197: How to Stop Fearing Entrepreneurial Risks | Feedback Friday

Transcript for How to Stop Fearing Entrepreneurial Risks | Feedback Friday (Episode 197)

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. I'm here with producer Jason DeFillippo. Here on The Jordan Harbinger Show, we love having conversations with our fascinating guests. And this week we had Leon Logothetis who's making his way around the world without any money and relying only on the kindness of strangers. And Moby was on the show talking about his meteoric rise to the top of the music industry just when he thought his career had basically come to an end. That was one of my favorite interviews recently, and not because I'm a huge Moby music fan really, I mean I am/was, but really his honesty was, was crazy. He really didn't try to make himself look good in the book and was very candid on the interview. Jason, he was just kind of like, "Yeah, try taking like a lonely only child with an anxiety disorder. Give them a ton of money and a ton of fame, like a perverse social experiment. And then just watch everything go wrong." And he's like, "That's my life." And I just thought, "Wow!"

Jason DeFillippo: [00:00:54] What could possibly go wrong?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:55] Yeah. And he had great observations. You know, one of the clips we took that I think we threw onto YouTube was him saying he's sitting there at dinner with like the Dalai Lama and Elon Musk and Bill Clinton and he's like, "Crap, I'm still myself. I still have anxiety and feel like crap and don't like myself." And it was just like, wow. Because I think for a lot of us if we're really candid with ourselves, we harbored that secret fantasy too though. If we just had these certain accouterments or trappings, we would be, we would be better off. And for most of us, it's money. Like, "Oh if I had as much money as so-and-so, and he got this lucky break, you know, I would live in this awesome spot and I wouldn't even worry about any of this stuff," but it's easy to just think that that's going to be you when then you're just going, "Crap, all my problems are still the same. I just have nicer clothes."

Jason DeFillippo: [00:01:51] Yup, that's true. You know, wherever you go, there you are.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:54] That's exactly what I wanted to name the clip. And Jen was like, "That's not catchy enough." So that's not the name of the clip.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:02:00] Okay.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:01] Anyway, I also write every so often on the blog. The latest post is how to find a mentor and make the most of the relationship. Now I know what you're thinking you all can mentor is a buzzword. That's exactly why I wrote it. So many people are asking me about mentors and mentorship these days. So I wanted to get some quality information out there in a sea of just BS, crafted by people selling Master Minds and other empty promises about making money or finding mentors or blah, blah, blah. It's kind of a buzzword that people are using to market now. So I wanted to pop that bubble and also show you how to get real mentorship from people around you. So make sure you've had a look at that article. It's at jordanharbinger.com/articles and of course, listen to the shows from this week and let me know what you think.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:41] Our primary mission is always to pass along insight to you. And on Friday we take your questions and answer them directly instead of going through the intermediary of an interviewee or guest and you can reach us at friday@jordanharbinger.com. Try to keep them concise if you can. I mean you don't have to make them two lines, but sometimes we open up a three page and I'm like just put a star next to that and come back to it in five years when we have an intern. So concise, good, long. Not as good, not bad, just not as good.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:10] I was at a bachelor party in Vegas this weekend with old friends from my old law firm and it's funny to see where everyone is, but during the party, the best man actually he had to leave suddenly and fly home because his nine-year-old daughter's friend had passed away suddenly because of a brain aneurysm. And so the weekend was -- this was at the end of the weekend -- so the weekend was this is really sort of interesting, maybe a little bit too whole reminder of how friends and relationships are really what does matter in our lives and how we need to make the best of the time we have here and the people we have it with. And it made for an interesting night, Jason, because it was like we're all having fun broing out. Like, "Oh it's so good to see these old friends." "Oh, it's so good to meet all these new best friends of my friend and his brother-in-law or future brother-in-law." Like just really cool people and then you have this crazy experience happened to one of the guys' kids' friends, but you know, to a child and you just go, "Okay." So not only is this a good time, but we should treasure it probably even more than we are. It was just a really interesting realization that hit us all kind of hard, especially the guys with kids.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:04:21] Yeah. That's a tough reminder, especially with kids.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:24] Yeah. Like the guy, it hit us all hard. You know, because we're at a freaking table at a club, you know, like basically and or like a cabana type situation. And then it was like, "Oh," and just seeing this, our friend who went to go see his daughter and wanting to fly home immediately so that he was there when she woke up. It was tough. And then the guys who had had kids were really upset because I think at some point when you have kids, and I'll confirm this in a few months, you feel a little bit more empathetic. Like, "Oh my gosh, those poor parents." Well, of course, I was thinking that, but I don't feel it because I don't have any kids yet. So anyway, right now I would say right now grab your phone, text someone who you haven't seen or spoken to in a couple of months or even a couple of years and just let them know that they popped into your head and you thought you'd say hello. And this is one of the first drills in Six-Minute Networking, which is our free course online and I think we should all just go ahead and do this one right now and tighten that bond a little. Because for a few of us, it might actually be our last chance. Statistically, if everyone who's listening to this show right now does this, so there's going to be a handful of people who that's the last time they ever get to talk to that person, so just think about that. All right. On that cheery note, let's dive into the show. We've got some doozies, as usual, Jason.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:05:39] Yes, we do. Hi guys. My wife and I have been together as a couple for eight years and married for three and a half. I recently found out that she cheated on me with a former work colleague. The two of them used to flirt before we were married. They went out for drinks together a few times, which she never told me about and they only found out by accident. Over the past year, my wife and I had issues communicating and we became distant from each other. Our sex life suffered a lot because neither of us knew how to talk about it. In February, as you traveled to see this guy under the pretext of visiting a friend of ours in the same city. She did see the friend, but she spent much of the time with the other man. She tells me her friend didn't approve of what she was doing, but maybe she only said that to make me feel better somehow. I got suspicious, after she returned, in her behavior and mood change. I finally challenged her about what happened and she admitted she cheated. She told me it was a mistake that she regrets, but I've heard that line before. She told me she stopped talking to him, but I know that isn't true. The reason I know this and other details is that I found them in her calendar. After I became suspicious of Facebook messaging, she was hiding from me. I think the thrill of cheating turned her on. She's gotten into reading erotica books that revolve around adultery. I get the impression that she wants to live a life from one of these books and not reality.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:06:58] I'm open to try things or role-playing, just not with other people. She tells me she loves me and I think in a way she does, but she clearly doesn't respect me and I don't know if she's in love with me anymore. I think she wants the love, support and stability of our relationship with a fun, casual sex on the side. I've heard of fixing the damage of cheating by thinking of starting a new relationship with your spouse. While she is receptive to that, I fear she just wants me to become the quiet schmuck husband while she continues sleeping with other men. If we can save the relationship we once had, I'll do anything to do so. I am pushing to go to couples counseling but money is tight and honestly, I don't know how to look for a therapist. I did just look up Better Help and we'll see if that can work. Finally, part of the problem for me is I suddenly feel completely alone and isolated. I have very few friends and have only talked to one of them about this. She said she was in my corner for whatever support I need. The more I think about everything, the more I think my life is over and, of course, that my wife will go on just fine without me. I worried that in desperation I will cling to a marriage that should just end. I want to know how to handle this and how I can think clearly enough about it to make good decisions. Sincerely, To F Up to Think of a Funny Name.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:11] First things first, you definitely need therapy and there are too many variables here to really attack all of them in one quick answer here. You can start by going to a therapist locally or use Better Help, betterhelp.com/jordan we have a discount there. That's a company that's really easy and affordable. I know you said that money's tight and always the logistics of getting to a therapist's office are a pain, so betterhelp.com/jordan will help you do it like essentially on your phone/online. Now, look, you've thought about this a lot, clearly, about what happened, about her intentions. I'm inclined to think that you're right, and it sounds like your marriage was a little bit influx or unstable before, and then with the travel, which by the way, I'm guessing was mostly her idea. It sounds like she has become or was and always has been potentially an escapist because people who chase things like the feeling they get from cheating or the feeling they get from going out and finding someone new and they don't want to work a regular job, they just want to travel around. That's there's something that they're running from, usually some kind of pain, right? So there's nothing wrong with a little escapism as a hobby, but this is not good when you shift your entire life to that and then you can't adjust to reality again.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:24] The other issue here is that this wasn't some random one-off where someone drank too much and made out with somebody and "Oh, oops, it was there." That's bad because there's something else wrong here. But this was a planned tryst and had roots that were planted probably before you were even married consciously or not. You know, the other guy was conscious and she's not dumb, so I have a hard time believing that this just happened. She wasn't there to visit her friend. She planned this whole thing. I won't speculate whether this was the first time she's been with this guy or anything, but it really doesn't even matter anyway. This was not an impulsive decision. It was a plan that could easily repeat itself except she won't get caught next time or the next few times or whatever. So if you're getting the feeling that she's just trying to make peace with you so that you'll turn a blind eye, then you're probably right. I'm going to give you that one because most people rationalize things the other way and people who are remorseful about this sort of thing take big steps to rectify the situation, including coming clean about everything. If she was really like, "Oh no, I can't believe it, I got to fix all this." You'd say, "Okay, show me your Facebook messages or whatever." And she'd be like, "All right, here's everything." And you'd talk everything out. But that's not what happened here instead, she got caught and now she's hiding the details from you. You can't see her Facebook messages. I mean, what's in there? A bunch of truth. That's what's in there. And if she's doing that, there's more to the story.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:54] So I would not only get a therapist in this situation. I'd get a lawyer. I would do so quietly at first and I would grab as much evidence as you can of her infidelity. So talk to your attorney, find out what you're able to do legally because it's going to depend on state to state, whatever. And then with your lawyers, blessing, grab all of the Facebook messages, texts, calendar entries, et cetera. And again, only if legal record some of the conversations with her and maybe with a friend that was covering for her on the phone. Record those conversations with her about what happened and this way, if you do end up getting divorced, you may have some different rights to things like property since she was unfaithful. Because what you don't want to do is be like, "You know, I'm getting a divorce," and she's like, "Hey, I never cheated. I never did anything. You don't have any proof." And you're like, "Well you admitted it and you talked about it and your friend said," and then it's like, "Okay, well, are you going to get her friend into court and testify on this?" "That's not happening." "Okay, so now it's your word against hers." So if you gather a bunch of stuff, you might never need to use it. But if she suddenly starts saying, "You know what, I'm going to rake you over the coals," because you live in California or whatever. Then you can say, "Okay, I have all of your messages and I'm going to prove that you're lying about all of this. Or we can settle reasonably and we can go our separate ways." Trust me. One on one hand of cards is much better to have than the other, but you've got to make sure that you collect it legally." What you don't want is for her to sue you for eavesdropping or wiretapping or invasion of privacy or something like that and then call the prosecutor because you were hacking on her computer. You don't want to deal with that. You want to make sure you're getting stuff as legit as you can or at least stay firmly in the gray area and white space and not cross the line. As always, I'm a lawyer but I am not your lawyer on this one. Then this stuff always changes from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, so make sure whoever you talk to knows what they're talking about in your particular area.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:42] So I'm really sorry to hear this has happened to you, but in the end, pulling the trigger on this relationship, cutting off this kind of relationship that hurts now, but it's going to save you a lot more time, money and heartache and headache in the future. Let me tell you that. Building a life with somebody who's doing this is worse than just getting out of one early enough. I know it's not super early, but trust me, you're going to be really glad you did this now, in about two years, something tells me this was not a one-off. You can give it everything else you've told me it's likely to happen again as long as you put up with it via your own inaction or otherwise. So be strong and step up on this one, man. We got your back, brother.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:13:16] Dear Jordan, Jason and Jen. I hope this finds you all well, particularly Jen. Congratulations on the baby. Recently I inherited quite a bit of money, about $600,000 now and half of an industrial building that's assessed at one million dollars, which could be sold and split with my sister in the future. My wife and I have minimal debt, about $130,000 in mortgage and $15,000 in a car loan. My wife's job is very stable and she's been with the company for 13 years and she loves her job. I've worked at my job for two years, but my job is processing work and there isn't any upward movement. With this inheritance, I'd like to step away from the workforce for two to three years and direct my focus on my health and kids. My kids are two and seven. My two-year-old would stay in daycare, but we could cut the before and after school care for my oldest since he'd be home. I'm 36 years old, five-foot 10 and weigh 380 pounds and I'm also on two high blood pressure meds and I have a family history of diabetes, sleep apnea, and kidney disease. I see my oldest son starting to head down the same path I had at his age with eating habits and minimal exercise. Paying off our debts would offset half of my income and the inheritance would be more than enough to supplement our lost income for two to three years of not working. I'd like to join a gym and spend two to three hours a day working out and the rest of my time doing all our other household chores and cooking healthier meals. We wouldn't have to cram chores and errands into our nights and weekends. This would free up more weekend time and do more family activities, promote a healthier lifestyle and save my wife's paid time off to take a vacation. I even sat down with my doctor to go over our schedule and she can't find more than 15 minutes of time in my day to get exercise and she recommends I get 90 minutes.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:15:00] When I presented my thoughts about this to my wife, she was not on board and cited the loss of income and fringe benefits. My job provides, which is mostly $5,000 withheld pre tax for daycare flex spending. Her work doesn't provide flex spending in my retort is that there are plenty of funds in the inheritance to cover the cost regardless. She also decided that she would like to save as much of the inheritance to use for our own retirement and I agree. I'm not proposing this to be a permanent arrangement. I think she is secretly jealous of me being the one to do this and not her. However, I'm the one who struggled with weight my entire life and she doesn't have weight issues. I think I haven't been considered for jobs and promotions in the past due to my weight. I understand my wife's concerns, but I don't think she understands the long-term benefits of making this decision to get my health back on track. I want to be the example my kids can look up to. Short term, if I did this and it doesn't work how I'm planning, I could start a job search sooner than expected. Long term, my concern would be how to go about re-entering the workforce in a few years. I know moms do this all the time once their kids become school-aged, but I live in an area in West Des Moines, Iowa that has a lot of young professionals. I'd be competing with 25 to 30-year-olds that wouldn't demand the same salary as me as they would be early in their careers versus a 40-year-old guy who hasn't worked for a few years. Most employers would look right past me. Please help me weigh my options. Thanks for your advice and input. Signed, Possible Future Stay-at-Home Dad.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:35] There's a lot to consider here, but I think that they're all actually trumped by one major overarching issue here, which is your health. Your health is the one thing that's going to be more and more difficult to fix it as you get older. It's much easier to maintain good health once you have it and right now you lack time, you have no structure to get and stay healthy and even worse is that your kids are likely to follow your example and become obese at a young age, making their lives harder and unfortunately also a lot shorter and that is not good. I think you should talk to your wife about this and open up about the idea. I'm sure you've already spoken with her about this, but I think you should open up about the idea that you won't need retirement funds when you die 20 years too early. Because candidly, your easily 200 pounds overweight, you're younger than I am. You're the same height. You're 220 pounds heavier than me or 215 pounds heavier than me. Think about that. If there were two of me at my current weight, you would be heavier than both of us.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:17:39] It literally be, if you and I melded into one person, because I'm six feet tall and 220 pounds.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:44] Yeah. Yeah. That's --

Jason DeFillippo: [00:17:46] Scary thoughts.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:47] It's scary. Yeah. Because you and I are not thin, Jason, by any measure.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:17:51] No. I'm already overweight and worried about my health and to add on another, oh my gosh.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:56] To add a Jordan.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:17:57] To add a Jordan would be catastrophic.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:00] There could only be one.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:18:03] Only one. Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:04] If you've ever seen me on YouTube. I'm not overweight, but I am not thin and skinny. I'm built like a normal, I'm even built a little bit more robustly, but I'm not overweight. I weigh what I weigh now, I weighed in high school, so you don't want to be 220 pounds heavier than this. That's dangerous. So not only are you harming your own body, but your children are following suit and so is your wife. I know that you say she doesn't have weight issues, but there are multiple studies now that show the network effects of things like weight gain, smoking, bad habits. She might not be overweight, but I can guarantee you that her health and the health of your kids are suffering because of the way that you're treating your body. So to be clear, I just want to be really clear. I'm not trying to shame you. I'm actually giving you the ammo. You need to have a conversation with your wife on this. If she pushes back, she doesn't want to budge. And I'm not sure that's what you'd indicated here. But if she's really digging in her heels, I highly suggest seeing a therapist about this a few times alone, yourself. Prep for the conversation, then bring your wife to therapy and have a conversation with a therapist in the room. The therapist who might have a different strategy but it's probably going to be this one. And yes, you might have some trouble later on getting back into the corporate arena, but then again, you might just be fine, especially as you've got experience. Further, even if you can't get back into the workforce right away or you have to start lower on the ladder, then you'd like, at least you'll survive. And that's more than I can say for what's likely to happen if you don't start taking care of your body.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:19:40] It also sounds like he hated his job, which kind of, we cut out for brevity and he's hit the ceiling with the current job that he has. And, but while he's taken his sabbatical, there's nothing to stop him from learning a new field with home study or taking online courses. And that way when he goes back, he can reenter the workforce with at least the hope of a better career than jumping right back into a job that made him miserable, that he'd be stuck in and probably make him put more weight back on.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:05] You know, that's a good point. The weight thing probably has other environmental factors like stress and depression at the job.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:20:12] Absolutely.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:12] And you're right. If he's got that time off, yes, he'll be taking care of kids. Yes, he'll be working out, but who's to say he can't spend an hour or two per day getting certified in Microsoft, I don't know, accounting software or whatever it is that you're doing that you're interested in or something brand new. You can, you can earn a college degree at home in that amount of time if you need it to.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:20:37] Easily.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:37] Probably associates degree, but yeah, you could do it all online or you could get certified for a trade, which is probably more useful.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:20:43] Or he could get training on the job that he previously had. Take that experience that he had figured out what the next level is and maybe get a certificate in that. There are so many online courses right now. You can get certified in just about anything or at least he can keep up with the state of the industry. So when he comes back, he's still knowledgeable about what's going on and then he can jump past that glass ceiling that he'd hit and go from there. If he's going to be at the gym a lot, that's a lot of time to listen to audiobooks and do online learning. Just listening to things or take your iPad while you're on the treadmill and take classes.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:16] Good point. I hadn't thought about that. Yeah. Using the time to grow is going to be a good antidote to try to figure out how to cold reenter the workforce. You could say, "Yes, I took some time off because I wanted to study such and such subject, take care of my kids and I lost 200 pounds." People will be like, okay, so you weren't just sitting around watching reruns of the A-Team. You getting after it and you were taking care of kids like that shows a different path and incurs a different amount of credit than somebody who just says, "Well, you know, I left because I really didn't like my career and I needed some time to figure things out." Or, "Yeah, I took time off to be with my kids." It's like, "Okay, I guess that makes sense." But if you have done all of these other things and achieved all these other things, it might even be -- I won't say it's better than work experience, but it could be definitely quite different and possibly better than additional experience in your current job where you said there's no upward mobility,

Jason DeFillippo: [00:22:15] It's also good ammunition for the conversation that he has with his wife saying that, "Look, while we're doing this, time off, I will be able to go back and make more money when I go back. Instead of being stuck in a job where I've hit the ceiling and my salary is going to be capped. So if I can take this time, take care of the kids, take care of myself, I'm going to be here longer, which means I'm going to have more years to live, which means I'm going to make even more money because I'll be able to get a better job when I come back."

Jason DeFillippo: [00:22:43] This is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back after this.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:47] This episode is sponsored in part by HostGator.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:22:49] When internet pioneer, Jaron Lanier, was on the show recently. He gave us some pretty compelling reasons to consider deleting our social media accounts besides their constant privacy issues and contribution to the mass production of misinformation, it's unlikely any social media platform will be around forever. And if you don't believe me, just ask MySpace, Tom, how he's enjoying retirement. If you want to ensure your internet presence, we'll be around long after your favorite social media account has gone the way of the dodo, just build your own website. Sounds complicated. It's not. HostGator can help you carve out your very own place on the web as it has for eight million others starting at just $2.64 a month. This is why we recommend HostGator for creating and maintaining your best possible online presence. You don't have to know the first thing about programming or design in order to custom craft your own mobile-friendly website. Thanks to HostGator's simple drag and drop builder. Choose from hundreds of themes to effortlessly switch up your presentation as you see fit or run it all on WordPress with one easy click. Gauge your site's performance with analytics that don't take a cryptographer to decode. Stay engaged with your audience across the entire social media landscape, accept payments directly from customers and trumpet your presence to the world's most used search engines with HostGator's arsenal of tools at your disposal. HostGator's 99.9 percent uptime guarantee and around-the-clock support ensure your website is available to the eyes of the world every day and night of the year. Got a tight budget. No worries. As long as you're a new user, you get to try any HostGator package for up to 62 percent off the normal price, just for hearing the sound of my voice. And if you're not completely satisfied with everything HostGator has to offer, you've got 45 days to cancel for a refund of every last penny. Check out hostgator.com/jordan right now to sign up. That's hostgator.com/jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:41] This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help. If there's something that's interfering with your happiness or preventing you from achieving your goals. I think therapy, I mean -- look, you guys have heard me recommend therapy a bunch on Feedback Friday. A lot of people write in with questions. Therapy is good for you, even if you don't have a life crisis. And Better Help online counseling is really convenient. They have licensed professional counselors who are specialized in issues like depression, stress, anxiety, relationships, sleeping, trauma, anger, family stuff, grief stuff, self-esteem stuff. You can connect with your professional counselor. It's all safe and online, private, confidential. It's really convenient because it's all online or on your phone. You can help at your own time at your own pace. You can schedule a secure video or phone session plus they've got chat and you can text your therapist. And if you don't like them, then you can just get another one. You don't have to drive across town to make that happen. So it's convenient, really, really simple. It kind of takes a lot of the objections away from trying it out. Jason.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:25:38] Best of all, it's a truly affordable option for our listeners and they can get 10 percent off their first month with discount code JORDAN. So get started today. Go to betterhelp.com/jordan. Simply fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with a counselor you'll love, betterhelp.com/jordan.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:25:56] Thanks for listening and supporting the show. To learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit jordanharbinger.com/deals. And if you'd be so kind, please drop us a nice rating and review in iTunes or your podcast player of choice. It really helps us out and helps build the show family. If you want some tips on how to do that, head on over to jordanharbinger.com/subscribe. Now let's hear some more of your questions here on Feedback Friday.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:25] Next up, I've got a guest slot with my friends, Vadim and Sergei Revzin. They run a show called The Mentors and they've got a pretty good insight on why many people don't pursue their true creative, entrepreneurial or career interests because it feels too risky and we want to talk about things like financial obligations, sunk cost fallacy, golden handcuffs. These guys are pretty sharp and they outlined this whole thing and we'll link to their podcast in the show notes of course as well.

Vadim Revzin: [00:26:48] So the first thing that doesn't really come natural for people is actually being good at evaluating risk. And so you have to practice it to get good at it, almost like anything else, right? Anytime there's any kind of uncertainty, we've evolved to automatically assign a high level of risk to that. And so most people just act on whatever they automatically assign in their brains. If something feels risky, they make decisions based on that. And that's why oftentimes people don't pursue, let's say a new job or a creative endeavor or a startup business that they want to think about. And so the first step to getting better at evaluating risk is understanding that there's a difference between real and perceived risk. Real risk is something that can actually cause substantial harm to you personally or your family or your financial wellbeing. And perceived risk is something that typically doesn't actually result in one of those big negative effects. And remember, this is actually pretty natural. Steven Pressfield wrote a book called The War of Art. And he's a famous author and he's written screenplays and like, but he didn't actually attain the level of success that he was striving towards until he was about 40. And his whole book, The War of Art talks about how their sort of our lizard brain or whatever you want to call it, that tells us to not do something because of risk of failure. And so it's actually pretty natural to not want to pursue your creative interests or not want to do something just because your brain is telling you this. And so the, what we're trying to say is you have to have some awareness of first to make that change.

Vadim Revzin: [00:28:22] Now, some of these potential risks could include let's say financial obligations that you might have, like student loans. The sunk cost fallacy, so let's say you invest a lot of time into your career, but then you realize you don't like it at all and you want to change it. So you might think like, "Well, I already invested too much into this and I shouldn't." Golden handcuffs, so you're getting paid too much at your job and switching careers might feel like risks. That you're going to lose some of that potential income opportunity. But if you're miserable in whatever that you're doing, it actually serves you to pursue that creative interest, whether it's entrepreneurial or a new career path because overall it's going to have a net positive effect on your life.

Sergei Revzin: [00:29:03] And so the way to start, at least getting better at evaluating risk is anytime you feel something is risky, whether it's a social interaction that you have or something that you want to pursue, just stop yourself and start thinking about, okay, what is the worst-case scenario of "a go or no go" action and what is the best-case scenario, the true worst-case and true best-case scenario. And just the process of thinking about it and writing it down over time, you actually get better at recognizing what is true and what is not. And so what is actually one actionable way to remove even perceived risk for yourself? Well, for me and Vadim that that process seems easy, whether it's a business or a job like we said, we think it starts with making yourself marketable in that thing, right? Even if you don't necessarily have work experience in a certain job or even if you don't necessarily have experience in starting a specific kind of company or working in a specific kind of industry, you can still work on ways to make yourself marketable in that field. So Vadim, you actually have a good story of how you got into sales without ever having any sales experience.

Vadim Revzin: [00:30:07] Yeah, I was in finance and it paid pretty well, but I hated my life and I was fortunate enough to have a cousin that was starting a company. He got a little bit of funding, certainly didn't have enough money to pay me and I wanted to get into tech. And for me, there are two ways to get to tech. You're either building the product or you're selling it. And so I figured sales experience is something that's relatively easy for me to get. Since I was young and since I had some free time, I volunteered to go into his office after work three times a week and just practice doing cold calls while his VP of sales listened in on the calls and gave me feedback. I was doing this completely for free. To be honest, I didn't close any deals, but that experience alone actually ended up landing me an offer from an established tech company that put me through a rigorous sales training program and within 10 months I quit that job and got a lead sales role at a tech startup that was going through an accelerator. So really completely shifted my career in 10 months because I was willing to do the free work. If you want to acquire new skills, you have to be willing to do that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:31:05] So you basically auditioned for a job by going, "Hey, look, I know I'm not going to be good at this right now, but I want to learn it." And then they're thinking, "Maybe not, but maybe they need that," and they're thinking, "All right, good opportunity." So when you combine those two things and you actually end up good at it. And worst case, I think a lot of people are going, "Well, they're exploiting you. They're getting free work." Well, not really because you didn't close anything, but theoretically you could audition for that and find out you're not good at it or you could audition for that and find out you are good at it and of course you're not going to go work somewhere else. They just trained you.

Vadim Revzin: [00:31:35] Exactly. So many people think, "You know what? I want to quit my job so I can focus on my business full time," or, "I want to quit this particular career path so that I can pursue a different one." But you can actually, first of all, find out whether you like it or not on someone else's dime or through that free experience. You might as well try that. And you know what? Actually in that 10-month process, when I got a job at that established tech startup that was paying me to learn how to sell, I realized I didn't actually love sales, but I was pretty good at the demo and the technical part. And so I ended up transitioning to sales engineering and eventually product management through that process. But I would never have known if I didn't take that "risk" and actually try something new.

Sergei Revzin: [00:32:11] The perfect example as well is we had put up a job posting at a couple of universities a couple of weeks ago for a social media and marketing intern and we got a ton of applications because people are excited about podcasts, right? So out of those applications, I can tell you that may be out of the 40 or 50 people that applied, only two or three actually had the word social media marketing in their resume. And out of those, one person had built out her own social media following. So with every single person that applied that look at all interesting, I immediately went on their Instagram to see how many followers do they have. And this woman had 30,000 followers and so it didn't matter to me that she never did it for any other company. It didn't matter to me that she didn't have a bunch of marketing jobs on her resume. What mattered most is that she built up her own brand for herself, and that's already convincing enough for me that she could probably do the job, even though she probably didn't get paid for it very much.

Vadim Revzin: [00:33:04] So you don't have to quit your job. You don't have to tell your spouse, your family, that you're going into this completely unknown realm that will seem risky to them and probably to you as well. There's a lot you can do on your free time to be able to accomplish that. And look, I know we're all busy. You might have a family, but if it is something that you think is going to ultimately bring you more fulfillment, you do have to make the time and reprioritize things as well. There's always the weekends. For example, if you're interested in startups that used to be this popular thing called startup weekend where you literally just separate yourself from your normal environment and go into a weekend and hack away at a product over the whole weekend and a lot of companies start that way because you're able to find teams that way as well. Your only risk is maybe you won't get to relax that we can, but you'll actually grow substantially in your career as well. And also in order to de-risk it for again, your family and friends and other people that might not be initially supportive, the best way to get them on board is to actually show them some traction that you have. So if it's a new career that you're trying to pursue, maybe you start building a network around that. Then you start actually getting some interesting people that are supporting you as well. That will then lead to interviews. That will then lead to potential job offers. That again is positive signaling for people that love you. Maybe you're trying to pursue new business. We'll start actually pre-selling it before you have a product. Maybe you can even get some little initial revenue beforehand. And again, that's some positive signaling for people that initially may have doubted you.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:29] Yeah, this is great. So learn the difference between real and perceived risk. Knowing that rejection is not really a real sort of failure. And real objections are real risk like financial obligations for student loans versus sunk cost fallacy, golden handcuffs and an unsupportive family that maybe just doesn't want to see you fail or people around you that don't want to see you fail and are telling you that you can't or shouldn't do it. And also then of course trying to acquire new skills before you try to go all-in or jump into a new career by either getting more responsibility at work or seeing if you can just sort of audition for another job. And it's pretty good advice. And I think this sort of perceived risk, sunk costs, golden handcuffs, and real things like loans do often keep people from diving in. But so do almost fake objections like your mom telling you not to do it because it's too risky or the idea that you don't know what you're doing.

Sergei Revzin: [00:35:26] Yeah, exactly. It just takes a little bit of a shift in your own thinking and kind of going against your natural state of mind. And quite frankly, the state of mind of other folks as well.

Vadim Revzin: [00:35:37] And I think I'll close with this. And the example that you just mentioned, Jordan, your mom, your mom loves you and hopefully, she wants the best for you, right? But she is, her brain automatically goes into protective mode because you're her child. And so she's always trying to minimize the risks. She's not thinking about whether it's real or perceived. So there are certain things that you should definitely go to your mom for, but you have to ask the right people for advice when you're trying to evaluate risks sometimes. So if you want to start a business, talk to other entrepreneurs. If you want to get into sales, talk to other sales people. Sure, you want to get very depictions. But make sure you're getting the advice to properly measure that risk from the appropriate people that are relevant.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:13] Guys, thank you very much.

Sergei Revzin: [00:36:14] Thanks Jordan.

Vadim Revzin: [00:36:15] Thank you.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:16] So thanks to Vadim and Sergei Revzin for this and their podcast is The Mentors. We'll link to that in the show notes.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:36:23] We'll be right back with more Feedback Friday right after this.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:27] This episode is sponsored in part by From You Flowers. Mother's Day, Sunday, May 12th coming up probably really quickly. You might even be listening to this with like hours left to spare. Have you gotten your mother something special yet? If not, you need to get off your butt. You can't go wrong with flowers. Friends of the show, fromyouflowers.com has a great deal right now for Jordan Harbinger listeners. If you go to fromyouflowers.com/jordan, a dozen mixed roses for 20 bucks, two dozen with a vase for $10 more. So that's $29.99, 30 bucks for a big arrangement of 24 roses in a vase delivered in time for the mother of all holidays. Just before you get in trouble for not doing anything. That's fromyouflowers.com/jordan. I'm getting two dozen because you know you're worth it mom. And I think it looks more impressive and it's 30 bucks. You know, your mom's done a lot for you. You cheap bastards. Guaranteed freshness and on-time delivery from the company that's been awarded the highest customer satisfaction as far as online flower retailers in 2019 by J.D. Power. Order today, supplies are limited. These guys always run out. Not these guys, but flower guys in general. Mother's Day is just like flower-armageddon so order today before they run out. They will sell out. fromyouflowers.com/jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:41] This episode is also sponsored by MedMen.

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Jason DeFillippo: [00:38:27] Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us on the air and keeps us going and keeps food in our little baby's mouth so we appreciate it. To learn more and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit jordanharbinger.com/deals. And now back to the show for the conclusion of your questions here on Feedback Friday.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:49] Jason, what's next?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:38:50] Triple J. Hello. First off, thank you so much for featuring Mimi Ikonn on your show. I learned how to curl my hair years ago from her YouTube tutorials and my hair has never looked better.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:00] See we focus on what's important here on The Jordan Harbinger Show. That episode did have a couple of mixed reviews. A lot of people loved it. A lot of people hated it. I like Mimi and her husband, Alex, and I'm always biased when I have friends on the show, so I thought I'd go a little outside my comfort zone, so I feel you. I'm glad that you liked that episode. I'm glad that you like Mimi. They're really good people.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:39:19] About three months ago I took a part-time freelance gig. Very quickly the parent company took notice of me and other departments have approached me about a bigger role and have already used me for several high profile opportunities. My immediate boss, who is also new to the company, has been trying to stop my rise. I've heard from others that he's gone out of his way to keep me out of the loop, disinvite me from things, et cetera to my face. He gives me rave reviews. I'm going to have to work with him in some capacity due to the nature of my work. But ideally, I want to work in a more cross-functional role with other departments away from his clutches. What do I do? Do I talk to my boss honestly, or should I get other execs to go to bat for me? Thanks. My Boss is Blocking my Shine.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:59] So first things first, take a second to appreciate why your boss is acting this way. They're threatened, maybe they're insecure. You're doing a really good job. That's enough to make them knock back a little bit. I mean, these are good signs, so take a second and appreciate why this is happening. It's not because they think you're a horrible person or something like that. I mean, it's pretty natural. But what I would do to solve this is to connect with them. It's easy to go head to head with and just go nuclear and turn against your boss overtly or even subconsciously. When someone is undermining you, the first thing a lot of us go to is, "I'm going to screw this person over. How dare they," but I think it's possible, It's a little innocuous. At least be the person who tried to make it right by connecting with them, finding out how you can be more of service and I know that, and I know that that sounds a little vague, but we could use some more details, but look, if there are total incompetent dickhead, at least be a diplomat. You could say something like, "I heard there's a sales report and it would've been really useful for me to have that. I know the team got it, but I didn't get it. Is there a reason that I didn't get it?" Instead of being super patronizing or accusatory, you can really go in on sort of a fact-finding mission. When you frame things in this way before accusing someone, it's good because this is a safe way to bring it up. You're not just going in guns blazing. You're not just pointing a finger and putting someone on the defense. Either way, you get an answer to your question without being a jerk. You know, your boss might say, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Here it is. I need to be better about that." It could come across innocuous. It could actually be an accident or it could be, "Oh, I sent it to you." "Oh yeah, no, I know. Oh, oops. I guess I forgot," and then you're like, "Okay, I'm getting a sense they're not telling me the truth here." And then it happens again and again. Then you know, it’s sabotage. Framing things before you accuse someone is always safer.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:46] Also, I would document this stuff, type this up in Google Docs whenever it happens. Like I didn't get them invited to the meeting. Then got an email from the boss later accusing me of not coming to the meeting and swearing that she invited me and not attaching the sales report that she says she wants her summary of in three hours. Type that up in Google Docs. The reason I say Google docs is because there's version history and its third party, so when you type a Google Doc, you can go into the history of the document under file and you can find what these versions of your journal looked like last week, three weeks ago, a month ago. That way if you ever have to use this information or you're turning it into HR and your boss goes, "She just made that up yesterday." You can go, "Cool. Here's all the Google history that shows exactly what day and time I typed all this in so it's not made up. It happened over this course of time and it happened on the same day that the events occurred. That's when I journaled it." That will be very, very good information. Documenting is the enemy of people that are mistreating you at work, especially if they're a decent person who is just feeling threatened. There's more room to maneuver over here, you know, run the same test, tell him the same thing about not knowing why he didn't get the document, et cetera, and then speak to them in the same way. If they're a decent person then great. I mean, look, also when someone is our boss, we often assume they have a lot more power and authority than they do. So you might be really worried about any sort of confrontation here. Maybe you shouldn't be.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:14] Chances are you're producing amazing results for the company that might protect you from someone like this, especially if you're also documenting your wins and the work you're putting into things. So I would consider keeping a light journal of your efforts. Again, you can do it in Google Docs. Lawyers bill in six-minute increments. So if anyone's ever like, "Hey, what did you do this past month?" You have everything written down. "Oh, I attended this meeting, I went to this." You don't have to document every single thing. But I would, especially as a freelancer, be in the habit of showing what you did a few sentences for each day of work. Because if your boss ever tries to step to you and says, "Well, she doesn't even do anything." Then you can be like, "Here's everything I've been doing. You see my results and here's me actually doing it. Here's a daily journal with little entries about what I did to move the ball forward in my area of responsibility." And if you notice that your boss is incompetent, you're probably not the only one who notices this either. So do some cross-departmental networking so that if you ever want to segue into a full-time position with the company, you can look at other people in the company and you can approach them for a position instead so that you still have a future with other departments and with the company. Just in case your boss here wins this particular fight somehow. And the way I would do some cross-departmental networking, go grabs Six-Minute Networking, it's free, jordanharbinger.com/course is where that is, and I'll teach you how to reach out to people and maintain relationships.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:43] I would also throw in some lunches with other people in the company, in different departments and when they're like, "Uh, who are you and why do you want to go to lunch?" You can say, "Look, I'm actually a freelancer. I'm exploring full-time opportunities with the company and I'd love to find out what it's like to work on the projects that you're working on and in your department." And you might have to treat the first time, but I bet you won't have to treat the second time. And I would do lunch with them, maybe try a different person each week or every other week. No huge time commitment, but it'd be great if you got to know a bunch of different people in the company. It's a little bit of a safety net.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:15] At the end of the day, if you're a high performer, even if you're nice, it can come across as a little too ambitious and aggressive. So speak in teams and if you have to go to your boss's boss over their head speak in team. So instead of saying, "I want this and I need this person in my way, I need them gone," say and speak like, "Look, I love this company. I love the work we're doing. I just want to be able to do this as well as possible and be able to continue to do it. Perhaps I can go to another department." Again, that's if you have to talk to your boss's boss. That way you're saying, "I'm just trying to be a team player and I want to keep doing that, but I don't think I should be in this department." Instead of, "My boss is a big jerk and has always sabotaging me," which is what every loser says about their boss. The adult equivalent of, "The teacher hates me, so I got a bad grade"

Jason DeFillippo: [00:46:04] True that. True that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:05] Yeah. All right, next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:46:07] Hey Jordan. I'm in my mid-30s and pretty much been doing IT support contract work for the past seven years. During this time I really haven't made any new friends or contacts. Once work is over, it's over for me. I'm out. I don't want to hear or see anyone from my professional network on my own time, but obviously, this is a cause of some problems. Because of this, the only friends I have are two people I met when I studied in Japan over 10 years ago. One that lives in Austria and another that works in Japan. No one around me locally. I've tried going to meet up groups that had some interest in me, but I never could form any connections. I was diagnosed with Asperger's 20 years ago, so part of the problem is that it's hard for me to read people, although I'm much better now than I was five, 10, or 20 years ago. I guess I never have had a strong desire for relationships, even though they are essential in this world. What do you do to expand your network when there isn't a well, to begin with, and how does one even make the well, they need when they're not thirsty, but they know they need water. Sincerely, Stuck in the Desert.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:07] Way to beat. That metaphor, man, I hear you. Most people have connections though but don't realize it. And in Six-Minute Networking, we talk a bit about this, but obviously, somebody with Asperger's will likely have a few more social issues than somebody without that said. If you're working your way through Six-Minute Networking, which is at jordanharbinger.com/course, when you have to list people that you knew or connected with back in the day, that's called our layoff lifelines exercise. You can feel free to include professional connections as well as personal ones. If you have no personal connections, fine, now is the time to create those. What I would do is do that layoff lifelines drill from Six-Minute Networking, which is essentially where you're making a list of all these people that you wish you'd stayed in touch with, you know, college professor or your old boss, whatever. Even if you don't have any personal connections, you still went to school, you still have an old boss somewhere, you still got colleagues you used to work with, you still got to people from back in college or something. Start there. You don't have to have some vibrant social life to be a great connector and a decent network or you don't. You just have to start somewhere and take the five or six minutes a day that these drills require.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:15] For those of you who want to easily create personal and professional connections, definitely go to jordanharbinger.com/course. I'm telling you, I get all these networking questions. I designed Six-Minute Networking to handle those. I know a lot of you are like, "Oh, I don't need professional networking." "Oh, I can't do this because I'm an introvert." Just try it. The reason it takes six minutes a day is so that people who think that they can't do it can try it and find out that they can. All right, I promise you. I designed this with the introverted mind. It's not about being the coolest guy at some dance club. It's really, really easy. All right, next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:48:49] Hi, Jordan. Greetings from Vietnam. I often listen to your podcasts while riding my motorbike through the mad, noisy traffic of Hanoi. Don't worry, it isn't too dangerous.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:48:57] Sure.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:57] Yeah. Right.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:48:59] Besides, I'm originally from Serbia and I know that you spent some time living there, so that's kind of cool. Here's my dilemma. I don't personally enjoy sharing personal stuff on social media and feel that most of the things we post about online are bragging about how awesome our life is. I feel comfortable posting in a frequency of only a few times a month. Having said that, I'm aware that building a strong social media presence is very important in today's world and brings many benefits. This is especially true because I want to make a name for myself as a writer in Vietnam as I'm soon going to publish a novel in Vietnamese. How do I reconcile this? Should I change my perception on social media or try to go against the trend? What's your view on this matter? Truly yours, The Writer Who Doesn't Like to Write on Facebook?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:41] I will admit social media is largely a waste of time in my opinion. I have some friends who are amazing at it. Like Mimi Ikonn who you heard this week. She's born for this stuff. She enjoys it. She's smart with it. She looks good in it. Can't really beat that combination really. But what you're feeling is FOMO, fear of missing out. I am all too familiar. When Instagram started, I had no interest for like five or six years. I didn't care at all and I am still sort of in that camp. I finally started Instagram I think in like 2017 October, something like that.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:50:15] Late to the party.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:50:16] Yeah, and I did and it was really late. It was basically 2018 and I use it occasionally. I don't look at people's stories. I'm not screwing around on there. I rarely open it other than to interact with people who have sent me messages, rarely for anything else. And I've got Instagram, I've got other social media, like Twitter. I post things like articles, show links, photos, funny stuff mostly, mostly funny stuff. I let people who are listening to the show here into my life, I interact with show fans using the messenger because you all expect to find me there. And that's pretty much it. I think I would survive just fine without it otherwise. And you don't need to have a great Instagram social media presence before you write the book. If you already had one, great, it's good for marketing. Really good. That said, building it big enough to be important is a full-time job and it's a job you'll probably hate from the sound of it. It's unlikely you'd be able to start now and build a following big enough to make a difference in your book sales. So what I would do instead is do the bare minimum. make accounts on each of the main ones that you use in your market. So if in Vietnam, let's say it's Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, whatever. Then schedule a check-in appointment every week at least once or twice just to check the inboxes and check your people sending you messages or whatever you want to do. And then twice a month or so I would post on there just that minimum amount to keep people engaged, post things that are important to you. And you could even sit down for an afternoon at a cafe and create all of the posts for the whole year so that you just don't have to think about it anymore. If there are photos of you writing and their little passages and quotes that you like, you could just assemble all of those. You could even outsource a lot of that, get it all done in an afternoon and then you're essentially done. Other than posting social media for the whole year.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:52:10] In my opinion, social media is a little hobby that a lot of people have. Just like any other hobby. Look at podcasting, for some, it's a hobby and they talk about Boston ice hockey with their buddies every third Sunday of the month. They don't care who listens. For others, they never bothered doing their own podcasts. They just like listening to others. And then there are weirdos like me, just freaks who found something they love. They got way too into it now. It's their job and you can't start to do everything that you or others think you should be doing. You'll end up with zero time for yourself and for your real deep work. Speaking of which, grab Cal Newport's books, he's got Deep Work and Digital Minimalism. He'll show you why I'm right about this social media stuff and he'll help you strike the right balance. Listen to my earlier podcast with Cal Newport as well. It'll help you let go of the idea that you need any of this social media stuff. And we'll link to his Cal's books in the show notes here. Cal is a great person to listen to if you've got a little FOMO because he's basically like, "Nope, there's really no need for any of it and all the things you think you're missing, you can get in another way. You're welcome." And he gives you a plan to deal with that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:18] And congrats on the new book. I have to say, it's pretty amazing that you're writing a book in Vietnamese after learning it as an adult. I've learned a lot of languages as an adult and I am not about to write a novel in one of them. So that's really impressive.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:53:31] We can't even get you to write a book in English.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:34] Seriously, I know. Exactly. All right. Next up.

Jason DeFillippo: [00:53:39] Dear Jordan, Jason, and Jen. I'm a 27-year-old male working as an engineer and recently accepted a great job in the aerospace and defense industry. Thanks to your episodes with Alex Kouts. I was able to successfully negotiate my salary. However, I'm still in the process of interviewing for other positions with the competitor of this company due to the slower pace of that company's interview process. The company that's currently hiring me has already invested resources towards performing my background check and drug screening. Due to the length of this process, I haven't yet signed an employment contract or settled on a start date. It's unlikely I'll change my mind, but I'd like to know what's the best way to turn down a job. You already accepted. I listened to your episode 125 for mending a bridge you've burned, but is there a tactful way to do this so I don't burn a bridge? Sincerely, Curious Candidate.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:54:26] This is a tough one. Generally, honesty is going to be better here. Telling them you're still in an interview process would have been ideal. And that said, it might also have signaled that this company isn't your first choice. So the outcome could have been different as well. And I think at this point they'll feel burned, which is bad, but it might be worth it to work at the company you really want to work at. So is this Harvard versus Hamtramck high school? If so, take the better company. But if this is like Nike versus Reebok or Adidas, then be careful because these industries, even though they seem large now, they might turn out to be smaller than you want. You don't want a bad reputation in it. You don't want to ditch one company, go to the other. And then two years later, three years, four years later, you're applying again. And they're like, "Isn't this the guy who ditched us last time? Shred, no thanks." So worst case in this scenario, stay at a competitor for a few years and then move if you really still want to. But if this is a dream job and it's your number one choice and you're feeling serious FOMO now, then go for it. Burn the bridge with the current company. Realizing there might not be a good way to ever repair that bridge. It doesn't mean they'll be mad at you forever, but they will be angry and annoyed and you can't probably avoid that at this point. But you have to balance what you want with your ability to get it. And of course, what will happen as a result. Okay, last but not least,

Jason DeFillippo: [00:55:47] Hey guys, I'm in the middle of your Six-Minute Networking course and deeply appreciative. I'm thinking about building a networking spreadsheet through Google Drive instead of using CRM software. Can you share your method for building and organizing your spreadsheet? Thanks. Networking Newbie.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:56:02] So I do use a CRM, I use Contactually, but if you're going to create a spreadsheet, I don't have one. But what I do in Contactually is I organize people in buckets. So the buckets are 90 days, 45 days, and 21 days. And I think some of the buckets, which is the amount of time I have between contacting people. I could probably go from 90 days to six months, but it really is only taking me like an hour to 90 minutes a week to keep in touch with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people. And I wish I had been tracking earlier, but I would say 90 days, 45 days, 21 days. So 21 days is like family, super close friends. I almost never need that bucket because I'm in touch with those people anyway. So it never comes due. 45 days are people that I like, but I don't talk to that often. But I would like to and they're not going to get annoyed by me checking in at that rate and that I want to increase the relationship. And the 90 days is everybody on the periphery -- so former show guests, publicists and people that I occasionally hit if they have any clients that are going to be good for the show, people that have interviewed me a year ago, that kind of thing, so just sort of everyone else.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:57:09] My newest thing is gifting monthly. So somebody who's really done a number helped me help the show done something really nice or is just a cool person and I want to send them something. I will shoot them something. I do that once a month and I spend about -- it depends, 50 to 100 depending on the person. I want to make it nice. I'm not trying to send them like a shirt with my logo on it. And the way that you can select these people, you can either do it on a whim or you can also track important dates and milestones for these people, which I just started doing -- so birthday, anniversary, that kind of thing. Because if you give just because that's great, but if you give it on a holiday, you're gifting with everyone else. But if you say, "Hey, you and your wife are awesome, thanks for all the parenting advice, happy anniversary." They're going to be like, "Wow, these are the only people outside of our family that actually remembered this. That's amazing." You know that really sets you apart. So use the buckets, throw those in the spreadsheet tracking manually is going to be a huge pain and very unscalable but you're welcome to start that way and see how it goes from there.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:58:09] Recommendation of the week. So I haven't seen this yet, but I'm excited to see Chernobyl on HBO. Jason, have you seen this?

Jason DeFillippo: [00:58:17] I haven't yet. It just came out on Monday, but it's in the queue. It's definitely in the queue because it looks just riveting.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:58:25] I think if they don't screw it up and then it becomes all about like, I don't know the fictional part, but they actually really keep it close to the historical and there's a lot of sort of side -- now what am I looking for? Like plotline instead of just like, here's one couple that was in love in Chernobyl. I want more. I was hoping it was a documentary and then it wasn't like, "Okay, I still want to learn accurate things and not just like a made up out of whole cloth version."

Jason DeFillippo: [00:58:54] Yeah, yeah. It's a docu-drama. So you know, there's always going to be some editorial bent to it just to keep people involved. But I don't know from the trailers it looked like it was going to be fairly accurate. Did you follow Chernobyl when it happened?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:59:09] Well, I was too young. Chernobyl, for those of you who don't know, was it a catastrophic nuclear meltdown that happened in the mid-80s, late 80s or something like that. And it happened in Pripyat, which is Northern Soviet Ukraine. So basically they covered the whole thing up for a long time. All these people died. It's still abandoned because you can't grow or do anything there right now. Basically, they covered up the whole incident. It started to blow into Europe. It was just a huge mess. And even now, and I think for years and years and years, you're not going to be able to go and live there. I don't even know if you can ever go live there for thousands of years. I'm not totally sure what that's going to look like. I guess we'll see. Maybe they'll talk about that. But anyway, they're doing a docu-drama about it. So that should be on HBO. We'll include the link in the show notes as well.

Jason DeFillippo: [01:00:06] We'll also include a link to the animals of Chernobyl three decades later, which is a fascinating piece from National Geographic where people have gone in and actually taken photographs of the wildlife that have come back there. It's kind of crazy.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:20] Well, yeah, like there are wolves walking around essentially downtown.

Jason DeFillippo: [01:00:25] Yeah, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:26] Because there's --

Jason DeFillippo: [01:00:29] There are no people.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:29] There are no people, and of course they're probably getting all kinds of radioactive fallout or whatever. You know what else I've heard, I heard their motorcycle tours that go through there. I've heard that there are really old people that live there. Not in the town, but kind of nearby and they're just like, screw it because they're poor.

Jason DeFillippo: [01:00:48] Oh wow.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:49] Yeah, I know.

Jason DeFillippo: [01:00:50] That's crazy.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:52] Yeah, I would imagine there's also probably criminals there because any place that doesn't have police and very few people, there's going to be some people that are doing something strange there.

Jason DeFillippo: [01:01:03] Oh definitely. You can get some nuclear meth there, I'm sure.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:01:06] I'm sure. Yeah, exactly. People who go radiation, I'll be lucky to be alive in five years.

Jason DeFillippo: [01:01:11] Yeah, exactly. What have I got to lose, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: [01:01:14] Exactly.

Jason DeFillippo: [01:01:15] So yeah, you can actually get a tour from Kiev between $100 and $500 USD for a person.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:01:20] I think it would be cool. I do worry about going. Has anybody been to Chernobyl? I've got a friend who went, I would love to hear about people's experiences if they've gone, because what I would worry about is, "Hey, what happens when you inhale a speck of dust and that later on, it kills you?"

Jason DeFillippo: [01:01:35] Yeah. I'm going to skip that one. I know you like adventure tours like North Korea, but I don't mess with radiation, does one thing

Jordan Harbinger: [01:01:44] It would be different if it was like, "Oh, this is kind of a scary place with no government and they're taking you on a tour. But they've done it a bunch of times and ha-ha-ha." But I'm like, "How do you know you're not just going to inhale dust?" And then, later on, they're like, "Oh man that you have the crazy lung tumor from inhaling a speck of or a little bit of whatever that was blowing around because there was a tree on fire when you went to Chernobyl and 2019." It's like, "Nah, that wasn't worth it."

Jason DeFillippo: [01:02:12] Yeah. You can't really talk your way out of leukemia.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:14] No, exactly. Exactly.

Jason DeFillippo: [01:02:17] I'll pass on the tours but I'm definitely going to watch the show.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:20] Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week. Don't forget, you can email us friday@jordanharbinger.com to get your questions answered on the air. We always keep you anonymous. We're going to be running some events soon. I've got corporate training that I'm doing now, but we'll do some public-facing stuff at some point in the near future, so keep your ears tuned to that. If you're not on the mailing list, you might not find out about it. Last time we had a live event we mailed to the people that were doing Six-Minute Networking and only then. So go ahead and go to jordanharbinger.com and sign up to the email list there or sign up for the course, Six-Minute Networking, jordanharbinger.com/course.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:56] Quick shout out to Christine from the nail spa. I was there because I had raptor claws growing on my feet. She spotted me a couple of months ago and we took a selfie. She's been a show fan for six years. I thought it was pretty funny because I was looking over at us like, "Oh, there's this cute girl on the other side of the pedicure thing. I'm just going to sort of zone out and listen to my audiobook and we're the only people in here under 50 or whatever. And then she's like, "Are you Jordan Harbinger?" And I felt really freaking cool by the way. So if you ever see me out in public, it's always really kind of neat when I get recognized and makes me feel really pretty amazing, pretty awesome. And if I'm ever with friends they are always like, "Dang, your podcast must be so popular." So, I will readily admit that I am a sucker for that kind of thing. Who doesn't like a little validation? Come on.

Jason DeFillippo: [01:03:43] Seriously.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:03:44] Go back and check out the guests from this week, Leon Logothetis and Moby if you haven't yet. And if you want to know how I managed to book all these great people and manage these relationships, I've talked about it before here. Go grab Six-Minute Networking jordanharbinger.com/course. Do not ignore this habit. I know you're thinking, "I don't need networking." Yeah, when you do, you'll be like, "Oh crap. I didn't do any of that stuff. I didn't spend five minutes a day getting the insurance policy for my career and personal life." Don't come crying to me. jordanharbinger.com/course. I'm on Instagram and Twitter at @JordanHarbinger. It's a great way to engage with the show. There are videos of our interviews at jordanharbinger.com/youtube. Jason.

Jason DeFillippo: [01:04:24] You can check out my tech podcast, Grumpy Old Geeks at gog.show, your podcast player of choice. And we've been diving into the state of surveillance capitalism recently and going deep down the rabbit hole on deep surveillance and who's making money off of your data.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:04:37] Hmm, that's interesting. The answer is everyone, right?

Jason DeFillippo: [01:04:40] Everyone, everyone but you.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:04:41] This show is produced in association with PodcastOne and this episode was co-produced by Jen Harbinger. Show notes for this episode are by Robert Fogarty. Keeps sending in those questions to friday@jordanharbinger.com. Remember, we rise by lifting others, so share the show with those you love and even those you don't. Lots more in the pipeline, very excited for the upcoming guests, of course. And in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

Jason DeFillippo: [01:05:08] If you like our show, you're going to love The Producer’s Guide with Todd Garner and Hollywood's elite on PodcastOne. Join host and accomplished producer Todd Garner as he shares his thoughts and stories on the movie business and chats it up with his A-list industry pals like Kevin James, Rebel Wilson, Adam Sandler, and so many more. Download The Producer's Guide every Thursday on PodcastOne or wherever you get your favorite podcasts.