Friend of the show and Entrepreneur on Fire John Lee Dumas (@johnleedumas) joins us to address a common concern of a lot of people have about leaving behind a miserable corporate job to pursue entrepreneurial ambitions.
If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at email@example.com. Now, let’s dive in!
On This Week’s Feedback Friday, We Discuss:
- You’re at a new job and they’ve already pegged you as the “quiet” one. But what do they really mean?
- How do you find a tribe of like-minded, growth-oriented people who don’t seem like they’re part of some motivational cult?
- After so many “we should hang outs” without follow-ups, should you just accept that a best friend isn’t in the cards for you at this point?
- With a full-time job, supportive girlfriend, and research papers taking up most of your time, how and where can you find opportunities to grow your skill set?
- You’re young, successful, and ready for a relationship — but you can’t seem to find anyone whose drive goes beyond Netflix and work. Where should you be looking?
- You’re good at chatting when given interesting subjects to talk about, but have no skills in coming up with those subjects. How do you create meaningful conversations from scratch?
- You’ve got a great job and a comfortable lifestyle, but you regret never finishing college or following your intended career path. Are you a fool to go back to school?
- Even though you know the entrepreneurial life is right for you, how do you politely convey to your well-meaning but kind of clueless friends that you’re not looking for another corporate job?
- Recommendation of the Week: Strong Ending — A Journey from Combat to Comedy
- Quick shoutouts to Vivek at Google and Michael Clobes!
- Have any questions, comments, or stories you’d like to share with us? Drop us a line at firstname.lastname@example.org!
- Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.
- Connect with Jason on Twitter at @jpdef and Instagram at @JPD, and check out his other show: Grumpy Old Geeks.
Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider leaving your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!
Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!
Resources from This Episode:
- TJHS 132: Andy Molinsky | How to Extend the Reach of Rapport Across Cultures
- TJHS 133: Tom Bilyeu | The Secret to Making Powerful Friends
- Harness the Power of the Ben Franklin Effect to Get Someone to Like You by Shana Lebowitz, Business Insider
- How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie
- Disrupted: My Misadventure in the Start-Up Bubble by Dan Lyons
- Strong Ending — A Journey from Combat to Comedy
Transcript for How to Create Meaningful Conversations from Scratch - Feedback Friday (Episode 134)
Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger and I'm here with producer, Jason DeFillippo. Here on the Jordan Harbinger Show, we love having conversations with our fascinating guests and this week we had Andy Molinsky talking about intercultural communication. This was really interesting. Some cultures are more direct than others, other cultures eye contact is less polite. Other cultures you have to make it or it's not polite. A lot of little nuances and there was a lot in that episode about intercultural cross cultural communication. We also aired a crossover episode where I was interviewed on another show by my friend, Tom Bilyeu. He runs Impact Theory. This was a popular episode of impact theory and a lot of people said that this showed a side of me that they hadn't heard before, so that episode was a crossover episode. I hope you enjoyed it and if you missed it, I would love if you'd go back and have a listen. I think that the crossover episode is really interesting. Of course, I'm biased, and Andy Molinsky was really fascinating. If you have any interest in speaking or communicating with other cultures.
[00:00:59] Of course, our primary mission is to pass along our guests experience as well as our experiences and insights along to you. In other words, the real purpose of the show is to have conversations directly with you and that's what we're going to do today here on Feedback Friday. You can reach us at email@example.com love if you keep the emails concise if possible, does increase the chance that we can get your question answered on the air. Jason, what's new this week?
Oh, I know what's new. No big deal, but we made it to Apple's Best of 2018 List. That's something that happened this week.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:01:30] Oh, yeah, that was a nice thing to wake up to. Definitely.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:35] 12 years, nothing from Apple. Not that we didn't appreciate the fact that they created the entire podcasting platform and the reason we have careers right now. What I mean is no recognition at all. So waking up one day to have a bunch of texts and emails and social media support for something I had no idea happened was pretty awesome. This was a complete surprise, which is like what made it even better somehow.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:02:00] It was an early Christmas present under our communal tree for sure.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:04] And so of course, you don't make that list because you sat around and tinkered in your garage by yourself. This is something that Jason, you and the team really created with everyone else working together, busting our butts this year. And of course, everyone who listens to the show played an integral part because we got on the list of most downloaded new shows. So that's you. So if you're downloading this and you're listening and you are a fan of this show, you helped us make it to Apple's Best of 2018 List. So pat yourself on the back because I just want to hug all of you right now, because that was the coolest feeling to see that everyone had our back during the toughest year of my career by far. And everyone who had our back downloaded the new show helped spread the word, helped us get on this list. So that is just really damn cool, and made me really happy.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:02:54] And we couldn't have done it without the support of our good friends over at PodcastOne.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:58] That's right. Good thinking Jason. Make sure that the boss man is happy. I like your style.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:03:03] We can’t leave him out.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:04] I like your style.
Jason DeFillippo: [00: We can’t leave him out.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:05] Jason, what's the first thing out of the mail bag?
Jason DeFillippo: [00:03:08] Hi Jordan, Jason, and team. I just got a new job a couple months ago and it's going great, but two days in a row I got the well-meaning comment, “You're so quiet just sitting at your desk,” with an expectant smile. It's not the first time and not the first job this has happened at, I've been the quiet one forever. The thing is, I've been actively working on it for years now. I'm still pretty introverted, so I'll sometimes still play the good listener when it's been a long day and we head out for a night with friends. But overall, I'm a lot more talkative than I was. And in here at this job, I've made every effort to encourage non-work-related conversations around the common spaces of the office and in the short downtimes during our many meetings. But when I'm at my desk, yeah, I'm quiet in working. Plus, just for more context, I smile quite a bit. I'd say people would find me friendly and confident. The very extroverted CFO even said I had great energy and was a breath of fresh air when I interviewed for the job. What am I missing? Am I supposed to be roaming around and making small talk at people's office doors? That sounds like I'm wasting paid work time in a bit intrusive, but maybe I'm wrong. It's also rare as far as I can tell for people to catch lunch together, so I'm not an outlier there either and still I'm called quiet. How's this happening again? I realize you probably don't have enough data to help me directly, but any discussion around fitting into a new office or experience with a quiet coworker might be helpful. Thank you to all of you who worked so hard on this show. I look forward to hearing from you. Best, Chatty Kathy's Quiet Cousin.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:31] So you may be relatively quiet, but this probably isn't what they're talking about. I think your coworkers are looking for reassurance that you want to socialize with them. This is probably some evolutionary psychology going on. Social bonds are really key at work. You have to be safe for other people to be around, you have to be trustworthy. And when people don't talk to you enough or they don't know you well enough, you kind of fall into this, should we be around this person talking about the crappy assignment that we got? Should we be complaining and venting around this person? Are they on our team or are they on the other side? So always examine why people might be saying what they're saying, and if the initial rationale that pops into your head that seems really surface doesn't make any sense, then dig a little deeper. I use this a lot and back when I was dating as well, and I of course, I do it in my marriage, I do it with people all the time.
[00:05:20] So for example, somebody might say, “Oh, it's getting late now.” Do they mean they're tired? Do they mean that it's actually getting late? Do they mean that they want to change the subject and the conversation? Do they mean that -- I mean there's a million other reasons. In fact, when it was dating, it was really complex of course, because you have people sort of, I don't know, I feel like dating is almost like a doing magic tricks sometimes. There's all this misdirection going on and people are trying to get you to look left when they're doing something on the right and so you really have to read between the lines. Often people are not aware of what they mean precisely when they say something like, “Oh, well you're quiet.” It's really important to examine their motivations because this isn't some conscious process to get you to do or say something. It's completely subconscious, I would imagine, and completely unconscious so you've really have to look at why they might be doing this.
[00:06:08] In this particular situation, I would make an extra effort to talk to those specific people after work or during work if you can find an excuse to discuss something work-related that then touches slightly on the personal. And I know you also said it's rare for people to catch lunch together, but maybe you can organize something in a group or in small groups and you could literally email people or you could even better actually talk to them and get groups of three to four people to go to lunch or to go to coffee a couple of days next week and you can tell them that since you're new, you'd like to make an effort to get to know everyone a bit better. So this seems like a good way to do it. You can just call it out. That way they're not like “What's going on here?” And you might be surprised at how quickly people stop calling you quiet once you take the lead here socially and they get to know you a little better and then they feel a little bit more safe and open around you. Best of luck on the new job. All right, next up.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:07:00] Dear Jordan, Jason, and Jen. I'm a single female about to be 40, and I don't have many friends. I'm an industrial designer by day and work on my side projects at night to create a better life for myself. I have a small group that I've been friends with for a long time, but if distanced myself from them since they're not interested in the things I am, growth mindset, entrepreneurship and just doing better for myself and not being complacent. I recently joined this Facebook group and we get up at 5 a.m every morning, sounds like somebody else I know, Mr. Jocko, to work on our side hustles before work. I first thought, “Wow! This is it.” I found my people, but now I'm realizing it's not for me. The sisterhood is great and all, but I'm just not down for the expensive quote unquote events in masterminds and fake motivational crap. I am for the most part a straight shooter and it get to the point kind of person. I don't complain much and I'm half introvert and half extrovert, but I'm wondering if it's me, that's the problem and I need to open up to people and join him on the sisterhood which feels so unnatural or have I just not found a group of likeminded people I mesh with well? I'm also looking to create a network of people as I hear you talk about that all the time, not just friends. I used to work in the restaurant industry as a manager, so reaching out to former coworkers makes me uncomfortable and when I'm looking to network they want to talk about my appearance, et cetera. Thank you and I look forward to your response, Hustler In Search Of A Tribe.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:18] This is a tough one because you're right, you're in the camp that wants to do a side hustle and find comradery, but of course that entire space is ripe with these BS vloggers who obsessively blog or write or do videos about how real they are, while being like the fakest people on the Internet, and those groups, the answer to every single question or every problem you have in your business is hustle more and any shortcoming is plastered over with platitudes. Like “You are enough and you're special because you're the best you in the world.” None of that is going to get you closer to your very real goal of a better life and a more fulfilling career. So take a minute to recognize you're doing some things right. You're getting up early to go to work instead of making a time excuse for your side business, you're trying to find a group of likeminded people who want to move forward in a very real way.
[00:09:07] That's great. These groups exist I'm sure, but they are very few and far between with most groups actually consumed with the fluff that you mentioned before, all the fake motivational stuff. And the good news is you don't really need a group to get this done. Yes, it's nice to have people to share things with and bounce ideas off of, but in the end, you don't need to pay for this, and you can often find it at coworking spaces in your city. Coworking spaces aren't free of course, but they usually have a more developed entrepreneur and startup community because people have to invest in the space itself in order to use it. It's like a membership to a gym. So you'll find people there who are funded, who are working regularly on something. You can also use something like Focusmate. This is a website that Nir Eyal, a former show guests told us about.
[00:09:51] What this is, is it's like if you remember Chatroulette, Jason, remember that it's like you just have a random chat on it. So Focusmate is a work partner. I don't know if it's random or how random it is, but you can get matched up randomly with somebody else who's writing a book or doing some kind of work, and you can select preferences for, do you want a chat here and there or do you want to not chat at all? You can kind of deal with that and so you don't have people just chatting with you and procrastinating. It keeps you accountable. And what's funny is a lot of people I've actually met on this site, not a significant other, but they'll meet somebody that they really click with and work with. One guy wrote in and said he had been working with someone in France and they were on the same time schedule, so they work together regularly and then one day he was like, “So how'd you find out about this website anyway?” And she goes, “Oh, the Jordan Harbinger Show.”
[00:10:38] So this person in another country was working with another person in another country, had no idea how either of them got into this and it turns out it was this show. So that was kind of funny to hear about. But this has been really useful for a lot of people who need accountability and want to work with somebody else, but don't need to be in some sort of Google Hangout with 87 other people wasting time or talking about how they're going to do something.
[00:11:02] I would also continue to reach out to people using the tactics in our Six-Minute Networking Course, which is at jordanharbinger.com/course. You can select who you want around you by the types of conversations that you're having. Also, it's important to note that not all your friends have to have the same goals. I've got friends that are working in corporate jobs. They're loving it. Engineers, salesman, younger folks, older folks. Not everyone wants to hustle and is really into personal development and that's okay. I totally get what phase you're at, where you want to be surrounded by amazing hashtag growth people only, but after a while you can have some regular friends too.
[00:11:37] Also let yourself off the hook a bit in terms of having friends that all want the same thing. Sometimes it's okay to have friends who you just like to be around for meals or activity partners or even just people who watch Netflix and relax. I think as entrepreneurs, especially a lot of us get with only hanging around those who are equally obsessed and it can actually create a sense of FOMO, fear of missing out that really is not healthy for us, and then it'd be helpful for you to take a step back and realize that maybe you don't want that, maybe you want a simple life. I know that realization came to me after a long time as well, and it sounds like you're on the right track with this. Take what you need from these groups until you find one or more that you really like and don't be in a big rush to get there. You can do this yourself. We built this business and show ourselves back in the day when these groups didn't even exist because digital entrepreneurship wasn't trendy back then and you can do the same. You really don't need to have a tribe by forcing yourself into one, you can find your tribe and it can be a small one at that as long as it helps you further towards your goals.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:12:41] This is Feedback Friday, and we'll be right back after this.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:45] This episode is sponsored in part by Sport Clips. I liked this place. I wasn't -- I didn't want to, I didn't want to, I didn't plan to but I still, I demanded to go check it out and I really did like it. Great stylist. They have bunch of TVs, you can watch the game. They've got tall treatment and the shoulder rub and all that stuff. They've got over 1800 locations nationwide and they actually track your haircut so that you can go to any one of them and the barber knows you need. Also you can check in online sportclips.com/checkin. That's sportsclips.com/checkin then you show up. No wait.
[00:13:16] This episode is sponsored in part by The Great Courses Plus being able to construct a strong persuasive argument can help all of us, which is why I highly recommend checking out The Great Courses Plus New Course Argumentation, the study of effective reasoning. This is loaded with great tools that can help you create opportunities for compromise, deliberation, mutual understanding, both in work and personal situations. And with The Great Courses Plus, you can stream this and any of their thousands of lectures across virtually any topic, business, history, science, watch or listen on The Great Courses Plus App, and as one of my listeners, you can enjoy argumentation and any of their lectures for free. You can start your free trial today by going to our special URL, thegreatcoursesplus.com/jordan. That's thegreatcoursesplus.com/jordan. And Jason, you took a photography course on here as well, didn't you?
Jason DeFillippo: [00:14:06] Yeah, I did a while ago, but I'm really looking forward to this Argumentation Course because you know I have to deal with you every week and sometimes I could use -- I could use a few more arrows in my quiver.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:15] That's right. Thegreatcoursesplus.com/jordan.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:14:18] Thanks for listening and supporting the show. To learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit jordanharbinger.com/deals, and if you'd be so kind, please drop us a nice rating and review in iTunes or your podcast player of choice and if you're an overcast, please hit the little star button next to our show and that helps us out. We really appreciate it and if you want some tips on how to do that, just head on over to jordanharbinger.com/subscribe. Now let's hear some more of your questions here on Feedback Friday.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:49] All right, next up.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:14:51] Hi. I have a bunch of surface level friends, but despite making this the focus of my personal growth this year, I still don't have any real close friendships. I'm sensing a theme. Throughout high school, I primarily had male friends. I'm a 25 year old female by the way. But I had my oldest child at 19 and got married at 20 and those friendships have petered out naturally. I'm a very driven person and graduated with my bachelor's degree at 20, and master's degree a couple of years later. During this time I had several part time and full time jobs and internships and I had my second child.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:21] Wow. She's really a go getter. If we ever think we don't have time or energy to do something, we need to listen to this gal. She had a kid, got married, got two advanced degrees, worked multiple jobs, and then had another kid. I feel like that would kill me. I'm pretty sure it would.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:15:33] Yeah, you and me, both.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:34] Yeah.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:15:36] Needless to say, this was all very intense. Yeah, definitely. And I didn't really focus on building or maintaining friendships during that time of my life. Now I'm a stay at home mom and finding motherhood lonely and isolating. Any acquaintances from my career or educational background or out-of-state. I've tried to make mommy friends, but I'm struggling to take it beyond this surface level of friendship. A major issue I'm having is people saying, “Oh, we should hang out and then never following up.” I tried to be more specific, “Oh, what about next Friday?” But even if these people confirm plans, something comes up last minute or it always falls through. I wouldn't take this personally as a sign they didn't like me, but then the same people will reach out again via text a few weeks later, “I miss you. We should hang out, et cetera,” and the cycle begins again. It's where this sounds like she lives in LA.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:20] Yeah.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:16:20] It's like here.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:22] I would say that, that sounds very familiar. It is really common. This isn't anything personal. I think what it is, is these people just aren't as together as you are. You're using your own measuring stick with other people here. You’re someone who's had all these jobs, you had these kids, you did university, you had to be incredibly organized, you had to be incredibly diligent, you had to muster energy levels. These people are busy in their own mind and aren't able to get it together. They might even be quote unquote, actually busy, but look, this is about them and not about you.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:16:50] I've talked to other people on the Internet and even to my sister and they've all had similar experiences, so I'm wondering if it's an issue with my generation. I don't have the same problem with my friends that I use the term loosely here who are in their 30s or 40s, but I struggle to relate to that age group because of the age gap. They're more of a mentor role than a best friend role. Not to mention many people in that age bracket are friends with my mom. We were both young moms and I live in a small town, or they remember my teenage years, and let's just say those weren't very pretty years. I feel like I've always been a bit of an outcast, too old to fit in with the teen moms, too young to fit in with the regular moms, and then every time I think I found a friend, the whole we should hang out things starts. Should I just accept that a best friend is not in the cards for me at this point? Signed, Friendless in Mommy Land.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:36] All right, well as above, this is about other people's issues and you are in a weird spot with your age and your unique circumstances. You may just be looking in the wrong places. Maybe you don't need a friend who's also a mom. Sure, it could help potentially, but maybe you need friends your own age or slightly older who you can hang out with and relax. It sounds like you might be looking for that one person who's basically a mirror image of yourself or fills the role of best friend that you had as a child and you may -- since you are doing so many other amazing things during this time, you may have kind of missed the changeover. Whereas Jason, do you feel like your adult friends are just, I mean it's a different type of friendship than you had when you were kids, right?
Jason DeFillippo: [00:18:18] Oh, absolutely. Completely different.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:20] So I think a lot of us, if we go through this, because what happened with Friendless in Mommy Land is while she was going through that whole high school to college, college to professional life friendship shift and everybody's sort of adapted or failed to adapt like many people do. She was too busy, really, really legitimately too busy, and so maybe she doesn't see what the role of best friend might look like at this point and is craving for some sort of intimacy instead of the different types of relationships that fill it. But this is very, very common. We'd like to think of having one to two friends who are like the ones we had as a kid, a fit for everything, and in every situation you do everything together. I encourage you to make other relationships with activity partners in the mommy groups, et cetera. And I'd find something one or two nights a week where you can go take a class either with your kids or alone, and learn a new skill and you'll meet like-minded people, and even if you don't meet anyone, you'll have learned a new skill, so it won't be a waste of your time. And if you take one or two classes each quarter, you'll start meeting and cultivating a healthier social circle, which you can then leverage to find a regular social circle of friends. And this may be a numbers game at first where you're meeting a lot of people, many who are just not a fit for anything more than casual acquaintance, and that's fine. You've spent your whole life working really hard. So it might be that you see this friendship process as another obstacle to be conquered like a job or a degree, like “Dang, I can't check this get best friend checkbox off my to do list.” I see you as that type of person potentially. But this is a process that needs to play itself out naturally while you guide it and sort of gently nudge it along.
[00:19:58] So stop looking at getting super close friends as a task that you need to check off and get done, and start exploring what you want and the type of people that you want in your life through these common interests, and I think that will be a more reliable process to get the result that you want, which is close relationships with other people. All right, next up.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:20:19] Hello Jordan, Jason, and Jen. I'm currently wrapping up my bachelor's degree, and I'm set to graduate next September. I've been in school on and off over the past decade, so I'm glad to finally see the finish line in sight. This is my scenario. While my bachelor's program doesn't require an internship, I still want to gain some experience in what I want to work in which is social media and PR. With a full time work schedule, a supportive girlfriend and research papers taking up most of my time after work. I'm concerned about how and where I can opportunities to grow my skillset. I've looked into certifications that could pad my resume, but what it gives me more of an advantage if I had some experience to go along with them. Time is valuable to me and I want to make sure that I use my time to the fullest extent when it comes to working towards this career change. Thanks for all you do. Congrats on the new show and happy holidays. Signed, Certifiably Confused.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:08] Experience is always better than certifications. Certs are great if you're already working in the field because it shows employers that you know what you're doing because you've got the training to do it. That said, if you've got zero experience, that's a huge red flag regardless of all the certificates you've got saying that you know how to use certain software, et cetera. Jason, did you ever get into that software world where you need like Java Script Certifications or whatever?
Jason DeFillippo: [00:21:33] I'll tell you what, I've seen this so many times. I have zero certifications but I was a senior programmer and when people would come in with no experience straight out of school and they showed me their list of certifications, I'm like, “You should have spent more time just doing the thing that you're supposed to be doing and not just like learning how to answer questions on a test, because that's what most certifications are, at least in the software world. I'm sure it's probably the same in social media as well. So yeah, I say certifications. Yeah, once you have a job and if you need it to get a raise, and that's part of like the company culture, it depends on how many search you need on the wall or if you're in cybersecurity where those things really do make a difference. So certain systems, but experience is going to be the best thing that you can do to get a job once you're done with your school.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:21] That makes sense. Yeah, I know most college programs don't require internships or at least a lot don’t. But bare in mind, one reason that college degrees might not require internships is because they can't really charge you as a student for working someplace else. And they would likely have to assign you credit for doing it even though you'd have to pay them for a credit taken for the class. So I'm sure some universities are different, but when you look at the economic incentives that they have, most of them are of course trying to make and generate revenue and they're not necessarily trying to help you get a job during school or if they are, there's a lot of career services offices that are great, but they're probably overwhelmed and under resourced as well. So forget what's
required and do what's going to look best for future employers when you apply for a job after school.
[00:23:07] So in other words, just because they don't require an internship doesn't mean like, “Oh, I guess I don't need one of those.” Look for what employers are going to want when you apply for that job. Even working remotely is better than nothing at all, and I made this mistake when I got out of undergrad at the University of Michigan. I could barely get a job at best buy selling freaking CDs after getting a four year degree from the University of Michigan. And this was in 2004, the economy was actually pretty decent back then, and I couldn't, I mean I was looking at retail. I had no idea how to even apply for jobs back then and let alone was I even remotely qualified to do anything complex at all. So make sure you get the experience. The certifications can come later if you even need them, but certainly experience over paper.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:23:56] We'll be right back with more Feedback Friday right after this.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:23:59] This episode is also sponsored by Gusto. If you have a business or you know someone who does, you probably know that small business owners wear a lot of hats and some of those hats are really great, but some like filing taxes and running payroll are not so great, and that's where Gusto comes in. Gusto makes payroll, taxes, and HR actually easy for small businesses. Fast, simple payroll processing, benefits, and expert HR support all in one place. Gusto automatically pays and files your federal state and local taxes so you don't have to worry about it. Plus they make it easy to add on health benefits and even 401Ks for your team. Those old school clunky payroll providers just were not built for the way modern small businesses work, but Gusto is. So let them handle one of your many hats. You have better things to do. Listeners get three months free when they run their first payroll. So try a demo and see for yourself at gusto.com/jordan. That's G-U-S-T-O.com/jordan to get three months free when you run your first payroll.
[00:24:53] This episode is sponsored in part by Mrs. Fields. Here's another sort of seasonal sponsor that I was like, “Well, cookies. Okay, that's an interesting sponsor.” But I thought it was funny because I started a conversation about what's the worst or weirdest holiday gift you've ever gotten? And anytime you see a bad gift, don't you wish you'd just gotten something delicious to eat instead? Don't you wish you just got cookies instead? Or if you don't know who to shop for, this is kind of an easy one. So for over 40 years, Mrs. Fields, you've seen it at the mall, they've made some delicious treats. They've got those chocolate chip cookies, they've got those giant ones that you can buy, and they've got these gift tins and baskets. They're baked daily. They arrive fresh anywhere in the US. Plus, you can add your personal touch with a custom message, company logo, you can put a family photo in there which is kind of cool, and Mrs. Fields offers a 100 percent customer satisfaction guarantee, which is pretty sweet. See what I did there? This year send a fresh bake gift no one can resist right now. Get 20 percent off your order when you go to mrsfield.com and enter the promo code JORDAN. That's 20 percent off any gift at mrsfields.com use the promo code JORDAN.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:25:56] Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers is what keeps us on the air and to learn more and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit jordanharbinger.com/deals. Now back to the show for the conclusion of Feedback Friday.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:13] All right, next up.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:26:14] Good evening, Jordan, Jason, and Jen. I've been a huge fan of all your work since 2013, even have all of my close friends listening to your show regularly. I know this isn't necessarily your bag anymore, but any advice would be helpful. To make a long story short, I finally feel happy with my life. Nice apartment, amazing job, I'm 28 and making six figures, great friends, and a working network thanks to your Six-Minute Networking Course, but I can't seem to find a woman that meets my drive and personality. I just moved to Troy, Michigan about a year ago working in automotive as a sales engineer. I was born and raised in Michigan as well. I've been getting out there and being the best version of me, taking classes, online dating, et cetera. I just can't break out of this funk with romance. I've been on plenty of dates, but I typically get turned off pretty quickly when they have no interest but Netflix and work. I'm very active in the gym, rock climbing, boxing, et cetera, so the thought of just constantly doing the same thing makes me go insane. I'm typically the one that breaks things off because I'm just not into it after the first few dates. I do have some deep seated issues with my appearance from childhood, red hair and freckles and typical bullying stuff. Many women say I'm cute, but I rarely can turn it into something worthwhile. I had a long-term relationship in college that I screwed up and paid the price for. I've dated since, but typically can't get past the three month mark. The best advice I get from those closest around me is that it happens when you're not looking. I've tried all the typical advice. What's the next step? Best regards, Love On The Back Burner.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:38] So first of all, Troy, Michigan is my hometown, so that's pretty cool. So random. I bet we live within miles of each other. You live within miles of my parents. Yes, this often does happen when you're not expecting it, but for people like you and I and most listeners of this show, it certainly doesn't happen when you're not looking. Again, the difference between not expecting it and not looking for a totally different. You need to be looking because you're not on the market for a run of the mill, Netflix and nail salon type of gal over in Michigan and in Troy, that's a lot of what you're going to find. Fortunately there are a lot of great educated men and women there as well that will absolutely be right up your alley and they're probably all wondering the same thing. What you may need to do is step up the social activities, and I know it can be a pain, but if you're already taking classes and mixing with other people online, you might have to join some specific groups at the rock climbing gym, et cetera. And it sounds like you've got a lot going for you and are especially active. I know there's some group vacations where people go rock climbing and they do adventure sports or other activities. Have you thought about getting some of your platonic friends together and maybe doing something like that? Bringing friends will ensure you have a great time even if everyone else isn't interesting to you and they can help you meet people within the group, especially if you go with a mixed group of men and women.
[00:28:56] The other thing I'll address is your appearance and any sort of insecurity around that. Normally, I wouldn't touch this, but it seems like it must be having an effect on your dating because you included it here. Normally this type of stuff resolves itself as we get older or we bury it. But if this is really a hang-up for you, I'd suggest seeing a therapist just about this specific subject and I think getting over even these little hang-ups could be a game changer for you. Sometimes when we have little hang-ups like this, we realized they're not as little as we thought. And hammering down those loose nails is actually a great way to open up some new possibilities. So thanks for representing 17 mile and Coolidge Avenue, man. I appreciate that. And go ahead and get some of those insecurities handled and then yeah, step up. Lean into surrounding yourself, the high performers and you're going to find social circles there even though you might not meet the girl of your dreams there. The social circles you find yourself in are going to be what's conducive to eventually finding someone that you want to partner up with. So best of luck and keep in touch. Next up.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:29:56] Hi Jordan. Love you guys the show. I'm a young professional about to leave my company for other challenges and opportunities. Leaving my boss and colleagues is the hardest part of it all. I have lunch with the team every day and our conversations are typically safe for work, lighthearted subjects. I'm good at chatting when given an interesting subjects to talk about, but have no skills and coming up with those subjects. I'd like to take my last few days to learn what I can from my colleagues and boss and get to know them in a meaningful way before I leave. How do I make meaningful conversations? Thanks so much for your help. Sincerely, Trying To Go Deep.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:28] Well, this is a great goal. I like where your head's at, and since you all go to lunch together, try to get together with some people for one on one conversations over coffee, et cetera, before you leave the office. You can also do this after you leave, but it'll be logistically easier while you're still in the office and people are more likely to accept, and you can sort of tell them the reason is because you're wanting to ask some specific things before moving on to the next gig and you don't have to press anything super personal. I would use the Ben Franklin effect and essentially what this is, is asking other people for advice because when we ask people for advice it generates an affinity for us in their mind because the theory is that since they're helping you, they must like you and that sort of rationalization process happens in their head.
[00:31:12] Maybe it sounds a little manipulative. I wouldn't worry about it. It's from Dale Carnegie How to Win Friends and Influence People, so I feel like it's fair play. You can also ask for career advice going into your new gig. You might end up with some great feedback and you might end up with some tips or tricks or just the option to stay in touch, and ask to keep in touch. You can say is phone or email best and sometimes they'll give you both and you can get both. Even if you don't end up texting your old boss or something like that, and ask for a personal as well as a work email because if people leave then you don't have to track them down on LinkedIn or try to find their personal email through someone else because you never know if you leave and then somebody else leaves, you don't want to have a bunch of dead emails from your office workers that now you have to find out where everyone is. And then I would say hit them up every other month or every quarter and keep those relationships fresh enough. We have systems for that in Six-Minute Networking course, which is free, jordanharbinger.com/course. I'll show you how to keep and maintain those connections, use those systems. It really will help you in the future even if you don't see immediate ROI from keeping in touch with people from your old office and congrats on the new gig. This is going to be great. I'm so excited for people who have new jobs. I always feel like that's so exciting. All right, Jason next.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:32:26] Dear Jordan and team. Loved the show and never miss an episode. I'm a 26 year old male and I've been working in the super yacht industry for almost five years now. I make about $65,000 a year after tax and have a high disposable since my work pays for rent, utilities, food, et cetera. The point being that I have a pretty comfy lifestyle. I'm a big fan of self-improvement and as such, I eat healthily, exercise, meditate, and most importantly, I've started studying part-time before and after work in order to complete my economics and finance degree which I wasn't able to finish after high school for financial reasons. Although I enjoy my current job, the work is not very stimulating and it's not what I want to see myself doing for the next 10 or 20 years. Last year, I made a plan to finish my degree by 2021 whilst still working full time and then changed careers into either the finance and banking industry or economic research, which is what I've always been interested in.
[00:33:18] I really value education and the opportunities that it provides, but the problem is that in my current job, I don't actually get enough time to study, and therefore, I'm going to have to choose to either study full time and finish my degree or keep working in a job that I don't necessarily want until I save enough money to set myself up in the future. As of now, I've saved up enough money for about 24 months’ worth of living expenses and I'm strongly leaning towards leaving my job and living off my savings until I finished my studies by the age of 29, and start my new career. Is this a stupid idea and am I being ungrateful for a good job that provides me with an awesome life? At 29 would I be too old to start a new career, especially in finance? I must add that I've always identified as an intelligent person and I feel that my current lack of education does sometimes make me feel like a failure. I would really appreciate your advice. Sincerely, Am I A Fool To Go Back To School?
Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:09] Well, this is great. It's funny, there are actually a few people that work in super yachts that listened to the show. I mean talk about an industry where you think, “Oh, I probably don't know anyone who works there.” I know multiple people that work in super yachts and yatch sort of services and they all listened to this. I guess you guys want to have a lot of downtime to listen while you're rich clients have temper tantrums on their $20 million boats, and if you're thinking you're missing something now in your job, your career at age 26. Oh man, at age 30, you're going to be so restless, you'll drive yourself nuts. So no, going back to learn about what you really want to do, not a bad idea. Can you get a job during school to make sure this is what you really want? It might help to do this and you may have more connections than you think since you're working in the luxury industry in general. And finance can be tricky, so make sure it's really what you want to do. And even if it isn't, you already know you don't want to be working in super yachts forever. So school, especially if you're studying something that you have an interest in now is a good place to go. Even if all it does is get you a degree and you're interested in this area and it gets you some resume backing and some opportunities. Just pay attention to your evolving interests when it comes to school. I think a lot of people, they choose a degree and then they want to stick with that path and then they want to stick with that industry even though all the signs point to this isn't for me. So just pay attention to that voice and don't think you've lost time and that you have to stick with it because 29 is definitely not too late to start a career in finance.
[00:35:39] When I started on Wall Street, I was 27, and I had a law degree as did many bankers or other clients. So 29 is not too late to start anything, either 39 by the way, and I get it starting over is scary, but you're not really starting over. You've got a whole career behind you which makes you much more competitive for jobs and academic programs, you actually have a huge advantage and trust me, you might not feel it now, but when you go to college and you see all these kids doing keg stands instead of studying in the library, you'll realize you're in a different league entirely and you can work that to your benefit.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:36:11] All right, we're flipping the script again and here is Jordan as me asking John Lee Dumas a question here for Feedback Friday.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:20] Dear Jordan and now John, a bit of background. I've worked for a multinational company for 16 years now and I've owned a small business for 12 of those years. Wow. You can imagine this leaves a little room for any kind of non-work life and is becoming exhausting because I'm always working on one or the other. I'm also at the limit of what I can do with the small business while working for corporate America, due to a recent corporate restructure, I found myself with the opportunity to take a voluntary severance package and move on to other things. I see this as a chance to go all in on the small business. I've reworked the business plan, have set smart goals. I know you're familiar with that John, that give me an appropriate timeframe to determine if this endeavor will work. If I hit set goals in the right timeframe, I continue with the small business. If I don't achieve the goals, then I go back to corporate America and close the small business for good.
[00:37:06] My question. Most of my colleagues do not understand why someone would choose to leave corporate financial security to run a small business. These are serious corporate career types and leaving must equal a midlife crisis. It's also not clear to some if the severance is voluntary on my part or if the company chose to terminate my employment whenever the conversation pops up. I'm very vague but positive about what I will be doing next and I feel like I've managed these conversations really well. Lately, several of my colleagues have found job listings that they feel are a good fit for me after so many years in the same company, I am respected and I have a deep network. I'm truly humbled that people are reaching out to me. However, I find it difficult to respond appropriately. I feel like a thank you should be followed by either something indicating that I will check into it or a brief explanation as to why I am not checking into it. However, I'm not sure that the small business angle won't be alienating. Am I overthinking this? Is saying thank you enough? Thanks in advance for your thoughts. Signed, She's Having A Midlife Crisis.
[00:38:03] This is funny, John, because she seems to have the opposite of a midlife crisis. She's like, “Finally, I've got this great opportunity.” It's really a unique problem because you see that she's got a small business for a dozen years, which is that's a pretty good sample size for a small business, right? Like it's working. It's happening. And 16 years of corporate experience. So the question isn't, is this going to work? The question isn't, should I leave? The question is how do I handle this with my colleagues? And I think this is a funny one because you and I have both come from bureaucratic structures. You came from the military, I came from corporate America, and I'm guessing most people in the structure where you were in the military didn't understand that you were going to start something on your own.
John Lee Dumas: [00:38:46] They couldn't figure it out. For you going into the military, you know, you start in that chain of command, you always are looking up for that next set of orders. So people looking to me for orders, I'm looking to my captain for orders, a captain is looking to the major’s order, and it's all this chain of command. So I can kind of definitely understand because I did spend a couple years in corporate finance myself after the military where you have this mentality of like, “Okay, now I'm kind of in this golden parachute. I'm working in corporate finance. This is where it's all going to happen.
This is where everybody makes all the money, right?” That's why I found like her comments so fascinating where she said, “Why would someone choose to leave corporate financial security to run a small business?” These are serious corporate career types and leaving must be equal to a midlife crisis.
[00:39:27] The reality is, the reason why you would leave a corporate financial world is because you're miserable there and everybody there is miserable and the only thing that you're doing by leaving, this causing this little kind of dust cloud up is that you're holding a mirror in front of their face and they're saying, “Wow, wait. If Jordan's not happy, if Sarah's not really happy, and they're leaving, then why would they do that?” “Oh yeah, I'm not happy too. I just have to ignore that because I am golden handcuffed here. I am stuck here doing that.” Because listen, I spent two years in corporate finance. I could not find a single person like who was thrilled where they were. They were just stuck there for various reasons.
[00:40:02] Now of course you have that 1 percent that, yeah, maybe there are cut out for that. But listen, if you have this volunteer severance package, you can leave, you can go do something you actually want to do. Are you going to regret that? Absolutely not. No matter what happens, you're not going to regret taking that leap when you're 89 years old and your deathbed. You are going to regret staying in a corporate job that's sucking the life out of you with miserable coworkers, period. End of story.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:25] You know I find it -- there's going to be some people that say, “Wait a minute, that doesn't mean everybody is miserable.” Maybe there's some people that just can't imagine it, so I definitely agree with you. There's a lot of people in corporate America that are unhappy and are kind of in denial and I don't doubt for a second that some of midlife crisis, his coworkers are in that boat. They want her to stay or stay in the culture because it seems like you're right, you're holding up a mirror or a highlighter like you could leave too, and so it seems like she knows that that could be a trigger point saying, “Hey, I'm running a small business and I'm going to give it a go.” I think a little bit of this though is legitimately some of her corporate career type colleagues would never ever, ever leave because it's absolutely crazy and they think that she's lying about leaving. They think she's getting fired because a voluntary severance package sounds a little too good to be true. And so there's probably a little bit of both here. What I think is funny though is there's -- why not tell everybody you're doing a small business and you're going to give it a go? It seems a little bit egocentric and I don't mean that she's got an ego issue or problem, but what I do think is this is stops a lot of entrepreneurs either before their business starts or when it's time to go to the next level and it's “What if I fail? What will everyone think?” Does that make sense, John?
John Lee Dumas: [00:41:43] To me, that's the biggest thing that holds people back is what will people think. I mean, we live in this tribal culture as much as we want to get away from it and just like not have this as like this rain cloud hanging over us. It's innate, we're never going to get away from it. And you know, back 70,000 years ago when the tribe has spoken and they judged you ill then guess what? You are cast out from the tribe and you weren't going to make it. So we always will have that inner mind of what are people going to think? Are people going to consider me a failure? Am I not going to be considered worthy or relevant or fill in the blank? And guess what? You're never going to get away from that because you're a human being. But as people like Jordan and myself and other successful entrepreneurs that have been like, I understand I'm having these feelings but I'm going to go forward anyways because I know that's what's on the other side of those feelings is much more important than staying on this safe, comfortable side of these feelings and just staying in this job where everybody can say, oh yeah, Jordan works in corporate finance. He must be really rich and he must be really successful into. Oh yeah, Jordan like sits at home. Sometimes he has boxers on and maybe he doesn't sometimes. And he just speaks into a microphone like that's what you and your mind are thinking when you're taking this leap that people are going to be saying about you. And it's tough because again, it's so human.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:03] I completely agree and I think the problem here is really worrying about what these colleagues think. I know that they care about you or at least some of them do. You have to just tell them, I'm going to give my small business a go, and who knows in 18 months maybe I'll come calling for that job offer again. You can make that a little bit of a joke and they might say, “What are you crazy?” And you can say “Maybe it is a midlife crisis, but I'm just going to give it a shot.” And just sort of play it off. I don't think you have to lie to people. I definitely don't think you should tell them you're taking them up on these job listings when you're not, because they could make an intro and then you don't follow up and it makes them look bad. The truth is actually going to work well for you here. And who knows? I don't know what your small businesses, but people can refer you customers and clients only if they know what you're doing. So hiding that from the people you've worked with for 16 years, it's probably not a great idea.
John Lee Dumas: [00:43:55] Yeah. And here's maybe the last point that I'll personally make about this because I really do want to make it clear because I did spend two years in corporate finance, so not 10 years, not 15 years, I spent two. So a very small sample size for sure. And guess what? I met some great people. Guess what? I met some horrible people and everything in between. So I don't want this to just kind of have some people just take away from this some of my sediments where I going to share that most people in corporate finance like are miserable and stuff like that. There's plenty of people that are for sure, but quick questions, Jordan, have you ever read the book? It's very recent, Disrupted by Dan Lyons?
Jordan Harbinger: [00:44:29] I don't think so. No.
John Lee Dumas: [00:44:31] Okay. Hysterical. So this guy used to work at Newsweek, he's like a 50 something old school, old media guy. So kind of more relevant to our last question for that. But he got fired from Newsweek because of course it's a magazine, they're laying everybody off, and what did he do? He went and he worked for HubSpot out of Boston. So this new up and coming, cool hip young company, and he talks -- the whole book is about his journey through that. So let me just tell you from reading that book and now his next book on the topic as well as super interesting and you just came out with the second one. People are miserable too, they're miserable at HubSpot. There are mean horrible people there at this up and coming Internet company and there are mean horrible people in corporate America. That's why I love the opportunity that when I went out and I launched my business and on my own entrepreneur, now I can pick and choose like I can choose to hang out with Jordan. Like last time we were at a conference together, we went out, had a great dinner together, had some wonderful conversation, but I didn't have to do that because he's like my colleague or my boss, like we chose to do that. And that to me is what she is having as an opportunity. She's having a midlife crisis woman here is she has the opportunity to step out of that, start running her own life. And guess what? If those people that are really dear to you and you remained dear with them, that are in your corporate finance life right now are, are really actual friends you can choose to maintain that friendship. Just because you don't work together and the same cubicle doesn't mean you can't remain friends. So some really interesting things to think about when you're having that midlife crisis.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:45:57] Jason, what's the recommendation of the week? You picked out something from Audible? I actually have this, I just haven't listened to it yet.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:46:02] Yeah, it's a short piece. It's a little documentary called Strong Ending: A Journey from Combat to Comedy. It's the story of these people who've come back from war. They're traumatized and to deal with that trauma, they get into comedy and doing stand up and they go to comedy boot camps and learn the ins and outs of comedy, and it helps them talk about their problems and get through them. It's just a really cool story. It's very short. It's only like an hour and 15 minutes and it's got a lot of people in it. Mary Louise Parker is in it. She's basically the host of the show and comedians, Rob Riggle and Maria Bamford are in it as well. And it's just a really cool story and people talking about what happened to them, how this is helping them cope, and how they're helping other people now that they can help themselves.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:47] I mean I'm down for anything that helps veterans and certainly for comedy and Rob Riggle actually I run into him here and there because he's on our network on PodcastOne. He's a super nice guy. He is super friendly and really nice, and he was nice -- I actually saw him at a couple of restaurants and I'd smile at him and he'd be like, “Hey bud.” Before he knew that I was on the same network because once I saw him, I think even the same week in PodcastOne. He was like, “Oh hey, don't I know you from somewhere?” And I was like, “Yeah, you were just randomly nice to me at a restaurant in Hollywood.” So I'm a fan of that guy. He, he's well-liked by everyone that I know who knows him. And so that always been -- that's really unusual I think for people who are in the limelight. So it seems like he has done a pretty interesting from a military career into a very successful comedy career. So yeah, I'll check that out. Like I said, I own this, but I haven't listened to it yet.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:47:37] Yeah. If you have an Audible account, they'd been doing these Audible Originals where you get two free a month and this was in November. So if you don't have an account or just want to go buy it and listen to it, it's five bucks on Audible. Quick download, quick listen, well worth it. I really enjoyed it.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:50] Hope you all enjoyed this. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week and don't forget you can write in as well firstname.lastname@example.org. We'll answer your questions here on the air and I'm happy to keep you anonymous. That's what we do for everyone. A link to the show notes for this episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Quick shout out to Michael Clobes, Clobes, who got married recently. Congrats man. You're going to love it. And Vivek, he works over at Google. He knows my friend Amanda from StitchFix. Small world, man. Look, I'm proud. I'm happy that you listen to the show whenever I hear from you guys, I just love it.
[00:48:22] And if you want to know how I managed to book all these great guests and manage my relationships using systems and tiny habits, some of which I talked about here on the show today, check out our Six-Minute Networking Course, which is free over at jordanharbinger.com/course, and you can't make up for lost time when it comes to relationships. Don't postpone this. Dig the well before you're thirsty. You can find all this stuff, I wish I knew 15 years ago. I'm giving it away. Really, I want you to do it. It will change your life, jordanharbinger.com/course. I'm also on Instagram and Twitter @jordanharbinger, and it's a great way to engage with me and the show, and Jason, where can they find you?
Jason DeFillippo: [00:48:57] Find me over at my personal website at jpd.me, and you can also check out my other tech podcast, Grumpy Old Geeks at gog.show or your podcast player of choice.
Jordan Harbinger: [00:49:06] This show was co-produced with Jen Harbinger and show notes for this episode are by Robert Fogarty. Keep sending in those questions to email@example.com and share the show with those you love and even those you don't. We've got a lot more in the pipeline. Very excited to bring it to you. And in the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.
Jason DeFillippo: [00:49:28] Hey everyone, the holidays are just around the corner. So why not take the time this holiday season to catch up on your favorite Carolla Network Shows? Listen to some funny celebrity interviews on the Adam Carolla Show. Get some much needed advice on the Adam and Drew Show with Dr. Drew Pinsky and so much more. Catch up to all the things Carolla on PodcastOne or wherever you get your favorite podcasts.
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