1101: Church, Steeple, and the Trafficked People | Feedback Friday

1101: Church, Steeple, and the Trafficked People | Feedback Friday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback. Friday producer, who's you're just holding the largest Que Bonito mug that probably exists now that I think about it. Courtesy of our awesome listener, Stephanie Keller. Gabriel Mizrahi.

[00:00:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And I see you've got yours there too, right?

It says, not your lawyer.

[00:00:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, and I've said it before. Not only am I stoked that it says not your lawyer, I'm stoked that it holds approximately enough coffee to kill a baby elephant, should it be administered to said baby elephant. But for me, it gets me outta bed in the morning here when it's all rainy.

Like it is

[00:00:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: right now. Even in California. These mugs are pretty amazing. Shout out to Stephanie for these awesome holiday gifts. We're big fans over here. Definitely not official cab merch. Yes, we won't tell the company, but I love that she made these custom mugs for us. They're super nice.

[00:00:50] Jordan Harbinger: They're pretty great.

I'm always amazed when people can actually make commercial quality stuff like this as a hobby. It's very impressive. I appreciate you. So I can't even make commercial quality stuff as a career. So here we are. Thanks for listening to the show. By the way, speaking of low quality, not fit for commercial use on the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people.

And turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, national security advisors, astronauts, generals, rocket scientists, fortune 500 CEOs, music moguls.

This week we had legendary author James Patterson on writing creativity and being the bestselling author on the entire planet that has ever lived as far as we know. Really interesting and sharp dude. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, share wild updates on previous episodes, which is actually kind of where I want to begin today because crazy actually update for you guys that surprised me.

I found out I was reading the New York Times. Y'all remember Nouri Turkel? He's an attorney. He's a public official. He's author of the book, no Escape, the True Story of China's Genocide Of The Uyghurs. He's also a past guest on this show talking about how China targets and oppresses the Uyghur population.

Y'all remember that? That was episode seven 30, by the way.

[00:02:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Incredible one.

[00:02:07] Jordan Harbinger: It was pretty extraordinary to say the least. Nouri, of course, is fascinating. He was born into a reeducation camp in Kashgar China, and the state interned his mother when I think she was six months pregnant. So Nouri lived in the detention center as a baby for the first few months of his life.

Years later, he comes to the US for graduate school, and I believe he never went back to China. So he leaves his mother, he leaves his whole family, his whole life behind. He's one of the most outspoken critics of the Chinese Communist Party. So you can imagine why he couldn't return amazing news. China just released his mother Aisha from the country after 20 years.

So she and two other Uyghurs were included in a prisoner swap between the United States and China in November. So basically we gave Chinese spies back and they gave us innocent people that they had interned because they were uyghurs. Anyway, don't get me started on that. This is amazing news. 'cause I imagine Nouri had.

Probably by this point somewhat made peace with the idea that he was never going to see his mother again, which is heartbreaking. And I immediately sent him a text 'cause I saw the names of the prisoner swap and I was like, wait a minute. That's not a coincidence. He shared a little more detail with me as a response.

He said she wasn't imprisoned the whole time. She was subjected to regional travel restrictions so she couldn't go anywhere. She lived under constant surveillance and harassment by the state on top of social isolation for many years. Not that she was in like a solitary confinement, but if you are being monitored by the state and everyone knows you're being monitored by the state, the last thing that anyone is gonna do is come hang out at your house.

'cause they're gonna get arrested and they're gonna have the same problem. So you're basically a pariah and nobody even wants to talk to you. House arrest at best House arrest at best. Yeah. So he says, I had not seen my mother since 2004. Had only spent 11 months with my parents since leaving China 29 years ago.

My mother suffered immensely, beginning with her arrest while pregnant with me. Her offense was being her father's favorite child and answering the door to his visitors, who are also under the watchful eyes of the authorities in the late 1960s. So that's also, of course why his mother now also can't hang out with people because you go to prison for that, even if you're a pregnant woman.

During that era of repression, her father, so his mother's father re's grandfather, once an official in the short-lived Second East Turkistan Republic, he became a target. Red guards sent him to a camp and accused him of being intoxicated with separatist ideology, which is the most communist thing that I've heard in a while.

Similarly, my father Akim, an educator and public intellectuals, spent three years in labor camps for having relatives across the Soviet border. His crime was to have been infected with Soviet ideology, which I gotta admit not to go all history nerd. But I was surprised to hear that communist China would imprison someone for having ties to another communist country.

One that supported them and that they fought alongside no less. But I feel like that had to be a pretense for just targeting Uyghurs because his crime was having relatives. It's not like his relatives were communist party officials in the Soviet Union. They just lived there. Which by the way, you couldn't leave that country either.

It's not like you could just walk outta the Soviet Union and be like, you know what? I prefer China. I'm gonna go live over here. They were both keeping people in. So that's what makes me think it's just pretense for targeting Uyghurs. Like, ah, we're gonna arrest you and your crime is your cousins live across the whatever.

Anyway, Gabe, do you wanna read that section of the article? This was incredibly moving.

[00:05:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure. Yeah. So it goes early on Thanksgiving morning while driving to Dulles Airport from my flight to Texas where I was to meet my mother, I received a call from a US official who put her on the phone. Son, I am on a US government plane and free, she said, I don't know what to say.

So happy beyond words. For so long, I lived with the constant fear that one day I might receive the unthinkable news of my mother's imprisonment. Or worse, just as I lost my father over two years ago. But when I heard my mother's voice hope prevailed and the long held darkness lifted, that fear and the unthinkable are no longer part of my life.

At the US joint base in San Antonio, Texas, I watched my mother descend the plane's star, supported by a US diplomat and greeted by a military commander in uniform. A wave of emotions washed over me and I ran toward my mother. We embraced tears streaming down our faces, overwhelmed by the reality of our long awaited reunion.

I. Her first words, thank God I'm here with you, and I won't be alone when I die. Shattered and mended my heart all at once. This has been more than a reunion. It's the restoration of a piece of my soul. Words cannot fully express my gratitude. That's quite a passage.

[00:06:34] Jordan Harbinger: It really is extraordinary. It's so intense, right?

It kind of makes you tear up when you read it. I certainly did. I just wanted to share that great news with you guys. I know his interview was very popular when it came out. And I'd love for the handful of people who listen to the show and stand for the CCP to justify this. There aren't many of you, right?

But we do get emails from time to time saying, Hey, look, you're too hard on the Chinese government. You lose your mind when you talk about China. There's no Uyghur Roundup taking place. That's American propaganda. Look at this YouTube video made by some influencer about how tolerant China is. And look, he's shopping in Xinjiang, yada, yada, yada.

I would love to hear how this whole thing is somehow fake. What's gonna happen is they're gonna go, Ugh. Look how many people the US incarcerates for drug crimes. They're gonna engage in what? Aboutm, because that's all you can do at this point, is just try to distract from the conversation. This is literally happening.

My friend's mother was not allowed to leave the country because of her ethnicity period and her family's political affiliations. So it's like, how can you simp for China? When there are firsthand reports of this stuff happening, it just does not compute for me. We are allowed to criticize the crap out of the US government, the prison system.

We do that all the time. You are not allowed to do that in China. Okay? Explain to me why. Anyway, I'll wrap this up by quoting Nuri one last time. Here may this moment inspire renewed efforts to reunite all separated families and restore the dignity and freedom that they deserve. Also one more wild story before we dive in here.

Che Nti, who has also been on the show a couple times and is a good friend of mine, he is crossing Antarctica on foot right now. This is so crazy. Literally, he's walking, okay, which by the way, there's not like a trail system there. There's not roads. This is Antarctica. For people who don't know, I told a friend of mine and she was like, oh, so is he stopping in cities?

There are no cities, there's nothing there. This is not a country, there's no government. He's on day something like 62, 63, whatever, of 110. So slightly over halfway. He posts audio messages and a tracker on his website, which will link in the show notes Fear Vana, F-V-A-R-V-A-N a.com. Nobody's ever done this before.

That's one reason why it's special. The audio messages, they're cool, but they're a little chilling 'cause it's like, Hey guys, really big day-to-day cross. This mountain ridge pulled up 430 pounds of supplies on sleds and it's the kind of audio where they play it during the documentary when something horrible happens and it's like really haunting.

And I'm not trying to be funny. I really hope that we don't watch him die doing this. First of all, there's nobody around for hundreds slash thousands of miles. I know he's got a rescue team standing by, but it's not like they're behind him by 10 miles. They're in a place where you can land planes and there's buildings or whatever, like some science station Also, it is freaking cold out there, as you might guess.

I always chuckle to myself 'cause his tracker says negative 20 feels like, and then it's like negative 18, as if that's helpful. And he's out there pulling sleds full of his own supplies. And I know what you're thinking. 400 pounds. Nobody can pull that much. No, he has three sleds. So what he has to do is go up the mountain with 150 pound sled, walk back down the mountain.

Or hill, go back and hit another sled to his harness, walk back up the mountain, put that thing down and anchor it, walk back down and get the other sled. So he's like, Hey, the plus side is, it's getting lighter as I use the stuff, and I'm just thinking, yeah, okay, that's a little bit of cold comfort, if you'll pardon the pun.

What a nightmare, dude. It's a nightmare. But that's like his thing. He's like, what's the most painful thing I can do? And he's like, Jordan, I'm telling you man, I've been in the dark for eight days. You should totally do this. And I'm like, what do you mean dark? He's like, I'm in a dark room and people feed me through a slot.

I haven't seen any light. I've been hallucinating for four days. You came across my mind. I just wanna say, I love you, man. And I'm like, why are you doing this to yourself? A 20 day meditation retreat wasn't painful enough. I have to be in the dark next time, or I have to only eat liquid food and be in the dark and there's no sound.

It's just bonkers. Anyway, speaking of insane, Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag? I.

[00:10:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I live by a large church built in 1800. My husband has been involved with this church since childhood. We were the last couple to get married there. Eventually, the church had very few followers and my husband assisted in selling it.

The gentleman who bought the church will call him Bob, is a charming businessman and event organizer from a large city. Bob told my husband that he envisioned turning the church into a not-for-profit art gallery slash theater to host art and comedy shows. It all sounded suitable for the most part. My husband was desperate and felt this was a good fit because it seemed better than living next to a church that needed extensive upkeep and repair.

Since then, I've learned more about Bob's reputation and business practices. He's bought multiple properties in our area and surrounding towns, fixed them up and rented them out. That's not the problem. The problem is the rumors that he has been involved and human trafficking. I'm not sure of all the details, but it seems law enforcement either did not pursue the allegations or possibly didn't have enough evidence and the charges were dropped.

Bob has hosted a few events in town during the summer, including comedic performances, a DJ set, and women posing on stage. The women were in swimsuits or very revealing clothing, and I've been told the performances were subpar. I'm euphemism for, I mean,

[00:11:50] Jordan Harbinger: is there a par for this? Yeah, we're gonna ogle female bot.

You know what, the ogling is only a C minus or the alage. Uh, it doesn't, yeah. Where's the par?

[00:12:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Anyway, continue. Another concerning piece of information is that one of the potential future tenants of the church has a history of being a sex worker and has a young daughter, about eight years old. There are rumors that Bob has interacted with the child in ways that some describe as grooming behavior.

I. This triggered me to investigate further. When I looked up Bob on social media, he initially came across as a legitimate businessman involved with some charities, but further digging revealed that he's hosted events in the large city he's from, where young women meet financially well off men under the guise of empowering women.

While I have no issue with women networking or dating wealthy men, it seems like something that could easily be misinterpreted or turn illegal. I also can't help but wonder if Bob chose our town knowing we have limited law enforcement to monitor his business practices. Bob has now moved someone into the church to work on the renovations with rumors of plans to move in tenants.

According to my neighbors, many of the people working on the church have questionable backgrounds and some have criminal histories. Instead of paying them with money, Bob has reportedly given one individual a car as compensation. Multiple people have approached me with concerns about Bob's reputation and his plans for the building.

I don't have any hard evidence of human trafficking, but I wouldn't be surprised if Bob bought these properties as a means to launder money, earn through human trafficking or other shady business practices. My yard is not far from the church where my children play and the bus stop is right in front of it.

I've considered contacting someone who works in human trafficking prevention slash investigation, but I lack evidence, just a lingering gut feeling that something isn't right. On one hand, I could be wrong, and Bob simply lied about his not-for-profit intentions. On the other hand, I could end up living next to a place promoting human trafficking or laundering money.

Am I overreacting? What would you do, Gabe? Work your magic. Looking forward to an awesome sign off. No,

[00:14:01] Jordan Harbinger: no. I told you guys not to encourage him. Signed. Here we go. A really weird smile is now forming on Gabe's mouth right now. You've created a monster

[00:14:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: wondering if I have the impetus to go straight up Leviticus on all the criminal wickedness being done by this villainous antithesis of a church's appropriate simpleness, which is now ruining my blissfulness pause to make sure you're actually

[00:14:26] Jordan Harbinger: done.

Okay, so the only Provably criminal act in this segment is that sign off because you slay, which as I'm sure you know, violates section 1 0 4 B of the California penal code. Look, ask and you shall receive for sure. Yeah guys, but please don't ask. This show is long enough as it is. I

[00:14:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: gotta keep mc sign off over here in check.

By the way, she included a link to Bob's personal website and is Instagram and. This guy is exactly what you're picturing. He kinda looks like, how would you describe him, Jordan? Like he looks kinda like a cross between a Sopranos character and a used car salesman. Yeah.

[00:15:00] Jordan Harbinger: If everyone in the Sopranos is talking at a table, he's on the end and he's just an extra No lines.

Just the face. Yeah, just the, there's also tons of pictures of imposing with women at his networking events straight out of central casting. I mean, he's a real estate guy that runs Shady beauty pageants. Where have I heard that he should run? For president. Really?

[00:15:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: What is this website built on? It's like geo cities.

[00:15:22] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it It is so janky. It's janky as hell. It's so perfect, man. These headshot look like a mob bus running for mayor of a third tier city. That's sharkskin suit is just blinding. Doesn't work with the flesh. What a character.

[00:15:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: I also love how he capitalizes every fifth word in his website. Copy. Like, okay, Benjamin Franklin.

Yeah.

[00:15:39] Jordan Harbinger: Maximum impact is not a proper noun, bro. Why are you capitalizing? This is not high German. You didn't trademark that. Anyway, I'm sorry that you're living next to this guy's new standup comedy theater slash brothel or whatever, and that he's causing so many waves in your town. You gotta give him some credit for combining

[00:15:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: those two

[00:15:56] Jordan Harbinger: genres of business.

Like, oh man, it's Tuesday. Not a lot of customers for the brothel. That's fine. We have open mic night, so we have a killer lineup

[00:16:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: at the chuckle pit.

[00:16:05] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Exactly. He definitely seems a little suss. He's clearly into some unsavory business practices and I get why you're concerned. At the same time, as you pointed out, you do not have hard evidence that he's engaged in criminal activity.

A lot of this is based on rumor or assumptions, which is a massive obstacle to proving anything. And it also, it might be somewhat unfair to hold against him.

[00:16:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I hear that. But at the same time, when you hear multiple rumors from multiple sources that all arrive at the same conclusion, it's like it does carry

[00:16:36] Jordan Harbinger: some weight, especially in a small town where word gets around pretty easily.

But that doesn't make it true. And again, his website's not doing him any favors. He's pretty out there with the whole like, Hey, I pose with beautiful young women at networking events. That's his brand and he's leaning into it. So I get why you're concerned. And all signs point to something shady going on here, but shady and unsavory are just, they are meaningfully different from criminal and even criminal is different from provable prosecutable.

We wanted to talk to an actual expert here. Again, I'm not your lawyer according to this mug, so we've reached out to defense attorney and friend of the show, Corbin Payne, and the first thing Corbin said was that human trafficking has a notoriously wide and ambiguous definition. This is probably by design.

It's hard to tell from your letter of what Bob is doing is truly human trafficking. Also, like you said, you don't have a ton of hard evidence, just a mix of rumors and observations, which again, it's not irrelevant. But it's not like slam dunk proof that Bob is working with shipping containers full of people, so to speak.

But Corbin did say that the construction industry and contractors in general, they can just be a bit scummy about how they treat people. Look, I know there's tons of contractors listening that are like, Hey, hey, hey, hey. We don't mean you. We mean the other people that you know that you don't work with because they're scummy.

He said that he was hearing enough to think that Bob's enterprise, his whole way of doing business, they might be exploitative. So here are a few things Corbin said you might wanna be aware of. First. The sort of folks who work for people like Bob, they're often desperate. People with criminal backgrounds, they can struggle to find work.

They're often reduced to accepting whatever they can get, which means they regularly have to put up with a lot of mistreatment that other people could just walk away from. They often have no recourse. The arrangements they enter are, they're technically voluntary and the powers that be generally don't care if ex-convicts get treated poorly, which is really sad and not the way you rehabilitate somebody into society, but I digress.

Same goes for immigrants or people whose residency situations are shaky. They can't go to the police like, Hey, my boss is mistreating me. They can't go to a lawyer and sue their employer for harassment or unpaid wages or whatever because the police will often report them to ice and they risk deportation.

And point being to quote Corbin here, it's excruciatingly difficult to prove a case like this because the victims are more afraid of the authorities than they are of their exploiters, and they're not wrong to be afraid. So the question becomes, who does care about the victims of exploitation and who's motivated enough to do something about it?

Corbin's advice is to start with local nonprofits. There may not be an anti-trafficking nonprofit in your area, but there are probably a bunch of them nationally and many that would be willing to step in and help or at least advise. If anyone in Bob's orbit who's being exploited had access to resources to help with housing, employment, medical care, all that stuff, that can go a long way in getting them out of a bad situation and away from the person exploiting them.

And if nothing else, Corbin said that. Resources that help people plug into a community of others who speak the same language or who have all gone through something similar like prison, that makes a huge difference. And he pointed out that people with community. They have access to more people with more ability to actually help them.

They have a greater sense of strength, self-worth. They're harder to exploit basically. And by the way, this can also encompass you and your friends, your family, your neighbors. Even something as simple as the occasional friendly wave can actually make a big difference, especially in a small community forging some sort of friendly relationship with these folks.

It really could be huge. And just to be clear for you, that might mean looking for small ways to support vulnerable women in his orbit or innocent contractors. I'm not necessarily advising you to buddy up to any scary hardened criminals who are doing the drywall on the church. Although, who knows?

Honestly, maybe some of those folks are decent too. You really don't know. I've met a lot of amazing people working in prisons. Now. All of that helps victims, but it doesn't address the injustice of somebody being trafficked. It's nice to get people out of bad situations, of course, but as long as somebody out there is willing and able to exploit people, they're just gonna create more victims.

[00:20:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: And you still face the fact that proving a case like this against somebody like Bob is pretty difficult.

[00:20:42] Jordan Harbinger: Corbin said that to get Bob arrested, tried and convicted, that would involve at a minimum, a witness willing to talk to the police. They have to testify before a grand jury and or in a preliminary hearing.

They've gotta testify at motions hearings. They gotta testify at trial. That's not an easy task. And if people are in fact being exploited or trafficked by Bob Corbin said that they're gonna be precisely the sort of people who want to do none of those things, much less all of those things.

[00:21:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: So the best way to stop somebody like Bob in Corbin's view is to help as many people that he might be hurting as possible.

Maybe somebody will be willing to step forward at some point and say, yeah, this guy exploited me. He coerced me into spending time with his clients. He didn't pay me what he promised, or he paid me under the table, gave me a Chevy Malibu, or whatever it is. The odds of that happening increase with the number of people who managed to escape this guy's clutches.

So again, Corbin would encourage you to make personal connections with some of these people while you activate some nonprofits and see what they advise. Now, this can work on a few levels. In one way, it can provide immediate, practical help to anybody who's being exploited. It can find them housing, it could connect them with a different job.

It could help them get an attorney, whatever it is they need. And at the same time, it could kickstart a numbers game for getting a good cooperating witness down the line if of course there is truly illegal activity going on here.

[00:22:03] Jordan Harbinger: Solid advice. Look, I do have a dark Jordan pitch here, but it's gonna require some investment on your part and it'll mean taking on some personal risk yourself.

[00:22:12] Lip Filler Clip: You really adopted the dark.

[00:22:14] Jordan Harbinger: I was born in it. What if you message this guy posing as a woman looking to, you know, join his community or whatever. You could use an AI generated photo so you don't catfish him using someone else's real photo. Like that guy from the letter we took a couple weeks ago. Make it a good one.

Ask him how he can help you achieve your goals or get ahead or, I don't know, find a husband or whatever. He might not be dumb enough to put his whole skeezy strategy in writing, although his website suggests that he just might, but he could inadvertently reveal some other information that's useful or he could say just enough to get the cops interested.

Even darker Jordan, you could place a listening device in the church while it's being renovated. You could hook it up to your wifi 'cause you live next door and you've got a microphone streaming everything that gets talked about in that place. Now this is, by the way, highly illegal. So naturally I am not telling you to do this.

It wouldn't necessarily be, of course, admissible as evidence in any sort of trial, but it would vary theoretically and hypothetically tell you everything that's going on in there. But this is such a bad idea. You should definitely not do it. I'm not even being cheeky anymore. Definitely don't do that. I'm just throwing out advice that you know, somebody should not follow because that's what dark Jordan does.

A better dark Jordan idea, or maybe gray Jordan. Submit a tip to whatever agency oversees renovations and constructions in your town. Tell them about any suspicious activity happening around the work site. You might have to file a few of those complaints, but somebody should come out and look and if they find one thing, they're gonna find 10 things, especially if they wanna find 10 things I.

I might also consider putting up some subtle cameras on your property pointing at the church and see if you catch anything suss. So maybe there's weird cars pulling up at three o'clock in the morning. Maybe you notice people with duffel bags or briefcases or something weird like that going in and out.

Tons of women coming and going at all hours of the day and night. And if then, if you ever do go to the police, you can show them the camera footage. Like, Hey, here's some evidence. Here are license plate numbers, here are timestamps. You can see for yourself, something's not right here. If the cops see known criminals or gang members or whatever going into that place in and out every day at two o'clock in the morning, they're gonna know something's up as opposed to, you know, okay, the landlord of the church, he's weird, go check it out.

And they roll by and they don't see anything for that five minute period. They're never gonna believe you again. I'm sorry this is happening in your area. I know it's gross. I know it's unsettling. It might also be a situation that you need to make some peace with. If Bob is mostly keeping this within the letter of the law, the fact that he's doing it in a church makes it all worse.

But it's his property now. It's not a church anymore. Unfortunately, you can't manage every aspect of this guy's business or convince every person in his orbit to stop associating with him. But you can keep digging, taking notes, documenting things, alerting the proper authorities when it's warranted, and looking for ways to directly support people who might be being exploited or hurt by him.

And that might be enough to help and feel okay about all of this. I love your concern and your eagerness to help and good luck, Gabe. I don't know if they even do this anymore, but if this is such a small town that there's only a sheriff or whatever she mentioned, what if the husband becomes a deputy?

Like you know, Hey, I'm a volunteer part-time, had to go to a training course in the capital city, but now I'm back and they call me when there's a big thing. Okay, so now a cop lives next door. Has clout enough with the local law enforcement to be like, Hey, there's something going on here. He's documenting it.

Or he knocks on the door in his uniform in six months and he is like, Hey, we're getting reports of something going on in here. Maybe those reports are from his wife, but whatever. There are ways to do this where Bob goes, this is no longer profitable for me because the heat's on, so I'm gonna put this place back on the market.

I like it. That's a real small townish right there. Very small townish. Yeah, it's very Ozark to do something like that. Alright, and now we're gonna traffic in the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show and you won't even have to traffic any miners to afford them.

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[00:28:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: All right, next up. Hello Jay Dizzle and Grizzle. Oh gosh. Wow. That's a new one. J Diz and Grizz. I actually really like it. I won't be mad if I see that again. It goes on. A couple days ago, I locked myself out of the house.

My family and I live in a semi-rural area where house sitting for a couple who's outta the country, and after calling over five locksmiths, I finally got one who would come out. The company said the cost would depend on many things, so they couldn't give me a quote over the phone. When the locksmith got to my house, he took a look at the lock and said it would be $475 to try and pick it or $675 to drill into the deadbolt and then replace it.

Part of the fee was a $129 service charge for driving all the way out to me, which I would need to pay even if he didn't do anything. My wife and 1-year-old were out running errands and I was worried we wouldn't be able to get back in the house. I panicked hard and told him I didn't know how I could pay that.

He just said, sorry, that's what it is. I ended up paying him. It took him less than five minutes to get in. I got ripped off bad after he left. I really freaked out. I'd been so stupid. There were so many less expensive options. Heck, it would've been cheaper to break a window and buy a new one after down a few days later, I realized that I didn't tell this guy to F off because I'm so scared of conflict.

I also think the fact that this isn't our house and that the couple who owns it weren't available, contributed to my fog and panic if I were in touch with the anger I feel after these moments pass. I know I would be ready to stand up to someone like this and negotiate, but that's just not how I'm wired.

I'm a conflict averse kind of guy, but that fear of conflict just hurt my family's finances significantly. I know you have many episodes on communicating and negotiating, but I don't feel like I have many opportunities to practice playing hardball in my daily life. My wife and I argue sometimes. Sure.

But there aren't any real stakes because I know we're on the same team. At the end of the day, the only practice I can think of is going to haggle at a car dealership all the while knowing I'm just gonna walk away. That's funny. There's the answer. Just go to a car dealership and pretend you wanna buy a Ford Focus like once a week.

Yeah, exactly. So problem solve

[00:30:25] Jordan Harbinger: seven to 10. Pretend Ford Focus. Ford Focus. I foci should fix this in no time.

[00:30:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: How do I prepare for these rare situations where I'm vulnerable and actually need to step up? Any tips on being in high stakes negotiations? Signed, try not to fold or get rolled or controlled by these cold bros who are after my billfold.

[00:30:47] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Just fight more with your wife in worse ways that are higher stakes. You're welcome. Exactly. Threaten to leave. Yeah. That's all you need. Just threaten to get divorced at every little drop of a head and you'll eventually master this. First of all, I'm sorry this happened. It is so frustrating and this is a chunk of change.

I totally get why you're beating yourself up for it. It hurts to look back at a situation like this and know that you could have handled it better, but that's how we learn.

[00:31:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, I gotta say, just to put this guy at ease a little bit, the locksmith industry is notoriously shady. It's riddled with scams or just like sketchy practices in general.

I've read a bunch of articles about this over the years. It's gross business from what I can tell

[00:31:23] Jordan Harbinger: for sure. I think the show reply all, which doesn't exist anymore, even did a whole episode about locksmith scams way back when. But look, I. Even if a locksmith isn't actually scamming you, even if they're just charging you a ton, they've got you over a barrel.

It's really hard to tell an actual person who's standing in front of you, yeah, no, you can drive back. Now, I'm not doing this. It's so awkward. They know that 99% of people are not gonna tell them to screw off once they've driven an hour and a half and they're staring into their soul like, what's it gonna be, pal?

The expensive option or the disgustingly expensive option. So you are not the only person to fall victim to these people. I'm sure it happens constantly. And I gotta say, I love your mindset here. I appreciate that you're noticing that this quality is making you vulnerable. You wanna work on it. That's terrific.

So just to get this outta the way, the first big takeaway here is not to ask a locksmith or any vendor to drive out without giving you a quote or at least a ballpark figure or a range. 'cause I imagine that's how they create this high pressure situation where they're standing in front of you, your door's locked, and you can't get in.

You feel like you have no option but to accept a ridiculous quote. I, it wouldn't even surprise me if they got there and they're like, oh, he's with a baby. Yeah, I'm doubling the price

[00:32:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: now. Oh man. Yeah, and if a vendor says, yeah, I can't give you a quote until I get there, then I would just keep calling more vendors and try to get somebody who can commit somewhat.

I actually had to call a locksmith recently to break into a lockbox that stopped working and the guy told me on the phone how much it would be in advance. Maybe lockbox are different from actual lock, but I feel like a lot of locksmiths out there are on the level.

[00:32:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You had to call locksmith when we lived in San Francisco and the guy got in in like 10 seconds.

But what he did was illustrate how insecure our door actually was, and he charged 150 bucks, but he came out on a Sunday night in, I don't know, I think we were waiting there for 15 minutes. So I was like, okay, I paid for that service. And we laughed and he was like, yeah, sorry. This is how much my boss charges.

It wasn't like, ah, you idiots. He was a kid. And so I get it, but again, that was a hundred or 150 bucks, not $500. Also, you could have paid this guy his $129 drive out fee at worse and found someone more reasonable. So that's a lesson learned, and you won't make that mistake again. Although, now that I think about it, I truly get the sense that $129 service fee was essentially tacked on at the last minute.

And he just made that up. So unless he disclosed that over the phone and you agreed to that in advance, I am saying you don't owe the guy anything. I think the reason that he does that is because then if you say no, you're like, but then I still have to pay him sunk costs fallacy, yada yada. So he builds that in at the last minute.

Oh man. Because

[00:33:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: that's a good point. Yeah, I

[00:33:56] Jordan Harbinger: think he does that. If you pull the ripcord now, it's not that you're off the hook, you still have to pay me. And it's like, no, you didn't tell me that. There's no contract to get off my

[00:34:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: porch. The other lesson is to keep a lockbox on the property. So if you ever lock yourself out again, you don't need a locksmith, but I'm sure you've already thought of that

[00:34:09] Jordan Harbinger: key in the planter or whatever.

But let's dig into the real issue here. Look, there's nothing more normal than wanting to avoid conflict with another person, but obviously not being able to engage in necessary conflict means that other people can take advantage of you, especially vendors like Locksmiths. They've practiced this a bunch.

They're probably doing several of these calls a day. So they're used to hanging in the awkwardness of holding firm and then laughing all the way to the bank. If they're crooked, and there's locksmiths who aren't right now, who are like, Hey, you're painting with a broad brush here. So look, those guys, unethical people in situations like this, like mechanics who offer you have your car up already, they have a few advantages and they've done this.

This is their business. What I wanna know is what happens to you in these moments of conflict? What's going on in your brain? Slow down this response, relive this freak out You had, what was actually going on for you? Because it sounds like these exchanges aren't just uncomfortable, they're borderline terrifying.

So let's dig into those responses. Let's trace 'em back. What is it about the pressure of a negotiation that triggers this fear? What is the fear? When you get down to it, what are you afraid the other person will do or think? If you say, yeah, sorry, I'm not playing this game with you, what other thoughts or feelings do these moments bring up for you?

For example, you said you were afraid that you and your wife and child wouldn't be able to get back into the house, but is that true? Your wife, she was out running errands. She might have had a key too, right? So you could have waited it out, or if she didn't have a key, you could have called a different locksmith.

[00:35:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Or maybe he was already beating himself up for locking himself outta the house in the first place. Maybe that brought up some embarrassment or self-judgment. So by the time this locksmith arrived, emotions might have already been running pretty high.

[00:35:49] Jordan Harbinger: You also said the fact that this isn't your house, the couple who owns it wasn't available.

That contributed to the panic. So I wonder if your feelings about this couple or how you imagined they would react to your mistake, maybe that played a role too,

[00:36:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: or maybe when they didn't answer your call, that made you feel alone in this problem. Like you didn't have any backup, right? It was all on you.

And maybe that's part of what's so stressful about these moments.

[00:36:11] Jordan Harbinger: Totally. Look, I'm sure that amped up the stakes on the whole thing. My buddy, a long time ago. There was a broken lock and we had done something where the key had gotten stuck in the lock and now the door wouldn't lock. And we were gonna go out to eat.

And I'm like, okay, let's scrap the dinner plans. And I'm like, okay, what we're gonna do is go to Home Depot and replace the lock. And he's like, uh, it's not that simple, my man. I can't tell my wife that we replaced the lock. And it was this whole thing about how she'd been asking him to replace the lock before and he didn't do it.

So now it's broken and she's gonna blame him and get really mad. I'm like, okay. What we can do then is just replace the lock in the keys, and then we had to go through this whole rigmarole of like, but then there's a cat sitter and she has a key. We're gonna have to replace that. But the cat sitter's friends with the wife, so they're gonna tell, and then he's gotta get her keys when she's not looking and make sure that he's home when answer the door.

It was like this whole cycle of crazy sitcom level antics to get around the idea that he might just have to tell his wife that we went to Home Depot and replaced the lock finally, which he had been asking him to do. But why'd you do it now? Suddenly, oh, well it broke. I told you. It's just, okay, do we really need to just fricking do this easy part?

But there's all this psychological stuff that was preventing that and making it seem

[00:37:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: harder than it was. Interesting. So you're saying like sometimes our brains amp up the stakes when they're not really real to the point where things stop making sense. Right. That could be part of it.

[00:37:35] Jordan Harbinger: I really feel like he could have gone, Hey, we went to Home Depot and replaced that lock.

By the way, here's your key. I hit a key onto the mattress for when you come home. It

[00:37:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: seems

[00:37:42] Jordan Harbinger: so simple.

[00:37:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: On a related note, I'm also interested in that fog he described. I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that his first feeling is just pure panic. Right? Just anxiety. And then the fear kicks in. What am I gonna do?

How am I gonna tell this dude to F off? What are other people gonna think? And then this fog sets in and it sounds like it's almost like a mild dissociation, maybe it's sounds like the freeze or fawn

[00:38:04] Jordan Harbinger: response to stressful situations.

[00:38:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it does. But it might also be a way to ward off these stressful feelings or distance himself from them.

[00:38:13] Jordan Harbinger: I could see that. And then he comes out of the fog and he is like, what the hell? I could have handled that so much better. But the thing is, he's not in that moment of stress anymore. So he's holding himself to his standard that he can't equate live up to in the moment.

[00:38:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yet. But you know, a really important piece of that.

And something else I'm really interested in is this anger that he describes. Yeah, I think that's a really important element here. So he said that if he were in touch with the anger he feels after these moments pass, then he would be able to do all sorts of things. He'd be able to stand up to someone like this and tell them to F off or negotiate down.

I think he's right that this panic, this fog, they are shortcircuiting his cognition. They're making it hard to access his very appropriate and potentially quite useful anger.

[00:38:52] Jordan Harbinger: Although the question is, is he angry at the other person or is he angry at himself? It's probably a little bit of both. But he's also saying that he's a conflict averse person in general, which means he's probably found himself in situations like this many times over the years.

[00:39:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. So one way to look at this is that his anger is the byproduct of not standing up for himself. So the anger has probably built up over time because it's not getting discharged or worked through in some process of productive conflict. Another way to look at it is that his anger, even when it's warranted, like when a vendor is literally scamming him.

That emotion might feel shameful or awkward or even dangerous to him. There might be something unpleasant to him about just being worked up at all. Maybe there are some judgments associated with that as well. I don't know. And so shrinking away from conflict might also be a way to skirt around that feeling so he doesn't have to really feel it in the first place.

[00:39:43] Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. I could see that. So before you can think of this negotiation as a skill, you have to rewind the tape and work on it as a capacity. A capacity to tolerate the feelings that the skill requires, because whether the root of this conflict avoidance is anger or fear or anxiety or shame or whatever it is, at the end of the day, I think winning these conflicts, or at least being able to avoid being scammed, it ultimately comes down to being able to tolerate the tension of the moment.

Just being able to withstand the mild to moderate awkwardness of not caving in when there's a vendor standing on your doorstep,

[00:40:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: which by the way, doesn't just mean tolerating your own thoughts and feelings, but also the other person's thoughts and feelings.

[00:40:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, like the locksmith's anger. Even if he's a scammy son of a bitch, he's gonna be pissed off that he's not getting a victim today.

[00:40:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. That has to be okay to some degree for you to be able to protect yourself, but you might also have to deal with someone else's judgment or their disappointment or their annoyance, or whatever it is that this guy might have thrown back at our friend here, if he had to put his foot down. Also the

[00:40:43] Jordan Harbinger: repercussions of deciding to go a different way, whether that means having to call a few more locksmiths or deal with your day being derailed while you wait for your wife to come home, or having to explain to the people who own the house what happened.

[00:40:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: All of those things I think were in play in this moment, and they can be so overwhelming that they produce this feeling that he calls panic and then they get worse and they produce this feeling. He calls fog. To your point, Jordan, what he's actually in touch with is probably this more primordial feeling called tension.

So the more he can build up his capacity to bear that, the easier the nuts and bolts of conflict will become. So I think this is less about

[00:41:18] Jordan Harbinger: preparing for these situations and more about doing some of this deeper work on what these situations bring up for you. And you can do that on your own. You can do it with a therapist, you can do it with your wife, you can do it with some peers or colleagues.

I just talked to as many trusted people about this as possible. But even if you prepared perfectly for these conflicts, you'd still have to feel what it feels like to tolerate these feelings right there in the moment, which you can't do until it's actually happening. So while you do some of this analysis, I would think of these moments as opportunities to try things in a new way.

Learn more about yourself, adjust, get a little bit better every time. Like I said, I love your eagerness to grow. I love that you're facing this head on. It's absolutely something you can work on, and I know that mindset will serve you well. So good luck and go buy a freaking lockbox on Amazon right now.

Come on, man. By the way, a little negotiation tip that I would like to share, and this is something he could have used in that moment if he had known about it. That locksmith came out and said, oh, I drove so far. So there's the guilt factor, there's the guilt lever, I should say, and this is what it costs.

And then I'm standing in front of you and I've got all this pressure on you. Whenever you're in that moment, take a pause and think, okay, how does the leverage he supposedly has on me, how is that actually leverage that I have on him? Now, this doesn't always work. It's not always the case, but in this case, I would say.

Okay. My leverage is this dude drove an hour and a half out to me, so he's wasted his time. He's trying to make up a new rule where I owe him $129 so that he hasn't wasted his time, but he has wasted his time. He doesn't have any of my money, he doesn't have my credit card on file. He can't charge me for this.

All he could do is try to send me to collections, which I would of course fight and okay, does he expect me to pay him in cash? Who has 500 bucks in cash? He's gonna ask me for a credit card. Okay, I've got an American Express. I could pay him with this and say that he forced that issue and that this wasn't actually the service he provided, and he forced me to pay him with this, and I could dispute the charge.

Now I've got leverage there, and I could just tell him, look man, I'm not going to pay you this amount of money. I'm gonna pay you 1 29 for coming out, and you can open the door. You can go home empty handed. That's the leverage you have. And he would've probably gone, I don't like you, but you know what? I'd rather make $129 than zero.

That's his choice that you could have thrown right back in his face. So whenever somebody's got a bunch of leverage on you, think about how that also might be flipped around back on them. This happens more often than, especially if somebody's already performed a service or drove a long way to get to you, that kind of stuff.

He doesn't have unlimited hours in the day. You can allow him to monetize that time and then of course, don't pay him until the service is completed. Or you pay him up front with a credit card and if he doesn't complete the service, he dispute the charge and he gets nothing. In fact, he loses money 'cause he has to fight that with the credit card company.

He has to pay a fee to do so and then he loses on top of all that. Clever, very clever. I try to do that kind of stuff because I, I get it. I also go, oh my gosh. He's telling us it's gonna cost this. Okay. What I'm gonna do is not use this person, call someone else, write a terrible review, and I will simply tell him that.

I'll say, this guy came over to my house and tried to extort me to clean my HVAC vents at an exorbitant price. That's bad for the whole business. I also tell him things like, have you ever had a thousand negative reviews come into your business over three months? Because I know where to purchase that.

Yes, they're not valid. Good luck fighting every single one. And they go, huh, I get all my business from Yelp and Google. This guy's threatening to destroy that using an unethical technique, but I'm here threatening him in his house with an unethical technique. Maybe I should just like turn around and go home or do the thing.

There are ways that you can take these unethical guys and twist this stuff right around. You can fight fire with fire A little bit

[00:44:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: dark. Jordan making a strong appearance today.

[00:45:00] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Yeah. Look, I don't recommend pulling dark Jordan stuff when someone's standing in your house or like can turn off the power or do something horrible to your electrical system.

But if somebody's gonna try and threaten you to unlock your door, it's like, I'll put some jiujitsu and twist your arm right back, pal. Alright, you can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're struggling to make sense of your spouse's naked networking events, your vicarious, reverse catfishing, someone online, family especially, or your unstable sibling is falsely painting you as a child abuser, whatever's got you staying up at night lately.

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[00:46:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: What's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I live in Puerto Rico with my husband and 12-year-old son in a condo we own in a large building.

My son is neurodivergent. He doesn't have any interest in sports and he's not a studious kid, but he is passionate about business and earning money so he can buy a radio controlled car or a 3D printer. I've supported his entrepreneurial interests by teaching him about how businesses are run, supply and demand taxes, how to interact with customers.

We watch Shark Tank together, stuff like that.

[00:46:38] Jordan Harbinger: Alright,

[00:46:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: so

[00:46:38] Jordan Harbinger: cute. Yeah, it is. I love this. I love that you're nurturing your son's natural talents at such a young age and I love that he's so enterprising. This is really cool and touching. Also, I love playing RC cars with my son, so I'm super on board with all this and my childhood friend just told me that his kids are making thousands of dollars a month with their 3D printer printing topographic, 3D artsy maps of where they live in New Zealand.

Whoa. It's really cool. That's wild. Yeah. That's so cool. The 3D printer, it just prints like a 3D model. Topographically of the whole area where they live, and people love it, so they buy it and it's not cheap. That's insane. Yeah. Really cool.

[00:47:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Just invest that. And there's your college fund. That's crazy.

Exactly,

[00:47:17] Jordan Harbinger: exactly. Or he just learns how to do something

[00:47:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: more useful than going to college. But that's a different episode of this podcast. Not even gonna need college at this point. So the letter goes on. Since he was eight, I've helped him set up stands to sell goods in the lobby of our building. He's sold fruit, kebabs, necklaces, and 3D printed toys from his printer.

Every time he set up his stands, all the residents of the building have been very supportive and enjoyed him and his products. Some even pay extra to support his endeavors. No one has ever complained. Now my son is saving up to buy a new and better 3D printer to upgrade his business and his computer skills.

Yeah, dude, this kid is amazing. He is gonna be running a 3D printing startup one day.

[00:47:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Paying his way through B School with his side hustle, something cool like that. I'm a big fan of this kinda stuff.

[00:48:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: A couple months ago, however, he set up a stand in the lobby only to be told by the building's security guard that he cannot sell there.

We decided to follow the rules and close up shop the next day. I spoke with the president of the board and he said there's a rule that people can't sell in the common areas of the building, even though the actual wording of the rule is that people can't sell stuff in the activity room, which is a separate room from the lobby.

I asked if we could make an exception for residents who are 16 years old or younger. He and the other board members said that they would be in support of that, but after a vote from the board, the president said it would take too long and too much money to amend the rule, so they would not pursue the amendment.

I'm ready to fight for this, but I'm not willing to pay thousands of dollars for a lawyer. I'm also considering doing the stands anyway and just paying the fine for breaking the rules. The neighborhoods here are all gated, so we can't set up a stand in a nearby park or anything like that. What can I do here?

Can the building call the cops for something like this? I don't wanna be arrested in front of my son.

[00:49:03] Jordan Harbinger: All right. Okay. I doubt it. I don't know how it works in Puerto Rico, but I'm gonna guess it's the same as here on the ELO Conte, where violating the CCNRs of a building. It can result in fines, suspension of privileges, there could be court orders, compelling compliance rather than criminal charges.

However, getting that far, they think that it's too much trouble to amend the rule, wait till they try to get a court order. Okay. If things get really bad, the HOA might place a lien on the property or try to initiate foreclosure proceedings. Those are civil issues. They are not criminal issues, and that is way down the pipe and completely insane and gonna be way more expensive than amending the rule that they agreed to amend.

So the only thing I can think of that would get you in criminal trouble is operating a business without the necessary permit or somehow creating a public nuisance. Like you get into an aggressive fight with a neighbor over this. But look, most cops in the states, they're not gonna enforce this crap, and I'm guessing it's even less likely where you are.

So I really wouldn't lose any sleep worrying about

[00:50:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: that. Agreed. Can I send a kindly written email a hundred times a day to each of the board members asking them to reconsider? Or is that harassment?

[00:50:11] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, definitely don't do that. It's only gonna piss off your neighbors. And you want these people on your side as much as possible.

[00:50:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Any dark Jordan ideas. Why do you encourage 'em guys? Signed stopping this board in its tracks or maybe going behind their backs so my son can count his stacks and enjoy the wind at his back.

[00:50:32] Jordan Harbinger: This is a great story. So before we talk about solutions here, I don't wanna lose sight of what a great problem this is to have.

Your son is bright, he's driven, he's creative, he's enterprising. You're encouraging him and empowering him in all these amazing ways. And now you guys are bumping up against these annoying people and administrative nonsense issues as a result. One, you sound like an amazing mom. Supporting your kids like this is a very powerful act.

It could literally change the course of his life. So this tussle with the homeowners association, as annoying as it is, it's kind of a great sign. So here's my take on this. Instead of thinking of this as a problem that requires some kind of legal battle, why don't you and your son just treat it like a business problem?

This could be your son's first major lesson in navigating the challenges of owning a business. This is no different from a company butting heads with local regulators, battling with a competitor, dealing with a difficult vendor. So a few ideas come to mind. First off, if the board members say they'd support an amendment, then they went back on their word, your son could try to lobby them in some way, either by writing them a letter or speaking at the next HOA meeting and make his case for following through on their word.

He could also start by pointing out that the rules say people can't sell stuff in the activity room, but he's doing it in the lobby. And just challenge them to uphold the rule. As it stated, if they go ahead and they amend the rule, you guys can turn around and say, oh, interesting. I thought it was gonna take too much time and money to amend the rules.

So if you're gonna amend it, you can amend it the other way according to the vote that you already took where I came out on top. But also, is it actually even true that it would take too much time and money? Or is the president just saying that because he's lazy and doesn't feel like dealing with this because it's such a small issue.

My money is on that. I think he doesn't wanna deal. I get it. So then why deal with enforcing it? Okay. But what if you and your son did a little research into what it would actually require to change this rule? How much money it would cost for the board to hire whatever attorney, if they even have to do that to change the CCNRs, how much time it would really take.

You could even reach out to a lawyer, maybe somebody you know who would do this as a favor because they like you guys and they find it amusing. Your son could even pitch it to them as an investment in his business education. You'd be amazed how many people would do stuff like this for a smart, precocious kid like your son, and you go back to the board like, Hey, so we looked into it.

It's actually not expensive. It won't take more than a couple hours. We even found a lawyer who will do it pro bono, or we found a way to do it ourselves. It's not a big deal. We ask that we proceed with the amendment and if the president still refuses, he'll have to explain why he won't do this Super easy thing that you guys made even easier.

Also, maybe part of your son's presentation is pitching the building on why it's good for them to allow him to run his stand on the property. It fosters community, it supports kids who wanna build businesses, shutting him down as buzzkill. My hope is maybe hearing all this from your son instead of you would move them, and that would also be your son's first lesson in the power of PR and the power of storytelling.

Another idea he offers to contribute part of his revenue as a kind of tax to the HOL. It's a little mafia, right? Like you gotta pay an extortion fee to the place to allow you to operate, but. I look, I doubt they'd take him up on it. They'd be a-holes if they did. But offering that might be a nice gesture.

It might show them that he's being respectful of the building. It might buy him some brownie points. Maybe the funds are used to increase the activity room or whatever the hell. In other words, investigate all the assumptions here and see if you can change the inputs to get a better output.

[00:53:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: I love these ideas.

Here's another idea. If your son absolutely cannot do his stand in the building, maybe he shifts to selling door to door. My sister and I used to do that in our condo growing up as kids, I used to teach a bunch of the neighbors in the building how to use the computer when computers really took off in the nineties.

And my sister used to sell handmade bracelets to all the people in the building, and we actually made a pretty penny, the two of us. So you know, who knows, maybe your son would have even more success that way. He could make a personal connection with neighbors. Maybe he even tells them this whole story like, Hey, so the HOA shut down my stand because they're dicks, but I'm really passionate about 3D printing and I love doing what I do, and I wanna upgrade and buy a better one, and I wanna be able to pay for my purchases myself.

So I'm selling these cool key chains, or whatever it is he makes. If I'm an adult and a kid tells me that at my door, I'm gonna feel like a really bad person if I say no to him. Whereas it might be easier to walk past a stand in the lobby, you know, on your way out to the garage or whatever. Although they were supporting him there too, but I think door to door he might do even better.

[00:55:00] Jordan Harbinger: Also, that'll teach him door-to-door sales, high touch customer service, which are also amazing skills to have.

[00:55:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: I also really like your idea of doing the stands anyway and just paying the fine. That is another way of looking at this problem. It's just like a business case, right? If your son sells a hundred dollars worth of product and the HOA finds him 20 bucks or whatever every time they catch him, then maybe your son treats it like a cost of doing business, and maybe he uses that as motivation to sell even more so that he minimizes the hit that he takes

[00:55:27] Jordan Harbinger: for sure.

Look, it's funny. This is no different from startups that treat fines from regulators, like speeding tickets on their way to dominating an industry. So true. It's very self-interested and ethically dubious. But you did ask for some dark Jordan ideas, and this is how a lot of companies succeed and transform industries.

I. So I'm actually pretty excited for your son to learn that lesson. Now, while the stakes are low, isn't this kind of what Uber did? They were just like, oh, textbook Uber. Actually, now that I think about it, oh, we're not allowed to run this service here and we're gonna get fined by the taxi authority. Okay?

How much is that? A hundred thousand dollars a month. Great. We're making $300,000 a month. Our investors will fill in the gap. Whatever. It doesn't make any sense to follow crappy rules that you can change by force. Another option is to get creative and look for new sales channels. You said all the neighborhoods are gated.

You can't set up a stand in a park nearby. Okay? But there must be other places. What about setting up at his school or selling one-on-one at school or setting up a stand at sports games or extracurricular activities, or you sell at family events? Again, there's a creative solution to be found here. If he can't sell in the building, where else can he sell?

[00:56:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: I gotta say, Jordan, the more we talk about this, the more excited I'm getting for this kid to get a little mini BA in trying to solve this problem. It's very cool.

[00:56:36] Jordan Harbinger: It is. It looks same here. That's a part of my business slash dad brain that's lighting up as well. Obviously we're spending a decent amount of time pitching all these solutions as if this were a real business run by an adult.

And I understand the stakes are relatively low. In another way, they're not. 'cause what's at stake here is your son's business acumen. His creativity, his confidence, and his sense of agency. The opportunity to learn that he does not have to settle for life as it is. The whole rules are made to be broken in appropriate ways kind of thing.

And he can shape his life. And that is a very powerful lesson. And like I said, learning those lessons early on, that could literally change the course of his life. You know what it reminds me of when I was a kid, my mom, she says this as an adult. The reason she did this was she was too shy. But if I wanted to return something that I bought, like a video game, my mom would not ask the manager to do it.

She made me do it. So I'm this eight or 10-year-old kid going into, I think it was Babbage's, was the story that sold video games. And I'd be like, I don't like this one, or This one doesn't run well on my computer. And usually they'd be fine with it, but sometimes they were like, oh, we don't allow returns of open merchandise.

And I was like, that's not true. I. Your policy has allowed me to do this previously. And they'd be like, oh, we don't allow it. And I'd be like, can I see the policy? And I'd read it in front of them. And then if they still didn't agree to it, my mom would be like, actually, we do this all the time and I'm gonna put my foot down here because you're bullying my son and this is bs.

But it only happened once or twice and I've returned stuff for years or clothes that I didn't like. She'd be like, oh, you want this Eddie Bauer thing, return for store credit, you gotta go do it yourself. And she would stand there while I negotiated with full grown adult on their policy in

[00:58:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: returning. I love this way to go, Bev.

I love that. That's right. She put you in the driver's seat and then she backed you up when you needed it, dot, dot, dot. 25 years later, when you're standing in front of your door and there's a locksmith who's gonna screw you over, you have some muscles built up to stand up to those people.

[00:58:25] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Or I'm negotiating with opposing counsel when I was a lawyer.

I'm not afraid of this.

[00:58:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: I returned Duke Newcombe at Babbage's in 1997. I got this. That's right. I've got this exactly. On that note, I do have one other thought for you. When you sit down with your son to talk about all of this, maybe hold off on pitching all of these solutions and make some room for him to come up with some ideas himself, because Jordan's story just illustrated ultimately, this is about teaching your son, right?

It's about turning this obstacle into a lesson. So it would be really cool if you said to him, so here's what we're dealing with. I think we can get creative here. I think we can find some ways to change the rule or work around the rule. I have some ideas, but I wanna know what you think. Mr. CEO, right? How can we be clever?

What would the Sharks on Shark Tank do you know if if you were one of the sharks, what would you want an entrepreneur you were gonna invest in to do? Let's think through this together and see what he comes up with before you tell him the answer.

[00:59:14] Jordan Harbinger: I like that. That'll be a much more rewarding conversation for both of you.

So I hope you guys can find some ways forward here. I'm pretty sure you can. And even if your son doesn't succeed in every way. Maybe he pivots to some other business, some other model. This is still gonna be a great experience for him. He's lucky to have a mom like you. Keep up the great work. Keep trying to frame this as a fun and interesting exercise, and I know something awesome will come out of it.

I'm genuinely excited for you guys and any parents listening right now. Take note. I know I am. And this is an amazing example of how to cultivate your child's natural abilities and teach them creativity, resilience, responsibility. It's really inspiring and good luck. You know, it's a great use of your son's fruit kebab revenues.

The fine products and services that support this show, we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by the defender. We all have those big goals that seem just outta reach, right? But the truth is that's what keeps us moving forward. For the people who embrace challenges and explore their way, there's the defender.

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This episode is also sponsored by Better Help. What's your 2025 story gonna be? Each new year is a chance to take control of your life, whether it's rewriting a tough chapter or starting something completely new, it's not about resolutions that fade. It's about real lasting change. And this is where therapy comes in.

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[01:01:41] Jen Harbinger: Write your story with Better Help. Visit better help.com/jordan to get 10% off your first month. That's better. hlp.com/jordan.

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[01:02:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 33-year-old woman, and I just had my first baby about six months ago. My husband and I feel so lucky because our son is perfectly healthy and he loves the school that we enrolled him in. So neither of us feels guilty about returning to work. That's great. But wait, he's six months old and he's in school.

I'm so confused. I was confused by this too. I think maybe she means like a mommy and me class or something, but even six months is pretty early for that, right?

[01:03:20] Jordan Harbinger: It does seem, or unless he's some kind of freakish genius who's already talking or something

[01:03:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: like that. That must be it. Yeah. She must have given birth to Stewie from Family Guy.

I don't know. So she goes on. I've been with my company for over 10 years, and I've either been promoted or made strategic lateral moves every two to two and a half years to continuously level up. I spent the past five years laser-focused on building relationships and demonstrating impact. I now have a solid reputation, which has kept me safe from multiple rounds of layoffs and restructures.

While many of my peers have been demoted or moved to other departments, I achieved more than my average peer when I was eight and a half months pregnant and sleeping half the day I could probably coast for the next year and still be on track for a promotion. You sound like a rockstar. So maybe you would have a baby who starts kindergarten at six months old.

Yeah. Watch. Her baby's gonna ride into the show in a couple years. Like, Hey, I'm trying to hit puberty before I turn six. How do I get there? Yeah, hitting some roadblocks. Yeah, so she goes on, but I now feel like I'm stagnating at work and getting bored, but then I'm not sure how much more to take on with a baby at home.

I love my son and I want the time that we spend apart during the week to mean something. I don't want to just collect a paycheck between drop off and pickup. We're in the thick of a sleep regression right now and I want to engage in my career while also being realistic about how much I can do on four hours of sleep.

Do you have any advice for how a new parent can realistically continue to professionally develop? Any advice for sustainable, flexible habits that I can work on to help me keep growing signed, still trying to climb when my little one demands my time and I've said goodbye to a normal bedtime.

[01:05:01] Jordan Harbinger: First of all, huge congrats on the baby.

That is always exciting. No congrats to Gabe for that sign off. That was definitely a step down from Q1, so I think so. I think you should ask her baby for some notes, get some outside counsel.

[01:05:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: He actually already wrote me. He listens to the show the second it comes out, so yeah, he's already

[01:05:20] Jordan Harbinger: into podcast.

That makes sense. Prenatal show fan right there. E. Exactly. Anyway, I also love that you took a moment to acknowledge how lucky you feel that your son is healthy, that he's happy. It's something we can take for granted so easily as parents, there's lots to be grateful for. Second, congrats on building such a successful career.

I'm sure that's not an accident. The fact that you could probably coast for the next year and still get promoted, it is funny, but it, it's really a reflection of all the hard work you've put in or maybe the smart work, this kind of reputation and momentum. Those are assets. I'm super proud of you for developing them.

So you're asking a great question, not just for new moms, but for all parents. We wanted to run this by an expert. So we reached out to Alyssa Cohen, startup coach, investor, and author of the book from Startup to Grownup, and Alyssa said the same thing I just did. She's pumped for you and the baby that you're doing an incredible job navigating New Parenthood while maintaining a strong career trajectory, which is no small feat.

To quote Alyssa here, I wish everyone would put the strategies of building relationships and creating value in place rather than complaining about how they can't get ahead and on four hours of sleep At the moment, no less seriously, four hours of sleep. She's still crushing it, wanting to find ways not to stagnate.

A lot of people are just trying to survive during this phase. So this says a lot about your drive and your capacity. Alyssa also pointed out that becoming a parent, it is such a massive adjustment, and it's perfectly natural to feel torn between your ambitions at work and your responsibilities at home.

The fact that you're even asking these questions, it really does show how much thought you're putting into both roles. But Alyssa also understood why you're feeling stuck right now. You've spent years building a strong reputation, making smart moves, proving your value. So the idea of stagnating, even if it's temporary.

It feels like a step backward, but it was pretty clear to her that you're not somebody who just coasts. So she wanted to reframe this phase. You find yourself in as an opportunity rather than a setback. So Alyssa's first thought was, this is a great time to explore different meanings of growth. The next 12 to 18 months.

They don't necessarily need to be about the next promotion. You can find satisfaction and stimulation by developing skills that will help you both as an executive and as a parent. You can also use this time to think in a more big picture way about your career. For example, where do you wanna be in two or three promotions?

What kind of problems or situations do you want to be managing? What roles or functions do you wanna be taking on? How do you want your days to look? As your child gets older, how much control and flexibility do you wanna have? Just a few questions to guide you. Answering those, figuring out some next steps to work towards them.

Even if you don't go full beast mode, that would be super productive. It might even help you get further ahead in some ways. Alyssa's other recommendation rather than fixate on the next rung on the ladder. You could use this time to build some core leadership skills. For example, you might wanna improve your delegation ability.

That would free up more of your time, give you a step up as a manager, or you could develop your strategic thinking, position yourself as a stronger executive, and that would also push you to ruthlessly prioritize, which is really a superpower, but you get to decide which skills would be most fruitful to invest in.

Whatever you decide to work on. Alyssa said the way to do this intentionally is to give yourself structure. One idea she proposed is you could put a 30 minute meeting with yourself on your calendar each week and use that time to think about key strategic topics or 60 minutes, 90 minutes, whatever. You can budget whatever you feel you need.

For example, what are the biggest changes happening in your industry, your company? What problems keep recurring on your team? What long-term trends could affect your work? Or you could use that time to review what you've delegated to other people and make sure that everything is moving forward. How are those projects going?

Are there other areas you can delegate again. This time is yours for whatever skills you decide to build. These are really just examples. Even if you're not driving towards a specific milestone, Alyssa said that you'll know you're using your time productively for your long-term success. Plus, you'll be intellectually engaged.

Another area for you to consider, and Alyssa stole my thunder here, but I'm glad to hear an elite career coach preaching about this too, is to use this time to continue to build your relationships and to form new ones. You already have great relationships, now might be a good time to expand them externally.

Alyssa pointed out that you're probably meeting a lot of other parents now. So in addition to enjoying their friendship, there might be a few who could be influential peers or mentors or future colleagues. So her advice, be on the lookout for interesting parents in your orbit. See if you can combine play dates and school pickups and other parenting responsibilities with little organic chats.

It's very six minute networking.com, but applied to the new situations that you find yourself in as a mom. So I love this idea.

[01:09:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Alyssa's, final idea for you. Since this stage of your life is requiring you to step back and look at your career in a new way, this would also be a really good time to think about your longer term vision for yourself.

She's a big fan of journaling. She said, writing for 10 minutes a day about your aspirations as a parent, but also in your career. That'll give you some really good insights about where you're going with all of these little habits that we've been talking about. And it'll also probably give you more energy and more purpose because you'll have a better sense of what you're actually trying to achieve and how what you're doing now in this period fits into that picture.

But Alyssa wanted you to know you do not have to do all of this. That might just make you feel even more over committed. So her advice is to just do one thing and see what works for you, and then you can just adjust as you go.

[01:10:43] Jordan Harbinger: And on that note, I wanna remind you, part of your job, especially right now, might very well be to slow down and enjoy your time with your little one.

You've worked your butt off, you've built a lot of capital. I don't think it's the worst idea to cash in some of those chips for a little while. So you can just be like a human being and a present mom. That doesn't necessarily mean you're falling behind. I know it might feel that way at first, but it just means you're directing your time and energy to another hugely important thing.

Arguably the most important thing. I love your hustle. I love your gratitude. I love your thoughtfulness. I know those qualities are gonna serve you very well. Enjoy this time with your son and keep up the great work. Big thanks to Alyssa Cohen for her wisdom here. We're gonna link to Alyssa's book and her podcast from startup to grownup in the show notes.

Of course, along with her five scripts for Delicate Conversations, PDF highly recommend all of those resources. And right now it's time for the recommendation of the week.

[01:11:35] Lip Filler Clip: I am addicted to Lit Fella,

[01:11:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: so my recommendation of the week is a new show on Amazon Prime video called On Call. This show just dropped yesterday.

It is awesome. It's about a pair of patrol cops who are responding to calls in Long Beach, California, but the main cop in the story has a really intense backstory and she gets into all kinds of situations while she's on duty. And then she's also processing and unraveling this interesting mystery in her past.

It's just very solid entertainment. The reason I found out about it is that half the season was directed by my dear friend, Brenna Malloy. Brenna is an insanely talented director. She directs a lot of cop shows, a lot of legal shows. She also produced On Call and really helped develop the whole look and feel of this show, which is so strong.

It's so good. Her TV episodes are always incredible. Brenna, by the way, also produced my short film last year. She taught me so much about filmmaking and pretty much everything I know about directing. I learned from her. She's a really good teacher. So if you like elevated cop stuff, if you want to go on a wild ride, if you're just looking for something fun to watch over the weekend, I would definitely go check out on Call.

You can find it streaming on Amazon Prime video, and we're gonna link to it in the show notes as well.

[01:12:51] Jordan Harbinger: So speaking of what actually deserves our time and attention, the previous letter was a perfect lead in to this, Gabe. Our final letter this week is a little different from our usual fair. A listener wrote me recently to share a story that frankly moved me and I wanted to share it with y'all as we kick off this new year and get clear on the people and places that truly matter.

Gabe, take it away.

[01:13:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan. I just listened to your new interview with Ryan Holiday, but that was episode 10 86, by the way, and thought it was excellent. I could respond to lots of parts of that talk, but I'll pick one. The question of spending time with your kids. On one hand, you're correct. Time with your kids is priceless and once lost, cannot be recovered.

On the other hand, sometimes you do have to tell them that yes, some things are more important than their immediate wants. Addressing that needs to be age appropriate, but kids do need to learn that they are not the center of the universe. However close to it they may be. A simple if dramatic example. I used to work a couple blocks from the World Trade Center about a five minute walk, but on September 11th, 2001, I was stuck in a cheesy Ramada Inn on the outskirts of Wilmington, Delaware, making sure that the 13 people who worked for me were alive and home safely.

I talked briefly to my 9-year-old son and 7-year-old daughter. But I had to move on to do something important and my wife had to handle the explanations after I hung up, which was especially tough because the attack made it extremely hard to even get a call to connect that day. More interestingly, we all make a few really big decisions in our lives, whether and whom to marry, whether to have kids, whether to start a podcast or as I'm doing to pursue a master's degree in retirement.

The biggest and best decision I made in my life was around 1995. We were sitting around the dinner table, the four of us talking about a potential family activity, maybe a hike or a visit to the beach. That's when my son eviscerated me without meaning to, in one short sentence, daddy, that will be great.

He said, we can do it when you visit us next weekend. My three-year-old had no idea that I lived with him and his mother and his sister. I left for work before he got out of bed and came home after he was asleep. He only saw me on Saturdays and Sundays, and he thought I was a visitor. I vowed then that I would change and I did.

I left for work even earlier. You can always get a seat on the 4:47 AM to Grand Central, and I came home in time for dinner with my kids. I made it to every swim meet and every concert, and I loved it. I wasn't perfect. I did have to miss a few dinners, but they were rare and it hurt. But why was this the best and maybe most important decision I made?

Because in 2010, we took our son to university and helped him move his stuff into his dorm room, get settled, meet his roommate, and do all the stuff you do as a freshman. 10 days later, our son was dead. Oh my God. He drank too much. Made a stupid decision. Another one after the one to drink too much and fell six floors to his death from his dorm window.

I was there the next morning for a meeting. He went to my alma mater where I was on a board and I had the distinct horror of having to identify my son's body for the police. My life was changed forever. I thought it was over, which was not true, but it was forever, not the same. Oh my God, you and Ryan Holiday I know, understand the value of time with family.

I think you also understand the challenge of balancing interests, so have kids early if you want them. Don't hold off till the trade-offs suck. Spending time with kids when you're 25 means not parting. Spending time with kids when you're 50 means big economic and career opportunity costs. Don't put yourself in that position, but if you do, put yourself in that position.

Take the time with the kids. You can't get it back, and you will miss it when it's gone. Thanks for indulging me and letting me ramble. Signed grateful. I realized what matters. Before my heart was shattered.

[01:16:57] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, you're very welcome, my friend. And you are not rambling. You are sharing something crucial and powerful and I thank you for it.

Look, this letter obviously speaks for itself. Very difficult to read, very difficult and heartbreaking to hear back even a second time here. What you went through with your son is unspeakably sad. This is a tragedy that I cannot even imagine having to go through, and I am so deeply sorry that you and your family had to say goodbye to your son.

It's just, it's terrible. Before I had kids, you'd hear something like this and you'd be like, oh, that's really terrible. It's so sad. Once you have kids, you just put yourself in that person's shoes and it's hard to hold it together. I think that this also helps answer the question of how much time do you spend in your career versus being with your child.

I often go through this conflict where I'm like, oh, if I didn't have kids, I could be doing this. I could write this book, or I could spend more time working and I could grow this, and then I could have more money than I could live in abroad in Spain, half the year, whatever it was. 'cause I'd have all this time and money, and I never regret spending the time with the kids by using my kids as an excuse not to advance in my career.

Yes, and it's the best excuse that you have and it's perfect and you should always take that trait. I think a lot of us dads. We need a break sometime. Maybe I'll hide in my office 'cause like I have had enough the noises or whatever. I do it like I said, on a regular basis, but this story is reminding me that you just don't know the last time you're gonna be able to hug your kids.

I'm not trying to be dramatic, but it is true. On the other hand, we're all human and sometimes you need a break from lying on the floor, stepping on Legos. So it's a balance. Obviously, prioritize your kids or whatever is most meaningful and precious to you in your life, but do it consciously. Don't just coast on autopilot.

Don't check out without a reason. Be there as much as possible. I'm just gonna go ahead and guess that the best thing this guy has ever done is spend more time with his kids. Especially a lot of people say, well, when I'm retired, we'll spend lots of time together. Your kids are gonna be older and they're not gonna have time for you.

And in this man's case, they're not gonna be around no matter how much you love them and how much you do. And that's just something that you can't change. Man. This letter just really brings all this to life. So thank you. My friend for sharing your story. I needed to hear it this week. I'm sure everyone listening does as well.

Big hug to you and your family. All right, y'all go back and check out James Patterson. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. The circle of people I know, like and trust. We mentioned it earlier on the show, six minute networking.com. You can find it for free on the Thinkific platform.

The drills take a few minutes a day. Dig that well before you get thirsty, build those relationships before you need 'em. Six minute networking.com. Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. We're also on, what is it called, blue Sky. You can find us there. Tweeting or not tweeting, blue skying bluing. I don't know. Gabe's on Instagram, Gabriel Rahi, or on Twitter at Gabe Rahi. This show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty.

Ian Baird taught us at Laski, and of course, Gabriel Rahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer if this mug is to be believed. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Pain. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love.

And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. Imagine facing a rare, incurable disease and finding out that AI could repurpose an FDA approved drug as a potential cure.

That's the breakthrough achieved by Dr. David Feigenbaum and the mission of his company.

[01:20:35] JHS Clip: I'll never forget, the doctor walks in the room and says, David, your liver, your kidneys, your bone marrow, your heart and your lungs are all shutting down. That's it. Like, we've tried everything. There's, there's nothing more that we can do.

I was terrified. I was like, had my last rights read to me first, you know, no one thought that it was even possible that I could survive. You're dying from this horrible disease. Chemotherapy just gave you a little bit of a window, but it's probably gonna come back. So, you know, what's your game plan to prevent this thing from killing you?

Well, the only way to get back is to use the tools that you have. Within reach. I'm like, shit, I've got this horrible disease and the only way that like I might be able to save myself was if I can find a drug that's already at the CVS. And so my mission then became could I figure out what the hell's going wrong in my immune system?

So then maybe I could find a drug that already exists that could treat it. I'm not supposed to be here, like my drug wasn't made for me. It saved my life. It was always there. I am completely on fire about this idea that there are drugs at your nearby CBS, your nearby Walgreens that could help more diseases and more people.

But the incentives aren't aligned for us to do that. So we created every cure a couple years ago because we believe that every drug should be utilized for every disease it possibly can, regardless of, you know, whether it's profitable or not. 80% of our drugs that can help people today and tomorrow, no one's doing any research whatsoever to figure out more uses for them.

[01:22:04] Jordan Harbinger: Tune into episode 1005 of the Jordan Harbinger Show to explore how existing medications are bringing new hope to those confronting elusive illnesses.