1020: Sovereign Citizens | Skeptical Sunday

1020: Sovereign Citizens | Skeptical Sunday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Skeptical Sunday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday Co-host Michael Lio on the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life.

And those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. On Sundays, though, we do Skeptical Sunday, where a rotating guest, co-host and I breakdown a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions.

Topics such as why circumcision might not be a thing you wanna do to your kid or yourself. Astrology, recycling, hypnosis, homeopathy, and more. And if you're new to the show or you want a handy way to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs. These are collections of our favorite episodes organized by topic to help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show, topics like Persuasion and Influence, China and North Korea, crime and Cults and more.

Just visit Jordan harbinger.com/start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Today we got a weird one, but that's what skeptical Sunday's all about, right? Imagine you're pulled over by the police. The officer comes to the car window and asks for your license and registration. You tell 'em you don't need a license or registration because you are not subject to the laws of the land.

And when the officer questions your license plate that you printed out on an inkjet printer or something, you respond, it's self issued and proclaim that police. Have no authority, and this obviously ends in your arrest slash tasing. And as unbelievable as this sounds, this happens all the time because here in the United States there are some headstrong individuals living under, let's just say, a very different social contract than the rest of us.

They are sovereign citizens, or at least that's what they seem to think. And Michael Lio is here to break us free from the mystery of the sovereign citizen movement.

[00:01:58] Michael Regilio: Hey, Jordan. Do you consider yourself a free man? I suppose I do. Well, you're wrong. You are a slave to a corporate overlord you don't even know exists.

[00:02:09] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Alright, so right off the bat, this sounds a little bit like a conspiracy theory nonsense kind of thing. Well, welcome to the philosophy of sovereign citizens. So what is a sovereign citizen? I mean, the name sort of implies one thing, but I It can't be that. So what does it mean?

[00:02:25] Michael Regilio: Well, sovereign citizens are people who don't acknowledge the legitimacy of the United States government.

Sovereign citizens don't pay taxes. They don't have IDs, they don't register their cars. They don't even acknowledge zip codes. And unsurprisingly, they have contentious run-ins with

[00:02:40] Jordan Harbinger: the law. It sounds like it would be hard to mail something, but I, I can get behind the not paying taxes thing. I just don't see how it works at scale.

The police though, don't seem to be too concerned if you have faith and believe in their authority or not. It's kind of like science. They, they're more interested in the fact that you don't have a driver's license or an address with a zip code on it that you maybe don't answer to your name. There's a lot of problems that they have that don't require you to believe in them.

[00:03:04] Michael Regilio: I know, but sovereign citizens, they don't just not believe in the police, they don't believe the courts have jurisdiction over 'em. Mm. They do believe certain special procedures like. Writing specific phrases on bills they don't want to pay and other loopholes can make them immune from, well, everything they believe in a nutshell, they are not subject to the laws of the United States of America.

[00:03:25] Jordan Harbinger: So I think I've heard of things like this with the bills in Canada though, there's someone who says, she's like the rightful queen, and she's like, all you have to do is write this magic phrase on the bill. And people are like, why did my electricity get shut off? And it's because she's mentally ill and just a Twitter grifter.

Mm-Hmm. But what do they believe? Do they think they're above the law? What's happening here?

[00:03:45] Michael Regilio: Well, no. The thing about this is these people don't think they're above the law. They think they're in a different dimension from the law, or at least I think they're, they think they're in a different dimension from the law.

I really can't stress enough how hard it is to comprehend most of their beliefs. Body cam footage of them trying to explain this stuff to a cop has made for several viral videos.

[00:04:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I've seen a few of those. You can, you can only declare you aren't subject to laws until the copies of phony so many times before they slap on

[00:04:12] Michael Regilio: the cuffs or worse.

Right. And the videos of them in courtrooms are even more strange. They always represent themselves and they use this weird language that they think is credible, but it's just jargon from someone who doesn't understand law. It's described as pseudo legalese. Ah, yes. Pseudo law.

[00:04:30] Jordan Harbinger: My favorite class back at Michigan Law School.

But I, they have to represent themselves if they're gonna do this, because if they get a regular lawyer, the lawyer's gonna go, yeah, that's not real, and I'm not going to go up there and do that because I'm going to lose my license and you're going to get thrown in jail and I'm gonna Yeah. Get disbarred.

So, no thank you. So they have to fire. Every lawyer that goes into that court and represent themselves, which is a terrible idea.

[00:04:54] Michael Regilio: Yeah, I mean, I've seen the videos and of like judges trying to, I don't know if you'd say humor them or accommodate them. I saw one guy who was like, I am not him. I'm a rep. I am the flesh and blood representative of the corporate being.

That is that name that you represent, and the judge just finally says. Okay. You know what? I'm throwing you both in jail. So, I mean, they believe they're pulling the mask back on a deep and terrible truth.

[00:05:21] Jordan Harbinger: Okay? But what is the truth that they are revealing? What exactly do they believe I get? You don't wanna pay your car insurance or you know your taxes on your property, but what?

What's the truth that they think? They're unveiling.

[00:05:33] Michael Regilio: Okay. This is the hardest thing to deal with when dealing with sovereign citizens is that no two of them think the same thing for the same reasons. They just, they, it's a loose conglomeration and it depends on which sovereign citizens you ask. That is on brand though.

It would

[00:05:46] Jordan Harbinger: be weird if they were all sovereign, but they like had one association. Of course that would mean they were together. These guys are all kind of like, I'm my own thing and nothing. Thing applies to me. That's what it sounds like so far,

[00:05:57] Michael Regilio: and that's because there are no founding documents of the movements.

No manifestos or sovereign citizen constitution. There are varying ideas of what proves their sovereignty. However, there are some things that the plurality of sovereign citizens believe. And I'm here to tell you, it's all baffling, but most theories have the same conclusion. An illegitimate corporation replaced the federal government, and that corporation runs the country today.

[00:06:23] Jordan Harbinger: So when you say corporation, we're using the actual term like a company. So yeah, instead of Microsoft, it's just like America or the United States, or. Whatever. That's what they're alleging.

[00:06:34] Michael Regilio: Asserting. Yes. And this corporation has abandoned the justice system and uses maritime law or admiralty law. You know the laws of the sea.

[00:06:41] Jordan Harbinger: I do. Yeah. And it's funny, the law firm I used to work for that was a finance firm started off as Admiralty law 'cause it's, you know, 150 years old. But that's like stuff where when your shipment is attacked by pirates on the way to the United States from the Caribbean. Something, something. Here's where the law, I mean, it doesn't make any sense.

The, for one thing, it's not law of land. It's law of, anyway, that's the whole point. So does that make sovereign citizens, pirates, privateers? Is that where they're going with this or, or what?

[00:07:09] Michael Regilio: I mean, who's to say? But in many ways, yes. Admiralty Law is a big deal in sovereign theory. They assert they are not subject to the court's rulings because they are only subject to common law, and the court is a secret admiralty court.

Okay, hold on.

[00:07:25] Jordan Harbinger: The court that they're in for a crime. They committed on land for, let's say, driving a car that's stolen or was never purchased or their tax lien, whatever. They're saying, aha, this court doesn't affect me because it's actually a court. That's the law of the sea and, and then, or that, or it's not a court of the law of the sea, and I'm only subject to the law of the sea.

I'm trying to wrap my mind around this crap. It's not working, and you will never

[00:07:51] Michael Regilio: get there because it's not mind wrap around a bull. But the fact of the matter is no, they do assert that they are subject to common law, but again, their description or their definition of that is way off. That this corporation, which took over the country is somehow working on maritime law and they're not subject to it.

In fact, sovereign citizens claim American flags with gold trim or gold Fringe are proof of admiralty court. So if one hangs in the courtroom, they say the court is illegitimate and holds no authority.

[00:08:22] Jordan Harbinger: Even though they're supposed to be under the Admiralty law, the flag in the courtroom is of Admiralty Law, but still, somehow nothing applies to them, even though that's supposed to be the thing, because that court shouldn't have that flag.

Thus, everything they do is a farce,

[00:08:36] Michael Regilio: I guess. So they don't feel like they're under Admiralty law, though. They feel like they, if they're under any law, and again, these are disparate groups with different beliefs, but if they're under any law, they're under common law, and that gets weird too.

[00:08:48] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Okay. So I wonder how they define common law because that does mean something in actual legal terms, but I assume that they then have their own ridiculous non definition that gets them out of basically all rights and responsibility or all responsibilities and only leaves them with rights.

Because so far what it sounds like to me is. They want all the rights of living in a country that's free, but they want none of the responsibilities that go along with that licensing taxes, not shooting at police that come on your land to get something that doesn't belong to you. So for the record, a lawyer would tell you something along the lines of common law is the body of law created by judges in similar quasi-judicial tribunals by virtue of being stated in written opinions.

And that's a fancy way of saying. That when a court makes a decision about something that isn't just codified in law because it's a weird scenario that's dependent on a set of facts, the court might say, well, in this case, even though this isn't under a formal definition of what is pornographic, the court decides that things that have this are pornographic.

And so later, when that exact case arrives again or comes up again, and it's very similar. People would argue, Hey, in in previous decisions, the Supreme Court decided that this was pornographic. Therefore, this other new instance is also pornographic. And so common law courts look to past decisions of courts to synthesize legal principles of past cases.

So I'm guessing sovereign citizen types, they just have a different idea of this and maybe they freeze. Common law at a year that's convenient for them to get away with whatever the hell they want.

[00:10:20] Michael Regilio: Again, it depends on who you ask. Some sovereigns say common law is what the United States of America started with, and it's validated by the constitution.

Others insist that biblical or divine mandates from God create common law. Common law overrides what? Sovereignty as illegitimate laws of the United States. So I assume someone with a legal background like yourself can confirm this is all sovereign citizen patter.

[00:10:44] Jordan Harbinger: Sure. So in a way, they're not wrong about the United States starting with some common law because common law comes from England or the UK or whatever.

Now. And so yes, that was the set of laws because we essentially adopted a large part of that legal system, and then we wrote laws on top of that, like the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. We fought a war over that kind of thing in part over that kind of thing. But that doesn't mean that every law after that is somehow nonsense.

That's ridiculous. That doesn't make any sense. Yeah, that's patter as you put it. Yeah. I'm still unclear on how they came to this conclusion, but it's starting to sound more and more like just kooky and there's no. Logical process by which they get there.

[00:11:24] Michael Regilio: Right. And it's understandable that it's not clear because it's not clear, but from what I've read, sovereign citizens bounce between a few theories to justify why they believe the court's rule with maritime law.

Bear with me. There's a theory that when Abraham Lincoln declared martial law in 1863, he. Effectively dissolved the federal government. That sounds like the plot to Wild, wild West with Will Smith. Am I wrong? It's not far off because it is a sci-fi adventure. When you get into the minds of sovereign citizens, everything they believe sounds like it's out of a movie.

Another theory states that maritime law became the law of the land in 1933 because the United States went off the gold standard. Some claim, Admiralty Law is based on principles of international commerce. Somehow. And others argue. The 14th Amendment provides citizenship only to African Americans leaving white people without US citizenship and without legal obligation.

Ah, how convenient.

[00:12:19] Jordan Harbinger: I've seen things like this. A friend of mine, a couple friends of mine work at Vice. I. They went to this seminar where a guy was like, anybody you know that's vaccinated, you can just move into their house because they're gonna die in a year and you then will legally own the house. And so there were these people at this kind of like empty seminar room who had bought tickets to see this kooky guy speak about how you can literally just walk into a person's house and take all their stuff.

You can make some magical declaration, sovereign citizen, something, something, and you just now, you're the rightful owner of everything, and then they're gonna die anyways before the court gets around to kicking you out and you're gonna be something, something squatters, right? It just all total delusional crap.

Going back to what you said before that this is extreme. So are there no black sovereign citizens, it's just white people that

[00:13:09] Michael Regilio: do this? Well, no, but I mean the roots of the movement did grow out of white nationalism. That's just a fact, which makes it all the more shocking that the modern sovereign citizen movement has an African American branch.

Let me introduce you. To the

[00:13:22] Jordan Harbinger: Moorish citizens more, more sovereign, more confusing, or like Mors is in the fricking, yeah, Moroccans.

[00:13:30] Michael Regilio: Exactly. The moreish sovereign citizens were established in the 1990s. Moreish sovereigns believe African Americans are a unique class. They believe they have special rights that give them sovereign immunity.

And are not subject to American laws. That's interesting.

[00:13:44] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So you're talking about the Moroccans that swept into Spain and Portugal. And I, my history's a little shady on this, but I don't understand why that would affect African Americans. Right. But then again, I keep trying to make logical connections to something that somebody makes up when they wake up on a, when they roll out of bed and decide they don't wanna pay a parking ticket.

So I'm probably just giving 'em way too much credit.

[00:14:03] Michael Regilio: Exactly. I, I, you're, we're not going to make sense of any of this today, so just. Accept that. Just give up. This is, there is a theory, this is the Morris Theory, that a 1787 treaty between the United States and Morocco grants them immunity from US laws.

The thing is, there was no such treaty. Even if there

[00:14:24] Jordan Harbinger: was, what would the treaty look like? Okay. We're just going to put all the people that have a certain pigmentation in their skin under the laws of this treaty and everybody else's. I mean, that's patently ridiculous. And also imagine adjudicating that, sir, you are not dark enough to fall under this treaty.

I've got my meter out and you just. You need to get more sun and get a tan if you wanna be immune to US law. I mean, it doesn't make any sense. Yeah.

[00:14:49] Michael Regilio: Okay. Again, you want no sense, look, promise me you'll ask no further questions on this one. But some more sovereign citizens claim that the United States is secretly Morocco.

[00:15:00] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, I would've saved so much money on my trip to actual Morocco if I'd known I was already living there. How can they base their beliefs on a non-existent treaty? Does somebody have a copy of this and they say this has just been hidden from the books? Is that the idea?

[00:15:15] Michael Regilio: Oh, I've never seen a copy of it or even anyone trying to back this up.

They just believe it exists,

[00:15:20] Jordan Harbinger: period. That's it. They believe it exists, but nobody has a copy of it. So it's not that they think they're their own country, but they think they are exempt from citizenship, which makes them exempt from laws. And apparently they've never been to another country where they're also not a citizen and they do have to follow the laws because they're a foreigner by definition and still subject to the laws of the land.

Man.

[00:15:40] Michael Regilio: Exhausting. I mean, it's again, disparate. They all believe different things, but some sovereign citizens believe there are two classes of citizens within the United States. One class is sovereign or original citizens. Mm-Hmm. A second class is federal or US citizens, and that was created by the 14th Amendment.

Sovereign citizens have all the rights of the constitution, but federal citizens don't. Okay. I'm so tempted to shred this thing, but how do we know which class of citizen we are? Yeah, they say federal citizens voluntarily surrendered their freedoms in exchange for benefits from the United States government.

I. But sovereign citizens renounce federal citizenship and reclaim their rights as common law citizens.

[00:16:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So they must use their own roads and have their own army, navy, and air force to defend their land course. Yeah. And their own power plants. Yeah. So this sounds insane, not to mention ridiculously and needlessly complicated.

[00:16:32] Michael Regilio: Uh huh. Well, Jordan, that's because it is insane and ridiculously and needlessly complicated. Gotcha. Sovereign citizens arguments have no basis in law and have never been successful in court. Shocking. They think it's illegal to be processed in a courtroom. The rationale becomes more and more like gibberish, but they all end on the idea that the corporation.

That replaced the government is being held prisoner by foreign banks. Therefore, they believe they are subject to no authority other than themselves. It's funny

[00:17:04] Jordan Harbinger: that you say they think it's illegal to be processed in a courtroom, so they do have some laws that they think they're subject to, but only the ones that seem really convenient to them not having to follow any of the other laws that they don't like.

Mm-Hmm. That is some mental gymnastics without founding documents or universally accepted beliefs. How can they agree on anything? Does it matter if they agree on anything? Maybe they don't 'cause they all live 600 miles apart. I don't know.

[00:17:26] Michael Regilio: Well, the main commonality is they all maintain a, leave me alone credo, leave me alone.

Government leave me alone. Thanks. And of course, they agree that somewhere in the past, this one, they all seem to believe. The US government dissolved and became a US corporation. Why did the government dissolve according to sovereign

[00:17:43] Jordan Harbinger: citizens? Okay, here we go. Okay. Yes. Brace it. Take a deep breath and a drink of water.

[00:17:49] Michael Regilio: 'cause this is gonna make no frigging sense to take the existing government of the United States of America and replace it with. The United States. Okay, so no of

[00:18:00] Jordan Harbinger: America by design. 'cause I noticed you left that part out,

[00:18:03] Michael Regilio: Uhhuh. That's right. The country of the United States of America became the United States, the corporate entity.

I'm guessing this supposed change was a bad thing somehow. Yes, definitely a bad thing because the United States, the corporation went bankrupt at some point, according to sovereigns. So as collateral to foreign debtors, the corporation promised every single American citizen sovereigns described this several ways.

The non sovereigns are wards of the state and the chattel property of the US federal government. That is until you declare your independence.

[00:18:39] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so we're all secretly slaves other than them, of course. How do they do that? Are sovereigns writing their own personal declarations of independence? 'cause I, I've seen the try cornered hats and stuff like that and I've heard, I've seen some of the rants usually when they get pulled over.

Yeah. Is this linked to the hats or something? What's

[00:18:55] Michael Regilio: going on there? In truth, you're onto something there, and we're gonna get into this. It is a kind of fantasy role play that's part of the appeal. Sovereigns see themselves as patriots of the real America, or at least some of them do. And the rest of us are just useful idiots.

Wait, so

[00:19:11] Jordan Harbinger: if we are all collateral to America's debtors, what is the debt

[00:19:17] Michael Regilio: unclear. And by the way, how big was this debt that it's still not paid off? Also unclear. I mean, if Abraham Lincoln started this in 1863, how big was this debt? It's not paid off yet with every American, it's mind boggling.

[00:19:33] Jordan Harbinger: Alright, we're gonna take a minute to hear from some actual corporations who sponsor the show.

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You can search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support us. Now, back to skeptical Sunday. Where is the money that's also paying it off? Is it coming from the treasury? I mean, we can account for that theoretically. Oh, get ready. Let me guess.

That's a secret. There's a secret bank that we don't know about. Oh. Oh. That has to be the it.

[00:22:20] Michael Regilio: Oh, they know about it. Of course, sovereign citizens attest that there is a secret bank account set up in your name. That the government controls.

[00:22:28] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so I was close, not, not necessarily a secret bank, just another duplicate account at Chase or whatever.

Okay. That sounds like identity theft at its worst. 300 plus million stolen identities and duplicate. What a paperwork nightmare. That must have been, huh? I mean, you thought Wells Fargo was up to No. Good. Imagine having a secret bank account for every single person in the United States. Okay, continue.

[00:22:48] Michael Regilio: Alright. Look, to understand this, you need to understand, you need to realize you are not the person on your birth certificate. The birth certificate in Sovereign Thinking is its own entity. So does my birth certificate have different rights than I do? Your birth certificate is the corporate entity Get ready.

'cause this is, this is big with them. Okay. Of Jordan Harbinger, all caps. Okay. But you are the separate flesh and blood person named Jordan Harbinger. Okay.

[00:23:21] Jordan Harbinger: And that's a different, well, all right. What's the rationale for this? I want it, I, I want it to make sense somehow, just like a little bit. Why are there two?

[00:23:28] Michael Regilio: Why is there two? Come on. You are Jordan Harbinger, spelled with a capital J, followed by lowercase letters and a capital H followed by lowercase letters. Your birth certificate is all caps. The all caps. Jordan Harbinger is a separate entity. Okay, so caps lock isn't just for yelling at people through text messages.

Got it. This is one of those places that sovereign citizens get oddly specific. They insist that the corporation that is the US government uses Section 3 0 8 of the Uniform Commercial Code to justify using US citizens as collateral to the Federal Reserve. Legal scholars respond to this by saying, wait, what?

I second that.

[00:24:09] Jordan Harbinger: Wait, what? Also, a professor that I had a class with at Michigan Law, he basically authored the UCC and we had a class with him, like I said, and he forgot to mention that we were all property of the government. I mean, Emma, he left that out somehow. He was mostly discussing contracts and transactions.

So it seems like in quite the oversight that he forgot to mention that this also dictates the fact that there's a corporate entity for me and each one of us, and that it's paying off a secret bank debt and that we're all slaves. It seems like we should have covered that at some point during that course.

[00:24:40] Michael Regilio: Mm, sounds like he's in on it.

[00:24:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, obviously he's in on it. He wrote the, the fake. Laws that maybe don't apply to whatever.

[00:24:48] Michael Regilio: He's a corporate overlord, clearly. Mm-Hmm. The uniform Commercial code is big with some sovereign citizens. This is part of their right to travel philosophy. These sovereigns believe that as long as they don't travel for commerce or cross state lines, they don't need a license or registration.

They'll paint. Private use on their vehicle and issued themselves license plates.

[00:25:09] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. I have seen these guys say like, sir, you know, fast, you were going and thought I was, I'm traveling. Yeah, okay, sir. Do you, you, you don't have a valid license plate on your vehicle. I'm traveling and it's like, what are you talking now it all makes sense.

I'm like, why would you, who cares if you're traveling? Everybody's traveling when they're in a vehicle. Google traveling. Now I understand why they're so insistent on the terms it sounds. Well, anyway, what do their license plates read? I am in my own state. Yeah, like what is on there? Or is it Arabic? 'cause they're from Morocco now?

No, no, that's

[00:25:42] Michael Regilio: only some that are from Morocco. Okay. It's, it's, these are, again, this is a diverse group. And by the way, I mean this one crossed my mind too. It's like, for one, if you're issuing your own license plate. What? Does it matter what state you're in? Yeah. Why bother with that at

[00:25:55] Jordan Harbinger: all? Again, kooky.

Yeah, like I'm following the law. Wait, the law, that doesn't apply to me. Well, I'm following part of it because I have a paper license plate. Just drive a car with no plate at that point. Yeah. Why? Who cares about that then at that point, it's not like they had license plates in Morocco in 1700 or whatever the fake treaty got signed.

Beats me, man. Look,

[00:26:14] Michael Regilio: another scheme they use is about writing. They're confident that if they use red ink and write diagonally. They'll make legal documents invalid, so they never use black or blue ink again. They say Section 3 0 8 of the Uniform Commercial Code reserves your rights if you're signing something.

And how do they justify these interpretations that nobody else has? Well, how do you justify any conspiracy theory? I. The sovereign citizen movement can be traced back to the 1960s in a magazine called Omni Publications. It was like the Infowars of its time. It pedaled conspiracy. Fans of Alex Jones would recognize the tenor and mindset of omni publications.

Just to give you a little flavor, 1 19 71 article they published titled The Federal Reserve Conspiracy said that. Enemy aliens infiltrated the banking system and their biographies could be found in the who's who of American Jewry. The word

[00:27:05] Jordan Harbinger: Jewry isn't used nearly enough. Am I right folks? Um, yeah, that's, there's not anything subtle about that.

I don't think you can even use the word Jewry now without really obviously sounding like you believe that. Jews are lizard people. Illuminati controlling the world. Yeah. There's no more use case for that one.

[00:27:25] Michael Regilio: I would agree. And the fact of the matter is the sovereign citizen movement has its roots in antisemitism.

And just like today, the driver of the conspiracy theorists is the money that is made pushing them. In order to understand the rise of the ideology of sovereign citizens, one must understand those who sell the ideology. The gurus. Ooh, please tell me. They call themselves gurus 'cause that's really rich.

They absolutely do, and they appeal to desperate people, like people in foreclosure or debt. The gurus do more to explain the expansion of the movement than any logic in the arguments.

[00:28:00] Jordan Harbinger: That is good because there is no, there's no logic in the arguments at all. None so far Anyway. I understand the desperation thing.

Now it all starts to make sense. Like who believes you could just walk into someone's house because they got vaccinated and they're gonna die, and then you get the house and it's, the answer is somebody who believes, rightfully or not, that they will never be able to afford a house and is possibly already homeless or whatever.

[00:28:24] Michael Regilio: Yeah, and let's start with the first guru of the movement. His name was William Potter Gale. This dude served in the military, became an Episcopalian minister, and eventually started his own church. It's reported Gail was a founding member of many Christian identity groups. One was described by the Anti-Defamation League as a paramilitary tax resistance group.

This propelled him to be a founding member of the posse com. I don't know if you've heard of them. That

[00:28:48] Jordan Harbinger: does sound

[00:28:48] Michael Regilio: familiar. What is that? Posse. Citis, which became the Sovereign Citizen movement, was an anti-government, anti-Semitic, white Nationalist Christian movement.

[00:28:56] Jordan Harbinger: Those words all in a row just make it sound worse and worse.

Like you start off Posse Citis, and then you go, you just slide down. Yeah, you just keep slide and you keep sliding.

[00:29:08] Michael Regilio: Yikes. By the way, this episode, we are just gonna keep sliding. Okay. Posse Cometi came to be when William Potter Gale met a group of tax protestors who believed that paying taxes was a form of slavery.

Mm-hmm. Posse com is known for extreme right wing beliefs and warfare by paperwork.

[00:29:24] Jordan Harbinger: Interesting combination. When you say warfare by paperwork, are you talking about lawsuits? You know, just like frivolous crap.

[00:29:31] Michael Regilio: Left and right. I mean, pointless lawsuits and frivolous paperwork. This is referred to as paper terrorism.

Hmm. It's the core operating principle of many litigious organizations. It's still a popular tactic with sovereigns who will use false liens and frivolous legal action to harass their opponents.

[00:29:47] Jordan Harbinger: If this sounds more like, it's kind of culty, right? You hear about certain cults. Just being super litigious and trying to sue everybody and saying, we're gonna out you as a pedophile and defame you.

And you're like, oh God, I can't fight 17 lawyers who are working for free because they believe in aliens, so they file false liens. That's so ironic. Somehow. Yeah. Right, because a lien is kind of. By almost definition it's rooted in law and debt and the taxation and things like, I mean, there's the whole idea of lean is really, yeah.

For people who don't believe in laws. Yeah. It's a

[00:30:19] Michael Regilio: legal construct only, and I don't know if it sometimes works, but it sometimes works. I. On the short scale, and we'll see a lot of that with this episode. There are cases of sovereign citizens taking over property and someone's home through bogus quick claim deeds.

You would know what that is? Yeah. A

[00:30:34] Jordan Harbinger: quick claim deed. I learned about this a really long time ago on property, and so my definition is gonna be way off and oversimplified, but basically it's a fast way to transfer property to somebody who's buying that property. But there's no protections for the buyer.

I vaguely remember that kind of thing. It's not, I don't know if they're even used anymore. Geez, it's been a

[00:30:53] Michael Regilio: zillion years. Some call 'em like revenge liens. This is particularly popular with the Maorish sovereign citizens who claim they have Native American roots as well as, yeah, as well as Moroccan roots.

[00:31:04] Jordan Harbinger: Pick up your mind. I thought they were Moroccan five minutes ago. Okay. So you're saying sovereign citizens also use the courts they don't believe in and don't believe apply to anybody to harass their opponents.

[00:31:16] Michael Regilio: Sovereign, see, it all is fair game. Mm-Hmm. They try to use litigation to fight what they perceive as government oppression, forcing them into slavery.

I. Slavery, meaning paying taxes or obtaining a license for phishing or whatever.

[00:31:29] Jordan Harbinger: I do cringe and recoil when people start redefining slavery as anything other than, you know, slavery.

[00:31:36] Michael Regilio: Yeah, I, I like to call white sovereign citizens, so blancs, but that's pretty good, but whatever you call them, this guy Gail, profited off the movement, just like sovereign gurus do today.

They sell. Everything from how to books to sovereign citizens starter packs, and the biggest item they all sell is diplomatic immunity cards. Ooh, show me a

[00:31:59] Jordan Harbinger: guru and I'm gonna show you some merch slash a scam artist. So what is the selling point of a diplomatic immunity card? I mean, it does sound great.

If it were more than what I assume is expensive and useless plastic, laminated word vomit,

[00:32:13] Michael Regilio: and you got that exactly right. These gurus convince people if they create their own country and issue themselves cards that say diplomatic immunity. They'll have diplomatic immunity, but of course the average Joe doesn't know the magic words to put on it or the correct font or whatever, but the guru does.

This is huge money and people are getting ripped off.

[00:32:32] Jordan Harbinger: I'm so curious who they think is appointing them as a diplomat when they order a card online in a specific font. I am now a diplomat. Okay. But you still can't just break laws. You get deported when you do that as a diplomat. You can't just run around doing whatever the hell you want.

Not that logic ever constrained these people. Okay? So they don't believe in money, but they're fine grifting to make money,

[00:32:55] Michael Regilio: right? Like they don't believe in the government backing of the money, but they're fine with the things it buys. Ah, the hypocrisy. Love it. Bingo. And the sovereign gurus offer so much more.

Yes, they sell you how to books and membership cards. But what they're really selling is hope. Mm-Hmm. I'm talking about the good news of the sovereign

[00:33:14] Jordan Harbinger: movement, the good news that sounds even more like a cult, or at least a religion that sends oddly dressed people to your door or the airport to stand around all day.

[00:33:24] Michael Regilio: Well, when you buy into the sovereign citizen theory, there's a tangible upside. Not only are you out of debt because, uh, your birth certificate is actually the one who owes the debt, not you, you. But there is a bunch of money waiting for you somewhere. Oh, well, I will admit secret money for me. That is indeed good news.

Mm-Hmm. And a common belief is that the corporations masquerading as our country owes you money. I'm sure you're familiar with what we know in philosophy as the straw man argument.

[00:33:54] Jordan Harbinger: Of course. It's when a debate opponent creates a false argument. Accuses you of then holding that belief and then attacks that belief.

[00:34:02] Michael Regilio: That's right.

[00:34:03] Jordan Harbinger: Now

[00:34:03] Michael Regilio: forget it. 'cause sovereign citizens have their own definition of a straw man. Okay. The straw man account is the bank account attached to the corporate entity, Jordan Harbinger, all caps. And this bank account is overflowing with cash. It's known in sovereign circles as redemption.

According to the sovereigns, the government set up secret accounts in our names, aha, as one

[00:34:26] Jordan Harbinger: does, right? So there's a secret bank account with my name on it, and that's full of money, and that's my money. But the government won't tell me that because then they would have to give it to me.

[00:34:34] Michael Regilio: Close. Let's get this straight.

Now there's a secret bank account with your. Birth certificate's name on it.

[00:34:40] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, so my birth certificate has been making money, man, that's one talented birth certificate. That birth cert takes no days off. That's

[00:34:47] Michael Regilio: amazing. And sovereigns believe with the right magic words, forms and handshakes, you can access it.

I know this is a dumb question, but here we go. How much is in the account? This is one of those places where some sovereigns get oddly specific and believe there's $630,000 in that account. Why? I don't know. Some say more. Right. That doesn't make any sense. I've seen as much as 6 million.

[00:35:11] Jordan Harbinger: I said it doesn't make any sense, but that's a stupid observation because of course it doesn't make any sense.

So if 3-year-old has the same amount as an 83-year-old because whatever.

[00:35:20] Michael Regilio: Mm-Hmm.

[00:35:20] Jordan Harbinger: So this is the same money that sovereign citizens don't. Actually believe in, in the first place, right? And I'm guessing that accessing this money is another thing. The guru is the only person who can help you with, right?

They can get it for you. Now you're on the non-governmental grifter trolley, okay? But it's all fake. There's no such account. Surely this theory has fallen flat on its face by virtue of the fact that nobody has ever gotten this money.

[00:35:43] Michael Regilio: Well, here's the thing. The IRS is underfunded and overworked.

Investigators refer only about two dozen sovereign scams cases for prosecution each year. The fact of the matter is the agency sometimes misses returns that should raise a red flag or two. For example, in 2016, the IRS discovered a sizable redemption or straw man scheme, but only after issuing more than 43 million to sneaky sovereigns.

That's another reason these strange theories persist sometimes, at least for a little while. They work.

[00:36:15] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that's so irritating. Right? So, gosh, don't even get me started. Okay. So that might work, but for how long? I mean, eventually the IRS is gonna go, oh wait, he wrote off this and this, and we got a huge tax refund.

But the line on here says you owe it to me because your, the flag on the building has a gold fringe. Like that's Mm-Hmm. Not gonna hold water. They're gonna come looking for the money.

[00:36:35] Michael Regilio: Right. But just like all fantastical beliefs, sovereigns record only the hits and ignore the misses. Again, I can't stress enough how much these gurus play a role.

The New York Times ran a heartbreaking story of an older couple that found themselves in debt and turned to the sovereign guru, Sean David Morton. I. Morton describes himself as a psychic ologist and America's prophet. What's a ologist? UFO Ologist. Ah,

[00:37:00] Jordan Harbinger: okay. I was like, well, that sounds like a real no no.

Okay. How does a, how does a person go from such prestigious work as a

[00:37:10] Michael Regilio: psychic scammer to a sovereign citizen guru? Well, the article in the New York Times Chronicles how many people put their trust in Mr. Morton's promises. He offered a workshop called The Revolution, starts with You. His advertisement read.

Do you realize you are all considered incompetent wards of the state residents in the channel property of the US Federal government until you declare your emancipation, learn all the secrets about how to get the government off your back and out of your life once and for

[00:37:37] Jordan Harbinger: all. Wow. Well, he might've been onto something with the incompetent part That is a catchy ad.

Okay. What were his secrets to sovereign

[00:37:44] Michael Regilio: success? One of his secrets was called the bond process. Mr. Morton said that by submitting the right set of papers, you could wipe out your mortgage tax bills and student loans. Again, this message lands with desperate people. Many find their way into the sovereign movement through financial desperation.

In the end, lots of people were ripped off, lots of people lost their money, and this dude went to prison. We're

[00:38:09] Jordan Harbinger: gonna be right back. In the meantime, how about using some of that fake illegitimate US government currency to support one of the sponsors that supports this show? We'll be right back.

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Now for the rest of skeptical Sunday. I'm glad he went to prison. I feel bad for the victims, even though it's really dumb to fall for something like that. Desperation makes people do dumb stuff. I mean, if you. Make 30 grand a year and you just got laid off and you have a hundred thousand dollars or $500,000 left on your house and student loans.

I mean, yeah, it's a hole that you can't imagine crawling out of. So this, this message lands with people that aren't thinking straight. So these scam artists and paperwork terrorists, do they eventually face consequences? I mean, that guy went to prison, but I'm guessing most of these guys are just small fry jagoffs.

[00:41:10] Michael Regilio: Yeah. And this is, uh, just a sad fact of the matter, but the IRS can spend twice as much money tracking down the stolen money, so it's often just not worth them to go after it.

[00:41:19] Jordan Harbinger: Right? So they don't get the money back. We as taxpayers don't get the money back. But then this person drives their pretend license plate car around and gets pulled over and they find out they've got a bench warrant, then they get arrested for that kind of, that's so dumb.

What a dumb way. To go to jail. So if these desperate people talk to a bankruptcy lawyer instead of a guru, they'd probably be better off. Oh God. How many people are sovereign citizens? This

[00:41:42] Michael Regilio: is a popular thing. Southern Poverty Law Center estimates that there are between 200,000 and 300,000 people that Wow.

Clear themselves. Sovereign citizens just. Under 1% of the US population.

[00:41:54] Jordan Harbinger: That is way more than I thought. That's way, way more than I thought. Mm-Hmm. I thought you were gonna knock a zero off those numbers. And then I, and even that was gonna be kind of high. That is a lot. Okay. Any one of note that we've, is part of this crap, you know, like Scientology has, uh, Tom Cruise, John Travolta.

Who's the John Travolta of Sovereign Citizen Nonsense? Wesley Snipes was famously a sovereign citizen. Really? I remember he went to jail for tax problems. Is that what this is all about? Sounds like he bet it all

[00:42:26] Michael Regilio: on black after all, and uh, and lost. Yeah. Well, Snipes fell victim to this ideology and paid the price he had fallen under the sway of a sovereign citizen guru.

Sadly, he's not the only recognizable name affiliated with the movement, but to hear the other ones, you have to go over to the FBI's Most Wanted list. Yeah, I don't

[00:42:44] Jordan Harbinger: have that list memorized. Forgive me. All right. Yeah.

[00:42:47] Michael Regilio: Okay. Any winners? Let's start with the Bundys, and I don't mean Alan Peg here. Ah, bummer.

Good reference. The Bundys are the darlings of the Sovereign Citizen movement. They have twice made national headlines. I'm sure you'll remember that in April, 2014, Clive and Bundy. LED hundreds of armed far right militants in an effort to stop the feds from taking his cattle. Bundy owed a bunch of money for grazing on public lands, but because of his sovereign citizen mindset, he thought he didn't owe nothing to nobody.

I do remember that, and un

[00:43:18] Jordan Harbinger: weirdly, I remember kind of being like, Hey. If it's public land and the cows aren't hurting anything, then who gives a crap? But there was obviously more to the story. I didn't know he was a sovereign kook though. I thought that might have actually been a little bit of a ridiculous government overreach.

But maybe, maybe

[00:43:32] Michael Regilio: there's more to the story. I mean, there's a lot more to that story and I, I actually remember at the time watching it that they were so obsessed with dealing with the sheriff. They would only deal with the sheriff. And this is another sign. Anytime you hear that, that is a sign of sovereign belief.

Only the sheriff is a legitimate authority.

[00:43:49] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, interesting. So the FBI shows up with helicopters and a SWAT team and they're like, lemme talk to the sheriff. And the sheriff's like, what? I'm 68 years old. I'm way, I'm way over my head. Yeah, man. On this. Like maybe talk to the hostage negotiator that's standing here with a bulletproof vest on.

So do they see themselves as cowboys too? I guess this guy literally was a cowboy with the cattle thing.

[00:44:10] Michael Regilio: Yeah, I guess so. I mean, the sheriff thing is weird, but fortunately the feds did not see themselves as, as cowboys and resolved this peacefully. Mm-Hmm. But the Bundys made the news again.

[00:44:19] Jordan Harbinger: I was expecting the FBI to go in there and kill everyone.

Yeah. Because I saw the Waco thing happen and I remember being like that. Was that the plan? And that had kids in the compound. This was a bunch of armed adults. I thought they were gonna get steamrolled but didn't. The next thing he did, I vaguely remember, didn't his sons take over like a park or something?

Or a national, yeah. Park. I can't remember, but it was something like that.

[00:44:41] Michael Regilio: Yeah. In 2016, the son of Clive and Bundy, Amon Bundy led an armed group of sovereign citizens. They took over the Mahler National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon and held it for over a month. The incident resulted in the death of Robert LaVoy Finnegan, a sovereign citizen who became the martyr of the sovereign citizen movement.

[00:45:00] Jordan Harbinger: First of all, all the names in this, sorry, I don't wanna be a dick, but they all sound like characters from an Xbox game called Red Dead Redemption, where you're ex cowboy in 1899. I, I know I'm outing myself as a freaking dork here, but. Robert LaVoy. Finicum sounds like a guy who dies holding a rifle and being like, you ain't getting in my house.

And he's standing in someone else's house at the time. Yeah. Alright, so what do you mean martyr though? I assume he died in a stupid way

[00:45:28] Michael Regilio: that was needless y. You're absolutely right. But there was an HBO documentary series called Hate Thy Neighbor, and it was really telling for me, they did an episode about the sovereign citizens, and when the name LaVoy Finning came up, these sovereign dudes fell silent for a moment, they spoke of him with this.

Deep reverence. They admire him for dying for sovereign beliefs. Finnegan died reaching for a gun that he was presumably going to use on the police.

[00:45:52] Jordan Harbinger: And he's not the only one though. Right. I've read other stories of sovereigns in violent situations completely of their own making because of this stupid crap.

[00:46:01] Michael Regilio: Yeah, I mean, it, it's, it's just gonna get uglier from here. But, uh, aspiring sovereign guru. Jerry Cain and his son Joseph were pulled over in West Memphis, Arkansas for having a self issued license plate. Mm. The traffic stop that followed ended with Joseph, the teenage son, attacking and killing two police officers with an AK 47.

[00:46:22] Jordan Harbinger: That is horrible and clearly the group has a very dangerous side. I also have been pulled over in Arkansas. This has nothing to do with sovereign citizens. I was going a little bit too fast, I guess I was lost as hell. I wasn't even supposed to be down there. I was 19, no, maybe even younger than 19. I might've been like 17.

And I got pulled over and I'm like a kind of a punk, right? I'm wearing like bright colors. I had bleach, blonde dyed hair. It was the nineties. Don't judge me. And this cop pulls me over in the middle of rural Arkansas and he go, he, I unroll the window and he says something to me. I could not understand one thing that he said.

And I knew at that time that I was gonna have to handle this very delicately because, so I said, sir, I'm, I'm having trouble understanding you. And he goes something along the lines of, why are you having trouble understanding me, but not that? And I said, I really, I'm not trying to be a smart ass. I just don't understand what you're.

Saying, and he is like, are you, are you simple boy? And I was like, I think it might be your accent. I've never heard an accent like that. And I had to very just slowly and calmly be like, I don't have a clue what you're saying because your accent is so strong. This wasn't just a southern accent. This was a guy who probably had, despite being a highway patrolman or whatever, had never been outside, at least when he was growing up the like 10 square miles.

He had lived because it sounded, it didn't even sound like English. It was so bizarre and my friend was in the car and he is like, you're gonna get beat up by this cop. He wasn't mad though. He was surprisingly chill, and he spoke really slowly and I think he tried a northern accent and I finally understood that he didn't believe I was the person in my photo because I looked so different with different colored and short hair.

Which also was not promising for me getting out of a traffic ticket, and that was the only ticket I've ever gotten. Wow. Yeah. He just issued it and let us go and said something else that I don't understand, and he was perfectly professional, but I think we, we both were like, wow, that was really lucky. And I said, did you understand him?

My friend was like, I had no idea what he was talking about. So funny. It's like another planet down there. Yeah. Rural Arkansas slash Alabama, whatever, like the accents. It's not what you hear on tv. It's completely different. Yeah. Been there anyway. Back to sovereign citizens, shooting people with machine guns for no reason.

Yeah. Uh, 'cause an AK 47, I think counts as as an automatic weapon.

[00:48:45] Michael Regilio: I believe so. I mean, sovereign citizens are actually considered one of the most dangerous domestic groups in America, which brings us to Oklahoma City. On April 19th, 1995, a bomb detonated at the Alfred p Muro Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.

Oh yeah. He killed 168 people, including 19 children. The carnage of the day is attributed to the sovereign citizen movement, Timothy McVay and his collaborator, Terry Nichols, who described himself as a sovereign citizen. Saw the attack as the opening battle in an armed revolt against the dictatorial and globalist federal government.

[00:49:24] Jordan Harbinger: So I remember this really well because I think McVeigh had either come from or been to a. Michigan and had made contact with this militia in Michigan that was kind of like fat dorks, LARPing, military stuff. Mm-hmm. And also, I remember he kind of, later on when Eminem came to be popular, I was like, is that the guy who blew up the Oklahoma?

And if you look at Timothy McVay. He looks a little bit like Eminem. Wow. Come on. Tell, look, take a look at him and tell me He doesn't look a little bit like Eminem.

[00:49:56] Michael Regilio: I'm agreeing, but I'm thinking that Eminem doesn't deserve that comparison. He doesn't.

[00:50:01] Jordan Harbinger: No. Eminem is by all accounts a very cool Yeah. Like guy who's a good parent.

So I don't wanna smirch what I, yeah, I assume is Slim Shady slash Marshall Mathers Sterling reputation as a non terrorist. But yeah, it's a, this is a terrible incident. Homegrown extremism. Surprise, surprise. I remember there was a daycare center for kids of federal employees who worked in the building, and of course, all the kids were then murdered in That explosion is absolutely terrible.

[00:50:26] Michael Regilio: Yeah. As you know, just as fate would have it, I was in Oklahoma City just last week and visited the memorial. My experience was very colored by this research. It's heartbreaking. Chairs lie in the area where the office building used to stand. Large chairs for the adults killed and small chairs for the children who died.

Most powerful moment for me was standing under the ruins of the original federal building wall, wondering if I was looking at America's past or an indicator of America's future. It's scary. Yeah,

[00:50:56] Jordan Harbinger: it is scary. I hope it's not an indicator of America's future. It's very hard to comprehend that. So much violence comes from theories with absolutely no merit.

Do any of these theories have any legal status? Is there anything that sort of touches on reality but is just misinterpreted?

[00:51:11] Michael Regilio: No. Every time they try to present their arguments, they fall on their face. Most of the arguments they make are so obviously frivolous that courts feel free to reject them without much explanation.

On the occasion that courts have addressed these theories, they easily punch holes in every argument. No sovereign citizen has ever successfully argued their points in a court of law.

[00:51:33] Jordan Harbinger: I'd be surprised if they could successfully argue their points in a bar at one o'clock in the morning. I mean, it's so dumb.

I would ask if this is an America specific problem, but I mentioned Canada before. Is it? Elsewhere.

[00:51:44] Michael Regilio: I mean, sadly it's growing it, there's a rise in Canada, the UK and Australia, Germany, Austria and Italy have their own forms of sovereigns, Russia, France, and Belgium do too. I don't know what all the philosophies are based on, and it would've been too exhausting to discover, but this ideology is on the rise.

[00:52:03] Jordan Harbinger: I gotta wonder what a Russian sovereign citizen's argument is and who they are mouthing off to, because. I don't know if you want to test the Russian police. Yeah. At all. And justice system, like you think the American judges throw your arguments out. Imagine when you're in Putin's courtroom, they don't throw your arguments out.

They throw you out of a window of a window. Yes, exactly. I. What can be done, it seems like aside from some tax violations, these people were mostly harmless until they started murdering cops and children. Like no license plate, not great, but you know, whatever. You're a kook. But then it's like, oh, I have weapons stockpiles in my basement.

[00:52:39] Michael Regilio: To use the old cliche, it is a slippery slope. If you start with the assumption that the government is illegitimate, things are likely to get ugly, and that's just the fact of the matter. Despite what sovereigns believe, we in America are free to hold any beliefs we like. So unfortunately the only solution to their bad ideas is just to promote good ideas.

And after studying sovereign citizens, for me right now, the best idea is to go get a drink. Okay. Me

[00:53:07] Jordan Harbinger: too, man. Thank you. And I say this in lowercase,

[00:53:09] Michael Regilio: Michael. Thank you, lowercase Jordan.

[00:53:12] Jordan Harbinger: Thanks so much for listening to the show. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday toJordan@jordanharbinger.com.

Show notes@jordanharbinger.com as well. Transcripts are in the show notes. Advertisers deals, discounts, and ways to support the show all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Michael at Michael Lio on Instagram, Michael lio comedy.com.

Tour dates up now as well. We'll spell that for you in the show notes in link to it so you don't have to figure that one out on your own. This show is created an association with Podcast one by the way, that is the actual Michael Lio, not the birth certificate, with the name of the corporate entity of Michael Lio.

You'll see the real deal on Instagram and his comedy tour. Just to clarify, for those who are confused, this show is created an association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, mil Campo, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

And if you are, maybe subject, not even subject to the laws of the United States or whatever. So you wouldn't wanna hire me. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism we doled out today.

I have a feeling people are gonna be like, this is what crazy Uncle Frank is talking about, and they're gonna be forwarding it to their family. I'm so confused why he says I'm traveling all the time. I'm so confused why his paper license plates, this is gonna click for a lot of people who are not sovereigns.

They're gonna go, ah, that's the thing that's going on. Anyway, in the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Olympic speed skater Apollo Ono. To

[00:54:59] Clip: me, the power of belief is the real lesson.

I could tap into this unknown reservoir of performance potential. I believed that there was a sixth gear that I had access to. Then everyone else only had five. I truly believed that I was able to use my fear of failure in a way that was so powerful. It became a superpower. But over long enough durations of time, it also became toxic.

We all live as if we have this infinite life, right? We take things for granted. We're grinding and very natural human experience. I, I do this too. Life is this incredible gift and so do not waste it on shit that is like, just like not worthy. It doesn't serve you and who you want to truly become. If there's one message that I can leave to people is that your choices to respond and react to the situations that you're meeting today are solely within your control.

Solely. Whether you are hyper successful and you decide what you want to do next, whether you are failing miserable and you're deeply unhappy, or you feel like you're just floating and you're just like kinda like, ah, everyone seems like they all have it around me. It's all noise. The person that actually creates momentum and progress is the one that doesn't listen to that voice unless it's using it for fuel to actually make progression and positive movement.

Everything that I dedicate myself towards today, my life mission is about how do we create a more open communication channel to create conversation that actually moves and inspires and reminds people of the superpowers that we actually really all have within.

[00:56:36] Jordan Harbinger: For more with Apollo Ono, the most decorated winter athlete in Olympic history.

Check out episode 7 83 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.