[00:28:40] Jordan Harbinger: what?
[00:28:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:28:41] Jordan Harbinger: The two bit con artist. NBA analysis dude's gotta screw loose for sure. I, I just, where there's smoke, there's fire too. This is, this definitely gets worse. I assume.
[00:28:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: I was floored by his statement and asked him about how he was gonna help me pay eBay back. He said, it's your account. You should pay attention.
[00:28:57] Sounds like a U problem.
[00:29:00] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Like a total, a-hole on top of it. This guy's a just a predator man. Wow.
[00:29:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: What was funny is that I wasn't angry. I was more hurt. Patrick was a very close and lifetime friend, and he said this so coldly without a care in the world then asked if I wanted to go catch a movie, what?
[00:29:17] After this, I distanced myself and Patrick. It took me a year to pay eBay back, and I've never been on the site since. Funnily enough, John who worked with me at a deli had warned me about Patrick before all this, but I didn't believe him. I would later find out from John that Patrick was using the Xbox money to buy escorts and clothing and to live a nice lifestyle.
[00:29:38] No drugs or alcohol as Patrick was health conscious. Health
[00:29:41] Jordan Harbinger: conscious,
[00:29:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: but
[00:29:42] Jordan Harbinger: bangs random women for money,
[00:29:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: I guess. Okay. I don't know. Yeah. Hard to know whether that's true. Sure. But okay. Another friend of ours bought A-D-S-L-R camera and Patrick pawned it. He'd also borrow friends student IDs, check out laptops from the computer labs on campus and pawn those too.
[00:29:58] He owed money to the wrong people and had his mom's brand new Corvette stolen, wink wink from her garage. Woo.
[00:30:05] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So this dude is just a total fraudster, desperately trying to keep all these pins in the air, and I am definitely, I'm getting a whiff of a mental illness here for sure.
[00:30:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Five years later, John organized a get together with old friends from high school.
[00:30:17] Patrick was there as my wife and I were leaving. He approached me outside. We made small talk and he asked me if I wanted to go out and catch up. I confronted him and told him that he hurt me as a friend. He stared at me and just said that it was in the past and we shouldn't worry about such things.
[00:30:33] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, we shouldn't worry about me totally trying to ruin your life and not caring.
[00:30:37] I just, I hate this guy. What a ridiculous person
[00:30:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: he was, right. I was holding onto it, and I never realized how much till that moment I looked at him and told him he was right, and that I forgave him. I declined his offer to catch up and haven't seen him since. My wife asked me how I could just forgive him like that.
[00:30:55] I realized that the forgiveness was not for him, but for me to let go of the feelings of being stupid and embarrassed. Was Patrick a narcissist? It's quite a theme today. Okay, theme. Should I have punched him in the face? Well, why didn't I do more? What could I have done signed? Wondering where to point the finger after falling hook, line and sinker for this total wanker.
[00:31:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I mean, should he have punched him in the face? No. Did he deserve it? Yes. Uh, but that's not what we're addressing here, man. I'm very sorry you crossed paths with this guy. He's a bad apple to put it lightly. And he targeted you the way that he targeted so many people just to make a quick buck to save his own skin.
[00:31:33] This guy screwed over his own mother. So I think it's safe to say he was never really your friend, but at least not by any definition that you would nor normal person would have as a friend. I'm not sure this guy is capable of having true friends. Again, screws over his own mom has her car stolen. I understand why all this hurt you the way it did.
[00:31:50] It's a huge betrayal. It's very unsettling, and it must've been even worse given your history together. I mean, if I, if I get screwed over by some random stranger or a new person that I met, I'm like, wow. But if I get screwed over by somebody I've known since kindergarten or, or third grade or whatever it was, that would really, yeah, it, it cuts deep.
[00:32:08] So I don't know if Patrick was a narcissist and I don't really care. Maybe it would explain some of his behavior. There's certainly narcissism at work here, I guess, but I don't know. Gabe, I'm getting far deeper sociopath vibes from this guy. Right. He versus narcissism,
[00:32:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: definitely. I heard that too when he confronted Patrick and Patrick was like, oh yeah, I just put you eight grand in the hole with eBay and implicated you in numerous crimes.
[00:32:29] But, uh, yeah, let's not worry about that kind of stuff. You wanna, you wanna go see Batman begins at 2, 2 50. Like
[00:32:35] Jordan Harbinger: what? Yeah, just cold unfeeling, but also complete inability to empathize. It sounds like a you problem. Am I right? Anyway, it's almost like he's confused about what went wrong. It just sounds like a wiring issue at that point.
[00:32:49] If somebody knows they screwed you over and they, they know it's wrong, they avoid you, right? There's all kinds of other stuff going on. This guy was like, what? You're mad about that? I mean, that's weird also. Yeah, I totally screwed you, but like whatever. He just doesn't even understand. This man is broken, so the only smart option with people like this is to stay far away from them.
[00:33:07] They will always try to screw you because that's just how they operate. I wouldn't even talk to somebody like this. They can't have normal relationships. They can't consider someone else's experience. You're literally wasting your breath and probably opening yourself up to being victimized again. So your main question, why didn't I do more?
[00:33:28] What could I have done? That's the only question that's worth asking yourself. And I don't know if you were just asking about that night that you ran into him or about the whole relationship, but I'm gonna apply that to the whole relationship and remind you that even though Patrick's fraud came as a surprise, you did have a very explicit warning early on from John, your other best friend who's related to the guy.
[00:33:49] Right? He literally told you before all this, that Patrick was bad news, and in your words, you just didn't believe him. Wasn't John Patrick's cousin? Yes. My question is, why would you not believe him? Mm-Hmm. Did you not trust John's opinion at that time? Were you more loyal to Patrick? Did you not want to believe John?
[00:34:07] Right. And if so, why was that? Did you not wanna lose Patrick as a friend? Was it painful to acknowledge this guy that you grew up with was bad news? Was it stressful or scary to think about pulling away or telling him you weren't gonna be partners? Listening to John, taking the red flags at face value along the way, that is just one huge thing you could have done differently.
[00:34:28] The other thing that you could have done differently is you could have been more on top of the business. Like I get ignoring stuff. I've, I've also been guilty of this in, in years past. Like someone else took out a bunch of credit cards in their own name and funneled the money into a business that I was running.
[00:34:43] And when we found out about it, he was like, the business owes me this. You need to sign this letter that says the business owes me this. And I was like, uh, no, I'm not going to do that. He ended up going through bankruptcy and he tried to sue me, by the way, and I was like, you did this without telling anyone.
[00:34:59] And we luckily, there were like a ton of people in the business and then we were all like, we have no idea why you would do this. And nobody gave you permission. And his argument was, you did. And it's like, well then why are they in your name and not in the business? Why did nobody else in the business take out the cards?
[00:35:11] Right? And so he, you know, a total moron, but first of all, the dude's handing you $200 in cash flat every two weeks you're taking it. No income summary, no sales report. You don't even want a Google sheet showing like how many of these things you sold. Also, Gabe, I wasn't really paying attention, but the math is a little weird here too, right?
[00:35:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. The profit margin should have been $600 per unit, right? So he is handing you a third of that without telling you how many units he sold. So even if, even if he sold two of these Xboxes a month, the math is weird,
[00:35:39] Jordan Harbinger: right? And then he stops giving you money completely. And in your words you're like, ah, I didn't pay much attention to it.
[00:35:46] Like, I just guess I stopped the business. Why? I mean, at what point do you go, huh, something's not right here. Let me log into eBay and see what's up. Like I'm curious how many Xboxes we're selling. Then you get those calls from people angry. They never got their products. So at that point, even if you had good reason to discount all the red flags, all the signals, which you didn't because John had already warned you, but even if you did, that's when you go, okay, my business partner is either a hot mess or he's on drugs or something, or something fishy is going on.
[00:36:13] But even then you said, it never occurred to me to check my eBay account, which I'm calling shenanigans on. I think you were avoiding something here. That's what you need to figure out. I'm not sure if it was the responsibility of managing the details that go into being a business owner. That's kind of what it was for me, or the burden of confronting who Patrick really was.
[00:36:32] But in so many ways, you either missed the cues or you buried your head in the sand, and that created a massive blind spot when it comes to this guy.
[00:36:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is exactly right. Yeah. And that's why this thing with Patrick had to happen, I think, to help you confront this part of your personality. The part of it that didn't want to confront his, you know, Jordan, one of the most telling parts of his letter is when he said, I made up my mind that Patrick was telling me the truth and that he was gonna fix this.
[00:36:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Like, I made up my mind to bury my head in the sand and disregard all evidence that comes in until I get sued by eBay. Like, what does that, is that what that means? That's what it meant.
[00:37:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think it means that it was very hard for him to even entertain the possibility that Patrick was lying to him using him.
[00:37:12] And again, why that is, that's for him to figure out, but Right. I have a feeling it's because it would've been very wounding to admit that Patrick was a bad dude and that he targeted him. Like he said, he was more hurt than angry when it all came out. So he clung to a version of his friend that he could live with in order to spare himself the pain of accepting who he really was, but what that pain actually consisted of.
[00:37:34] It's such an interesting question. I mean, I'm sure it's the usual mix of sadness, disappointment, regret, anger, all normal responses. But because he had so many signs along the way, I think it was also a lot of embarrassment.
[00:37:45] Jordan Harbinger: I was gonna say, I think our friend here has a lot of shame about all this. He has
[00:37:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: some egg
[00:37:50] Jordan Harbinger: on his
[00:37:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: face, right?
[00:37:51] Mm-Hmm. John literally told him, dude, watch out for my cousin. Not a good guy. And he went into business with him anyway. Then he stuck around way longer than he should have. So this brute force intellectual position, I'm just gonna make up my mind that Patrick is a good person. That sounds like a defense against a wound that he would feel, or just a general kind of broad discomfort or ambiguity about who this person really is and what it all means.
[00:38:16] The wound might be, I had poor judgment, I missed the signs. I made myself vulnerable. I was asleep at the wheel, basically, I. On some level, I participated in this dynamic with this guy. Exactly.
[00:38:27] Jordan Harbinger: There's a connection here to the Gavin De Becker idea we talked about last week or the week before, whatever it was.
[00:38:32] Yes. How at some point, right? Yes. Many victims become volunteers. Mm-hmm. But as long as you're colluding with your scammer, even if it's just by turning a blind eye clinging into the version of them that you wish they were, you're enabling them in a sense. You're indirectly targeting yourself.
[00:38:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Which is why when he forgave Patrick all these years later, he said it was for himself.
[00:38:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. To let go of all these feelings of feeling stupid and embarrassed. Right?
[00:38:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Again, he's sparing himself some difficult emotions. So my question for you is, what is it about those feelings that's so difficult to tolerate? I'm not saying that you should live the rest of your life consumed with hatred for this guy.
[00:39:06] That's not healthy either. But he victimized you man. He conned you, he exploited you. It's perfectly appropriate to be angry at him and to remember what he did to you, to not let him off the hook. That anger isn't just justified, it's also protective. Now, I can understand being embarrassed about the role that you played here.
[00:39:23] I totally get it. But there's another way to approach yourself, which is, huh, interesting. There's a part of me that doesn't always want to be in contact with reality, whether it's with the truth about this guy, with the details of a business, with my own feelings, or even with this guy years later, when I'm still really hurt and really angry at him.
[00:39:42] But I don't want to own that. So maybe it's time for me to look at those qualities, try to figure out why they're there, see if I can work on them, and hopefully grow here by forgiving Patrick so easily. Which by the way, let's remember you also did, because he said you shouldn't worry about stuff like this, which suggests to me that Patrick might still be exerting some influence over you.
[00:40:02] I think you missed another opportunity to fully be in touch with all of this, which is precisely what you could have done to protect yourself from him in the first place.
[00:40:09] Jordan Harbinger: That's exactly right, and, and that's why I kind of don't think he truly forgave Patrick in the classic sense of the word. This wasn't like, okay, you're a defective human being.
[00:40:19] I'm super angry at you, but mostly I feel bad for you, so I'm gonna forgive you because you aren't capable of getting better. This is more like my anger and shame and hurt are so awful that I'm gonna pretend I'm forgiving you so that I don't have to keep feeling this way. And I, I totally understand the impulse to do this, but meanwhile, those feelings are still bubbling beneath the surface because they really haven't been fully acknowledged and explored.
[00:40:41] And I hate to say this because I know this is all kind of intense, but until you do explore those feelings, I'm a little bit afraid that your vulnerability to people like Patrick, it remains in place. Gabe, it's interesting, over the years I've dealt with a few Patricks here and there. Mm-Hmm. And I've had vendors and partners and collaborators who promised products and never delivered or funneled resources away from our company or even tried to take part of my old businesses or whatever, or did take part of my old business, just took it.
[00:41:10] And it wasn't until I met Jen and started working with her that I was really able to see a lot of this stuff. Clearly it's not that I didn't notice these guys were scumbags and, and try, didn't try to do anything about it. But Jen saw this play out a couple of times or one, one specific time and was like, why are you wasting your time with this guy?
[00:41:24] He's a knucklehead and he's full of crap. Why does this happen? And I had to really look at that because lots of business owners get screwed around with it's for sure. But I realized I also had some ideas at the time that were making me vulnerable to these people. Like for example. I would think, oh, if I bring this person in, they're gonna handle all this marketing stuff.
[00:41:43] And this stuff is so confusing and there's so much to know and I don't know if I can figure it out. It's all new to me. And then I don't have to learn how to do this stuff myself, which is, you know, look, you hire vendors 'cause they have certain expertise, but this was like, I'm gonna fix every problem you say you have.
[00:41:57] That's su. Or, oh, this person has all these secrets that I don't know or experience I don't have, and I can't run this business without them. Which is funny because that's actually precisely what a lot of marketers do to create buyers. They look at what you need and they tell you, oh, I have this thing that you don't know.
[00:42:16] If you buy it, you'll get crazy results. Look at all these results I'm delivering for other people, whether they're true or not. But a lot of internet marketers, they're just low key scammers. So much of it is a con. I probably don't need to sell that point too hard. We've all seen people selling crap online.
[00:42:29] That's clearly junk. Especially info products. So I'd find these questionable partners who really wanted to work with me because of the size of the show or the, the, my online footprint. And they really worked like overtime to make me feel like I should trust them because they were targeting me. And it was a red flag after red flag.
[00:42:46] And I would be too busy, quote unquote, too busy and discount those. And I really did need Jen to be like, Hey, this guy's targeting you. There's a pattern here. And that was a big step for me and that's what our friend here needs to do. It's kind of funny. One of the final, just hammer of the nail in the coffin of me being vulnerable to this kind of thing was having to restart this business, this show seven years ago, whatever it's been.
[00:43:10] Because I was like, I basically did that with the team's help. I didn't need these outside es. They wasted my time targeting me at that point in time where I was vulnerable by the way. But then I realized like these guys didn't really do anything. Not much anyway. And they were a lot 99% talk. And so I was like, you know what?
[00:43:29] If I can rebuild this whole thing with my team, I don't need these external Es. Like they can do specific stuff, but I'm not hiring any of these guys. And I basically was just like, I'm not working with you guys anymore. And it was funny 'cause they were like, what? And then they just screwed off and never talked to me again and I'm fine with it.
[00:43:44] Wow. Yeah. But I did need Jen to kind of be like, shine the flashlight on it. So that's what our friend here needs to do. It needs to really look at the thoughts and the feelings and assumptions that he has about how he runs his businesses, how he might navigate life in general, which are becoming vulnerabilities to human viruses like Patrick.
[00:44:03] The feelings, all feelings, they, they're there to teach you something about yourself, of course, but also about other people, including people who wish to do you harm. These feelings in many ways are our evolved defense mechanisms, right? They're trying to communicate something to us, so rather than suppress them, sidestep them, discharge them, whatever you're doing to distance yourself from essentially yourself, I'd lean into them and invite them in.
[00:44:24] Like the husband from the previous question. This is something that Patrick can't do. His wiring is broken. Both of those guys wiring is broken, and that's a tragedy, but you can do this. And there's a whole world of information in there and a ton of growth. So I hope you get to do that, man, and I hope you get to capitalize on this really awful experience.
[00:44:43] You're already in the process of doing it, which is great, and I wish you good luck. I know it sounds like a lot. I, I've, I've lost, you know, lots and lots and lots and lots of money to scammers and a-holes. I don't really miss it, and I know that it's like digging out sucks. But then after that, you're like, ah.
[00:44:58] All right. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. Your mom's being targeted by a guy because your state keeps letting him outta jail. Your brother's obsessed with goats or your bedridden dad is stuck in a house with a violent psychotic family member.
[00:45:15] Man, give the spectrum of stories we get on the show really never ceases to amaze me. Isn't it crazy? Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email
[00:45:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: anonymous. Okay, next up. Hey guys. My mom lived with her boyfriend for 20 years before passing away. Nine years ago. She had a long journey into dementia, and as she became less able to do things, I stepped up.
[00:45:37] It started with weekly visits to fill her pill caddy, and by the time she passed, I was going there nearly every day to make them supper, do their grocery shopping, take them to all of their appointments, whatever was necessary. Neither of my sisters lifted a finger to help, nor did my mom's boyfriend's children, even though three of the four lived within 11 miles of his home.
[00:45:58] I'm still friends with her boyfriend. I call him stepdad. We go places and do things regularly, and I thought we were family three years ago. He broke his hip and hasn't been able to live at home since, mostly because his daughter wants him in a nursing home. I've spoken to him almost daily since this happened, keeping his spirits up.
[00:46:15] Then last Christmas, his granddaughter announced her engagement. A couple days later I saw his daughter, the bride, to bes mom at his nursing home. She told me about the wedding and asked if I would mind bringing her dad. Of course I'll do that. I said the venue's about 40 minutes from here and he takes a long time to do things.
[00:46:34] Days before the wedding, I still hadn't received an invite, didn't have the name of the place, the address, or the time. Then his daughter called yesterday with that information and informed me that because they're having a micro wedding of only 70 guests, she listed me as a vendor. That way I can still get a plate, but I'm not allowed to drink at the open bar.
[00:46:55] Am I expected to give them a gift, a card with money in it. I don't think any of my fellow vendors are gonna do so should I send her an invoice the day after the wedding charging her for taking care of her dad. Signed playing This card have been dealt when apparently I'm just the help.
[00:47:10] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. I'm sorry that your mom's boyfriend's family is treating you this way.
[00:47:14] I think it's funny, it's a micro wedding, but it's 70 guests. Micro is like 10 people including the bride and groom. Yeah. 10
[00:47:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: people at a small
[00:47:21] Jordan Harbinger: chapel. Anyway, you have to make some tough calls at even a 70 person wedding. I get it. There's a world where your grandfather's late girlfriend's daughter doesn't make the cut, and if you communicate that kindly with a phone call or an email explaining why, like it's purely budgetary and we're having trouble, I get it.
[00:47:37] Maybe it's okay, especially if you're not super close. Although it sounds like maybe you kind of were, which you know, sucks. But if you call that person a family member, as far as I'm concerned, and you ask him to bring your own father to the wedding as a favor, you give that person an invite. Absolutely.
[00:47:55] Right? It seems, it seems so Dick la a man and petty and not even that much more cost effective. And if you don't know what day class A means, it means, gosh. And if you don't know what gosh means, it's a word that pretentious assholes use to sound culture, which,
[00:48:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: uh, you just did so twice I would add, but yeah, I'm with you, man.
[00:48:15] That's what I'm confused about. They're saying we're having a super small wedding so you can stay for dinner, but you can't have a couple glasses of pinot grge at the bar. Like that's where we draw the line.
[00:48:25] Jordan Harbinger: Right? No cake for you. Meanwhile, she's schlepping their father from the nursing home or whatever, and then she has the same status as the person who brought what the fricking photo booth to the wedding, and she's gotta squeeze in at her stepdad's table and go on his chair to enjoy her plate.
[00:48:43] I'm sorry, but this is total bs. Yeah. This guy is her stepfather. Her mom was with him for 20 years. If you don't wanna invite her, don't invite her, but don't turn her into your dang contractor and then not include her in the event. This woman deserves all the, all the pinot gris she can drink for Gods sake.
[00:49:01] Well, probably not if she's driving an elderly man back home. 11 miles.
[00:49:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I was gonna say, if she's driving the dad home, maybe moderate. Yeah. But yeah, a couple glasses over the evening for sure. I agree. It's hurtful. I wanna believe that they just didn't think this through. But how could they not? They thought it through enough to give her a vendor's invite and send her the details.
[00:49:17] So they must be aware of what this meant.
[00:49:19] Jordan Harbinger: That's probably why it took 'em so long to get her the details. They were probably going back and forth trying to decide whether to invite her and it's just so lame. It's so gross.
[00:49:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: So do you give them a gift? Um, well, I certainly understand why you don't want to, but if you don't, they're gonna notice.
[00:49:35] And they're definitely gonna interpret that as some kind of slight,
[00:49:38] Jordan Harbinger: even though she already gave them a gift to Hi, I brought your dad Yeah.
[00:49:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: To
[00:49:41] Jordan Harbinger: the
[00:49:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: wedding. Agreed. But they're not thinking about it like that, right? No. And when they do their spreadsheet on who gave what, they're gonna go, huh. Interesting.
[00:49:49] Elise didn't give us anything. Someone's got her knickers and a twist, you know, like Right. They're gonna interpret it that way.
[00:49:55] Jordan Harbinger: Guess who's double not invited to our open house Thanksgiving this year where you have to bring the Turkey.
[00:50:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I, I hate that they've put her in this position because now she looks like the petty one.
[00:50:04] Either by not giving them a gift or by bringing it up with them and then pointing out how rude it is.
[00:50:09] Jordan Harbinger: I gotta say though, the idea of sending her an invoice, I love that. It's so funny. It's kind of funny. I mean, that's like a super putty, dark Jordan, a dark e lease. I love it. And maybe, maybe there's a world in which that plays.
[00:50:20] Well, probably not. There is a certain poetry in it though, but that is definitely gonna piss them off more and or make them embarrassed and pull away. I love the idea that the idea occurred to you, but I think that's where it should stay. Your best bet is really to go to the wedding, take good care of your stepdad, play nice with everyone, and afterward you get the bride something small.
[00:50:40] It doesn't have to be lavish, maybe a F kundra from Ikea or whatever. And then adjust your expectations of this family accordingly. They might be signaling how close they really want to be with you. And frankly, that sucks. It's not kind. They sound selfish already because of the whole not taking care of one thing and letting you do all that.
[00:51:01] They're taking advantage of you. And I don't know, do you need family like that? You might just want to take the signal and accept that this is how they feel and they're not gonna change.
[00:51:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: There is one other possibility here. Jordan, which is our friend here, sacrificed a lot for her mom and her stepdad over the years.
[00:51:17] Yeah. She clearly has some resentment and I think understandable resentment toward her sisters and her step-siblings who apparently left all of this to her. And then her stepsister just put her dad in a nursing home after he broke his hip, presumably because it was easier on her, on her and her siblings.
[00:51:32] So I do wonder if his kids and his granddaughter, the bride, just aren't that close with him or they don't treat him very well. And so by extension, they're not that close with the daughter of his ex-girlfriend, which would mean that this whole wedding invite thing might not ultimately be about her.
[00:51:46] She's just collateral damage in their relationship with her father. The other possibility is that during that time that our friend was taking care of her mom and stepdad, some friction developed between her and the rest of the family because she was like, Hey, I'm the only one who cares. I do all the work.
[00:51:59] You guys don't lift a finger. And she might be right about that. But that might've also driven them away. It might've made them resent her. We don't know exactly how she communicated her feelings to them at the time. Not that they were wrong, but we just don't know how those conversations went. So when they're doing the seating chart for the wedding, they might be going, uh, yeah, let's not invite Elise because she's so difficult.
[00:52:19] Which still really sucks. It's hurtful. Mm-Hmm. But it might make some sense if they have fundamentally different opinions and feelings about who owes what to whom in this family.
[00:52:29] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's a good point. I don't think this all just started with the wedding. No. Clearly there were cracks in the relationship leading up to all this, but now she's seeing it clearly.
[00:52:37] Right. Whatever you do when you're at the wedding, I would definitely go ahead and order that Pinot g Grge, or three, don't even think twice about it. First of all, the bartender's not gonna be like, sorry, can I see your invitation? Are you family or are you the person who brought the sparklers? He's just gonna pour you a drink, or they're gonna hand it out on a tray Second, even if the family sees you ordering, sorry, but who cares?
[00:52:58] You're literally costing them like five bucks, 10 if they're serving the really good stuff, which based on the fact that they're trying to vendor you. Something tells me they're not serving the good stuff and if they get billed for it, tough kishka. As my Grammy used to say, you schlep their dad. You can enjoy some vino sis.
[00:53:13] And if the bride's mom locks eyes with you and horror at the bar while you order, I would lift your glass, give her a wink like Leonardo DiCaprio and the Great Gatsby and just take a nice, long victory sip before you return to your non-existent seat. That can be your little win. And if it's, if it's like me, I am ending that sip with.
[00:53:32] Ah, just, just loud enough she can hear it.
[00:53:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And the other thing I would do is, uh, I would get the bride and groom one of those fields that you have to assemble yourself. And then definitely, you know, they gave you a job, now you get to give them one. Exactly. And you
[00:53:47] Jordan Harbinger: know what? Take a couple screws out of that bad boy.
[00:53:49] Just one, one or two of each type. Keep 'em on their toes.
[00:53:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, it's a beautiful cycle, a beautiful petty
[00:53:55] Jordan Harbinger: cycle. There's nothing like putting something together from IKEA and being like, I need one of those wooden little dowels that goes in like one hole and then goes in the other hole to keep the thing together strongly.
[00:54:05] 'cause you're holding two partially built pieces, right. And you gotta, and you just don't have any more of those and you're like, damn, I gotta put this down and drive over there. Uh, man, I think this might be a little bit of a turning point in your relationship. That's not necessarily a bad thing. You still have your stepdad.
[00:54:22] That's the relationship that matters the most. The rest of the family, they might just not be your people, and that's okay. It hurts, but it's okay. Your stepdad is lucky to have you taking care of them. Have fun at the wedding or you know as much fun as you can. You know who's not gonna make you eat your slice of cake in a bathroom stall.
[00:54:38] Gabriel, the amazing sponsors who support this show, we'll be right back.
[00:54:45] This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help. Have you ever felt you're trying to solve a puzzle, but the pieces just don't seem to fit? That's what dealing with daily stress can feel like. Constantly wrestling with pieces that don't align, leaving you feel stuck and frustrated. Therapy can be the helping hand that guides you to find the right pieces and put them into place.
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[00:56:37] This episode is sponsored in part by Cup of Justice Podcast. We all wanna drink from the same cup of justice. It starts with hearing about our legal system, the justice system. Yeah, it can be intimidating. I know that as an attorney, but it doesn't have to be celebrated. Journalist Mandy Matney and Liz Ferrell, who cracked open the murder case, combined their knowledge with world renowned attorney Eric Bland, to discuss the perfect trifecta of legal expertise, journalistic integrity, and fire lit to expose the truth wherever it leads.
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[00:57:59] Now, back to feedback Friday. Alright,
[00:58:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: next up. Dear Gabe and Jordan, back when my daughter was 21 or 22 years old, she started seeing this guy who worked construction for my husband. Let's call him Aaron. Aaron was also part of our congregation and a very close friend of my son's as well. He was like family.
[00:58:18] We really enjoyed his company. He and my daughter got pretty serious pretty quickly, and it seemed like they were heading toward engagement. Then one night my daughter had Aaron's phone and saw in his browser that he was looking for local escorts.
[00:58:35] We're a religious family, very conservative, and we were shocked. Aaron actually called my husband crying and admitted to what our daughter had found on his phone. He said she had left and was on her way home to us. We all cried with her and let her know that we would support her in whatever decision she made.
[00:58:52] She said that she wanted nothing further to do with him, which was very hard on her, especially because this all happened during the pandemic. Lockdowns. Fast forward four years, our daughter is now about to turn 26. She's been happily married for a year and a half to a great guy who we feel is a perfect balance for her, but my son, who's now 21, has rekindled his friendship with Aaron.
[00:59:13] Apparently, he's cleaned up his act and Aaron is trying to restore his relationships in the congregation as well. We aren't BFFs with him, but we wish him well and occasionally run into him at social events. Our daughter, however, is livid that we have anything to do with him and feels betrayed. I now feel that we have to go out of our way to hide from her that we've spent time with Aaron recently after one of her meltdowns at learning about an event he was gonna attend with our family.
[00:59:39] I found myself texting her in all caps, you are married, Erin shouldn't even be a blip on your radar. Am I a disloyal mom? Should we continue to sneak around with our daughter's ex or just come out of the closet and let the chips fall where they may? Signed. Am I a cheater or does my daughter need to treat her old Bo with a different demeanor?
[01:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: This is kind of a tough one, Gabe, but I, I guess, I mean, I kind of see both sides here, right? I can see why the brother and the parents are open to giving this guy another chance. I mean, he, he kind of deserves that, being judged for the rest of your life, for something you did in your early twenties before you were married.
[01:00:15] It's kind of a harsh sentence. People can obviously grow. Plus they have, uh, a friendship with him apart from the daughter. But I can also appreciate why their daughter finds it weird that her family's hanging out with her ex almost fiance who cheated on her with a bunch of de toots on Backpage and broke her heart.
[01:00:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wait a second, let me just take in that phrase day class. A toots, toots on back page. Yeah. Chef's kiss.
[01:00:42] Jordan Harbinger: But I, I really feel for you here because you're caught between your own child and a guy who's, it sounds like he's probably a, maybe a decent person now who's done some real growth and wants to have better relationships with people in your community.
[01:00:52] That's a tough place to be. I mean, especially 'cause he like called the husband right away crying and admitting it. I mean, you know, he is already, it's not like he was like, ah, sucks to be you.
[01:01:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.
[01:01:01] Jordan Harbinger: Father of
[01:01:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: the daughter I cheated on. It is a tough place to be, but the daughter is also putting her family in a bit of a tough position to some degree by being very outraged and.
[01:01:10] Well, I don't want to speak too soon, but it sounds like she's being a little, maybe a little bit rigid about some of this.
[01:01:15] Jordan Harbinger: It sounds to me like she's very much still nursing this wound, which I can empathize with up to a point, but she's not giving this guy much grace or understanding. I, I mean, yes, he did something awful while they were together, but if it's true that he's changed, and this is in the past, then is it really fair for her to only view this from her own point of view, and is it really her place to say who her parents can and can't be friends with?
[01:01:38] I mean, I get breaking up with a guy, not giving him a second chance there. I get that, but then being like, now you can't talk to my mom. I, all right. I mean, well,
[01:01:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: especially four years later. Right, right, right. It's not like they're yucking it up with him at church mixers six weeks after he broke their daughter's heart.
[01:01:52] Right. That's a different situation. So much has happened since then and she's married now and she's happy. You know, when our friend said that she wants to tell her daughter, you're married, this guy shouldn't even be a blip on your radar. I'm not sure if he shouldn't even be a blip on her radar. They were almost engaged.
[01:02:05] Obviously this whole thing left a real mark on her and understandably so. But I agree with her that she might be clinging to something here. Also, reading between the lines here just a little bit, she did say that her daughter has been having meltdowns about all this, quite a strong word. She also said that her daughter's husband is a perfect balance for her, which is also kind of an interesting choice of words.
[01:02:24] Yeah, so that makes me wonder. Does the daughter run a little hot? Maybe? Is she maybe more reactive and emotional than, you know, logical, flexible, open to other perspectives, and her partner and maybe the whole family has to always adjust and balance out some of her extreme responses?
[01:02:41] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's, that's a interesting read between the lines there.
[01:02:45] I kind of get that sense too. Or maybe she's just like this when it comes to Aaron. Mm-Hmm. Which, again, being cheated on by your almost fiance in this way, in this community especially, it's a big deal. I mean, it, it'd be a big deal in any community. I mean, he's cheating on her with escorts. Yuck. Uh, I'm not discounting that, but my feeling is there's a conversation to be had with your daughter here, and the conversation has to begin with you trying to understand not only why your daughter feels so strongly about Aaron, but also why it's hard for her to imagine that he's changed.
[01:03:12] Consider whether he might deserve another chance. You have to have that part of the conversation without judgment. Just empathy, curiosity, and invite her to tell you why your relationship with him is so difficult for her. The second part of the conversation, if she's open to it, is inviting her to consider, not even to decide, just to consider why Erin continues to get under her skin so much.
[01:03:36] Why you guys having a casual friendship with him as a non-starter?
[01:03:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree completely. And I also know that there are people listening right now going, he cheated on her with escorts, right? And he probably broke her heart. So why does she have to be open to giving this guy another chance? Mm-Hmm. She's well within her rights to tell her family, you should not be talking to this guy.
[01:03:55] He's terrible. He ruined my life, blah, blah, blah. And I get it. I really do get it. But I also think there's gotta be some room for people to change, for the narrative to change, right? So as you talk, I would also maybe consider sharing with her what it's like to be stuck in the middle here. You might even wanna say, look, as your mom, I am on your side and I know how hard this was for you.
[01:04:15] Remember I was the one who cried with you. I told you that we would support you, whatever you decided. But what I'm seeing from my perspective is a guy who has meaningfully changed, who's putting in the time and energy to repair his relationships. And I think he deserves that chance. I appreciate that.
[01:04:29] Your brother also has a friendship with Aaron, and that's separate from your relationship with him. So I know how much it hurts you to know that we're talking to him and being nice to him, and I wanna be sensitive to that, but also it makes me feel like I'm a disloyal mother when I'm not totally sure that I need to choose here.
[01:04:45] You know, something like that. And then see if your daughter can empathize with you a little bit. She might not, or she might say, okay, I understand what this is like for you, but still, I'm sorry, it's just too weird for me. But I do wonder if you've put it in those terms with her before. In a way that maybe hopefully allows your daughter to consider that there are other angles on Erin besides hers.
[01:05:04] Jordan Harbinger: I think that would be an interesting conversation no matter what, even if the daughter doesn't change, my hunch is that she's not gonna change, but it's worth a shot.
[01:05:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: I also have this feeling that there's something deeper going on here. I don't know if this is just about Erin, you know, her daughter might be feeling fairly or unfairly.
[01:05:19] I don't know that her family isn't really on her side in general, and Erin is just a specific, very charged example of that. Or she might feel that her family really is on her side in every other way. So suddenly finding herself at odds with them about this guy that might be very scary and destabilizing, and she's having these meltdowns, not so much about Erin specifically, but about, you know, the rules of her relationship with her family, what they owe her, how they protect her, who comes first, if that's what's going on, then you might want to orient the conversation around that.
[01:05:51] What else this Aaron thing might be bringing up for her, but
[01:05:54] Jordan Harbinger: that would still be something she could work on, right? I think so. Yeah. So do I, because there's a version of events where she goes, look, I can't have a relationship with Aaron. I don't think he deserves another chance. And I find it kind of awkward that you all wanna be friends with 'em, but hey, if that's what you want, okay, fine.
[01:06:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right, right. She can make room for both of those things,
[01:06:11] Jordan Harbinger: but the fact that she wants the whole family to fall in line behind her for reasons that, again, I can understand up to a point that signals to me that making room for multiple perspectives and feelings and choices that might actually be really hard for her.
[01:06:23] And I wonder if that's a theme across her life. So before you decide to sneak around or whatever, with Aaron, I'd at least try to drag this into the open and have a conversation with your daughter. You might decide to pull back with Aaron. I don't know if you feel like that's appropriate and her feelings make sense.
[01:06:38] Maybe you're not BFFs with a guy but you're still friendly. Or you might decide to say, look, honey, I love you. I can see that this is still very painful for you, but I'm going to be civil with Aaron when I run into him because I have enough information to believe that he's genuinely changed. And I feel that he deserves that.
[01:06:53] Both are fair, but I think you need to gather some more data first.
[01:06:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: I also don't think you need to decide this on behalf of your son. You know, he has his own relationship with Aaron. They're actually the closest out of everybody in this situation. And yeah, I think her brother needs to have a version of this conversation with his sister as well.
[01:07:08] Jordan Harbinger: Good point. He can be part of the conversation as a family, but I feel like they all, the mom, the brother, the daughter, they all individually could benefit from making room for everyone to have different feelings and relationships with Aaron. That might actually be the real question of this letter, how to get more comfortable with that idea.
[01:07:26] So get to talking and go from there. Good luck. Alright, next up.
[01:07:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys. My daughter is a beautiful and wonderfully creative artist. She's 18, but she's inexperienced in love and sex and lives at home here in Canada. We have a close relationship and we talk openly. She suffered a lot in high school with anxiety, mainly due to Covid and online school.
[01:07:48] She's been in therapy for several years and loves her therapist. Recently, she fell in love with a 23-year-old man from the United States whom she met while online gaming. They spend every day online together. When she isn't working at her part-time, job, and regularly leave their phones open while they sleep.
[01:08:04] He sent her gifts, including a necklace with his name on it. He's a freelance creator with a high school education. My daughter has taken a gap year and just found out that she's been accepted to a high ranking art school here in Canada, which we're very excited about. I'm not too worried about his lack of post-secondary education, but I do wonder how he runs a freelance business and hustles for new clients when he spends so much time online.
[01:08:26] With my daughter, I'm now experiencing an extreme anxiety that is keeping me up at night and putting me on a roller coaster. Sometimes my worries are assuaged somewhat, but other times I'm freaking out that my daughter's boyfriend could be a nefarious human being, or worse, a human trafficker. At first, I wasn't even convinced he was who he said he was, but now I have his phone number, have checked out his LinkedIn account and have even been texting back and forth with him.
[01:08:53] He has a merch line and does branding and web design as well. They're arranging an in-person visit to a state next month where she'll stay with him in an Airbnb. He lives with his mother, who's an alcoholic, so they can't stay at his place. I insist on going with her for this first meeting. Still, I'll stay in separate accommodations about a mile away from theirs for five days out of the two weeks she's staying there.
[01:09:17] I tried to convince her to have their first meeting in person here in Canada, but she flatly refused. She's already transferred money to him for the accommodations, and we'll use some of her savings for the flights. I'm a well-rounded worldly liberal mother who has traveled extensively and lived in an Asian country for several years.
[01:09:35] So I'm not a prude nor averse to solo international travel. We've discussed things like safety and birth control, which she just started. I plan to discuss an exit strategy with her, including where she'll go and who to call if she feels uncomfortable or if something happens once I leave. We'll also get us SIM cards for our phones so we can call freely, and I want to track her phone as well.
[01:09:57] If she lets me. My biggest fear is that this could go very badly and something terrible could happen to her, but she's 18, and if I forbid her from going, she'd go anyway. Damaging our close relationship. How can I be sure that this man will not harm my child? Do I just let it play out? Am I a bad parent for even letting her go in the first place, or am I being too extreme with my fear and anxiety?
[01:10:21] Signed watching my daughter grow abroad for a dude who might be flawed, a fraud, or a straight up outlaw. I. Or do I just need to thaw toward a bra who really hasn't done anything wrong?
[01:10:32] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. I could have made a sandwich during that sign off, man. That went on for just hours. Yeah.
[01:10:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Much like her daughter's phone calls with the boyfriend.
[01:10:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Your ri your rhymes are taking my battery to 10%. Well, look, this is cute in some ways because the story is like 90% about a parent letting go of their baby. Mm-Hmm. So, look, I can certainly understand your fear and anxiety as a parent. My daughter's only two. I can't even imagine the day she starts traveling internationally and meeting boys and carving out a life for herself.
[01:11:04] You know, texting me from Italy, like I'm going out with some dudes I just met at a bar, like, oh my God. Nightmare field, right? I really do appreciate why this is so hard for you. You and your daughter are super close. You talk openly. That means you guys have probably been close her whole life, and I'm sure this is a very big milestone, a very meaningful transition for both of you.
[01:11:24] I also feel that your questions and concerns about this guy are appropriate to a degree. We all know there are bad people out there. There are men who target vulnerable women online. You're not totally crazy to feel anxious about your daughter flying to another country to meet an online gamer for the first time.
[01:11:40] Okay. Also, their relationship does sound very intense and all consuming, which isn't by itself dangerous, but it is a little curious. I can understand why your Spidey senses are going off there too. Although, honestly, it also just kind of sounds like young love what people do in their late teens, early twenties, they fall asleep with their phones on I, I mean, I did that stuff, the constant conversations online, all that stuff.
[01:12:00] I mean, I just don't know if that's inherently bad. I think it's quite normal. But you raised a fair question. How does he find time for work when he is spending so much time with her, but then you make time for what you wanna make time for, right? I mean, this relationship is still new. It sounds like they're very much in the honeymoon, puppy love phase, the schmoopy phase, and in a way that's kind of sweet.
[01:12:19] So look, you know this, but your daughter's an adult. She can legally make her own choices. But yeah, she's still very young and she doesn't have a ton of experience in this arena. And I think kids in her generation are lagging behind a little bit in this department because of the lockdowns. Which you did say were hard on her.
[01:12:36] So that's a meaningful detail. So you looking out for her, taking these precautions with her? Not for her, but with her. I think that's wise. I think it's responsible. And I think that's still maybe kind of part of your job as her mom. But I gotta say, I'm not terribly worried about this guy. Yeah, he's a little bit older, but he's not like 37, he's 23.
[01:12:56] It's not totally crazy for a 23-year-old and an 18-year-old to be dating, in my opinion. Although some people might disagree, 25, 26, 27, eh, that's where it starts to become a little suss. 'cause at that age, I remember being like, I'm not even interested in these. Like children who are 18, 19, 20, they can't even get into bars.
[01:13:14] You know that, that would be weird. But when I was 23, I don't know. My girlfriend was probably like 21. I don't, I can't remember and remember that his social development's probably been hindered a little bit too by the whole Covid thing. More importantly, this guy runs his own business. You've checked out his LinkedIn, I'm assuming he has a public internet presence given his merch line and his branding and his design work and all that stuff, and you're in touch with him directly.
[01:13:37] It's not like a nameless, faceless dude. Your daughter's flying to another country to meet and he does like crypto gambling or something, right? This is a real person who presumably you vetted as well as you could. Now, if I were in your shoes, I'd probably want to have at least a FaceTime with this guy before she flies out.
[01:13:54] You don't have to go full Robert De Niro and meet the fuckers, but just a brief, you know, Hey, how's it going? Nice to meet you. Tell me about you. Tell me about the trip. What do you guys have planned? And just get a feel for the guy. Look him in the eye. Study his vibe. You'll learn a lot just by interacting with them, even if it's virtual.
[01:14:11] Texting is good, but it's one step removed. It's much easier to hide stuff that way. I also love that you are going there for five days and that you're gonna be there for their first meeting. You're not staying in the Airbnb with them. That would be creepily inappropriate, but you're just down the road so you're there if anything happens.
[01:14:26] That sounds healthy and appropriately boundaried to me. You've figured out how to be in touch. You've developed an exit strategy. If she needs one, tracking her phone. I mean, some people might think that's overkill or a little over steppy given that she's an adult, but if she's okay with it and it would put you at ease, then sure, why not?
[01:14:44] I mean, my Jen's got tracking on my phone and it's not so she can control my life. It's so that if there's an emergency or anything, she's like, oh, okay. Or if I say I'm gonna be somewhere and then I'm in a different place, she's like, Hey, are you okay? What's going on? You know, you've been stuck in the same place for a while on the road.
[01:14:59] I would just be thoughtful about not tracking her obsessively or watching their every move. You could check it a couple times a day. You know, if, if they're not home or something like that, super late at night, whatever. I mean, if you don't hear from her for a few hours, sure. It's just there in case something really unexpected happens.
[01:15:15] You can track her location just for this trip. You can turn it off when she gets home. It doesn't have to be a permanent arrangement. You can settle that in the beginning. Hey, if you see the dots moving toward the Mexican border at double digit speeds at three o'clock in the morning, then yeah, call Highway Patrol.
[01:15:30] Otherwise, go get a mani-pedi, do some shopping. Enjoy the trip yourself too. All in all, the plan sounds pretty damn solid. You've landed on a set of agreements and plans and tools that respect your autonomy while still protecting her. And if you had written and asking what you should do to prepare, we probably would've recommended something similar.
[01:15:47] So well done.
[01:15:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I'm with you, Jordan. I I'm not too worried either, except if I were this guy and I knew that my girlfriend's mother was uneasy about this trip, the first thing I would wanna do is put her at ease. Yeah. So the fact that he hasn't called the mom or FaceTimed her and been like, Hey, I just wanna say hi, and I wanna get to know you and show you that I'm a real person who cares about your daughter.
[01:16:07] That does strike me as a little bit weird, maybe not dangerous, but maybe not the most thoughtful or attuned to the situation. And that is something to factor in and keep an eye on a little bit.
[01:16:17] Jordan Harbinger: It's funny, I thought I was rambling earlier, so I didn't say anything about this, but I violently agree with that, right?
[01:16:22] Because if I'm this dude, and it's hard because I'm 44 now, I'm like, when I was 23, would I have thought of this? And the answer is probably not, I guess. But as a 43-year-old pretending to be a 23-year-old, for the purposes of this question, if I'm this dude, I am insisting that we all go out to dinner together on the very first night, right?
[01:16:41] Maybe I meet her real quick and we hug and all that stuff, but I meet her with mom and I'm like, hi mom. And then we all go to dinner and yeah, we're gonna wanna like smooch right away and it's gonna be not what we had envisioned, but it's also like, you know. Plenty of time for that, potentially our whole lives for that, right?
[01:16:58] So the charm offensive, you're about to see if this is me, it is gonna rival nor it's gonna be D-Day of Winning over Mom. Okay? He could even put his phone on her tracking if he wanted to. Like, Hey, I'm gonna temporarily share my location with you so that you know where we are. I don't know if you have it yet set up for your daughter, but I just want you to feel safe, know where we are, you know?
[01:17:19] So, you know, we're not racing around at all hours and all that stuff. I would just be so cautious about that. But again, I'm 44 and have kids, and I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of a 23-year-old who's like not thinking about this stuff. And I'm not sure it's fair to be like, oh, he should be thinking about this stuff.
[01:17:33] I don't think that's realistic.
[01:17:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: There's another interesting detail that's jumping out at me, which is this guy's mother mm-Hmm. She's struggling with an addiction, which is really sad. So I am glad that your daughter won't be in that environment. They're getting their own Airbnb, which I think that's the right move, but I wonder what impact his mother has had on him over the years and how that's shaped him as a person because.
[01:17:52] Growing up with an addicted parent is, as we all know, very intense and traumatic, and it often creates a series of traumas. And the dynamic between a child and a parent with an addiction is complicated. There can be a lot of caretaking, sometimes a lot of enmeshment. There's often a codependency at work in those relationships.
[01:18:10] So I can't help but connect up a few dots here, and I am speculating. I know, but I do wonder if there's some connection between how intense and all consuming their relationship is and his experience growing up with a mother like this.
[01:18:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Interesting. Because that could just be that schmoopy phase I mentioned earlier, or it might be another version of the codependency that he might have experienced with his mom,
[01:18:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: possibly.
[01:18:33] And that is a concern, but it's not the concern that our friend here seems to be most interested in. It's not, this is not what's keeping her up at night.
[01:18:39] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[01:18:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: But then also, this stuff is not really her business. But anyway, none of this means that this guy is bad or dangerous by any means. Again. It's not his fault that his mom is like this.
[01:18:48] For all we know, he's totally aware of this and he's working on it, and his relationship with her daughter is very different. It's just an interesting detail in context.
[01:18:56] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Good point. And, and that might be something that she can encourage her daughter to learn more about on this trip because I, I have to think that's a big part of who this guy is.
[01:19:05] So the reality is there's no way to 100% know that this guy won't harm your daughter. All you guys can do is be as thorough and rigorous as possible and do your recon. My hope is that your daughter's judgment and your homework gives you a high degree of confidence that this guy isn't a risk, which I think you have some good reasons to believe.
[01:19:24] I would also remember that in another version of events, your daughter would be dating this guy and making this plan without your involvement, maybe even without your knowing at all. And that's her right as an adult, even if it's kind of terrifying. It also doesn't mean she's fully equipped to make the best decisions.
[01:19:40] It doesn't mean bad things can't happen to her, but she's at an age now where she's allowed to do what she wants. Part of her job is individuating from you in a healthy way and enjoying a larger degree of privacy. I mean, look, if she goes to this art school she got into, which is super exciting by the way, presumably she's gonna be making plans with all sorts of people that you don't know about.
[01:19:59] Certainly if she's not living at home while she attends,
[01:20:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: and that's what she should be doing. Yes, that's exactly right. So to that point, rather than fixating on your fear and anxiety, I would use them to educate and empower your daughter to make the best possible judgements the best possible choices for herself.
[01:20:14] You will not always be there to protect her. You can't, and you shouldn't. Like Jordan said, this trip is a very big deal for both of you because it's the first big experience that she's carving out for herself as an adult or mostly for herself. But this is really an opportunity for her to learn how to step into her individuality, her autonomy, and for you as a mom to learn how to let go and trust her.
[01:20:35] You're not going to find the peace you're looking for by keeping your daughter close and never allowing her to travel and forbidding her from dating people you don't know. You're gonna find it by helping her learn and grow and become, you know, a discerning, well-equipped adult so that you can be confident she's taking the best possible care of herself.
[01:20:53] And that might be really hard for you to come to terms with. It is for most loving parents, I have to imagine. It's especially hard for you given your special relationship with your daughter, but letting her grow up and live her life, you know, that isn't losing her. And it's not necessarily subjecting her to all kinds of terrible risks out there.
[01:21:10] It's allowing her to flourish, you know, flourish responsibly, and you guys can still be close, but the terms of that closeness are probably gonna change over the next few years, and that is exactly what they're supposed to do. And if there are any shades of enmeshment or codependency between you guys, which I think there might be, which is not unusual in parent-child relationships like yours, then part of the anxiety that you are experiencing these days might be just seeing that and starting to rewrite it, which again, that is so important.
[01:21:41] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. So just keep using these feelings to plan responsibly which you're doing, and then work through them on your own. Also, you mentioned that your daughter's in therapy. She likes her therapist. I assume she's talked to her therapist about this guy and about this trip. And if that therapist is even halfway decent, they've probably also been helping your daughter think through this and make the best decisions here.
[01:22:01] That's my hope anyway. So I don't recommend overstepping with your daughter or meddling in her therapy, but I do think it's fair for you to say, Hey, have you talked to Paul about this? Does he have any good insight? And if she's like, actually, yeah, we've been talking about this for six weeks. I ran it all by him.
[01:22:13] That might also help put you at ease. So I hope y'all have a good trip, a safe trip, an interesting trip. You're doing so much right here, and I think once you meet this guy, you have a little bit more data that they're doing okay, you'll feel a lot better. And you guys will embark on the next chapter of your relationship, which is really great.
[01:22:30] Intense for a parent, but great. And if he shows up at the airport and he is wearing those BDSM yoga cult leather bracelets that Gabe has, I would just run classic red flag right
[01:22:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: there. I don't know. It depends. It depends who his bead guy is. All right. Depends.
[01:22:43] Jordan Harbinger: Depends who the bead guy is. Yeah. If it's
[01:22:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: betas, you're good.
[01:22:45] You know, if it's Mike Shannon, your daughter's in good hands. If you're, you know, if not. Yeah, maybe. Maybe catch the next flight home.
[01:22:52] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. That's right. And, and let me know how it goes so I can prepare for this situation in 16 years with Juniper. I am taking notes over here. Hope y'all enjoyed that.
[01:23:00] I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week, and everybody who listen, thank you so much. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. The circle of people that I know, like, and trust. And I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in the six minute networking course, which is free.
[01:23:13] It is not gross, it's not schmoozy. You can find it on the Thinkific platform. Again, it's free. It's six minute networking.com. Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks. Build those relationships before you need them. Also there is a subreddit for the show. It's quite small right now, so it's kind of cool.
[01:23:29] Just small, short conversations with listeners about the episodes there. Again, it's not ours. Somebody moderates it. I've written to them. They never respond. So who knows, maybe there's no moderator. You can find it on Reddit under Jordan Harbinger. And if you don't have Reddit, don't worry about it. And if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our relaunch newsletter for the show.
[01:23:45] It's called Wee Bit Wiser. It's a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you delivered right to your inbox once a week. We are revamping the format. We're gonna make it nice and tight and short and fun. And so I invite you to come check it out. Sign up at Jordan harbinger.com/news. Show notes and transcripts@jordanharbinger.com.
[01:24:03] Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi, or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne.
[01:24:20] My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Foggerty, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And I'm not your bead guy either. Remember, we rise by lifting others.
[01:24:34] Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. Here's what you should check out next on the Jordan Harbinger Show.
[01:24:51] Clip: There is no pill that cures malignant narcissism. There just isn't. You can't take a pill for it. Character flaws are fixed and rigid, and they remain with us, and it would take heroic efforts on the part of the person to overcome these things. Only they can fix themselves.
[01:25:12] Jordan Harbinger: The point is things will not get better.
[01:25:14] So document everything. The person with the best set of records, of events wins.
[01:25:20] Clip: I have to be honest and say, look, as you said, Jordan, it's not gonna get better. Things will get worse. And unfortunately, it usually does. And the person that pays the price are those that are closest to the malignant narcissist.
[01:25:37] Once I teach you to look for these behaviors, you'll never forget them. You will be more aware and you will be able to notice them. And when we begin to accumulate these behaviors and we aggregate them, and they go into that checklist, you know, there's 130 something items on the predator checklist, and you say, wow, this person tops 50, this individual will put you at risk.
[01:26:09] They. Will victimize you. It doesn't matter where you're at. There is no safe place. There is no safe church. All it takes is one predator to undo all of that
[01:26:24] Jordan Harbinger: for more on dangerous personality types and how to spot them before they can do damage to you or those you love. Check out episode 1 35 with Joe Navarro here on the Jordan Harbinger Show.
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