1228: You Cut and Run but Parents Treat Ex like a Son | Feedback Friday

1228: You Cut and Run but Parents Treat Ex like a Son | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer little Gabe on the prairie flitting about like a Finnish fairy before he crosses the Baltic on a ferry, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow, Bravo. That was some of your finest work, dude.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, that one wrote itself.

Honestly, that was just a little AlleyOOP on your increasingly zany life choices. Let's explain in a second. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks. Former Jihadi drug traffickers, astronauts, legendary Hollywood actors. This week we had Jimmy Kimmel, well, James Kimmel on the Science of Revenge and Kashmir Hill on AI chatbots driving people, literally driving people insane.

We also released a bonus episode, which was really Feedback Friday from last week. We rereleased [00:01:00] that because of an error, so if you didn't hear Feedback Friday last week, now it's the bonus episode from Wednesday. Sorry for the confusion, folks. We also did a Skeptical Sunday, last Sunday on, and I can't believe I'm about to say this, penis size.

No need to dwell on that one. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and keep up with Gabe across various modes of increasingly ridiculous transport.

Jase Sanderson: Hello, producer Jase here. If you'd like to skip Jordan and Gabe's pre ramble here and move swiftly to the first question, that's totally possible.

I'd suggest you stick around because it's a really fun story. But if you do want to skip to the first question, you can do so by skipping to eight minutes and 30 seconds, give or take, if you heard a advert at the top of the show.

Jordan Harbinger: So just to explain today's nickname, you're recording this episode in Stockholm today?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I'm in Stockholm. That's right. I took the boat here from Helsinki, which I think is what you're referring to. But I did not know what I was getting into when I booked this boat.

Jordan Harbinger: I swear every time I look at your Instagram, I start cracking up. 'cause you're always involved in some [00:02:00] bizarre new caper.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm honestly not trying to be this zany. Yeah. I'm just trying to get from A to B and weird shit keeps happening.

Jordan Harbinger: It's like the equivalent of I need to get across the room, I'm gonna walk in my hands to get there. Like, no, no, no. I need to. Last week your hippie grandpa Gabe, rocking out with your wool socks with reindeer around them sitting in a sauna with a bunch of hippie Dave Matthews Band Vikings this week.

You're boarding a cruise ship. None of it makes any sense. There's no cohesion, there's no through line.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Let me explain. So you can fly from Helsinki to Stockholm, obviously it takes like an hour. Someone told me that there's also a boat you can take and it takes 16 hours to get there, but you board this boat, you hang out, you go to sleep, and you wake up in Stockholm and it's supposed to be really fun.

And it's kind of a rite of passage for Finnish and Swedish kids. Apparently. It's kinda like a booze cruise situation. A little bit. A booze cruise or a booze cruise. A booze cruise with a beat. Booze cruise. Yeah. Like got it. Get cranked and they go to like the other country.

Jordan Harbinger: So my friend Johann, uh, obviously from Sweden, told me about these in the nineties.

He's like, man, if you come [00:03:00] visit me, we gotta take this. It's something to do with taxes. Like it's alcohol's so damn expensive in, I think Finland that. Swedish prices are cheaper by comparison, or maybe it's the other way around. I can't remember. So it's like you go there and it's like half off booze and it's just, you can finally afford to get drunk and it's all teenagers doing that, so I'm too old for that, basically.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, not me. Apparently not you. I'm just the right age for this shit. I don't know. Yes. Look, it's only a hundred dollars. So that's also part of the appeal. And then this way I didn't have to pay another 100 to $150 for, for my overpriced princess suitcase at the airport, which is getting heavier by the country.

So that was another plus.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. A cheap ride to Stockholm. A funny story. And no gate agent making fun of you for packing six pairs of Lululemon yoga shorts. Exactly. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But in my mind, I was picture, I don't know why I thought this, but I was picturing some kind of like.

Very no frills ferry. I was picturing, you know, like a beat up. Yeah. Two story boat. The kind of boat you take to Staten Island or [00:04:00] whatever. Sure. Because of Statue of Liberty and it has like one bar where a bunch of Nordic backpackers are getting drunk and a bartender is go like, I'll make you a sandwich if you want, or whatever.

And the rooms are like prison cells and you get a caught, if you're lucky. I was picturing a floating flop house based on the stories people told me. And then I get to the terminal. There's a massive cruise ship docked in the harbor, and I'm like, oh, okay. This is a literal cruise. That actually makes sense because we are crossing the Baltic Sea for 16 hours, obviously.

Yeah. I'm an idiot. I don't know why I thought it was gonna be anything else.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you're walking up to the check-in lady like, Hey, checking in for the 12 person catamaran the Stockholm, please, on one of world's most dangerous oceans.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was like, excuse me, could you point me to the pontoon that will be taking me across the open seas?

I don't know what I was thinking. I was ready to grab some oars and pitch in if they wanted me to.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no, I, I saw a. Tommy Hilfiger store in a wine bar in one of your photos and that that boat was not giving Nordic ferry. That boat was giving Royal Caribbean cruise in an archipelago.

Gabriel Mizrahi: More like Princess Cruises.

Yes. Right. With this [00:05:00] luggage. With that

Jordan Harbinger: luggage. Yeah. I'm surprised the crew stayed afloat with that suitcase on there.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, halfway to Stockholm. I just threw my homemade deodorant overboard just to help out. 'cause those jars are, they're not light. So no drunk Swedes. But did anything weird happen? Not really.

It was extremely normal and very mainstream. It was not at all what I expected. Honestly, the weirdest thing that happened on the boat was probably me doing zoom therapy at 9:00 PM from my room.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You did a session on a Nordic booze cruise. That's so on brand. That must have been a first for your therapist.

Like where are you right now? M Oh, I'm just leaving. Uh, well, Helsinki, uh, I'm three stories below deck, uh, doing my zoom therapy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She literally asked me that. She's like, where exactly are you? I wanna see on the map. And I was like, well, we left, uh, two hours ago from port. So that probably puts us just off the coast of this weird island that might or might not have inhabitants.

Anyway, I'm in the middle of the Baltic Sea. Let's talk about my childhood.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, let's talk about the Russian nuclear submarine that's below the boat. If you ever get satellite internet so strong, you heal your childhood [00:06:00] trauma. What do we call that? Scar link. Ooh, that was a little scar link. Nice scar link.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. The other funny thing was that the ocean was really rough and the ship was rocking. I mean, the ship is massive, but it was still rocking a lot. And so the whole session, I was kind of like swaying back and forth and trying not to get dizzy, and my therapist was like, are you seasick or are you like dissociating right now?

What is happening?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's

Jordan Harbinger: called self-soothing. I learned it at my

Gabriel Mizrahi: interpretive dance workshop. Dude, I'm giving you so much new material. You're still, you're still feasting at the dance workshop? Mm-hmm. Buffet. You can't stop. Anyway, I've been dizzy literally ever since I got off this boat. It's been two days.

Oh yeah. In Stockholm. The room, the room is still spinning. I've never had this before.

Jordan Harbinger: That's awful. Sometimes it takes a few days to pass. So what are you doing in Stockholm?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm visiting an old friend of mine, his name is Victor. He was my roommate for a few months in college. I did a program in Washington, DC where you go to DC for a semester.

You intern at a place. I interned at a think tank. Do you remember I told you about that class I took with a political speech writer?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. That was during that time. And anyway, this [00:07:00] guy and I lived together in an apartment and we also ended up interning at the same think tank. And we could not be more opposites like this guy was, when I met him, he was like the definition of the weird bon vivant guy you meet in a hostel and now he's like one of the top economists in Stockholm.

It's so funny. But yeah, he moved back to Stockholm. We stayed in touch over the last 15 years. He's one of the few people I keep up like an ongoing correspondence with, which has been so lovely. And in the meantime he's gotten married. He is had two kids. He almost died a couple times. This guy, which is so crazy.

He's okay now. And now I'm sleeping on the floor in his dining room and hanging out with him and his kids and it's just been really cool.

Jordan Harbinger: Sounds like a downgrade from the cruise ship to be honest, but that's very sweet.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm just happy to have a place to sleep in an actual home. I think these travels.

I've been having a great time. As you know, last week was bizarre and funny as hell, but these travels really caught up with me on the boat. I just hit a wall with all of them moving around and changing cities and dragging the suitcases, ev all of it. And I find [00:08:00] myself feeling homesick for the first time.

Really homesick on this trip, and I have a little bit of a cold, as you can probably tell. I just, I got sick. I'm so tired. Yeah. I can't stop sleeping. I just feel like I have mono or something, but like mono in my soul.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that'll happen. It takes a lot outta you. This lifestyle. I don't know how you're doing it, especially with all those bags.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I just gotta rest. I think it's nice to be in an old friend's home in a beautiful city. I have a, I have a whole new appreciation for like, you know, sitting down at a dinner table with people, you know, for years and having a soft landing. It's really nice. You

Jordan Harbinger: know what else is rejuvenating?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Diving into some fun ones and doozies.

That's

Jordan Harbinger: right. Bingo. Let's guide this Doz cruise out into the archipelago of WTF, shall we? Gabe, what is the first thing outta the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. Five years ago I had a wonderful child with a not so great man. The short version of our story is us moving continents so that he could drink copious amounts of beer with his buddies.

While I took care of our child and him going to work early to hang out with a female coworker, it was incredibly lonely [00:09:00] and I felt like a single parent.

Jordan Harbinger: That is rough.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm

Jordan Harbinger: sorry.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I didn't share any details about my relationship with my parents, which might be due to my mom over involving us in my father's extramarital affairs when I was young.

Picture my siblings and me at six years old sitting in on a conference call as my dad told his mistress that it was over.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, that's wild. So like her mom made her dad do it in front of the kids.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What a formative scene that is. Eh.

Jordan Harbinger: But to what? Put pressure on him. What the hell? What did, I can't follow this logic.

This is terrible parenting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe to show the kids that dad is really committed to them and he is done with this other woman. Either way. Not appropriate.

Jordan Harbinger: No, not appropriate at all. I am very sorry. Your parents handled things this way on so many levels. Geez. What was she thinking?

Gabriel Mizrahi: My parents also left me as a 10-year-old and my sister as a 12-year-old alone each year for one month so they could travel to Asia.

Left us totally alone. My sister took care of me. I think this would be frowned upon now.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Frowned upon is an [00:10:00] understatement. I'm pretty sure this is illegal in many states. Actually.

Gabriel Mizrahi: CPS would be the one doing the frowning, I think.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: More like the grimacing. That's rough.

Jordan Harbinger: How can people do this? Just leave your 10 and 12-year-old alone so you and your cheating husband can hit the horse races in Bangkok together for a month each year.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's what they were doing, right? Yeah. There's no world where they were like, there was like a more noble reason for that trip. Like, sorry guys, you gotta take care of each other while we go tour Anchor or Watt or something.

Jordan Harbinger: No, they're like being, I don't know. There's other things you could do that are even worse, but something tells me these neglectful parents were not ditching their kids to go chant with mon.

They were going to party and ride their moped home drunk from the Ladyboy karaoke bar.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You're probably right. Getting cranked in Kuala Lumpur. More like sch

Jordan Harbinger: wasted in Shanghai. Exactly. Yeah. Nice. Again, I'm really sorry your parents raised you guys this way. This is really sad. Your mother and father were not good parents.

I can confidently say that a childhood like this has gotta leave a mark and I assume that's in the background of this letter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I left the father of my child almost two years ago. It's been [00:11:00] an amazing change in my life. I'm now with a man who wants to be a father to my son. He loves doing family things.

He's a master communicator and we talk through issues. Without the world falling apart, we come out of things stronger. This might be the first healthy relationship I've ever been in.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Awesome to hear. They're very happy for you. It sounds like you're doing things much differently this time. Yeah. Good on you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But instead of being happy for my family, my parents have decided to fully support my ex. He lives at their house when he comes over from Europe, uses their car, stuff like that. My mom and my ex even dropped our kid off with me so that they could hang out together for the evening before my ex was leaving for five weeks.

Five weeks away from your kid and you want to hang out with my mom. Strange. She also found him as lawyer and I think she might be paying for him. Meanwhile, my ex didn't like my mom and dad much before we split up.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm guessing those two facts are related somehow. Somehow. Clearly. Yeah. This is so bizarre, Gabe.

Either her parents are truly the worst or there's something our friend here [00:12:00] isn't sharing with us that would possibly cause these parents to remain loyal to I'm, I don't know what that could possibly be. I don't know. Like

Gabriel Mizrahi: her parents are not fully on our side for some legitimate reason.

Jordan Harbinger: I think we have to acknowledge the possibility because we're only hearing one side of the story.

But I don't know. I mean, even if there are some

Gabriel Mizrahi: other facts, this is still very weird,

Jordan Harbinger: right? Yeah. There's kind of no set of facts where this is not bizarre to choose to hang out with your daughter's ex after they split up because you were drinking and carrying on with a coworker. Even if she somehow contributed to the marriage problems too in some way, which we don't know about, and not explaining to her why they're still supportive of him.

It's just weird and the whole dropping the kid off to hang out with your mom alone. My gross, perverted, speculative mind goes in all kinds of places that don't make sense.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was wondering if that's what you were just wondering. 'cause I saw you working through that as gross reading. It's

Jordan Harbinger: just, none of it makes sense.

What can you not bring your son to when you're hanging out with your mother-in-law?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a good point. And even if it's not the worst thing you're imagining, are they lighten up a spliff together? Yeah. And hanging out like what's, it's weird getting

Jordan Harbinger: drunk together at the very least. It's just the whole thing is so [00:13:00] fricking weird.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But here's another angle. She said, I didn't share any details about my relationship with my parents because of this whole problem with their parents and how they raised her. Right. But so her parents don't know what he did. So maybe they don't have the information they need to know that they shouldn't be taking a side,

Jordan Harbinger: but all this would still fit with their overall style of parenting, wouldn't it?

I mean, again, maybe she's not telling us everything, but I wanna believe that if they were like, look, we're sorry about your marriage, but we still love Dan. We still wanna have a relationship with him. Is there a way to do that without hurting you? I wanna believe she would've told us that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And that still doesn't change the fact that they're weirdly helping her ex find an attorney, which could hurt their own daughter somehow.

Yes. And

Jordan Harbinger: possibly paying for it. I'm just very confused by all of this. Anyway, carry on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I told my mom that I don't want a relationship with her because it's too hurtful. I said, I'll be nice at family events and she can see our kid. My dad and I have more of a relationship, but it's also weird. Now they're offering me a lot of money to help me through a tough time.

I told them they can use it to pay my ex off if they want, but otherwise I'm fine. I'm [00:14:00] now getting a ton of pressure to resolve this conflict from other members in my family. There's a lot of talk of healing and forgiveness, which makes me wanna run for the hills. I'm getting peace from distance and tight boundaries and I'm not ready to come back into the fold.

But it's tough because my kid gets so much outta being with his cousins and it's a ton of drama for my partner and I wanna make sure I'm spending more time having meaningful experiences with him than dealing with these icky feelings about my parents. I feel like my child deserves a relationship with them too, but it comes with a heavy price.

I go to therapy and I'm exploring all the fun facets of my past and present. I have my child in therapy too, and it's been really good for him.

Jordan Harbinger: That's great news. Really happy to hear all this. Now we get to skip the part where we make a bunch of people on Reddit angry that our advice is always go to therapy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly. Thank you for doing that for us. Although I will say if you ever need it to hit a little bit harder, just take your session on a cruise on the Baltic Sea. That's right. Just make sure you guys are, uh, all paid up on your scar link. So the letter goes on. How do I keep being involved with the extended family when I'm getting [00:15:00] so much pressure?

And why do screwed up families keep on making you pay the price. Signed looking for new defenses and wondering what the sense is in mending these hurtful fences.

Jordan Harbinger: Huh? What a story, what a family,

Gabriel Mizrahi: and what a question. Why do dysfunctional families keep dysfunctioning?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, just another garden variety question here.

No big deal. We got this. So first of all, as you can tell, we're pretty horrified by a lot of these details you've shared. I'm very sorry that you had these parents as well growing up. I know we don't have all the info here. I'm just sad and confused by all this. I can only imagine what these parents must bring up for you.

And I'm also sorry that your extended family is pressuring you to resolve a conflict with your family. That is frankly none of their freaking business, or at least very little of their business. Gabriel always amazes me. Somebody gets one side of part of a story, right, from like one family member and they're like, let me call and just involve myself in this situation because clearly you're telling me all of the relevant details and not leaving out [00:16:00] anything.

It's just absolutely ridiculous what goes on between you and your parents. Even if I weren't on your side, it's between you and your parents. If other people in your family wanna help guide you through it, if they wanna maybe offer to mediate or help you heal some rifts, fine. That's one thing. Although it's still up to you to decide if you want them involved, but for them to be pressuring you to heal and forgive if that is in fact what they're doing without appreciating the nuances and history and difficulties of this relationship with your parents and also not even bothering to get your side of it.

I can understand why that's incredibly frustrating. I don't think I could hold my tongue if this were me.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm very interested in the dilemma that she's in because she's created a, a tricky situation by being able to tolerate this relationship with their family. Like many people with this kind of background, this childhood probably would not even want to have a relationship or let their kid be around these kind of parents.

What she's doing is she's saying, okay, we're gonna be involved with each other and you can be part of our lives, but I'm also gonna protect myself. But then in the process, she's also still exposed to a lot of painful things from her [00:17:00] parents and from her ex as well. And so in a way, it's interesting.

She's kind of a victim of her own evolution.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Another person in her shoes might not even have a relationship with their family.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: So they'd maybe be at more peace, frankly, and they'd also be, of course, missing out on some of the upside.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I guess I just want to give her props for that because it does take a lot of strength to be able to enforce these boundaries in order to have a safe relationship with this family.

In a way, it's easier than just cutting them off or staying away completely, but in another way it's, it's actually harder.

Jordan Harbinger: I also wanna give you props for balancing your own needs with those of your partner and your child. You're doing so much right here, but Yeah. Not easy. So your question is, how do you keep being involved with your extended family when you're getting so much pressure from them to heal and forgive?

I think you need to accept that still having contact with your family is gonna bring up some difficult conversations and feelings for a while, maybe forever. Like we just said, if you refuse to have any contact with them whatsoever, you wouldn't have to deal with this pressure at all. But then you'd have to pay the price in other ways, [00:18:00] like your son not having his cousins or grandparents in his life.

So as long as you're willing to play in this boundary territory with them in order to enjoy certain benefits, which it sounds like you have some good reasons to do, but that's something you can reassess every now and again if you're gonna have contact with them, you're gonna have to build up a few other muscles.

One of those muscles is the ability to withstand your extended family's differing opinions. Another muscle is the ability to say, I appreciate that you want me to move on, repair things with my mom and dad, but that's between me and my parents. So I'm going to kindly ask you one dime to not pressure me to handle this the way that you want me to.

That's the politest way you can handle it. I'll leave it up to you or to look at this another way. Maybe the muscle you need to build is the ability to go to your parents and say, I am mystified and hurt by how much you're supporting my ex. Given how everything played out and if we're gonna fix things between us, I need you to help me understand why you're supporting a guy who hurt me in this way and that way, and I'd like to ask you why you'd rather support me financially than emotionally.

And then just try to really have [00:19:00] that conversation with them if they're even able to have it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And if they're not able to have it, then maybe the muscle to build is starting to share some of these facts with them that you haven't shared with them. I know you have some good reasons to not share everything with them.

It sounds like they're not the safest parents, so you just haven't wanted them to know all these details. But it is, again, an interesting dilemma that you're in because you want them to be on your side, but they don't have all the information about your life to know that they probably shouldn't be supporting this party.

But also another muscle might be the capacity to bear your anger with them. Your sadness about all this, your frustration about your ex, even the vulnerability in sharing some of the facts about your marriage with them, which you haven't done up until now. Knowing that there is no easy fix here. And then maybe find ways to let some of their difficult stuff roll off your back when you do have contact with them,

Jordan Harbinger: which is a tough muscle to build, right?

Because it almost feels like giving up and just taking all this on the chin. But there's a version of this that's more like giving up and there's a version of this that's more like zen [00:20:00] acceptance.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. That's the version I think she needs to develop along with probably just a lot of deep breathing, do some

Jordan Harbinger: yoga, a lot of deep breathing at Thanksgiving dinner for sure.

It's gonna be a practice. How much of this pressure and insensitivity can I recognize, feel, and just dodge whatever the emotional version of Tai Chi is? That's what she's gotta do.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So about your moral philosophical question here, why do screwed up families keep on making you pay the price? Can't wait to dig into this one because they're screwed up.

I I, they don't know another way. And for them to say, yeah, we're not gonna make, keep making you pay the price. They would have to acknowledge that they are making you pay the price. And that would require them to acknowledge a lot of very difficult stuff that has played out for many, many years. And I have to imagine that if they were the kind of people who could do that, then they wouldn't be your parents.

It would be different. That would be your family.

Jordan Harbinger: You'd have a different family, congratulations,

Gabriel Mizrahi: and then they would not have done all of this painful stuff in the first place. So

Jordan Harbinger: exactly. Even her question seems to imply that they're doing all this stuff consciously, candidly, I think the more likely scenario is that they're just doing [00:21:00] whatever they wanna do and not thinking about what it means for anyone else.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree with that, but I just have to say one more time, and I'm really don't mean to beat a dead horse, but she's saying, why do they keep making you pay the price? But she's also not telling them everything they need to know in order to maybe treat her as well as they could. And that's just something that I do think she needs to look at.

Look, the philosophical question is very interesting, but there might be a more helpful version of it, which is why do I feel like I keep paying the price for my family's actions and how can I try to shift that dynamic or at least change the effect a little bit?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, more practical

Gabriel Mizrahi: because like crazy families going crazy, but when they won't change, you can find a new way with them, or you can find a new way with yourself, a new way of taking care of yourself when they aren't particularly on your side or attuned to you.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Her job now, especially if she's in the right here, but even if she weren't totally in the right somehow. Her job now is to find a way to not let her family hurt her so much. I don't mean to say it's her fault, I'm pretty sure it's not. But if they're not gonna change, I agree. She has to change

Gabriel Mizrahi: and framing the [00:22:00] problem as why do they keep making me pay the price?

I mean, fair question kind of. But that might inadvertently be disempowering her because it's putting the onus on them to change in all the ways that she wants. When she can also change in a couple ways, then that means building those muscles we were just talking about. It means building those muscles.

And it also means regularly reevaluating how much contact she wants to have with them, how often she sees them, how much time she spends with them each time, all of that. But mostly how her relationship with them allows her parents to get in somehow to get under her skin. Which becomes a question, not just of these external boundaries, but those subtler internal ones that we talk about all the time.

Jordan Harbinger: I think the next area she needs to explore, and this is such a great thing to do in therapy on a boat or otherwise, is what parts of her are still quite vulnerable to her parents.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think some very old parts of her that have not been totally addressed, uh, based on the childhood that we got a glimpse of, and also what process takes place inside of her when they do and say these things that end up hurting her.

Jordan Harbinger: I believe her when she says they're making her [00:23:00] pay the price, but the actual process of how that happens to a person, it's always more complicated, right? They do a thing that lands ather in a certain way. It connects up with what happened in her marriage, her childhood. It taps into years of trauma from her parents.

It's informed by her own needs and tender spots and, you know, dot pain. She might not have much control over how her family treats her, but she does have control over how that lands with her and how this pain develops and ultimately how bad it gets. So I'm thrilled that you're working with a therapist.

I'm happy your son has that support too. And my wish for you is to meet this ongoing challenge with your parents and your relatives with as much curiosity as possible and as much courage as possible to learn and adapt and try things with them in a new way and just see what happens. I'm sorry, your parents have created all this pain.

I'm sorry your ex handled things this way, but there's a lot of good stuff here from your new partner to your son's wellbeing, to this opportunity to grow some parts of you. And that's the one big upside to all of this. Setting you a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know it's a great gift with which to [00:24:00] shower.

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Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. All right, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I have a friend I've known for nearly 25 years. We socialized often. I [00:27:00] valued her humor and energy and in the early years, I would include her family in holidays together. But since the beginning, I noticed the relationship was mostly one-sided.

She tends to dominate conversations, rarely asks about me. Can be rude, not just to me, but to waiters, salespeople and so on.

Jordan Harbinger: That's one of the most common red flags ever. Rude to waiters and service people. I tried to

Gabriel Mizrahi: overlook

Jordan Harbinger: this

Gabriel Mizrahi: and remain a supportive friend. Then a few years ago, she suffered the tragic loss of her son.

I felt for her deeply and wanted to be there for her.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's so sad.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Very kind

Jordan Harbinger: of you to support

Gabriel Mizrahi: her through that. But even through that period, her behavior often left me feeling drained and unappreciated shortly before she lost her son. An incident involving my son along with hurtful comments she made to me, directly pushed me to question whether I could continue the friendship at all.

These feelings really bubbled up after my mom passed away earlier this year.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, I'm sorry to hear about your mom. That's gotta be a big transition.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So fascinating how a death can kind of [00:28:00] snap things into focus in

Jordan Harbinger: every other part of your life,

Gabriel Mizrahi: you know,

Jordan Harbinger: especially a parent, I'd imagine. I'm gonna guess that losing her mom made her realize what's actually important in life.

She probably didn't get the same level of support from this woman that she had offered her, and at a certain point she's just like, yeah, this is bullshit. This friendship doesn't make any sense.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's probably the shape of it. Yeah. So she goes on. I feel torn. On one hand, I don't want to abandon someone who has gone through such profound grief.

On the other hand, I recognize that the relationship hasn't been healthy for me for a long time. When we spoke a couple months ago, I mentioned that I'd like to meet, to talk about some things that were weighing heavily on my heart. We're supposedly gonna meet sometime next month. That was her timeline.

If we do meet, how do I approach her and what should I say? Signed finding this treatment disconcerting and done with all the skirting, even though my friend is still hurting.

Jordan Harbinger: Good question. So obviously I'm very sorry that your friend has treated you poorly for so long, that her behavior has hurt you. In all these ways, everything you've shared [00:29:00] suggests that this is a very challenging friend.

Challenging

Gabriel Mizrahi: is such a polite word for what this is. You

Jordan Harbinger: know me, people say Jordan's two pc. It's true. When we do premium content, I swear, I'm just gonna unplug. You're gonna pop off. I'm gonna pop off. Anyway, yes. Challenging, problematic. And candidly, she's lucky that you've put up with her bullshit for so long.

How's that?

Gabriel Mizrahi: There it is. I like that. That that was for a second. I was like, where's my code? Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, my heart goes out to this woman for losing her son. That's a tragedy no matter who it's happening to you. That's the kind of thing you don't wish on your worst enemy, and I'm sure it's been very hard for her.

So I admire your willingness to tell your friend how she's impacted you. That takes a lot of vulnerability. It takes a lot of courage and I would, I would understand if you didn't wanna have this conversation and just wanted to quietly part ways, which by the way, totally an option. I don't know how much you owe somebody who's behaved this way slash I don't know how much capacity she even has to appreciate what your experience has been like just given the narcissistic and hurtful tendencies you described, but the fact that you're willing to tell her some difficult things.

I commend you for that. [00:30:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm sure it'll also be important for our friend here to say those things out loud to this woman, you know, just like for her own reasons, for her own closure.

Jordan Harbinger: Sure. Some of us need that. Look, even if this woman can't take them in and they're gonna go there separate ways, I imagine it would be pretty cathartic to say, yeah, so you hurt me in this and that way, and it's not cool.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I just gotta say, I do find it interesting that she told this friend a couple months ago that she wanted to share some things that were weighing heavily on her, and her friend was like, okay, let's talk in the fall. That's good for me. That kind of says a lot.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a really good point, Gabe. If you texted me saying, Hey, I wanna talk about some stuff that's weighing heavily on me, my reply would be like, okay, I am getting outta bed.

How's now or later today or tomorrow? 'cause I wanna hear you out. I wanna rectify the situation 'cause I will lose a lot of sleep over something like this. I can't just go on with my day. And it sounds like her friend Charlene or whatever over here is like, yeah. Let's circle back on this in Q3. When I get the capacity to focus on this, it just says so much.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think the takeaway here might be manage your [00:31:00] expectations with old Charlene.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I think you need to go into this conversation knowing that you might not get the response or outcome you're hoping for.

Gabriel Mizrahi: If what you're hoping for is for Charlene to go, oh my God, I had no idea I hurt you so much. I'm so sorry.

I need to go work on this. I need to be a better friend. Gimme another chance. I just don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, she might be able to take some of this in and hey, who knows? Maybe she'll break down crying and be like, I know it's all up front from my low self-esteem, but I dunno. Maybe some combination of her grief about her son and having an old friend tell her point blank that her behavior has been pretty awful.

Maybe that'll cut through some of the noise and she'll have to acknowledge some of that stuff. That would be a good outcome. I just do not think you should bank on it. So actually, I would try to let go of too many specific ideas about how this conversation should turn out and just focus primarily on sharing these things with your friend for your own reasons.

Those reasons, in my view, are going on record with your friend about this behavior, how it affected you, how it's impacted your friendship, giving her some crucial information about how she comes across, how she treats people, how that's shaping [00:32:00] a lot of her interactions and relationships, and honoring your own feelings and protecting yourself by speaking up about all this.

If you do that, I would probably consider this conversation successful. What she does with all this, how she responds, whether she changes, that's up to her. But even if she doesn't, I think it's still worth going on record.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I totally agree, Jordan. And one way you could say this is, look, we've been friends for 25 years.

I think you know that. I really value you. I value your humor, your energy, your presence. I've enjoyed spending all of these holidays together. I've also been reflecting on my friendships lately, and I've had a few realizations that I feel I owe it to you and also to myself to share. And just a heads up, you know, like some of what I'm about to say might not be the most fun to hear, and I'm sorry about that.

My goal is not to hurt you, but I hope you can take this in. I hope we can talk about it, and I think if we do, it might make us even closer. And then I would lay out your main observations that she tends to dominate conversations that she doesn't seem to take a demonstrable interest in you. That she's frequently rude to people, [00:33:00] including you, one of her oldest and most loyal friends that she got into this conflict with your son, that she says hurtful things in general, and how that makes you feel.

I would lay all of that out briefly, but directly. I wouldn't sugarcoat it, but you know, like don't go overboard either. Just present her with the facts. And then I would say something like, look, I want to be there for you during this tough time. I am so sorry that you lost your son. I really don't wanna abandon you here.

But the truth is, all of this behavior has been going on for decades long before what happened with your son. And I'm starting to realize that our friendship just has not been healthy for a very long time. So I'm sharing this with you so you know where I am right now, and I'm open to talking about this with you and understanding maybe where this is coming from.

Maybe there's something I'm missing, maybe there's something you wanna share with me. I can look at this in a new way and see if there's maybe a way forward for us. But in order to remain close, I would need you to really hear me out and look at this behavior. And I would need to know that you are earnestly gonna work on it, or I'm just not sure I can continue being close.

Jordan Harbinger: I like that. It's [00:34:00] honest, it's simple. It's non-combat. It's absolutely fair. You say something like that to somebody you've been close with for a quarter of a century. If they don't respond, at the very least by going, wow, I clearly needed to hear this. I'm really sorry. Please let me explain or gimme a chance to change, then that person is not a good friend and I would have zero regrets about bouncing at that point.

This conversation is a come to Jesus moment. Either this friend responds with humility and contrition and openness, or she doesn't, and if she doesn't, there's nothing left to say really. The fact that she lost her son. As tragic as that is, it's basically irrelevant. Okay. I know that sounds cold, but because frankly, look, it sounds like this woman has just, she's been a dick for years.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, brutal take, but I, I think you're right. That's right.

Jordan Harbinger: If she isn't a dick, she's a simmering pot of dick set to a low boil

Gabriel Mizrahi: on the induction stove of friendship. Yes, exactly. Those things are amazing. By the way, do you have, you have an induction stove, don't you?

Jordan Harbinger: We do. And I agree. They are indeed a miracle of modern science.

The fact that I can put my hand down on it, I could have a [00:35:00] baby crawling on half of it, and then another pan. Yeah, on another part of it, anywhere on it, not on a burge on it. Anywhere. It is heated to 200 degrees, three inches away, and it's mind boggling.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The baby's fine. I know my friend Victor has one here at the house, and I put a pot of oat milk down, and I walked away for a minute.

When I came back, it was boiling and frothing over. I'm just, how does this work? I don't know. Magnus. How do they work? Perfect soundbite. But anyway, sorry for that weird, uh, side about induction dose. But I agree with you. I would say that the only way that the loss of her son might be relevant here is if that tragedy has cracked this woman open in some way.

If losing her son has made her more vulnerable or more humble, or what I would hope is that it's made her more appreciative of the friends who have stuck with her. But I just cannot tell from this letter whether it has done that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I'm gonna go with not.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I do also find it interesting though, that they've both experienced big losses recently.

She lost her son, and our friend here lost her mom. And I wonder if that's something she could bring into this conversation. Like, look, [00:36:00] since I lost my mom, I have a new clarity about what matters to me in life, how I wanna treat people, how I wanna be treated, and I'm wondering if you feel the same.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I like that.

I don't know if Charlene is capable of that mindset, but I do like that. But who knows? Maybe hearing that out loud would be like an oh shit moment. Like I said, it can happen. Again, I would not get too attached to that result. Your goal here is to go on record with her, largely for yourself, and then give her a chance to show you what kind of person she is, how she responds in this conversation, or maybe in the period after.

That'll tell you everything you need to know. But my gut is telling me that you're probably done with Charlene. And when you get to that point with someone, you gotta be very disciplined and move on. People like this can be very hurtful, very exhausting, and more often than not, trying to make a friendship like this, fair and healthy is a waste of time, and I commend you for seeing that so clearly.

If that's the case, sending you and your son a big hug and wishing you all the best. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive [00:37:00] subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier if you're being retaliated against by a bitter meddlesome, gossipy subordinate at work.

Your ex is harassing, defrauding, and sex extorting you, or you're worried that your creepy relative might be a serial killer, whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, wee bit wiser, our newsletter every Wednesday almost.

It's a two minute read, very practical. I invite you to come check it out. Jordan harbinger.com/news is where you can find it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 37. My wife is 35. We've been married for 13 years and we have three kids, ages nine, three, and one. I've been working in my trade for about 15 years and have been a journeyman for 11, but I never really wanted to work in the trades.

It was always supposed to be a backup because I didn't know what I wanted to do. I make decent money, low six figures, and my wife doesn't work as we have both. Always wanted her to be home with the kids while they were [00:38:00] young, and she doesn't have any post-secondary education. So no real career prospects.

The problem is my income is no longer getting us by as the cost of living is increasing significantly faster than my wages. We live pretty simply. We bought our small bungalow house a little over five years ago when we had only one child. Both our vehicles are over 15 years old. We don't go out to eat often, and neither of us are big spenders.

But the money just seems to be pouring out of our accounts. And now we have approximately 15 grand in credit card debt.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, not fatal, but something to get on top of soon before it spirals outta control.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My mother-in-law's been living with us for the last two years due to her terrible taste in men. She has three divorces and some poor decision making on her part.

She has a very part-time job and only recently started contributing to the monthly bills. Ugh,

Jordan Harbinger: man. Fun. ABC sitcom you're living in, man. Ugh, geez.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Thankfully we have some small savings and a retirement and pension plan through my work. Ugh,

Jordan Harbinger: great. [00:39:00] What a gift.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I've tried to follow a few other career paths over the years, but nothing has worked out.

Last year I got licensed to do mortgages after a few friends said that it would be a good fit, but I've had a really hard time getting it started after getting my license and into a brokerage, I realized I might have bitten off more than I can chew. I love solving problems and working with people, and I'm good with math.

I'm not what you would call a go-getter. I struggle to push myself beyond the path of least resistance. That has been the story of my life, but I can't really afford to do that anymore. I'm still working full-time in the trades and have applied to at least a dozen out of town jobs in the last few months where I could make significantly more money, probably with a 50% boost to my income.

But I've had exactly zero responses. I'm now considering letting my mortgage license lapse as it costs $150 a month, plus another $500 a year to keep. But I've spent a significant amount of time and money getting licensed, and it feels like it would be an absolute [00:40:00] waste to let all of that go down the drain.

Do you think there's any way I can change my old habits or should I just throw in a towel on this potential new career and keep trying to find a better job in my current industry, signed a laid back journeyman, looking for a new way of earning fam when I can't tell if this is a worthy plan. Or I need to be more sturdy, man.

Okay. Good questions.

Jordan Harbinger: Questionable sign off.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You remember what I told you about the boat and the rocking? I think it's, that's right. Done a number on my sign-offs this week.

Jordan Harbinger: I think so. So first of all, man, I'm sorry you're going through this financial stress. I know how scary and intense it can be. I don't think you're in huge danger yet, but I'm glad that you want to get on top of this and climb out of this debt.

And I appreciate how determined you are to find new ways of making money to keep up with the rising costs and the fact that you're making low six figures from a career you didn't even really want. I think that speaks to your work ethic, man, your determination. I know those qualities will serve you well no matter what you do.

The other thing I wanna say is, I know this mortgage career hasn't worked out the way you'd hoped, but [00:41:00] I admire that you pursued something very different, and I love that you invested in yourself, you put yourself out there. I'm sure that took a lot of hard work and courage, and that could be a great asset to you.

Your challenge, which you seem to see very clearly, is that motivating yourself, switching gears, charting a new path before the momentum can carry you along. Sticking with it long enough to create that momentum that's hard for you. I appreciate how aware you are of that. That's half the battle, Gabe.

There's a part of me that doesn't really believe when people are like, oh, I'm the path, the least resistance kind of guy. Nah, you're not. You trained in a new career. You took on a trade you didn't really want because it was better for you long term. That's not path of least resistance. You just think that you're that guy right now because there's fear and you're listening to the fear you're not lazy.

Hmm. That's not what I'm hearing at all. Interesting. I think he's mislabeling himself as lazy or a path of least resistance. When there's uncertainty and maybe he's responding to fear. I, I just, I don't buy the lazy argument. I don't think so. It's not what I'm hearing at all. It would be different if you were like, I've been sponging off my [00:42:00] wife for the last 13 years and haven't managed to get a job.

I'm a path of least resistance kind of guy. Okay? Then I would buy it. His actions don't match his, the label. He's applied to himself here. So to answer your question, yes, of course there's a way to change your old habits. That's the beauty of being human. We can almost always change. We can rewrite our patterns, we can overcome our obstacles, but it takes a lot of hard work, diligence, commitment, and patience and just the right ratio of toughness and self-compassion.

And that is not easy, especially when you're working with patterns that are very old, like I assume some of these are. So I'm probably not gonna weigh in on whether you should throw in the towel on the mortgage career or keep trying to find a better job in the trades, because I don't actually think that's the right question right now.

The right question in my view is what's really going on beneath this lack of ambition? What is it about pushing yourself beyond what you are calling the path of least resistance? That's so hard. That's the question you need to answer, and it's not one we can necessarily answer for you. Maybe we can help you get somewhere in the neighborhood, [00:43:00] show you the right rock to turn over so you can look at the bugs underneath.

'cause I've struggled with the same thing at various points, right? When I, well, all of us do. I think, honestly, and what I found is that when we feel unmotivated, when we feel unambitious, when we wanna go with the flow, instead of charting a new path that would be better for us, it's almost always because we are avoiding something, we're avoiding certain feelings, we're avoiding an experience of the world, we're avoiding an experience of ourselves.

Something that's too distressing for us to tolerate. This is true of procrastinating on the small tasks, and this is true of avoiding the big tasks. It's not the tasks that we're avoiding, it's the feelings that the tasks stir up in us. So what you have to do is get clear on what thoughts and feelings this mortgage game is bringing up for you.

Again, I can't say for sure, but I'm gonna guess that this new industry brings up a few things. Vulnerability and trying your hand at a roll and an industry that is new to you. Putting yourself out there as a financial expert after working in the trades. Fear of doing it wrong, of struggling, of failing, [00:44:00] whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which probably also comes with a lot of confusion, I would imagine. I'm sure he's confused about the ins and outs of mortgages and you know, how do I drum up business and how do I spend my time when I'm still in the trades, but I wanna make this transition. Maybe even confusion about whether this new path is even really gonna pay off.

So is it even worth it?

Jordan Harbinger: Yep. And I think also probably some shame about how distressing and overwhelming all of those feelings can be for you. Like I said, I'm just guessing here, I'll let you identify the specific feelings, but if any of that hits home, that's because deep down we all share the same feelings.

And when we're resisting something, especially professionally, there are usually a few common culprits.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, totally. Well said. And then we will do almost anything to avoid those feelings, right? And so we get bored, quote unquote or lazy, quote unquote, or we go, oh, well I'll just do this thing here that I'm already doing, even though my heart's not in it and it's not making me enough money because it's just easier and I understand it already and it makes more sense.

So I'm just gonna be practical about this. But then.dot, we don't make any progress.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:00] Exactly. So I think that's your job now, to really identify those thoughts and feelings to confront the parts of you that get activated by trying your hand at something very different and putting yourself out there. And then this is the most important part.

To see what it's like to keep working away at this new career while feeling those feelings and build up your capacity to bear them. Bit of a theme on today's episode, but. Kind of on every Feedback Friday, to be honest. Until you do that, I think this mortgage pivot is gonna continue to frustrate you. And if you do do that, then you have a real shot at making this pivot work and building up these parts of you that you've been protecting by sticking with a career that's familiar, but ultimately unfulfilling.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. I think you nailed it, Jordan. That's exactly right. And by the way, I just wanna say I'm dealing with my own version of this right now with some new creative projects I'm working on. I know how hard this is, so I really feel for this guy. And the stakes for him are so high. Like he needs to take care of his family.

He wants to make sure his kids are okay, he has to climb out of debt. He probably wants to prove to himself that he can do this, that he can make a pivot like this into the mortgage world. And I get [00:46:00] why this matters so much and why it's so hard. But I think you're absolutely right, Jordan. And actually I think what you were getting at a moment ago when you were quibbling with his phrase about the path of least resistance, I think to frame this in terms of I'm not what you would call a go-getter.

I actually think that's kind of skating on the surface of the real issue here, right? He's chalking this up to some quality that he thinks is missing. It sounds to me like he believes that there are people who are ambitious and there are people who are not ambitious, and that's just how it is. And yeah, maybe that's true, but I think it's true.

Only up to a point. The reality is closer to what you're saying, Jordan, that there are people who build up the capacity to bear the injuries of trying to do something you don't know how to do yet and struggling. And there are people who cramp around them and avoid them, which I have done at various points in my life and still catch myself doing.

So ambition is definitely a real quality, but it's not the full story and it's probably not the thing that's holding him back.

Jordan Harbinger: I totally agree. And the path of least resistance, that's attractive to him because it's easier, but really it's just easier [00:47:00] because it's safer.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. But you know, I'm actually excited for him because yes, this is hard to rewrite and yes, it takes time and it takes work, but he's at a point of healthy desperation.

Like he said, he can't really afford to do this anymore, and that could be a very useful place to be

Jordan Harbinger: for sure. So my advice is give this a real go chip away at this mortgage game. While you feel these feelings, talk about them with your wife and your friends and a couple of trusted people, and then see what comes up.

You might give this a go and realize, you know what? Mortgages not for me. That's not my path. And if that's the case, it's a hundred percent okay to let your license lapse and pursue something that's more aligned for you. There's no shame in that, but you might also give this a go and realize, okay, this is my path.

It's just putting me in touch with my limitations. My inertia, my fear, it's making me confront new obstacles. And that's really hard for me, but I can learn to work with those in order to do this work. And if that's the conclusion you come to, I think you'll be really glad you didn't throw in the towel prematurely, because in all likelihood, you're gonna encounter these obstacles in [00:48:00] any field you pursue.

And what a lot of people do is they keep changing fields, hoping their results will change, when in reality what needs to change is their relationship with themselves. So I hope that gives you a way forward here, man. I'm excited for what's ahead. Either way. Good luck. You know it'll last longer than your dysfunctional mother-in-law's next marriage.

The discount codes on the fine products and services that support this show, we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by SimpliSafe. When I'm on the road for interviews, I hate the idea of leaving Jen and the kids alone at night. But the other thing giving me peace of mind is SimpliSafe.

It's not just another security camera that shows you what happened after the fact. It's more like having trained guards, keeping an eye on your house in real time, and I'm not exaggerating. There was a real life situation where an arsonist actually tried to set a family's house on fire, not mine. Of course, this is on the website, but SimpliSafe.

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It's so hard not to say home every single time. And when I say in-depth information, I'm talking [00:50:00] deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, student teacher ratio.

They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in one place. homes.com. We've done your homework. This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. World Mental Health Day was just last week.

So in the spirit of that important day, we wanted to continue to thank the amazing therapists all month long. If you've ever done therapy, it's the little moments that make the biggest impact, the right question, the safe space to unload or just feeling heard, those things really stick with you.

BetterHelp has helped over 5 million people worldwide by making therapy easy to access. They've got more than 30,000 licensed therapists. You fill out a short questionnaire, they handle the matching. If it doesn't click, you switch therapists anytime. For me, therapy is all about those small breakthroughs.

The moments where something finally clicks or you see a problem from a completely different angle. That's the stuff that changes everything, and it's why the right therapist makes a [00:51:00] huge difference. I talk with my BetterHelp therapist every week. It's been huge for me. If you haven't tried therapy before, BetterHelp is one of the easiest ways to start.

Jen Harbinger: This World Mental Health Day, we're celebrating the therapists who've helped millions of people take a step forward. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/jordan. That's betterhelp.com/jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment, support the amazing sponsors who make the show possible, all of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support this podcast, or searchable and clickable on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

And if that doesn't work, you can always email the team here at jordanharbinger.com. We're happy to dig up codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. All right, time for the recommendation of the week.

Lip Filla Clip: I am addicted [00:52:00] to lip filler.

Jordan Harbinger: My recommendation of the week is blue light blocking glasses.

I don't know why I didn't recommend this years ago. I've been using 'em for years. These are glasses that block the blue light spectrum that keeps your brain thinking it's daytime and causes eye fatigue and they're in every screen and everything you look at and every light in your house, basically. It also, according to a lot of science, prevents the production of melatonin, which tells your brain, Hey, time to sleep helps regulate your circadian rhythm.

So if you've ever found it hard to fall asleep after farting around on your phone, which a lot of us do, this is one reason why. And blue light also seems to increase the production of serotonin. And that's just kind of bad news all around. Again. I started wearing these things one to two hours before bed years ago, and I pass out so much faster now.

My aura ring sleep scores are higher as a result, back when I was still screwing around on my phone all the time and even to even now, 'cause let's admit it, we all do it. Occasionally I'll pass out with a phone in my hand, and I know you're looking at your phone even though you know you shouldn't be because we all do it.

And right [00:53:00] now the brand of blue light blockers I wear. Are called Suwanee, like the bird. They are a little bit more, what's the word? I guess, like fashion forward. You know, if you were at a late dinner and you wore these, nobody would be like, what the heck are you doing? I wear those when I'm out and about or doing something late at night.

There's also a pair that comes with fly kit if you're a, which is another sponsor of the show. So if you have a fly kit, there's a pair in there for the fly kit. Those are kind of more wraparound looking ones. I wear those in bed and so those recommendations for the pairs, I like, I'll drop those in the show notes.

They're not expensive folks. Get a decent pair because you don't wanna get a headache from cheaply made lenses, but you don't. They're not bananas. They're not like the same price as real glasses. Give them a go. You'll thank me later. You will definitely get in the habit of using these and falling asleep faster and sleep is priceless, so give it a shot.

Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show. If you wanna jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes or recommendations or other side conversation that's over on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. All right, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear [00:54:00] Jordan and Gabe, I'm 17 and I just started my senior year of high school.

I realized that I'm one of your youngest listeners, but I could use some guidance that might change my life and maybe speak to some other people too. I come from a medium sized town in the US and I'm eager to see more of the world. I like my state. Okay, and I love my family, but there's so much more out there.

Hearing you guys talk about your travels recently has gotten me pumped to hit the road backpack, put myself in uncomfortable situations and grow basically. But I'm also getting pressure from friends, teachers, and family to do the traditional thing and apply to colleges. This fall, I wanna go to college too.

I'm just not sure which path I should prioritize. Should I travel before or after college? Does it matter if I wait? Will I be too late? And do you have any other advice for me as I try to broaden my horizons and see the world signed? Looking for some feedback about when to take up the knapsack. And finally hit the road jock when I'm facing two very different tracks.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:55:00] Yeah, good question. And very close to my heart, obviously. So first of all, I love your spirit. I love your curiosity. The fact that you already feel this call to go traveling, that tells me, A, you definitely have to do it. And B, you're gonna get a lot out of this experience. Honestly, middle aged me is envious and super excited for you going to high school in East Germany.

When I was your age, man, that was one of the defining experiences of my life. It put me on a very unique path that's been super rewarding. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done. I don't think I'd be the same person if I hadn't done it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, you definitely wouldn't have that haircut, I'll tell you that much.

Or you also would not talk about European windows as much as you do. So it's really changed your life. My window

Jordan Harbinger: expertise level would be, I would be a window white belt, for sure. Facts, baby. So look, I don't think if you wait a couple years to travel, it's gonna be too late. It's never too late to travel.

You'll still have a rich experience, especially at your age. You'll also have 300 grand in student debt. So there's that. And man, I'll tell you, just from my own life experience, every five year period that goes [00:56:00] by, the level of complication in my life goes up. It's like when you're at high school, you're like, I don't have anything I gotta do.

Well, I kind of need to go to college at some point. And then you're like, oh, life's tough. And then five years after that you're like, oh, I graduated college. I need to get a job 'cause I have debt. And then you get into your career and five years into there you're like, I can't leave. I'm managing a bunch of really important projects for this career.

And the next step for me is right around the corner. And then five years after that you're like, I basically manage this place. There's no getting around it. I'm right about to make partner slash have just made partner and I've got a baby on the way. Right? And then it's like, I can't do shit. I got kids now.

What are you talking about? I got kids under five and then it's kids under 10 and then it's aging parents. And you know, like your life will not get easier. As time goes on, probably until you're retired, and that's a long time from now, Mr. 17-year-old. So the longer you wait, the more frustrated you might become that you're not exploring this thing that really matters to you.

And the higher opportunity costs will also be, for example, you take a gap year and you travel at age 17, [00:57:00] 18, whatever, or you get into college and you defer for a year and then you go traveling. Not a big opportunity cost. You're just starting that chapter a year later at a point in your life where statistically speaking, you still have a ton of time at your age.

That's not a big deal. But going to college for four years and then taking a year off to travel still definitely an option. Not a mistake by any means, but it does change the equation. First of all, it means you're spending four years in a classroom and then seeing the world. I can see upsides and downsides to that.

It depends on what kind of person you are. Like would it be hard for you to sit in a classroom for four years and just feel like you haven't scratched that itch? Would school be boring or confusing or irrelevant or less rich without that experience? Or would you enjoy learning in a classroom and then taking everything you learn out into the world?

Do you feel like there are books you really wanna read and ideas you really wanna understand before you hit the road? Or do you just wanna learn things on the road and then bring them back into your education? I am sort of that guy, like I wish I'd traveled way more before going to [00:58:00] college. I probably would've picked a different major and done things differently.

But again, there's no right way. The order you do this is going to change your experience and you're steering a ship. If you change your course five degrees at Homeport where you are right now, you're gonna end up in a vastly different place in five or even 10 years. So my take, honestly, traveling before you go to school, it's gonna make you way more interesting, way more mature.

I'm a personally a big fan of that idea. Another thing, if you travel after college, you won't be entering the job market right after school when a lot of companies are recruiting. Maybe they're recruiting from your school. And then you'll have to explain to hiring managers what you did for that year, which like, maybe they get it and find it interesting, maybe they don't.

At the very least, you'll have to craft a good story. Again, not a mistake, just a different equation. There's also a practical element to this. Do you have the money to travel right now? If so, sure. Awesome. Maybe now's your moment. If you have to work for a while to earn the money, maybe you work while you're in school and you save, and then you hit the road.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I would also stay open to a few different [00:59:00] versions of this. You know, to go back to that George Saunders idea I shared a few weeks ago, this choice probably is not as binary as you think. You don't have to choose between traveling now or traveling later, and that's it. You could do, I don't know, a short trip the summer before college.

Dip your toe in the travel water, see if you wanna do more of it, and then you could travel again during your summers or after you graduate. Or you could go to college for two years, take a year off to travel, come back and finish up. You could go straight to college and get a job and then see if you can defer your start date on that job and then travel.

Then there are so many ways that this could go, or you could do some combination of all of those things. So your best bet is probably to just generate lots of different opportunities for yourself and then see which dots you want to connect. So one good strategy and nice way to mitigate your risk is just apply to colleges regardless.

See where you get in. See if the ones that you actually want to go to will let you defer. And then you can make that choice at that point. Or maybe you look into like work travel experiences and see if you find a program that's speaking to you more than school is right now, and that's your move. They're just, [01:00:00] there's so many versions of this.

Don't get too locked into this idea that it's one or the other.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. Also, it's really easy to agonize about these choices in the abstract, but if you give yourself lots of options, then the choices, it usually just becomes a lot easier.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: But Gabe, you're a resident nomad these days. You're the one getting seasick on the Baltic Sea.

What do you think before college, after college,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was just sitting here thinking about the first time I went traveling without my family. I was 21, I think I had just gotten a job offer for after college so that the whole thing was squared away. And then my childhood friend Michael and I went backpacking through Costa Rica, Guatemala, and Belize for three weeks, and it was.

Amazing. I did not really have the itch to travel before then. I don't think I knew anyone actually who had done that kind of travel, like the backpacking thing before. But if I had, I'm sure traveling even earlier only would've added to my life. It is such a gift to see the world as early as possible and open yourself up to new influences early on, and yeah, get comfortable being in these uncomfortable situations and then come back to your life and you just [01:01:00] have so much more to bring to it.

So I'm with you, Jordan. I don't think that there's one right way to do it. I think everybody has to find their own path, but if he is being called to this kind of travel and he goes and does it, it's gonna put him light years beyond his peers in terms of curiosity and confidence and worldview. But I just don't think that anyone needs to be on one timeline to enjoy travel.

It's rewarding at every age, although I will say one big advantage to traveling when you're younger. Please don't torture yourself thinking that you need to do it on one timeline to get it right. I travel is rewarding at every age, and it's gonna always be available to you. Although I will say one huge advantage to traveling, when you're really young, you're willing to travel much more cheaply and you're willing to put up with way worse situations, and that can be a huge advantage because there are some great experiences if you're willing to be uncomfortable,

Jordan Harbinger: oh man.

Can confirm you hit an age where you just will not stay in a hostel anymore. Exactly. And it might even be

Gabriel Mizrahi: creepy if you did. Yeah. Or if you do, you're like, oh, I'll just, I'll get the private room with the private bathroom, but then you're not [01:02:00] hanging out and drinking forties with all the other kids and having that experience, which is kinda the whole point of staying at a youth hostel.

Jordan Harbinger: The other point is pretending to be asleep on the top bunk while two Eastern Europeans go at it like Reese's Maccas on the bottom bunk. That is a rite of passage

Gabriel Mizrahi: right there. Yes. Everybody should enjoy that experience at least once in their lives.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. At a certain point you're like, I'm just, yeah, I'm not doing this.

I'm staying at a proper hotel with a queen. Air conditioning a mattress that doesn't smell like a bell. Rushing tourist's feet after hiking Machu Picchu.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. And that of course is gonna cost you six times as much. That's right. So that is money that you are not spending on, you know, that spontaneous side quest, Mo Petra boat, adventure, whatever.

Whatever you get into on your travels.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And then you're not walking the hour and 15 minutes to the Buddhist temple or whatever because you value your time too much and your knees hurt. So you hire a taxi to take you and you miss that whole experience. It's not that you

Gabriel Mizrahi: can't do that stuff in your thirties or forties or beyond that.

You just kind of have to force yourself to do those things. And you have to consciously increase your capacity for discomfort slash resist the urge to dodge that discomfort with money, [01:03:00] which I can tell you firsthand, very hard to do as an adult. It's so true. You just don't wanna do it.

Jordan Harbinger: It's so true.

There's something to be said for traveling while you're too young and poor, to realize that the whole experience is actually kind of unpleasant. Which a lot of rugged travel is, but that's the price of admission for an experience that is so rich, but sometimes it's only rich for a certain period of your life.

I have to say, that's one of the reasons I love Wayfinders, the group I plugged on the show a couple months back because. Mike who runs it, does a really good job of being like, I know you guys are all rich business owner dbags, but we're staying on riverboats tonight. And you're like, what? Okay. And then it's like, all right, we're staying in Yurts in the desert.

And then you're like, okay. And by the time you're like, what fresh hell does he have for us? He's like, we're staying at a Fourstar Riverside huts with massages and chef cooked meals. And we're like, thank you. And like, everyone hits the hot tub and then he is like, tomorrow we're hiking up a mountain at four o'clock in the morning, so don't drink too much.

You know, it's, it's, he does a really good job of balancing all that stuff and, and since you don't have a choice, 'cause he's running it, you get to do that unpleasant part and get the [01:04:00] rewards out of it and then, you know, take a real shower afterwards.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's very obvious to me that you are gonna travel, my friend, and it's up to you to decide when you wanna listen to that call and when you wanna make it happen for yourself.

The best advice I can give you is just sit with this question, talk to people you trust about it, including some older people, ideally people who have traveled like this. Then do something that can be really hard to do at 17 years old, which is to get very quiet with yourself and just see what your heart is telling you to do at a stage in your life when you can really afford to listen to your heart.

The opportunity costs are about as low as they can get for you at your age, so you can probably afford to listen to your heart as long as you're smart about it. And speaking of being smart about it, the last piece of advice I would give you is just try to be very intentional about your travel. I wouldn't waste too much time, you know, sitting on beaches or drinking for the sake of drinking or spending time with people who don't add to your life or having the same experience over and over again in different countries.

These are all very common pitfalls. I'm not saying there isn't like a role for [01:05:00] serendipity and just sometimes a funny night out is exactly what you need. I'm, I'm not saying don't have those things, but just keep checking in with yourself and make sure that all of it is meaningful. Have stimulating conversations.

Read good books. Look for the meaningful experiences, the unique experiences. Stick with the people who elevate you, who expand you, and I don't know, maybe learn a language or a skill along the way, and just make sure that you're always growing. If you are and you're having fun, then maybe you keep going.

And if you're not, then hey, maybe it's time for a vibe shift. You know, it's time to come home and begin a new chapter, which might coincide really nicely with college. If you do all of that, I think these travels are gonna be really rewarding. And then the earlier you get 'em, the more they're gonna pay off.

Jordan Harbinger: Amen, Gabe, totally agree. But also, and this is for everyone else listening right now, there's no magical window where you can travel and then it closes. It's a beautiful thing to do at any age, but the types of experiences you tend to have, the timeframe in which you get to fully enjoy them and apply them to the rest of your life, that does change.

But the world is always out there and we gotta enjoy it however [01:06:00] we can. Also, one final piece of advice, you're gonna meet a lot of amazing people on your travels and one of the best ways to make this period pay off is to keep in touch with the people that you do meet. You know, I have a bunch of lifelong friends that I've met on my travels, and it's all because of the six minute networking type stuff that, the early proto version of that, if you go to six minute networking.com, you know the spiel.

I really did put a lot of this into action before I codified it, but a lot of backpackers, we meet amazing people and then, you know, you never drop 'em a WhatsApp message or a voice note and you know, you move on in these potentially life-changing connections. They just wither on the vine. Plus investing in the people you meet.

It's also a great way to meet even more people, have even richer experiences and even more places. So really this is a crucial part of a good traveler's toolkit. It sounds like that's what you did, Gabe, with this guy, Victor, you mentioned, and, and now look at you sleeping on his dining room floor 15 years later, meeting his kids, getting to enjoy Stockholm in this unique way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I mean, I actually, you're so right because there's a world where we just went our separate ways and never enjoy this friendship [01:07:00] beyond that time in college. But yeah, you gotta put in a little work, it totally pays off.

Jordan Harbinger: And that's yet another way to capitalize on this experience and not just reduce the opportunity cost, but actually make these travels, pay dividends for kind of the rest of your life.

Just that extra, you know, 10% of admin can make all the difference in the world. I'm excited for you, friend. I hope you have an incredible time and good luck. Go back and listen to James Kimmel on the Science of Revenge and Kashmir Hill on why AI chatbots are driving some people literally insane. Also, our Feedback Friday bonus episode on Wednesday, in case you missed Feedback Friday, last Friday due to the error in the feed and our Skeptical Sunday on penis size.

If you haven't done so yet, it's a girthy episode. Show notes and transcripts@jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers discounts, ways to support the show all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi.

This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian [01:08:00] Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. Yes, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show.

Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

We worry about secret societies online, but the real danger may be hiding in trusted institutions that we see every day.

JHS Clip: I'm a financial reporter by background. I basically fell into this rabbit hole, and so I began to. And this Spanish priest called Jose Maria Riva dreamed up this kind of group, which called itself, which is Latin for the work of God.

He saw his followers as part of this hidden militia that would infiltrate society and use their positions there to basically push society in the right direction. And he literally tasked them with [01:09:00] infiltrating government business, the world of education, becoming journalists and kind of using their positions there to be this gorilla reactionary force.

The thing that makes this so much worse is that this is an organization which has been legitimized by the Catholic church. It has the stamp of approval from the pulp, from the Vatican. The way that Opus Dei operates is that it's using scripture to push back on anything progressive and for anything kind of left-leaning, and it's a misuse of religion really.

I think the vast majority of Office Day members, they don't have a clue about this human trafficking and the way that you know, certain members are being drugged. Labor trafficking, I mean grooming of children, all kinds of kind of financial fraud and spiritual fraud as well. All of these abuses going on, I think they would be absolutely horrified to find out what is going on inside the organization.

They have thousands of members. The network runs far and wide assets in the billions. Anyone that isn't part of Opus Dei is an [01:10:00] enemy of Christ.

Jordan Harbinger: Gareth Gore uncovers how Opus Dei built a global empire of secrecy. And why dismantling it might be the fight of our time. Check it out on episode 1170 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.