750: Can You Help Friend Shake His Psychotic Break? | Feedback Friday

750: Can You Help Friend Shake His Psychotic Break? | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my compadre in consultation, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker so you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening even inside your own mind.

[00:00:37] If you're new to the show, on Fridays, we give advice to you and answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. This week, we had Yasmine Mohammed on growing up in conservative Islam, abusive practices in conservative Islam, and leaving the religion. This was a two-parter. Pretty heavy, of course, but a fascinating look, a peak behind the burka, if you will, into a world that most of us just never get to see. And you all know how much I love those kinds of conversations, so make sure you've had to listen to those episodes here this week.

[00:01:14] Gabe, before we dive, I remembered something this morning I haven't thought of in quite a while.

[00:01:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, tell me.

[00:01:20] Jordan Harbinger: I'm not totally sure of the relevance here. It's just kind of a funny story. But back in New York when I lived there like 10 years ago, I used to do this thing with taxi drivers. Usually, I'd be drinking, it'd be a night out, you know, this is Jordan 1.0, I guess you would say.

[00:01:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure, yeah.

[00:01:34] Jordan Harbinger: I would talk like crazy to the taxi drivers when they drove me home. I'd sit in the if they would let me, you know, usually, they would, because it'd be with other people in the back.

[00:01:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:42] Jordan Harbinger: I'd ask if they had kids, how it was driving a taxi, you know, get into like a real conversation with them and—

[00:01:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:01:49] Jordan Harbinger: If they had come to the states from another country, which is probably like 99 percent of them, I'd get them all pumped up about how their great-grandkids are going to be so proud. Their grandfather, great, great-grandfather was a cabby in New York, in the Big Apple, and started this new life, this new chapter of their family history, and shifted the legacy, right? They worked so. What I meant is it's just so extraordinary. This is pre-Uber, so it wasn't like a sad conversation.

[00:02:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sad conversation.

[00:02:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:02:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, sure.

[00:02:15] Jordan Harbinger: But the crazy thing is these cabbies would remember me weeks later. I'd be in another neighborhood somewhere in Manhattan. A taxi would drive over three lanes of traffic laying on the horn and be like, "Yo, Jordan. Where are you going, my man? Get in, I'll drop you."

[00:02:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: No way, that's impossible in New York, right?

[00:02:34] Jordan Harbinger: You would think, right? And I remember being with dates and they'd just be like, "Yo, how come cabbies know who you are? That is freaking weird man." And of course, friends of mine, I'd be like, "Hey, I talked to them. I take an interest in them. We're kind of buddies," but I just remember one date was like, "Okay, so you have to tell me why you're friends with the cab drivers. This has happened twice."

[00:02:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's really cool though. I actually really like that.

[00:02:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it was a lot of fun. This memory just came back to me this morning. I'm still like that in some ways with people that I meet not to accomplish anything in part. It's just kind of more fun for both of us.

[00:03:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.

[00:03:04] Jordan Harbinger: I think this is the relevance here, I would argue that that kind of personal connection is even more important in today's world when people are even more cynical, they're more alienated, more isolated than ever. And I think it's a great example of how people might not remember what you say, but they remember how you make them feel, that old cliche, I just think that's a really great quality to have—

[00:03:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:03:25] Jordan Harbinger: —In this world. And it makes life a lot more interesting.

[00:03:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I totally agree. And that's a lovely story. I love that.

[00:03:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's a lot of fun. It was really funny when it was happening regularly too. My friends would go, "Not again, not again." But I'll tell you, I never had any trouble getting a cab because even I've had cabbies pull over when they're like, "I'm on my way home. But I'll drive you because I know where you live." I'm like, "Oh." And they sometimes they'd be like, "Don't even worry about it."

[00:03:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's amazing.

[00:03:49] Jordan Harbinger: Just get in, It's fine. I'm already on the way.

[00:03:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also making me very nostalgic for a pre-Uber world.

[00:03:55] Jordan Harbinger: I haven't been in New York in a while. Well, actually that's not true. It's been a couple of years, but I haven't taken a cab in New York in half a decade or more, at least.

[00:04:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:04:05] Jordan Harbinger: Because of Uber.

[00:04:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:04:07] Jordan Harbinger: All right. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

[00:04:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hello, Jordan and Gabe. A few years ago, my best friend went through some kind of psychotic break. He thought he was a victim of a conspiracy by Jehovah's Witnesses and was accusing everyone of being one of them and putting drugs in his drinks. I had been told he was acting weirdly while I was abroad, but I had no way of actually understanding how bad it really was. When I came back, I met up with him and I was scared and saddened by how bad he was. I tried to downplay his paranoid delusions and make him think straight, but I couldn't get anywhere. Eventually, the symptoms seemed to ease up, but the idea that this nightmare could happen again is freaking me out. This guy is brilliant. We have a ton of history. He actually helped me get through a tough time when we were teenagers, and now I feel completely useless. I know he needs help, but if I talk to his parents, I'm afraid they'll be totally overwhelmed and refuse to intervene. If I talk to him directly, I'm afraid that he'll think I'm an enemy, shut down and disappear. How do I help a close friend who's experiencing psychosis or do I just stay away and let him work this out on his own? Signed, Weighing My Choices Amidst All These Voices.

[00:05:22] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, these, these psychosis stories are just so sad, Gabriel.

[00:05:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:05:27] Jordan Harbinger: Interesting timing, also with the whole Josh's back update the other week, that was pretty wide. It's interesting, for me, we've had family members of severely mentally ill people write in before, but I don't think we've ever heard from a friend of someone experiencing psychosis. Just imagine if you're Josh's friend, the first time he exhibited symptoms of schizophrenia.

[00:05:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:05:48] Jordan Harbinger: There must be people like that in his life.

[00:05:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:05:51] Jordan Harbinger: And it's got to be a scary place to be. And of course, it's so hard to know how to help. We wanted to run this all by an expert, so we reached out to Dr. Najwa Culver, clinical psychologist and co-director of the CBT for psychosis clinic at the West Los Angeles VA Medical Center, and Dr. Culver's take on the best way to approach a friend like this is to focus on the distress that he's feeling and validate that emotion. So when you talk to him and he shares some of these delusions with you, you might want to say, "Wow, yeah, it must have been really scary to feel like everyone was trying to hurt you." That type of statement walks this very fine line between what psychologists call colluding and confronting.

[00:06:35] Colluding means you are agreeing with the other person. There is a conspiracy. They're being victimized, they're being targeted. You obviously don't want to do this because it'll only feed into the psychosis that the person's experiencing. Confronting is actually doing the opposite. Responding to your friend, like, "What are you talking about? Jehovah's Witnesses being drugged. This obviously isn't happening. Snap out of it, man." That wouldn't be helpful either because the person experiencing psychosis will probably disengage or withdraw from you, just like a normal person would if you said that to them. I imagine it could also reinforce the delusions. Maybe even make your friend view you as part of the grand conspiracy.

[00:07:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. That's kind of what happened with Josh at some point, and I don't know if you remember but that night he wrote me that letter about how I was, you know, spreading rumors about him with other neighbors or something like that. And I think I said something like, "Now, this is happening?" And he got really agitated and that's kind of when things turned.

[00:07:28] Jordan Harbinger: It's kind of a straight shot from that conversation to dead meat molester. Wasn't that the note he left on the door for you? He like called you a molester or something like that, or—

[00:07:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Almost, yeah. It was a sign he put up in his window pointing to my door but basically, yes, that's exactly right.

[00:07:42] Jordan Harbinger: That's even worse somehow. So I really wish you'd kept that. What a memento that would've been, although now you have his footprints in the attic above your apartment. If you haven't heard that story, that was episode 705.

[00:07:53] Anyway, Dr. Culver's insight is to focus instead on validating your friend's emotions without colluding. And if that's hard to do, she would encourage you to put yourself in your friend's shoes. And imagine if you were the target of a conspiracy that your own friends were trying to drug you, how would you feel? I'm guessing you'd feel very scared. You'd feel alone, you'd feel confused. Those are the emotions you want to validate. So you can also ask your friend questions like, "How did you start to become so worried about this?" Validating his experience, however, irrational it is that'll allow your friend to feel heard and understood, and hopefully, to trust you a little more.

[00:08:32] And then you can start voicing concerns about all the things that he's saying. Maybe even gently offer alternative explanations for what he's experiencing.

[00:08:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Dr. Culver said that that foundation of trust, that is key because, in her experience, that's what'll allow you to slowly encourage your friend to hopefully see a mental health provider, ideally, both a psychiatrist and a psychologist. We actually talked to Dr. Culver about what treatment options look like in a case like this, and it's really interesting. She said that for a long time everybody believed that schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders, that they could only be treated with medication. But according to her cognitive behavioral therapy for psychosis Is now a highly regarded evidence-based treatment. And in her view, most patients benefit from a combination of medications, which obviously should be prescribed by a psychiatrist who's familiar with psychotic symptoms, and therapy, done by a psychologist who's trained in CBTP.

[00:09:30] And what I found really interesting was, you know, my solution to this would have been, get this guy into a hospital stat, you know, especially after going through the whole Josh thing. But Dr. Culver said that she and her colleagues at the VA where she works, and apparently most clinicians who have experience with these disorders, they try to avoid hospitalization if possible because being hospitalized is often incredibly traumatic and they believe it's usually not necessary for most people with psychosis. They can usually be stabilized on an outpatient basis if they're connected with the right providers and obviously with the support of family and friends. In fact, Dr. Culver said that having a strong social support. That is a huge protective factor in cases like this. If you have strong relationships, you're less likely to experience hospitalization. You're less likely to lose your job, you're less likely to be homeless, all of that.

[00:10:19] But here's the thing, as we talk about all the time on the show, there is a limit to your role here and obviously, you get to decide how involved you want to be in your friend's life and his treatment but if he won't engage with you or he refuses to see anybody, or he does get treatment, but then he stops seeing his doctors or he goes off his medication or whatever it is, and if that makes your relationship with him very difficult, you are allowed to take a step back. She pointed out that it can be very draining to maintain a friendship with somebody who's suffering from untreated psychosis. But if you do take a step back, then she would strongly encourage you to reach out to this guy's parents and, yeah, share what you know about him. Share what you're seeing.

[00:10:59] As she put it to us, there are limits to what you can do in a case like this. And sadly, sometimes it takes people with psychosis a very long time to be ready to receive the care that they really need.

[00:11:11] Jordan Harbinger: That's interesting. That makes sense. It is counterintuitive a little bit, and by the way, speaking of his parents, Dr. Culver does think it's important for them to know what's happening with their son, but it also depends on how they'd respond. It sounds like you think they're going to be overwhelmed and refuse to intervene, which is really unfortunate. But when you approach them, maybe you can share what you've learned with them, help them understand how to best help their son right now. Best case scenario, you share what you're seeing with them and you can all monitor how he's doing together, and you can all encourage him to get the help that he needs.

[00:11:44] We're also going to link to a bunch of excellent resources that Dr. Culver shared with us in the show notes, including a personal story from somebody who experienced psychosis with scripts for how she needed to be talked to. I would read all of these and consider sharing them with his parents. It sounds like they need to be educated a little bit here too.

[00:12:03] Gabe, I got to say I found Dr. Culver's take on this situation really insightful, but also, like I said, surprising because I'm with you, man. My first reaction was, man, you got to get this guy to a hospital, do an involuntary hold. He needs help right away. But what she's saying is hospitalization, it might make things even worse. That was completely news to me.

[00:12:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it was news to me too. And to be clear, Dr. Culver did say there are times when hospitalizing somebody is the only option, usually because of a safety risk to themselves or to somebody else, but from her and her colleagues' perspectives, yeah, it's just one tool in the tool belt and they try to use it as little as possible.

[00:12:39] The other thing Dr. Culver told us was that people with psychosis, they can lead very fulfilling lives. They can have jobs, they can maintain friendships, they can get married. They can be contributing members of society. In her experience, psychotic disorders, they're often very stigmatized. When you picture somebody with schizophrenia or whatever, you usually imagine, you know, somebody on the street yelling at pigeons or someone who's permanently hospitalized in the psych ward.

[00:13:04] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You picture Josh banging the trash cans outside of your neighbor's office.

[00:13:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Exactly. But Dr. Culver said that all of the patients she works with who have psychotic disorder, they're living independently. They have jobs. They're connected with their family and friends. They're dating. Some of them are even in long-term romantic relationships. They're functioning. They're living pretty solid lives, which is extraordinary.

[00:13:27] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's actually incredible and pretty inspiring. But those patients of hers, they have access to mental health treatment, medication. They're putting in the work. They're not in denial about their disorder or resisting the help or homeless with no family.

[00:13:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. Without that, it's obviously a very different story. It's Josh. It's probably a lot closer to Josh, but her point is people with psychotic disorders can lead incredibly fulfilling lives if they're connected with the right treatment, which is why she's really encouraging this guy and his parents to try to get this friend the help he needs.

[00:13:59] Jordan Harbinger: Right. He deserves that at the very least. So I hope you get through to your friend and I hope that he gets better. Just keep an eye on your own experience here. Take care of yourself along the way. Sending you and your friend, good thoughts and big thanks to Dr. Culver for all her insight and experience here.

[00:14:15] If you'd like to learn more about Dr. Culver, you can visit doctornajwaculver.com. We'll link to her website in the show notes as well.

[00:14:22] You know who's definitely after you though? It's not just your imagination. The sponsors who support this show. We'll be right.

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[00:16:49] Now, back to Feedback Friday.

[00:16:53] Okay, what's next?

[00:16:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. During the pandemic, mostly due to boredom, my wife's and my drinking increased, not to the point of dependency, but probably to an unhealthy level. After we went on a holiday with our kids, I vowed to lose weight, cut down on the drinking, and work on myself, which I did. I lost a ton of weight and felt great, largely thanks to my wife's encouragement and advice. Over the next year though, she went through a terrible breakup with a friend who manipulated her to the point of compromising our marriage. She never got back on track and has increased the drinking somewhat. Since then, there have been a number of times when I've genuinely worried for her safety. She's a friendly drunk, maybe too friendly, which can give people the wrong impression. When we get together with friends, she's more often than not the drunkest person in the group or even the only person drinking, which makes me very uncomfortable. After one recent get-together, she sensed that I was uneasy and pressed me for an answer, and I admitted that I was a little embarrassed by her. She's often depressed about the weight she's put back on and the mess that her friend left her in. She says she wants to get back on track, but she never does. But any concern or criticism on my part is met with furious pushback and finger-pointing at my previous wrongdoings. Finally, I vowed to not say anything and to let her do what she wants, but now I'm wondering how should I move forward. Should I go back to saying nothing and avoid the confrontation or should I push her to confront this and get better? Signed, Sweating Over My Souse Spouse.

[00:18:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this is a tough one. Your wife is clearly turning to alcohol for some reason. Maybe this latest blow-up with her friend is the reason, or maybe the root cause is deeper than that. Pretty sure it is. Even if she's not a full-blown, full-time alcoholic, it does sound like she's somewhere on the addiction spectrum, at least these days. I mean, you're describing pretty typical addict behavior, drinking too much, drinking when other people are not drinking. Embarrassing herself, embarrassing her partner. The fact that it's a little too close to home for Jordan 1.0, as we mentioned earlier in the show, like embarrassing yourself and other people. Wait a minute.

[00:19:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Talking to cabs who don't even know who you are, how bizarre?

[00:19:03] Jordan Harbinger: It sounds familiar. The fact that she's picked up on your discomfort and pushed you to tell her how you really feel, but then she gets super defensive and accusatory when you try to talk to her about it, that says a lot. On some level, she knows she has a problem. That's really hard for a spouse to deal with. It's heartbreaking to watch. I don't blame you for being so concerned. This is concerning and as her husband, I do think you owe it to her to try to help. But here's the good news, you turn things around recently, which is amazing by the way, and you did it with her encouragement and advice she's done for you what you can now do for her. And that gives you a great window into this conversation.

[00:19:44] The other good piece of news, well, good is a weird word, but anyway, your wife knows that she's depressed about her health and her mental state after this friendship blew up. She's actually said that she wants to get back on track. So there's clearly some part of her that knows something isn't right here and wants to get better. So here's what I do if I were you, I would make some time alone with your wife and I would start by telling her what you went through when you turned things around a while back. How you were concerned about your weight, how you knew you were drinking too much, that you knew you had to work on yourself, and how daunting that was. But the only reason you were able to do it is because of her help. Really give her the credit here. Make her see that you had to open yourself up to her guidance to get better, that you learned it was okay to be honest and vulnerable, and admit how bad things had gotten so that you could turn the ship around.

[00:20:32] And maybe you tell her, you know, "Hey, thank you. Thank you for helping me get through that chapter. I don't know what I would've done if I'd kept going down that path." Then I would say something like, "You've always been there for me, and now I want to be there for you, and what I'm about to say, it might be hard to hear, and I get it. I know this isn't a fun conversation, but it's coming from a place of total love for you, and I'm asking you to just hear me out." And then I would tell her what you're seeing now. I would obviously be gentle because your wife is in a very delicate place these days, but I would also be direct enough for her to really get it. That you know this friendship did a number on her, that you see her drinking too much these days, that you see her acting in ways that aren't really her, that it's compromising her relationships with her friends with you, that you know she's depressed and disappointed about her health, physical and mental, that it's hard to watch your spouse struggle in that way.

[00:21:28] And that you know firsthand how hard it is because you've been in a very similar place to her before, and that last bit is really important. The more you can put yourself in her shoes, the more you can speak to her from a place of empathy and personal experience, the more you're going to lower her defenses, the less reactive she's going to be. She might still push back, but this will help. And then I would tell her that you think it's time to work on this stuff and that you are going to help her every step of the. Obviously, the most urgent thing is cutting out the drinking, but I would get her to tell you why she's turning to alcohol. The more you can get her to acknowledge that she's drinking to deal with some difficult stuff, the easier it's going to be to say, "You need to stop. You need to work on this stuff. You need to stop running from it." And if she agrees with you, then I would strategize with her about her options quitting on her own if she can do it, going to rehab if she needs it, therapy which I think would be a good idea, kind of no matter what, and starting to create a very different lifestyle for herself, which you can help her build because you're living it.

[00:22:30] Now, my hope is that she listens and takes that in, and you guys can have a really good conversation about what's going on here, but if she responds in the way that she has in the past, you know, if she's like, "I don't know what you're talking about. I don't have a problem. You're just being dramatic." Or she does the old, "Well, you got drunk at the Western Honolulu in 2019, and you're the one who went off the deep end during the pandemic. Why am I the bad guy? Blah, blah, blah."

[00:22:53] Well, Gabe, what does he do if she says that?

[00:22:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Then you say, "Yeah, you're right. I did do that. I was kind of a mess and I needed to look at myself and I needed to get better, and I did that. And I did that because you were there for me. Just like, I'm here for you right now." And if she keeps pushing back and she still refuses to get help, then I would say very calmly, "Look, I can see that this is really hard for you to talk about and I get it, but do you see how we can't even talk about this? Do you see how you're pushing me away right now? This is what I'm talking about. This is why I'm concerned. You're very attached to your drinking. You're not letting me in to even talk about it. Do you see how that's happening in this conversation?"

[00:23:35] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Get her to see how her addiction is playing out literally right there in the moment.

[00:23:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's easy to say, "Eh, I don't have a problem with alcohol. I'm not being defensive. I'm fine." When it's 11:00 a.m. and you're sober and you're talking about things in the abstract, but it's much harder to deny there's a problem when your spouse is saying, "Do you see how you're resisting me right now? Do you see that you're choosing alcohol over talking to me openly right now today?" That really brings things to light in the here and now and that's a lot harder to dismiss.

[00:24:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I love that approach. Kind of a good concept for any conflict really. But look, if your wife still won't make some changes, you guys might want to consider an intervention with your friend group. You mentioned that you guys hang out with all these other people. They've seen your wife drink too much. Maybe she needs a wake-up call from all of you in order to snap out of it because then it kind of takes the relationship dynamics out of it. Like, "Oh, you're just saying this to da, da, da." If other people are there, they're powerful for a reason. And there are tons of resources out there on how to have that conversation. And you might even want to do it in conjunction with some kind of treatment program, inpatient, outpatient, or with the help of a therapist if you go that route.

[00:24:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: I would also invite your wife to talk to you about what happened with this difficult friend. I'm still thinking about that whole backstory. Something obviously got stirred up in her in that whole debacle. It seems to be the most immediate reason she began drinking. To Jordan's point, I'm guessing it unearthed something that is much older than that friendship, and she needs to deal with that if she's going to get better.

[00:25:04] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:25:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: For example, I'm wondering does she feel abandoned? Does she feel hurt? Did this friend's manipulation make her, I don't know, suspicious of other people and what their intentions are, including you? Hard to say exactly what happened there, but obviously, something did. So I would try to get her to open up about that and really try to get to the root of the drinking.

[00:25:23] Jordan Harbinger: Right. What is alcohol doing for her? That's what she needs to figure out. It's recovery 101 stuff. I also want you to check out an old Feedback Friday episode where we took a question from a guy whose wife had become obese and he didn't know how to talk to her. Obviously, a very different situation. But I think it'll help to hear how we approach that one because all difficult conversations follow the same basic principles. That was question three of episode 624, by the way. We'll link to that in the show notes. So good luck my friend. I am so sorry you guys are going through this, but your wife needs a lot of love and help right now. And I think in a strange way, she's actually crying out for it and I hope she can let you in and make some changes. Sending you both good thoughts.

[00:26:04] You can reach us at friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that helps us sort emails and keeps our email program from going bonkers. If there's something you're going through, any big decision you're wrestling with, or you need a new perspective on stuff, life, love, work. What to do if you don't like it when your wife gets to be the boss? Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:26:34] All right, next up.

[00:26:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I was recently given a clear, unambiguous job offer for what was more or less my dream job. During our conversations, the company gave me information on salary, benefits, and a loose timeline on what I would join, but no specific start date. Then after responding with a few clarifying questions, I received an email saying that they were going with somebody else. I am extremely angry, confused, and hurt by what happened, and I lost precious time. I could have spent on my job search. My lawyer mom and my friends think that it's a slim chance, but given that I received a false job offer, do I have a legal case for false inducement of employment or something along those lines? Signed, The Confounded Candidate.

[00:27:20] Jordan Harbinger: I'm sorry this happened to you, man. It's annoying just hearing about it. Unfortunately, this kind of thing happens all the time. This is par for the course in job hunting. I've heard tons of stories like this. We wanted to get an expert's opinion here, so we reached out to Neil Rombardo. Neil is the chief general counsel for the largest employer in Washoe County, Nevada, with approximately 8,000 employees. So he really knows his stuff.

[00:27:42] And Neil's immediate take was that he doesn't see fraud in the inducement of employment here. Fraudulent inducement is usually a contract issue where an employer makes an intentionally false statement to trick an employee or prospective hire into accepting an offer. And usually, that offer is made to lure the employee or prospective away from a competitor. In that case, the victim might be able to sue the employer for false promises and recover damages, but that isn't what happened to you. The company just said they would offer the job, then they changed their minds, which sucks for sure, but doesn't seem to be illegal. In Neil's view, you don't have a cause of action here because there simply aren't any damages.

[00:28:21] And yes, I hear you. The offer was unambiguous, but how unambiguous was it really if they didn't give you a contract or a firm start? Now, the person you spoke with might have sounded pretty darn sure, but the substance of the offer wasn't solid, which just goes to show that people can say whatever the heck they want. And your best bet is to take things with a grain of salt until they become real and/or on paper. It's a tough pill to swallow, I know, but it's a good lesson to learn. And the truth is, I'm going, to be honest here, you've probably dodged a bullet with this company. These people sound wishy-washy at best, untrustworthy at worst, in my opinion. If they did this to you at this stage, you got to wonder what kind of company they'd be to work for. Probably a hot mess if I had to guess.

[00:29:04] More broadly though, Neil shared some really great advice about navigating a job search. For one thing, he said that relying on a prospective employer's word is always tricky, and it depends on the source. His advice, ask questions of those who are giving you their word until you clearly understand the person's intent. Don't settle for vague assurances or half-baked promises or if that's all they give you, then don't start making plans based on them. For example, by stopping your job search or assuming an offer is definitely going to come.

[00:29:37] The other thing Neil advises his clients to do is respond to an employer's actions without emotion. If you become too emotionally invested in these conversations, you're more likely to hear what you want to hear and to discount any signs things might not go your way. And I know that's tough to do because you do get emotionally invested in a job search but you have to temper that along the way. Neil also said that when it comes to litigation, he always tells his clients, "Anyone can sue anyone for anything, but just because you can, it doesn't mean you should." And I will kind of echo that. The trick is always to win in litigation.

[00:30:11] Litigation is a long, difficult process, and depending on the case, it can be pretty uncomfortable to be called to a deposition or to testify. His advice, and again, I will totally echo this as a lawyer and as somebody who has sued and been sued a few times here and there, never sue anyone out of spite or because your feelings are hurt. Lawsuits are appropriate when a person has violated your rights and caused you actual damage. Less so when an opportunity just didn't go your way, and the stakes are relatively low, like in your case, suing because these jabronis wasted your time. The merits of your case aside, it's only going to waste more time. It's going to distract you from your job search. It's not going to be free. And you should really be focusing all of your energy on moving forward and finding a new gig.

[00:30:56] My advice, keep interviewing and focus on finding a company that treats you well. The best victory you can get here is channeling this anger you feel into your career and landing a job that you truly love. So good luck.

[00:31:09] And now time for some capitalism. We'll be right back.

[00:31:15] This episode is sponsored in part by HVMN. All right. I've talked about the supplement a bunch. It tastes horrible. Let's get past that. I've said that a zillion times. This is the drinkable ketones. I gave some to my trainer. I sent these over to him to both of them actually, and they love this stuff. I'm skeptical of supplements. I'm just not a supplement guy. Anything that usually works is just some caffeine crap that's just like coffee with extra steps and more expensive. This is different. There's not the anxiety and jitters of coffee that you get with a bunch of it. It suppresses your appetite, but not in like a weird sort of methy way. Not that I would know. But I don't have that crash during the workout. I don't feel like I'm starving. It's just a really unique way to boost your energy, especially for a workout. If you're doing a long bike ride, I think that would be good. If you're running a lot, I think that would work quite well for you. My trainers are quite sold on it. I'm going to actually be sending them more of this stuff to Canada, so pray for me with the shipping costs. But I would love to hear what you think about this. I think it's a unique product and surprisingly, it's one of the things that seems to work.

[00:32:14] Jen Harbinger: For 20 percent off your order of Ketone-IQ, go to HVMN.com promo code JORDAN. Again, that's H-V-M-N.com promo code JORDAN for 20 percent off Ketone-IQ.

[00:32:26] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Crawlspace podcast. Are you fascinated/obsessed with true crime shows? If you're curious about that mysterious, harrowing, and bizarre, check out Crawlspace — that word just freaks me out, honestly. If I had a cottage with that crawlspace, no, thank you. This is where crime and culture meet. Hosts, Tim, Lance, and Jen cover a wide range of topics from unexplainable crimes, conspiracies, and fringe culture with weekly interviews with expert guests. Whether you're interested in criminology or cryptozoology, there's an episode for every true crime addict. Check out the episode with former federal agent and author John Madinger about his experiences, work in undercover, and the episode with Jody Plauche about her experience of survival after her father famously shot and killed Jeff Doucet on television for what he did to Jody, wild. You can't go wrong with adding Crawlspace to your rotation. There's never a dull episode. That copy sure sounds familiar. Just search for Crawlspace - True Crime & Mysteries on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:33:21] Thank you all so much for supporting the show and for listening to the show for that matter. Your support of the advertisers, that is absolutely crucial to our work here. I mean, that's how we keep the lights on. All the deals, all the discount codes, all in one place, jordanharbinger.com/deals. Also at jordanharbinger.com, you can use that little search box on the website. You can find any sponsor there. Just search for the sponsor's name. That should pop the code right up. Please consider supporting those who support the show.

[00:33:46] And now back to Feedback Friday.

[00:33:50] All right, what's next?

[00:33:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. My girlfriend and I have been dating for seven months, and if you're familiar with lesbian relationships at all, it moved at a pretty average pace. That is it got real serious, real quick.

[00:34:04] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I was going to say, you guys moved in after your third date. Is that what happened?

[00:34:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: So this is like the stereotype about lesbian relationships, right? They move really quickly.

[00:34:12] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. First of all, there's a joke about lesbians having their second date at like the U-Haul rental place or whatever.

[00:34:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right, U-Hauling.

[00:34:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, U-Hauling.

[00:34:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think it's called U-Hauling.

[00:34:19] Jordan Harbinger: It's called U-Hauling.

[00:34:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's like so lesbian and bi-women moving in together pretty soon after entering a relationship. It's such a funny phrase.

[00:34:26] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's just a cliche.

[00:34:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: I wonder why that is though. It must be because women are more comfortable communicating their feelings and building rapport and knowing this is a person I really like, I want to commit. That's got to be the explanation, right?

[00:34:38] Jordan Harbinger: They don't have a guy running in the opposite direction as soon as he catches feelings and freaking out.

[00:34:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe.

[00:34:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:34:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, I've heard that lesbians have a smaller dating pool, so maybe they're more eager or excited about a relationship that works and they're like, "Great. I found somebody. I'm into it. Let's do it." You just want to like lock it down?

[00:34:55] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I mean, provided that this is even true and not just a stereotype that exists, that isn't true at all. I don't know.

[00:35:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. I hear that there's some truth to it and at this case, this story might be a case in point. I don't know.

[00:35:05] Okay, so the letter goes on.

[00:35:07] This is by far the best relationship I've ever been in. She's incredibly intelligent, has a wonderful career, is super ambitious, takes initiative, has a great family, and has so many other wonderful qualities but—

[00:35:19] Jordan Harbinger: How do I hammer them down so that she's not ambitious? Oh, wait, wrong show, that was last week.

[00:35:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Nope, that was last week. Yeah. Two girl bosses, who's going to win?

[00:35:27] But the big issue we have is around her exes. She's withheld information about them numerous times, and I get blindsided by more and more details as time goes. For example, there's a girl in her friend group who was really standoffish to me. When I brought this up to my girlfriend, she assured me that this friend was just shy. Much later, my girlfriend finally told me that they've had sex, and this friend had feelings for her and has treated my girlfriend's other exes the same way. It's not the dynamic that bothered me, it's the fact that I felt like it made me look dumb. Another example, when we met, she told me she had an ex who she dated for a year and who she still gets lunch with. Fine, no big. Then months into our relationship, she tells me that they were actually hooking up on and off after they broke up, and a few months after that, she tells me that they were hooking up right until she met me and actually hung out the weekend we met. The fact that I was once again kept in the dark, bothered me. Then a couple of weeks ago, my girlfriend said she wants to rekindle a friendship with somebody she used to have a long-distance relationship with. When I expressed my discomfort and said that this was becoming an issue of respect, my girlfriend proposed telling this other girl that she can't be friends because I'm uncomfortable with it, which doesn't sound like a solution to me. Am I wrong in thinking it's disrespectful for her to foster this relationship? Are these red flags that I'm just trying not to see, or am I being dramatic and controlling and I should just feel lucky that she's being dishonest with me? Signed, Hitting a Wall and Nearing a Brawl After this U-Haul Fall.

[00:37:00] Jordan Harbinger: Honestly, this could apply as much to any straight couple as to a gay couple. The whole ex's conversation is just fraught for a lot of people.

[00:37:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:37:08] Jordan Harbinger: So it sounds to me that what bothers you here, It's not that your girlfriend has a past, but that she's not being totally upfront with you about it. You feel like you don't have enough information about these women to know what to make of them, how to feel about these ongoing friendships. This doesn't sound like jealousy. It just sounds like you feel misled. It makes you feel like she's not being very thoughtful or respectful of you, and maybe it also makes you feel like you're on the outside of something kept in the dark. I get that. That makes a lot of sense to me.

[00:37:37] At the same time though, your sensitivity about your girlfriend's exes, which again, that's largely being driven by her secrecy, that sensitivity might be making your girlfriend feel like she needs to keep you in the dark. I might be reaching here a little bit. I'll let you decide if this fits, but it's possible that your girlfriend sees how you react when you learn about these exes and she thinks, "Oh, my exes really seem to set her off. Maybe it's best. I just don't say anything about them or don't say much." Of course, it's not her past that's setting you off. It's the fact that she's not being an open book. But I do wonder if maybe she views the situation this way and it's hard to crow in someone's head. But if that's true, then when she keeps you in the dark, maybe it's not because she disrespects you. It's because, in a weird way, she wants to protect you/she wants to protect herself from feeling guilty when you feel hurt if that makes sense.

[00:38:28] But then what happens is she backs herself into these corners where she has to fess up to more information, like with the woman she was hooking up with until you guys met, or with the woman she wants to rekindle a friendship with now and then it looks like she was lying. Whereas if she just told you everything about these exes upfront, I'm guessing you'd be cool with it because you wouldn't be angry that she hid something. And you wouldn't be paranoid that there's more to the story. So I wonder if that's the dynamic that you all are caught up in. You feeling uneasy about her exes, her interpreting that as being jealous or insecure about her past, her responding by withholding more details to spare your feelings, and then you responding to that secrecy by feeling disrespected and hurt, and her responding to that hurt by withholding more and so on and so on, back and forth. That could spiral a lot of control pretty quick.

[00:39:13] And I'm sure there's even more to it. We all bring a ton of history and needs and feelings to relationships. There's just so much going on in any relationship, but I do wonder if that's the crux or at least a big part of this problem.

[00:39:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Yeah, I think you nailed it. I do get the sense that her girlfriend isn't always comfortable with the truth.

[00:39:34] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's possible she's being a little bit, I guess a little avoidant when it comes to some of these conversations that she feels are difficult. Like with this ex, she wants to rekindle a friendship with. She wants to tell her she can't be friends because the woman writing in is uncomfortable with it, which sounds like another example of protecting her girlfriend's feelings while ignoring the deeper issue, like you pointed out. Yeah. It's like, "Fine, I'll, I'll just tell her we can't be friends because you don't like it." And it's like, "Well, yeah, I don't like it, but I don't like it because I'm worried that you're lying to me and now I'm left wondering if something might be happening with this other person. And we're not talking about that because you'd rather just sidestep the drama."

[00:40:14] Jordan Harbinger: Good point. I don't know if this is conscious or not. Her girlfriend might not even realize that she's being kind of avoidant. It might not actually be intentional or malicious, but either way, they're missing the deeper issue. And so the only way to resolve this, of course, is to talk this out with your girlfriend.

[00:40:30] And a great way to begin would be to tell her what you told us, which is that this is the best relationship you've been in. You think very highly of your girlfriend for all these reasons. That you're excited about what you guys are building, but there's just one thing that's not sitting very well with you and you want to talk it out. And I would just be very open with her about how you're feeling, why this whole exe thing bothers you. Help her understand that you're not trying to be controlling or jealous. You just don't like being kept in the dark because it makes you feel like she doesn't respect you, and it puts you in the position of wondering if there's something more going on.

[00:41:04] Then I would ask her what her experience of this exe thing has been, why she thinks she withholds these details from you, and make it safe for her to be honest with you here. If my theory is correct, she might be reluctant to say, "Well, I don't like to tell you this stuff because you're really worried about my exes." But if she can tell you what's really going on, whether, it's what I said or something else entirely, then you guys can finally diagnose the real issue. And, hey, bottom line, I think your girlfriend needs to understand where this impulse to withhold from you comes from. And commit to being more open with you. And I think you need to appreciate how your response to her past might make her want to withhold.

[00:41:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I think that's a great point. And you know, to be fair, if there is a part of you that actually is insecure about her exes or you realize that maybe you are a little jealous, you know, your girlfriend's secrecy aside, that's something for you to explore too. I would be willing to look at all of that in this conversation. Because, again, as in all relationships, there's always work for both parties to do when it comes to a dynamic like this. You guys are both co-authors of this experience you're having, even if your girlfriend is driving a lot of this particular problem.

[00:42:13] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. But here's the great news. There's so much good stuff here. Your girlfriend is smart, she's driven, she's excited about life. You're obviously a very thoughtful person. You're very introspective. She wouldn't be with you if you weren't pretty awesome too. This doesn't have to be a fatal issue. If anything, you guys figuring this out will only bring you closer and avoid this hiccup down the road so you can just enjoy this amazing relationship without worrying about these other people. And I have a feeling this is going to be one of those conversations that'll be a turning point in the relationship for the better. So get to talking, listen to each other, and I think you're going to be great. Good luck.

[00:42:50] All right, next up.

[00:42:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I've been with my husband for four years and we have always wanted kids. We got pregnant last year at the same time as my sister-in-law, and we were all so excited to have our kids grow up together. We ended up having a miscarriage about week 10. It's been tough, especially with my brother's kid, about to be born in a month. We now have such conflicted emotions around this decision. We still both want kids, but with the war in Ukraine, the potential loss of abortion rights, climate change, and rising costs of living, we've been struggling to justify bringing a child into the world. Are we being selfish for wanting to bring a kid into this world? If so, how can we get past this baby fever? Signed, The Perplexed Pro-Creators.

[00:43:37] Jordan Harbinger: Well, I really appreciate this question. It is such an important one. And it's wild to me that so many people don't stop to consider it at all before having kids. And I'm very sorry that you guys are asking it now after going through a miscarriage. I can only imagine how tough that is. I know that's a morning process of its own, both for the pregnancy and for the plans you guys had. I hope you're holding up okay. And that there's a way forward if you guys ever decide to try again.

[00:44:03] So here's my take on your question. If you're bringing someone into this world, yeah, you have to think about the world they're going to inherit. And yes, this world is, it's intense to put it lightly. There's a lot to be concerned about these days between climate change and terrorism and genocide and nukes and war. The list goes on and on to say nothing of the fact that life is hard for everyone in every generation, no matter what. It's just in virtue of being, you know, a human being.

[00:44:30] So if you're going to have children, I think you have to accept that reality, and you have to be pretty damn committed to creating the best possible life for them, even if the larger world is difficult, which means loving them, educating them, cultivating their talents, helping them figure out what makes their life meaningful, and yeah, teaching them how to navigate that difficult world, and also to commit to making them good people so that they can do their part to help create a better world when they're adults.

[00:44:58] So my take is yes, on one level, it is selfish to bring a kid into this world. That's just how having kids works. That's the deal. You want to have them so you have them. That's somewhat self-interested by definition, but knowing that you have to commit to being the best parent you can be and give your children a great shot at being the best human beings they can be. And hopefully, you raise them in a way that makes them grateful to be here. And that's how you sort of make up for the selfishness by being selfless and giving them a loving and meaningful life. And if you can do that, then in my book, it's not entirely selfish to bring children into this world. If you can't do that, which is perfectly fine, then I would really sit with this decision and make sure it's the right thing to do.

[00:45:41] Gabe, I know you are without a child but do you have any thoughts here?

[00:45:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think that was beautifully said, actually. I could not agree more. I'm just thinking about the fact that they went through a miscarriage and now they're second-guessing their desire to have children. And look, maybe it just happened to come at an exceptionally difficult time in the world, and that's what's giving them pause. But I also imagine that the miscarriage has brought up a lot of feelings, namely sadness and disappointment, of course. And I wonder if some of that grief might be finding its way into this question of, well, should we even have kids?

[00:46:15] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that's an interesting point. You mean are they looking at the world through a certain lens right now?

[00:46:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. It's possible that their sadness is informing their feelings about the world at large and then making them question if having kids is even worth it, right? If it means bringing them into a world where they might have to deal with their own forms of sadness one day, which to your point, Jordan, they will, because that's part of the deal of being alive.

[00:46:40] The question they're asking is philosophical, "Is it selfish to bring kids into this world?" But I wonder if underneath that it's also very emotional and very personal.

[00:46:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a really good point. And honestly, I can't blame them for feeling that way. They've been through a real loss. It makes perfect sense that they might be feeling demoralized or just wary of the whole idea, but that might say more about their state of mind right now than it does about the state of the world.

[00:47:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, that would be a great thing for them to explore together. How much of this hesitation is about them and how much of it is about, you know, Ukraine and Roe v. Wade? I'm sure both of them play a role, but it would be helpful to separate them out so they know where the hesitation is coming from. And hey, maybe they eventually decide that they do want to have a child, even if the world is troubling and they try again. And if they do, they're going to find that they can work through the grief and they can overcome these losses and they can keep living life. And that's a beautiful thing, and that's also what they'll have to teach their kids to be able to survive in the world.

[00:47:38] Jordan Harbinger: Well said, Gabe. I do wonder if maybe the question they're asking isn't just, is it selfish to bring a kid into this world, but is it worth it to keep trying in this world?

[00:47:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:47:49] Jordan Harbinger: But I see how those two questions are pretty closely related. But look, if you guys can't get pregnant for whatever reason, or you just decide not to have kids, you may want to consider adoption. There are so many amazing kids who have already been born into this very imperfect world, and you'd only be enriching their lives. Not trying to sound preachy. I'm just bringing that up because it's a really great way out of this philosophical conundrum you brought to us, but also it's a really incredible thing to do, right? You don't have to decide whether or not you're breaking some moral code—

[00:48:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:48:18] Jordan Harbinger: —birthing a kid because they're already here and now you can choose to make their life better or not. I mean, that's pretty damn cool.

[00:48:24] So I hope that gives you some new angles here. The irony is its people who ask this question who usually make the most thoughtful parents.

[00:48:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point.

[00:48:33] Jordan Harbinger: So if you do decide to try again, I'm sure you'll do it for the right reasons. I know it's always the people where you're like, you should be having kids. Look at these people who give absolutely no thought to having kids or how they raised them, and they have like 12.

[00:48:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally.

[00:48:44] Jordan Harbinger: And these are the people who are reproducing. No. The people who are like, "Well, I want to be very careful and measured and deliberate.

[00:48:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Careful about this. Yeah. Is this right? Is this the right thing to do? You're the one, you're the mom. Yeah.

[00:48:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, exactly. So we're sending you and your husband our best thoughts and a hug from California.

[00:49:00] Hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week, and of course, everybody who listened, thank you so much. Go back and check out both parts of my interview with Yasmine Mohammed if you haven't done so.

[00:49:10] All of the great guests and all of the folks you hear on the show are found via my network. My network is not something I made through being schmoozy and gross. I'm teaching you how to do the same thing I do every single day. It's software, it's systems, it's tiny habits. The course is Six-Minute Networking, and the course is free. It's on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. You can't make up for lost time when you need relationships. You got to dig that well before you get thirsty because once you need those relationships, you're too late to build. The drills take a few minutes a day. It's not something that's going to take up a bunch of your time, jordanharbinger.com/course.

[00:49:45] A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. All of our advertisers, deals, and discount codes, the things that keep the show running. Those are all over at jordanharbinger.com/deals. And please do support our sponsors. They help us keep things moving. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, and you can find Gabe on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi or on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi.

[00:50:12] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions, they're our own. And I'm a lawyer. I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Neil Rombardo.

[00:50:31] Dr. Culver's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It is intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance.

[00:50:43] Hey, remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice that we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

[00:51:01] Here's a sample of my interview with scam buster Coffeezlla. Whether you or a loved one is being tempted by sketchy investment opportunities, MLM Traps, fake guru-led operations, understanding how to identify them, and the mechanisms by which they work is the best chance you can have of putting a stop to their shenanigans. Here's a quick look Inside.

[00:51:22] Coffeezilla: You see an ad and it's of some guru you've seen before, you haven't seen before. Let's say Jordan, you're the guru for today, and you tell me, "Oh, come to my free webinar." It's always free and it's always going to teach me how to get rich. There's no investment that I initially think I have to make.

[00:51:37] So I go to your webpage, I give you my email, and I sign up for this live webinar. It's never live. They've pre-recorded it. It's a three-hour sales pitch for their $2,000 course, and they basically tell you, look at all these people who have had success. They will show you the Forbes article that they bought, but they'll not tell you that they purchased it. They'll say, "Hey, look how successful I am." They put themselves in your shoes. They know that their average buyer is broke, you know, disaffected. Everything he's been trying hasn't worked. And they say, "I was just like you. I was where you are. And I bounced around and I made all these mistakes until I found the one secret. And I will tell you that secret to get you from A to Z, it took me five years to get to a million dollars. I'll teach you, Jordan, how to do it, a proven blueprint in one year. I'll take you from loser where I used to be. I used to be a loser like you. And I'll take you to winner where I am now and I'll take you there. Blueprint guaranteed. No problem. Look at all the testimonials. Sign up, baby, right, right, right. Right."

[00:52:34] And then they go, "Hey, my course, normally I'd sell it for $40,000. Normally, it's a hundred thousand dollars worth of value, but just this second, for the next 50 minutes, I will give this to you for $2,000." And they're coaching you through the little credit card application.

[00:52:50] Jordan Harbinger: You're on the phone with a credit card company and they're coaching you to do this?

[00:52:53] Coffeezilla: Yeah. You're like sitting there and they're like, 'Hey, this is what you're going to say. Go ahead, call them right now and let's swipe that card, baby. Let's swipe that card before you leave the seminar."

[00:52:59] They're left with a $40,000 collection debt, you know, for a high-interest rate. They can't pay it back. They're not making the money they were promised. And then there's a money-back guarantee? There's not a money-back guarantee.

[00:53:12] Jordan Harbinger: To hear more about how to expose predatory shysters for what they are by delving into their shady manipulation tactics, check out episode 368 of The Jordan Harbinger Show with Coffeezilla.