1281: Can Your Love Be Blind to Her Conspiracy Mind? | Feedback Friday

1281: Can Your Love Be Blind to Her Conspiracy Mind? | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback, Friday producer, the UGG boots keeping my frozen tootsies warm as we trudge through this tundra of life conundrum. Gabriel Mizrahi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I like that one. Nice to mix in some cold metaphors. I feel like it's usually hot.

Jordan Harbinger: Dumpster fire. Hellscape. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Not today. No, no. Today we're, we're chilly.

Jordan Harbinger: Today, it's an arctic wasteland.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, a glacial expanse. Today we need a jacket.

Jordan Harbinger: I got it. A fur-lined parka and some long underwear. That's right. That's how ice cold the doozies are gonna be today or so I assume. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, rocket scientists, generals, jihadis, drug traffickers. This week we had Cory Doctorow, author of Enshittification: [00:01:00] Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and What to Do About It.

It's a hard cover right there. Haven't enshittified those yet. Well, uh, debatable. We talked about how tech companies are making their products and life more generally worse for all of us in order to make more money and of course what we can do about it. We also did a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on the Gold Standard.

On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, the ones we can use without being sued. Anyway, and compare me and Gabe's ramble through life's big questions to an Antarctic walkabout. So Gabe, before we dive in, funny thing, I was scrolling the Grammy the other day and I came across this local news segment about how Gen Z has their own Karen now.

Like they have their own name for what millennials call a Karen, and that name is Jessica.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, I heard about this actually. Hilarious.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: It made me laugh pretty hard. 'cause for, for a while there, that was my go-to annoying girl name here on the show by just pure coincidence.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And then we got a bunch of emails saying, Hey, my name is Jessica.

Can you please stop using my [00:02:00] name whenever you need a character and a story who's annoying? And then we changed it up.

Jordan Harbinger: We changed it up. I'm happy to do that, but apparently now it's official. Jessica is the new Karen and it was not my fault, I swear.

Gabriel Mizrahi: To be fair, asking us not to use the name Jessica. To describe a Jessica.

Such a

Jordan Harbinger: Jessica. You know, that's a good point. Maybe we should just go back to using Jessica. It's not our fault guys. The whole generation decided. We don't make the rules.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So do we know why Jessica is the new name now or is it just arbitrary?

Jordan Harbinger: So they talked about this a little on this segment and part of it is that Jessica is obviously a very popular girl's name among millennials, but it's also because both Jessica and Karen have that K sound.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was about to say. Yeah, the hard consonant. Yeah, the K. It's funny.

Jordan Harbinger: The hard consonant, it just makes it funnier, right? You can't say like it's an Angela. It doesn't slap as hard hitting that K.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You do love Angela though.

Jordan Harbinger: I do love Angela. I, there's the only one I could think of. Yeah, I don't know if you said Beatrice.

Actually, that could work too. I mean, it's just,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but Anna, not as funny,

Jordan Harbinger: not as funny.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Hitting the K just slaps for some reason.

Jordan Harbinger: It does. It's an interesting example of how certain sounds and language can create an [00:03:00] instant punchline.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, totally. Same with movies. You know those hard consonants usually make for good movie titles.

Jordan Harbinger: That's true. Yeah. It's just, I dunno, more evocative or something. Anyway, I just had to share that with you guys. No shade on Jessica's. We love you guys. It's not your fault, I feel for you. Just like I felt for and feel for Karens who aren't annoying, both of you. And so it's arbitrary. It's so arbitrary and ridiculous.

But it did make me laugh. 'cause it, man, it's such a thing on the show and here it is. It's like official now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: By the way, I was chatting with one of our listeners, Madeline, and we were talking about the whole Karen thing and she asked an interesting question. She goes, is there an equivalent male name? Like is there a male equivalent to Karen?

Jordan Harbinger: Not really.

Gabriel Mizrahi: They say it's Kevin, but nobody's like, you're such a Kevin. I've never heard anyone say that.

Jordan Harbinger: No, that's people trying to make it a thing like, oh, it, it sounds kind of like Karen, let's make it the male version. It doesn't work. Also, you know what I mean? Now we're turning this into a serious conversation, unintentionally, I suppose.

But there is no male equivalent, and it's not because guys don't [00:04:00] do annoying things or wanna talk to the manager. I mean, maybe guys are more likely to just mouth off or start violence instead of talking to the manager, but it's because. Women are punished more for doing that kind of thing. Mm. That's part of what makes it quote unquote annoying is it's considered probably masculine behavior to like stand up for yourself and demand something.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Facts.

Jordan Harbinger: That's the problem. Like society, if a guy's like, Hey, this isn't what I ordered, or This isn't what I wanted, you said this, and you get something, they'd be like, oh, I'm sorry sir. And you'd be like, yeah, let let the manager handle it. Or can I speak with the manager? That's a totally appropriate response.

If a woman does it that exact same thing, people are like, Ugh, what a Karen.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There's a bit of an archetype with the haircut and the whole aesthetic there is, and the look of that, and there is such an equivalent with certain men as well. There is like a, I don't know if it's a buzz cut or a certain, like a kind of polo shirt or whatever, but

Jordan Harbinger: yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: you're right.

There might be some. Subtle misogyny baked into the very idea [00:05:00] of the Karen.

Jordan Harbinger: There is and, and everyone, listen, y'all know me. I'm not the guy who's like, there's subtle systemic misogyny everywhere you look and I'm trying to like dig up stuff. It's just really obvious that women are punished by for certain behaviors that guys are not and this is one of those things.

Absolutely.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So interesting. I didn't even think about that. Yeah, but you're making a very good point anyway. Speaking of consonants and hard things,

Jordan Harbinger: shall we dive into the dos?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's get it.

Jordan Harbinger: What's the first thing out of the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I met a woman through a dating app. I'm in la, she's in New York, but visiting LA soon, we've chatted over the phone.

We have the same ethnicity in religion. Not a total deal breaker for me, but preferred while chatting for four hours the other night, I discovered she believes in pretty much every conspiracy theory under the sun. Including that one about Wayfair being a cover for child sex slavery.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I covered that one.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I had not heard about this one until this letter actually.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it might have been on Skeptical Sunday. It must have been a Skeptical Sunday, honestly. So Wayfair, for anybody who doesn't know it's a [00:06:00] furniture website, and if I recall correctly, some Reddit users, this is years ago, notice that certain products on Wayfair had girls' names.

Were listed for like over 10 grand. So it'd be a chest of drawers and it would be named, I don't know, Catherine. And they're like, oh my God,

Gabriel Mizrahi: are you sure they weren't called Jessica?

Jordan Harbinger: I was gonna use that name. And then I thought, I'm just gonna muck everything up. So people started saying that this was way too high for furniture, and the products were clearly they had to be named after missing women or children.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is so nutty

Jordan Harbinger: dumb.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And apparently this started in a Q Anon community. I read,

Jordan Harbinger: of course it did. Where do you find people with a low enough number of brain cells to come to these conclusions and agree with them? It's insane.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, I started laughing when I was reading up on this. So these people believe that humans are being trafficked out in the open right next to quirky bookshelves.

Seems like an odd venue for that, but okay.

Jordan Harbinger: It's one of those things where you have to believe. Two things at the same time about conspiracies. Like everyone doing it is so advanced and it's a secret cabal. Also, they use plain English on websites that your [00:07:00] crazy Uncle Frank who's up till 4:00 AM smoking weed that he grew in his backyard, spots it and posts it on Twitter and everyone can see it.

So it's like you just really have to believe that this conspiracy is one international, two run by all these super powerful people. And three. They're so dumb that they can't hide it. And it's so obvious to anybody who looks, I mean, none of it makes sense. To be fair though, Wayfair does have a lot of experience with logistics, you know, moving things around.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's true. Yeah. Plus they allow returns, so

Jordan Harbinger: they do return. Child would not stop crying. Demanded food and water. High maintenance, one star

Gabriel Mizrahi: assembly was impossible. Took three times as long.

Jordan Harbinger: Dark, dark.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Anyway, Wayfair had to vehemently deny the allegations, which is so absurd. And my understanding is they actually renamed the products and then gave more detailed descriptions of them so people would not be confused, quote unquote, confused.

Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I can you imagine being the marketing person who had to got this assignment on like a Monday morning. So have you seen the week Twitter over the weekend? Yeah. Um, so we're [00:08:00] gonna need you to read, right? Instead of nightstand, it has to say definitely not a child from Albuquerque, just a set of drawers.

Gabriel Mizrahi: These people met. Sometimes Engineered Wood Media Center is just engineered Wood Media Center. Yes. Like it doesn't require much more than that.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, here's the thing, guys. Full disclosure, I have to poke holes in this conspiracy theory because Wayfair is a sponsor of the show and the Master of Puppets is pulling on my strings.

They're insisting that I distract everyone from their crimes against humanity.

Gabriel Mizrahi: A mission accomplished. Good little puppet.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So our friend goes on. Also, the moon landing was fake.

Jordan Harbinger: Huh?

Gabriel Mizrahi: She wouldn't say the earth is flat, but she did say that it's quote unquote, definitely not round.

Jordan Harbinger: You know what any astronomer would tell you that it's not perfectly round.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The earth is a trapezoid. Everybody knows that.

Jordan Harbinger: I don't know. I hear the science is still out in that. It could be a rhombus. Yeah, I'm an avowed rom bite. Anyway, ridiculous. [00:09:00] The whole thing is ridiculous,

Gabriel Mizrahi: needless to say. I think all of that is not only complete horse shit, but also that people who believe it are, for lack of a better term, stupid,

Jordan Harbinger: if I'm being empathetic.

I'd say they're scared and confused and these conspiracies make them feel in control.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That was really cute and nice. But

Jordan Harbinger: yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: If you were being yourself, what would you

Jordan Harbinger: say? Yeah, if I'm being Jordan Harbinger, which I will do right now, I'd say you're right. They're dumb as hell. There's no getting around it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And I basically told her as much as gently as possible. She actually asked if I thought she was stupid for believing it, which I kind of appreciated.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, bonus points for self-awareness, I guess. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My first instinct is to run for the hills, but I think I might at least hang with her while she's in town and get an in-person vibe.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Well, my first instinct is to run, but she's hot, so she's too, you know. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The attractive to Looney tune ratio is unfortunately real.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And they share a background and he thinks there's something there. But I mean, I too, if I was also like, [00:10:00] well, we're both Zoroastrian, like the number of people that you can meet is limited.

Correct. Okay. So

Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: NYC to la you live across the country and I don't know, I kinda get it. That's not gonna get you over this hump, my man. Uh, speaking of humps, have fun with that, but uh, don't put a ring on it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Put a nuva ring on it. Maybe.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. That's right. Or just stay away. You know that phrase, never stick your dick in crazy.

Yeah. This is never stick your Q-tip in Q anon

Gabriel Mizrahi: instant classic. I love it. I do wonder how early in the four hour FaceTime they had she brought up the flat earth thing, or was it like in the last 15 minutes. But

Jordan Harbinger: isn't it amazing we can talk across the country? Yeah. It bounces the signal off satellites that go around the globe.

The globe. You say,

Gabriel Mizrahi: you mean the curved piece of paper on which God scribbled his plans for the world?

Jordan Harbinger: That one?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes,

Jordan Harbinger: that one. That one. Yeah. How does satellites work? Oh, you know, something, something. The Jews, I mean, I dunno how they, how do they explain that? [00:11:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's why they're so busy. That's right. Anyway, it goes on.

But imagine having kids and one wants to vaccinate them while the other thinks vaccines cause autism.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or you wanna let your kids use fluoride toothpaste, but Oh no. The government controls your mind with fluoride. I think I just answered my own question.

Jordan Harbinger: Great. Yeah. All right. Q2. No, uh, done.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Moving on my man.

Yeah. Open. And

Jordan Harbinger: my friend is going through this right now. His wife is a health influencer and they have huge differences in how to raise the kids. So unfortunately he let it go 'cause he didn't feel that strongly about it. He was kinda like, oh, it doesn't matter. I'm just gonna let her have her way. And I was like, no, you don't understand.

Measles is real, dude. Anyway, he basically just gave up. He didn't wanna be in conflict with her, but now they have babies that don't have vaccines and they have all these unspecified health problems. It's not because of the vaccination stuff. I don't know. I mean, I don't have the details, but I think they also didn't get all their other kinds of like medical care that you [00:12:00] get for kids that you have to get for kids or that you really should get for kids.

I don't ask him the details 'cause I don't want to get into it, but it's very curious that a health influencer has super unhealthy kids and has forwent a lot of important things that you should do when you have kids.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Can two people who essentially have a different view of reality have a long-term relationship.

How much latitude do I give to a gal who doesn't believe in longitudes?

Jordan Harbinger: I think you could tell. My strong feeling is that no two people who have fundamentally different views of reality, they can't have a long-term relationship, or not a truly successful one anyway. Not without avoiding some big topics and just pretending that this isn't a huge issue.

This is not, you know, I'm a Democrat and she's a Republican, or she likes to eat vegetarian most of the time. That stuff is a big challenge for a couple too, but I think there's ways to make that kind of stuff work if both sides agree on core values. If they can have reasonable and respectful debates, they're not super entrenched and identified with their positions.

[00:13:00] This is on the other hand. I believe in basic science and you don't believe in basic science. This is, I believe in math and physics, and you just don't, and you don't have an alternative explanation. You just don't believe in these things.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I believe Wayfair is a place to buy a shower curtain. And you don't,

Jordan Harbinger: right?

Well, or I believe Wayfair is a place to buy a shower curtain too. You can also buy smuggled children from Albuquerque or Modesto for that matter. You know

Gabriel Mizrahi: what, that's a start. That could work. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, you're, you're gonna be like, honey, I'm gonna buy a wine rack. And she's gonna be like, no, we might get a Ukrainian girl by mistake.

So, I don't know. As far, so, as far as, as far as dumb conspiracies theories go, these are by far the dumbest man. Yeah. She's not talking about the JFK assassination or the COVID lab leak theory. Boeing whistleblower death stuff. Those are examples of conspiracies that are kind of all right. I don't wanna say I believe in them completely or whatever that people should, but they, they fall into the category of, huh.

There's some interesting [00:14:00] evidence. Not enough to say for sure, but we can't entirely dismiss them. I've talked about this on the show. I am not a diehard lab leak theory person. I'm not super conspiratorial by nature at all, obviously. I don't think we can just 100% dismiss that possibility anymore. There's a double digit percentage chance that that's just what happened.

And it kind of makes sense. The Boeing one, I don't know. I haven't read deeply about it could be a coincidence. It probably is, but yeah, it's a little suss. There's something there that's like Jen, my wife thinks all sports or professional sports, the big game, she thinks they're rigged.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting,

Jordan Harbinger: not rigged outright and that everyone's in on it, but like that maybe refs push people or that players throw games.

And we sort of found out that that's true. I mean, we did an episode about that,

Gabriel Mizrahi: and I've heard this from a lot of people. I mean, people think the refs in NBA are

Jordan Harbinger: yes,

Gabriel Mizrahi: corrupt.

Jordan Harbinger: That's mostly what she's talking about. I mean, we don't watch sports. But we'll watch the playoffs. And she's like, do the refs not have access to all the same video footage that we have?

And it's like, Nope. They're just making these calls. And it's like, I dunno. So that's, there's stuff where reasonable people come up with theories, and maybe they're not true, or they believe things that are a [00:15:00] little conspiratorial. But Wayfair selling children online, the earth isn't round. I mean, this is just the dumbest of the dumb conspiracies.

It's bottom of the barrel bs. That's so easily disproven is just laughable.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. It's like the Twinkies of conspiracy theories. Just empty calories. Yes. That you don't have to think about at all in order to enjoy

Jordan Harbinger: these theories. Which can you even call them that? I mean, they attract the most gullible tribal, low intelligence, low IQ people out there, period.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which is ironic because they're also the hardest to believe. But

Jordan Harbinger: I guess

Gabriel Mizrahi: that's,

Jordan Harbinger: that's a assuming that's a good point to a person with a decent iq. Yeah. But I guess that is my point. Just think about the level of intelligence. Or maybe the degree of almost like low key mental illness required to believe in this day and age that the dang earth is flat.

A sixth grader can perform an experiment that disproves this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Honestly, it's terrifying. Yes. If you really stop and think about it,

Jordan Harbinger: it's terrifying that these people have the right to vote as well, and they do exercise it at some point. I mean, it's enough to give you the goosebumps. Look, the only thing that might make this [00:16:00] work is if this woman is somewhat flexible in her beliefs, somewhat open to accommodating other evidence.

I mean, a lot of people who believe silly conspiracy stuff, they can be talked to because they will believe anything. So you just show them science and they're like, oh, okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's the best version of this.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's the best version of this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But if she were that kind of person, would she have fallen for this stuff in the first place?

I don't know

Jordan Harbinger: exactly. So yeah, look, it's already doomed if she's already been sucked into the flat earth funnel, that just really says so much about her and her level of reasoning. I don't know that you're gonna be able to fix that or why you'd even want to try.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel like if I had to sit down with somebody and deprogram them from flat Earth, it would already be over for me.

Like I don't know if I could be attracted to somebody who had to be talked down from that particular ledge.

Jordan Harbinger: Same look. There's not enough Cialis in all of the CVS pharmacies in all of California to compensate for that boner killer. But that's true. You gotta decide what you can live with, man. This is just us.

Yeah, sadly, I don't have high hopes. 'cause this [00:17:00] isn't just about believing some out there stuff. It's about the values and skills and just general awareness that those beliefs imply. That's the deeper problem.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We've talked in the past about how to talk to a conspiracy theorist. To your point, Jordan, most people who fall for this stuff, it's not just that they're dumb, although, mm-hmm.

That does seem to be very common. Some of them, by the way, might even be above average in intelligence. I, I guess those people exist, but it's really that they are vulnerable. That's the problem.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. They're vulnerable because they're anxious to an almost pathological degree, or they're scared, or they're confused, or they feel outta control, or they feel the world's outta control.

This is all, that's all very common,

Gabriel Mizrahi: or they feel alienated. They feel misunderstood.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And that is a dangerous cocktail. And believing in the conspiracy. Gives them a sense of, you name it, control, safety, or belonging. And if you look at the world as so many people do, and you go, man, this is scary.

There's all this dark stuff happening. I don't trust the people in charge. I don't understand it. It doesn't make sense. And then you find a community that goes, look, [00:18:00] it can all be explained by this really simple idea that you just happen to be able to wrap your head around. That can be really comforting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep. And then you have all these new friends who believe the idea too. And I think that's also comforting

Jordan Harbinger: for sure. I would not be surprised if this woman had some of those qualities. And if you wanted to, you could try to suss those out and learn more about them and validate them and try to help her see what role these conspiracy theories are playing for her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. But that's a big lift, man. And I'm not, I'm not sure it's your job, to be

Jordan Harbinger: honest. No, no. Look, if this was your sister, I would take the time to do it. Your cousin. Sure.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: Your best friend growing up. Sure. Some gal that lives across the country that you met on a dating app. Why bother my dude? Why?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, he might have his reasons, but I don't know if it's worth his time.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, I think we all kind of know the reasons, but like you don't have to do that much to anyway. Uh, and most of these people, they tend to be pretty defensive and they can be pretty dug in. So my guess is you're gonna have to invest a lot of time to maybe make some progress when you really could be spending that [00:19:00] time with someone who you know isn't a kook.

Look, if you wanna have a fling, if you guys get along at a certain level and that's interesting, what's the harm again? Be safe. Take precautions. Don't get too involved with somebody like this, at least until you learn more, but this conspiracy thing, this will become an issue eventually. We're gonna link to a bunch of episodes we've done on talking to conspiracy theorists, how these people think, why people fall for kooky stuff.

All that's gonna be in the show notes for you. I'd give those a listen and go from there. She's probably not your gal, but it's great to learn this stuff early on, like this is good to find out now and good luck. You know what's locked up in a shipping container with your name on it right now. The fine products and services that support this show, we'll be right back.

This episode is sponsored in part by Dell and AMD. Most of us don't think about cybersecurity until something breaks. Your power goes out, a system locks up, or somebody says, Hey, this isn't supposed to be happening. The Cybersecurity Tapes starts right there in that uncomfortable moment before [00:20:00] anyone realizes how bad things might get.

Instead of explaining cybersecurity from the outside, Steve and Samir throw you directly into a story where small problems stack up fast, a brutal storm, a utility under pressure, strange system behavior, and a team trying to decide whether this is just bad luck or something more serious. You follow people making real time decisions with incomplete information.

Tired, distracted, hoping it's nothing, which is exactly how real world incidents unfold. What's great is you don't need any background in cybersecurity to follow along. You're just listening to a suspenseful story that happens to teach you how these situations actually spiral. And since this is part one of episode 12, it's very much the setup, the calm before things really go sideways.

Perfect. Time to jump in now and stay tuned as the rest of the story unfolds. Subscribe now to The Cybersecurity Tapes by Dell and AMD wherever you get your podcasts.

This episode is sponsored in part by Bombas. One of the goals this year and all year round is to stay comfy, and Bombas is leading that charge in my house.

We love Bombas so much, it's all we wear. We even gifted to our family and our friends and our [00:21:00] nanny. We're big fans of the Grip socks, so we don't slip around on our floors. Bombas just launched their new sports socks, which are amazing for whatever you're into. Running golf, hiking. We're planning to do more snowboarding this year, and these things are cushioned, sweat wicking, and packed with techy features that make it feel like your feet are finally on your side around the house at night.

I'm living in their Sunday slippers, which keep my feet cozy during those cold winter nights. And Bombas also has underwear and teas. Buttery, soft, breathable, the kind of base layers that ruin every other brand for you. Plus, for every item you purchase, Bombas donates an essential clothing item to somebody facing housing insecurity.

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Jen Harbinger: Head over to bombas.com/jordan and use code Jordan for 20% off your first purchase. That's  bombas.com/jordan. Code Jordan at checkout.

Jordan Harbinger: Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on our website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back [00:22:00] to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a senior staff member in a large government office working with a fantastic team under an incredible supervisor who has mentored all of us and helped us learn and grow in our careers.

We have a young, relatively green member of our team, let's call him Joe, who has been with us for a couple of years. Joe is the lowest ranking team member and still has a lot to learn, but is nevertheless an asset. He participates in our projects, is eager to learn new things, and once he learns something, is generally able to do more of the work independently and reliably.

He leans into every task he's assigned with an eager and positive attitude, never complains, asks questions when something isn't clear, and definitely adds value to the team. He's also our department's natural social coordinator and logistical king organizing group, happy hours and arranging all meeting locations and travel logistics flawlessly.

But Joe has a significant trait that's holding him back from [00:23:00] advancement, and my supervisor and I have struggled with how to help him. He's an incredibly clumsy and awkward speaker in nearly all but the most casual one-on-one interactions. For example, in a meeting he'll pipe up to make a point and trip over his words, pause far too long to gather the next obvious word or concept, and use a cumbersome number of filler words and phrases.

Not just um, but stating and restating completely unnecessary phrases from the original question or topic. It becomes so cumbersome that it's difficult to pay attention long enough to understand the point he's trying to make, and frequently the point he's making doesn't really add any value to the discussion.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, that's a real problem. I feel bad for this guy. But yeah, definitely something he needs to know about. It sounds very annoying as well.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The impact of this is far, far worse in a public meeting or when addressing a citizen committee. We rarely give him defined speaking roles in these situations, but the meetings are often casual enough that different staff members [00:24:00] can chime in to emphasize a point or to add context.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, I know. Boy. Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: When Joe does it, it is always cringe-worthy. Often he's piping up to restate something that was just said, but with fits and starts, and you can see members of the public or committees simply go cold. Another thing I've noticed is that in more intimate team settings, like when I'm giving him instructions to carry out a task, he eagerly interjects as I'm speaking, trying to finish my sentences to show how he gets it, which he often doesn't.

Or interjecting with irrelevant examples all showing that he's thinking more about what he can say in the interaction than listening to the direction I'm giving.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, this is so annoying. Even hearing about it is annoying.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Brutal

Jordan Harbinger: dude. So that's coming from wanting to look good in front of you guys and wanting to prove his worth and wanting to be taken seriously.

All of which he is, which

Gabriel Mizrahi: clearly is doing

Jordan Harbinger: the opposite. Exactly right. But this is so common, especially with younger employees and it it's probably slash might be something he can just nip in the bud. I hope

Gabriel Mizrahi: the poor oral communication skills are holding him back [00:25:00] significantly. He's applied for several promotions and been passed over for all of them.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And it kills my supervisor to be unable to promote him.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, that's interesting. Why does it kill his supervisor?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I'm puzzled. He's just not ready to rise up. Right. He's not a leader yet. What's the problem?

Jordan Harbinger: Why is that so hard on the supervisor? Or am I just, am I robot Jordan who's like, Hey, if you are compassionate, this would be hard enough.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, I think, I mean, unless he means that they want him to rise up because they like him.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But they can't because he is liability and just. Stressful for them,

Jordan Harbinger: I guess I mean, but then coach him or let him go. Why is the supervisor agonizing over not being able to promote him if he's not promotable again, maybe I just need like an ounce of compassion here more than I already have.

I'm getting a sense that they're just tiptoeing around this guy and they're avoiding giving him really important feedback and then they complain openly about him and that is not gonna fix this problem.

Gabriel Mizrahi: All of this is extra interesting, given that the supervisor is apparently such a great mentor and has supported and coached them all so [00:26:00] generously.

But when it comes to this guy, it sounds like she doesn't quite know what to do anyway. He goes on. She's recommended that he take a course in public speaking, but didn't provide a specific course to plug into, and he hasn't pursued this

Jordan Harbinger: because that's not real feedback. Joe doesn't realize what a problem this is.

Right? He's not motivated to fix it. This supervisor was kind of like, oh, go take a Dale Carnegie course hoping that that's gonna fix it, but someone needs to sit this kid down and have a real talk about how he's showing up at work and how he views his role in this place.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was recently on an interview panel for his most recent promotion application where he performed very poorly with nerves overlaid on his generally awkward speaking pattern.

Having interviewed him gives me a unique opportunity to provide him some constructive feedback.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Great.

Jordan Harbinger: Great. Good. Now we're talking.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I know I can deliver it in a way that's helpful and affirming, but I'm worried that his confidence is already gonna be dinged by still not landing a promotion after so many tries.

I don't wanna further undermine his confidence to the point that he loses his comfort around speaking [00:27:00] up at all.

Jordan Harbinger: I hear that. But I think it's also possible that he'll just be bruised enough in the best way to be receptive to this feedback. Finally.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I totally agree. Now he can't deny the results. Right.

And there's a pattern of being passed over. So he might be primed to take this in.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. And then you're coming along and going, Hey, you wanna know why you're not rising up? This is why

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think he has to be willing to rattle Joe A. Little bit. Right. He can't protect him anymore.

Jordan Harbinger: No, a a hundred percent correct.

Our friend here, he, he's not gonna be a dick about it. He's not looking for ways to cut Joe down even more, or like flex his power over him or whatever. He's just saying, Hey, you need to hear this. That is necessary. And that's honestly, it's part of his job.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But more than that, I wonder if the two of you have any specific actionable resources I could recommend for him?

There is a course at our local community college on oral communication that I'm gonna recommend. Our supervisor would support his taking time to take it during the workday. I've looked for storytelling classes in our area, but haven't found anything. [00:28:00] And I don't think improv is what he needs as he shows.

No nervousness about speaking of

Jordan Harbinger: that's the problem. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Are there online or other resources you're aware of that I should recommend? Maybe ones that would teach the fundamentals of structuring spoken word signed, try to abide and be a good ally to a wide-eyed underling who's hopelessly tongue tied

Jordan Harbinger: man.

Tough situation. It can be really hard to manage somebody who has a massive blind spot like this. 'cause on one hand you're watching this kid put his foot in his mouth and trip over his, you know what left and right and you're like, okay, someone's gotta tell him. On the other hand, it is super awkward to have to point something so painfully obvious out to somebody else because if they're doing this and they don't realize how problematic it is, then your feedback might be quite jarring.

And that's a daunting task.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, totally. He's saying, I don't want to ding his confidence, but I think he might also be saying, I don't wanna put myself in a situation where I'm gonna feel cruel or guilty for throwing this guy for a loop and hurting [00:29:00] his feelings.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. And that might be why he's going, is there just some chorus at the learning annex?

I can send this guy to freaking improv Olympics or something like that. Make

Gabriel Mizrahi: it someone else's problem. That's right.

Jordan Harbinger: Because that's easier than having a real conversation with the guy. So as you can tell, I don't think that's the solution here. Joe's problem is deeper than technique or some style or skills.

This guy doesn't need to learn to yes and or understand what makes a great story arc or whatever. He needs to understand that his whole way of communicating, his understanding of why and when to communicate at all is completely off. He needs to learn that. Part of being a good communicator is reading the room, understanding what people actually need from him before he opens his mouth, and he needs to understand that talking is not a smart way to look good and be perceived as effective and important and useful.

He needs to understand that what he's doing is actually doing the opposite.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. He needs to be taught that these public situations are not opportunities for his own enhancement. [00:30:00] Yes, exactly. Like that could be a nice secondary effect if he does his job well, but this is not his politicking time.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

He's there to add value and serve other people's needs first and foremost. Not to hear himself talk.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel like. This is an employee, you kind of have to take down to the studs and then rebuild. It's not someone who just needs some tweaks here and there. Zip Zs up at the UCB is not gonna do it forever.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. It's so funny. Zip Zps, UPOP. I remember. I love that game, by the way. That's, it's an improv game for people who don't know what we're talking about. You do a lot of fun stuff in improv and it is good for getting people to come out of their shell. Joe is not in his shell. He likes hearing himself talk and he thinks he's doing a good job and is a disaster.

The whole motivation for talking is the problem here anyway, as wounding as it can be to be taken down to the studs. As you said, these are the kind of talks you need to get when you're young and I think everyone who's successful has gotten a few around that age, especially.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, I definitely got a few when I worked at my first job outta college.

There were a couple moments when I did a Joe like thing and I'm grateful for my managers for saying, Hey, just so you know, that's not [00:31:00] what's needed in that moment.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes,

Gabriel Mizrahi: got it.

Jordan Harbinger: These types of talks are what made me realize that corporate was just not going to work for me, or especially certain corporate environments where people were really, had really fragile egos.

A lot of power because I remember people telling me like, it's funny 'cause we handled a letter like this last week, but it was like tone down your personality, don't try to have a sense of humor at work. Things like that. This was a British law firm. Surprise. Surprise. Right. They did not like anybody with personality.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, this is the one where they got mad at you in the elevator for saying BS on the cuff link.

Jordan Harbinger: So that was actually the same firm but in New York and then when I was in the uk. Yes. Good memory. I got in trouble and a talking to on Monday. I went in the elevator and a partner, like a senior partner said something like, oh, what are your plans for the weekend?

And I was like, oh, I'll probably go to the pub and maybe go to see the London Eye and the, I don't know, natural History Museum. And I said, what about you? And he was like, oh, oh, I've got a fishing cabin. And then apparently he immediately emailed somebody and was like, that young man had the temerity to ask my [00:32:00] weekend plans after I asked him his plans.

And I was like, what? In the actual, so when they talked to me, they were like, did you ask Mr. Crawford what his weekend plans were? And I was like, yeah. And they were like, why? And I said, 'cause he asked me my weekend plans. And they were like, that man has worked very hard to get where he is. And I was like, I am still at a loss to why I did anything wrong.

And to this day I'm kind of like, nah bro, that's a you problem.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He was reading something into it that did not exist. What? That you were suggesting that he wasn't working hard enough?

Jordan Harbinger: I think it was just like he's allowed to ask me what I'm doing and I'm not allowed to ask what he's doing because it's inappropriate for me to be informal.

With somebody like that, even if they're informal with you, which to this day, I'm kind of like, Nope, you're weird if you do that. And I don't. You cannot change my mind. You're being weird. Not me. Ridiculous.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's absurd.

Jordan Harbinger: Ridiculous. So that was why I was like, I can't work at Link Leaders. It's this British law firm.

It's kind of a cool, there's cool people there, don't get me wrong. But I was like, this corporate culture does not jive with me. And then when I worked in New York, I went to a different firm and I was like, okay, don't make these same mistakes. And I remember the [00:33:00] partners there were like, Hey, who's got the fucking pizza?

And I was like, no, no, no. This is my place. This is my place. I get it here. These are my

Gabriel Mizrahi: people.

Jordan Harbinger: It all sort of added up to me being like, you know what? This whole corporate thing. This is gonna be a weight on my shoulders if I can't be myself. And so I created a job where I'm myself all the time and it works.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. But Joe's problem is different. Joe's problem is that he needs this lecture. It's appropriate

Jordan Harbinger: he does. And be him. Being himself is the problem here too, is the

Gabriel Mizrahi: problem. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: This isn't asking a partner what he is gonna do in the elevator. This is him wasting everyone's time in a meeting because he wants to hear himself talk.

It's a different and bigger problem. So I definitely feel it's time for a very direct, very supportive conversation with him about your observations. And the way I'd frame this is. Hey, listen, Joe, I've been working with you for a while now. I've seen you shine in a lot of ways. You learn quick, you have a great attitude, you ask good questions, you handle internal stuff like a champ.

I'm impressed and grateful for all of that. I've also had the opportunity to see what kind of leader and speaker you're shaping up to [00:34:00] be, both on the job and on the last interview panel. And I wanna bring your attention to a few things that I think are holding you back.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, really nice start. Love this.

Perfect.

Jordan Harbinger: And then I would just tell him about some of these moments. I mean, he probably already knows, right? The effect that his agenda and style are having on other people, on the vibe and success of those meetings, how other people see him. I would definitely mention that thing about restating stuff that was already said.

The thing about interjecting when you're speaking, chiming in, unnecessarily, finishing your sentences to show how he gets it and that he often doesn't get it. I would literally say the sense I'm getting is that you really wanna show us that you're on top of it, that you're ahead of things. You don't need to be managed, and I appreciate that.

But the reality is that sometimes you don't get it. I often see you thinking more about what you can say than actually listening when your job in those moments is to understand, take notes and execute. And then you might wanna wrap up with something like, I know this might be hard feedback to take in, but I [00:35:00] hope you can see that I'm sharing it with you because I genuinely want you to succeed here.

I know you're frustrated about not getting a promotion, and if a promotion is what you want, then this is what you need to work on. And if you crack it, you're gonna go far.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's perfect, dude. No notes. This conversation could honestly change this guy's life.

Jordan Harbinger: Listen, that's all I'd say at first. Let him take that in, let him respond.

My hope is that he thanks you for this, and he asks a few questions and he goes off and thinks about it and he makes some changes. If he doesn't respond well or if your words don't seem to really land with him, then I would back off. But that would be good information for you and your supervisor too.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. If he's truly promotable, then he is gonna listen to this feedback. If he doesn't, then he doesn't actually want to be a, a good partner to them and

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And learning. Rise up. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: So that's my take. I think 80% or more of this problem is gonna be solved by him radically shifting his lens and his attitude.

And if he works on this and he gets better, then you can help him look into a course.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. Best not put the cart before the course, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Foundation first, [00:36:00] then sign him up for Toastmasters.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm curious to know if some of the challenges that seem to be more about technical skills, like talking and fits and starts and filler words and being nervous.

I wonder if those will also be resolved by this bigger conversation or if there is a technical aspect to his problem.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, my theory is that it will, he's probably sputtering and flailing and starting and stopping because he's nervous and confused and self-conscious. Okay. Because on some level he knows he shouldn't be talking, but he can't help himself and he's like, I need to say something so that people know that I'm smart.

And paying attention if you just have a regular question, you just ask that question. But if you're like, how do I turn this into his speech? Yeah. On the fly and you're not good at that, which nobody really is for good reason, then yeah, you're gonna have a problem. So I think if he just shuts up, he won't have to worry about his performance 'cause he's not performing anymore.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah's a really good point 'cause he probably looks around and he sees people zoning out or going cold.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But then he keeps going, hoping he can like win them back over or prove that he should be talking and that just makes him more confused, more anxious. So,

Jordan Harbinger: and since he's not really connected to the audience and what they need.

It's making it [00:37:00] really hard to even stay on message. So just racking focus back to the audience might clear most of that up. I, there's a lot of podcasters that ramble. I mean, I, I'm sure I do it too sometimes, but they'll ramble and I'm thinking, why are you still talking? And the reason is because they're just thinking about their performance on Mike.

They're not thinking about what the audience needs. So if you're gonna be a good host, you need to mercilessly cut things that the audience doesn't need that are self-serving. But look, if this kid still struggles, he might need some additional training. That's great. Hope he finds it. If he doesn't improve at all, he might not be the kind of guy who should be doing any public speaking at all, and that's okay too.

But I do think he should know about this. I think he deserves a real shot, and he's lucky to have a boss like you. I'm actually excited to hear how this goes. Good luck. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier.

If you're toiling away for a grade, a Machiavellian narcissist, your business partner has used your criminal past to push you outta the company you started, or you're panicking that your [00:38:00] brother-in-law is moving your sister and their kids to a cabin in the middle of nowhere to murder them, whatever's got you staying up at night lately.

Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, our newsletter wee bit wiser. It's a lot of fun. It's a bite-sized gem from a past episode, from us to you. It's in your inbox most Wednesdays. It's a two minute read. Wisdom from the episodes, wisdom from our lives, wisdom from Feedback Friday, mistakes other people have made that we've all learned from.

Jordanharbinger.com/news is where you can find it. Okay, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys, I'll start with a quick update from Feedback Friday, episode 808. My wife wrote in after I had been rejected from the FBI. Then last December I accepted a position with the IRS. I completed my federal law enforcement training and am now a special agent with the IRS Criminal Investigation Division.

Jordan Harbinger: That sounds awesome. I, I'm glad we're reading this letter. I was excited about this one, Gabe. So this was an interesting letter. This earlier one, it was his dream to work at the FBI. His wife really wanted to support him after that setback. [00:39:00] It was really sweet.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It was sweet. If I recall correctly, I think we talked about some good ways to support a partner after they go through a disappointment and just like how to recover from rejection in general, keep going, stuff like that.

Jordan Harbinger: And apparently it paid off. Super happy to hear you landed on your feet. Man. It's the great news. It's funny how this stuff happens. You know, when, uh, when God closes the door, he opens a, he

Gabriel Mizrahi: opens an audit.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. He opens an audit, he opens an investigation. He makes you show receipts for that meal at the Sizzler.

That's $1,100. I know, I know people think of the IRS as this super boring, functional agency, but obviously it is a very important agency. The criminal investigation division's gotta be kind of interesting. I mean, you're basically doing police work building cases, but financial ones and that sounds pretty cool actually.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You guys recently took a letter from a guy whose ex committed PPP Idle, that's economic injury, disaster loan, and other COVID relief fraud during the pandemic, and I wanted to share some additional information with you. The FBI is [00:40:00] actually not the correct agency to contact about PPP loan fraud and federal prosecutors don't like cases that are very complex unless an investigator they have a relationship with is bringing it to them.

Jordan Harbinger: That's super interesting. It also makes a lot of sense. Also, weirdly, great plug for Six Minute Networking. Better text your DA buddies on the regular, or you won't get to slap cuffs on a perp who made up employees to buy a fricking gwa. You know the spiel. It's a hundred percent free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy.

It's on the Thinkific platform at Sixminutenetworking.com. Okay. Relationships, man, they are everything everywhere and every industry.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The IRS Criminal Investigation Division is handling most PPP loan fraud cases due to their complex financial nature and because they often intersect with employee tax evasion schemes.

If that listener wants to seek a legal remedy, he should reach out to his local IRS criminal investigation office. The fake financials that his ex-US to secure the loan could be used to start a tax evasion case because she probably didn't put that on her tax returns.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:41:00] Great point. So money, no pun intended.

Yeah, I bet. She didn't report her fake everything on her tax returns. She just cashed the checks

Gabriel Mizrahi: In the FBI's defense, a lot of the offices are short staffed after the administration change and fired all agents who had anything to do with the January 6th cases. Rest assured Jordan PPP loan fraud is being investigated, but it mostly isn't by the FBI.

The statute of limitations for those cases was increased to 10 years, so we have time to catch them. My office has a $3 million PPP loan case going to trial this month, and the IRS Criminal Investigation Division has a 94% conviction rate.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, that's great to know. Damn, that's a high conviction rate. That is some like.

North Korea level conviction rate. I mean, not quite, but man, I'm guessing once

Gabriel Mizrahi: it's it's giving red scare,

Jordan Harbinger: it's giving CCP. Yeah, it's, that's a high conviction rate, man. I'm guessing once the government has proof that you stole funds and you're going to court, you are basically totally screwed. You are done.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, and aggravated identity theft. Using a stolen [00:42:00] identity in the commission of a felony, that carries a mandatory two year sentence for each stolen id. Every fake employee, the ex made up will carry a two year sentence if she's convicted.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Based on that story, there were at least three fake employees, so that would be six years on top of the base crime.

Her ex won't be seeing the son till he's an adult and the IRS has forfeiture power, so that high-end home she bought and renovated can be seized. If you have any further questions that involve financial crimes, feel free to reach out. Signed the tax man taken an axman to these low lifes and transactions.

Jordan Harbinger: It should be transactions. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I just didn't wanna go full T-Pain on that. Wisconsin, what's that line in that T-Pain song? Oh

Jordan Harbinger: God, I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have a mansion in Ganan or whatever. Uh, where are we in this sign off? Yeah. Transactions. Uh, it's not just an infraction for which the feds lose their attraction.

We're getting traction with these subtractions, which gives me a great deal [00:43:00] of satisfaction.

Jordan Harbinger: Nicely done. Gabe. This letter has given me a great deal of satisfaction too. 'cause y'all know I have a raging justice boner for this stuff. I find people who steal government funds. That's my money, that's our tax money.

I find these people absolutely despicable. We all foot the bill for their gross selfishness and they always buy the dumbest stuff to like five cameras for their vacation.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It never goes into an ira, does it?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Uh, God, I, I was so glad to learn that there's a division whose sole purpose is taking these turds down and just flushing them.

Not much to add here. We just wanted to feature this one because we still get a decent amount of letters about whether people should report COVID fraud or they know their neighbor did this and that. I was happy to hear that these cases are still being taken seriously. So if anyone listening ever wants to report someone who stole government funds, now you know the right department.

You can find a list of field offices by region on the IRS website, which will link in the show notes. Congrats again on the new job, my friend. Way to roll with the punches. I'm sure you're doing excellent work. Work that matters to all of us. Thank you [00:44:00] for your service and keep up the great work. You know what?

You don't need to steal millions of dollars in government funds in order to enjoy the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. Sometimes February makes it look like everyone else has their love life totally dialed in. And no matter where you are, married, dating, single, it can mess with your head. But in reality, nobody's got it all figured out. Even the people who look like they got it all together.

And yes, that includes me. Shocking. I know. And yes, that's where therapy can be really useful. It's a way to get clear on what you actually want, what's been feeling heavy, and how to take some pressure off yourself, whether you're working on a relationship recovering from one or just trying to stop replaying the same unhealthy patterns.

That's why I use and recommend BetterHelp. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct. They're fully licensed in the us. Just fill out a short questionnaire so they can pair you with somebody who fits your needs. They've been doing this for 12 plus years, and their match fulfillment rate is industry leading, so they usually get it right one of the first few times, and if not, you can switch therapists anytime from their tailored recommendations.

Jen Harbinger: [00:45:00] Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/jordan. That's betterhelp.com/jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by Northwest Registered Agent. As a small business owner, I can tell you it's really easy to underestimate how much paperwork comes with getting a business off the ground. The behind the scenes documents that actually keep you legit.

That's why I like Northwest Registered Agent. They make it easy to build your complete business identity, operating agreements, meeting minutes, compliance, paperwork, all the unsexy but critical stuff, and you can do it in 10 clicks and 10 minutes. They've been helping entrepreneurs for nearly 30 years, and you get more with Northwest thousands of free guides, tools, legal forms, to help you launch and protect your business all in one place without the upsell.

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Jen Harbinger: Don't wait. Protect your privacy, build your brand, and get your [00:46:00] complete business identity in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes. Visit  northwestregisteredagent.com/jordanfree and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com/jordanfree.

Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by Audible. I burn through at least two audio books a week, prepping for the show. And let's be real. There is just no timeline where I'm sitting down and staring at a page. That's not how I learn at all. Audio is my mode. I'm listening on Audible while I'm getting my 10,000 steps in, sipping coffee on the couch, all while jotting notes down into my phone.

Honestly, I wish I'd had Audible back in the day instead of zoning out to hours of mindless tv. Imagine how much smarter I could have turned out. Listening on Audible feels like downloading knowledge straight into my head. Lately, I've been into MichaelAaron Flicker and Richard Shotton's Hacking the Human Mind.

Super fascinating stuff on influence decision making. What actually drives people, and Audible's well-being collection goes way beyond that. Brene Brown, Jamie Oliveron nutrition, even nature sleep sounds from the sleeping world. Whatever supports your mindset, health, or daily routine, Audible has it.[00:47:00]

Membership is $14.95 a month after 30 days. You can cancel any time, Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com/jhs. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do that is take a moment and support the amazing sponsors All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

If you can't find a code, you can always email us, jordan@jordanharbinger.com. We'll dig up that code for you. It really is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lip.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So a friend of mine's father recently passed away and she and her siblings have been dealing with all of the admin.

When a parent passes away settling the estate, selling the house, and handling insurance and all of that stuff, and her father had a will, the will was very clear. Everything [00:48:00] was in order. This percentage to this sibling, this percentage to that sibling, you know, all of that. Pretty standard. When they started distributing any remaining money from his accounts, they learned that their dad had not updated the beneficiary forms at all of his banks since he went through a divorce.

And he went through a bunch of life changes and the family had changed since then. So like one bank account didn't have one, and then another account listed his ex-wife as the beneficiary, even though that didn't really reflect the will, and she might or might not play ball on dispersing the funds properly.

So now they can't do what the will clearly stipulated, just from a bureaucratic point of view. And it's becoming a huge headache and it's probably gonna be fine in the end, but it's just way more complicated than it should be. So what I've learned from her and my recommendation of the week is how important it is to make sure that all of your beneficiary forms are filled out, up to date, and talking to your parents about making sure that theirs are all squared away before it becomes a problem.

Some accounts that you have don't even require you to fill one out, weirdly enough, so sometimes you don't even realize that nobody is listed as the [00:49:00] beneficiary. Which could mean that the assets go into probate, which as you probably know, is a huge nightmare. Often a huge waste of money. So this is super easy.

It takes like five minutes. Oftentimes you can fill out these beneficiary forms online. You can do it through your institution's website, or you can call them and they'll just walk you through it. I'm doing this myself. I asked my parents to make sure they did it. It's nice to know all of that is squared away.

Just a few minutes of you and your family's time now could just save a ton of stress and regret later on. So I wanted to share that with you.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Salad wreck, Gabriel, my parents did this as well recently. They just sort of went over everything. A friend of mine, his dad died and it was a mess. He had like multiple mortgages and all these bills and he wasn't sharing them with anybody.

So months after his dad passed away, they would get another thing that was like, Hey, you're still on the hook for financing this furnace. And they're just like, what are you talking about? You know, it was over and over and over and it was a huge headache and a massive source of regret. And I guess he was also hiding things like he didn't want anybody to know that he didn't have his whatever set up.

So it was like such a [00:50:00] pain. Yeah, get this done. It'll save your kids or whoever else. A ton of time, a ton of headache. It saves a ton of money. So there's a little bit of a different kind of recommendation, but I like throwing in some life pro tips like this here and there, and not on a related note. I'll just say, if you don't have a will and or trust, you need to get on that.

There's no excuse not to have one in this day and age. It's insanely easy to set up. You can do it online with a real lawyer. By the way. Don't just do like a form. Get a real attorney. We happen to have a sponsor for this right now, trust and will they make estate planning really easy? Most people complete everything in about 15 minutes, which is as long as it's simple.

And that's amazingly fast. By the way, you can go to trust in will.com/jordan for 10% off customized legal documents. If you've been sleeping on this, this is your reminder. This just happens to match Gabe's tip, which is cool. I hope y'all don't mind, but you need to do this. When, when I got a, by the way, I had one Will Gabe, and then we had kids and all this stuff, and I took that and I gave it to the California attorney that I have now, and I was like, yeah, blah, blah, blah, this, here's what I got.

And she's like, well, okay, this [00:51:00] doesn't include your business. And I was like, how is that possible? And she's like, well, you don't have crypto, do you? And I was like, some. And she's like, yeah, none of that's mentioned in here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, wow. That's good to know.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and I remember talking with the lawyer about it.

Here's the problem, and this is gonna sound a little, what is, what's the word? Ageist or whatever. The previous lawyer I had was 70 and semi-retired and insisted on federal expressing everything and it cost like a hundred dollars to transfer documents to her. And when we wanted stuff updated, she wanted us to highlight it and FedEx it back to her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Lemme guess that she did not know what the blockchain was,

Jordan Harbinger: right? So I told her about Bitcoin and she was basically like, that's not really a real thing, so who cares?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Don't worry about your nickels in the piggy bank, sweetheart.

Jordan Harbinger: It was pretty much that she was like, that's not really a thing, so don't worry about it.

Kind of assuming it was all just fad and was gonna go away. She doesn't realize it's actually an asset class and you have to deal with it properly. Wow. Anyway, so our new lawyer who's a little bit younger and sort of on top of this stuff was like, no, no, no. This is a disaster. You're so lucky we're changing this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Another great life. Pro tip right

Jordan Harbinger: there. Yes. Make sure you get somebody who [00:52:00] understands what you're doing. If you get somebody who does trusting estates for people and they've never done one for people with a business. Get somebody who does it with a business, especially if it's an online business and not a brick and mortar, that's gonna be different.

And if you have a bunch of, I don't know, crypto or something like that, or holdings abroad, you need to make sure people have experience with this because a lot of lawyers will just be like, it's fine. I put your Chase account on there and it's like, okay, now all this stuff is now in probate or just floating around and you don't know what to do with it and your kids are fighting over it or whatever.

It's not good. You do not want that. Anyway, there's a sub Reddit for the show. A lot of listeners in there. Gabe's in there. Bob's in there. I'm banned. Whatever. You can find it on Reddit at the Jordan Harbinger sub Reddit. Alright, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a mom of four kids, ages 6, 5, 3, and two, and my husband and I have been married for almost eight years.

He's always been my biggest supporter, encouraging, empowering, gentle patient, and great about sharing responsibilities at home. After our second child [00:53:00] was born, I decided to go back to school for music therapy, partly to help provide additional income for our family, but also because I was struggling with new parent identity loss and needed something that was just for me.

Music has always been a profound source of connection for me, and I've always loved serving others. So music therapy felt like the perfect merging of those callings.

Jordan Harbinger: Amazing. Love that

Gabriel Mizrahi: my husband supported us financially while I pursued my degree. I completed a five year program in three and a half years.

Wow. All while navigating young toddlers and adding our third child to our family. She attended classes with me for her first six weeks of life until she could begin the university's daycare program. I graduated with a 3.9 GPA when I was pregnant with our fourth child. I pushed through my internship while dealing with preeclampsia, gave birth, took six weeks postpartum.

Finished my internship and passed the board certification exam all before my fourth child was a year old.

Jordan Harbinger: Holy moly, this, you are a warrior madam. This is an insane amount of stuff to take on. [00:54:00] I would not, I would not make it through that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am exhausted just hearing about that I know, and to pull it off at that level of success is really something.

During those years though, our family was under significant financial strain. Living on one income with four small kids was incredibly difficult, and no matter how much we budgeted or cut back, we constantly felt like we were drowning. At the same time, my mental health was deteriorating. Being home full-time while meaningful in many ways, amplified my OCD depression and anxiety.

I struggled with identity loss, isolation and feeling like I wasn't contributing in the ways I wanted to. I struggled with suicidal ideation. Even had a near attempt when my fourth was a few months old.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, wow. I'm very sorry to hear that. That is, this is tough. So this period, super productive, stimulating, gratifying, but it clearly caught up with you while you were home with the baby.

Poor thing. I hope you found the support that you needed someone to talk to.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm in therapy and have been for years.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:55:00] Great. All right. That was my next question. Very glad to hear you have that support.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I began working part-time as needed as a music therapist at a hospice center nearly two years ago, but it wasn't enough to stabilize either our finances or my mental well-being.

Jordan Harbinger: I just wanna wrap my head around this for a second. Postpartum stuff, OCD, depression, anxiety, identity loss, isolation, all these big existential struggles. In a near suicide attempt and her next move, Gabriel, is to go back to work.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. So work is clearly very important to her, but you're right, that is a very heavy chapter to move on from and then to go from that back into therapeutic work yourself.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a lot. It is a lot. I'm just picturing her working at this hospice center. I imagine that's gotta be a pretty intense environment. Yeah. Sitting with people who are dying and she's thinking, yeah. Three weeks ago, I almost killed myself anyway. Let me shake this tambourine at a cancer patient. I don't know.

Look, I'm not trying to make light of this. It's just, it's a heavy role for somebody who's struggling in their own life as well. That's all.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, no, no. It's a good [00:56:00] point. Not just that she's throwing herself into work, but that she's throwing herself into this work.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And I'm sure she could have written many paragraphs about the relationship between her own suffering and this big calling of hers.

'cause there's must, there must be some connection there.

Jordan Harbinger: Maybe working with people who are dying also helps put things into perspective for her. That would be one big upside to going back to work when you're this fragile.

Gabriel Mizrahi: All of this made the idea of moving into a full-time role. Feel not just practical but necessary, both for our family survival.

And for my own sense of purpose and stability.

Jordan Harbinger: Hmm. She keeps mentioning this purpose and identity thing, so that's,

Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Clearly really important to her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Then last year I was offered a full-time hospice music therapy position. This job opened a lot of doors for us and offered essential income, stability and health insurance.

My husband and I discussed the major changes, our two youngest starting daycare, him taking on school, drop off and pickup, and me working a structured eight to five with a long commute. Those conversations went well and I felt completely supported, [00:57:00] so I started the job. Excited about the opportunity.

We're six weeks into this transition, and now things at home feel like they are unraveling. The house is a mess. The Google calendar is overflowing, and the learning curve at a corporate national hospice company has been astounding. What's been especially hard though, is how drastically my husband's behavior has shifted since I started working full-time.

The man who has always been supportive, patient, and involved, has become moody, irritable, and short With both me and the kids. He's begun yelling and saying demeaning things to me in front of them, and he stopped doing many of the household tasks he previously handled without issue. He often complains that taking the kids to and from school is hurting his work and productivity.

And when I offer to adjust my schedule or take one of those responsibilities back, he refuses saying things like, you wanted to go be a boss, babe, you said your schedule wouldn't allow it, so stick to it and get outta here.

Jordan Harbinger: Yikes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But then in moments when I'm simply communicating [00:58:00] logistics, when I need to leave or get home, what my workday looks like, et cetera.

He'll say things like, I just wish you would choose to prioritize your family every once in a while.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, man, this is tough. So obviously he's going through it too, and this way of communicating is not super kind and not helpful. He sounds angry.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Angry or just overwhelmed and probably out of control,

Jordan Harbinger: which can cause a person to lash out for sure.

Not entirely fair, but understandable, but whatever it is, even if he has a point, not the most productive way to communicate that to your spouse.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The inconsistency has been confusing and painful, and I'm not sure how to interpret what is really going on.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a really nice way to put it. I love that you're asking that question.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Same. The interpretation is everything, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Staying open to what your husband actually means by this stuff as opposed to deciding what he means and then like building a case around that. That's gonna make this much easier to work on. For sure.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Meanwhile, my mental health has actually improved.

Being back at work full-time has given me purpose, structure and [00:59:00] stability. We're finally climbing out of a deep financial hole. My husband refuses individual and couples therapy saying he's quote unquote fine and that I'm the one who should increase my sessions if I need help or support.

Jordan Harbinger: Fascinating how often we hear that that's too bad.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Am I failing my family the way my husband insists I am? Is this tension just growing pains after six years of me being the primary parent? Or is there something deeper going on? How can I navigate this transition, support my marriage, and still keep the progress I've worked so hard to make personally and professionally signed trying to find the formula to conduct this increasingly unwieldy orchestra?

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, what a story. What a fascinating person. So much going on here. So I just wanna reiterate what you've built, this large family, a meaningful career, a very complex but stimulating life through sheer hard work and a strong sense of what lights you up. It's extremely impressive and honestly, it's very inspiring.

Like I said, you sound like a badass. I probably couldn't achieve half of this with four small kids. [01:00:00] So well done. All of that has played out alongside and probably informed in various ways, some very real mental health struggles and now these challenges in your marriage. And I'm, I'm sorry about that. I can hear how stressful and confusing it is.

It must make all of this so much harder. Candidly, the challenges you and your husband are having, which by the way I don't think are super unusual. I think all couples struggle at various points to manage stress, communicate well, collaborate effectively, parent young kids, but they're the kinds of challenges that you'll probably make the most progress on in couples therapy.

The fact that he doesn't want to go, that's a real obstacle. And also probably an interesting data point in all this, not only is your husband very different from you in this department, I mean therapy is your career. I'm guessing he's resisting going because he doesn't believe that he's responsible for these challenges and or he doesn't wanna have to deal with what might come up in session, whether that's specific issues between you or his own stuff, or just the basic vulnerability of working with a therapist

Gabriel Mizrahi: or maybe [01:01:00] having to give up the narrative that this is all her fault basically, or that she's the only one who needs to change here.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Whereas agreeing to go means opening the door to a new story about what's happening between them. A more complicated one, and I think probably a more accurate one, which would mean having to take ownership of his piece of the situation. I can empathize with him to some degree. A lot of people, especially men, especially men who are new to therapy, they can find the whole project daunting.

I get that. When one spouse is saying, I'm fine, you're the one who should go to therapy more often if you need help. Not only is that kind of invalidating, but it shuts the conversation down. It just narrows the paths forward.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, and it puts the onus back on our friend here to make all the progress in their relationship, which is tough.

Jordan Harbinger: Which to be fair, she might be able to make progress by taking care of her side of the street. That is possible. But she's already in therapy. It's not like she hasn't gone near any of this stuff before.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And the particular problem they're wrestling with, it's not just an issue with her, right? It's about their marriage.

It's about the way they talk to each other, the way they support each other. [01:02:00] How they work through conflicts and grievances or whatever. So I'm, I'm not sure in what world this is just a her problem.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed completely. And I'd actually go a step further and say, it sounds like there's a lot happening on his side of the equation here.

This anger he has, the yelling, the saying demeaning things, his complaints about the impact the kids are having on his work, the passive aggressive comments about her and her career,

Gabriel Mizrahi: which are all new behaviors. Let's remember. I think that's interesting,

Jordan Harbinger: right? She said he was always supportive and patient and involved, and now he's moody, irritable, and short.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally different. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: In what world is that entirely her problem to resolve? I mean,

Gabriel Mizrahi: it can't be.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Even if he believes that she's the one provoking him, stressing him. That's still going through some process in him. Mm-hmm. He's still responsible for how he responds and how he communicates.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But honestly, Jordan, like you said a moment ago, I think one likely explanation for this sudden change is that her husband is overwhelmed and stressed and feeling outta control because that does seem to be the one big thing that has changed is how they've had to reorient their lives to make her [01:03:00] career possible.

It's understandable. How could they not be? They have four young kids, they're juggling two big careers. The logistics sound bananas. They, until recently were having money problems. They each want to contribute. They each wanna be fulfilled. That might not always be possible at the same time, like this is a lot for any couple to deal with.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And also as a man, I think I can understand why the financial piece of this might be particularly difficult for him. We don't know for sure, but I do wonder if maybe he's experiencing some unique stress and shame around struggling to provide for the family, and that's just coming out as anger.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a really interesting theory. So I agree with you that he's not making things easier. If he just said, honey, I am totally overwhelmed. I am angry. I'm not getting as much done as I used to. I'm struggling with what your new job is putting us through. I feel bad that I wasn't able to provide for us.

Whatever it is, you know, I wanna support you, but this doesn't feel sustainable. Anything like that, well

Jordan Harbinger: just, that would probably be a huge help. Yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: totally different conversation, right? If he only learned how to do that in couples therapy, that would probably [01:04:00] be a big win. Although I think he would probably learn a lot more than just that.

But that's a useful thing to know how to do. But actually, my original point was I think we're both very identified with our friend here. We want her to have purpose in her life. I want her to be able to earn this money, then contribute to the family. She deserves all of it. She's worked so hard to get here, but I'm with you.

I also do feel for her husband and I just wanna make some room for a guy who is probably struggling with some big stuff of his own, quite understandably, and doesn't really know how to address it.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally. This amount of chaos and instability would do a number on anyone. I don't like the way he is trying to manage it, which is really not managing it.

He's just lashing out and blaming her. But I agree with you, she'd only be helping them succeed if she took a real interest in his feelings right now, as much of an interest as she hopes he'll take in hers.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also imagine that there are a few different sources of his anger, and probably his anger has a few different functions in their relationship.

Just reading between the lines here, and I'm also gonna be speculating a tiny bit, but her [01:05:00] husband might have some complicated feelings about her new career. He might support her in one way and maybe resent her a little bit in another way, or he might not have realized until this moment that he would've preferred that she stay home with the kids or thought of herself as a mother first and a professional second.

He might have some residual feelings about that period where she was really struggling. I mean, he might be worried about her mental health still, or her ability to handle all of this. Who knows. He might even be angry about the near suicide attempt if he knows about that. I mean, he might just be anxious about the uncertainty of the whole situation, and that's what the anger is about.

Jordan Harbinger: Good point. Like have you really resolved all that? Is that gonna happen? Again,

Gabriel Mizrahi: as we were talking about earlier, being angry at her might also be away for him to avoid looking at his role and all this. I mean, he might be angry at himself for agreeing to the new job for not being able to manage things as well as he thought he could.

But instead of trying to figure out what he needs to do to adapt, he's locating that in her. So the anger might be a little projective in that way, [01:06:00] and then also protective.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. Like, I'm so angry at you for putting us in this situation. You fix it that way. Yeah. I don't have to acknowledge that I signed up for this and might actually have to find better ways of working with it.

Yeah, I could see that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also wonder if this anger and this passive aggression, if it might also be a language for a message he doesn't quite know how to articulate.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. So what do you mean like. That's the only way he has of communicating or,

Gabriel Mizrahi: yes. And that he might be communicating something more than just his disapproval or his anxiety.

Again, I'm speculating, but when he says you wanted to go be a boss, babe, so you know, stick to it and get outta here. He might be saying, well, you said you were up for this. You rearranged our entire life to make it happen after a very crazy period. So now prove you can actually do it. Show me it was worth it.

Jordan Harbinger: Ah, interesting. So the subtext might be he's challenging her, he's holding her accountable.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a nice way to put it. Or when he says, I just wish you would choose to prioritize your family every once in a while. What he might actually be saying is, I [01:07:00] just wish you would prioritize me. You know, I feel disconnected from you, or I feel misunderstood, or I feel uncared for.

What he might be saying really is, I miss you.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. So the anger is just the tip of the iceberg, but underneath it is all these other needs and feelings and messages that he refuses to explore because he won't go to therapy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I mean, I think it's possible, and if it's not those particular messages, it's probably other ones.

So when she asks, is there something deeper going on, I suspect that that's part of the, something deeper. This is not ultimately a conflict about the kids' school pickups or what their workday looks like or whose career should take priority. This is a conflict about what they need as individuals and as a couple.

And how they feel about themselves and how they feel about the other and what this new lifestyle is bringing up for them. And probably years of challenges and tension that seem to have accumulated and are now boiling over. And ultimately, I think it's about how they take care of each other through all of this, how they evolve to service this very ambitious vision for their lives.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:08:00] Also, I'm getting the sense that they are just exhausted, and when you're exhausted, it's really hard to show up as your best self. Sometimes anger is just the easiest way to communicate when you're depleted. I do it all the time. I snap at my parents for something minor and I realize Papa Jordan needs a nap and a banana.

The the obvious answer is get more sleep, take care of yourselves. But with four young kids and two careers, they might just go through a period where they're pushed to the brink a little bit and they need to learn how to work with that stress better. So are you failing your family the way your husband insists you are?

Well calling What's happening here? Failing. I think that's probably overly simplistic. I understand that your husband feels you aren't prioritizing the right things. He's allowed to feel that way. He's allowed to check in and ask if you are, and you're allowed to decide for yourself if that's true. In an ideal world, that's an ongoing conversation between the two of you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, you haven't told us much about your kids, what they need from you, what challenges might be coming up for them. So it's hard to know if you're failing them. I can't say for sure that you aren't, [01:09:00] but you haven't shared anything that would suggest that you're like seriously neglecting them or anything like that.

I dunno if you guys were like forgetting to pick up your kids from school regularly, or one of your kids were having behavioral issues that weren't getting addressed or you know, like multiple nights a week, mom is just MIA and we can't reach her or whatever, that's a different story. But even then, I would probably say slapping a label, like failing on yourself kind of misses the nuance of a parent who is trying to be a great mom and also wants to have a meaningful career.

Jordan Harbinger: What I'm hearing is that you and your husband are juggling multiple goals and responsibilities, and that means sometimes handling parts of your life imperfectly. That's just what happens. I don't think the standard here needs to be perfection, whatever that means. I don't know any parent who crushes everything a hundred percent all the time.

And the standard here I think should be, are we supporting each other? Are we talking to each other? Am I clear on my priorities? Am I giving all of us every advantage I possibly can? Given the constraints here, that is something you can achieve.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also wonder where this failing idea comes from, [01:10:00] because she never said that her husband said that about her.

He might be implying it, and hey, maybe that is how he feels. But as you pointed out, Jordan, she is being pretty thoughtful about what interpretations she runs with, and it sounds like this is one of those interpretations. Her husband can have some legitimate questions and concerns about how they're managing their family, how they're balancing their careers, without implying that she's a total failure.

All of the judgment that comes with a label like that.

Jordan Harbinger: I do wonder if the concept of failure is a big one for her, especially given what a high performer she is.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The mother of three who finished a five year program in three and a half years with an infant in one arm and got a 3.9 GPA while pregnant and worked through her pregnancy and all these medical issues.

I mean, she must hold herself to insanely high standards.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and those standards must be a big part of how she sees herself, what kinds of experiences she wants to have in life, what she deserves.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, I have massive respect for anybody who achieves at a high level, but I think we all know that high achievers, super ambitious people.

[01:11:00] I'm not gonna say there's something wrong with them. I'm probably fall into that camp sometimes, but there is always more going on beneath the surface, and in her case, anything less than exceptional. Might automatically make her feel like a failure, and I can only imagine the impact that that belief must have on her identity and on her mental health.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's where my mind went. I'm sure there were many things contributing to the OCD and the depression and the anxiety, the meaninglessness. I'm sure she and her therapist have talked a ton about this, but holding herself to this abstract, impossible, monolithic standard, that's gotta be a big part of it.

And how she meets all these difficult feelings that result to say nothing of the childhood and life experiences that created these ideas in the first place,

Gabriel Mizrahi: 100%. I would really encourage her to consider a less rigid, less black or white rubric for what success and failure actually look like in a situation like this.

I also just wanna make room once again for her husband's feelings about this perfectionism. In one way, he might be reinforcing the perfectionism by getting angry at her for falling short [01:12:00] as a mom and as a wife. In another way though, he might actually be shining a light on the absurdity of it. Like, this is the rubric by which you wanted to measure yourself, you know?

How's that working out for you?

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting man. So much going on between these two. So we went deep into this one. I hope we've given you some new angles here. I do think there's something deeper going on. There always is. I don't think this is just growing pains after six years of being the primary parent.

Although this is obviously a huge shift for you guys. It was bound to be a little bumpy. The best thing you can do to navigate this transition, support your marriage, protect all your progress, is to communicate with your husband as well as you can. Try to understand where he's coming from, try to empathize with him while you take care of yourself.

Keep taking care of yourself as best you can, and your therapist should be a big part of that. But more than anything. Instead of looking at your life and going, I need to do this perfectly. I need to get this right. I would try as much as you can to look at it instead and go, I need to keep learning as best I can.

I need to be open to evolving, [01:13:00] to handle all of this as well as I can, knowing I'm not always gonna get it perfect, but that I can always adjust along the way and do better, whatever that means to you. I think you're gonna get a lot further that way with far less suffering, sending you your husband and your kids a big hug and wishing you all the best.

Go back and check out Corey, Dr. Rowe on our Skeptical Sunday on the Gold Standard. If you haven't done so yet, show notes on the website. Transcripts on the website, advertisers deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and yeah, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

Consult a professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. [01:14:00] In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

You're about to hear a preview with Jamie Mustard, who signed a billion year contract at age five, while he still believed in Santa Claus and spent his childhood inside Scientology's Sea org, where kids were warehoused like livestock and denied even basic education.

JHS Trailer: The story of the Lost Children of Scientology has never been told, and I really do believe if people knew what happened to us in the seventies, eighties, and nineties, what happened to us kids in that environment?

They would stop it. There's a line for the suffering of children. By the age of five or six years old, I just basically started to go completely numb. These thousands of kids, they have autoimmune disease. They're all doing construction, most of them. Some of the more successful ones get lucky because they become contractors.

If people knew it would happen to us, which is the story that I wrote, that people would stop. It would be the end. On the day of my birth, I was handed over to a [01:15:00] religious paramilitary organization in high control authoritarian group, in a slum tenement where I spent the first two and a half years of my life with little to no human touch, and that would be the beginning of pretty much a 20 year gauntlet where I wouldn't go to school and I would literally be analyzed.

We weren't looked at as anything of value until we could work or contribute labor. I never went to school at the age of 20. I could barely write characters, and I didn't know how to use a comma or construct a sentence or a paragraph. The reason I never spoke out is what I write about that happened to me.

It's humiliating. I don't want anyone to know any of the things that we've talked about today. I mean, I think Scientology is the most sophisticated mind control system, probably in the history of the human species. I'm starting for the first time in my life to be shame free.

Jordan Harbinger: To hear what happened during the largest FBI raid in US history, which makes you wonder how this all stayed hidden in plain sight, and when he finally escaped, nearly illiterate, at age 19, check out episode [01:16:00] 1270 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

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