1162: Calculating Courtesan Craves Close Connection | Feedback Friday

1162: Calculating Courtesan Craves Close Connection | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the co-captain, keeping an eye on the skies while we put this aircraft of life drama on dooze control, Gabriel Mizrahi. Nice. Are we free to walk about the cabin?

Gabriel Mizrahi: No. Is that what you're saying? Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: You can go stretch your quads or do some yoga by the first

Gabriel Mizrahi: class lavatory. I am that guy actually on long haul flights. I'm the guy who's like in the back of the plane by the lavatory. I won't do down dogs. It's gross to put your hands gross.

Crosstalk: Yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but uh, I'll, you know, I'm like stretching against the wall while the flight attendants are checking their phones on their break.

It's, it's the only way to get through a flight.

Jordan Harbinger: It really is. You know, I have to say, you ever see somebody go into the, have we talked about this? They go into lavatory wearing their socks and you're just like, you disgusting bastard. Oh, of course we've talked about that,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but are we gonna talk about the fact that you pronounce it lavatory?

Jordan Harbinger: Did I say la lavatory? The lavatory? That seems like how I used to talk.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My dear friend and co-host loves to say lavatory and grandiose, [00:01:00] grandiose lavalier. Like he's a member of the upper crust in like Imperial Britain. What are you talking about?

Jordan Harbinger: This podcast is really the Queen's English is the only acceptable.

Vernacular vernacular, but

Gabriel Mizrahi: you swing from like this freaking guy to lavatory, lavatory, lavatory, lavatory.

Jordan Harbinger: On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical, practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. Hey, during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, organized crime figures, scientists, military folks, journalists, jihadis, you name it. This week we had Teagan Broadwater, author of Life in the Fishbowl.

A former undercover cop who infiltrated one of America's most notorious Crip organizations. We talked about infiltrating street gangs, working undercover, the damage these gangs do to communities. There was just so much to talk about. We made it into a two-parter, truly amazing story. Here on Fridays though, we take listener letters, [00:02:00] offer advice, play way too niche, soundbites, and randomly pronounced words like We're Dame Judy Dench.

How cool of a title is that, by the way, Dame. Uh, DJ d. DJ d. Love it, by the way, Gabe, thanks for letting me crash at your place again this week. Oh yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: of course. My pleasure. Broa. You enjoy your stay.

Jordan Harbinger: You know it man. Another 10 outta 10. I noticed you quarantined your cache of kidney beans on the right side of the fridge so I could fit in two dozen organs in there.

You that appreciated that. You

Gabriel Mizrahi: like that? Yep. I read your Google review from last time, so feedback taken.

Jordan Harbinger: Sorry I couldn't join you for hot yoga this time. Mm-hmm. I did something weird to my arm, as you know, and I didn't wanna push it. Yeah, I know you were in delicate shape. You. Little delicate. I get it.

Snowflake. I interviewed Ed Helms this week from the Office from the Hangover, and when I went to shake his hand, I froze in midair and I just went and he was like, oh, that's not good. And at my age, I know better than to go ham when I've pulled a muscle. I like working out too much to risk a real injury that's gonna take me out for several weeks or months.

Fair enough. So Ed Helms, he is like, lemme sign your book. And it says, I hope your shoulder feels better, [00:03:00] which in 20 years I'm gonna be like, what was he talking about? But, uh, yeah, it, it was funny. Gabe, I hope you don't mind, I'm about to tell everybody this. Oh, our homo erotic work session. Yeah. Yeah. Why not?

So Wednesday night, I, and I really wish you didn't just describe it that way, but, uh, I guess that's what it was. So Gabe and I are in the living room. We're doing some show prep, and I, I can't even lift my right arm. I'm like, oh my God, I tore my rotator cuff, or I separated it or whatever. He's like, ah. You want me to work on it for you?

I'm like anything at all. 'cause it's actually just hurting, doing normal stuff, which is not good. So Gabe starts giving me some sort of like brutal shiatsu level massage. There's knuckles and thumbs deep in the back of my shoulder and after 10 minutes I swear my arm was like 60% better. I couldn't believe it.

Yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: dude, no. Shout out to my dad for teaching me that stuff. He's been taking me to shiatsu massages since I was a kid and he's always like fixing my neck and my shoulder, my back. It's magic.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, double shout out to Victor, uh, to Padre. 'cause I also ate one of those bombass grapefruit from his garden.

So he's killing the citrus game Vic. He really is. But hey, [00:04:00] at one point we're going over a consult or something and I'm sitting at the table on the dining table, your dining table on my laptop, and Gabe's standing behind me working on my shoulder and we lock ice in the mirror. Like, uh, it just burst out laughing.

Like this is the gayest thing that we've ever done, but I don't

Gabriel Mizrahi: care

Jordan Harbinger: because my shoulder's

Gabriel Mizrahi: killing me. One of our most ridiculous moments, but also very special I feel. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Somehow even more ridiculous than bar than a hot bar. I'm just glad I had my clothes

Gabriel Mizrahi: on this time. Oh dude. When I started Jordan was like, do you want me to take off my shirt?

And I was like, um. Nah. That's okay, dude. No, I think we can get this done with the shirt on, you know, just so we can look each other in the eye after.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. We do have to have a working relat. No, there's no HR department to

Gabriel Mizrahi: complain to. I called Jen complaining about your conduct.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Hey, thanks for the happy ending.

Uh, no, I'm kidding. Thanks for the massage and uh, a place to lay my head couldn't help but notice there was no gift on my pillow this time. Wow. Whatever. A little disappointing. Wow. Not complaining. Okay. Just noticing. Mm-hmm. I'm platinum [00:05:00] elite at Shea Gaby. Least you could do bottle of champagne for me to ignore on the bedside table.

I

Gabriel Mizrahi: lent you my shampoo and I fixed your shoulder. You're gonna complain that there weren't chocolate covered strawberries in your room. God, you're such a diva now.

Jordan Harbinger: Just saying maybe you're getting a little too comfortable. That's all. Uh, speaking of flamboyance, a lot of you have been writing me lately saying you've been enjoying the stories we tell on feedback Friday.

And some of you have asked me how can I learn how to tell good stories as well. And so I thought I'd share a few thoughts about this kind of one of my favorite topics. Being a good storyteller, just in a very simple every day kind of way. Even if you're not doing it professionally, you're not gonna go to the moth or whatever.

It's just a great skill to have, and I'm always trying to hone it a little bit every week. So obviously you need to have moments that are worthy of a story in order to tell a good one, but they don't need to be magical. Right. I also think most people, they just don't realize how much of what happens to them every day is kind of story worthy, or at least every week.

Yeah. Because maybe we're not always paying attention in the right way, or maybe we haven't [00:06:00] found a way of talking about life that makes things story worthy, which is part of the magic of being able to spin a good yarn. I mean, I know people who can captivate me with the story about going to the dry cleaners or whatever, or getting their shoulder jabbed with a thumb.

And I know people who have hiked Mount Everest or done crazy exciting things, and they just put me to sleep in a few seconds. Mm-hmm. When they're trying to recount something. So yes, it definitely helps if weird or crazy stuff happens to you if you're the kind of person who tends to get into funny situations, but it's not necessary.

And for me, what makes something story worthy is all the little details. The details are everything. That's the first big step in my view, just paying attention to those details. Could it be the way the cashier at the store looked? Could it be the weird way your neighbor said, have a good one when you pass them in the hall this morning?

Could it be the way that you felt when you were on a date? Could it be the way the office smelled when your colleague Todd microwaved salmon in the break room? You get the idea. Yes, dude. The more minute and bizarre kind of the better the details are. Mm-hmm. The other thing, most memorable moments, most good details, even if we clock them, they're [00:07:00] lost because we forget to capture them.

So in my opinion, most people, and remember, I used to teach clients this all the time for 11 years or whatever. Most people have more great stories than they realize. They just don't have the practice of observing the world around them, and they're not in the habit of documenting the stuff life throws at 'em just by keeping it real short.

There was one guy in a very early class that I taught in like 2007 and he told me I don't have any stories. And I said, why not? And he said, I just got back to the United States and I don't have anything that I'm doing here. Really? I'm between jobs. I said, what was your old job? He said, I used to drive a fuel tanker in Iraq and Afghanistan in the military.

And I was like, didn't you ever get attacked or anything like that? And he's like, oh yeah, all the time he'd shoot rocket propelled grenades. So this is a guy who used to get shot at, with driving a truck full of fuel. He used to have rocket propelled grenades shot at him in a war zone. That's wild. In a war zone.

And he was like, oh, I don't have anything interesting to talk about. That to me was ridiculous. Another guy told us he had nothing [00:08:00] interesting to talk about and his hobby turned out to be flying his own plane over the coastal areas of Florida and looking for Cubans that were floating in on rafts and reporting them.

Wow. So that they could get rescued because a lot of these people were coming in on like tires. He was a Cuban guy and he was like, I want these people to not drown. So I look for people that are in danger and I report it to these boat teams that go and get them, and I'm like, you don't think you have stories?

These are some of the most interesting things that I've heard. I remember it 15, 20 years later.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Isn't it funny how you could become desensitized to your own life?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. That's what it is. So most people really do have some. I recommend writing down the funniest or most interesting thing that happens to you each day, even if it's kind of a stretch or if it's easier with an audience.

Text your best friend whenever something unusual happens and try to describe exactly what went down. Then paste it into your notes app or whatever you got. And yes, most days are relatively uneventful, but over time these small notes add up. And in a year or two, you could easily have five, 10 genuinely entertaining stories to share.

Plus, you'll be [00:09:00] training your brain to pay attention to what happens in a new way, and that'll just give you more and more fodder after that. It's kind of all about practice. You just tell little stories to people here and there, over and over. Get comfortable talking about life in that way. Watch their reactions.

See what gets a laugh. See what makes them lean in. See what makes them tune out. Iron out the kinks. Hone your material. Figure out which stories do well in which settings. It's a skill and like any skill, you get better at it, the more that you do it. And like I said a moment ago, if you can get even 20% better at telling stories.

Even if you're not trying to be a standup comedian or a writer, or a corporate trainer, something like that, this is a real kind of game changer in many ways. The best salespeople I know are storytellers. The best daters I know are storytellers. And actually, I kind of think the happiest people I know are storytellers.

Mm. It's maybe a weird claim, but storytelling, look, it's not just a career. It's a way of appreciating life, reflecting it back to people, influencing them if the situation calls for it, but mostly just about being playful and having fun. Yeah. And that is really [00:10:00] available to all of us. So give it a go and see what happens.

And one more thing before we kick off housekeeping thing. We're retiring the AI chat bot on the website. Unfortunately, the company we were working with to build and manage the chat bot is pivoting. They're no longer supporting the chat bots. It's a bummer. I like that thing. I know you guys did too. Maybe we'll get another one.

That's just what's happening. So if you wanna dig up an old episode, a few easy ways you can do that. Or you go to Google, you type in site colon Jordan harbinger.com. Then the keywords you're looking for, like feedback Friday, rubber mallet, hit and run or whatever. And then that'll tell Google to crawl just our website and it should turn up the episode.

You can use third party ai. Of course. I think there's a few of those now. Or if you try all of that, you really can't find something, you can always email us or the feedback Friday inbox directly. We'll try to find it for you, but it is a huge help when you try for yourself first, just with the volume of email that we get in.

Ditto for sponsor codes, email me directly, I'll find ones you can't find on Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Alright. What's the first thing outta the mail back?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a trans lesbian in [00:11:00] my late thirties living in rural Asia, and recently my wife of 12 years lost our life savings in an investment scam.

She used the money without consulting me, lost it all, and now is court mandated to repay half of it to me.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. I'd be so pissed if my spouse of 12 years lost our entire life savings in a scam. That really hurts. Yeah, a lot of people don't realize that financial infidelity is a thing and it can be just as painful as sexual infidelity or emotional infidelity.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Thankfully, I'd been strategically and secretly saving little by little for 10 years in this unhappy marriage, waiting for the opportunity to escape and start over. This incident gave me the chance and I took it. I got out, grew my business, reclaimed my freedom, and hoped I'd finally make a meaningful connection with someone more like me.

But I wonder if I'm built for meaningful human connection. I'm an INTJ with strong Machiavellian traits.

Jordan Harbinger: Ah, is it not Machiavellian or, oh, now you're gonna make go [00:12:00] Machiavellian. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: On this one? Yeah. Wow. Mm-hmm. This is Italian. This one is m Machiavelli. Machiavellian. Machiavellian. I'm an, I'm an INTJ with strong Machiavellian traits.

Yeah. Therapy. Lots of introspection and recent events have made this abundantly clear to me, so, okay. Quick pause for anyone who's not familiar with these, uh, Myers-Briggs. That's the test I think she's referring to, right? Myers-Briggs. Yeah. These personality types, which I know Jordan has done a skeptical Sunday about this test.

It's far from perfect. But the INTJ personality type is short for introverted, intuitive thinking, judging. Apparently these are people known for their strategic thinking, problem solving, independence, long-term vision, but they can also apparently seem aloof or dismissive and they can be perfectionists among other things.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. I am an ENTJ, but sometimes it also says I'm an INTJ too, depending on how much coffee I've had, which is sort of part of the reason I think the test is questionable, but the fact that she identifies with these qualities is good to know. So, okay, trans lesbian, I'm just [00:13:00] making sure I'm tracking this.

That means she was a man and she transitioned to being a woman and she dates or whatever, women,

Gabriel Mizrahi: right? That's right. Yep. Okay, so she goes on. I crave intimacy, but I view relationships as transactional. If the emotional or financial cost outweighs the benefit, I walk away without a second thought. I've been doing this since high school with friends, family, and romantic partners.

Since childhood, I've always valued my freedom and way of doing things. I loathe compromising my routines or my logic. I also absolutely hate the rituals of dating, wasting time and money on things that I feel don't matter. Deep down, I suspect I'm not capable of loving someone just for who they are. I need a reason to like someone.

As a result, I've maintained almost no deep, meaningful relationships in my life.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Okay. Well, I appreciate your candor. It's good to know yourself this well. I think we'll get into all this, I'm sure. While married,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I began visiting legal brothels with my wife's consent, as she quote, wanted to prioritize her career [00:14:00] over our relationship, but didn't wanna lose me.

I enjoyed those encounters so much that I started working at one part-time myself. It suits my personality. I treat encounters like a game, reading people strategizing, and getting as much money as I can from my quote unquote toys. It satisfies my need for intimacy and dominance and gives me nice extra income with little effort.

Unfortunately, the clients are all men, which limits my enjoyment, but still, I find it genuinely fun and extremely empowering.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow, fascinating. The toys thing is a little dark though. Toys. That's fascinating though.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The issue is I still want an intimate connection with someone I am attracted to. My circumstances make that nearly impossible.

The only things I have going for me are a profitable business, good health, and above average natural good looks. My business is located here, so I can't move unless I start over from scratch, which is too risky. I should quit my undercover. But legal sex work is well because if [00:15:00] it were discovered, it could devastate my business.

I've dated a couple people since my divorce, but end things as soon as I feel the benefits do not match the costs. I've also had a few casual hookups that worked well, but they're rare and I believe gonna get even rarer as my playmates and I get older, as most people my age are looking for something serious.

I honestly don't think I have the personality to invest in building such a relationship. The risk of being used for someone else's gain and losing my freedom is something I desperately try to avoid. I can't shake the idea that it's a doggy dog world and letting my guard down feels like a risky emotional investment with potentially little to no return.

At my age and with my personality, a future with a steady, intimate partner looks Bleecker and Bleecker. How does someone like me detached, freedom, loving and always running a cost benefit analysis? Find real intimacy. Is it worth sacrificing autonomy for connection when the risk of being used or losing my identity feels so high?

Should I keep dating [00:16:00] casually while I still can, knowing it may lead to long-term isolation, or should I accept that meaningful romantic relationships might not be for me and focus on maximizing independence, even if that means returning to paid intimacy and risking loneliness later? Is it realistic to hope for a partner who fits me signed feeling jittery about protecting my agility without ending up in captivity and losing my precious liberty when I need the flexibility to pursue all the possibilities?

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Quite a story. She's painted such a vivid and fascinating portrait of herself. I gotta say, she's really owning these personality traits, some of which are definitely challenging. Mm-hmm. And she's asking some really good questions. It's interesting, Gabe, these questions, they're ones that everybody asks, right?

Or at least tons of people. Totally. Am I gonna find someone? How do I partner without losing myself? Should I just go all in on myself and accept that I might be lonely sometimes? This is, yeah. This is universal. Right. Exactly. It's very universal stuff. Well said. So her circumstances [00:17:00] are unique. Yep. A trans woman living in rural Asia.

Mm-hmm. Highly enterprising, who also works in a brothel part-time or something. So

Gabriel Mizrahi: wild. What a double life that is, huh?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I, with these beliefs about people and these beliefs about herself. Yeah. She's

Gabriel Mizrahi: one of a kind, that's for sure. I've

Jordan Harbinger: never met anyone like this. No, that's for sure. So, okay, here's where I'm a little bit stuck.

She's saying, this is how I am. I'm detached. I value my freedom above all else. I'm always running a cost benefit analysis on people. I hate the rituals of dating. I'm self-sufficient. I'm not capable of loving someone just for who they are. Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But then she's also saying, I really crave true intimacy.

Right?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Right. But she's not asking us, are these qualities I can work on? Should I work on them? How do I work on them? Right. The rigidity she's describing, we're also seeing that in this letter, she's treating her personality

Gabriel Mizrahi: as very fixed and then trying to square that with being in a meaningful relationship, which kind of demands the opposite of [00:18:00] most of these qualities, I think.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if she believes her personality is fixed, which by the way, I believe she believes that. I believe she has some good reasons for believing, but if that's her stance, how can we actually help here? She already knows that having this lens is incompatible with intimacy, or at least it makes it very difficult.

We don't need to help her see that she's already got that, but if there isn't some openness to changing, then she's already kind of answered a lot of these questions.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right? Then I would say, yes, it's possible to find a partner who fits you, but it'll probably be harder than it is for most people, I would imagine.

And the relationship might not be as intimate as you say you want,

Jordan Harbinger: and also at least prepare to be hyper independent as you age and embrace solitude if giving these things up isn't doable. So,

Gabriel Mizrahi: okay, let's talk about some of those things, because like you said, the tension that she feels between wanting to experience true love and feeling like she's gonna lose her identity, that is a very universal fear, as we said.

I have that too. Honestly. [00:19:00] I think it's especially pronounced for people who really value their independence, who like being alone. Who wanna live life on their own terms, et cetera. But I think there's more to that story too. I'm wondering, has she dated people who have expected her to fundamentally change?

Has she been able to say to a partner, Hey, you know, this is what I need in order to be happy. I need to be my own person. I need this amount of time to myself, or whatever it is. Like what's going on inside of her that makes her feel like she needs to sacrifice such crucial parts of herself in order to be available to someone?

Because that is a very subtle process and it's complicated. Yeah. And I have to imagine that it involves her as much as it involves another person who seems to demand so much time and energy, or holds very different values from her.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I also wonder how her gender and her transition figure into that.

She's like, I don't wanna change fundamentally for someone else. And I'm wondering if she felt like she had to do that up until she transitioned. And so defending her right to be authentically her, maybe that's extra important to her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hmm. Good theory. But she's also said that she's been like this since she was a kid, or at least since high school.[00:20:00]

Jordan Harbinger: That's a good point. Okay. So maybe it's just who she is, but I still wanna acknowledge that her gender identity stuff probably informs a lot of this in ways that we might not fully understand. It's pr, I mean it's, I find it fascinating. But anyway, to your point, this isn't as simple as my identity will always be on the line no matter what.

There's always something about how she shows up in relationship that's also playing a big role. I do wonder what would happen if she went into a relationship going, okay, I'm gonna try to be available to this person without losing myself along the way. I'm gonna speak up if something's bothering me. I'm gonna maintain a lot of my schedule, my routines, my interests, and see what it's like to be with somebody and still be myself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And that is the fundamental tension, but the deeper issue is I think she's scared.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I mean, I was gonna say, which again is super interesting because she sounds quite courageous. Kind of a tough cookie. I'm getting that

Gabriel Mizrahi: impression. But also tough cookies can be very sensitive. You know, I do get the sense that underneath these rigid concepts, these militant beliefs, this whole, I need a good reason to love someone, and if it's not working for me, I leave first.

[00:21:00] Underneath all of that is a vulnerable person, just like we all are. Mm-hmm. She might want to consider whether all of these qualities and beliefs and patterns that she's told us about. Are in a way defenses against that vulnerability,

Jordan Harbinger: right? A way of coping with how exposed she feels to other people, et cetera.

And

Gabriel Mizrahi: probably, if I had to guess, maybe an adaptation to some potentially painful formative experiences early on and along the way,

Jordan Harbinger: there might slash must be some trauma in her past. Otherwise it wouldn't feel so urgent to protect herself in this way. It wouldn't feel so, I dunno. Fatal to really let someone in and potentially lower the walls.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, exactly. I wanna be clear about one thing though. I'm not trying to pathologize her love of freedom. Right. And desire for independence. Yeah. I'm not even saying that. Wanting to have good reasons to be in a relationship with someone is entirely wrong or bad. Yeah. I think that's actually kind of wise to a certain degree.

Jordan Harbinger: No, I hear you. But when those qualities are turned up to 11, yeah. You know when they

Gabriel Mizrahi: get in the way of the things that you say you want. Yeah. Then there's a problem.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. [00:22:00] When they generally move you away from other people instead of appropriately close to them, that's when it's time to go. Yeah. Okay.

There might be something for me to look at here, and I can't help but see that in the whole sort of brothel side hustle thing. Oh, yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, I mean, we gotta talk about that.

Jordan Harbinger: Obviously, I'm gonna tread lightly here because A, I don't know the, uh, ins and outs of that world and how it works and what it's like, especially in her country or in any country for that matter, and B, I'm about to use an intense word here.

I don't know if I mean it clinically, but there's something vaguely. Sociopathic about the way she describes her work at the Brothel. I'm not saying she's a sociopath, I'm just saying it's like kind of clinical at best. I think you meant sociopathic.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Sociopathic, yes. Yeah, sociopathic. That's right. Uh, no, quite, I mean, she said it's like a game reading, people strategizing, getting as much money as she can from, and she calls her clients her toys, which really is quite a sentence.

I mean, that's quite a

Jordan Harbinger: sentence.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: And again, I really appreciate how open she's being with us. It's making it

Gabriel Mizrahi: so much easier to dig into this with her. But it's,

Jordan Harbinger: I

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:23:00] mean,

Jordan Harbinger: it's

Gabriel Mizrahi: a

Jordan Harbinger: little disturbing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Definitely. What I find fascinating about this is she gets to be kind of a dom in this place, right? Sexually, financially.

And that role, that dynamic is she puts, it satisfies my need for intimacy.

Jordan Harbinger: But is that really intimacy? Treating these men who she's not into at all? Let's remember treating them like toys, literally. Right? Like an at tm so she can fund her Robin Hood account or whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What she's really saying is it satisfies my need for intimacy on my terms.

Yes. And intimacy entirely on one's own terms. You could debate this, but that isn't really true intimacy. Right, right. True. Especially if there's money involved. What it is is an orchestrated, calibrated, formalized form of connection, which is different.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. And that's what I'm kind of getting at here.

This side hustle is obviously playing a certain role for her and generates extra income. My sense is that it's allowing her to like microdose intimacy, big air quotes around the word intimacy there in a way that probably feels controlled or controllable. Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And in a way that feels safe.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And it's allowing her to [00:24:00] exercise this sociopathic part of her personality in a socially acceptable way.

Because a brothel, that's an environment. We're using people and being used and playing with power and exchanging money and all that stuff. That's all welcome there. All of that is recognized. It's part of the game, so it's okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, such a good point. But she experiences it as genuinely fun and extremely empowering.

So what do we do with that?

Jordan Harbinger: I'm sure it is, but it only kind of begs the question, what's fun about it? Where does the need to enjoy that kind of power come from?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point. And if she answered those questions, I think she would probably take a huge step toward answering all of these big questions that she entered her letter with.

Jordan Harbinger: I think so. And again, I'm using the term sociopathic generically off label as it were. I'm in no position to diagnose anybody with anything like that. I'm not saying that she has a true personality disorder at all, man. She might, but she might also not. Either way, as you were saying a moment ago, underneath whatever label you use, there are almost certainly some core wounds.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And until she gets a good handle on those and find some ways of healing [00:25:00] them, even a little bit, not just embracing them or nursing them or talking very clearly about them, or apparently sublimating them through entrepreneurship or sex work or solitude, but really unpacking them, which can only really happen in close relationships, right?

Either with friends or partners, or a therapist. I think she's probably gonna be stuck with this conflict. The conflict is not fixed, but it is very hard to resolve as long as the underlying wounds are not addressed.

Jordan Harbinger: She did say she went to therapy and learned a lot there, but an intellectual understanding of your personality that's different from a healing process.

Right. For sure. I'm curious to know if they got into this stuff in a real way, her childhood, her life experiences, her transition, what happened in her marriage. There's just so much to dig into here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, and I'm so curious to know what happened around high school, because that seems to be an inflection point for her.

She said something kind of developed right around then, so, huh. I'm just would love to know 14, 15, 16, what was going on. Yes. I would love for her to do that work. I just wanna touch on one other interesting thing in her story, which is money. She said the sex work gave her some extra [00:26:00] income. That's part of the draw.

Let's also remember that what led to her divorce, although it was apparently an unhappy marriage the whole time, so there's that. But what led to them splitting up was that her wife lost their life savings into scam. Mm-hmm. She used the money without telling her, which sounds like it was a very big betrayal, but also the reason she was able to leave the marriage was that she had been secretly saving money for 10 years, waiting for the opportunity to escape and start over.

Her words.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, but also like, wow, good plan that worked out for you. True. But she, so she had an escape hatch the whole time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The whole investment scam debacle gave her the opportunity to leave or maybe the pretext to leave and she took it

Jordan Harbinger: and reclaimed her freedom. Yes. Like she said. So yeah, money is a really, IM, it's really important to her here.

It symbolizes freedom and whatnot,

Gabriel Mizrahi: probably. And our society. Money is freedom, right? It's obviously, yes, of course. Highly useful. So there's a practical aspect to the money that makes perfect sense to me. But I suspect that the money is also precious to her psychologically, right? To your point, it represents freedom, and freedom is what she values most in the world.

And then earning money and [00:27:00] protecting money and using money the way she wants to, that is huge for her. But the way she's managed her money. It's also a secret, right? She secretly squirreled it away during her marriage. She secretly earns it at the brothel knowing that it's apparently a huge liability to her business.

Jordan Harbinger: Actually, she said it could devastate her business, which tells me she's willing to put a lot of stuff at risk in order to keep enjoying this part of her life.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So my theory is that there's a thrill associated with this money, not just because of the taboo nature of the sex work, but because that money is hers and hers alone, and it's earned through this very precious part of her personality, and also because only she knows about that money.

And it's fascinating. But you know, having secrets that no one else knows about is a very powerful way to shore up your personality and preserve your sense of self and create a whole inner world that no one else can touch, which probably feels crucial, maybe even sacred when it feels like that is constantly at risk of being taken away.

Jordan Harbinger: Damn. Yeah. Like I have this whole private universe no one will ever know [00:28:00] about. And the more I can cling to that, the less people can get in. Yes. And the lower the risk of losing who I am. Exactly. And you know what? I get that. I think we all have those parts of our personality that we tuck away, and sometimes they're shameful and sometimes they're comforting because they're ours.

So I can relate. But this isn't just, you know, I don't know weird thoughts or painful experiences. She hasn't opened up about, this is a whole part of her life that is apparently incompatible with other parts of her life. Right. Including potentially the one thing that she says she wants, which is a real partner.

Mm-hmm. Wow. Okay. A lot to talk about here. I hope that gives you a few ways into this process. These binds are in between freedom and intimacy. Between autonomy and connection between solitude and partnership. They're not ones we're solving here on a podcast, even this one, but we can only invite you to get more curious about what's underneath those conflicts and encourage you to seek out people and experiences like therapy that'll allow you to unpack them.

But I will say this, [00:29:00] your core beliefs that it's a dog eat dog world out there, that people are gonna take something precious from you. They do sound like projections of your deepest fears. Like you said, letting my guard down feels like a risky emotional investment with potentially little to no return the world out there, eh?

It's never just the world. It's also how we see the world and how we see the world is determined by our lenses on it, and those lenses are informed by our values and our cultures, and most importantly are individual histories. So the possibility of our lives, whether we can have all the things we want, that largely depends on taking a good look at those lenses, unpacking those histories, and being willing to step into very raw and potentially painful territory with other people.

For some people like you, that can be prohibitively scary and I just, I have a lot of compassion for that. But until you risk doing that, you probably won't get to experience the joy of trying things a new way. The joy of evolving, which is the only way I know of resolving these conflicts. Thanks for [00:30:00] sharing so much of yourself with us.

It's really nice to get to know you. Spend some time with you here. I hope you keep going and good luck. And now I'm going to share my little toys with you, the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Delete Me.

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That's OURA ring.com/jordan. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. It is your support of our sponsors that keeps the lights on around here, especially since I squandered all of my money in that investment. Skim to to learn more and get links to all the great discounts you hear on the show. So you can support the podcast.

You can visit Jordan harbinger.com/deals. They're all up there. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Alright, back to feedback Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What's next? Hey guys. I wrote to you last summer about getting emotionally involved with my coworker Bob, while in a long-term relationship with my first serious boyfriend.

That was the last letter on episode 10 37, by the way, so quick recap on this story. Our friend here and this guy Bob, connected at work, she had a boyfriend, he had a girlfriend, he also had kids, I believe, from a previous relationship. They developed this deep emotional connection that blurred some lines.

Apparently nothing physical ever happened between them, but they did meet up a few [00:33:00] times once with his kids actually. Then one night they ended up alone and she was like, yo, what is this thing between us? And Bob said that there was no point in continuing things because neither of them would ever leave their partners.

And that was pretty much the last time they spoke.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. And then she was asking us, I think, why Bob ended things so abruptly and whether she should tell her boyfriend what happened

Gabriel Mizrahi: and whether she should reach out to Bob for closure. Mm-hmm. Uh, sometime after, because they work in an industry where they might bump into each other and she wanted to end on good terms.

Jordan Harbinger: Right, right. And if I recall, we were like, eh, maybe take a beat. 'cause there might be a few motivations in wanting to reach out and it might not be necessary slash appropriate. Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Our take was the most important thing about the whole Bob chapter was understanding what he revealed about what she really wants and whether her relationship was the right one for her.

So she writes after the episode, my life took some interesting turns and boy, oh boy, you're in for a treat. Ooh, let's do it. As you advised me, I did tell my boyfriend about Bob. Yes, it was uncomfortable and painful, and in [00:34:00] the end we decided that it was probably best to go our separate ways. After three months, we met again and realized that we both hurt the relationship that we both had so much to work on, and we don't want to go through life with anybody else.

We got back together and it's been better than ever with a focus on communication and trust.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Okay. Sounds like you guys are putting in the work and doing things differently this time. That's really encouraging, but

Gabriel Mizrahi: my relationship is not what I'm here to talk about today. Okay. That was just the amuse Bo, I guess then fine.

Yeah. The amus dos. Yes. That's the case. Maybe she goes on. That's right. At the beginning of this year, I managed to get my dream job. I was extremely happy and proud of myself and ready to start this new chapter. I walk in on my first day and when I get to the room, I'll be working in and I'm shown the schedule.

I freeze. Whose name do I see on the same shift as mine? Drummer roll, please. Oh, man. Bob Bob's girlfriend.

Jordan Harbinger: Way worse way, way worse. Oh man. That [00:35:00] is a small world

Gabriel Mizrahi: in the worst way. Oh man. She was set to start a few weeks later, and I spent every one of those days in an anxiety spiral. What if Bob told her about me and I get a bitch slap when she walks in?

Mm-hmm. What if he didn't tell her about me? And then she finds out we work together and I have to navigate what I can say and what I can't safe to say. My first weeks at my dream job were a nightmare. Bob's girlfriend, let's call her Mimi. Finally joined, and lo and behold, our manager put us on a project together.

I tried to be friendly, but not too friendly and hold back any information regarding where I used to work. When she finally asked and found out I used to work with Bob, she seemed quite surprised because Bob Quote never mentioned me, unquote.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I bet he didn't. Oh, I don't know why I didn't tell you about the girl that I was thinking about leaving you for and had an emotional affair with at work.

Must have slipped My mind

Gabriel Mizrahi: relieved. I saw a scenario where we co-exist, but don't have to speak to each other too much Uhhuh. But the next day, Mimi sat right next to me. [00:36:00] We kept being put on projects together because we were working pretty well together. It's been three months, and it hurts me to say this, but we're really good friends now,

Jordan Harbinger: but that's what you get from being nice.

You should have a terrible bitch, and then they wouldn't have put you together. Wow, those two don't get along at all. Honestly, this is bananas. How does life do this stuff to us? Man,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I did not want to be her friend. I just wanted kidding to be civil. But we kept talking and sharing and now we're inseparable.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God. And meanwhile, she's just sitting there like, so your boyfriend and I were kind of in love and he almost broke up with you. For me, this is so stressful. I'm getting secondhand sweats.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I realized early on that she enjoys my company and I thought it would be rude of me to shut her off and push her away because she hasn't done anything to me.

My guilty conscience went, I wronged Mimi by allowing her boyfriend to disrespect her. So the least I can do is at least try to be a nice person to her.

Jordan Harbinger: Huh. Okay. That's an interesting take on what happened. I'm not sure that I totally agree. I mean, I get it. You got involved with her [00:37:00] boyfriend, things got messy.

You had a hand in this, but you didn't allow Bob to disrespect her. He was there too. Right. Mimi was his partner. He chose to get involved with you as well. I appreciate that you're taking accountability. You wanna be a kind person, but let's

Gabriel Mizrahi: be accurate. Yeah. Here she carries some guilt, but it's skewing her understanding of how it all went down.

Exactly. Yeah. I told my boyfriend about Bob and Mimi and he's the only person whose opinion about me matters. But I can't help but feel like an absolute piece of trash when Mimi shows me pictures of her kids, and I have to pretend. I don't know which one is which. I'm not gonna tell her anything about Bob.

It's not my place. It's up to him to decide whether he is gonna be truthful towards his girlfriend, but I'm tired of always feeling like a horrible person while I'm just trying to live my life the best I can.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, she's really beating herself up that that was a tough paragraph to hear.

Gabriel Mizrahi: How can I navigate this without hating myself every day?

How can I have a stable work life when every day Mimi comes in, I'm scared. She found out. How can I go through life thinking that I'm a decent person when I'm [00:38:00] basically lying to the person I spend the most hours in the day with signed feeling like a traitor, almost like I baited her for butting up to my neighbor when I was the invader Jordan.

I was thinking when I was working on this letter, we need a word for when a feedback Friday situation won't end. Like when you think the doozy is over, but then it just keeps coming back and I came up with one.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, you did? Okay. Let's hear it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: A dozer ring.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, I like that. A dozer ring. I thought you'd like that or like, uh, yeah, it's the second beat of the conundrum.

That's too Oh, that's too complicated though. I like dozer ring better. Actually. I do, but I like that one too. Cute. That's all I got. Wow. Anyway, we've hit our weekly limit on stupid ass puns, so Yeah, fair enough. Let's try and well sort of hit the limit. Let's try and catch this, do orang and yed it back to where it belongs and just pray it doesn't come back.

Honestly, this is kind of a tough one. I'm a little bit at a loss here, Gabe. She didn't ask for any of this. It was all in the rear view mirror, and now she's backed into kind of an awkward corner. Mm-hmm. So let me tackle the easy one first. I'm not sure you can have a totally chill work life [00:39:00] when you're panicked every day that Mimi found out and she's about to confront you and you're trying to read her facial expression before you say hello.

I think that sort of Damocles might always be hanging over your head as long as you guys work together, but couple things to keep in mind that might ease stress. The first thing is Bob clearly has not told her yet. He never mentioned you, so I think there's a decent chance that he will never tell her. I don't see why in God's name he would ever tell her.

I'm not saying you're completely outta the woods and it doesn't mean that hiding this from her is the right thing to do. The longer she works there and doesn't find out, the more confident you can be that your secret is safe. I would imagine

Gabriel Mizrahi: on the flip side though, the longer she works there without knowing the worse it's gonna be if she does find out.

Jordan Harbinger: That is true. And thanks for punching a huge hole in my main argument. Yes. Sorry, I'm trying to reassure this poor woman, and you're coming up with a wrecking ball,

Gabriel Mizrahi: old Gabe Cyrus over here. My bad. That's right. I'm gonna be quiet. Go ahead.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Well now that that fell apart, the other thing to keep in mind is if she ever did find out, you don't know exactly how she'd [00:40:00] react.

You're imagining the worst case scenario that she'd blame you for not telling her that she'd feel totally betrayed, which I get, and I think she might, I mean, you're her friend, but I think Bob would really get the brunt of this. Mm-hmm. He's her boyfriend, he's the one who got involved with you and yeah.

She might have some choice words for you. She might be angry and hurt. You guys might have to talk about that, but who knows? Maybe she'd see the difficult position you were put in here through no fault of your own, well, through mostly no fault of your own. And forgive you. Maybe she wouldn't be that mad when she learns.

This is a brief flirtation that didn't escalate to anything physical and you know, was in the past. Or she's gonna be freaking mad and it'll be a little rough, but it won't be the end of the world. And you guys will either work through it somehow or stay away from each other and just be professionals.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And how you talk to her, if that ever does come to pass and the way you handle this whole thing, that's gonna play a big role in the outcome too.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. You just don't know how this will go. So I would keep an eye on the tendency to imagine the absolute worst case scenario with no evidence. I mean, I can relate.

That is my favorite hobby, but I don't think you need to necessarily [00:41:00] do that now. You said that you're not gonna tell Mimi anything about Bob. It's not your place. So your mind is made up there. I think that's probably right. I do think he definitely has more of a responsibility to tell her, especially given that your emotional situationship with Bob never really blossomed into a full fledged affair, which would change the equation for me a little bit.

But let's be clear, if you've decided that the right thing is definitely to not tell Mimi, then you're also choosing to stay in this awkward position, in which case it really is on you to make peace with that. Except that some difficult conversations might result down the line. And forgive yourself preemptively.

It sucks, but you gotta be willing to live with the consequences, which again, are largely not your fault at this point. Now, that might not stop you from hating yourself, but it might help you not to feel like such a POS for staying quiet. And that's another thing you said. You're lying to Mimi. I get it.

You're lying by omission. But given the circumstances here, I think that's a different category of lie. If she came to you, like, did you have an emotional thing with Bob and hang out with his kids? And you were like, what? No, [00:42:00] that's a lie. That's a bald face lie. What you're doing here is just not sharing a story that you feel is primarily not yours to share.

I'm not saying it's not dicey, but I don't think these two things are equivalent. So in my view, you are way less of a monster than you maybe feel right now. But Gabe, I don't know. Now I'm gonna stress her out again. What happens when Mimi brings Bob and or their kids to some work event, and the kids are like, Hey, I remember you.

You and Daddy took us to the aquarium that day.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh man, I don't know. Hide in the bathroom. Run the other way.

Jordan Harbinger: No, flush yourself down the toilet. More

Gabriel Mizrahi: like, I

Jordan Harbinger: mean, that

Gabriel Mizrahi: is serious. Let's hope that never happens. Oh man, this I know. Yeah. This is really tricky because they're genuinely friends now. I know it sucks.

If they were just colleagues and they were kind of neutral about each other and they didn't have to interact very much, I would completely agree with you, but they're tight now. They're inseparable. She said.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, another solution is just to pull back and be less close with Mimi, and she might wonder why, but you don't have to tell her, and then at least you're not being a hypocrite also an

Gabriel Mizrahi: option.

I think this ultimately comes down to the quality of their friendship and the quality also of [00:43:00] Mimi's relationship with Bob. Although, to be honest, that's not really our friend. Here's business. If she were saying, look, turns out Mimi is amazing and she's the BFF I've always wanted, and we're like sisters now, and I see us being friends forever.

That's a really hard situation. Then I might have to disagree with you, Jordan, and say, I don't know if you can maintain that friendship and not tell her about what happened. Same thing with Mimi and Bob. If they're having problems, if they don't seem like the right fit, long term, I don't know. Maybe it's more okay for our friend here to tell her what happened, although I would really wanna make sure I had a good handle on that before spilling the tea and it's still not really her business.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But if that were the case, then it might be because he had this emotional affair with our friend,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but he might have had this emotional affair because they're not the right fit.

Jordan Harbinger: Or he might be the kind of guy who might have emotional affairs with a number of people. True. Because he's not really committed to his relationship with Mimi, or he needs validation, or he is got an ego issue or he is insecure.

I mean, I don't know. Maybe she deserves to know. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Which would also make our friend here, not the main villain.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, okay. It's a little confusing. It's [00:44:00] very confusing. I'm not sure. Can we toss the Dos Orang back and just say We tried? Is that fair? We could, yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, next, look, maybe I'm introducing an element here that is just not helpful.

I guess it depends on how much this other stuff matters to you, but I do think that the quality of your friendship with Mimi is a big factor here where I'm landing on all of this. What I'm trying to say is, if you guys are crazy about each other and there's a very deep special bond between you and your friendship is more meaningful than the one that she has with Bob, potentially, then you might have to come clean.

Although I don't know how good the prospects are for that friendship at that point, but that might be the only way to honor a really great friendship. I'm not sure you're there yet. It just sounds like you guys are unusually close for colleagues, and if you absolutely refuse to tell her, then you can't be that close with her like Jordan said.

And you have to be very thoughtful about how much contact you have and how close you guys really get. Beyond that. If Mimi ends up finding out, then I just think you have to deal with it then. And if that ever happens, maybe you say, look, I knew this day might come. I've been tied up in knots about it. I know you're probably really angry, really hurt.

I totally understand. I thought about this a [00:45:00] lot. I have my reasons for not telling you myself, and if you're open to hearing them, I would like to share them with you. But when you're ready to talk, we can do that. And then you guys talk it out or you don't, and you accept the outcome, whatever it is, and it's gonna suck.

But. It'll be okay.

Jordan Harbinger: I think that's right. I think what her letter might actually be about is learning how to surrender to an objectively bizarre and crappy situation. Yeah. That she has little control over. And as we talk about all the time, learning how to tolerate the difficult feelings that might get stirred up by all this stuff come into light a lot of life is just that knowing you weren't entirely right, you weren't entirely wrong, but you did your best and you were exposed.

But that being exposed is not fatal. But you only learn that by going through a situation like this and finding out that you can survive and then taking the lesson and applying it forward so you don't end up in a similar situation again. Worst case scenario, Mimi hates you. Maybe word travels around the office, maybe.

In the meantime, keep breathing. Stay true to your values. Keep checking in with yourself about what feels right. You always know deep down what you gotta do, and I know you'll handle it the right way or at [00:46:00] least the least bad way. And good luck. You could reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise.

Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you can't seem to give up on a paranoid cocaine addict accusing you of cheating your friend's love of restaurant menus is ruining your relationship, or you're launching a coup against an entitled family member who's compromised your family's thriving business, whatever's got you staying up at night lately.

Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, our newsletter is just a huge hit with you all. I love writing it. It's a lot of fun to see your feedback. It's delivered most Wednesdays. It's a two minute read. A lot of wisdom from our episodes that you can apply to your life.

I invite y'all to come check it out. You can sign up at Jordan harbinger.com/news. All right. What's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a federal employee and less than a year ago, I started a job as a power plant operator. Since this administration came in, they've been slashing jobs left and right. It's now a possibility that I'm on the chopping block as well, even as [00:47:00] a critical component of our power grid, which sucks because federal power plants are the most sought after jobs in this industry, and my military service time counts toward retirement.

There. My agency has offered me a resignation package that would continue to pay my salary until September of this year. They would also allow me to work a new job at the same time. Meanwhile, a power plan in New York City has expressed interest in me and is just waiting to see if I take this fork in the road, if I take this resignation package, I'll have to sell my home and move my wife and myself across the country.

If I don't take it, there's a chance that I would be let go anyway. Are there any legal options or implications I should be considering here? What would you do? Head your bets, move and collect double paychecks for six months, or stick around and take your chances as a federal employee signed a Doge dodgen dude deciding what to do when I haven't got a clue which move is the most shrewd.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, good question. It's a tough one, man. A lot of uncertainty here. We're hearing from a lot of federal employees [00:48:00] these days who are in your shoes with Doge and all that, and they're, they're all asking similar questions. I'm sorry you're going through it. I know the stress must be doing a number on you, but you're also in a better position than most, and this could work out well.

We wanted to run all this by an expert, so we reached out to Justin Schnitzer, managing partner of federal law, a law firm specializing in federal employment cases. And the first thing Justin wanted you to know was that you're probably in a high priority area of the government, so there's a strong chance you're unlikely to get cut.

In his view, it seems like the government needs people like you for national infrastructure. Obviously all of these are on a case by case basis, especially right now, so it's hard to know who's likely to get cut, but people working for power plants, nurses, doctors, folks like that in Justin's experience, these are people who are probably not getting cut because, well, it would cause serious outrage and the public needs these people in a real sense, not some theoretical sense.

We're talking about, you know, keeping the lights on, heating people's homes, keeping cities functioning, staffing hospitals. No guarantees at all, of course, but that's something to consider [00:49:00] Now in terms of the legal stuff. One thing Justin said to keep in mind is that unions are still challenging whether the administration has the authority to offer these resignation programs at all to put people on paid leave for that amount of time and encourage them to go work while still getting paid.

Now, Justin said he doesn't know what the courts will decide there. Apparently, Congress probates the money for certain functions and generally it hasn't been appropriate to put people on long-term leave. Justin also said there are limits to how much administrative leave they could even give someone, and that's covered by statutory and regulatory provisions.

The other thing Justin would encourage you to think about is whether this resignation package includes any waivers. For example, the agencies might say, we're offering you this deal, but you have to relinquish your right to pursue legal actions against the government in exchange for continued pay and benefits.

So if you have any potential lawsuits, you're thinking of bringing discrimination failure to accommodate you because of a disability, stuff like that. You might have to waive any of those rights. You didn't mention that in your letter, but it's something to think about. But for people who think they're gonna be imminently terminated and need a few months of reprieve, Justin said that [00:50:00] it might be worth hedging their bets.

It really depends on what area of the government you're in, how you think the terminations are coming for you. If you have any rights, you'd be giving away. Justin's feeling is if you're in a position where you're not gonna sue and you don't have outstanding complaints, eh, accepting a package could very well be a good idea.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, and this probably doesn't apply to you, but for any other listeners who are federal employees and might be close to retirement, accepting a resignation package might be worth it if you're on the way out anyway. But look, all the Doge stuff aside, the legal stuff aside, you're facing the question that so many people at a crossroads face, which is, do I take road A or do I take road B when I just don't have all the information?

And there is no clear answer there. I think the best advice we can give you is this. First of all, you gotta make peace with uncertainty, and you have to start getting comfortable with making decisions on incomplete information. You know, you can't know what Elon Musk is thinking or what your agency is planning, or what New York will actually be like until you move there or any of those things.[00:51:00]

So take stock of the information you do have and make educated assumptions and talk to as many people as possible so you can get as many opinions as possible. But know that you'll never reach 100% certainty before making a decision, and that is okay. You don't need to in order to make the right choice, I promise you, because there's no perfect outcome in life anyway, right?

And the second thing you gotta do is you have to get clear with yourself about what your goals are, what your needs are, what is most important to you. I know we talk about this all the time, but it's so easy to forget.

Jordan Harbinger: Honestly. I would sit down with your wife, talk this out loud in detail, write down all the variables here, salary, type of work, location, stability, adventure, risk, opportunity, all of them in factor in the stuff Justin just shared with you.

Then I would rank them in order of importance, talk through all the upsides and the downsides of each path. Get clear on which benefits you want the most, which costs you can live with. And then, yeah, you gotta make a calculated decision while also listening to your gut. I promise if you do that, you can't go wrong.

Doesn't mean sticking around or moving to New York won't be [00:52:00] challenging. They'll each serve up their own unique costs, I'm sure. But I actually find that comforting in a weird way. 'cause if you're gonna pay a price either way, and if you're gonna enjoy certain benefits either way, then you're a lot freer.

There's no perfect decision. There's only a decision that reflects your interests and needs at this moment based on the information that you have.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. And I would add that the quality of your outcome either way is really going to depend on how you navigate this, how you show up in a new job, how you collaborate with these forces in your industry.

How you build relationships. What attitude do you bring to this move? How you take care of your family, how you rely on them during this transition. Whether you would enjoy living in New York, for example. That is one big variable that is under your control, and it'll play a huge role in your success either way.

So don't forget that either.

Jordan Harbinger: A hundred percent. I think a lot of times people focus on the external stuff when they're trying to make the right decision, but the internal stuff is just as important, maybe even more important. 'cause so much of life is not about what happens, it's about how you react to it, right?

So salary and [00:53:00] pension and location and risk. Yeah, all that matters, of course. But cultivating the right mindset, the right spirit, which includes getting comfortable with this uncertainty and learning to go with the flow. To some degree, that's a superpower in situations like this. I'm sorry you're facing all this, but I also know that these crises often reveal hidden opportunities, so keep looking for those and trust that life might be putting you on an even better path, whichever way you decide to go.

And good luck. Big thanks to Justin for his experience and wisdom. Here. You can learn more about Justin and his work at Fed a Law. That's fed elaw.com. He practices nationwide for federal employees and it looks like he's achieved some pretty great outcomes for his clients. Speaking of keeping the lights on, your support of our sponsors is what does that for us, so stick around.

We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Shopify. When I first kicked off this podcast, I had to figure out every single detail on my own. The scripts, the tech setup, figuring out the schedule, the logo is all super overwhelming. When you're launching something, that to-do list just keeps expanding and it can really start taking over your entire life.

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Jen Harbinger: Turn your big business idea into with Shopify on your side. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today@shopify.com slash Jordan. Go to shopify.com/jordan shopify.com/jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Nord vpn. When you're on the internet, are you really browsing [00:55:00] freely and safely with all the online threats, the censorship, the surveillance?

It's a bit of a wild west thing out there. That's where Nord, VPN comes in. You wanna watch a sporting event or a TV show that's not available in your region? Nord, VPN lets you switch your virtual location and access content from other countries. More importantly, Nord VPN protects your private data, your bank details, your passwords, your online identity, especially when you're traveling, you're hopping onto public wifi.

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Our link will also give you four extra months on the two year plan. There's no risk with Nords 30 day money back [00:56:00] guarantee. The link is in the podcast episode description box.

Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by the defender. You ever meet somebody and instantly know they've been places that calm and chaos?

I've driven through a storm and found the sunrise kind of energy. That's the defender in vehicle form. It's not just a car, it's a statement. And nod to the ones who don't wait around for life to hand them an adventure. They go and get it. And whether you're a seasoned trailblazer or just figuring out how to swap city limits for tree lines, the defender is built to back you up.

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If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable over at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

If that doesn't work, email usJordan@jordanharbinger.com. We are happy to dig up codes for you. [00:57:00] Thank you for supporting those who support the show. It really does keep us going and it makes it possible to continue creating these episodes week after week. Okay, back to feedback Friday. Alright, time for the recommendation of the week.

I am addicted to Lit Filler. Of course you are. Maya, recommendation of this week is Wayfinders. So Wayfinders is a travel group essentially for entrepreneurs and business owners. A travel group is kind of a. It's not quite all we do. We have meetings and Master Mindy type stuff and we do travel to amazing places.

You probably heard me mention some of these wild trips that I've been on in the past. Bhutan, the Amazon Jungle, Peru, Laos, Morocco. This year I'm heading to Patagonia. People have asked me before, you know, what makes you go to these places? Wayfinders. I said Mastermind before. This is not a typical annoying mastermind group.

It's not a corporate retreat. It's more like hitting control alt deletes on your life. In some ways. You're tracking across the Himalayas, you meditate with monks and Bhutan, if you're into that tracing incense routes through the Arabian [00:58:00] Desert. But you're doing it with a small, very highly curated group of founders and creators and big thinkers.

There's no touristy buses, there's no sort of surface level networking stuff. Real people, real conversations. I mean, you talk more with these people on these trips 'cause you're hiking up a mountain than you would talk to your friends and family over the course of a year. Mostly. It's really good deep connection and it's been awesome to be a part of it.

Gabe, you know how this is, you and I went to North Korea together. Wayfinders would not take us to North Korea, which is probably the right decision, but trips like that, they just bond people in a way that a cocktail mixer or a conference could just never do. There's just something very cool that happens when you step away from the noise.

You get off the grid, you get out in nature, away from meetings and inboxes, and you're just talking to other interesting people. Every time I come back from one of these, I feel clear and grounded and reset and excited for life. So if that speaks to you a little bit, go check 'em out way finders.com.

Submit an application. It's a process. I have no [00:59:00] idea how the curation works at all, but if you're a business owner or entrepreneur, I highly recommend doing it. Everybody there is just a, an awesome person, and I've made made some lifelong friends in the group.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, so Jordan, uh, I'm not sure if I told you this, but I went to this dance workshop last weekend.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah. I did see something on Instagram and I was like, okay, mental note to roast Gabe Mercilessly for this

Gabriel Mizrahi: later. I literally walked in there like, I can't wait to tell Jordan about this so he can just filet me on the show. It was, it was kind of peak ridiculous, Gabe. Yeah, it sounds

Jordan Harbinger: like it, was it fun though?

I mean, what is, what's the deal? So I

Gabriel Mizrahi: have to tell you about this experience because I can't stop thinking about it. So I don't know. I think you know that several months ago I started going to these like, I don't know what to call them. It's not a dance class where you're like in front of a mirror with choreography.

It's more just kind of like a dance party. Okay. Led by a fairly well-known dance instructor who's, her name is Kate. She's from London. She's wonderful, very unusual, very special person. She does this cool class that's like, it's a mix of. Open-ended dancing, moving [01:00:00] meditation, and then she has a microphone where she's kind of like doing an improvised sermon while you're dancing.

Oh my, one of my biggest fears until recently was dancing in front of other people, especially in the daytime sober, completely sober, which, you know, like I don't really drink, so there's not much of an opportunity to cut loose or whatever. Sure. One of these dance classes got me over that like in 30 minutes.

Really? Yeah. It kind of cured me of it, which has been really weirdly therapeutic and very fun. So my friend Ti is the one who started inviting me, and recently he told me that she was doing the same thing, but it was gonna be a two day workshop from like 11 to five. So it was gonna be some dancing, but it was also gonna be exercises and meditations.

Like a whole thing. Yeah. And the theme of this weekend was zero. It was like the organizing principle was like emptiness and fullness. I didn't fully understand it, but Sure. Anyway, we get there. I've been to the studio a bunch of times. I know a lot of the people, but it was different this time. And when we arrived in the center of the room was a huge circle, like a massive hula hoop kind of.

Crosstalk: Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And when we [01:01:00] started dancing, she started playing music and everyone's just doing their thing. Everyone is invited to dance around the void or jump into the void or just like contemplate the void. But um, I was having a really rough day that day. I injured my knee really badly a few days before. And as you know, I have like a to-do list a mile long for the big move.

And I'm in a room full of people who are like. These people, Jordan, are the opposite of you and me in terms of just like, they're kind of like grownup theater kids, Uhhuh,

Jordan Harbinger: I can see them being the opposite of me, but

Gabriel Mizrahi: you are also there. So I mean, they don't know. I mean they're more, they're more opposite from you than they are from me at this point.

But I was definitely the out the outsider in this group. Okay. I mean, I don't know a lot of them, but my sense is that they're like very open, vulnerable, touchy feely people, which was actually kind of inspiring to be around. But they're kinda like, they seem like theater kids who grew up or summer camp kids.

I was never a summer camp kid. And they are Okay. So pumped to be there, dude. They're just like way more liberated than me. They're ready to go from the moment they get there and I'm in this, I'm in the corner, like I'm like a cat, you know? Like I need to warm [01:02:00] up a little bit. I see. But anyway, that day I was particularly not feeling it and I wasn't exactly present.

So anyway, day one after lunch, we come back and they have a circle up around the circle that I just told you about. Yeah. And one by one, the teacher invites us to walk into the circle. Have some kind of experience or express something or leave something behind. You have like 30 seconds to a minute to do like your little thing.

Oh man, you're allowed to talk, but you don't have to. You can also just make it movement based. I can't really even remember the prompt. I was kind of confused. This is my worst nightmare,

Jordan Harbinger: by the way. Drowning in a cave underwater. And this, yeah. This is

Gabriel Mizrahi: why I wanted to talk to you about it because you know this about me as well.

I hate forced vulnerability.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Hate, hate. Same here. This is, oh, I'm getting a little, I feel fake funny thinking about having to

Gabriel Mizrahi: do this. Yeah, no, thank you. Clearly I like opening up when it's on my terms, but, or if I'm in a safe group, I know the people and everyone's kinda on the same frequency, but when someone else is making me do it [01:03:00] and it's part of a formal exercise and there's some kind of expectation that you go there and you have some big experience, no.

I just shut down. Yeah. I felt it more profoundly that day than I ever have ever, like every wall in my heart goes up, you know? And I just kind of freeze.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. We had to do some of this on the Wayfinders trip that I just talked about. Nothing like this. I mean, these are, they're sharing circles and stuff like that, and it's a little challenging for me sometimes, and it takes me a couple days to open up or whatever, but it actually ended up being really cool.

If you're in a group that's cool with people you trust, it can be great. But yeah, the hula hoop dance thing, that's, that's on another level. That's another level. Yeah. Yeah. But

Gabriel Mizrahi: it is weird when you don't know the people and there are a lot of people, 'cause there were like 40 or 50, maybe 40 people.

Jordan Harbinger: That's very stressful.

And I find that people can get very performative. Yes. 'cause you have an audience

Gabriel Mizrahi: then that's not just a small circle of people. Yes, exactly. So when I tell you that I was dreading, yeah. My turn on this exer, like I was in agony uhhuh and I was like, dude, what am I gonna do? Like, can I fake a seizure and leave right now?

Yes you, I mean you can to be fair. Yes. That's a great idea. That's a great, [01:04:00] to be fair, the teacher, I just want to give her credit. She was like, if you don't want do it, just tap the person next to you. You can go. Which was nice. But I didn't want to be the guy who was like, I'm not doing it. 'cause nobody else declined.

Yeah. But I was like, what do I do? What are my options here? You know, fling yourself from the top of the

Jordan Harbinger: building out

Gabriel Mizrahi: the window. At that moment, that seemed preferable to what I had to do. So yes, sitting in that circle, knowing my turn was coming. You know when you're sitting in the middle and you're just watching each person go in as getting sweatier and sweatier as they go around your Yes.

Top five worst moments of my life, for sure, truly. But I was really making an effort to stay open. You know, like I had all these judgements and opinions about what was happening and the people and why were they having these experiences. And I wasn't feeling it, but I was like, look dude, you're already here.

You can decide later what to make of all this. Just do your best participate. Try not to judge it. 'cause you know, when you judge something before you even do it, just because you're uncomfortable, then you're guaranteed to get nothing out of it. So I didn't wanna do that, you know? I appreciate that that's the right attitude since

Jordan Harbinger: you already, you know, wasted your money on that

Gabriel Mizrahi: bullshit [01:05:00] and everything.

Okay. So I'm sitting there waiting for my turn. I'm having a low grade panic attack for sure, man. Yeah. People are going in there and they are doing these interesting dances and having these super, seemingly super profound experiences. I'm not gonna say much about them 'cause I, you know, I wanna be respectful to people, whatever.

But just like it's out there stuff, it's almost like, mm-hmm. I would say it's akin to, what is that called? Chair therapy. I don't know. What is that? When people like yell at an absent parent in an empty chair as part of those, like wor, it was kinda like that vibe. Oh gosh. But anyway, finally it's my turn and I'm like, what am I gonna do?

I hate this. I hate this so much. I don't want, I could barely dance a few weeks ago and now I have to do this in front of all these people. Right. So I walk into the circle. I am half dissociated at this point. Like I'm watching myself from the ceiling out of body experience. Yes. Humiliated. I can feel everyone's eyes on me and I'm kind of mortified and I'm just like, well, I'm not gonna pretend that I'm having some deep experience I'm not having.

So I just walked into the circle [01:06:00] and I just stood there. It was probably the most boring thing that anyone had seen that day. And I just like, closed my eyes and I just, I thought about my trip and how grateful I am to be doing this and you know, like stepping into a new chapter. You know, just like, how long do I have to stand here?

So it looks like I gave this a shot, but not so long that I embarrassed myself unnecessarily. You know?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Just nice. Just show your work. At least get some points for that. Just long enough so people don't think you're being a dick. I can relate. Yes. And then in your head, you're like, 10 more seconds now.

Five more. Nah, I'm just done. I'm done. I'm done. Exactly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It was like writing down the equations in physics when you didn't know how to do the problems and you're like, oh, he's gonna gimme some points for this, right?

Crosstalk: Yes. And then I just capped

Gabriel Mizrahi: it off with a little yoga nama. Stay hands bowed my head.

Always a safe bed. Always a fan favorite. That's true. That's right. That this was, you definitely read the room on that one. And then I went back to my seat and stared at the floor, just avoiding eye contact. My face was beet red, I'm sure. While the rest of people went, I'm and I left that first day. In a really weird mood.

Like I was a little angry and I was kind of just vaguely, not vaguely, [01:07:00] pretty uncomfortable and disappointed. I was like, why is, what am I missing here? By the way, I had half a mind to not come back for day two. Yeah. I

Jordan Harbinger: would've, I mean, well, what am I saying? I never would've gone to day one, but yeah, I, I get it.

I get not wanting to come back for day two,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but Etie did tell me when I left day one last year, I also didn't want to come back and I'm so glad I came back for day two. So I was like, interesting. That's good data. 'cause he and I are wired pretty similarly. So I wake up the next morning, my knee is feeling better, I'm feeling a little better, and we get there, we start dancing, which is my favorite part.

It's way more fun than the exercises. But then they break for lunch again and we come back and the room is different this time. Oh no. Now the circle void thing is set up vertically, so it's like a ring you have to walk through and they have a circle up again, and one by one. Everyone has to walk through it and say, I am blank.

Like something, fill in the blank, whatever it is, out of the pan and

Jordan Harbinger: into the fire.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I would've preferred to be taken out of a boiling pan and thrown into a [01:08:00] raging fire than has to, yeah, you still have the window option that I mentioned earlier. Just fling right through it. I would literally rather do any of those things than walk through a make believe portal.

And declare my truth or whatever. However, hippie and crazy you think I am. This is not my jam.

Jordan Harbinger: Again, literally a nightmare. I gotta say, this is a really nice antidote to all your woowoo, hippie dippy stuff on the show. I would've thought you'd take to this kind of thing, like a duck to water. Honestly, I thought you'd be like the most, not really refreshing experience.

I got to interpretive dance my way through some stuff I was working on

Gabriel Mizrahi: the dance party stuff I'm into, but it's the artificiality of some of the exercises. Yeah. Is hard. It's impossible for me. It's funny because you and I both have done much more intense stuff than this in much weirder places. This was by far one of the hardest things I've ever had to do.

So again, we go around in a circle, and again, I'm panicking and people are walking through the portal void. Like it's such a caricature of what you're imagining. Like, again, I don't want to say specifics, but people are saying things like, you know, I am healed. I am, you know, [01:09:00] worthy of love. I am ending this generational trauma, or what?

I mean like tears, laughter, okay. It is raw. It's very raw in the room at this point.

Jordan Harbinger: But I also feel like you're describing your order at Cafe Gratitude if people know this,

Gabriel Mizrahi: that's hilarious. That's actually what the teacher said to her. Again, to her credit, she was aware of how absurd this was on some level, which is good.

Okay. One of the things I like about her, but she did say, I know this is gonna sound like we're going to Cafe Gratitude. Yes. But this is the exercise.

Jordan Harbinger: So Cafe Gratitude for all those who don't live in la, which is most of you, it's this kind of like. Gabe, is it fair to say bougie vegan restaurant? Yeah.

Where all the dishes are named and I quote, I am something. Yeah. So you'll, instead of saying like, I'll have the Satan fake egg white omelet, you say, I am abundant, I am humble and I want the, I mean, I am green juice or whatever it is. Yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah. I am whole is another one.

Jordan Harbinger: Yep. Yeah. It's so cringey and so the food's pretty good and the ambiance is pretty dope and that's why you put up with the dumb names, but it It is, yeah.

[01:10:00] Cringe is exactly what it is.

Gabriel Mizrahi: They also do the question of the day there. Do you know about that?

Jordan Harbinger: I do. Where the waitress is like tells you to basically meditate on something. The place is so extra. The waiter server, I should say, comes to your table. They're like, the question of the day is,

Gabriel Mizrahi: what

Jordan Harbinger: are

Gabriel Mizrahi: you manifesting?

Yeah. What are you manifesting? What

Jordan Harbinger: are you creating? I'm creating an appetite, Luna. Now let me order the abundant bowl and get on with my life. And can I have some coffee? Do you still have coffee here or is it gonna be made out of like a random milk?

Gabriel Mizrahi: But also sometimes the waiters don't ask you the question of the day unless you ask them for it, which I actually do appreciate.

Some of them are over it. That waiter was getting a

Jordan Harbinger: 20% tip just for skipping. That BS the question of the day. No, you're just hungry. Okay. Yeah. Cool, man. What you want?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Funny thing about Cafe Gratitude, a barista there once offered to read my tarot cards. Of course, unprompted,

Jordan Harbinger: of course. That is the least surprising thing I've ever heard about Cafe Gratitude.

So people are, people are walking through the void, they're healing their generational trauma, and you're, yep. Slowly unlacing your shoelaces or what?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Basically, oh, oh, [01:11:00] I almost forgot this. I must have blocked this part out. When you walk through the portal and then you say your thing on the other side, one of the facilitators hands you a red rose Uhhuh like well done.

And welcome to your new reality, and then you take your place in the circle again with your rose.

Jordan Harbinger: A rose just for like maximum embarrassment or I know. I was like, what is this?

Gabriel Mizrahi: The Bachelor? Just let me say my stupid little catchphrase and dissociate in the corner in peace. Just to like reflect on all of my poor choices leading up to this moment.

I don't need a Valentine's Day gift for phoning it in. Yeah, it was sweet, but it was, it just made the whole thing worse for me.

Jordan Harbinger: There's also something about being handed a red rose as a man. I know I have antiquated gender ideals or whatever, but I can't explain why. It's just vaguely humiliating somehow.

I don't know. I get that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's weird though. We should be able to enjoy pretty things as men, but you just feel ridiculous holding flowers as a man. Sure. Unless you're an actor in a play or something. And even then I would feel weird.

Jordan Harbinger: Well also didn't, the definitely not gay fascist Indian guy, handsome flowers to the super openly gay ballerina on the date [01:12:00] that they actually Yeah.

You didn't have any problem with the flyers. Yeah. Now he had no problem with it. Maybe we should learn something from him. Uh, that was a few months ago on feedback Friday, for those of you who don't catch the reference. Okay. So if you're an actor though, you would've loved this workshop, which is why this stuff happens in la.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's true, that's true. I'm not an actor, so that might explain it. So again, though, this is the reason I wanted to tell you about this, is that most of the participants seem to be having these very real intense experiences. Okay. Like I said, they're laughing, they're crying, people are shouting and, and I'm just standing there.

I'm like, am I on being punked or something like, yeah, I'm so confused. Why are you guys able to do this so easily? Did this workshop start a week ago and I missed the first six days.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. I know what you mean. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Because all of you are like at the emotional finish line and I'm still trying to figure out what the exercise is.

It was strange.

Jordan Harbinger: I know exactly what you mean. Some people's emotions are very close to the surface, right? I am not one of those people. Surprise, surprise. I don't think you are either. Especially. You're in touch with your feelings. You're vulnerable a lot of the time, but you're not one of those people who's like, [01:13:00] watch me cry about my withholding dad in public.

Right. I need to release. I feel like you're pretty judicious about who you share

Gabriel Mizrahi: that stuff with. Yeah. I'm just not that way. But the other people did seem more that way. They were more keen. Mm-hmm. So, and look, if this workshop is helpful for them, I think it's great. It's wonderful. Sure. I just couldn't get, I couldn't even start.

And that might be a me thing, but what gets a little weird though is you see other people really go for it. Like they swing for the fences with their parts. Right. And the facilitators and the other participants light up. Like people are really like excited and proud of them and they're like super supportive and validating.

But meanwhile, all I can think of is like, I am pretty sorry for how bad mine is gonna be. Like, I can already tell you're gonna be disappointed with mine.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But that's part of my beef. With programs like this, the barometer isn't always value or growth or authenticity. It's Did you say the super crazy thing loud enough?

Or go on about the horrible thing long enough. Whenever I've had to do stuff like this, I've noticed that as long as you use a certain kind of language and you commit [01:14:00] hard enough, you get validation from the other participants and the facilitators, and it creates this social pressure to have a similar experience.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, the social pressure is part of what I was struggling with and I was kind of aware of that. But again, you have to understand, I was working so hard to stay open while I'm having this, these, these thoughts. Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: I get it. You don't wanna write the whole thing off from the start. That's probably wise.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, so finally it's my turn. I walk across the room to the portal thing, again, panicking until the last possible second about what I'm gonna say and racking my brain, like what is it gonna be? What is it gonna be? And I walk through the void thing and I say, I am available. Huh?

Jordan Harbinger: I am available. That is, oh man.

I know. It's so, it could go a lot of directions with that is

Gabriel Mizrahi: so lame. But I literally, I literally couldn't think of anything and I was just like, I'm available for whatever the world wants to, I don't know. I wonder what that bowl is. A cafe gratitude. I am available. I'll take the available. Can you hold the cheese?

Yeah. Yeah. That's probably just like a bowl of brown rice and some steamed veggies with lots of empty space or [01:15:00] something. If my interstate in that moment was any indication, the only thing I can think of right now are gross

Jordan Harbinger: jokes that are way out of character and off brand for this podcast. But yeah, the I am available is definitely the blandest thing on the menu,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but I was trying to say was, look, I don't know how I feel.

Nothing has changed for me this weekend. I'm just open to whatever life throws at me, including this weird workshop, you know, like I'm receptive. Which, ah, that's worse actually.

Jordan Harbinger: That's even worse. But it is in line with the things I was thinking about saying that are off-brand for this podcast.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Anyway, I go through, the facilitator gives me a nice smile.

She and I are bud, so I didn't take it personally, but I, like I said, she, mine was not her favorite part of the day. I knew that. Yeah. And I take my rose, which I definitely did not earn.

Crosstalk: Mm-hmm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: By the way, which only made holding it feel worse. And I sit back down and immediately I'm like, did it just sound like I was saying I'm single?

Like, did I just proclaim to the room like, Hey ladies, I'm available. Yeah, ladies. Anyway, you don't know how I said it so you actually dunno that true, that was the subject. That's that's true. No, the receptive part was also a little bit more, well anyway, it was a very [01:16:00] masculine, I am available just for the record.

I believe you so cringe. I'm having second. I just have to tell you, I'm having a second wave of dance shame as I'm telling you about all this. But anyway, after all that, the teacher plays some chill music and everyone's invited to just kinda like dance with their roses and hang out. Oh man. I mean, 90% of the room is literally swaying with their roses, looking at them lost in a reverie and I'm just like.

Yeah, I can't do this. Like I will do the exercises. I will dance like an idiot. I am not doing a waltz with a rose that was given to me for walking through a circle. No. And saying something as dumb as I am available. I have some dignity. So I just Do you. Well, after the fact, I decided, I did in fact. So I just sat on the ground and stretched for a while, and then one of the facilitators did a guided meditation, which was by far my favorite part of the whole weekend.

It was really good. And then we circled up for some final words, which I have to say were very sweet. And then I went home and I was weirdly happy that I went. It was definitely an experience and I do think it forced me to get [01:17:00] uncomfortable, which is always interesting, right. But I felt kind of sad and guilty afterward.

It's hard to explain. I just sat, I felt sad for myself that I couldn't enjoy something like this. Less so after telling you this story. 'cause I'm seeing your face and it's like making me feel a little bit better. But Sure. I also felt a little bit guilty. I don't know if you can relate, but when you do these things and you don't get something out of it, you kind of feel guilty not being a good sport.

Jordan Harbinger: You gotta play full on. Which is why I avoid

Gabriel Mizrahi: putting myself in these situations entirely. Yeah. But it is tough feeling, you know, I kept asking myself for the rest of the week, like, was that workshop dumb? Or was it interesting, but it just wasn't for me? Or am I just way too cynical and defended to actually get something out of an experience like that?

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, those are fair questions, but everything you're describing sounds patently ridiculous. I would've almost certainly walked out halfway through day one, like, oh, lunch breaks. See you guys on Monday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I just felt like I failed, or I don't know. I spent the whole on judging and cutting down these people who in so many ways are braver than I am.

Right? So who am I to judge them?

Jordan Harbinger: I get that, but I [01:18:00] don't know, man. That's not the conclusion I draw from all this. It, it just sounds like you didn't vibe with this particular group or curriculum and these exercises. I mean, my threshold for this stuff is way lower than yours, but I just don't see how any of this is that valuable other than pushing people outside their comfort zones, which I mean.

Cool. You're uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean you've healed your mother wound or your ancestors' trauma or anything. Like you could go for a long run that's out outside your comfort zone and you're outside your comfort zone there too. Vomiting on the side of the Santa Monica Pier. I'm with you, man.

Forced vulnerability, not really a good method for getting people to truly open up. That's been my experience anyway. And it's often misused by like culty

Gabriel Mizrahi: self-help groups. Yeah, and that's kind of where I landed with all this. At the end of the day, yeah, it's perfectly fine to not want to open up and be vulnerable on someone else's terms.

Like you're allowed to decide how open you want to be and if you don't want to be, it doesn't make you a bad person. You're not necessarily being superior. Right. Although I did feel like I might have been indulging that a little bit here and there, but. It definitely doesn't mean that you're like incapable of real connection [01:19:00] or intimacy, which is how I felt in the moment when I went home.

Jordan Harbinger: A hundred percent. Hey. But I get why it's awkward to stay connected to that in a setting like this. 'cause you can easily be that guy who seems like an a-hole when they invite you up to do your thing and you're like pass.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. But not wanting to open up when someone makes you. Interestingly, that does kick up a lot of data about yourself and some of that data I did find useful to look at.

Jordan Harbinger: Sure. Okay. Both can be true, I suppose.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I guess so. I feel like it was one of those experiences where the thing they wanted me to get out of it, I definitely did not get out of it. Okay. But I got all these other things that they didn't intend or maybe did they? I don't know. Dance is crazy. Anyway, I just had to tell you about that because looking back it was pretty hilarious.

And it also brought up some interesting stuff around vulnerability, which we talk about on the show all the time.

Jordan Harbinger: No, it's great. Otherwise I would be like, uh, Jace, cut this entire thing. But no, the vulnerability notes, it's true. I mean, it patently ridiculous and undeniably cringey. But yeah, it's great stuff.

I also think what you said is important, struggling in one context. That doesn't necessarily mean much. It's important not to draw [01:20:00] too many conclusions about yourself based on one experience. You felt like a cynical shutdown down monster that weekend or whatever, but we both know that that's not who you are in another setting, another weekend, different exercises, different.

Gabe and I, I see that with myself all the time, and it doesn't mean I'm not making progress or open new things or whatever, but for the record, I will bring this up from time to time and I will be roasting you for this for a while.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, totally. Great. Fair is fair. I mean, I brought it up so I have to live with the consequences.

Now

Jordan Harbinger: go back and check out the Tegan Broadwater episodes if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life in business have come through my network. The circle of people I know, like and trust. I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our six minute networking course.

It's a hundred percent free. It is not gross. It is not schmoozy. You can find it on the Thinkific platform@sixminutenetworking.com. These drills take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. You can find it@sixminutenetworking.com.

Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to [01:21:00] support the show, all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Rahi. This show is created an association with Podcast one.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And remember, we rise by lifting others.

Share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. You are about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show about how sanctions work and whether or not they're effective

JHS Clip: at the base level, a sanction, which is a, a law or a regulation that is intended to disallow access to the US financial system or to US goods, [01:22:00] or to services from US citizens is a sanction.

People wanna hold dollars. They want access to the US system. They wanna list on the New York Stock Exchange. Right. These are real elements of power in a global environment where money, power, economic influence is a part of competition and warfare. I often said at the Treasury Department, our job strategically was to make it harder, costlier and riskier for America's enemies to raise and move money around the world.

But that's the essence of this power, and it sits between the talking of diplomacy and the hard power of our military, and that's why people resort to it so often. But I do think there are going to be challenges fundamentally to us predominance in this space, challenges to the dollar, challenges to the payment systems, and challenges to the notion that this is the safest, most secure place to hold your money to invest in and most attractive place.[01:23:00]

'cause of our capital markets, rule of law, et cetera. That's why I think some of these state actors have an interest in undermining the credibility of our institutions. Like it or not, the economic and financial domain is a domain of conflict and competition. Do you want to be legitimate and be able to operate in the global system

Jordan Harbinger: to learn how the US wields its financial power against terrorists, rogue states, and global crime syndicates?

Check out episode 863 on The Jordan Harbinger Show with Juan Zarate.