1019: Grandfather to Blame in Niece’s Pregnancy Shame | Feedback Friday

1019: Grandfather to Blame in Niece's Pregnancy Shame | Feedback Friday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback. Friday producer, a guy, one of our listeners recently called The Late Night Gas Station. Still open on the 2:00 AM Road Trip of Life. Gabriel Mizrahi.

[00:00:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hands down, my new favorite nickname. Shout out to the Beardsley one on Reddit for that one.

That is a great one.

[00:00:21] Jordan Harbinger: We see you Beardsley. I'm just glad I'm not the only one Who compares you to inanimate objects. No. You've started a movement here, my friend. Mm-Hmm. Truly, to be fair, hanging out with you on the show is really like finding a bathroom when you desperately need it in the middle of the night.

[00:00:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Just a

[00:00:35] Jordan Harbinger: wave of relief. Is that it? Yeah. Basically. Even if the light bulb is kind of flickering and there's MSA in there somewhere,

[00:00:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: it was a nice thing. And you had to make it weird. Why? You know how I do? Yeah, I do

[00:00:47] Jordan Harbinger: not. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from tech luminaries to music moguls astronauts to investigative journalists. This week we had Phil Ellwood, author of All the Worst Humans, how I Made News for Dictators, tycoons, and Politicians.

This guy was actually really interesting. So his job, Gabriel, was basically. Like if you're Gaddafi's son who tortures people as some kind of sport and you wanna go to Las Vegas and have a fixer, he would do that kind of thing. Or Qatar would hire him and be like, we need a bunch of fake news so that the US doesn't support a World Cup bid from the United States.

And so Qatar can outbid them and he'll just lobby people and like create, it's not like a publicist, it's like a political operative that just pollutes the information landscape and screws with people. Wild. What a job. I know his client list was just like every horrible person that you could find. It was horrible families, horrible dictators in their offspring.

Mass murderers, despots. And that's his whole client list was just those gross people.

[00:02:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's like the movie, thank you for smoking, but for despotic regimes,

[00:02:07] Jordan Harbinger: you know, it's funny. That's what I compared it to. And he's like, yeah, that guy wrote the forward to my book or whatever. There you go. And I'm like, yeah, that makes total sense.

So, and of course it did take a toll on his mental health. It's a whole thing. That's what we talked about. We also had a skeptical Sunday on the end of the world, which is kind of apt for that, that that theme there. On Fridays though, we take listener letters, offer advice, replay some of my weirdest memories, for whatever reason, play the occasional obnoxious soundbite.

And in the great tradition of our amazing Reddit community over at r slash Jordan Harbinger, we compare Gabe to essential, albeit merely functional retail fuel establishments.

[00:02:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-Hmm. We do, we do do that. Stealing that from my hinge profile, by the way. Thank you for that. Yeah,

[00:02:46] Jordan Harbinger: that's your, like, something you should know about me.

Section handled. I do they have that on Hinge or been off the market for like a, you know, a long time. Yeah.

[00:02:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Actually I, I think I might use it for a different, uh, what do they call it? Prompts like together we could treat me like a 2:00 AM gas station Yik. I think I'm gonna get the wrong kind of crowd, but

[00:03:04] Jordan Harbinger: I would love to see who you match with.

With that kind of response. Yeah, just a bunch of, it's gonna be people who, yeah. Long haul truckers and dominatrixes. I imagine those are the people that you can talk about on the show. Those are the PG 13 people. Exactly. Yeah. So very much your demographic. A hundred percent. Isn't it dominatrices?

Shouldn't it be matrices?

[00:03:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know what's funny? As I said that, I almost said dominatrixes at the last moment, but then I was like, eh, maybe don't be a little grammar Nazi today.

[00:03:30] Jordan Harbinger: You're already alienating half our audience with your weirdly correct usage of who and whom, which I know I've asked you about a lot, and I still.

Only get it like 50% of the time.

[00:03:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, dominatrixes versus dominatrixes is very much the conundrum or conundrum of the BD SM world.

[00:03:47] Jordan Harbinger: So of

[00:03:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: the fetish.

[00:03:48] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. If you're listening right now while choking on a ball gag, please let us know which plural of the word that you would use. Maybe drop it in the subreddit since you probably can't talk right now.

Let's get a conversation started over there.

[00:04:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Let's talk about something important for once. That's right.

[00:04:03] Jordan Harbinger: Funny thing, Gabe, now that I'm on full on dad mode, Mm-Hmm. I find myself in situations I never thought I would. Not 2:00 AM gas station ball gag situations. I was gonna

[00:04:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: say like with dominatrices

[00:04:13] Jordan Harbinger: or quite the opposite.

Just really mundane ones that I never knew existed. So for example. There's a whole thing where guys go to Walmart, target, whatever, to go buy stuff for the house or the kids, right? Mm-Hmm. And then they sit in their car. There's somebody doing this right now as they're listening to this, they get guys will sit in their car after shopping or while you're waiting for the curbside pickup where they come and put it in your trunk.

Mm-Hmm. And they're just like listening to music. They're listening to this podcast. Sometimes they're smoking or they're just farting around on their phone or whatever. And sometimes I park next to these guys 'cause you have to park in certain spaces for the pickup anyway. And we often make eye contact and there's this like, si, there's silent nod, uhhuh.

'cause you just can't help. But notice we're all loading up with diapers and baby formula paper towels, and all this really boring stuff. And I begun to realize we are just all milking the extra 10 minutes as a break from young kids because we have an excuse to not be home

[00:05:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: for like 15 minutes. That's your vacation right there.

[00:05:05] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And it's pretty funny, my, my trainer actually brought this up to me at first because it happened to him. I started paying more attention to it, and I absolutely see the same thing happening in the target parking lot near my house. I didn't even realize I was doing it. I was just like, you know, yes, the stuff's in the trunk.

Maybe I'll just, I'm just gonna listen to a few more minutes of this Sam Harris or whatever, and then like maybe put on a track and just bump it, pun on some guns and roses. Put it loud on the way home. There's just a whole league of exhausted parents I that I never knew existed before, and now I'm part of it.

It's like we are legion.

[00:05:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is hilarious and way more boring than I thought it was gonna be. So thank you for that story. Mm-Hmm. The only dominatrix in your story is a big box retailer and like the existential weight of procreation, I guess.

[00:05:43] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Just sitting in a rouse parking lot with the ball gag of extreme responsibility shoved into my mouth.

Oh, what an,

[00:05:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: oh, I'm dying. Sorry dude, that's, that's quite an image. Thank you. You just really paid that story off with that. Oh man. With that metaphor. Mm-Hmm.

[00:06:06] Jordan Harbinger: One last thing, and then this plane train will kick off. I gotta air out. I'm turning bright red. Let's pull it together. Will you? All right. We, we got some fun ones.

We got some wild ones. What's the first thing outta the mailbag? Gabe.

[00:06:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: All right. I'm gonna have to pull it together because, sorry. Just a heads up. Super weird transition from our moment. We just had, this first question is a tough story. It involves sexual assault, it involves some rough details. I just wanna let you know in case you're.

I don't know. Taking a road trip with your kids or sitting kids in the car? Yeah. Sitting in the target. Yeah. You're in the target parking lot. And your kids just climbed in, I don't know, playing this on your Bluetooth speaker at work or whatever. Yeah. This is a, uh, headphones letter. Headphones are, listen, when you're alone letter.

Yeah. Right. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My teenage niece was raped by her maternal grandfather and became pregnant as a result.

[00:06:49] Jordan Harbinger: Oh gosh. Hold up. I'm, I'm sorry. We just gotta stop right there. Let's take a moment. So your teenage niece was raped by her grandfather and now she's pregnant with her grandfather's baby.

That's really just horrible. Yeah. This is a nightmare. I don't even know what to say. Being assaulted that alone is a tragic experience, life altering. To be assaulted by a family member. I mean, my God, but to be raped and then find out you're carrying a rapist child and the rapist your grand. It's just this.

This is everything. Horrible. This

[00:07:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: poor girl. I can't even imagine what she is going through.

[00:07:21] Jordan Harbinger: My heart just breaks for her. I am so sorry this happened. God, man.

[00:07:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Her grandfather was charged with her rape and has pled guilty.

[00:07:30] Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah. Good. Put this man under the prison. Seriously. What an absolute. POS.

[00:07:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: My niece has graduated high school, but has not been willing to keep a job even before the assault.

She's sweet, kind, and very immature.

[00:07:44] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-Hmm. Okay.

[00:07:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: She's about to enter her third trimester and wants to keep the baby.

[00:07:49] Jordan Harbinger: Well, that answered my next question.

[00:07:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: We all love her and her child, but I'm worried about the impact of the reality of the conception on the baby. I would be too.

[00:07:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no kidding. I mean, this kid is being born with a really dark backstory, Gabe.

I always wonder how people break this kind of news to children. That's gotta just be one of the hardest conversations to have.

[00:08:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, true. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people don't and just keep it a se. We've heard that on the show actually. Like these crazy backstory, family dark secrets coming out and then a child is like, whoa, this is my story.

It's brutal.

[00:08:20] Jordan Harbinger: Right. But then. This human being deserves to know their story and it's obviously they're, they're obviously gonna ask at some point. Sure. Also, if you're the product of incest, there are very real health risks that you need to know about. Of course. So not telling this child, it could be really bad.

I mean, they're gonna find out at some point in their life.

[00:08:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, she goes on. I also don't think her OB GYN, has discussed the genetic impact of a child of incest with her.

[00:08:43] Jordan Harbinger: Right? I mean, that seems negligent to me. So her doctor knows the story. Don't they have a responsibility to tell her what to expect? I don't know.

Maybe that's not their place. On the other hand, if she's really immature, she might just be like, uh, okay. And you know, does not compute.

[00:08:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: My niece is far too immature to raise a psychologically healthy child, not to mention a child with lifelong health problems. She lives with my brother-in-Law Sister-in-Law and Mother-in-Law and her three dogs.

The home is chaotic. I am

[00:09:10] Jordan Harbinger: very worried about this very,

[00:09:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: I would gladly help my niece with day-to-day needs, but I live 1500 miles away.

[00:09:17] Jordan Harbinger: Right? Also, you know, not your job. Not your job,

[00:09:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: truly, but it is super sweet that you're willing to help. So she goes on. We'll be visiting my husband's family in a couple of weeks, and we'll stay for a month.

Should we suggest adoption and talk about it while we're there? Or should I just keep my mouth shut? Signed a concerned aunt, hoping this outcome won't haunt my niece who might or might not know what she actually wants.

[00:09:41] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, what a tragedy. This is on so many levels. I mean, what do you say about a story like this?

It's just awful. Again, I'm so sorry for your niece. I'm sorry for this child. I'm sorry that her family is chaotic. I'm sorry that you have to watch this play out across the country and not be able to do very much about it. I, I gotta say, Gabe, to start with the obvious point here. The fact that she's decided to have this baby is just, is,

[00:10:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: uh,

[00:10:07] Jordan Harbinger: it's

[00:10:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: a, it's a choice, isn't it?

[00:10:09] Jordan Harbinger: It certainly is. Although, based on what our friend here is saying, it's unclear how much this young woman is truly thought through this choice, right? She's young, she's a little immature. It almost sounds like the immature is, I mean, look, every teenager's immature, but she can't hold a job. That's not a great sign.

May maybe she doesn't really grasp the reality of what she's committed to. Or maybe she does and she's in denial about it. I mean, that's part of growing up too.

[00:10:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Who knows? She might be so traumatized by this experience that she's really not thinking clearly at all.

[00:10:39] Jordan Harbinger: She might also be so scared and ashamed and God knows what else that she's just, you know, putting one foot in front of the other, pretending she didn't Mm-Hmm.

Get pregnant in this awful way, kind of numb and dissociated from her own life. And, you know, dot, dot, dot. She's eight months pregnant with her rapist baby, and she's just praying. She'll figure it out or someone will come along and save her. I mean, that's, that's also sort of youthful folly.

[00:11:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's hard to say.

If she truly actively said, I know exactly what this means. I know what I want to do. I am choosing to be this child's mother, and I want this child to come into the world.

[00:11:09] Jordan Harbinger: I can tell you right now, as a parent who had kids in their late thirties, you never really do that kind of thing and know what you're getting into at any age.

So there's no way a teenager is grasping this. So the thing we have to acknowledge is why she didn't terminate this pregnancy. And I know I'm gonna get emails from people telling me why that's evil or unnecessary, and that's fine. Everyone's entitled to their feelings about this, even if you don't think that's the case.

But why this 17, 18, 19-year-old rape victim should have to carry her rapist's baby? Why a child who was conceived from rape, from incest should be brought into this world? I just, I can't wrap my head around it. I know I'm a godless heathen. I mean, if this isn't a case for terminating a pregnancy, I don't know what is.

However you feel about abortion. And again, I respect people that have different views on this. You gotta admit that this is just heartbreaking and traumatizing to everybody involved. So I do not understand why your niece or her parents, or other adults in her life didn't at least talk to her about this option.

But I'm gonna go ahead and guess that she and her family don't believe in abortion, or they're in denial about what all of this means too. And they just didn't realize how important it was to at least consider it. I don't know, man. I'm just flabbergasted and I know that my values and biases are coming out here.

I'm fully acknowledging that I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. I am just saying carrying this baby to term is gonna create some very significant problems. Most importantly, for this baby who, because of how it was conceived, might not ever be able to have children of its own or will have children of its own and create even more problems for those children to say nothing of the emotional impact of being born.

Into this tragic situation.

[00:12:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Ugh, this is so heartbreaking. Also, that's gonna be one weird baby shower. That's all I can say.

[00:12:52] Jordan Harbinger: God, that's so sad. But yeah, what, what do you even bring to that baby shower?

[00:12:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: A better help gift card with 18 years of sessions on it. I mean,

[00:13:00] Jordan Harbinger: yeah, seriously. A 23 and me vouchers, or the baby can find out which of its chromosomes are tripled up.

God, man,

[00:13:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: we just earned ourselves another 20 angry emails with that. Thank you. Yeah,

[00:13:10] Jordan Harbinger: we did not make that better. We did not make that better. So I, I'm sorry, we're having a laugh here. I'm just trying to keep things light in a really awful situation. But if you do get her a better help gift card, please use our sponsor code.

That's better help.com/jordan. That really helps us out. Somebody's got a benefit from this tragedy and it might as well be me.

[00:13:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: You're shameless dude. Shameless capitalist.

[00:13:30] Jordan Harbinger: No, I kid. I'm actually just having trouble dealing with how horrible this is. So I'm joking around like an immature I know, man. Child.

Totally get it. Same here, bro. Look, whether she truly wants this baby or not, whether this baby should come into this world or not, man, it's coming. It's already here. By the time this comes out, probably if she's eight months probably. So her two options at this point are. Raise this baby herself or give it up for adoption.

Obviously that's ultimately up to her. But since she's quite young, naive, and mature, I do think she needs a lot of support in thinking this through. But you're gonna have to be very careful here. Support is what she needs, not somebody going, this is what you gotta do. Now I'm getting the sense you feel adoption is the right move.

I totally get why I'd probably be leaning toward that option too if I were your niece in her shoes at her age.

[00:14:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Although it really depends on what kind of support she has around her. Yeah. If her mother and her aunts and her uncles are saying, we will step up. We will help you raise this child. This is our responsibility together.

That's a very different situation.

[00:14:28] Jordan Harbinger: True. There are a bunch of people living in the house, and I can't tell if that's a good thing or a bad thing. She did say it's chaotic. Yeah. But a chaotic home with a lot of support might be better than a peaceful home where this teenager is raising a baby with potentially serious needs all on her own.

[00:14:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Our friend who is saying, I would gladly help with the day-to-day needs, but I don't live nearby, so I'm hoping the rest of the family is similarly generous, but I also find myself wanting to say, yes, it's very sweet that you want to help and God knows your niece needs it, but also this is not your baby and your niece is not your daughter.

So if helping is something you really want to do outta the goodness of your heart, amazing. Everyone in this situation could use it. But just keep an eye on whether you're taking on too much here or if your help ever comes at your expense.

[00:15:10] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. So here's my take. When you see your niece, I would hold off on pushing her to any one decision and just talk to her about how she's doing these days.

I'd make a lot of room for her to share what this whole experience has been like for her, how she's thinking about this pregnancy, about being a mother, whether she wants to be a mother to this child, whether she's ready, how she's thinking about her options. I would lead with a lot of open-ended questions, and I would do a lot of listening, not a lot of talking at first.

And if she comes right out and says, what would you do? Then I would still tread lightly. I would speak more in terms of her options and the consequences of those options, help her come to the best decision for herself. You can guide her gently to what you think is best, but I would be very thoughtful about not overstepping.

You gotta make room for her to feel that she's really arriving at a decision for herself, and if you feel that she isn't interested in your advice, I would respect that. And just back off a little bit. I would still let her know that she can always come to you if she wants to talk, and I would check in on her.

I know it would be very comforting and very powerful for her to know that her aunt is there, that she's a safe space for her now and for this whole journey that she's on. Gabe, I gotta say I, this letter's actually making me quite angry. Same

[00:16:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: here.

[00:16:23] Jordan Harbinger: This is really tough. I'm angry first, of course, at this horrible excuse for a grandfather.

I, I just don't have enough words to articulate how vile this guy is. None of them are appropriate for the show. I hope he ends up getting hit by a garbage truck before he even ends up in prison. Just rid the world of this monster. The horrible thing he's done, the awful position he's put his granddaughter in.

I'm also angry at this family for not helping this very vulnerable child, and she is a child in so many ways to really Mm-Hmm. They haven't helped her think this through. I mean, I know it's not their fault this happened, although who knows the circumstances, what they knew, didn't know. Sure. But once their daughter got pregnant, there should have been some very serious conversations about her options.

Yeah. And what is best for her and this poor child. But mostly I'm angry on behalf of the baby because it's about to be born into a, what is obviously a very tragic situation, a highly imperfect family, and potentially a very painful mind and body. Just in terms of health. I mean, I hate saying this, the word is horrible, but inbred babies, they can be premature.

They can have heart problems, they can have cystic fibrosis, they can have cleft palates, disabilities. The list goes on and on and on. And even if their genetic disorders are benign, they can pop up in future generations. So this is really serious. It's just awful.

[00:17:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's very serious. And this child has zero say in any of it.

And even if this family is amazing and really steps up to help raise this child, or this child finds great adoptive parents, this child might struggle in life no matter what. It's terrible.

[00:17:53] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. And that just fills me with a kind of sadness that's just like, what do you do with it? Right? Because it's too late.

This might be this baby's fate or whatever, and it's gonna deal with some really intense stuff in this life. And I don't know if it's fair, but that just makes me really freaking angry. And that said, you sound like an amazing aunt. I hope your niece can take in your love, your guidance and your help.

She's really lucky to have you looking out for her. We're sending you, your niece and this baby, a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know what you're gonna want to triple up on the deals, on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. Can you even have three chromosomes?

I don't think so.

[00:18:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-Hmm. Oh, well, I mean, you might, but I don't know. I.

[00:18:33] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help Ever Find Yourself Deep in the social media rabbit hole, gazing at everyone's picture, perfect lives. And you ask, how the hell did everybody else figure this out? It's a common trap. You gotta remember behind every perfect post, there's the real story.

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[00:19:28] Jen Harbinger: Stop comparing and start focusing with better help. Visit better help.com/jordan today to get 10% off your first month. That's better. HEL p.com/jordan.

[00:19:38] Jordan Harbinger: This episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show is brought to you by booking.com. Booking dot. Yeah. It's finally time for summer travel. We're looking forward to taking a couple months off to spend with the kids, and booking.com offers so many possibilities across the us. You have 18 summers with your kids.

They're probably not gonna wanna hang out with you for many of those anyway. So in a couple weeks, we're taking our two and four year olds on an adventure to San Diego, hitting up the zoo, channeling our inner childhood a little bit. I never got to do a lot of this stuff as a kid 'cause we had a cottage, which was the most boring place on earth.

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Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to feedback Friday.

[00:20:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm 22 and I live with my mom and dad. I grew up in an upper middle class household and pretty much everything went well for me. I was going to college with enough scholarships and funds saved up by my parents to essentially emerge debt free, and I was experimenting with myself and started being more open in general, especially with my gender.

I began being drawn to things like pastel colors, then makeup, and finally women's clothing. I realized I liked the compliments I was getting as both a man and a woman as I was quite stylish on both ends.

[00:21:23] Jordan Harbinger: Nice. You sound sound like Gabe at a job interview.

[00:21:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: We should share clothes, my friend, uh, who's writing in. I've got a couple. Definitely. Absolutely no doubt about it. Men's blouses you would probably love.

[00:21:38] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, exactly. It's so weird. They button up on the wrong set. I don't know why they made it this way.

[00:21:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Know where they did it. It must be a defect.

[00:21:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Oh God.

There's an idea. We should start a subscription service where people can borrow your clothes and return them whenever they want.

[00:21:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Like rent the runway. But for Gabe's pirate blouses and keto hats. Yeah. I'm open to it. Good revenue stream for the business in addition to

[00:21:57] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-Hmm. Multi-decade. Better help gift cards.

So the letter goes on.

[00:22:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Eventually came the time to tell my parents I'm non-binary and I use they them pronouns. Also, I changed my name. I

[00:22:08] Jordan Harbinger: don't envy you having this conversation, my friend. How do you even warm up

[00:22:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: to that? They were less than pleased. Mm. My dad strongly disagreed with my identity, accusing me of just following trends and trying to get attention.

That's horrible. My mother, on the other hand, tried being accepting at first, but changed her mind when I started being public about it. Saying that quote, I was going through a phase unquote and would quote change my mind. I ended up dropping out of college. Q2 years of dead naming misgendering and arguing about all of my issues, trans and otherwise.

Then I ended up meeting a guy I'll call Mike. Mike was supportive of me being non-binary. I found him so easy to talk to. Even when our opinions differed, we finished each other's sentences and sandwiches for that matter.

[00:22:54] Jordan Harbinger: Well, that sounds like love the, can I eat the rest of your hogie? Kinda love.

[00:22:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: This sounds like a sex in the city voiceover, doesn't it?

Oh yeah. Like Charlotte met a guy at a gallery opening before they knew it, they were finishing each other's sentences and sandwiches.

[00:23:07] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. As it cuts to Charlotte and a guy wearing a bow tie at a bougie sandwich shop on the Upper East side. Exactly. Such

[00:23:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: a good show, by the way. Huge part of my childhood.

I dunno if I ever told you this. My mom, my sister and I used to watch it together when it came out on Sunday nights, religiously. It was like a huge thing in our house.

[00:23:21] Jordan Harbinger: Mildly disturbing. Kind of inappropriate and somehow, totally on brand.

[00:23:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I, I mean, I don't disagree, but also my mom listens to the show.

So Can we strike that from the record, Jordan, please. That is such a Miranda thing to say. I will take that compliment. Actually, Miranda was the real hero of that series. Something you only appreciate as you get older, I feel so our friend here goes on, I fell head over heels in love. I loved him from the bottom of my heart.

But like all relationships, we weren't perfect. We still had our issues. My parents especially had issues with him. For one thing, my parents told me that Mike was too old for me. He's 32 and I'm 22. I know that's a big gap, but I've never related to someone more. Then I also tried to confide in my mom and dad about some of the issues we were facing, namely that I wanted an open relationship and he did not.

[00:24:08] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. I can just imagine these fairly conservative, upper middle class parents hearing their Gen Z child go. I use they them pronouns, and I'm in love with the guy who's 10 years older than me, but I'm also on Tinder and in two different poly QEs. Yep. And I'm not saying they're necessarily right, but I can definitely understand why they're going, what is going on here?

[00:24:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: They advised me to break it off immediately, and I did. Then I didn't. Then I did. Then I didn't again. Okay. Altogether, four breakups in the span of two weeks.

[00:24:38] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Such a carry. Am I right, Gabe?

[00:24:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. This is, this relationship is giving Mr. Big. For sure. So they go on. Mike refused to let go. He was head over heels as well and was afraid of the influence my parents had on me.

Fast forward to today, when I saw Mike at a convention that we both happened to be at, one thing led to another and we slept together. Now I'm confused and I'm desperate to get outta my parents' house. On one hand, Mike and I had such a special relationship that I wanna rekindle it and see if we can make it work.

Then my parents will be furious with me doing the same thing they always do, where they push me to make the decision that benefits them and makes them feel safe. On the other hand, if I choose my parents, I'm afraid of losing Mike forever. What would you do in a situation like this? Should I choose the man who couldn't let me go, or the parents who won't accept my decisions?

Signed. I got 99 problems, but my pronouns ain't one or two. But still I'm blue about having to choose between a good dude and my parents' attitude.

[00:25:41] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Chef's kiss to that sign off. But my god, Gabe, that sign off was longer than our friend. Here's relationship.

[00:25:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, TBD on that. Yeah, I suppose. Depends if they get back together, but uh, yeah, I don't know.

They might be about to choose that, that long lasting Love that Gabe going ham with the sign off Love.

[00:25:55] Jordan Harbinger: True. So, all right, let's jump right in. Let's get to the heart of the matter here. You're 22, you're a very young adult. You're individuating from your parents. I understand this is an important stage of development even if you get along perfectly with your parents, and part of that individuation process is developing your own values, your own needs, your own choices, and yes, oftentimes moving outta your parents' house and creating a life and identity that is your own.

Now, your identity is more complex than many other people's. You are non-binary, it sounds like, possibly trans. I don't really, you're dating an older man, you're in an open relationship, or you want one anyway, and you're allowed to want and pursue all of those things. Obviously, I hope that those choices feel healthy, authentic to you.

That they're contributing to your growth and your safety and your happiness. And I know you're not really writing in about all that, but that's an interesting layer to your story. You're an unconventional person, right? And I'm not using that as a euphemism. I'm literally, you're just not like everyone else.

And that's kind of really cool in some ways, but maybe less unconventional in your generation. But still you're building an identity that is unique and it probably brings up some questions and conflicts that other more conventional people, like my boring ass, are just never gonna have to wrestle with.

So my answer to your conundrum is actually, I'm gonna quibble with the choice that you're laying out. Do I pick this guy? I can't seem to quit, or do I pick my parents? I'm gonna quibble with that because I actually do not think that that's the choice you're facing, although I get why it feels that way. I think the better way to frame this is, do I continue carving out an identity of my own, or do I conform to the values and expectations of other people?

Whether those values and expectations belong to my parents or my partner or society in general. That's actually the better question in my view, because first of all, your parents have their values, their beliefs, which, you know, I can appreciate why they have them, and I can't say for sure that they're a hundred percent wrong in every way.

But there is this concerning thing where according to you, they push you to make decisions that benefit them, that make them feel safe. And frankly, that's a challenge in any parental relationship. And your relationship with Mike. It sounds sweet. It sounds like there's a lot of love there, but as you know, that's not perfect either.

You want one model for the relationship, he wants another, he's 10 years older, which like, I'm not one of those people who's like age gaps are automatically bad. He's a predator. You're vulnerable run, but that's a pretty significant gap. 22 to 32 is much different from say 32 to 42. So it does make me wonder about what you each might be looking for in this relationship.

How the power dynamics in your relationship work, whether dating an older man is fulfilling a certain need for you, like protection or guidance or for a certain kind of love. Again, not automatically bad, it's just important that you see that stuff. If that is indeed what's going on. Also, one of the things that bonded you and Mike was that he was supportive of you being non-binary.

He was super easy to talk to, which look, that's very sweet. There's nothing wrong with that, but that's also exactly what you weren't getting from your parents Couldn't help but notice from the letter. And that alone does not mean that like this guy is your person. He might've just been a very comforting and important person at a time when you really needed someone to accept you and listen to you and understand you,

[00:29:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: and even despite that, you've broken up and gone back together several times.

So, good point. I know that your parents played a very big role in that, but you obviously have some conflicts yourself around this relationship. I don't know if that reflects how you really feel about Mike or if it speaks to just how influential your parents are in your life. But it does seem to me that you're confused about whether this is actually the relationship you want to be in.

[00:29:25] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And then there's this detail about you dropping outta college that you just slipped in there. We have to talk about that. Yep. Look, we don't have enough information to know what to make of that. Was college just not for you? 'cause that's fair. But did you drop out 'cause you wanted to defy your parents?

Was all the conflict with your parents doing a number on your mental health? I mean, Gabe, there's a reason that they put that in there, right? If it was totally irrelevant, it wouldn't even occur to them to write that in the letter, in my opinion. So there's some connection there. Whether they're conscious of it or not is, is a different question Or, or maybe you just find that it's hard to stick with your goals in general.

And I, I'm curious about that, especially because going to college is kind of your first big experience as an adult and it's a place where a lot of people go, they meet new folks, they encounter new ideas, they separate from their families a little. So I'm curious to know why you would give that up. I don't, it seems like a really healthy thing for you to do right now.

So my simple answer to your question is no, I would not capitulate to your parents, especially if they have a tendency of coercing you into doing what they want. And a lot of parents do that. I understand that's a recipe for depression and rage and stunted growth, and you're already seeing that. But I'm also not sure I'd run back to Mike because I'm not convinced that he's the answer to all of your problems or even that he's the right partner for you right now either.

So what you need to do is understand yourself better and continue exploring different experiences and relationships. Going to college, making different kinds of friends, pursuing a career that you're excited about, dating, different kinds of people working on your relationship with your parents, or maybe continuing to separate from them going to therapy, which would be enormously helpful to you.

Right. Now, speaking of which, have we mentioned that Better? Help has gift cards, basically. Basically you need to continue exploring and growing up. So I get why it feels like it's your parents versus Mike, but that's not really what you're asking, right? What you're asking is, do I choose myself?

[00:31:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly.

Right. And look, if you decide that Mike really is your person and your parents are standing in the way of that, then I think I would probably say, yeah, pick Mike. But I would also say, don't pick Mike just because you don't have your parents' support in life. Mm-Hmm. Or, let me put it another way. Don't cut off your parents entirely just because Mike is pushing you to commit to him.

[00:31:35] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. The two are definitely related, but our friend here's job is to pick them apart a little bit more and just make sure they're showing up in these relationships in the best possible way that her relationships are the right ones. If I were you at this very meaningful point in your development, my top priorities would be going to therapy, really getting to know myself, setting some meaningful goals, whether it's finding your own place or finishing college or landing a job you're pumped about and making choices and building relationships that honor your truest self, and that takes a lot of hard work and a lot of courage.

That's the journey you're on. So if you focus on that, it won't ultimately matter whether your parents totally approve of your choices or whether a certain partner provides you a certain experience, the support and safety you're looking for. You deserve those things, but I think you'll get a lot further trying to provide them for yourself.

And by the way, I don't think it's the end of your relationship with your parents. I think you guys are probably navigating a very intense moment in your relationship. They're still wrapping their heads around your values and your choices, and I know it's very challenging for you, but I'd keep trying to meet them with love, curiosity, respect, and make it easy as possible for them to hopefully meet you in the same spirit.

So you guys can start to heal some of these rifts. Gabriel, you know, I know we're all our parents' kids here, but when your parents really dig their heels in, it's because they really care. You kind of only realize this once you start to have kids of your own, it's because they care so much that they can't necessarily handle it with like a totally clear eyed calm.

You're the most important thing that has ever happened to them, the most important thing in their world. So don't cut your parents off. The reason that they're being a huge pain in the ass is because they care so much about you and they don't have the answer for you right now. And that scares the shit out of 'em.

That's the real reason.

[00:33:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: I also think that at 22 years old, you often don't have the capacity or the vocabulary to sit down with your parents and say something like, I can see that what I'm doing these days is really upsetting to you. It must be scary. It must be weird. It must bring up certain feelings for you.

I'm willing to hear what those are. I want you to be okay with what I'm doing. Do you want to tell me what it's like? You know, to have that conversation as a 22-year-old with your parents is difficult. It might take our friend here another 10 years before they can meet their parents with that kind of curiosity, but it's worth giving it a shot because I'm with Jordan.

I don't think your relationship with them is necessarily over. Just because it's strained.

[00:33:51] Jordan Harbinger: Totally agree. Gabe, my friend, we wish you all the best. Good luck. Please keep in touch. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier.

If your manipulative mooching, sister-in-law is taken over your home, your special needs sibling is secretly hurting people in your family, or you just discovered that your partner of 15 years is probably a sociopath, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com.

We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. Oh, and by the way, if you haven't signed up yet, our newsletter wee bit wiser is a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you delivered right to your inbox once a week. So if you wanna keep up with the wisdom from our thousand plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out and you can sign up at Jordan harbinger.com/news.

Okay, what's next?

[00:34:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, back in the early nineties, my parents purchased a business that has been the primary source of income for my family for over 30 years now. My father ran the show while my mother did the bookkeeping and payroll. We were able to move out of our single wide rundown trailer in Florida to a decent block home on a lake, and my childhood was pretty good because of their success.

They also put a lot of money into real estate and found other ways to boost my and my brother's inheritance. But we both told our parents that we have no interest in the business as we do not wanna live in Florida and have other career goals. Then around five years ago, my mother was diagnosed with a severe case of Warnick Corak cough syndrome, a serious neurological disorder.

My father was left to run the entire business himself.

[00:35:24] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, I'm very sorry to hear that. That's gotta be really difficult for all of you. That is a tough break and that's an understatement. Of course,

[00:35:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: that's when he found out that my mother did not pay into social security for her or him the entire time.

Oh God. Which caused my mother to be denied her disability, which in turn caused my dad to sell all of their assets and my inheritance to cover her medical care.

[00:35:48] Jordan Harbinger: Uh, that is really unfortunate.

[00:35:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: My dad still runs the business alone, but recently told me that he had to put another name down for his business license.

He put my name down to keep his incorporation status and said, congrats on owning a business. I don't like it. I told him I do not want my name tied to anything of theirs as I was not gonna be liable for any tax issues and I'm not getting any money or benefits from his business.

[00:36:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, good for you. No kidding.

I do not blame you one bit, but this is called fraud, by the way.

[00:36:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: All was well until two weeks ago when I started getting calls from the Florida Department of Revenue

[00:36:26] Jen Harbinger: Control.

[00:36:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: When I asked my dad about it, he told me it was because he was four months behind on paying sales tax due to banking issues.

[00:36:33] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm, oh yeah. Banking issues. Okay, so there's a real pattern here. Don't you hate when your bank makes it impossible for you to pay taxes? What are you saying? Their API was broken.

I don't get it. The banking issue is that they didn't have enough money to pay the taxes because they did the accounting wrong or didn't do it at all or something. Come on, man. There's a real pattern here of not paying certain things like taxes, slapping bandaids on problems, finding workarounds that explode later in your face.

Owning a business is hard. I get it. But it sounds to me like your parents are digging themselves into a hole here, and what they're doing unfortunately is dragging you along for the ride.

[00:37:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Very mixed metaphor, Jordan. But yes, but obviously I agree.

[00:37:12] Jordan Harbinger: If you expect me to learn at age 44, how to keep my metaphors straight, I am afraid that train has served.

[00:37:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: You're such a dark. I told him I was not okay with the situation as I never agreed to be part of the business and I will not be caught up in his tax issues. And he just told me, welcome to being a business owner and blew me off. Wow. Not cool at all.

[00:37:34] Jordan Harbinger: Not just not cool at all. Not legal at all.

[00:37:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't wanna mess up my dad's only source of income, but I need to protect myself somehow.

Am I at risk of getting in trouble with the law over this business? I never agreed to when I never signed papers or anything agreeing to the liability. Do I need to get a lawyer in case this gets worse? Signed a coerced entrepreneur struggling to confer with my manipulative ur who's making me incur the risk of this nominal transfer.

[00:38:01] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, your mom's diagnosis, the medical expenses, the hit to your family's hard-earned wealth, the latest drama with the business. I mean, this is all really frustrating and I'm very sorry that you're going through it. Gabe, this is reminding me of the letter we took a few months back from the guy whose wife didn't pay taxes for their business for years, and then just didn't tell him.

[00:38:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah. And then she got an arrest warrant in the mail and he might be on the hook now. Brutal.

[00:38:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. These stories about a partner or a family member making poor decisions and not telling other people, man, they just grind my gears because no problem gets better when you hide it. Mm-Hmm. It's just not right.

And now they've exposed their child to some real risk. They've co-opted her into this hot mess and she didn't even do anything. It just sucks. We wanted to run all this by an expert. So we reached out to defense attorney and friend of the show, Corbin, Payne, and Corbin's. First thought was, he doesn't know what your exposure on the tax problem is because you didn't handle any of the sales or the money, and he would think that proving you don't owe any taxes is gonna be fairly straightforward.

It would probably also be pretty straightforward to prove that you had nothing to do with getting put on the license and that you don't own any part of the business. So that's the good news. But unfortunately, Corbin does feel that you're in a bit of a pickle here because if you report to the state that you truly aren't on the license or in the business, then your dad could get in trouble for several issues.

The most obvious one is potentially losing his license, but the other one is getting investigated for falsifying business records, which Corbin reminded us is what Hunter Biden was recently convicted of. Corbin's opinion is the longer this gets drawn out, the harder it's gonna be to avoid getting stuck with the business issues.

That could be tax liabilities, but it could also be business debt or business legal liabilities. Corbin didn't wanna paint too dire a picture for you, but your dad, he really does seem to be running a catastrophically loose ship. He's Shanghai you into his problems. And I agree with that. And I'm also slightly relieved that I'm not the only person who's used the term Shanghai here on the show because I, I still can't tell if that's low key offensive in this day and age, but man, it's a great word.

It

[00:40:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: is a great word, isn't it? It just sounds

[00:40:02] Jordan Harbinger: like what it is. That's why I like it. You can hear that word and you just kind of guess what it means, and, and it always involves trap doors and you're just, you're right. Mm-Hmm. Whenever I hear it, I just picture a bunch of sailors in the 1850s. Getting drunk and being abducted and marched up the gang plank.

Mm-Hmm. Of some creepy ship and forced to work for another captain.

[00:40:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, that's effectively what seems to be happening to our friend, minus the human trafficking element. Of course. Right. Well,

[00:40:24] Jordan Harbinger: definitely. My point is this is all very reckless, ridiculous.

[00:40:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: I get the sense that dad is very desperate and when somebody is desperate, they will often make extremely bad calls to keep things afloat.

[00:40:34] Jordan Harbinger: For sure. That never works. Never. It's always one of those. The coverup is worse than the crime situations. Right. But here's the good news. Corbin said that right now you could quickly act, let the state of Florida know that you have nothing to do with this. This would probably get you off the license and put anyone relevant on notice that you are not actually associated with the business.

But okay. I

[00:40:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: just have to say, you sound like the Miranda now. I just need to point that out. I do. Yeah. Well, a hundred percent.

[00:40:57] Jordan Harbinger: She is a lawyer, right? Isn't that the case? Yep. But to quote Corbin here, the longer you're attached to this shipwreck, the greater the odds of something going terribly wrong and sticking to you in the process.

So it's a numbers game. Eventually there you're keep if, if you're gonna keep rolling the dice for what another decade, something's gonna hit. Another thing Corbin said, if you knew about fraudulently getting put on the license and you'd let it go for a while, then a good lawyer, even mediocre lawyer, they could argue that you effectively consented to being included on the license.

And if a judge agrees with that argument, then you would be stuck. So Corbin really feels for you. He hates that this is happening. It's clear you don't wanna betray. And I say betray in air quotes here, betray your dad by reporting this. But like I said, it sounds like your dad has serious problems beyond needing another name to put on the license.

It's possible that he's slowly going out of business. To quote Corbin one more time. Using you on the license is essentially using newspaper to patch a hole in a ship. It's barely slowing things down. It's putting you at extreme risk. Man. See pain. He loves his sailing metaphors, doesn't he? I think that's the last one for today, but I can't be sure.

[00:42:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm a little worried for our friend here and I gotta say I'm pretty angry with her dad. I know he's in an incredibly tough spot. My heart breaks for this guy. His wife has a serious disease. She severely compromised all of them by not paying into social security and then covering it up, hiding it. He's trying to keep their business afloat.

I get it so I can understand why dad is doing whatever he can to survive. He is being truly reckless now, and more than that, he's being extremely callous to his daughter. She's saying, Hey, thank you for everything you've done, but running this business is not my path. And now that there are all of these problems, I want nothing to do with it.

And he's going, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool, cool, cool. But I had to put somebody's name down for the license. So congrats on owning a business. And when she pushes back, he's like, well, welcome to being a business owner, and then shuts down and refuses to talk about it. That putting aside the legal stuff is not okay.

Not okay at all. I think you need to have a really honest conversation with your dad about all of this. How he's recklessly mismanaging the business and his wealth, how he's essentially infected you with his financial problems against your will, how he's disregarding your very legitimate feelings, how he's not listening to you, he's not treating you with care, with respect.

That is the real issue here. It might take some very direct and vulnerable language to get his attention and to force him to acknowledge what he's done here, but I suspect that he already knows what he's done here When he blows you off, that's probably him avoiding the stress and the shame of having to acknowledge all of the terrible decisions he's made and all of the ways that he's compromised you.

[00:43:31] Jordan Harbinger: That's my sense too. I'm sure that it hurts him to know that he's done this to his own child, but like, dude, if you know that, then don't fricking do it. Right? Or if you realize later it was wrong, fix it.

[00:43:41] Jen Harbinger: Come

[00:43:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: on,

[00:43:41] Clip: man.

[00:43:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, Jordan, I find it so fascinating when a certain theme pops up in multiple areas of a listener's letter.

So this father is obviously avoiding a lot here, both in terms of the business and in terms of what his child wants out of life. Mom was avoiding a lot too by not coming clean about the social security thing in the first place, which is really what kicked off this whole crisis, which by the way, that's a big part of this story.

I know our friend here isn't writing in about this, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were all pretty angry at mom for what she did, but don't know how much they can really acknowledge that anger, let alone express it, given that she is fighting this really awful disease.

[00:44:18] Jordan Harbinger: Right? Because she's a victim, she's in pain and it sucks.

But the reality is she did a really bad thing.

[00:44:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: She really did. I mean, how do you express your justifiable anger at a parent who's suffering like this? It's a really difficult place to be, and that's another element that our friend here might be working out. Anyway, my point was actually everyone in this story is avoiding some big stuff, and now our friend here might be avoiding something too, by hesitating to notify the state about the license and talk to her dad about how he's treating her, which I gotta say I understand her avoidance the most here.

This was not her fault. This is complicated, and I know it's scary to prioritize yourself and stand up to a father who's also struggling. But I feel like we've been seeing this a lot lately with our letters, especially with avoidance, how it can appear again and again in different areas and different relationships.

But then it's often on our friends who write in to break that cycle and say, you know what? I'm not gonna handle things like that anymore. I have to lean into this. I have to confront it, and I have to try to show everybody in my family or in my friend group what it looks like to stop tiptoeing around a very big problem.

[00:45:21] Jordan Harbinger: And in this case, our friend has several reasons to do that. But I'd tackle the legal stuff first. Talk to a tax and or corporate lawyer, get a consult. This might be really easy to nip in the butt if you move fast. Corbin said that if it happens to escalate in Florida, treats you like a bad guy, then you can get a white collar defense attorney.

But I, I personally have a feeling it will not come to that. And I would give your dad a heads up that you're correcting the record so that he's not blindsided or compromised by this. And that's gonna be kind of a rough conversation. I think once the legal stuff is squared away, then I would really sit down and have the real conversation with your dad about what he's done, how it's made you feel, how it's affecting your relationship, all that.

And I really hope your dad can hear you and he starts making very different decisions and isn't just like you're killing your mother or whatever, huh? Poor guy, poor family. You guys are really going through it. I am so sorry for that. But there are ways of meeting problems that make them better and there are ways of meeting problems that make them worse.

And you might have to be the person who shows your dad how to make 'em better. Even if you want nothing to do with the business. 'cause this is your business. Good luck. You know, it's a great use of that. Rapidly dwindling, inheritance. Gabriel, the fine products and services that support this show, we'll be right back.

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[00:48:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 26-year-old husband and father, and I'm now working on becoming a police officer. I feel that there's a lack of good officers in this country, and I want to be a better protector for the kids.

I'm also learning Spanish so I can communicate effectively with people I might encounter on the job. I'm getting in the best shape of my life and I'm taking pre-law classes as well.

[00:49:03] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, amazing. You sound very driven, very thoughtful. Solid reasons to become a cop.

[00:49:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: The problem is, years ago in my late teens, I was addicted to porn.

Back then, I was on a site and one of the ads was very misleading and sent me to what I believe was a child pornography site. I did not watch any videos of children. I immediately turned it off. I was disgusted with myself for even clicking on the site in the first place, and also that this was happening all over the world.

That experience changed me. At first. It changed the porn that I like to watch, and ultimately it made me stop altogether. I now believe that porn is poison. It'll melt your mind. My wife knows my past and we are transparent in our relationship. But now I'm scared that I'll be flagged during the polygraph test when I become a police officer and blocked from what I know I'm being called to do, I'm also worried that I'm complicit and to blame for quote, funding the site because I was addicted to porn.

Would I get charged with a felony for being in possession of child porn? Would my dreams be crushed by being flagged in a system and will I never be able to become a police officer? Am I gonna ruin my life for trying to pursue my dreams? Signed an unstoppable cop who did nothing wrong, full stop, but is afraid of being blocked from this precious op

[00:50:23] Jordan Harbinger: man.

You're going ham on the signoffs today, by the way. Thank you for working in the term. Full stop there. I got you, dude. I've gotten an email a a couple times for people who like hate that term and I have no idea why. I know some people hate it. I don't know if they just don't like it or if they don't realize that full stop actually just means period.

That's what you say in British English. It means period. It also means bam. No qualifications, end of story. It's not slang. No. Yeah,

[00:50:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: it's like an actual term. Full stop is the pretentious way to say facts, basically. I

[00:50:49] Jordan Harbinger: think maybe that's what's bugging the guy. I don't know. It's like multiple emails, but maybe I should just start saying that, but I'm sure that I'd get angry emails about that too.

Can I do nothing? Right? Anyway, good question. I definitely understand why this is making you sweat. You have so much riding on being a cop, it sounds like you'd make an excellent one. It would be a big blow if this got in the way. And these interviews, they can be a little intense. So I get why this is keeping you up at night.

First off, glad you kicked a habit that wasn't serving you. I'm not a prude about this stuff, as you know, but porn consumption can get really outta hand. Poor choice of words there. Uh, sorry about that. It could affect you in some very profound ways. We did a whole skeptical Sunday about that recently, so I'm glad you feel healthier and clearer now.

That's great. But as it relates to your career, I really admire your discipline, your sense of justice. I'm sure they're part of the reason you want to go into law enforcement. So look, I'm a lawyer. I'm not your lawyer, but we did some homework on this. We also talked to a police officer friend of ours, and he shared some interesting stuff.

So here's the deal. The laws around child pornography, and by the way, I think we are all supposed to call it child sexual abuse material. Now, I prefer that term because it's, it is child sexual abuse material, and that's, that's all it is. These laws differ from state to state. They're probably all pretty similar here in California.

Penal code three 11 makes it a crime to send, transport, produce, or possess child pornography, develop, print, duplicate, or exchange it to hire, use, persuade or coerce minors to participate in making this stuff to knowingly advertise obscene content like this for sale or distribution, or to knowingly possess or control any child pornography.

Now I. Questions that often come up around these statutes of the meaning of the terms child pornography, obscene, and may be relevant to your situation. The term knowingly in lawyers, they dine out on the term knowingly. Okay? So I doubt you'd get charged with a felony for being in possession of child sexual abuse material because first of all, this incident already happened years ago.

Nobody showed up at your door with a warrant. I don't think you were ever on anyone's radar. Second, I'm not entirely sure that you broke the law if what you're saying is true, you didn't watch any videos, you immediately turned it off. I'm not sure that you actually violated the letter of the law. You didn't send transport, produce, create, possess, or control any of that stuff, and you definitely didn't do any of that knowingly, which is a key term that is very important.

Our cop friend had the same take. He said that generally you have to possess, transmit, or furnish this material to be guilty of a crime. If you haven't done any of those things, you're probably not guilty of a crime. His advice, check your state's law's governing child sexual abuse material, and if you feel comfortable googling this, you know, using Incognito window or you know, maybe someone else's computer search for firms that have websites that walk you through how to know if you've committed a crime.

So that's the good news, but it doesn't mean this won't come up in your polygraph. We did a little digging into this and some of the things interviewers commonly ask are your personal and professional history. Of course any criminal behavior on your part, shoplifting, theft, stuff like that. Certain financial information.

If you've ever used illegal drugs, including steroids, if you drink alcohol and most relevant to you right now, they apparently often ask about any illegal or deviant sexual behavior. So put those ball gags away. The reason they ask these ques, you can send 'em straight to me.

[00:53:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Jordan wants to wear one of those in aisle L 12 of Target by his house.

Yes,

[00:53:58] Jordan Harbinger: exactly. Exactly. So the reason they ask these questions is they wanna know if you've done a ton of cocaine, if you owe a huge amount of money to somebody that could compromise you, they could make you amenable to manipulation or poor decision making. But the other reason they ask is they wanna squeeze you.

They wanna see how you react. So they might ask you some uncomfortable stuff and it might not be very polite or delicate. Apparently police interviewers, they have asked candidates stuff like, have you ever had sexual thoughts involving a family member? And I'm sure they're deadpans staring at you when they ask you this question too straight in the face.

Have you ever had sexual relations with an animal? So I could see a world where they go, you ever look at child porn and if you lie. There's a good chance the polygraph is gonna register that stress. Unless you take a ton of beta blockers or you're like a Dexter level sociopath, which you're clearly not, or you're really good at those weird exercises that can apparently help you pass a polygraph, like rehearsing the answer perfectly or squeezing your sphincter muscle or whatever.

I'm not even sure that still works anymore, but some people say it does. Either way, that stuff is really hard and a lot of it's detectable.

[00:54:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know, I have a friend who for many years worked pretty high up in the government and he told me that in his interview for his security clearance, the interviewer asked him, okay, so you know, where'd you work during college?

Oh, Footlocker. Okay. Got it. And where do your parents live? Fort Worth. Uh huh. Tell me something. You ever did a little boys, they rarely asked

[00:55:19] Jordan Harbinger: him that and they just zero transition, right? Just boom. No,

[00:55:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: not at all. That's what he said. Because the whole goal is to catch people off guard and provoke an honest response.

And in his case he was just like, uh, absolutely not. And then they just moved on and it was fine. Right? Like

[00:55:32] Jordan Harbinger: whew. Thank God they didn't ask me about diddling little girls anyway.

[00:55:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Truly. Yeah. So they might ask our friend here about this porn thing. I'm not a hundred percent sure. I think he needs to be prepared for anything and hopefully he'll be pleasantly surprised.

By the way, my friend was working on biological and chemical weapons program, so maybe that had something to do with it. Wow. You know, they just need to make sure that the people working on that are really solid. Yeah. Or maybe he just happened to get a super agro interviewer who enjoyed messing with people.

I have a feeling police interviews are more chill. I just wanted to share that. So our friend here has all of the information. So look, we can't tell you what to do for sure, but if I were in your shoes and they asked me this, I think I would tell the truth, but I would keep it brief. I might say something like, no, I've never watched child porn once When I was 17, I was on a website, an ad popped up.

It was very misleading. I clicked it. It took me to a site that I quickly realized might have been dodgy, although I'm not a hundred percent sure it actually was. I did not watch any videos. I immediately turned it off. It disturbed me. It broke my heart. It ultimately led me to stop watching pornography altogether, and I still don't.

And I never intend to again. I mean, Jordan, please tell me, am I being naive? I feel like that's a noble answer. The polygraph might still register some stress, but I assume it won't register. The kind of stress that screams, you're lying and you're being transparent about the fact that this was an accident and you did not break the law.

I. Also, it might not have even been illegal. I have a hard time imagining that a PD would use that against you. Although honestly I have no idea what specific department's standards are or you know, what they think is excusable these days.

[00:57:06] Jordan Harbinger: And by the way, he can't be the first cop to fess up to watching porn.

No. If they even get asked about it.

[00:57:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, I read that law enforcement agencies are really struggling to recruit officers right now, these days in general. So I'm not sure that they can afford to be too picky, especially if you're perfect in every other way. Actually, it's, that just reminds me of another story.

Years ago I was doing a ride along with a cop. He was about the same age as our friend here. Very young. I was sitting in the passenger seat next to him on patrol and you know, we get to talking and he tells me, well, actually I did a bunch of MDMA when I was younger, and I was like, wow, really? And like, your department didn't mind when you, 'cause I assume you had to tell them that.

And he said, no, I'm, I was totally honest about it in my interviews. And some departments turned him down. He doesn't know for sure if that was why, but he didn't get jobs at some places. But the department he ended up working for, hired him.

[00:57:58] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. That's interesting and good to know. So these answers are not necessarily deal breakers.

[00:58:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Again, I think it depends on the department, but I think the real deal breaker is if they believe that you're lying. Right? So, no, I don't think your dreams are 100% gonna be crushed here. I also don't think that you're gonna be flagged in a system and never be able to become a police officer just because of this.

The worst thing that could happen based on what we have read is you fail a polygraph, which again, should only happen if you lie, and then you'll have to be honest about that in future polygraphs.

[00:58:26] Jordan Harbinger: As for feeling like you're complicit in funding that website somehow, I really would not stay up at night worrying about that because you didn't consume any of this content.

You didn't even know you were looking at it, and if that site made any money off you whatsoever, which I doubt it was probably like a 15 cent ad impression, you're not personally funding some international human trafficking ring or whatever. But again, the fact that you're so concerned about that, I think that speaks to your empathy, your character, and it's a sign that you're gonna make a great cop.

By the way, we're gonna link to an interesting document. We found the Law Enforcement Pre-employment Test by the National Center for Credibility Assessment. It covers the principles of the pre-employment test, the psychology of the test, the types of questions they ask, how to prepare. Definitely give that a read.

We'll link to that in the show notes for you. I would also reach out to other cops, you know, and ask them what the interviews were like. I wouldn't say, yo, are they gonna ask me if I watch any kiddie porn? Bro, I would, especially in that like strip club voice that I just did. Don't do that. Just ask them what questions they got asked and take some notes.

You might also wanna reach out to a lawyer who's represented police officers before, maybe an employment attorney. A quick consult might be free, even if they charge you a couple hundred bucks, it would be worth it to sleep at night and just go into these interviews feeling good.

[00:59:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: One last thing, our cop friend pointed out that a career in law enforcement is highly rewarding and also highly stressful.

Mm-Hmm. And he said that you're gonna have to see and deal with a lot of traumatic events in the course of your career. And the less emotional trauma you carry into the job, the better. So if you're carrying extreme guilt over this possible non-event when you were 17 years old. If you tend to hang on to things like this in general, he strongly recommends talking to a professional, having that space to work through these feelings.

And obviously we second that and that might be the most important takeaway from this anxiety of yours, how it might show up in this intense career, and how you need to take care of yourself.

[01:00:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, such a good point. So definitely keep chasing this dream bud. Sounds like you have a true calling to this work.

This country needs more police officers like you. And I hope your interviews go well. I have a feeling they will. Good luck. Alright, what's next?

[01:00:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys. I'm the rapid response slash ICU nurse who decided to go into informatics, who wrote you a while back, which Gabe decided to pronounce as informatics.

It should be informatics phonetically.

[01:00:42] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Fricking Gabe. What a, what A Steve mistake to make

[01:00:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: feels like more of an Aiden thing to do, but, okay. Weirdly, I just looked it up and the dictionary says informatics, so I'm confused.

[01:00:53] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Now you're back to being a Miranda. It's no winning with you.

[01:00:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm not gonna quibble with you friend whose field this actually is informatics.

It is. So she goes on. I was very worried that the immediate gratification of saving a life on the daily would prevent me from being fulfilled in the IT and educational realm. I just couldn't imagine my life without five hours of sleep. A monster energy drink at 6:00 AM and a day filled with trauma, physical and mental, both on mine and my patient's part.

[01:01:20] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh, brutal. What a career that is.

[01:01:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: These people are freaking heroes. Yeah, dude. It's insane. So she goes on. As I transitioned into this nine to five role, I kept the bedside job as an occasional option. I worked a couple of clinical bedside shifts and was taken aback by how much I just did not want to be there.

I spent well over a decade sacrificing my families and my own mental health. I've come to realize that you can be an amazing bedside nurse, but when you've had enough, you've had enough. Some people are built to handle the trauma of bedside nursing and some are not. It takes a big person to realize that maybe you're not the person for that.

I was great at my job, but it was not great for me. I wish that more people could use that as a guide for their career choices. In nursing, there are hundreds of other jobs you can do with your nursing degree. Now that I have an actual schedule, I've joined sports leagues and networking events. My life is better than I ever thought it would be.

After giving up what I was proficient at for years, I even met someone that I think is my person after being single for over a decade. At first, I was afraid you could say I was petrified, but I couldn't be happier with my career choice. I cannot stress enough that just because you're scared doesn't mean you shouldn't take the leap.

I. If anyone needs advice or a listening ear or anything at all, please connect them with me. It takes a village is not just a phrase for child rearing. Signed the data nerd who went with the flow and is absolutely a glow after saying goodbye to the highs and lows.

[01:02:48] Jordan Harbinger: Well, this is quite a turn of events. We wanted to share this with you guys because we know you guys like to hear how people's stories turn out.

We love that too. But Gabe and I were especially moved by this one because this isn't just, you know, like, oh, I gave up my job and I'm happy now. This is really a story about identity and about the courage to change that identity. What this listener did in giving up her ICU nursing career, it took guts, real guts.

Even though she had gotten to a place of such extreme burnout and disillusionment it, it's really scary to go, I'm gonna say goodbye to this role, to this lifestyle, to this whole thing. I'm gonna explore a different one. I think we have a lot of ego and self-concepts wrapped up in what we do. I know I do.

Even when something is making us miserable, we're often clinging to it, right? We, we resist opportunities to play and explore. We shut down the parts of ourselves that might be craving something different because leaving a field, even when you kind of hate sometimes, especially when you hate, if being able to survive makes you feel strong and capable and you're effectively trauma bonded with it, that can feel like failing.

That feeling of failure that can really keep us stuck. It certainly kept me stuck at a few points in my life, like, oh, I can't leave this toxic company because then they win and I'll be giving in, or I'll look weak, or I'll have to finally confront how truly untenable this whole thing was for so long, or I can't leave this country that's making me miserable.

It took me five months to learn how to ask the fricking grocery store clerk where the bread is. I want to be the kind of person who can survive in a tough place. I'm just gonna grit my teeth and wear it like a badge of honor, even if there's a better home for me out there, or whatever. Whatever the situation is.

And this is true of jobs, it's true of lifestyles, it's true of relationships, it's true of goals, it's even true of hobbies. Quitting is complicated, man. It puts us in touch with a lot, our fears, our limitations, our shame, our anxiety, our grief. So I totally get why we tend to stick with situations that just don't serve us very well.

I. But when we do that, we also miss out on so much of life and so much of ourselves, like our friend here who's not only enjoying this super exciting new career, she's also getting to live a real life. She's making new friends, she's dating someone great, which is even more inspiring later in life. So I guess what I wanted to leave you guys with, and our friend here has really brought this to life.

Sometimes quitting is the most courageous thing you can do, and sometimes what you find is that it actually takes less strength than sticking with some crappy situation. And quitting doesn't just automatically equal failure. Sometimes it just means change. In fact, the word quitting might not even be the right word a lot of the time.

Saying goodbye might be better, or putting something down or just playing. We have a lot of associations with the word quitting. If you quit, you're a quitter. What does that say about you? And over the years, I've really come to appreciate that deciding not to keep doing certain things is very powerful and essential.

Our friend here, put it best. Just because you're scared doesn't mean you shouldn't take the leap. If you do take the leap, then you also have to be willing to tolerate uncertainty, adversity, and you have to be willing to work hard. I mean, our friend here just went back to school to make this transition into nursing.

Lemme see if I get this right. Informatics.

[01:05:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: I still think it's informatics, but I'm not gonna, again, I can't quibble with the mistro here. We'll take her word for it, however

[01:05:50] Jordan Harbinger: you say it. Yeah, however you say it. She worked her butt off. She

[01:05:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: did. There's

[01:05:53] Jordan Harbinger: no substitute for that. It takes a lot of hustle and diligence to chart a better path, but sometimes the hardest part is just being willing to entertain the idea that there might be a better path.

And to have the courage and conviction to listen to that voice and follow it into something better, and to be willing to mourn the old you in order to make room for a new one, which in my experience, rarely as bad as it seems before you do it, usually pretty damn exciting, especially when you can already see a new chapter starting to take shape.

So kudos to you, my friend. Thank you for sharing this gem with us. We're super proud of you. We're excited for you. I am so happy you're in a great relationship and feeling alive. Most importantly, I'm thrilled that you're not chugging neon green, hyper caffeinated sludge at six o'clock in the morning.

Seriously, I think that's a huge win. Your internal organs are probably thanking you right now. Keep up the great work and please keep us informed or informed or in firmed. Just tell us how it goes.

[01:06:47] Clip: Do it live. I can. I'll write it and we'll do it live.

[01:06:51] Jordan Harbinger: Hope y'all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everybody who listened to us do it live.

Thank you for that. Go back and check out Phil Elwood and our Skeptical Sunday on the end of the world. If you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. The circle of people I know, like and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six minute networking course.

It is free. It's not gross, it's not schmoozy. A lot of you have written in and told me how this has helped you get better jobs, heal relationships. Just keep in touch with your friend circle. You can find it on the Thinkific platform@sixminutenetworking.com. Dig that well before you get thirsty. Folks.

Build relationships before you need them and maintain them in a way that isn't a huge pain in the butt. Show notes and transcripts@jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I am at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi, or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi.

The show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin.

Payne. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy.

[01:08:24] Clip: I think I did it in a way that most people don't. I just wanted to work on my own. I wanted the chance to build something from scratch, quote unquote my way.

I didn't know it was gonna be a startup. It was just me. I was futzing around with ideas. I just need space. A table, I. And my old laptop and a few ideas. It took more than a few to get to Instagram. Yeah. But that was the way I did it back then. We think there's a reason why startups started by like 20 year olds.

You can go hard to 4:00 AM every single day or maybe even longer. Yeah. You don't get sick. Like you don't really have kids. And that's part of the beautiful thing about entrepreneurship is that you can make a lot happen with a few people. Highly leveraged and uh, you know, if you stay healthy Yeah.

Everything goes well. We talked a lot about having like one tap magic. All Instagram was, was like that hour and a half in Photoshop in 0.5 seconds at the beginning. Going down to what? Five milliseconds towards the end. Rarely does your plan a work out. So you have to be able to be quick to move to where the fire starts.

Mm-Hmm. You can't wheel lightning is what I'm saying. YouTube was a dating site. It's crazy. That's wild

[01:09:34] Jordan Harbinger: to think about now. But

[01:09:34] Clip: you can go back and you can actually see in the way back machine, like what it looked like way back in the day. And it's striking actually, I hope in startups that someday there will be this moment where retro's cool again, where like people are like, we don't have an app.

We're just on the web

[01:09:51] Jordan Harbinger: for more from Kevin Systrom, including how to get honest feedback from others and when you should and should not listen to it. Check out episode 3 35 right here on the Jordan Harbinger show.