1179: Sister’s Bad Beau Threatens Her Share of Dough | Feedback Friday

1179: Sister's Bad Beau Threatens Her Share of Dough | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the emotional surgeon helping me reattach the digits blown off by these doozecrackers, Gabriel Mizrahi, little 4th of July inspired nickname today. Yep. When I came up with that one, actually, I suddenly remembered this neighbor kid who lived next to us.

My parents had a cottage which had like no electricity or whatever. It's kind of this Rednecky Michigan area. And his name I kid, you know, of course, was Chopper. I'm sorry, the kid's name was Chopper. Yes, his name was Chopper and they only had an outhouse, which was like 10 feet from our property and the lake, which is really gross now that I think about it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wait, I didn't even know those existed in this century.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, yeah. They probably did get rid of it around the turn of the century, but. I remember using it, and I also remember thinking, wait a minute. So in the winter, if they have to go to the bathroom at two o'clock in the morning, they get out of the house, walk across a creek and go into the outhouse and just [00:01:00] use this miserable, smelly, disgusting outhouse.

That soundbite is getting more and more appropriate. Yeah, and I felt bad for him anyways. His name was Choppers. Really cool kid. So what made you think of him? Yeah, he was always doing stuff that was maybe not super well advised and he turned out fine. By the way. He's an awesome guy, but he one time was lighting firecrackers as he did a lot.

The fuses on these things were basically like gun powder, treated tissue paper, so some of them burned at a relatively. Stable or practical rate, but the cheapest ones, which were the ones on all those black cat firecrackers, which came in packs, those were anybody's guess, and you needed to set them down, light fuse and get away, which it literally says, place on ground light fuse and get away.

That's the only instructions on these things. And he was like, I'm gonna hold this in my hand, light it, and then wind up and throw it. And that probably worked the first a hundred times, but the 101st time it blew up in his hand. He didn't have a father and he came over to [00:02:00] my dad. My dad was always kind of hanging out and like telling him not to do stuff.

And he came over and I was there and he was like a firecracker blew up in my hand. And I was like, whoa. And I remember he opened his hand and it was covered in blood blisters. Oh God, that's so gross. 2020 hindsight, obviously traumatizing enough for me to remember. It's probably the only thing I remember from age six or whatever old I was.

And my dad was like, never hold firecrackers in your hand. I was like, copy. But again, chopper turned out all right and he was like the coolest guy. He loved Van Halen. I remember he was like super into Van Halen and in excess and all these eighties bands, and when he was 14 or 15 years old, maybe he was 16, but I doubt it.

He had a girlfriend who was 20 years old. I'm sorry, what? Stop it. Her name was Jody and I remember that because I remember being like, wow, this chick is super fine and she's 20 years old and works like at a bar.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh my God. God, you can't even drive. Why are we laughing about this? It's funny as hell in the context, but like that is so disturbing.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm gonna go ahead and just say they were definitely [00:03:00] sleeping together because I'm pretty sure he stayed at her place because otherwise he stayed in a one room thing with his sisters and his mom at one room without house. So if she had anything resembling indoor plumbing, then he would've been staying there.

At age 15,

Gabriel Mizrahi: my

Jordan Harbinger: god. With his 20-year-old girlfriend who had a job

Gabriel Mizrahi: dark and fascinating. Yeah. I have to say. Yeah dude, light fuse, get away. That's all I can say. Light fuse and get away from that entire situation.

Jordan Harbinger: And he did. He moved up north to Michigan. I'm not gonna say where 'cause Are you guys

Gabriel Mizrahi: Facebook friends or

Jordan Harbinger: something?

No, no. My dad kept in touch with him for a really long time. He likes my dad. Oh, okay. What do Chopper and your dad have in common? Well, my dad was like the only even remotely stable guy in this dude's life. And that's saying a lot. 'cause he only went up there like every weekend.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So they stayed in touch over the years.

That's sweet. Okay. Got it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I remember before his mom died, who was still my parents' next door neighbor up north, he came over and he just went to our cottage and my dad was there and he just stayed there. And my dad was like, are you [00:04:00] gonna go visit your mom? And he's, I don't really want to. And my dad was like, yeah, she's gonna die.

And he's like, yeah, you're right. I could better go. 'cause she was obviously not an amazing, stable parent either. Crazy. Does he still have a hand? Yeah, he does. As far as I see, he has two working hands. Lucky dude. Good old chopper. Now I'm gonna get an email from him. You know what, I welcome that chopper emailed me.

I'd love to catch up with you, man. Uh, it's been more than 35 years in any case. I dunno if you know this, but on the Jordan Harbinger show, but he code the stories, secrets and skills, the world's most fascinating people, and turn their wisdom into practical advice. That you can use to impact your own life and or those around you and keep onto your digits and keep all your fingers while doing it.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, organized crime figures, astronauts, cold case homicide, investigators, hostage negotiators. This week we did, uh, skeptical Sunday on Earthing. Not a real thing, being grounded.

I mean it is, but it isn't our out of the loop on Iran and Israel. And Connor Beaton, he's a men's work facilitator [00:05:00] and host of the podcast Man Talks. I know it sounds sort of red pilly. It's not. We've been friends for a long time. We talk about men's issues, how men are falling behind, especially in dating and relationships.

And we have a, uh, girthy tangent on penis size, which is just something that popped up as it does with Dix. On Fridays though, we take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and occasionally cosplay as armchair philosophers, just trying to make sense of these existential blood blisters on the old hands of life.

Speaking of men's issues, I was rereading an old Daily Dad newsletter, that's Ryan Holiday's newsletter, one of his newsletters, and I came across something that really resonated with me and I wanted to share it with you guys. So a while ago he said we, and by we, he means fathers. But I think this applies to parents in general.

We used to need so much to be happy. We talked about it recently. We needed things to go well. We needed excitement and success. We needed people to like us. We needed people's approval. But now not so much Conan O'Brien, who like any performer has some part of him that craves attention and [00:06:00] validation. He explained how his insecurity has lessened as he got older and had a family.

As long as they're all right, he said of his kids, and basically everything is all right. And I get that. I could feel that this is an incredible form of freedom. So many people think that having kids is the end of their creativity or a drag on their career. On the contrary, it can free you up to do much, much better work because as we've said, it makes you far less sensitive to things that don't matter, namely outside noise and people, it makes you so much less self-conscious.

Aren't you used to embarrassing yourself and being ridiculous now in front of your kids having kids? Yes, it does take up a lot more of your time. That is true, but it also means less time to read what people are saying about you on the internet. Less time to stew, less time to get caught up in the controversies of the moment, the news cycle.

We do better when we are not obsessed with what other people think about us. Now that we have kids, the only people whose opinions we're concerned with don't care about our work at all. So let's use that to our advantage. Now this as a dad really landed for me. I hope it means something to [00:07:00] you guys too.

And hey, if you don't have kids, you can still take some wisdom in this. Maybe it's time to stop paying attention to what other people do and say and forget about their approval. Easier said than done when you're in your twenties, but hey man, when you're in their thirties and forties, this stuff starts to really land, and I think that's very liberating.

Alright, as always, we've got fun ones. We got doozies. Always fun to dive in. Gabe, what is the first thing outta the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I've recently come to inherit a large sum of money from an uncle, but my sister Holly, was not included in the will. I believe that's because my uncle had a severe physical handicap due to spinal surgery.

And after his wife passed away, 10 years later, he became a shell of a person and didn't care for himself, let alone take care of his finances. It's not because he didn't want her in the will, he then passed away shortly thereafter. My sister was informally adopted by her father at the age of three. She was especially close with the aunt who passed away.

And she is absolutely loved by our entire family. The thing is, she doesn't know that she's not [00:08:00] in the will. The news would destroy her. She's on welfare and could use the money. Our cousins have refused to give her a share of their portion. I would split my share with her, but she's been in an abusive relationship for the past five years.

I've begged her to move to a women's shelter to get support, to help separate from her narcissistic controlling partner, but she's doubled down every step of the way. I don't see her leaving him anytime soon because they have a one-year-old together. My sister could use the money to help my niece, but I don't trust her partner.

Due to years of mental and financial control, it could disappear in a matter of months. That said, their relationship has seemed somewhat stable the past four months, but I've been setting boundaries with her because I don't want to be around him. I want to help without enabling. Do I set up a trust for my niece?

Do I invest the money for when or if my sister leaves her partner? How do I do that without seeming like I've kept the inheritance for myself and used him as an excuse signed understanding the [00:09:00] impact of and trying to keep track of this sensitive d drma.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Yeah, good question. This is a tricky one.

First of all, I really appreciate your empathy here. Your desire to do the right thing. The fact that you're not using this situation to your advantage. You sound like a great person. You mean like he's not stealing the money and just saying Sorry you weren't in the will. Yeah. Hey, you weren't the will sucker.

And then trying to keep it a secret. I don't know anything about this, which happens all the time in families as we know. It's funny 'cause I just talked to my estate planning attorney and she was telling me. Horror stories. Oh, I bet. Not tons of detail, but like enough that we're two lawyers so we can be like, I have one client that did this, and I'm like, to their sibling.

What? And they're like, yeah, they're super close. Or they were. And it's like such a shame. And it's never over, like a hundred million dollars. It's over like nothing remotely close. And you're just like, wow, you're sacrificing your sibling for this half of a garage in the Bay Area. Get outta here. Anyway. I also appreciate that you've tried to help your sister leave this toxic relationship, that you've [00:10:00] taken a clear stance with her partner who definitely sounds like bad news.

It must be very hard to watch her stay with this piece of work. I'm just sorry for both of you. You're in a tough spot here if you give her a portion of your inheritance, although I don't know how to do that in a way that's fair to you if his kids aren't willing to play ball. But it sounds like you are willing to, which is very kind of you.

But if you do that, it sounds like you'll essentially be handing the money to her partner and he'll squander it potentially. And what good does that do anyone? If you don't give her a portion, she might be quite upset with you, but this is a little confusing. You said she doesn't know that she wasn't in the will, but it sounds like you and your cousins have already received the money.

So that means Holly doesn't know that there was any money and nobody's told her so far. So the clock is ticking on that because some point she's gonna find out, and I'm guessing she's gonna be really hurt, and it'll hurt that your uncle didn't include her. It'll hurt even more that you kept it a secret from her.

So before you do anything else, I think you need to tell your sister about the inheritance. It's the right thing to [00:11:00] do. She might be angry and sad that she wasn't included. That is not your fault. That is your uncle and your aunt's fault. You don't even know. They could have drafted this thing before she was even adopted into the family, and that could be the reason for this.

Either way, if you let her know this way, you just avoid keeping a huge secret from her and creating another conflict down the line that you then have to manage. The other reason I would tell her is. I think this money is a powerful opportunity to get through to her about her terrible partner. I'm wondering if you could sit down with her and say, okay, listen Holly.

When Uncle Rob died, he left behind some money. I was surprised to learn that you weren't included in the will. Classic Uncle Rob didn't take care of himself. His finance is very well. The will is 30 years old or something, whatever. It doesn't strike me as fair. You're my sister. You were close with an jean.

I know you could use the money. I didn't create this situation, but I wanna find a way to make it right. Unfortunately, our cousins, they don't wanna give up their portion. That sucks. That's their right, whatever. I'm gonna give you half of my portion, but I have some serious concerns about your partner, how he treats you, how he [00:12:00] manages the money and your relationship.

And the truth is that gives me serious pause about sharing my peace with you guys. Candidly, I'm just worried it could disappear in a matter of months, which is just one of the many reasons that I want you to separate and protect yourself. So let's talk about this. I know it's a lot to take in. How are you feeling about the news?

Do you see where I'm coming from? What would you do with the money? How would you manage it? Is there a world where you can use this money to finally leave Tim whatever and start your own life with your kid? That kind of thing. Now, I wanna tread lightly here because there's a version of this conversation that could become subtly coercive.

You know, it's gonna sound like, fine, I'll give you the money if you do what I say and you leave Tim who I don't like. That's not really what I'm recommending, even though that would be best for her. Clearly it's more like, can you use this money to A, help her see what a liability her partner really is.

She already knows, come on. And B, inspire her and empower her to consider a new life without him. That's the best version of this conversation because relationships are complicated, but [00:13:00] one big reason people don't leave is they can't, they don't have the resources. It's not the only reason usually, but it's one of the reasons.

I'm sure there are many things keeping your stuck, so I do wonder if this inheritance coupled with your guidance and your confidence, if that could just maybe be the lever that you need to inspire her to leave. I'm not saying a hundred percent, it's gonna work, obviously, but it's definitely worth a shot.

Gabe, what's a U? Is this too manipulative or is this fair game?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think that second version of the conversation is absolutely fair game. If she leaves an abusive relationship because of this money, that would be money very well spent. But I can also see an argument for giving her the money no matter what, even if her partner ends up wasting it, simply because it's the fair thing to do in a way.

I mean, she is part of the family. She's loved by everybody. He's saying that she should have been in the will, which I do have some questions about actually, because how hard is it to amend a will and make sure somebody is included unless they're completely asleep at the wheel? But maybe we'll come back to that in a moment.

A lot of people are asleep at the wheel, but yeah. Okay, fair enough. But what she chooses to do with the [00:14:00] money directly or indirectly might be none of our friend here is business. He has a right to be concerned. I get that. And like he said, he doesn't want to enable her or have a hand in wasting the money, so I get that.

But I can see an argument that says they're all getting their portion of this money. They and the cousins, they all get to decide how to use it, whether that's wisely or unwisely. So why shouldn't Holly, I

Jordan Harbinger: hear you, but she's the only one with a villain in her life. Who lives in her house, who might essentially take it.

And was it not why her aunt and uncle left everyone the money? And it makes me kind of wonder maybe they thought about that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I guess I'm just asking how do you define right here is the right thing to do to give Holly her fair share, even if she uses it poorly or allows it to be used poorly or is the right thing to do to protect the money at all costs, even if it means depriving Holly and her daughter of their fair share for a little while.

Jordan Harbinger: As a pragmatist and a lawyer, I'm leaning towards the latter. I think my lawyer brain is also kicking in and going, okay, right is defined by what is in the will and [00:15:00] that's it. And the will was very clear, fairly or unfairly that it did not include her. Now why didn't it include her Unclear if they wrote this thing 25 years ago and she was a baby or not adopted and they forgot to update it.

If they updated it five years ago when the guy got his illness and she was with this total a-hole and they knew that he was bad news, I kind of wonder if maybe it was deliberate. If it was deliberate, as painful as this is to contemplate, and we can debate whether it's right or wrong, but if it was deliberate, maybe she does not have a right to this money.

Her aunt and uncle can give their money to whomever they want. That is their right. And also, by the way, when people update an estate, they're usually pretty conscious of, all right, we're leaving it to all the kids except Tom. They know what effect that's gonna have on the family. Usually it's not a decision that they take lightly.

And so if they did update this recently, they probably thought about this pretty hard and they were like, we're not gonna include Holly. And there's reasons for that. Okay. We don't know how they felt, obviously. But if Holly gets any money at all at this point, [00:16:00] it's because her brother is being super kind and that is a separate transaction completely.

So he gets to set the terms of that transaction, including how he manages and disperses the money.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, that's an interesting point, right? Yeah, you're right. He doesn't have to do this. He wants to do this, and he pays the price because it's coming out of his share, not anybody else's. Okay, I hear you.

Maybe it's totally fair to say, look, I'm gonna hold this money in trust for you and your daughter, or I'm gonna invest it for you guys. And when I'm confident that your partner has truly changed, which probably isn't gonna happen, or you are separated and finally safe, I will release the funds to you.

Jordan Harbinger: I am a big fan of this idea.

Honestly, the only downside is that Holly can't use the money now to give her daughter a better life, which does suck. And Holly might get angry about that. And our friend here will have to stay steady and be secure in his decision to focus on the long game. And honestly. You know the argument that she can't give her daughter a better life right now.

You can't give your daughter a better life. Not because you don't have enough money. You can't give your daughter a better life 'cause you're married to an abusive person. That's the biggest obvious [00:17:00] change. You don't need more money to buy her more things or send her to a private school if her dad is an abusive piece of crap.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Does she need the money so badly because he is mismanaging it?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. The best thing is, hey, you're gonna be able to afford college even though your deadbeat dad is spending it on booze and gambling because our friend here has a trust for

Gabriel Mizrahi: you. That's the way to do this. There's also a world where he gives Holly the money immediately, but he makes her promise to keep it a secret from her partner.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That is not a guarantee. It'll stay safe. He could find out, he could get his hands on it or they get divorced and he takes half of it. The divorce because it's the only asset that they have, and it's of course joint community of property. Once it's hers, no. If this guy is as bad as it sounds, there's no scenario in which she should have access to this money, in my opinion.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Another option though, you could put it in a joint account owned by you and your sister, and that way you can keep an eye on the balance and I don't know, maybe even set up some permissions where you have to approve withdrawals or something like that. That might be a way to thread this needle. A way to do right by Holly and protect the money.[00:18:00]

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It depends on what you mean by joint account. If it's one of those where like Holly is set up as a child and you are the actual account holder, that'll work. But if it's a joint account, then if her husband wants access to it and decides to get legal to do that, it's his money too. 'cause they're married, it's community property.

It doesn't matter if it's also yours. So that could be a nice option. Personally, I like the, I'll give you the money when you leave this narcissistic controlling a-hole approach more. I think it'll be more effective. It'll ultimately help Holly more. But these are all options. By the way, if you communicate all this openly to Holly, if you make her see that you're not trying to control her or control the money, you just want her to be stable and healthy.

It would just be, I think, very hard for her to claim you're keeping the inheritance for yourself. You're using her partner as the excuse, but you can also show her bank statements or a brokerage account or whatever to just reassure her that the money is safe and is still there. But really, this isn't just about giving her an incentive.

It's also about empowering her to see her situation clearly protect herself and her daughter, [00:19:00] hopefully take action in a responsible way, and money can be a very helpful part of that. I hope Holly listens and works with you here. I hope she gets out and takes care of herself. Good luck. You know what else you're gonna wanna share with your adopted sister who's stuck in a dysfunctional relationship, the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back.

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Now back to feedback Friday. Okay, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a US Service member and in 2022, my family and I moved [00:22:00] back from Germany to America with four kids under the age of 10. Needless to say, it was stressful. Soon after the move I caught myself fantasizing about driving off the road and ending the stress.

Jordan Harbinger: Oof, man. He's serious, right? Because that's intense. I'm sorry to hear that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's very intense. I decided to seek help and I was prescribed anti-anxiety meds. They helped so much and I felt like the world was in color for the first time in years.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Okay. Well, I'm really happy to hear that Well done for seeking out help.

I'm very proud of you. A lot of people don't take that step.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well done. Yep. Shortly after that, I felt the calling to change jobs in the military and be a chaplain. I worked really hard going to school full-time to earn my master's in divinity while still working full-time and volunteering at church.

After two years of work, I applied to be endorsed by my church, but was denied endorsement because they thought I would be declined at the Army Chaplain Accessions Board due to my use of anti-anxiety medication. [00:23:00] My medical records are available to the accessions board, and part of the endorsement process for my church is an in-depth interview with a psychologist where medication history is covered.

They said I could reapply when I've been off the medication for three years. I then had to apply for a change of station and I was given a duty station. I've tried to avoid my whole career, even though the culture in the unit is great. I am really not enjoying my job at all. I have two more years before I can apply for what I really wanna do.

I'm using this time to volunteer at a prison to get more experience, and I'm focusing on helping soldiers and improving morale here. I'm so grateful that I'm lucky enough to make a good living for my family while I wait for my opportunity to do what I feel called to do. When I drive home, I'm feeling empty and depressed, A combination of grief and burnout.

I don't wanna seek help because I'm so scared. It will show up on my medical records and I'll be denied. From this career again, I'm still on medication, but on the down low [00:24:00] I subscribed to HIMSS and just pay out of pocket to get the meds so they don't show up on my medical records, I do have resources that would be completely off the books.

For example, military OneSource will provide 10 sessions with a therapist without it being recorded anywhere. And military family life consultants are certified therapists who aren't allowed to take notes on sessions, but they also aren't allowed to prescribe medicine. Still, I'm scared to use these resources because I don't want to jeopardize my chances again, when I can reapply next year, this will be my last chance to apply before I'm too old and have too many years in.

What can I do over the next two years to stay in the present and overcome this burnout and emptiness? And is there anything else I can be doing to position myself for this last shot at being a chaplain? Signed fighting to stay happy till I can be a choppy.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Such an interesting story. We've heard from a few chaplains over the years.

Such a fascinating job. Very important, but they also go through quite a lot. It's a big [00:25:00] calling. It comes with a huge responsibility. Sorry to hear that you've struggled these past few years. Anxiety, depression, those are really tough. But I am very glad you sought out help. The medication worked. It does really suck that it got in the way of this job you want so badly.

I was actually pretty surprised to hear that it did, but all things considered it's crucial that you take care of yourself first. Obviously, I gotta say I am pretty angry and fired up to hear that people whose job is to help others and of course would encourage other people to seek help. They're apparently not allowed or encouraged to get help for themselves,

Gabriel Mizrahi: right?

Or at least not this type of help. That's unfortunate,

Jordan Harbinger: right? They are in fact being banished from the profession essentially for doing so, and possibly putting themselves at risk because now they gotta be sneaky and have this weird patchwork care team so they can get medication and then they can't talk about it at all with their doctor.

That just doesn't strike me as fair or appropriate at all. But [00:26:00] of course, this is a world we don't know super well. So we reached out to Colonel Christian, Magne pastor and Army Chaplain. Christian really came through, although he wanted to be super clear that he's speaking personally here, not on behalf of the Department of Defense or in any official capacity.

So first of all, Christian explained to us that every chaplain has to be endorsed by a Department of Defense recognized endorser. Whether they're Baptist, Lutheran, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhists, someone has to assess and sign off on them. Now, this endorser ensures two things. First, the person has been examined and supported by an outside group.

And second, that this person can work well with others in a pluralistic environment while also operating within the guidelines of their religion. And these endorsers, they're allowed to place higher standards on prospective chaplains than the Army does Actually. For example, Christian told us that some groups prohibit their chaplains from drinking alcohol.

That is not an army regulation. Obviously, if you've met anyone in the army, it's just a specific thing for that religious group. Okay. So Christian's understanding is that an endorser can [00:27:00] absolutely say, eh, we're not gonna endorse you while you're on anxiety medicine. He said that's within their rights.

Obviously many of us disagree with that. It makes no sense. But he also said that he finds it puzzling that they told you, yeah, we're not gonna endorse you because the army will say no due to the medication thing. 'cause first of all, according to Christian, it's the Army's job, not the endorsers to determine assessment standards.

So this endorser sounds like they might have jumped the gun. Second Christian's, not even sure that it's true, that the army would deny a currently serving soldier who wants to reaccess as a chaplain because of a prescription for anxiety medication. Although he did say it might depend on the specific type of medication.

This is not Christian's area. He's speculating a little. But if a soldier were on, let's say, heavy anti-psychotic meds or something like that, yeah, that could be disqualifying and perhaps that's for good reason. That's a different class of issue altogether. Christian did us a huge solid. He actually consulted with a chaplain who works in recruiting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I love that he did this just little consult within a consult. We didn't even ask him to do it. He's great.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. It's consult concept [00:28:00] over here, and that chaplain was pretty clear. He said that he did not believe anxiety medication would be a disqualifying issue. He also emphasized that medical concerns should not factor into endorsement decisions.

It's not the church's job to decide if you have flat feet, basically. So Christian's take is he believes the endorser in your case was wrong. But again, these endorsers have every right to make their own decisions. They don't have to endorse any specific candidate.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But this is where things get interesting, because we also reached out to Pastor Kevin Glenn, who's worked as a chaplain in hospice hospitals and pediatric settings.

So he has a lot of interesting experience, and he said that the use of prescription meds to treat mental health issues, that can be a disqualifying factor for military chaplaincy based on what he knows. Now, he did caveat that might be a Navy thing specifically because that's the process he went through also.

That was several years ago. So the policy might have changed since then. Now, Kevin said that you have to consider the pressure on a chaplain. We're talking about a [00:29:00] uniquely heavy, stressful, demanding job, right? Chaplains are the go-to source of support for soldiers who are experiencing everything from homesickness to what they witness in war, to the grief of losing a friend in the line of duty to.

The moral injury arising from having to take a life in the line of duty. I mean, this is intense, and a chaplain carries that load and Kevin said that they have to have the physical, spiritual, and perhaps the most important part for our purposes, the emotional health to do so. But look, Kevin wanted to be crystal clear.

There is nothing wrong with you seeking help and taking medication. In fact, he said it's the healthy and right thing for you to do based on the positive results in your life. Your first priority has to be your own wellbeing, as we keep saying both for you and your family. But Kevin also said that because you're obviously a man of character, he thinks that taking medication, getting counseling all on the dl, that will probably not at your conscience and that isn't right for you, [00:30:00] your family, or the soldiers that you might be working with down the line.

Kevin also said that this secret could possibly slash probably surface at some point, and that could be even more damaging. And also secrets are just like heavy things to carry. It's stressful. So Kevin's candid take was if you were to enter this profession in your current state, it would most likely increase your feelings of burnout and anxiety, and that's something you really want to think about while you prepare for this next chapter.

Jordan Harbinger: Two Solid Experts, two different opinions about the procedural part of this, but they're both totally aligned on the fact that he needs to prioritize himself before he can chase his dream. Christian echoed, Kevin's take, he said that this can be a very difficult message for a soldier to hear, but it's much more important to care for yourself and lose this part of your career.

Much better to be a healthy husband, father, human being, than to be unhealthy in the army and potentially cause damage to your family and other soldiers and yourself. 'cause in a way, what you're saying is that you feel so called to be a chaplain, that you're willing to compromise and possibly forsake your [00:31:00] own care

Gabriel Mizrahi: when the stakes are literally making it home from work alive

Jordan Harbinger: and to Christian.

That was quite concerning, but he also felt that this was a potential red flag about the Army too. If the army prescribed these meds, it's concerning to him that they might turn around and make that disqualifying. And obviously we don't know your medical history, but if they prescribe these meds, he feels they owed it to you to be upfront before you accepted the prescription.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that does seem a little bit unfair. Like here are the meds that are gonna make you feel better, but nobody tells you that they're gonna bar you from your calling. That sucks

Jordan Harbinger: by the way, you're fired.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly. The other thing Christian shared with us, and I found this super interesting in his experience, some people enter ministry as a form of therapy for themselves, and in his experience that generally doesn't end well.

So he had a question for you. It might be a little intense, but it's a really good one. I think the question is, are you truly called to be a chaplain or is this possibly a means of vocational therapy? Are you following a genuine calling? Is this truly your path or [00:32:00] are you chasing it for other reasons or trying to resolve your own needs through others?

And are you truly equipped to care for the people you would be serving as we keep coming back to. Now, these are not leading questions. I do not get the sense that Christian is trying to tell you what your path is, but just like Kevin, he felt that you really need to understand that if you are not well yourself, ministry will eat you alive.

To quote him here, ministry is not a profession to choose just because

Jordan Harbinger: straight from the horse's mouth,

Gabriel Mizrahi: two horses' mouths,

Jordan Harbinger: two horse's mouths. Yeah. So Christian's advice, you need a regular counselor to talk to. Christian told us that he personally seeks counseling regularly. He meets with multiple groups of pastors for support.

A counselor can help you explore the roots of your emptiness, this burnout. He also recommends finding a trusted pastor or army chaplain to talk about calling vocational stress, whether this is truly the right path for you. And he said that using a military family life consultant, that's a great resource, especially for military specific issues.

Both Kevin and Christian commented on the fact that you seem to be responding to some kind of call. [00:33:00] But to quote Kevin here, it's not unusual for one's path in ministry to include discouragement, redirection, adaptation, and unexpected turns. We are called to follow and trust, which means we are only shown the next step rather than the next 20 steps.

And that's true of chaplains, it's true of entrepreneurs, it's true of all people in many ways, really. But what I think you need to sit with is, are these roadblocks you're hitting? Are they normal bumps on the way to your calling, or are they indications that you have some work to do first? And are there other meaningful ways of exploring this calling, because you do have options here.

Kevin mentioned a few great ones looking into transferring to the Navy, where the age limit for chaplains is higher, being a chaplain assistant or religious affairs specialist, working as a hospital chaplain, a prison chaplain, even a VA hospital chaplain, laying the groundwork for becoming a pastor at a church or serving in a ministerial role in a nonprofit one day.

As Kevin put it, you might have a very bright and meaningful future, but you might also need to be flexible. So I hope that gives you some ways forward here. I hope it confirms that you need [00:34:00] to take good care of yourself first, no matter what I. Sending you a hug and wishing you all the best you can.

Reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep those emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, your neighbors, or eaves dropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or you're struggling to move forward and keep your heart open after your ex made you the villain in a loving relationship, whatever's got you staying up at night lightly.

Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, our newsletter wee bit wiser is a big hit with you guys. You love reading it. We love writing it. It's basically a bite-sized gem from us to you about a past episode delivered to your inbox on most Wednesdays.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, what's next? Hello, Jordan and Gabe. My husband and I have a very trusting relationship, and we've always been pretty independent [00:35:00] people.

We don't look at each other's phones, don't question much, and are very open with each other about what we're doing. We've known each other for eight years. Been married for almost four. We've had three amazing kids in those four years, and both work full time. So we're busy, but we still make time for each other and are both very happy in our marriage Overall.

He's an excellent father, truly incredible husband, and so good at his job.

Jordan Harbinger: Cool. Congrats. Now tell me where this all goes sideways.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You getting the shakes over there, Papa?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I gotta get a do's hit. It's been like five minutes since my last one.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Here's where I feel slightly crazy. All right, now we're talking.

Now we're talking. My husband works in law enforcement and there's a woman he used to work with. We'll call her Dee. He and Dee developed a pretty deep friendship when he began a new job and she told him she was attracted to him when they first met. She's his age and single. They talked a lot, texted each other.

He drew her a picture for her birthday. He's an artist but doesn't do that for many [00:36:00] people, and went to group meetups outside of work that included her. She was also in grad school for social work, which they talked a lot about, and he ended up starting the exact same program two years behind her. This was all when I was pregnant with our first baby.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah, not a great time to be striking up an ambiguous friendship with a member of the opposite sex.

Gabriel Mizrahi: After I found out about this, I told him that I didn't feel comfortable with him being so close to another woman, especially a single woman. He told me that he had talked to her and said that they needed to back off a little bit.

Conversations about the situation got a little uncomfortable with my husband. I did not like how it was going, but he didn't want to end the friendship. Then my husband went outta town for a work conference and didn't tell me that she was gonna be there until he was already there, which really upset me.

She Dee ended up leaving that workplace when she graduated. I thought we would move on at that point, but he kept in contact with her for grad school help [00:37:00] and ended up doing his practicum at her new company. Meanwhile, I just let it go and trusted my husband. Occasionally I would talk to him about my feelings, but he would reassure me that he was not attracted to her at all, that it was purely platonic.

She ended up leaving that place of work and went to a new one, which brings us to today. Oh man. My husband graduated with his master's in social work and is now working on a certifications and licenses. He's still in contact with Dee, and she's offered to help him with the supervision hours. He needs to get his license.

He dropped this information on me after they had already started meeting

Jordan Harbinger: this freaking guy. Man, just cannot get out ahead of this one, can he?

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's two years of weekly meetings where and D are meeting one-on-one at a coffee shop or other places. It feels so intimate.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Why can't they do this in the kitchen at his house where his wife lives?

Gabriel Mizrahi: She also now wants to start a business with him.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God. Come on. [00:38:00] That's what I think of the business idea. I know I'm overdoing the sound bites, but come on. This is ridiculous.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm trying to be objective, but I've really been struggling with all of this. His suggestion was to have her come over to her house so I could meet her.

I agreed to this because I'm really trying to understand and support my husband. She came over for dinner and it was awkward. I'm a very outgoing person and can be friends with anyone, so it was fine while she was here. But she looks at my husband in such a non platonic way. She's pretty and kind. My husband has a flirtatious personality and they were clearly flirting with each other and laughing about previous work experiences and stuff like that.

I'm not at all concerned about my husband physically cheating. It's just this intimate connection with another woman that's really difficult for me.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm just gonna say, you should be concerned about your husband physically cheating. You think so?

Gabriel Mizrahi: You think he might?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm not, look, I'm not saying he is, but given that [00:39:00] Dee obviously wants a.

The D? Yeah. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I guess so.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, I'm not trying to pile on. I'm just trying to keep it real here. Come on, man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, look, let's be real. None of this looks good and he is not handling this well. The way he's handling it is making it seem like something bad could happen or is happening

Jordan Harbinger: for sure.

Or has already happened. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But is there a world where he's just being very bad at managing the relationship and communicating with his wife, and when he says, I'm not attracted to her and it's platonic, he means it even if she doesn't feel that way.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I just think that doesn't matter, but let's continue.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We just had our third baby six weeks ago. I feel stuck and crazy. Either he keeps this up and I just let it go or become resentful toward him, or he gives up this friendship with Dee because I give him an ultimatum and then he'll need to find someone else to do his supervision hours with and he'll likely have to pay for it, which we can't afford between having our baby childcare expenses and rising costs.[00:40:00]

What do I do here? Signed making room for a third when the lines have gotten blurred. Oh boy. Okay. Jordan is very worked up about this question. I'm worked up. He has scrolling Reddit face right now. I just wanna paint a picture.

Jordan Harbinger: I do. I have scrolling Reddit face. It's so interesting 'cause I read nonstop stories like this on Reddit, and as you can tell, I definitely understand why all of this is not sitting well with you.

I just

Gabriel Mizrahi: wanna say, you have a problem my friend. You get your dues hit so hard on Fridays and you need to scroll on Reddit to get more dues from anonymous sources.

Jordan Harbinger: It's just something to tide me over through the week, man. Chill. I can stop anytime I want. Stage a little intervention for you on Zoom. That's right.

I definitely understand why this is not sitting well with you. I am sure that having a baby in the middle of it is only heightened everything, although it sounds like this was a challenge long before the third baby came along. This has been going on for what years at this point. Seems like it. You probably know this.

We talk about it on feedback Friday from time to time, but Gabe and I are just firm [00:41:00] believers that men and women can indeed be friends. They should be friends. They got a lot to offer each other, but a platonic relationship that is healthy and appropriate. It just requires a few basic things that I'm not necessarily seeing here.

One of them is being unclear terms with the other person, making sure both parties are really truly on the same page in terms of what the relationship is about, what they want out of it, all of that. Another one. Is making sure that you're giving the right priority to the people in your life. For example, if you're bringing certain topics or feelings to your friend instead of your spouse or spending an inordinate amount of time with them, or the friendship is taking away from your primary relationship with your spouse, that is an issue.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The other thing a true friendship requires obviously is this open communication we're talking about. So not telling you that he's doing his supervision hours with her until after they already started meeting, which by the way, pretty significant relationship. It's not like I had to do two quick meetings with her in 45 minutes and she signs this paperwork.

This [00:42:00] sounds like an ongoing, meaningful relationship. That's part of his training.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, well it's two years long. One-on-one, come on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And then also not telling you that he was gonna be at that conference in advance. Just all of this doesn't feel very fair. Not cool.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, imagine that phone call like, Hey hun, did you get to Vegas?

I did. And you're never gonna guess who's at this conference too. The girl that you are convinced that I'm probably banging, but I'm totally not. That I know is attracted to me, but that I told two years ago that I wasn't, and who I'm also working with every week for two years anyway. Yeah, she's staying at the same hotel and we're gonna go out for drinks later.

See ya. Come on. Ridiculous. Look, for sure, even if nothing physical is happening, this is all suss. It's disrespectful. First of all, it definitely does not help you trust him. The right way to go about this friendship is to come to you and say. This person is a colleague and a friend. We have great rapport.

We have a lot to offer each other professionally. There was some ambiguity and messy feelings in the beginning. We have talked that out. We are totally clear now. This is somebody I'd like to be [00:43:00] colleagues and friends with. I'm not gonna hide anything from you. I'm not carrying on with her. I want you to meet her so you can get to know her and see that this is just a friend and a professional colleague, and you and I are solid.

And if he can't say that and of course mean it, then either he and this woman are not on the same page or he's not managing this friendship correctly, or there actually is something inappropriate going on, or at least the high potential for that to happen. Any guy who's like, I'm not attracted to her, and she's pretty, it's just not really true.

Maybe he's not thinking about her in a sexual way. He's obviously attracted to somebody who is attractive. Yes, it's subjective, but come on, don't be ridiculous. That's actually just a dumb claim to make.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I hear that and I tend to agree with all of that, but let's just be fair for one moment to the husband, just in case there is a reality where he is not doing anything wrong and he's thinking about this differently.

Could he be thinking about this woman as a friend? Is there a legitimately professional aspect to their relationship? And he's not [00:44:00] being totally open with our friend here about their time together because he knows how she feels about her. That doesn't make it okay, but maybe that's another explanation.

I'm just saying it's possible that he's not hiding the ball because he's having an affair or wants to have an affair. But because he doesn't want hurt or provoke his wife, he doesn't want to deal with the stress of that conversation, which is also not okay. But again, it is another explanation.

Jordan Harbinger: So in his mind it's just easier to not tell you how much contact they have maybe.

But that is not actually easier, man. Especially when you find out after the fact and it looks hella shady. But that might be how he's thinking about all this, even though I think it's dumb and shortsighted.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But the fact that you don't fully understand how he feels or what he might be capable of in this friendship and that you guys are not communicating in a way that leads him to either redefine this relationship very clearly or allows you to feel comfortable with their friendship, I think that's the real problem.

That and the fact that this woman is clearly still interested in her. It's just, and that, yeah. Or was at one time, that is not a point in her husband's [00:45:00] favor.

Jordan Harbinger: No, it's not. Because even if he only thinks of her as a friend, which to be totally honest, I do not buy, given the facts here. That means that he's spending a lot of time with a woman who literally told him that she was attracted to him when they first met and wanted a piece.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And apparently openly flirted with him in front of his wife, at least according to her.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Okay. And look, if it's according to her, it's probably true because she doesn't come across as crazy here and another woman would be careful to manage this. This is a pretty damning data point. Let's talk about that dinner for a second.

Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Sounds like quite an evening.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, quite. Oh my God, when you read that part, I felt myself getting tense. I did put on my Reddit face for that because they're bantering about work and this woman's giving her husband the bedroom eyes or whatever, and he's flirting back because that's just his way with everyone and his personality or whatever.

And our friend is just sitting there like, I. Supervision hours. Huh? That must be intense. Who's got room for dessert? Honestly, I'm, I'm puzzled by all this because the whole point of that dinner was for her to get to know this woman, right? How is this woman not on her absolute best [00:46:00] platonic behavior?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's what I'm wondering.

I'm confused.

Jordan Harbinger: The point is you wanna see if she's cool and respectful and integrate the two halves of his life here, and theoretically I'm all for this. But then she comes over and she's like, yeah, no, I'm just gonna flirt with him in ogle him and let him flirt back in front of his wife and make the situation so much worse.

Why do this? I've got a couple theories. I wonder if you do.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, I don't know. I'm confused, but there are a few different explanations. I mean, yeah. Okay. So the plan was, let's introduce you to my wife. Let's build some trust. Let's show her that you and I are just this and nothing is going on. But then this woman maybe still has feelings for him and they just spilled out.

Which is reckless, but I guess that is possible. Sure. But it's also possible, again, in the interest of being fair to everybody involved, it's possible that they really are just friends and colleagues. There is a legitimate admiration and a platonic affection between them now, and they do have good chemistry, but it's not romantic.

And that came across to our friend, like flirting.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. The one I'm coming up with is that this woman is gutting for her [00:47:00] husband, but fine. That's fair. That could be the case. Or maybe it's somewhere in between the two. They're not having a full on affair. They might not even be willing to start one at all, but their feelings for each other are complicated.

And if he weren't married, they would probably hit it. And that's enough to make me go, oh, this is not really a great idea. Now, can people grow out of their feelings? Can they learn to put them away? Yeah, of course. I'm friends with women that I dated or whatever so long ago that I literally forgot that we ever hooked up or whatever, but I think that's pretty rare.

It takes a certain maturity, a certain self-awareness, and if you're really compelled by somebody, it's just really hard to turn that off completely. And I'm not really hearing that maturity or self-awareness in this dinner party. At least not on anyone's part, frankly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's the other thing. To your point, a moment ago, Dee wants to start a business with her husband, right?

So let's say that her interest in him is purely platonic and professional. At this point, it would be in her interest to win his wife over, right? Flirting with him and [00:48:00] not doing much to make our friend here feel comfortable with their relationship. That doesn't really serve her supposed goal.

Jordan Harbinger: No, but you know what it would do?

Actions speak louder than it would serve her goal. If the goal is to be with him and she's not interested in being friends with the wife, if the goal is to steal the husband away, she's on plan man.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There are a few other things in her letter that might be playing a role. I think we should just touch on them really quickly.

One of them is how she began her letter. She said that she and her husband have a very trusting relationship. They've always been pretty independent people. Now, they are not all up in each other's business, but she says that they do spend time together and they are close. So all of this on paper is fantastic, but I can also understand why that might make the whole D thing even more of a betrayal.

I trusted you completely and look what you did. And now I feel dumb among other things,

Jordan Harbinger: right? As she said, she's struggling with all this and she feels stuck and crazy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Which by the way, just to go back to having a baby, I mean, I hear that that does a number on your hormones. So maybe when you say crazy, that's part of what you're feeling [00:49:00] if things are still evening out.

But that aside, the baby thing aside, there are probably a lot of feelings wrapped up in that word. Crazy. A lot of them. Fair, maybe some informed by her own history, right? Her own tender spots as well. But reading between the lines a little bit, I'm not sure that she's given herself permission to really acknowledge all of them.

They might be getting muted by her desire to, as she put it, be supportive and understanding of him. And not an envious wife who's holding her husband back professionally because she has some uncomfortable feelings about this woman. And if she isn't really acknowledging just how difficult this has been for her, then I would imagine that it would be hard to help her husband understand what she's going through.

I want to trust you, but this is what your friendship with Dee is bringing up for me. And the way you behave together confuses me and it's painful and it's confusing, and we need to talk through this and come to a better understanding 'cause something isn't quite lining up for me.

Jordan Harbinger: Then on his side of the equation, he's giving her a wide ber, pardon the pun, but he doesn't wanna have the conversation either because he doesn't [00:50:00] wanna deal with it or he just doesn't wanna say goodbye to Dee.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also wonder if this extreme independence in their marriage might have created some distance between them. Maybe not in every respect. I'm not saying they're like drifting apart or a stranger or anything like that. If they're not totally in sync and super close in every department, did that possibly create some room for a new person to slip in?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay. That did occur to me too, like when does being independent tip over into not being super close or something. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's an interesting question, and actually the more we dig into this, I wonder if that's also part of the, I don't wanna fully acknowledge how uncomfortable this other woman makes me feel thing.

Again, I'm about to connect some dots here. I might not have this 100% right, but is it possible that being super independent and choosing to trust each other and wanting to be highly evolved and understanding and supportive, even practical, like with the financial aspect of his licensing hours, is it possible that all of that is also a way to tamp down some more primitive [00:51:00] feelings, like this anger and some jealousy and some hurt, and maybe even a more generalized gross kind of like, ugh, this other woman feeling, because those feelings are just too raw and upsetting for her to fully feel

Jordan Harbinger: interesting.

Like I'm above that. I'm open-minded, I'm independent.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly. So that might be an important first step for her. And then of course they have to talk about it. That's where the real work is gonna happen. But if they can close this gap between them, then Dee's place and her husband's life, and. The confusing way that he relates to her.

All of that might start to resolve itself. This communication piece is

Jordan Harbinger: huge. That does seem to be one of the main obstacles for them. We can't tell you for sure what your husband's relationship with D is ultimately about. I got my suspicions, but it's complicated. It's ambiguous. That's part of the problem.

I also don't know for sure that he needs to end this relationship in order for you to feel okay. My sense is that you both have some important work to do here. Your husband is getting clear on his feelings for Dee, how he relates to her, what their relationship is [00:52:00] really about, how he communicates with you about all this, and you in understanding what this friendship brings up for you.

Why this woman rubs you the wrong way, whether she really is after your husband or because their connection is maybe a little threatening to you, assuming it is actually on the up and up of course, and that might point to some work that you need to do on your own. The reward for that work, however this shakes out, will be more clarity.

More trust. Hopefully a little bit more peace as well, and good luck. You know what makes a great gift for your totally platonic side piece, define products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Quince. I've got enough going on without trying to figure out what's trendy to wear this month.

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Now, back to feedback Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I recently moved companies to diversify my skills and give myself a bigger challenge, and so far it's been a wonderful decision. I've met extremely supportive coworkers, feel adequately challenged, and am enjoying my work for the first time in my young career as a data analyst.

Jordan Harbinger: Yada yada. Your life is great. I'm working up an appetite over here. Tell me how your life

Gabriel Mizrahi: bloats. You are on one today, man. You are, uh, you're hangry for dues. Yeah. Your dues hangry. That's right. Is what you are. Yeah. I'm

Jordan Harbinger: dues

Gabriel Mizrahi: sick. I'm

Jordan Harbinger: outside shaking. You got the dts,

Gabriel Mizrahi: the, the dues Dium. Remon. Is that it? He goes on.

Then layoffs were announced. Are you happy now Jordan? Layoffs. Are you glad there's turmoil in the story? Just feel like

Jordan Harbinger: a nice release. [00:57:00] Yeah, but I'm, I'm, I want the buildup again. I want the buildup. Tell

Gabriel Mizrahi: me how it gets worse. Fortunately, I was not one of the people who lost my job. Ah, I'm so sorry, Jordan.

Just kidding. But a substantial number of people I was close with and who have spoken highly of me to other managers were not so fortunate.

Jordan Harbinger: Hmm

Gabriel Mizrahi: hmm. That's the good stuff. There you go. Yeah. Tasty. It was a shock and a real gut punch after a fantastic start to the year. I'm about three years into my career and have never experienced this before.

Some of these folks had over 40 years at the company. It was a profoundly demoralizing experience. I now can't seem to feel like the work we do is valued. When I just watched highly respected, long tenured employees get told they no longer have a position with the company. What advice do you have about handling the turmoil following a mass layoff?

How do you keep your motivation to work? Knowing everyone in the eyes of the company is expendable. Signed a young buck, still struck by how much [00:58:00] it sucks that at the end of the day, we're all sitting ducks.

Jordan Harbinger: All right, well, I totally get why this is throwing you for a loop. Layoffs are awful. They're sad, they're demoralizing, and yeah, they can leave.

The people still left standing pretty rattled. This job has been really meaningful to you in a bunch of important ways. It sounds like the layoffs punctured your idealism, which is painful. This brutal decision by management. It's forcing you to confront the uncomfortable fact that loyalty, merit, longevity, kindness.

Sadly, they don't always protect people in the workplace, which sucks, but that's how corporate life is. So the first thing you gotta do, feel the feels, man. Let the turmoil be and accept that things are just gonna feel weird for a few weeks. Mass layoffs, losing colleagues you admire that you're close with suddenly realizing how unstable things can be.

These are real wounds, so if you feel angry, sad, confused, unsteady, maybe even a little guilty, all fair, all normal, and you just gotta make some room for those feelings. Yeah, it's a form of grief. I'm sure all of your colleagues are feeling it right now, and I promise, just give it some [00:59:00] time. Those feelings will quiet down.

They'll start to shift. You guys will settle into this new normal. I also think you can turn to the other employees who survived and talk about it. Not in a way, but more in like a, Hey man, this is really hard. How are you coping kind of way? How are you staying motivated? What do you make of all this? I think that could be part of the healing, and it might also open you up to some new perspectives.

Maybe other people have a different lens on this decision. Maybe they've seen it five times before and they have wisdom to share. I don't know. It always helps to talk. The harder part, of course, is staying emotionally invested in your work, knowing everyone is expendable, and my feeling there is, first of all, I think we all need to accept on some level that we're just expendable in this system.

Certainly when we're employees of a company, all companies, even the quote unquote good ones, they will always do what's right for them and the shareholders, which means protecting the bottom line, keeping the doors open. That sucks, but that's also fair game and it's just the way it works. It's all part of growing up here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, for sure. But just because a company thinks of you as expendable, that [01:00:00] doesn't mean that you need to view yourself as expendable. One of the interesting things that these layoffs might be showing you is that you need to find a why for yourself, a connection to your work. That does not depend on how management treats you guys.

So maybe that's honing your skills. Maybe it's deepening your knowledge, maybe it's achieving certain milestones, cracking harder and harder problems with the data work you do, taking on more responsibility. Now, if you find that connection to your work that's just yours and yours alone, that doesn't mean you'll never be affected by your company's decisions.

But I do think that building your own relationship with your work does mean that you won't be quite as devastated by them. The irony is that the less you need your company's loyalty and kindness to give your work, meaning, the more you're gonna do great work for reasons that are just important to you.

And that probably means the harder you're gonna work and the more effective you're gonna be, the more valuable you'll become, and then the less likely it is that you could be fired in the future.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, because that's how you become indispensable. That's what I was getting at when I said that [01:01:00] It's ultimately good to have this fantasy punctured because now you know the real rules of the game.

You'll be drawing on your own inner resources rather than depending entirely on the companies. The other thing I would do is study these layoffs and use them to develop a game plan. So here's an intense question, but it's a good one. If you were one of the people who were let go, what would you wanna have in place right now?

Which relationships would you want to have? What kind of reputation would you hope you could rely on? How much money would you wanna have saved up? How many people would you wanna be able to pick up the phone and call and say, Hey, so crazy thing I just got laid off. I love what I do. Here's what I can offer.

I'm great at my job. Do you have any ideas for me? What kind of habits and supports would you wanna have in place, whether it's an exercise routine or a weekly game night with other professionals or. Meditation practice, whatever it is. What mindsets and mental health would you wanna be able to enjoy if you had to find another job?

You get the idea if being respected and staying at a company for a long time isn't enough to keep your job safe. That means you need other qualities, at least at this [01:02:00] company, but probably at most companies. So what can you do to today to set yourself up to survive a setback like this in the future? I would really sit with that and write down your answers.

Come up with two or three very specific things you can do to move a little closer to each one. Keep working them over and over again. That's your new system. I know you're looking for ways to stay motivated at work, but I think you're also looking for another kind of motivation. The motivation to shift your understanding of this event, to make meaning out of it, to learn how to take care of yourself better, and that is even more important, honestly.

So this is me giving you that motivation, okay? But also this is me inviting you to think about events like this as opportunities. You're super lucky, man. You have a chance to learn from this without having to pay a huge price. You get to keep your job and enjoy the lessons of this mass layoff. At the end of the day, being expendable in the eyes of your company, that is a tough pill to swallow for sure, but that's not the real risk.

The real risk is not making [01:03:00] yourself as indispensable as possible, not setting yourself up to bounce back if you ever get laid off yourself. So if you start doing this stuff, my hunch is that this chapter will actually stop being so painful and it'll start to be very empowering. But that all really depends on you and what you do.

Now you got this, man, hang in there. Work the system, and good luck. Alright, now for the recommendation of the week, I am addicted to lip Villa.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So my recommendation of the week is packing cubes. Oh, surprising. You guys know. Yeah, I know. Really weird. As you look at this weird background in my studio, as I'm packing up, as you guys know, recently had to put my entire life in basically one suitcase for this big trip that I'm going on.

Not an easy task, especially for, uh, an old clothes horse like me who loves his wardrobe wherever he goes. But these packing cubes, man, these little squares, these plastic cases that hold your stuff and then some of them compress it so it like sucks the air out of it so you can fit more into your suitcase.

Really turned out to be a game changer. But the other big benefit is just like [01:04:00] the organization, the clarity. You know, when you look at your suitcase when you're traveling and you just see this huge jumbled mess of stuff stresses me out when I look at it and you can't find the thing you need and you end up wasting a ton of time when you're just looking for that one t-shirt and a tangle of clothes, you can't find your toothbrush charger.

That's just probably more of a me thing. Yeah. But there are tons of packing cube options out there. I'm sure most of them are great. They all basically do the same job, but. Some are more durable and more sophisticated or have cooler colors or whatever than others. I'm gonna link to the ones that I bought, which really worked very well.

I think they could make travel for you just that much easier. Happy packing.

Jordan Harbinger: You know I use this when I travel a period. I've got these little, I think it's like e bags or something. I've got like the underwear one and the socks one and then I've got a laundry one and it's so nice when you arrive to just open this stuff up and you don't have like bundles of clothing everywhere.

It's very nice. I know you're packing real stuff, but yeah, even when we used to pack gear and stuff to do the show remotely, I had packing cubes for everything. Cameras, lenses, electronics. I still have some here 'cause I still [01:05:00] occasionally run my own technology. So yeah, it's real nice not to just have everything thrown into a suitcase.

Also, folks, in case you don't know, there's a sub Reddit for the show. A lot of really cool discussions going on there. If you wanna discuss the show, the episodes themselves or philosophical, I don't know, crap. Ola with our show fan. Definitely check it out. The Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Alright, Gabe, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 31. I just lost my job. I'm in the process of losing my apartment since I won't renew the lease without a job offer and I have no choice but to move back in with my mom for the second time in 12 months. I'm also 377 days sober as of this, writing from cocaine, alcohol, marijuana, pills, shrooms, and just as much from chasing dopamine through food, women, and external validation.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Okay, so first of all, this dude had a job while he was on cocaine, alcohol, marijuana, pills, shrooms. If I were on cocaine, alcohol, and marijuana pills and [01:06:00] shrooms, I don't think I would've the energy for a career, let alone to also chase women in external validation.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. He must have excellent

Jordan Harbinger: time management.

That's what I'm saying. This man's Google Calendar is regimented to sell every 15 minutes accounted for. This guy needs to sell a course lots, bro. Yeah, yeah. Seriously, I'm very, look, I'm very sorry you're going through a tough time. I can only imagine how hard that is, but let's just take a moment to appreciate what a massive accomplishment this year long plus sobriety is.

Yes, you should be super proud of yourself. That amount of addiction kills many people. I would even say like most people who are on all that stuff, can't get off all of it. I know that's gonna make getting back on your feet a lot easier, the fact that you're sober and so much more rewarding. Also shout out to your mom for being there for you during a tough time.

I know living with a parent later in life is probably not ideal, but what a gift. Give that woman a huge hug and tell her how much she means to you. I bet it would mean a lot for her to hear that, and I bet you that she's proud of you, even though you're a little bit down on yourself right now. [01:07:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm now beginning step nine of my 12 step Narcotics Anonymous program, making amends to those I've harmed.

I understand that being an active addiction in no way excuses or justifies any of the pain. I caused people along the way, and I want to help people feel that I've truly changed my actions and choices are different now, but the deeper intangible changes my mindset, my values, my worldview, how I show up, my sense of self, who I am as a person that doesn't come with a certificate.

As I have these amends conversations, how do I show the people I've hurt that the internal transformation is real? That not just talk. Also, my former girlfriend used clear and final language to confirm that there is no path forward for us. While I'm not ready yet, eventually I want to build something real with a new romantic partner.

How do I share my full story? Addiction, infidelity, everything without scaring off someone new. Any thoughts on how to show up? [01:08:00] Honestly without turning the idea of dating me into a warning label? Signed Selling the shift to heal these rifts and trying not to be dismissed on my future Tris.

Jordan Harbinger: Warning labels of a funny visual warning.

I am a lot of fun, sometimes way too much. These are really excellent questions. First of all, what you're doing right now, working your program, opening yourself up to help in a tough time, wanting to repair your relationships, I really think that's extraordinary, dude. It takes hard work, discipline, vulnerability, a real commitment to growing, and I'm just very proud of you for that.

The rest of your life might feel very unstable right now, and I get that, but from where I'm sitting, you are doing the most important work of all, and this is really the foundation for everything else, these amends conversations you're gonna be having soon. They're a huge part of this healing. I hear that they can be quite profound.

I love that you're really thinking about how to communicate this change to people, how to move beyond just words that tells me you're taking this seriously and these conversations are probably gonna [01:09:00] be very productive. So you're right, words are important, but they only go so far. My feeling is you are absolutely welcome to talk about your transformation.

I bet that would be very meaningful. But you can't just talk about your change. You have to live that change. And that means two things. First, wherever possible, look for ways to take action to actually do things that reflect your new values, your new mindset. It's one thing to sit down with an old friend and say, Hey, listen man, I'm really sorry I stole that money from you when I was in active addiction.

I feel terrible about it. I hope you can forgive me. It's quite another to apologize. Hand them 200 bucks in cash. Ask if there's anything else you can do to make it up to them. Or let's say, I don't know, maybe you caused a scene in someone's birthday party. You could just go Look. I'm sorry I acted like such an a-hole at your birthday party.

I'm embarrassed. I feel terrible. I'm so sorry. I hope you can forgive me. But imagine how much more powerful it would be to say, I'm so sorry for what I did at your birthday party, and if you can forgive me and give me another chance, I would love to throw you a birthday party at my house this year. I don't know.

You live with [01:10:00] your mom. She might not be keen on that, but you know what I'm saying. Or let's say you damage someone's property, you swipe your car against their garage door or whatever. Yeah, you could say you're sorry and hope they forgive you. If you show up at their house with a bucket of paint and a brush and you spend half a day fixing it, I really just think that says so much more.

These are just examples. You get the idea for every person you plan to make amends to. I would take some time to reflect on the harm caused, the impact of your behavior, what you could do to remedy or heal it, and then I'd make that offer part of your conversation assuming that it's appropriate and reasonable.

Of course, I dunno if you killed someone's puppy or something, you know, I'm sorry, that's super dark, so brutal, super dark. I'm just picking an extreme example. But if you did something like that, I would not show up to your men's chat with a new puppy in a basket. Like, here you go, all fixed. Obviously this a little tone deaf.

This maybe a little presumptuous. Also, look, some people, they might not want you to do anything for them. They might not want hear from you. I don't know how it goes. Maybe your sincere reflections and apologies are enough for some people. [01:11:00] You might want them to accept your offer before you go ahead and make a grand gesture.

And also this is probably gonna be an ongoing process. For example, if you faded away from certain people in your life while you were using, if you missed major events, you bailed on plans, stuff like that, then the action might be showing up consistently for a while, showing them that you wanna be a meaningful part of their life.

So you show up to the birthdays and the graduations. You attend the anniversary party, you send the birthday card every year, that kind of thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, totally. I'm with you, man. Verbs over words, right?

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Exactly. Deeds over screeds.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Nice. I like that. That should be a feedback Friday thing. There you go.

Deeds over screeds feel for deeds. I totally agree with what you just said. It's really how he shows up that counts. But I still think words can be very powerful. And like you just said, Jordan, sometimes for some people in certain relationships, it's just the words that they need. They don't need the action.

But when you sit down with somebody, you've hurt and you say, listen, I know I broke your trust. I know I hurt you in this way. I deeply regret it. I'm sober now. I've done a lot of [01:12:00] work on myself since then. I am so sorry. I hope you can accept my apology. Whatever version of that you end up going with, I would really make sure to tap into your feelings and make sure you mean it.

So speak from the heart. Look the person in the eye. Bring that sincerity that these conversations deserve. Don't phone it in. Don't skate on the surface because yes, Jordan is absolutely right, the proof is in the pudding, but if you really mean what you say, if you open your heart to these people, that is gonna make a huge impact too.

I think people really feel that.

Jordan Harbinger: As for dating, now that you're sober, that's a really interesting question. I get why it brings up some anxiety for you. I'm guessing you feel some shame around certain aspects of your story. You mentioned addiction, infidelity, that's very normal. And then there's the fear about how a new person will respond to those things, which is always a question mark.

My feeling is, first of all, you need to accept and integrate all these parts of your story, including it, especially the shameful parts, before you can really communicate them to somebody new. I can already hear you doing that in your letter. That's one of the things that 12 [01:13:00] step programs do really well.

As you embrace these things, I think it'll get easier and easier to tell people about your past. So much of their reaction is gonna depend on your relationship with these facts. So if you're uneasy and ashamed about certain things, if you're still hiding the ball a little, a new person is more likely to tighten up and follow certain judgements.

But if you're like, yeah, so I was in active addiction for X years. I was outta control, and when I wasn't taking care of myself, I used this and that substance I cheated on my ex. I behaved in a way that I'm not proud of, and that's why I decided to get sober and become a different person. And I've done X, Y, Z things, including all these men's conversations to show up in the world as that new person.

That is a very different conversation also, that's inherently attractive to most people, right? When you're willing to own this personal stuff, it's vulnerable. It requires a certain degree of comfort and confidence, and it creates a lot of trust and intimacy. Also, bonus points, if you're a good storyteller, especially if you can make the person laugh along the way, it's amazing what we're willing to forgive when we find somebody funny and relatable.

So in my experience, this is [01:14:00] really about self-acceptance, vulnerability, integrity, and accountability. You get those right, and I'm confident it'll land in the right way with most people.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I feel the same way, but he also has to go into these conversations accepting that people might have a range of responses to his past and he can't control that, which is very distressing.

You know, you want people like you, you want them to approve and all of that. He can do a lot of good work to maximize the likelihood that somebody is gonna respond well to him. But he also can't manage his story in a way that's designed to guarantee that they're gonna embrace him.

Jordan Harbinger: That wouldn't be authentic either.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly. Also, it might be a bit of a risk for him specifically given his history of chasing dopamine right through women and external validation. I do wonder if that might be part of his question, what he might be looking to accomplish with these people, or maybe some needs he might be trying to fulfill in having these conversations and having them go perfectly.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. 'cause if he's going into these dates like, Hey, this is me. This is who I was, this is who I am now, just want you to know, [01:15:00] take me or leave me. I say bravo. But if he's going into these dates subtly looking for approval or interest, or he is tying his entire sense of self-worth or progress to the reactions that he gets, that's gonna be a problem, and that's something else he might wanna explore during this period.

Also, on a more practical level, I would really choose the right time to share your past with new people. You probably don't wanna overshare every detail in the first 15 minutes. It doesn't need to go in your dating profile or whatever, but you also don't wanna hide key aspects of your story until the third month of dating somebody and risk making them feel like you've been lying to them the whole time.

Again, congratulations on getting sober and taking care of yourself. I know this is a tough time for you, but I'm confident something great is waiting for you and you'll get back on your feet soon, man. And your sobriety in this new mindset of yours, they're gonna play big roles in that. Good luck. Don't forget to check out our skeptical Sunday on Earthing, our out of the loop on Iran and our interview with Connor Batton on guy stuff.

Not just guy stuff, but stuff regarding guys worth a listen, whatever you got dangling down there. The best things that have [01:16:00] happened in my life and business have come through my network. The circle of people I know, like and trust. You hear about it all the time on the show. It's all the stuff those spies be using.

I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our Six Minute Networking course. The course is free. There's no catch. It's not gross. It's free on the Thinkific platform@sixminutenetworking.com. The drills take a few minutes a day, but you can binge it all if you want. Dig that well before you get thirsty.

Build relationships before you need them. Sixminutenetworking.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I am at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Instagram, Gabe Mizrahi are on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi.

This show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty. Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas. Of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Always here. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before you implement things you hear on the show.

Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the [01:17:00] advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.