1394: Wife Cheated with Friend, But Must Marriage End? | Feedback Friday

Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the inoffensive plant-based mozzarella to my dank, unsubtle gorgonzola, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You just recited my order at the last three restaurants I visited. That was great.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I want that pasta that smells so good, but take all the flavors out and all that stuff. Yeah. I know your substitutions.

Your substitutions. Is that a real word? Probably not.

Probably not. But I loved it. That sounds like one of those...

Yeah. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker, and during the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, rocket scientists, drug scientists, former jihadis, undercover economic hitmen, you name it.

This week, we had Jeff Schoep, former neo-Nazi, and Andrew Herr on travel health, staying healthy in the sky and at hotels, and even avoiding a little bit of jet lag. He's the inventor of FlyKitt, a product I'm a huge fan of. So that's an especially practical episode.

On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and compare ourselves to various obscure cheese genres.

Jase Sanderson: Hey, show fam, producer Jase here. If you want to close your eyes and drift across Gabe's silent meditation retreat post-game wrap-up, you can jump to timestamp 28 minutes and 40 seconds. Enjoy the show!

Gabriel Mizrahi: So, Gabe, you're just coming off your silent meditation retreat, yeah? Yeah, I just finished a couple days ago. Quite an experience, I have to say.

I bet. How was it? It was pretty awesome, man.

I have a lot of thoughts. I'm still making sense of everything. It wasn't perfect.

I have some notes, but overall, it was really, really great. I'm glad I did it. Really?

Yeah, it was very eye-opening, the whole experience.

Jordan Harbinger: So many questions. So, first of all, was it as hard as you thought? Because my thing is, oh, just it's a nightmare not being able to talk for that long.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It wasn't, actually. I was really surprised. Not hard.

Not hard to be silent. Tell me more. I mean, explain how five days of silence is not excruciating.

So first of all, let me paint you a picture. The retreat took place at this Benedictine monastery that I told you about that dated back to like the Middle Ages. And there was a church next to it with paintings from hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

It was stunning. And it was in this tiny little town called Maguzano on the southwest corner of Lake Garda, which is a really beautiful place. And when you walk around this property, you feel like you're in one of the houses of one of the major families in Game of Thrones.

I was just going to say GOT. Yeah. 100%.

Like courtyard, cloister, like, you know, archways and... Benedictine monks. Are those the...

Oh, guys. I don't know the sounds they make, actually. And actually, they were not involved in the retreat.

It was just, we were just sleeping in their monastery while the retreat was taking place. So I don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: Like, hey, I've got a group of people. Easy money. They're going to be super quiet the whole time.

And the guys are like, they better be quiet. And like, actually, let me... It's a silent meditation retreat.

And they're like, all right, make the check out to...

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

I would like to know more about them. I didn't see very many walking around the property, but there were other groups there and some were affiliated with the monastery and some were just renting the space. I think they just rent out the space a lot.

Yeah. The monks all live in Milan now and brew beer or whatever. Drinking espresso by the train station.

That's right. It was amazing, though. They had like a cemetery in the back for monks and nuns who lived and died there.

And they had these beautiful olive groves on the property. And the monastery makes its own olive oil and sells it, which I had never seen before, by the way. That made me laugh.

Jordan Harbinger: The monks are often entrepreneurial. You know, like you think, oh, they're just sitting around, but they make beer, cider, I guess if they make olive oil too. My buddy was a monk.

I mean, he was a Dandapani. He was not a Christian monk or whatever, but they made websites. That's right.

So his thing was monk with a MacBook because they were all on Apple making websites in like the nineties and the early aughts.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I completely forgot about that guy. Yeah. That's so funny because usually they make like jams, honeys, beer.

Jordan Harbinger: Now they're like, which one of you guys knows Ruby on Rails? That's right. Who's our Ruby on Rails guy?

Oh, that would be so-and-so straight from India.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We're meditating at 5 a.m. guys, but by 8 a.m. I need that Squarespace page up because we've got to pay the bills. So I was invited to this thing by my friend Itai who lives in Berlin now and another friend from the States who lives in Berlin too. He joined us and there were like 40 to 50 people there, which I did not expect.

I thought it was going to be like eight or 12 people or something. Most of them were Italian, handful of Americans. Most of them were actually psychologists or somehow related to the mental health field because the association that organized the retreat is run by therapists and they do a lot of programming for therapists and psychologists and they do a lot of content for this industry.

And man, there were all types of this thing. I would say like half of the participants were maybe 60 or older. A third were like 40s and 50s and 20% were 20s and 30s.

It was a great group. Like everybody was super sweet, super cool, but you definitely get some interesting personalities.

Jordan Harbinger: Wait, wait, wait. How do you know if they're super cool if you can't talk or they're just smiling at you or?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. Okay. Actually, that's basically it.

Just how they look at you. Vibes. Vibes.

Yeah. But also towards the end of the retreat on the last day, we were allowed to talk more and then you get to know people. So that's got it.

That's the other way that I know, but you could just feel like everybody there was there because they wanted to learn. And when you can't speak to other people, you have to find other ways of communicating, right? Or just being a thoughtful participant, right?

So the way somebody pours you a cup of hot water for your tea after they make the hot water or somebody holds a door or just the way they look at you when you cross paths in the hallway, like these things paint a picture. You don't always get a read, but yeah, you suddenly become very conscious of those cues when you can't talk.

Jordan Harbinger: If they were all Italian, were they touchy also? Like, are they like, here's your tea rubbing your shoulders, but not saying anything?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Not on this one. Okay. One of the rules at the beginning was like no romantic or sexual contact at all on this retreat.

Okay. But yeah, but like rubbing your shoulder is not sexual or romantic. It's kind of, it can just be like nice, but people were very well behaved.

That's how I'll put it.

Jordan Harbinger: It's so interesting that there's no romantic or sexual contact because theoretically what that means is regardless of the fact that nobody can talk somewhere, some point, some couple was just like, let's bang without saying a word before, during, or after, unless they broke the rules. Yeah. Like imagine, I don't know how to report this without talking, but there's two people banging in the dormitory.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm sure the teacher has seen all kinds of things happen, but the rule is designed to keep the space well safe, right? But also like pure, like we're not here for that for four days. We're not here on that level.

We're here on another level.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You know, it helps. There's someone out there who's like right now in real time discovering that maybe they have a kink for this kind of thing.

Like no talking. A silence kink. Yeah.

Because clearly like you just need the right two people who have sort of the physical chemistry and the immediate onsite thing and then are like, wait, this is kind of hot.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We can't talk. The flip side of everything I'm saying is that if you do click with somebody and you can't talk, then you really click with them.

Jordan Harbinger: And yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a good point.

Jordan Harbinger: Pure chemistry. Pure chemistry. And then you talk to them and you find out they're super irritating.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Like, oh, I liked you so much when you couldn't speak. Yeah. Can we just go from silent retreat to silent retreat?

Can you be my silent retreat side piece? How about a rule for our relationship is just no talking about anything at any time.

Jordan Harbinger: But it's, we call it meditation, babe. It's meditation. Yeah.

We're just being present. There's always an interesting bunch of people at any sort of wellness or self-help retreat, right? That's kind of a given.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Always. I could do like an hour just on the people. Like there, there was like the former jazz singer, 80 years old, it was like obsessed with the bells.

Like would not shut up about the bell. But they can't talk. Well, on day one, when we arrived, we could talk and she was like, can we get wake up bells at 7am? And then I see during Q and a, you can talk. That's what it was. There was a half hour of Q and a every day and we were allowed to speak that.

And then she was like, I just would like to say, I asked for bells and I got bells. We're like, okay. And on the last day she thanked everybody for the bells.

I don't know why I'm talking about this woman. Every single person had something funny, but we don't have enough time for that. But I will say this.

It was actually a bit hard at first knowing that everybody there was very interesting because when you can't talk to anybody, you just have to sit there wondering how everybody got there and like, what is their story and what are they wrestling with? And everybody's just sitting in silence and you can't find out. So you just have to sit there with that.

Jordan Harbinger: No, I could not handle that. So like, I'll see somebody not just in the wild, obviously I would never do this, but if I'm at a group thing and I see somebody with a crazy tattoo, I'm like, Hey dude, none of my business, but we're going to be together for six days. What's up with that tattoo?

That thing is crazy. And they're like, Oh yeah, I actually got that in a concentration camp in Bosnia when I was a kid. And you're like, Oh, I need to hear all about this.

But also that sounds traumatizing and I probably shouldn't ask any more questions. But yeah, I couldn't just be like, what is that? Why do you have this set of dots that seemingly meaningless on your hand or whatever?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a perfect example. Yeah. And there were people there who had amazing tattoos and I would be sitting there and being like, Oh, I really want to ask her what that is.

Right. Q and A.

Jordan Harbinger: Hi, I want to know why Janice has those tattoos on her arm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. Do you have anything on like the sutras?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Is it a sutra tattoo? Maybe it's a sutra tattoo.

Janice? Yeah. That's me during Q and A.

That's why I can't handle it. So your feedback Friday brain must have been going insane, but that again is part of the meditation, right? Like I guess the curiosity pull you, but then I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Don't let it pull you. Whatever. Yeah.

I mean, you didn't have to make fun of it, but yeah, I do have to make fun of it. That's more or less what it was. For me, it was like, for me, it was like, there's a part of my brain that really wants to ask that guy why he's sad or where that lady got those glasses or that wants to talk to somebody about what the teacher meant when he said that thing during Q and A and just, you can't indulge it.

So you just have to let that impulse be without acting on it. And yeah, I think that was part of the retreat. So who was the teacher, mind shaman, facilitator, whatever the word is.

The teacher was the somewhat famous meditation teacher, an American guy, but I think he's Italian from Italian descent. And this guy was the most unlikely meditation teacher you could imagine. He was like a short, thin man with a shaved head, thick rimmed glasses, brightly colored screen, printed t-shirts and jackets that didn't match and pants that didn't match.

Like every day it was like a different set, full sleeve tattoos, speaking of tattoos, like on his right arm, he had a tattoo that said blessed and it was wrapped in what appeared to be octopus tentacles just to give you like one tattoo. Like it just, I don't know, man, you took a one look at this guy and you're like, this dude has been through some shit. I don't know what it is, but he's been through it.

You know what he looked like? He looked like a guy who would wander into Saul Goodman's office. Oh man.

Like he sold Walter White methylamine in one episode, but he's also weirdly philosophical. This guy was so sweet, so gentle, always smiling, very respectful, super low key. It was just so unexpected, like not what I imagined at all.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Oh wow. Okay.

So I was picturing, I don't know, a guy in an orange robe or something, or at least flowy yoga pants, man bun. Russell Brand. Yes.

You were picturing Russell Brand. Correct. That's literally who I was imagining more or less.

Yes. So one of those, what is it, Kundalini people that dress in all white, someone who drinks fennel tea. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The complete opposite. It's funny and unexpected, I suppose. So he would give a half hour talk once a day and they were these very folksy down to earth lectures and every single day it was a different theme.

One day it was compassion, another day it was joy, another day it was like gratitude or envy or whatever. And so during one of these talks he made a comment like, I can't remember exactly what he said, but it was something like, you know, sometimes when I'm dealing with some minor irritation and I can't do anything about it, I feel like I'm back in prison again. And I was like, oh, yeah, damn.

So I was correct. This guy has been through it.

Jordan Harbinger: Although I'll be honest, that's the kind of comment I would make at a place where nobody could ask questions just to let it hang over everyone. This reminds me of when I was on the run from the cops for half a decade anyway. So when you are in Lotus position and everyone just looks at each other and you're like, folks, presence, presence.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I gather that he was kind of a storyteller. And so he probably understood how that like hooked our curiosity in a certain way.

Jordan Harbinger: It's kind of like hiding a body. You just put one leg over the other and you smash them together. Anyway, I hope that metaphor makes sense and lands for everyone.

Back to silence. Bing. Talk about bearing our thoughts.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, no, you could feel it, dude. He was very open about a lot of his life. He actually cried a few times during the retreat, talking about certain things or certain people.

Like, I don't know, at one point he talked about his father, who I guess is very sick and he's going to go visit him nearby. And then he started crying.

Jordan Harbinger: Good for him being able to just like do that right there and not feel super self-conscious about it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: At the drop of a hat, dude, with like no shame. And then he just started laughing like, man, life is crazy, huh?

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, that's a skill. I wish like sometimes I feel like crying and I'm like, how do I do this again? I literally can't remember.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I need I need time to go to this guy's retreat because the day after I left, I didn't cry during the retreat. But the next day I was doing yoga at my Airbnb. Yeah.

And when I finished, I was rolling up the mat. I started crying. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. No. For me, it's so hard for me to access my emotions a lot of the time.

I guess I'm half joking about like, oh, I forgot how to cry. But no, no, no. There's all these everything always hits me like days or weeks later.

I didn't even cry when my cat died and it took like weeks for me to do that. And then I was like, am I why is this so late? This is weird.

I'm being weird. And then I got all in my head about it and stopped. So what do you think it is?

I think guys generally in the as well as me, I should say, many men, I think, share this. We just don't do that for so long that we're like not. It's just not a skill that we have anymore.

Like accessing emotions other than anger or frustration. They're buried deep in there and you have to like take time to get them out. And you're like, why would I do that?

And if crying is bad.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It definitely does not come as easily to us as it does to the ladies, I think generally. But I also think like you're we have so many defenses against these things and so many distractions. And when you're in a place like that and you don't have those things, it just comes really easily.

Jordan Harbinger: I bet. So you guys were otherwise in silence the whole time. You're supposed to be.

I would call it an Italian silence. OK, so like Italians are some of the loudest, funnest people on planet Earth.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I can't imagine that that's very quiet. It was flexible. Sometimes I would go into the break room to make tea or fill up my water bottle, especially at night after the programming was over and we had free time.

And there would be like four or five people sitting around the snack table just having a chat at the silent meditation retreat.

Jordan Harbinger: And you're not like, you're supposed to be quiet. I want to cheat, too. What are you guys talking about?

Italy doesn't seem like the ideal location for a bunch of restraint all at the same time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yuta and I mostly kept the silence, but sometimes we needed to communicate with each other or we just couldn't help ourselves and we needed to like do a bit about something that happened on the retreat. So we would type each other notes in the notes app on my phone. Also this is funny.

He is show running an animated series right now and they're in the process of drawing all of the characters for the show, right? So he had to respond to emails from the team.

And then one night at two in the morning, he had to go down to the courtyard to have a fight with one of the producers about the mockups for the characters because they had a bunch of disagreements, which is just the most L.A. thing you could do at a Vipassana retreat.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Sorry. Sorry.

Shifu or whatever. I like Zen master. Yeah, that's the Chinese word.

It's probably a private user, but it's like, sorry, Shifu, I have to go outside to make a quick call. Ooh, that's really against what we're doing. I fucking told you to get the damn, if he doesn't have ears that look like a rabbit, how is he Mr. Rabbit's magical ride?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right.

Jordan Harbinger: God damn it. Anyway, namaste everybody.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Everyone's trying to respect the noble silence. He's scream whispering in the cloister to some guy named Todd back in L.A. about his Hulu series. Yeah, exactly. What do you mean it's going to be on Tubi? You promised me a streamer, a major streamer.

Yeah. So did he win the fight? He won the fight.

But most importantly, he's not fired. He woke up the next morning feeling very victorious. So I guess the silence did him good.

But yes, theoretically, for those four or five days, you're supposed to be off your phone and you're supposed to be silent. Just go inward as much as you can. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: And you're meditating the entire time. I can't think of anything I'd rather do less than that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, we know how you feel about it. Yeah. But actually it's not.

This is part of why I was able. I was like, oh, this isn't that bad. So typical day is you wake up at seven with the bells, which I recorded and I can send you and then you do silent meditation from seven thirty to eight.

Then it's breakfast. Then it's walking meditation, which just means you can wander the property and you're supposed to be very meditating about it. Don't listen to a podcast while you do it or whatever.

And then there would be a talk from the teacher, unless it's ours, of course, and then you're allowed to. He specifically said that. He specifically allowed Feedback Fridays.

He said if it's Feedback Friday and it's Friday, then you're allowed to listen. Great. Perfect.

Jordan Harbinger: Can you listen to music as long as there's no words or no?

Gabriel Mizrahi: He never said you can't do any of that stuff, but he said, I highly encourage everybody to stay off their phones. Give yourself the gift of this time off your phone.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, I think it's implied. No music, no podcast, no books.

Jordan Harbinger: If that's cool that they're not precious about it, though, like, OK, you have something really you're going to lose your job. You don't need me to be like, tsk, tsk, tsk. You're on your phone.

Exactly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I appreciate that, too. And then there would be a talk from the teacher at like 10 and then guided meditation with a based on the theme of the talk from 1030 to 11 and then another walking meditation and then more silent meditation and then walking again and then lunch.

And then you would break for a few hours. You could take a nap or go for a walk or journal or whatever, and then you do it all again in the afternoon. And then it would wrap up around 9 p.m. Gosh, even one day of that would drive me nuts.

Jordan Harbinger: But I guess that's why you do it. It sounds really intense. I think I'd be that guy faffing off in the Olive Grove, taking a nap in the cemetery while everybody sits in a lotus position for two and a half hours and say, Jordan, where'd you go?

Oh, I needed alone time. But I totally meditated while I was out there, I think.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Everything is meditation. If you're just staring off and staring off into the distance. Yeah.

I don't know. I've got to say, this guy's approach to meditation was really awesome. He was just so chill, so down to earth, very simple, no pretension, no airs about him.

There's no like this is the way it's done. You have to do it perfectly. You have to do it like this.

You're not doing it correctly. He was just very welcoming and very practical. I liked that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's cool. I always appreciate it when a teacher is like that. It's the ones who dress up and are super prescriptive that tend to tend to get on my nerves.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. I agree. The first day when we went into the first meditation that he said, sit down, close your eyes and whatever you do, please do not meditate.

And I felt myself relax. And I was like, okay, this guy's on the level. He's cool.

I can do this.

Jordan Harbinger: That's great. So he's like, hey, don't try to meditate. And you're like, oh, then I can just sit here with my eyes closed.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And he's like, oh, they're meditating now and they don't even know. I think he was helping us not get in our own way. You know, like, don't try to have this experience, just have the experience you're having, whatever that is.

And that's all you need to do. He barely defined a meditation like he would say things like the obvious things. But he would say it very little, like, notice your thoughts when your mind wanders, bring it back.

That's it. Just do that.

Jordan Harbinger: Any quick gems you can share from the retreat, you know, so I never have to do anything like this myself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I've got to say, this dude surprised me in the topics he chose because he went to some places I did not see coming at a meditation retreat. Although now on the other side, I think maybe that made him a meditator, some probably part of his journey. But one thing he said early on that I really liked, he quoted his teacher who said, we don't ask questions for answers.

We ask questions to generate interest.

Jordan Harbinger: OK, so does his teacher listen to Feedback Friday because that sounds like something you would say?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I know. So much of this week was so Feedback Friday coded. It was hilarious.

I was like, OK.

Jordan Harbinger: So what he means is what the answers are less important than the process, probably.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Yeah. Then the process and less important than the information that the question reveals, which just lead to more questions, you know?

Yeah, I like that.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, I love a good answer, but I get it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Another thing he shared that I liked, and this is not new, but he said it in a new way. He talked about how important it is to be very friendly to yourself when your mind wanders during meditation to just be like, oh, there you go again. Let's come back. Like to be nice about it, to not be harsh.

Jordan Harbinger: I meditated a lot in high school and I was really not easy on myself. I was always like, why can't you do the simple thing? Gosh, you suck at this.

You know, I was really beating myself up a lot. I didn't have a meditation teacher. I was just trying to do it.

I read books and stuff. Yeah. But I think if there'd been actual resources for this for a 16, 17 year old kid to learn this stuff other than like a karate class where they're trying to pretend they're in the military half the time, then I probably would have stuck with it or done more of it or been better at it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. But here's the thing. I was doing that too.

And I think most people there were doing that because you realize when you have to sit there for that many hours, you realize how insane you are and how your mind has this momentum and it just goes anywhere but in the moment that you're in. Right. And so I was also talking to myself that way, like, oh, I suck at this. Like you're crazy. Like what's wrong with you? Why can't you focus?

But I loved his reason for saying this. He said something like you're more likely to come home, meaning like literally to come home to visit your family. Right.

You're more likely to come home if you're treated with kindness when you return. Oh, I like that. Yeah, that's true.

I just found it helpful. And then I started thinking about that idea in every part of my life, especially with the writing, because, you know, it gets hard and it's always hard. And my tendency is to go like, well, you have no idea how to do this.

You're clearly not a good writer. You should know how to write this scene by now. You can't even focus on the, you know, maybe you chose the wrong story. Maybe you're not a real writer. And then I'm like, oh, no wonder this is torture.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. A lot of harsh talk, a lot of judgment. Same with working out. I mean, the same with any skill that you're learning or that you're doing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, absolutely. This whole idea of be kind to yourself, be compassionate to yourself. I have to confess, I find it incredibly cheesy.

I don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yeah, of course.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And trite. And just like very Hallmark, Carty. And I've never been able to really embrace it.

Jordan Harbinger: It's all Instagram quotes for me. I get it. I mean, I guess it doesn't mean it's not true. But whenever I see that stuff, I'm just like, whatever, my eyes roll.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And that is why I love the metaphor he used, you know, about coming home, because he took this very familiar idea to a new place. And then my mind was able to go, oh, yeah, of course. What would happen if I wasn't punishing myself for not doing something correctly?

Maybe I would do it more. What a concept. Another thing I liked, one of his talks was about the topic of joy and why joy can be so hard to feel.

Oh, well, explain that. I think I definitely need help with this one. I think we all do.

So his point there was, again, not super, super original, but I like the way he put it. He was like, a lot of meditation is about going toward discomfort, toward pain, toward whatever is uncomfortable, right, and trying to stay with it without trying to do too much with it. But he said if we're going to be willing to tolerate pain, then we also need to be equally willing to tolerate joy.

But the human mind is ultimately a survival machine, right? So it has this negativity bias. We know this.

And so it's designed really to seek out and fixate on what's wrong, whether it's real or not. It is not designed to appreciate what's great. But what's great is equally valuable and equally precious, even if it doesn't feel like it's like healing you or whatever.

Huh.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Well, that is a big one. I know my mind will always go to the bad thing and dwell on it.

Rarely does my mind go, man, things are so great right now. I'm going to spend 30 minutes thinking about how wonderful everything is. That is not how I operate at all.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So at one point he said something like the mind is oriented around problem solving. So it just misses experiences like joy, because in joy, there's nothing for it to solve.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Quite indeed. And then he was like, it's funny because we spend all this time trying to assemble pleasant experiences like we know how to go after things that we think will make us feel better. But enjoying them is another matter entirely.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, it's super true. Like, all I need is an awesome lunch. That'll turn the day around.

Oh, I can't wait to go to Greece. I'll finally unwind in Greece. Then you're at lunch or you're in Greece and you're like unhappy about your hotel room balcony view or you're thinking about work or what you have to do when you get back to work.

That never totally works for me. I need weeks to unravel, to unwind on vacation. And then if I have too much time, I unravel, I suppose.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Weeks to unravel on the vacation and then weeks to recover and re-ravel. Yeah. A lot of the retreat was just like all of us just basking in the absurdity of how the mind works a lot of the time and just how it keeps moving the goalposts on us constantly.

Yeah. Good metaphor. And then he was like, yeah, so this is tragic, but it is trainable.

But we have to make a home right here in this moment because that's it. That's the only solution to this. Nothing else works.

Jordan Harbinger: So do I have to meditate to be happier? No, thank you. I'm out.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You're out. What else can I tell you about this retreat? Another thing I found refreshing, this guy seemed very aware of the pitfalls of being a teacher, like how you can present as perfect or all knowing.

And he didn't say this, but I kind of, it was in between the lines. Like he was very aware of how participants at retreats can project a lot of things onto you as a teacher, like how teachers are bound to make mistakes or disappoint people. And he said something I love that I made a note to tell you about.

He goes, teachers are like incense. They smell good from a distance, which made me laugh.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I love that one. So important to not idealize these teachers, even the good ones.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I agree. I could tell you many more things, but I'll leave it there. Overall, a really cool experience.

I would definitely do something like this again. Actually, I would have, when I was leaving, I was like, I would have done twice as long if I could have. Because by the time you shake off the energy of wherever you came from and really drop in, the retreat is over.

So a 10 day Vipassana retreat doesn't sound all that crazy. Now, it sounds kind of fun.

Jordan Harbinger: I've got friends who do that, Sam Harris does that, Dan Harris does stuff like this, Olivia Fox Cabane does stuff like this for people who know the charisma myth. But I mean, they all do this stuff. And Yuval Noah Harari, he does like a month minimum every year and he tries to do two or something like that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Is he like a month in silence in his home or is he going somewhere to do this?

Jordan Harbinger: That's a good question. I forgot to ask him that. I can ask him that later.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm actually curious about that myself. That's wild. A month of silence.

But honestly, once I've done it, I mean, I'm sure you're still responding to emails and stuff. So there's, it's not no communication for a lot of people, but the silence actually is more sustainable than you think.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you're right. I wonder if he's just like mostly silent and meditating most of the day or if he's like his phone is gone and his husband's handling their household and his assistant's handling his business. Yeah.

I don't know. That's a really good question. But Yuval's a really busy guy, right?

He's researching. I think he might be teaching. He's traveling all over giving talks.

And so he probably does need a month off and he just chooses to spend it this way, which I would never do. But whatever he needs to do.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe it's not silence.

Jordan Harbinger: He's just so sick of talking. That's actually a really good point as well. He might just be like, I'm over it and I need a break from everybody.

So are you a meditator now? Is that part of your identity? Not a good one.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I can tell you that. Okay. Well, there's no good, Gabe. There's just noticing. Yeah, you're right. There I go again.

Damn. Just forgot. I already forgot.

Stupid Gabe mind. You should know better. I've been doing it twice a day since the retreat.

So there's that for like 10 or 15 minutes at a time. So we'll see. I still find it very difficult, much harder on your own than when you're with 50 other people in this beautiful place.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I bet. And then in that context, you have the social pressure and the shame that keeps you sitting there. And when you're alone, it's like, well, I've sat here long enough. How long was that? A minute and a half. That's fine.

I get hungry. I want to check my email.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You close your eyes and the next thing you know, you're checking the stopwatch. You're like, when did the, how did this happen? It's still meditating when you doomscroll.

Jordan Harbinger: If you do it with presence, I admire it, man. I find it torturous, but there's obviously something to it. If all of these people who are very smart and productive, keep banging on about it.

I'm just, I'm glad you're having these experience so I can get the benefits without having to do any of the suffering. Because as you know, your boy likes to talk.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I definitely think you could handle an Italian silence.

Jordan Harbinger: Maybe Italian silence. I can maybe do. Maybe for a couple of days, then I've got to get a burger and let loose.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You never know till you do it. I was, you remember I was stressing out before the retreat. I was like, I don't know if I'm going to, I'm not thinking about this because there's nothing I can do about it, but I truly do not know if I can get through this.

And then I got there and I was like, Oh, what's so bad about this? Like just be quiet and listen. I mean, it's not easy when you're sitting there for 30 minutes, but yeah, overall.

Jordan Harbinger: Pretty nice. I guess you just have these ideas in your head about what something will be like or what it'll mean. Which I mean, that's probably exactly what the guy was saying about the mind in the first place.

Gabriel Mizrahi: If only there were a practice for that. Like we were saying some sort of training of some kind. No idea what you're talking about.

No clue. Time to move on. Okay.

Quick ad break. And then let's pollute the silence.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Let's do it. Do us a favor and Namaste through this ad break, meditate an Italian silence on the Nirvana that is our deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show.

And we'll be right back. This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session.

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All of the deals are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday.

Okay, Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, my wife of 11 years works remotely in a high-tech sales role, so she travels a lot to customer meetings, trainings, and conferences. For the past four years, I've been a stay-at-home dad to our three elementary school-aged girls. She gets to focus on work while I handle many home and kid responsibilities like making dinners, doing school pickups, shuttling the kids to lessons, rehearsals, and practices, volunteering at their school, etc.

Unfortunately, recently, my wife admitted to having a long-term affair with a guy she first knew from college. My family became close with his family, including his wife and two sons, when they moved back to our city. Their oldest kid is in second grade with my middle.

My three girls loved hanging out with his two boys. We visited regularly, we took our families out on our boat and fished, and we kept a running list of who won the card games we all played together. We vacationed with them and planned another vacation next month.

The guy and I were bros. I golfed with him, and he and I were in a fantasy football league together.

Jordan Harbinger: This is awful. So it just turns out his number one draft pick was your wife? What an a-hole.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude traded integrity and reputation for a side piece. In his circle. Something tells me that this is going to ruin the whole season.

Jordan Harbinger: No, in all seriousness, I am so sorry. I can only imagine how many things you're replaying in your mind right now. I mean, I don't know how people like this look themselves in the mirror, seriously.

Gabriel Mizrahi: During the conversation where she admitted to having the affair, it became clear that she never planned to tell me. The guy got caught by his wife, and she had to tell me, because they thought his wife was going to tell me. She told me several of her work trips weren't really work trips, and she was with him.

I learned that she had been using work travel as cover, and she and this guy had spent the last week in Mexico together when I found out.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, so she was like, I'm going to be at this AI data analytics conference in Redwood City all week, kill me now, and meanwhile she's drinking margaritas with this dude in Puerto Vallarta for potentially years this went on?

Gabriel Mizrahi: It also turns out that my wife wasn't the only woman he was sleeping with besides his wife.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh. Well, I wonder if your wife knew and was cool with it, or if that was news to her because his wife just caught him texting tons of women.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I imagine it would be hard to call him out for that, like, how dare you cheat on me with someone else while we're both cheating on our spouse, who are also friends, like, ugh.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I don't know, it's hard to claim the moral high ground in a situation like that, but I'm sure that, you know, I thought I was special. What a mess.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We had a pretty intense screaming match. I screamed at a volume, consistency, and clarity that I didn't know I had in me, and she didn't say much. It was about 12 minutes of me unloading years of pent-up emotions on her.

I know it was 12 minutes because my Oura Ring thought I was working out. Oh, gosh, that's funny.

Jordan Harbinger: His Oura Ring's like, unknown activity, golfing? No, actually, I'm giving my wife a piece of my mind and punching holes in the drywall. Mmm, 800 calories.

Sounds about right, 100 calories for every year this is going on behind his back. What a night this must have been. Ugh, I hate this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm sorry, I don't want to dwell on this detail, but it's crazy that he's been stuffing down all of these thoughts and feelings for so long, and then he's like, 12 minutes. I gave her 12 minutes of my mind, like, I'm sure he could have done hours. Yeah, no kidding.

Jeez. And also would have definitely hit his step count if he had. So he goes on.

I told her I texted a few lawyers I knew to recommend a divorce attorney who was, quote, a real mother f***er, unquote, and could take the guy's side. She kept saying that I'd, quote, get half of a lot, unquote, at a few points. I told her I could make it easy, but I couldn't make it painless, and said that as a C-suite executive at a major company, she probably had a morality clause, or at least needed to make sure she never expensed anything with this guy on these so-called work trips.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, that is a shot across the bow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I love that for you, but I have more to say on that later. We had a second, quieter conversation later that evening. It was clear that she did not comprehend the layers of shit she had gotten herself into.

And it wouldn't just be me versus her. It was me and this guy's wife, her family, and the guy's family against my wife. They are all completely on my side.

I'll admit that things were not good between my wife and me for some time. Communication had broken down between us. We weren't really getting along.

From my perspective, she had been incredibly difficult. I felt criticized for everything I did, and her criticism was inconsistent. Whenever I felt like I had done enough, she kept moving the goalposts.

Whenever I tried to invite any romantic interaction, she said I hadn't earned it. What did she mean by that? Like, what would earn physical intimacy for this person?

Jordan Harbinger: Well, here's the thing. In a real relationship that's healthy, it could mean a few things. There could be a different dynamic set up, or an unhealthy dynamic set up, or she could have some religious gripe.

In this case, it might not mean anything given that she was secretly carrying on with this other guy. It might have just been a way to get out of sex because she was already getting it elsewhere.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I thought that was due to high levels of stress from her job and other things. She did Ozempic and got an IUD, which I read messes with your sex drive, but nope. She was just screwing someone else and taking all her frustrations out on me.

She told me she had given up on our marriage. I'm so sorry, man.

Jordan Harbinger: That must have been hard to hear, but that's very unequivocal in my opinion. There's something to be said for knowing that so clearly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That said, we were still a good parental team. We're on the same page on virtually every aspect of our girls' learning habits and how we want them to grow up. But they're also vulnerable and struggling emotionally in various ways.

Our oldest is having a bad year because her friends are rejecting her and she wants to switch schools. Our youngest has felt abandoned by the nanny who left a year ago and is still only sleeping with one of us in bed with her. And our middle child has such big emotions.

What would happen if the other woman's son screamed that he hated her mom for ruining his family? I told my wife that I'm worried about our middle going to school next week. Our ordeal would only make all of this worse.

I'm torn about what to do next because being a stay-at-home dad meant I wasn't working and we relied on her income so my options aren't so black and white. I also had a small side hustle doing a weekly news and political talk podcast. It's a great outlet.

We've put out over 80 episodes, grown our audience by 4-5x from our first months. It's not a huge audience but I love doing it. My co-host has become one of my closest friends.

It's a lot of fun and has opened additional doors for me, including joining a larger project creating news and video content for a local online political news publication that has become incredibly successful. Being a stay-at-home dad gave me the flexibility to write and shoot video content regularly. The founder was great.

I'm part of an amazing team there but for everyone but me, this was a side gig. It's really successful and I was being paid but that was only about $17.50 a month, mostly from our founder's own pocket, and it's hardly enough to live on. The problem is, in the event of a divorce, I will need way more than what this gig can give me.

I'll have to find a real job with benefits. I'm not saying that's impossible but four years out of the workforce makes it daunting. And any conventional job would almost certainly mean giving up writing and the podcast, which would pain me tremendously.

Part of me wants to go scorched earth. She broke it and now she has to pay for it. Wisconsin is a 50-50 state and I could fight for half of our assets, which amount to millions of dollars, between the house, her company stock, and her salary.

But I can't pay for a lawyer for all that right now. Part of me wants to negotiate significant monthly spousal support. That way we wouldn't have to fight over the assets.

It would be cleaner. I'd still get something and it would help me adjust to my new reality as a divorced dad who would need to rebuild everything. But my wife is now saying that she doesn't want a divorce.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, color me surprised. She just found out that she was her side piece's side piece. One of many, potentially.

Gabe, I do wonder if in her mind she was like, maybe one day I'll run off with this guy, but now she knows there's a gazillion others. So she's like, oh no, I don't want a divorce. Also, ooh, I'd have to split all my stock.

That sounds expensive. No, thanks. I want to stay together.

I have a pretty good deal right now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I know that for my wife, not getting divorced is less about me and my feelings and more about choosing the least complicated solution. I'll still be on dad duty doing pickups and drop-offs and taking my kids to lessons and she can stay in her home office all day or travel and I can only assume screw other guys. She wouldn't have to worry about a new schedule.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. There's also that she has a really good deal right now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So part of me is considering just being the cucked stay-at-home dad until my girls are old enough to understand why we would be getting divorced. My biggest concern is how they would react and whether this would traumatize them. I'm worried that they blame themselves.

If they're older, maybe they'll be more mature, have better comprehension and have more outside support than they do now at this age. I also know how bad this could look once it gets out that my wife had this affair with another parent at our school, which is probably coming sooner than I want it to. In staying with her, I'm going to look like a schmuck.

The love I had for her is almost certainly gone. I don't know if it's worth the effort to try and rebuild.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, it doesn't sound like it. She told you she gave up on the marriage and she was never going to tell you. It's not like she had a crisis of conscience or something like that.

You're saying you probably don't love her anymore. I obviously understand that. She lied to you for literally years about this.

It doesn't, what are you going to work on here? There's nothing to work on here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The hole I am in right now seems too daunting to climb out of. What are my options? What do I do here?

Signed, torn between sitting back and going on the attack after finding out that my wife jumped in the sack with this guy who had a knack for making me feel like he had my back. Oh, that nickname is hard. That hits.

That's, this is just, this whole letter is brutal to read. Our boy just had a bomb dropped into the middle of his life in a way I can't even imagine. This is, this is very intense.

Jordan Harbinger: It is. Yeah. Obviously any kind of infidelity is painful, but to find out that it was somebody that you were close friends with, someone you did family trips with and you went golfing with who kept up this farce and lied to your face too, and was secretly shagging your wife.

I mean, it's so gross and messy and I'm sure that makes it hurt even more. I'm honestly amazed that he could write a coherent email in the middle of all this. Because it sounds like it just happened.

With that heart rate. Yeah. That's very impressive.

Oura Ring is like, Hey man, slow down. Something's affecting your resting heart rate. Oh, you think?

I always get that one.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oura Ring's like, something's affecting your heart rate. Are you writing into Feedback Friday? Yeah, exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: He's like logging those Feedback Friday calories in his phone. I think anyone would be a mess in this situation. So there aren't enough words to tell you how sorry I am about all this.

Even if your marriage had other problems, problems apart from all this, it still hurts. It's a massive betrayal and my heart goes out to you, man. We wanted to run your story by an expert, especially with all the legal stuff.

So we reached out to Greg Hitt, divorce attorney and mediator practicing in Austin, Texas. Greg also wanted to extend his sympathy. He's very sorry this is happening to you as well.

And Greg was very clear with us. He said, you absolutely need to consult an attorney. He said, you can afford a paid consultation, which usually runs about 500 bucks worth every penny.

Greg's advice, steer clear of free consults, unless free consults are standard in your area. It sort of depends. Steer clear of heavily advertised billboard family law practices, steer clear of national law firms that promote some sort of father's rights type representation.

The whole father's rights moniker in Greg's view, it's kind of a marketing gimmick to get you in the door. I'm not sure if that's the kind of lawyer you were referring to when you talked about a lawyer who would take the guy's side, right? But that's a great pro tip.

Lawyers are going to take their client's side. That's their job. In Greg's experience, what you need is an experienced specialist who practices family law in your county, not somebody who's three states away and has associate lawyers everywhere.

Tell them the facts, explain to them your situation, let them guide you. Also, even if you decide not to divorce for some reason, Greg would still encourage you to see an attorney because your attorney might be able to negotiate a so-called post-nup and that'll protect you when, in his words, the inevitable divorce comes months or years down the road. Now, about going scorched earth, I certainly understand the impulse.

Your wife hurt you really bad. She was cruel and reckless. You're furious.

I get it. I would be, too. But Greg said you don't need to do that, and in his view, it's usually counterproductive.

But insisting on your rights, that's not going scorched earth, and it doesn't mean you have to be nasty or unfair or whatever. You said that you and your wife are a good parenting team. In Greg's view, that's great because that will be your relationship from here on out.

You guys are co-parents, nothing more, really. Also, you guys have organized your lives such that one spouse is the primary breadwinner and one spouse is the primary caregiver for the children. Greg told us that in Texas, that's actually the most important factor in determining primary custody of children, absent severe dysfunction.

You know, if you were an alcoholic, drug addict, whatever, you had severe mental illness that compromised your ability to parent, if stuff like that happens, that changes things. But if you're taking care of the kids all day and she's at work all day, that kind of settles that absent external factor. So in Greg's view, expecting to continue that arrangement is not unreasonable.

Now, Greg is not licensed in Wisconsin. Obviously, his comments are not legal advice, nor are mine or anybody else here on the show. But he did tell us that Wisconsin's family law statutes provide that income earned and assets acquired during a marriage are marital property, while assets that preexisted the marriage are individual property.

Now, this is a generalization. There's always exceptions to these kinds of things. Maybe that'll help you wrap your head around what you might be entitled to here.

But again, there are exceptions and nuances to these rules that you need to discuss with your attorney. And Greg was emphatic on this point. Spousal maintenance, post-divorce support, alimony, basically, that is not a substitute for a division of marital property.

I'm glad he flagged this because I sort of noticed it when you wrote in. You were like, oh, maybe I'll just get alimony. Yeah.

And you should also get a bunch of stock in the house. So these are two different things. So his advice, once again, get thee to an attorney.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And to help guide you there, he had some principles and some tips that I think were really excellent he wanted to share with you. Principle one, your wife's attorney is not your attorney. Do not consult with your wife's attorney because, you know, you want to use one attorney to save money or because it's the path of least resistance, which is common.

Jordan Harbinger: Or she's like, I'll pay for the attorney. We'll just use one. No, cannot stress this enough. We hear it on the show from time to time. Her attorney will not represent your interests. Get your own attorney. Do not make this mistake.

Gabriel Mizrahi: On a related note, do not sign anything, anything presented to you by your wife or her attorney without consulting your attorney. Do not agree to anything, you know, informally before discussing it with an attorney. I know that probably doesn't need to be said, but I'm glad that Greg reminded us.

Another principle he wanted to share, probably do not tell your children why you and your wife would be getting a divorce. His take is leave them out of this. You said your marriage was already on the rocks before all this and his experience. That's what a judge is going to assume anyway. I second this. Your girls are what, between five and 11?

I don't think they need to know that mom was carrying on with their dad's friend and dad felt, you know, neglected and pushed aside and disrespected in the marriage. And that's why dad lives in a studio apartment across town now or whatever. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: More like why is dad driving a Maserati to his five bedroom house across town now, uh, given what this, this spouse has. But look, I'm with Greg on that. That's a for later conversation when the kids are older and like, what do you mean your marriage was on the rocks? What was going on? Well, the triggering event, you know, and then it's like, oh my gosh. But yeah, they don't need to know when they're nine or five or whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: His third idea for you, don't try to use the divorce as a means to show the world who's right or again, to get back at your wife. In Greg's view, it's not going to work and it would jeopardize the co-parenting relationship that you say works well. So Greg had a question for you and it's one that I would definitely encourage you to really sit with and answer once your emotions have settled a little bit more and your Oura Ring calms down.

Do you want vengeance or do you want peace?

Jordan Harbinger: Man, that is the question. It's a hard one to answer in the immediate aftermath of all this short term, obviously he wants vengeance and rightly so, but long term, obviously you want and need peace. The thing is just adding to Greg's perspective here, you don't need to pick vengeance or peace this week.

I would choose clarity this week and for the short term by that, I mean, take this time to work with your lawyer, gather as much information as possible, see how your wife responds to all this. You can decide how aggro or collaborative you want to be after you have a full picture of assets, custody rules, support numbers, your wife's strategy, because if she digs in her heels and tries to screw you on this, and yeah, I wouldn't settle just to get peace. You might have to fight for your due for a little while, but once you get what you are fairly entitled to, then you embrace peace.

Also, while we're on this topic, I would not threaten your wife's career. I love the implied leverage here with the morality clause and the expense reports that might help you get a settlement. If you sort of say like, hey, by the way, you know, your job's not going to like this, that might help you get a settlement. It might help you put the fear of God into her, but I would not seriously consider taking any action on that. You do not want to set fire to the significant income stream that you're about to ask a judge to divide. That would be a hugely expensive own goal.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a really good point. You know, your anger, your desire for justice, your impulse to hit back at her, they are perfectly understandable, and I'm sure that your lawyer will be very keen to fight for what's fair, but in time, I would say keep your eye on the prize, which if I were in your shoes, it would be a harmonious and high-functioning family as much as possible. It's just, you cannot put a price on that.

Greg's other piece of advice for you, do not let inertia make the decision for you when it comes to whether to separate or how or when. Get out ahead of this. Find out what your rights are. If you decide to stay in the marriage, make sure that's an affirmative choice. You are making that decision because you want to and that your rights are being protected.

Jordan Harbinger: He can't just default to staying because it's easier. As Greg put it to us, you do not want to find out a year from now that your wife has been arranging everything secretly to her advantage in preparation for a divorce filing that she is then going to do, because at that point, you are much worse off.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And finally, to quote Greg here, divorce is hard. Getting therapy during the process can be very helpful.

Jordan Harbinger: See guys, it's not just us saying it, it's the professional divorce attorney who's seen this a thousand times.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Thank you for falling on the sword this week, Greg. So I want to talk about your daughters for a quick moment. I know your biggest concern right now is how they're going to react to the news, whether this divorce would traumatize them, all fair concerns.

It also sounds like they were somewhat vulnerable before all of this came to light, given the challenges that you mentioned. If you guys separate, I imagine that one of the hardest parts for them, certainly in the beginning, is just going to be the change that it creates, right? Like changes, of course, to their routines, to their relationships, to their feelings.

So while you take steps to protect yourself, I would obviously also stay very close with your girls, make sure that they are being loved and cared for and listened to, which I'm sure you're going to do, and that they have as much stability and connection as possible from you, because you're the primary caregiver, and that they hear from you that this is not their fault whatsoever. If that is actually how they feel, maybe it won't be. I understand it's a fear of yours, but it doesn't mean it's going to necessarily come to pass.

And maybe you tell them, you know, this is entirely between me and mom. We're finding the best version of our relationship right now. We're still great partners as parents. We're still totally focused on you guys, and in that way, our family will not change. But you're in an interesting dilemma here. On one hand, you don't want to tell a six, seven, eight-year-old, you know, mommy and I are splitting up because she was sleeping with Danny from school's dad. Like, that would be crazy. On the other hand, it sounds like you guys are part of a fairly close-knit community. Your two families are connected. So it's possible that your kids will find out what happened, or at least sense that there's something complicated happening in the background that doesn't totally add up. So do you prepare them for that in advance? Do you wait and see if it comes up and then deal with it? I don't know, man. This is tricky.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that is tricky. If I were in your shoes, I would probably say as little as possible about the affair to your kids. Keep these conversations with them more general. Focus on the kids. Because, like, what if you try to get out ahead of this and you end up telling them way too much and then it turns out to be unnecessary and then you telling them is the thing that actually traumatizes them? That sucks.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Here's the deeper thing in this part of his letter. I get the sense that he's the type of person who likes to game out different scenarios and dodge problems before they can arise, right? Or at least think about them a lot so that he can be prepared if they do happen.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I mean, I get that vibe, too. I'm kind of like that. So, of course, that approach is usually 20 percent actual strategy and 80 percent just grasping at control, doing the what if game.

Part of it is true planning and part of it is just rumination, really. And planning, OK, planning here is finding a lawyer, gathering the bank statements, figuring out housing, calculating income and your wife's stocks or whatever in her blue chip company, all that stuff. Rumination is, oh, what are the other parents going to think? Am I going to look like a cuck? What happens if a kid says something to my daughter in three weeks? How are we going to handle that? Or should I take her out of school? Should we switch schools right now? Should I get ahead of this and give a dossier on the whole thing to the school so they can deal with it?

The first category of thinking is smart and necessary. And the second category is just largely pointless and going to drive you insane. Take it from me. Not that I would not be driving down these same exact dead end streets myself if I were in your shoes, but just voice of experience. I mean, and not with an affair, but like with my business thing, I remember staying up every night being like, what if they do this? Oh, my God, then what am I going to do? Then I'll do that. But then, oh, my God, that's going to be awful. I just did that for weeks. And my wife was like, is that productive for you? And I was like, no, but I can't stop. And that's when it was like, oh, this is like just anxiety. This is terrible. I basically stopped eating. It was really, really bad. So don't do that to yourself. Be aware of this and try to stop doing it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Cut to you and this guy buying a case of olive oil at a silent meditation retreat in 18 months.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Look, you can watch your monkey mind now or you can watch it in Italy where they make you get up at 7 a.m. to sit cross-legged with no music. Your call. I know which one I'm picking.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think you're about to realize that there's a lot in this crisis that you will never completely control from how your wife behaves, to how your kids make sense of this news, to what other kids at school have to say about it, to whatever new responsibilities and situations this whole transition is going to create for you. And by the way, these things that you don't control, they're not all bad. Some of them might actually be good going back to that point from the retreat. You know, like right now you are crashing out and you're looking for everything that could go wrong. I think you're going to find, because it always seems to be the case, that there's bad stuff and there's also good stuff.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, suffering and opportunities for sure. Over a long enough time horizon though, how could it be worse than this?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't think it can. So maybe the best advice we can offer you there is by all means, yes, be strategic, be proactive, be intentional, but maybe one of the hidden upsides of this really devastating chapter is an opportunity to confront the part of you, and this part exists in, well, certainly in Jordan, but I think it exists in all of us, that wants to be able to predict and manage everything that's going to happen. There's a part of that that is genuinely loving and responsible, right? You want to protect your kids, you want to handle this divorce well, great. There's also an aspect of this that is about managing other people's emotions, giving yourself a sense of power, hoping to spare yourself certain difficult feelings. For example, guilt about putting your daughters through this, which you didn't put them through this, but if you decide to divorce, it is going to have some effect on them. Or having to, say, talk to a kid at school or their parents about not gossiping about you guys during lunch or whatever. So maybe part of your process here is going to be noticing that second kind of thinking Jordan was just talking about, the second kind of control, and make some peace with the fact that the dust is going to settle however it's going to settle. Your job, I think, is to be proactive where you can, and then shift your focus to responding as kindly and as wisely as possible to each individual challenge, and trust that you will get through this transition pretty well that way.

Jordan Harbinger: The reality is that he can't stop every bad thing he's imagining from happening, but he can control how he responds to them if they actually arise. But Gabe, I think this control piece is especially interesting in light of the dynamic between him and his wife. It sounds to me like there was a massive power imbalance in their relationship, or maybe more accurate to say, a complicated power structure in which they each developed different forms of power that created interesting challenges, right? She made the money, he took care of the kids, she apparently made him earn her affection, he didn't always communicate with her honestly, or whatever, there's so much to say about all that. But I think one of the big things our boy struggles with in his marriage is the feeling of powerlessness.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And the anger that comes with that powerlessness.

Jordan Harbinger: In addition to the breakdown in communication and the criticism and all their other challenges, that's why his Oura Ring thought he was doing a HIIT workout when he finally unloaded on her, right? He's been stuffing down a lot for a really long time, and all of a sudden he had permission to just let it all out, because, you know, she wasn't going to stop him then. So this whole topic of grasping at control, I think that probably serves several purposes. One of them might be a subtle strategy to reclaim the power he didn't have in his marriage. And so his mind might be going, I didn't have power in my marriage, but at least I can have power in ruminating over all these things that were result from the divorce or in trying to game out all these scenarios, then I'll be prepared. I'll let you decide if that resonates, maybe it does, maybe not. I'm sure it's much more complicated than that too. But I share that because I see a connection between these two parts of your story. I have a feeling that's going to be a big theme for you in all this, agency, your relationship with it, how you tap into it effectively.

Also man, just one piece of semi-gross practical advice, I would get an STI test immediately. Your wife had a longstanding affair with a guy who had at least one other partner that you all know about, and probably a bunch that weren't in the texts, who knows? So Lord only knows what exotic strains of bacteria he's been collecting around whatever the Bay Area or wherever you guys live and delivering to your wife. Maybe you're lucky she wouldn't hook up with you. Maybe she spared, in fact, look, pure speculation. Maybe she didn't want to give you the thing she was taking antibiotics for in the first place and that's why she rejected you. Who knows? Maybe you dodged a bullet too.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Calls for speculation, but it's not, I guess it's not impossible.

Jordan Harbinger: Not impossible. As for your career conundrum, I've got to say, I was chuckling a little when you talked about your stress about getting a real job and not being able to do your podcast. Dude, your wife has serious assets, man. She cheated on you. You're about to get half or something close to it, plus potentially spousal support because she works a crazy lucrative job and you are taking care of the kids and family. Look, this is me talking here. This is not Greg, not your lawyer. You go and you take half of her Adobe stock or whatever, and you good homie, you're retired. Okay? You're still going to have to take care of your kids, obviously, but you don't have to go get a job. You work on your podcast with your bros. You join the rest of us dorks and do it for the love of the game and enjoy it. I doubt you have to set foot in an office ever again. You leave that to your wife who has to rebuild her net worth, and it sounds like she's got a lot of long work days ahead of her to do that. Half that stock, you can sell it. You can take loans against it. You're going to get the spousal. I mean, come on. You don't have to go work some entry-level job because you've been out of the game for four years. LOL, sir. I'm very sorry you're going through this. I'm sorry for all the pain this has caused you and your daughters, but I'm confident you can find a way to move through this together. I'm actually, this is weird. I'm kind of excited for you because you get to start another life free from all the baggage and drama with your ex. For the most part, you're still co-parenting, but I think you're going to get a grip of cash. Take that bag and run, and use the goodwill right now that you have from her screwing up your entire life to get a really delicious settlement. Your attorney will help you with that.

Sending you and your girls a big hug. Your wife, I don't know. I don't really want to give her a hug, especially before you get all of that blood work done, but I suppose I wish her well too because she's obviously struggling with some difficult stuff as well, and I'm not just talking about those expense reports for next quarter. Wishing you all the best. By the way, you can reach us Friday at JordanHarbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your narcissistic parent is compromising your marriage, or your precocious and brilliant child just hacked your phone and you're torn between punishing her and praising her, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at JordanHarbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous.

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All right, back to Feedback Friday. What's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, Recently, my sister-in-law and her husband's house got raided by the FBI, local PD, and CPS.

Jordan Harbinger: Whoa, what is happening this week?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Holy smokes. They had a warrant for his electronic devices and passwords.

Jordan Harbinger: Ew, white collar crime, or I don't know, the CPS angle makes me think it's not white collar crime.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He's now being investigated by the FBI. According to the FBI, a crypto account he had from 2020 to 2023 had been used to make purchases of child sexual material in 2025. Oh. My sister-in-law's husband has the email from when he closed out that account in April of 2023, and the FBI said several times that the crypto was for the purchase, but not a download.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, what does that even mean?

Gabriel Mizrahi: No idea. The purchase, but not a download.

Jordan Harbinger: Like, someone purchased the CSAM, but didn't download it. Who cares if it's not his account? Eh, that's weird. I don't get that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: CPS showed up because they have my niece and nephew in the house. My nephew is an adult, but my niece is still a minor. Both were questioned about my sister-in-law's husband and released. In the process, CPS saw the condition of their house, which was messy, and gave them a week to get things cleaned up. About six days later, local PD came by with an arrest warrant for my sister-in-law and her husband. My nephew called his grandmother, my mother-in-law, and she came and took my niece to stay at her house. My sister-in-law and her husband spent five days in jail before seeing a judge. Both the judge and CPS had no idea why they were brought in. The woman from CPS told the judge that she had given them time to clean up the house and hadn't even started working on their case. The judge also reprimanded the local PD for going to another judge to get the warrant. They then got released, but CPS issued a no-contact order for my niece and a follow-up court date a few weeks out. When that court date came, the local police failed to show up. So my sister-in-law and her husband ended up getting a continuance, but with separate court dates for each of them. CPS called a few members of the family to get character references on my sister-in-law and her husband. CPS had names and birthdates either wrong or mixed up, and had to be corrected on every call. CPS also had no clue on where my niece was, since the case officer didn't take her into foster care, remember she was living at her grandmother's. My wife and I are currently doing everything we can to help, such as picking up our niece from school and relaying messages from my sister-in-law because of the no-contact order. But now her husband isn't being very helpful on his case with the FBI. When they asked him for his passwords, he said no.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, but I would do the same. Refusing to help law enforcement potentially stitch you up for something you didn't do, that does not infer guilt. Any lawyer would be like, don't give him the passwords if you're not compelled to by law. The FBI asking you for your passwords to fish for what you did because they don't have enough evidence to pin it on you yet? No. That is not evidence of guilt. In a way, you could argue it's the opposite.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So they took his two phones, work and personal, and a laptop that my sister-in-law and her husband say no one really used but was in a communal space. As of right now, they have no new updates regarding the local PD, CPS, or the husband's FBI case. We don't want to think he's the type of guy who would do something like what they're accusing him of, but his actions aren't helping his case.

Jordan Harbinger: Based on this letter, I'm not totally convinced of that. I guess I get why he's saying that. What I'm hearing is this guy sold or closed this crypto wallet before the allegedly criminal purchase and he has proof that he sold it or closed it and he isn't volunteering to give law enforcement access to devices for a crime that he didn't commit. I just want to be clear about what we're hearing here. Might not have committed because we don't know. He probably says he didn't commit it, not I might not have committed it, right? Well, we don't know if he did or not. Yeah, I have other thoughts on this that I'll share in a moment.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, I'm very curious. So he wraps up. What could we do to help my sister-in-law and her husband out? And what can we do to help get our niece back home with her parents? Doing right by my niece and trying to figure this out piece by piece now that her parents are tied up with the police.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy, what a mess. CSAM, multiple investigations, weird law enforcement investigation stuff, now custody issues. This is a cluster. So first of all, really sorry this is happening to your family. I'm especially sorry for your niece and nephew. It's got to be just awful for them to watch this happen to their parents, for your niece to be separated from her parents. I don't know how old she is. Obviously it's harder the younger she is, but whether their parents are guilty of any crimes or not, this is just extremely sad. So I've got to say candidly, a lot of the details in this story are very curious and rather confusing, but I think that's actually part of your story. So we wanted to run all this by an expert. So we reached out to Mary Hegarty, an attorney who worked for over 10 years in dependency court in Los Angeles County and has represented parents and children in child welfare cases. And just FYI, Mary's experience is in California. She said other states probably deal with child welfare in different ways, of course. So Mary had a bunch of questions about your story, and I'm glad she did, because so do I. But for one thing, if the warrant and investigation focused on your sister-in-law's husband and it was his devices that were seized, why was she arrested? Is she implicated in this too? Did law enforcement turn up evidence about both of them? That's a bit odd. You also said that your nephew and niece were questioned about their parents and then they were released. To whom? Presumably their mom, who was then admonished by CPS to clean the house?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, but then Mary felt that the messy house was a weird detail as well. In her experience, the house would have to be so bad, like major hoarding or severe insect and rodent infestation or something like that for the social worker to even get into this topic of clean up the house or there's going to be a problem. This could not have been like laundry lying around and dirty dishes in the sink. Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it has to be like, hey, there's cat feces rubbed into the carpet and your kids are not dressed and it's on their clothing and they smell. I mean, that's child welfare stuff. Not like, hey, you didn't make the beds. Mary was also puzzled by the fact that local law enforcement came and arrested the parents and then left their son to call his grandmother, who came and got his sister. In Mary's experience, if kids were home when law enforcement showed up, the cops would have called a social worker to come to the scene and make sure the minor was cared for. Now, maybe that did happen and the social worker allowed the grandmother to have custody of the child. Maybe that happened. Mary reminded us that the law favors placing children with relative caregivers over foster care. If this case ended up in juvenile court, then the judge would be required by law to make orders regarding your niece's placement. And they would have likely followed the recommendation of the social worker, placing your niece with her grandmother. But then when it came to the court date, you said both the judge and CPS had no idea why they were brought in. That was weird to me. And Mary said she doubts this happened. I mean, they ended up in court, right? The case is on the docket and the judge and CPS are like, huh, weird. What are you guys doing here? That's got to be our mistake. That just does not add up at all.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, this was probably a juvenile court hearing, not a criminal one, because CPS would not be a party in the criminal matter. They probably wouldn't be present at an arraignment as far as we know. If this was an initial hearing in juvenile court, often called detention, then the social worker might be present. You also said that the judge reprimanded the local PD for going to another judge to get the warrant. I don't know. Maybe that happened. Maybe it didn't or not quite that way. Again, to Mary's ears, this sounds like nonsense, to use her words. I mean, why was there another judge in their case? What other judge? Was there another matter with these parents before another? Something about this just didn't quite add up for her.

Jordan Harbinger: So many of these details, again, don't make sense, don't add up, whatever, to me either. And then you said CPS issued a no contact order for your niece. Mary explained to us that CPS actually has no authority to issue a restraining order. A judge in either the criminal or juvenile matter could issue a restraining order. Or the judge in the juvenile matter could have just made a court order for the parents not to have any contact, which is the more likely scenario in Mary's experience. She was also curious to know whom the stay away order applies to. Is it dad? Is it dad and mom? If so, why mom as well? And then there's this detail about how your brother-in-law doesn't even know when his next court date is. That is baffling. Surely, they each have an attorney representing them, right? They should be able to tell them when their court dates are. I have to imagine they'd be pretty keen to know when to show up to court and how all of this is going to move forward, unless they are not seeking good counsel and are deliberately burying their heads in the sand, which I guess is possible. But I can't relate to that at all. If I had a case that was going to court, I would know that date. I'd know it better than the back of my hand. Also, Mary said that juvenile courts move faster than criminal courts. So even before the criminal matter is adjudicated, the juvenile court could theoretically make a finding that the dad and possibly the mom possessed the CSAM and order some kind of case plan to rehabilitate the parents. In that case, if they don't complete the court-ordered programs, then the court could permanently remove custody from the parents. Just something to be aware of, that these are two parallel tracks, and these two court systems have different timelines, different sentences and remedies, different implications. And actually, Mary said that this might be part of the confusion here, that there are two parallel proceedings going on, and you maybe are conflating them. So for all these reasons, Mary felt that respectfully, you sound a little confused and maybe a little naive about what's really happening. But she also said that that's understandable, because in her experience, you've probably been told one version, possibly a limited version or even a BS version of what's going on. And look, we assume you're getting your information from your in-laws, and at best, they're probably unreliable narrators right now. Now look, we obviously can't know for sure what your brother-in-law did or didn't do, knew or didn't know. Maybe he's totally innocent, and this is a horrible mix-up. He sold his crypto, somebody used Ethereum that was in an account that he lost control of to buy CSAM, and it traced back to him. Look, I want to say that that's very unlikely, based on how the blockchain works. I suppose it's theoretically possible, given, you know, a failure of several different things. Or this guy really did buy the CSAM with his crypto, and he's guilty. Mary's take was, naturally, you don't want to believe that a relative is capable of this type of behavior. Based on her experience with CSAM clients, sadly, she said, this guy is behaving a lot like somebody who is guilty. Now, I'm not totally sure I agree with that, because we have all these confusing details. As I said earlier, I think these facts are just highly ambiguous. But I also don't have Mary's experience. Maybe she's seen this kind of thing a hundred times and knows how these cases tend to go. But I do think that's an interesting perspective.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So Mary's very direct advice about how to help your niece, everyone involved has to play ball. To quote her here, the bottom line for any parent who is brought into juvenile court is that the way to get the child back in their custody is to follow the orders of the court. Full stop.

Jordan Harbinger: Love that. Love the advice. Love the full stop. Was that deliberate? Thanks, Mary.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think it was. That's the long and the short of it, she said. And look, your niece's age, like Jordan mentioned, is obviously very relevant here. If she's 17, this is a much less fraught situation. Her parents can just wait it out. But if she's, you know, like 8, 10, 12 years old, then they're going to have to follow this reunification plan, whatever it is, scrupulously, if they want to be reunited with their daughter. That of course is putting aside the question of whether she should be reunited with her parents given what they might have done, but that's another question. And about having a better grasp of the case, Mary said that you might be able to go to the court and get the minute orders for the various hearings so that you and your whole family can see what the court orders actually are. But because you're not a party to the case, Mary said it's possible that you might not be entitled to access them.

Jordan Harbinger: You know what? You could drive your sister-in-law or her husband to the court to get the minute orders. They should be able to request them. And Gabriel, this would be such a tell now that I think about it. Yes. Like, yeah, I'd love for you to read the court orders because it's just such a mess and you can see how we're being railroaded. And if they're like, oh, our lawyer says that we can't because they haven't been created because this whole thing's a mix-up and they're just going to throw the case out so they don't exist. And that's like, uh-huh.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, we'll go. We'll go and we'll send it later to you. That would be interesting.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. There's a tell here because I know if I'm accused of a crime and I'm innocent, I'm posting the flippin' minute orders in my family group chat. Look.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. That's going straight to Facebook. Absolutely.

Jordan Harbinger: Maybe not. Hey, I've been falsely accused of child sexual abuse material. Can you guys believe it? But no, I would want everybody who knows about this to know that this is a cluster and look at this mess and these documents and how angry the judge is and the transcript says, why are these people? They shouldn't even be here. Like I want that on the record that everybody can see. So there's no doubt that I'm being railroaded. But if I did it and I'm lying to everybody, then I'm going to make up a bunch of excuses as to why I can't get these minute orders.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Absolutely. And if I could just run with that for a second, I got a little dark gay pitch. A few days before you go drive them down to the court to get the minute orders, buy your sister-in-law's husband an Oura Ring as a gift and then measure his heart rate when you invite him to go get the minute orders.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. The problem is they don't allow Oura Rings in prison. So it's going to sit in the box for a while after that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Rose, not in prison, right? He's out.

Jordan Harbinger: Not yet.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Not yet. But if they just, if he just freaks out when they go to look at what the judge actually said, I think that might be interesting data. Another option though, if your niece has an attorney herself or a guardian ad litem in her case, you could try to contact that person or the social worker and say to them basically, hi, I'm so-and-so. I want to make sure I'm up to speed on this case. Can you tell me what's going on to the extent that you can? What does my sister-in-law need to be doing right now? What's the probable timeline here? Is there anything you can share with me to give me more insight on this case? Anything you can do to help? We'd really appreciate it kind of thing. And of course your in-laws should have both have the best possible representation right now. I say that knowing again, we might be talking about somebody who bought CSAM, but this is just blanket advice and it's directly related to Q1. You do not want to navigate this system with bad representation or no representation. That is a recipe for disaster.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Interesting theme on today's episode and your in-laws probably need to be a lot more proactive about staying on top of their case.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Beyond the legal stuff, you're already helping care for your niece. I would also hope that you and your wife are giving her a lot of love and as much stability as you can during what I assume is a very tough and a very confusing time. Keep doing that. Invite her to talk as much as she wants. Lean on you guys as much as she needs while this weird process unfolds. And that's about all you can do, unfortunately, which means that you and your wife mostly kind of have to sit back and allow this thing to take its course. And yeah, just sit with the sadness and the confusion and I can only imagine discomfort and frustration. You know, it sounds a lot like my silent meditation retreat. All of these terrible feelings that come with something like this. This sounds like a strange and potentially troubling case. You and we do not have enough information to know for sure what your brother-in-law did or didn't do. But maybe that's besides the point. Right now the point is two children, one of them a minor, are probably being affected profoundly by this event and you and your family's job is to look for ways to support them however you can and just love them and be of service to your family. And yes, appropriately support their parents as well.

Jordan Harbinger: While also pushing for as much information as possible so you can be truly informed and being a tad more ambitious and discerning about the facts in this case. Very sorry you guys are going through this. Wishing you, your wife, your niece and nephew all the best and good luck. Big thanks to Mary Hegarty for her insight and experience here as well.

All right Gabe, you know what's a better use of your money than shopping the dark web? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Take a moment, support our amazing sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Any problems with any codes? Can't find a code? Something not working? Email us jordan@jordanharbinger.com. Someone here will dig up that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lip filler. My recommendation of the week is an app, online app called TurboScribe. TurboScribe is really, it's super simple, really easy way to get an accurate high quality transcription from an audio or video file. So let's say you got a YouTube link and you're like, Oh, I need the transcript for my class or I want to grab something and use it for another project. This is actually a hundred percent free for up to three files per day, up to 30 minutes per file, no credit card required. And they say they never train AI on your transcripts, although, you know, everything in the world's already in there anyway, who cares in my opinion, but if it's something personal, they're not going to upload it to AI and have it save. They love and they welcome the free users. They're not going to bug you constantly to upgrade. Their paid plans are also affordable. I'm a paid user. It starts at 10 bucks a month and all of the paid plans include unlimited transcription. So it's something you can use. If you have a podcast and you want transcripts and you're paying a really expensive piece of software that does a million other things to transcribe, you might be paying per episode what you would pay per month with TurboScribe paid edition. And you might even be able to get away with using it for free, depending on how long your stuff is. You can find this at TurboScribe.ai. We'll link to that in the show notes. It's run by a single dude. It's just a really easy and useful tool. TurboScribe.ai. All right. What's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, a while back you shared some words from a family who had just lost their father, who was a devoted show fan. They shared some details about his life with you guys and you were both touched.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Pete Dinella. What a sweet guy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Pete Dinella. Nice to remember Pete. Shout out to Pete and his family, who I hope still listen.

Jordan Harbinger: I have a little weird feeling I'm going to get a little emotional in a second here. It's a good thing I don't meditate. I'd actually have to sit with those feelings. No, thank you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You'll cry about this letter in three weeks. Well, here I am in a similar situation. My 92 year old mom has been ill for a few months and yesterday she shared with me that she had made the decision to not fight any longer.

Jordan Harbinger: Dang. Why do you guys do this to me?

Gabriel Mizrahi: While no one knows how long she'll last in her new state of mind, we have that clock running out feeling.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, so sorry, friend. That is intense.

Gabriel Mizrahi: A few years ago, I was driving my mom somewhere. I hadn't figured out how to play GPS without playing a podcast at the same time, so naturally we listened to a Feedback Friday episode, punctuated by the sound of Turn Left at the light.

Jordan Harbinger: Uh, yes. The way the show is meant to be enjoyed. With a voice assistant constantly saying Accident Ahead, Traffic Ahead.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Accident Ahead would actually be a highly relevant soundtrack for Feedback Friday.

Jordan Harbinger: That is definitely for Q1s, and in this case, Q1s and Q2s, that's for sure.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We should sample that for the soundbites and use it.

Jordan Harbinger: Going to get sued by Alphabet, but yeah, I'll get on that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: When it's like not as stressful of a story, it's Traffic Ahead. And then every so often it'll be like, is the cop still there? Does Google Maps ever ask you that?

Jordan Harbinger: No, is that a thing?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, like if they tell you if there's a cop, like a speed trap, and then it'll pop up on your GPS and you can say if it's still there, and that's how they gather the data.

Jordan Harbinger: I did not know that. No, I guess I don't use that feature.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So she goes on. My mom became a show fan, and we often like to talk about episodes or listen to them together. Fast forward, and she's formed the habit of listening to podcasts as she sleeps. The past couple of nights she wanted an all Jordan Harbinger show feed. She was very patient while I fiddled with her phone to cue a bunch of your episodes. My mom is spending the time she has left in the nursing wing of her retirement community, getting daily messages from a wide variety of people in her life. I'm able to visit her every day after work, and the family members she loves the most are flying in for the weekend. No one wants to say goodbye, but she's doing it right.

Jordan Harbinger: Sure is. Lucky lady.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But then, plot twist, possibly spurred by a surprise visit from close family, my mom rallied in the last few days. She's gone from seemingly preparing for an imminent exit and unable to sit up in bed without help to a renewed interest in some projects she had going on before getting sick and planning and thinking about what her life will look like with some limitations she didn't have before. She looks like a whole new person. The change has been sudden, dramatic, and altogether welcome.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Yeah, that's amazing. I don't want to take all the credit, but I will take at least half the credit.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Come to think of it, her turn for the better occurred after two solid nights of listening to your show.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm glad we're on the same page. You're welcome. Put me in the will.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My mom now spends most of the day thinking about stuff that she wants to get done.

Jordan Harbinger: Like the will that I'm going to be in? Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right. Only you, not Gabe.

Jordan Harbinger: No.

Gabriel Mizrahi: A fair bit of which relies on my help.

Jordan Harbinger: So that's H-A-R-B-I-N-G-E-R, and I'll send you a mailing address for the disbursement check. ACH is fine, too.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Use Wise, please. Just for the fees. It must be incredibly frustrating for someone who has been so independent to have to scale back her expectations so far. We're keeping a shared checklist, and I can knock off a few items each weekend, but I need to make sure I'm also taking care of myself. She has an amazing community, tons of support, but some stuff just needs to be done by me. So now there's worry, happiness, being on edge, this responsibility, and some anticipatory grief. A lot rattling around.

Jordan Harbinger: I bet. What was that phrase you taught me the other week? The full tumbleweed something?

Gabriel Mizrahi: The full tombola.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's what she's going through. The full tombola.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dr. Margolis is listening to this episode cracking up in her car right now. Yeah, this is the definition of the full tombola. She is in touch with everything. So she wraps up. How can I best support my mom in this new phase? Any advice for navigating the complex emotions that come with such extreme uncertainty?

Signed, celebrating this longer lifespan, but struggling to come up with a game plan after my mom's miraculous turnaround.

Jordan Harbinger: That doesn't rhyme, but I'll allow it. What a letter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was hoping you would seize on that fact. I was like, is he going to notice that game plan and turnaround? That doesn't rhyme.

Jordan Harbinger: No, I'm going to notice. Of course I'm going to notice that. I'm not the only one who noticed that. A hundred thousand people just went, huh?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Every writer has his lesser works. They're not all bangers. Facts. Okay. Yeah, I had to do it. Anyway. Criticism aside, this letter is very touching.

Jordan Harbinger: And dramatic. I was like, oh no, I see where this is heading. Then she had this miraculous turnaround because of me. That's got to be quite a rollercoaster for both of them, actually.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Life is wild, man. One day you're like, okay, I've got to start saying goodbye to my mom, I guess. And then queue up a few deuce cruises and the next day you're like, okay, let's tackle the garage together. Let's do this.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Yeah. Mom wants a squirrel box in the backyard. Exactly. Which future are we planning for here? My crushing grief or my overwhelming joy that I get more time with my mom?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Funny how that idea keeps showing up on today's episode. I didn't plan that.

Jordan Harbinger: I suppose it's always both. Right? So how do you support your mom in this new phase?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Big question.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. And also an ambiguous question.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Because like, what is this new phase? It's hard to say.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Confusing.

Jordan Harbinger: Like she said, a ton of uncertainty. Maybe your mom's tapped into some new life energy and she sticks around for many more months, hopefully as long as possible, of course. Or maybe she's found a second wind, which is awesome, but it's a temporary phase.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or she's going to move between the two a few times. It's kind of impossible to know with these things. Such a mystery.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. So what does your mom really need right now? You know, I would follow that. Obviously she needs help with certain practical things and a lot of those things are in your interest too. Projects you guys want to finish while she's around. Administrative stuff you guys need to take care of. Estate planning. I generally prefer cash, but I'll take property in a pinch. Organizing friend and family visits. All that stuff. On that note, I would say definitely support your mom in making the most responsible decisions about her affairs now while she's around and sound. Making sure those beneficiary forms for her pension or investment accounts are complete and up to date. Make sure her will and trust are airtight, for real. Make sure they don't include ex-husbands or have a misspelled name on them and they've been updated since your youngest siblings were born. All that jazz. Anyone your mom wants to talk to or spend time with, obviously that's something you could help her with. You know, if she's got friends or there's family that would normally have flown in, but it was too late. Now is the time. Getting around to any appointments. Taking care of herself. You're probably on top of that part. But you're probably asking more like, what does she need emotionally? And I imagine it's a few things. Tenderness, togetherness, intimacy, time and connection with you, with the people she loves, which again, it sounds like you're already giving her probably a sense of being cared for and being listened to. Maybe your mom wants to talk about what it's like to be her age in this stage of life and everything it brings up. Maybe she wants to tell stories, relive old memories. I'm sure listening to her would mean a lot to her. I know it'll also create some great memories for you after she's gone and make you feel like you spent your time with her wisely. I mean, that's ultimately all there is, right? Just you and the other person talking or not talking, just being with each other.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It sounds to me like your mom is meeting this huge transition pretty well, with a lot of clarity, a lot of conviction. There's sadness here, but that's great, you know, that she's getting to choose how she wants to go. But anybody who's approaching death must be in touch with so many things, fear and anxiety and sadness and worry. But also, who knows, maybe like relief, maybe even curiosity. Everybody is different. So if your mom seems to want to talk about that stuff with you, I know not everybody wants to, but if she does, then I think listening and being in those feelings with her, that would be a really great gift as well.

Jordan Harbinger: And look, if you're ever unsure about what she needs, you could literally say, hey mom, what's on your mind? Do you need anything? How can I support you? And see what she says. Maybe she knows and she'll tell you, or maybe she doesn't, but you can help her find it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. That's an act of love too, right? Just asking that question. Your second question is kind of one of my favorites. How do we navigate the complex emotions that come with such extreme uncertainty?

Jordan Harbinger: That is the question, yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So not to be that guy who just came off of a silent meditation retreat, but to absolutely be that guy who just came off of a silent meditation retreat.

Jordan Harbinger: Ol' Gabey namaste's over here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I like your word, navigate, as opposed to manage or cope with or, I don't know, get rid of. A big part of your job right now, it seems to me, is to just let those feelings be. I mean, they're happening. They're appropriate. You're saying goodbye to a parent. It's a very big loss. And the fact is, there is not a ton to be done with these feelings, except, of course, feel them and let them remind you how much your mom really matters to you.

Jordan Harbinger: I agree with that, despite my roasting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Navigating them could also mean asking yourself, okay, what would be the best use of this feeling? Like how can I direct it in a way that would make this time with my mom even more valuable? So if you're feeling, let's just say, super sad one day that you don't know how much longer your mom is going to be here, you could use that feeling to really make the most of your interactions with her, to really be present when you're with her, to extend your trip home and spend extra time with her. Or if you're feeling another day, let's just say, angry, also a big part of grief, maybe you channel that anger into making plans with your mom or being more ambitious about the projects you want to tackle with her, asking yourself how you want to spend your own life based on what you're learning by watching your mom go through this. Same with anxiety, same with fear, same with anticipatory regret. These are all very meaningful responses to the massive question mark that you and your mom are facing. But ultimately, the only thing we can really do with uncertainty is just remember to enjoy. Make good use of whatever you have right now and enjoy what else is there.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, so true.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I totally sound like a guy who just bought a case of Benedictine olive oil, I realize.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hopped up on pure awareness, bro. But all we have is now, that is it, now. What else is there? So how are you going to use this now or the string of nows, however long it lasts with your mom? That's the question.

Jordan Harbinger: It's blunt. For sure, though, it's something I think about with my parents, too, especially my mom, obviously. We all know where this is going. We all are heading for the same place. It's freaking terrifying. But then I go, all right, you can't change the facts. You can't know what you can't know. So how are you going to spend today? How are you going to spend the next hour, the next five minutes? That's it. I don't always manage to do this well, but I'm trying and it's just so easy to forget. But listen, if you ever have days where you just don't know what to do for your mom or how to deal with these feelings, I think a helpful question is, if mom died sooner than I expected, what would I wish I'd done? And then you have your next step. Go do that thing. But then there's the equally important inverse, which is, if she lives another two years, what will I regret having sacrificed because I treated every single second like it was her last? You can't neglect your health and your relationships and your career because you're in constant anxiety that she could go any minute. You don't want to lose yourself entirely in this process. You also have to have a reasonable balance with your own needs.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which will also help you make the most of your time with your mom. So very important.

Jordan Harbinger: Both your futures deserve consideration here. So no pat answers to these big questions. More like approaches and a general awareness.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, who's drinking the olive oil now? Awareness.

Jordan Harbinger: I knew you were going to catch on that. But what can I say? Your silent meditation vibes rubbed off on me today. Bit easier to embrace with these big existential questions. Very sorry you're having to say goodbye to your mom. I can only imagine how intense that must be. I am not looking forward to going through that same process. Maybe soon myself. But you seem to be doing an amazing job, all things considered. And you're asking all the right questions. So thank you for writing in. Big thanks to your mom for being part of our show family. Love that she joined the Dews crews and glad our voices can put her to sleep at night. Again, you are welcome for keeping her alive. We are sending you both a huge hug and wishing you lots of great moments together and many more episodes of this very show.

Don't forget the episodes with Jeff Schoep, former neo-Nazi leader here in the United States for 25 years, and the episode on travel health with Andrew Herr, founder of FlyKitt. Have a listen to those if you haven't done so yet. Go call your mom if you haven't done that yet. Shout out to our listener for that important reminder. Literally go do it right now. Well, not right now because I'm about to plug my networking course and remind you to support our sponsors. But in about 30 seconds, call your mom and then thank me later.

The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. Six Minute Networking is free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. It's on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. The drills take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. sixminutenetworking.com is where you can find it.

Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram, Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Greg Hitt and Mary Hegarty. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with someone else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. Okay, now go call mom during these cheesy and potentially irrelevant post-roll ads.