1041: Groped In Your Sleep, Betrayal Runs Deep | Feedback Friday

1041: Groped In Your Sleep, Betrayal Runs Deep | Feedback Friday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback. Friday producer, the heel strap on these Crocs, keeping us from slipping as we wade through this flooded basement of life conundrum, Gabriel Mizrahi.

[00:00:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: As long as I'm not the crock itself, I'm happy. That's fine.

[00:00:18] Jordan Harbinger: I think I'm the crock in this belabored metaphor.

Mm-Hmm. Dad vibes and all that.

[00:00:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. So I'm the piece of plastic, keeping the ugliest footwear on earth. Tethered to the foot.

[00:00:26] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah,

[00:00:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: that feels good. That feels right. I like that. That's you to a team. My man

[00:00:30] Jordan Harbinger: on the Jordan Harbinger Show. We decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from former jihadi, undercover agents, Russian spies, cold case homicide investigators, and rocket scientists. This week we had Tarina Shaquille.

This is a woman who ran away from the UK and joined ISIS as one does. Apparently this was a two-parter. Fascinating conversation. I really misjudged her initially. I know this is gonna sound ridiculous. I initially was like, this is gonna be the dumbest person I've met in my life potentially. And she actually turned out to be very insightful and interesting and she did run away when she was quite young.

And so it's just kind of an a funny conversation and an interesting conversation. I highly recommend it. We all had a skeptical Sunday, last Sunday on gold. On Fridays though, we share stories. We take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and apparently compare Gabe and me to hideous but highly functional footwear.

Before we dive in. Quick story. I remembered, uh, while shaving this morning, Gabe actually, so I lived in Belgrade in Serbia and my friend lived in this high rise building and it was a apartment that was usually unoccupied, I think. Like his parents owned it and they didn't live in the country anymore.

Mm-Hmm. And he would come back and visit his grandparents, yada yada. So he just sort of stayed there and it was in a good location, good part of town. And one day I go to visit him and the like front glass, you know, of the building where you walk in is just blown up. Whoa. Like blown out. There's like smoke.

I'm like, did you have a fire? Can I go in? Clearly I can see the stairway is still lit. You can kind of walk in, but there's cardboard laid out on the floor and glass everywhere that somebody had like swept to one side and not actually cleaned up and blood all over the cardboard, like soaked through the cardboard.

A door on the left right when you walk in was boarded up and the wall had a hole in it.

[00:02:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Damn, these are great visuals. Wow.

[00:02:25] Jordan Harbinger: Seriously, something had gone wrong in this place and

[00:02:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: I was like, oh my God. What Doug Lyman movie Are we in? That's crazy.

[00:02:29] Jordan Harbinger: Well, I thought, who blew up this place? Or like, there must have been a hell of a fire.

Maybe the boilers in there or something and it exploded. Furnace, whatever. What do I know? Where's the blood from though? Right? So I go up there and I'm like, so you want to tell me what happened in your entryway? He didn't. He's like, yeah, I didn't give you any warning. I wanted to see what your, your reaction would be.

So it turns out that whatever the federal police, military, police, I think they're called Maia or whatever, in Serbia. They had kicked in and raided this apartment because the guy who lived there was an arms dealer and he had rocket propelled grenades, explosives, automatic weapons, all kinds of stuff. And the place, he didn't live there, I guess, but the place was guarded by a couple of guard dogs.

Oh. And that's what the blood was from. Oh. So they raided this place. The dogs attacked. They killed the dogs. Geez. And then they just like, they bled everywhere and it was really kind of horrifying. But they showed some of the inventory they took from this place. Let's just say you would not want this stuff in your high rise just sitting there.

[00:03:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a real Serbian story, my friend. All your Serbian stories are very, are very stereotypically what the rest of the world thinks about Serbia.

[00:03:37] Jordan Harbinger: A hundred percent. Well, like if you, if you tell me in LA that an arms dealer gets arrested, you're like, oh, he was eating at a five star restaurant enjoying the proceeds from being an arms dealer.

Sure. Not like, oh, they caught the stash where he keeps all the rocket propelled grenades that he sells to, like terrorists or whatever. Or gangsters. You don't think like the actual goods are in this dude's place over in home B Hills. Mm-hmm. Right. That's what this was absolutely insane. Uh, I'll never forget that one.

Anyway, that's not relevant to anything we're gonna talk about here on feedback Friday. So what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

[00:04:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabriel. I attend a secondary school in Ghana that teaches both students with normal learning capabilities and special needs children who are autistic, deaf, blind, and so on.

I. In an attempt to bridge the gap between these two groups and to stop discrimination, the school decided to integrate some of those special needs children, primarily the stronger deaf students into the mainstream classrooms. With the help of sign language interpreters alongside teachers, this new development made me a lot more fascinated with American Sign Language, so I learned it, which has allowed me to interact with the deaf students more closely.

I'm also pretty smart, so I was able to help some of these students with topics they had trouble understanding.

[00:04:48] Jordan Harbinger: I just gotta say that is very cool, and it says a lot about you. You might be a born educator or translator or linguist. You're clearly called to this work, and it's just awesome. What a unique experience that is.

[00:04:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: One of these students is a guy I'd like to call Charlie. I particularly admired Charlie because he genuinely enjoyed learning something new and never allowed his disability to deter him. I really admired his tenacity. One day Charlie came up to me looking nervous with a confession to make. He told me that one day, while most of the students and teachers were out playing sports, he and another deaf guy, one who is rumored to have been expelled for molesting other younger special needs kids, saw me sleeping alone in the classroom, and this other guy pressured Charlie into groping me.

He went into detail about how the guy fondled me through my shirt and forced him to do the same and how I slept through it. He apologized profusely and said his conscience had been eating away at him since I had been so nice to him. I didn't really feel angry at him because he didn't seem like the type.

I never reported it. Charlie doesn't seem like a pervert, and the other guy's no longer at the school, and Charlie was thankful also, one of my friends said that I would probably be blamed for sleeping through what happened to me. Hmm, okay.

[00:05:59] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah,

[00:06:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: and since it's been about two years and I don't even remember it, there wouldn't be concrete evidence that it occurred, but I've been avoiding Charlie because I feel weird about what happened.

I also feel really guilty because I've been able to help him improve in his studies. Ever since then, I've had trouble sleeping outside my home or around people who are not my immediate family. Even people I thought I trusted, I tried meditation, music, and other things to relax me, but they don't really seem to work.

I can't go to therapy to figure it out. Since my parents aren't that financially stable, how do I convince my mind I'm not gonna get hurt before I go to sleep? How do I put my feelings aside to help Charlie? Signed trying to flee this painful memory so I can get some Zs and hopefully help Charlie.

[00:06:45] Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy.

Okay. Well, first of all, I'm so very sorry that Charlie and this other kid did this awful thing to you. It's violating, it's disturbing, it's wrong, and obviously you didn't deserve any of it. The fact that these students you've helped in such a beautiful way turned around and assaulted you, and that this event has clearly left a real mark on you.

Honestly, it makes me pretty angry, but it also kind of breaks my heart, right? I'm, I'm just very sorry that you're struggling because of it. We wanted to run all of this by an expert. So we reached out to Dr. Aaron Margolis, clinical psychologist and friend of the show. I'm also known to the people who know me the best as the duck.

And the first thing Dr. Margolis zeroed in on is that both of your questions are basically getting at the same thing, which is, how do I not feel my feelings? And Dr. Margolis opinion is that that's not gonna work. Everything you're describing, the trouble sleeping, the feeling unsafe, the shame, the avoidance, these are all textbook trauma symptoms.

So, Dr. Margolis wanted to be clear, let's not label this as some aberrant weird experience that you just need to get over. This is actually trauma and it sounds like you have a little bit of PTSD. If we label this experience correctly, then Dr. Margolis view healing from this is really about honoring these feelings and responses you're having, which given what happened to you, are completely valid, appropriate justified, and having compassion and grace for yourself as you work through them.

Now, that's gonna be a much more effective route than just trying not to have this experience. So you can move on. I'm gonna quote Dr. Margolis directly here. You cannot talk or think yourself out of having feelings. This is not a matter of convincing your mind to just not believe something,

[00:08:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: right? But Dr.

Margolis also completely understood the impulse to wanna skip over the part where you have to feel the feelings, because feeling the feelings sucks. It hurts, it's painful, it's scary, it's overwhelming. So of course, you wanna skip to the part where you feel better and you can just, you know, take a nap.

And if there were a way to do that, Dr. Margolis would love to give that to you, but it just doesn't exist. The progress you're looking for. It generally only happens through some form of processing. The experience therapy is obviously one of the most common and efficient ways to do that work, but there are so many other resources and experiences out there for you.

Maybe there's a counselor at your school you could talk to. Maybe there's a clergy person in your community. Maybe there's some kind of community center in your area with sliding scale or free therapy or free support groups for people who have experienced trauma. Stuff like that. You could also buy a book on recovering from trauma and do some of the exercises in the book on your own.

So it's not like the only way to get better is to go to therapy. There's more than one way to process an event. So let's talk about Charlie Jordan. I find this kid complicated.

[00:09:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, he's an interesting character, but might also just be like a typical kid. I don't know. It's hard to tell.

[00:09:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: First of all, he's deaf and our friend here helped him, and it sounds like that relationship was very meaningful and very fulfilling to both of them before this happened.

[00:09:36] Jordan Harbinger: Right? He genuinely enjoyed learning with her. She really admired his tenacity. It sounds like a beautiful relationship before he did this thing.

[00:09:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Which of course makes this situation even more confusing because I think our friend here is kind of seeing him in a black and white way as either a good guy or a bad guy.

But this situation introduces a lot more nuance. There's a whole gray area here about how she views him after what he did. I think it's very possible that he is both good and bad inside of him, like all people, and you have to hold those two side by side that's challenging and uncomfortable and makes this whole process even more complex.

It's hard to address that kind of thing within yourself. And at the same time, Charlie clearly has a conscience. He doesn't sound like a total monster like the other kid who might have slash

[00:10:19] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah,

[00:10:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: probably did molest and take advantage of other disabled and vulnerable children. Now, that obviously doesn't make what Charlie did.

Okay. But the fact that he came to you and said, I did this thing. I feel awful. I have to come clean. I wanna make this right. That probably does put Charlie in a different category and probably speaks to his character and probably to a lot of the qualities that you responded to in him. As Dr. Margolis pointed out, Charlie is deaf.

He's not intellectually disabled. He's not cognitively impaired. His disability is not one that makes it hard for him to know what is right and what is wrong,

[00:10:52] Jordan Harbinger: and it doesn't change the fact that he did this awful thing, right? I mean, his intention might not have been to harm her, but you know, that was very much the outcome and the outcome matters.

[00:10:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: So I can appreciate why you have some compassion for Charlie. I kind of do too. And he did something that violated you, that dishonored your relationship and that clearly traumatized you. So because getting rid of these feelings about Charlie is not going to work, Dr. Margolis wanted to invite you to ask yourself, can I have these feelings and be uncomfortable in the way I'm uncomfortable, and can I hold this desire to help Charlie?

Alongside that. In other words, can you do both? And if you can't do both, can that be okay too? Can it be okay that you have these difficult feelings about Charlie right now? Can you give yourself permission to not be okay with somebody who literally assaulted you? Why do you feel like you have to be okay with him at all?

[00:11:40] Jordan Harbinger: Right? That's obviously very difficult for her, but as Dr. Margolis pointed out, you are not obligated to help someone who harmed you. Her insight here was it's not your job to assuage Charlie's guilt by acting as if he didn't do a bad thing or forgiving him before you're ready. It's not your job to mitigate his compunction,

[00:11:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: and it might also be worth asking yourself why you feel compelled to continue helping Charlie given what he did, because look helping him.

I'm sure that's partly informed by your empathy and your passion and your very obvious investment in students like him, which is so beautiful. Wanting to, as you put it, put your feelings aside so you can help Charlie. That might also be a way to suppress, discharge, or, you know, otherwise bypass the very valid, appropriate response that you're having to what he and this other kid did to you.

[00:12:26] Jordan Harbinger: Look, I appreciate that Charlie came clean to her, but that doesn't mean she has to forgive him and this kid, whether he meant to or not, he caused her harm, and one of the consequences of what he did can be that he just doesn't get to enjoy certain benefits from the person he harmed. Right? Also, Dr.

Margolis pointed out that you can forgive someone and still not keep them in your life. You can forgive someone and still have boundaries. So we're not necessarily saying you need to nurse a grudge for the rest of your life, but you can forgive someone and still pull back or redefine the relationship.

[00:12:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: There's one more thing we need to touch on here, Jordan, which is the fact that our friend here feels weird and guilty about all of this. These kids assaulted her. She feels guilty.

[00:13:04] Jordan Harbinger: Well, that's very telling, but also, isn't that very common with sexual assault?

[00:13:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: It is. And like she said, she didn't really feel angry at him because he didn't seem like the type Mm-Hmm.

Which is an interesting comment because it's like, well, he is the type on some level, I mean, apparently scoreboard, right? Or what kind of type he is, is irrelevant because what he did is what matters. She also never reported the incident. She had a lot of compassion and understanding for Charlie, and she said he was thankful.

So again, it seems to me like in so many ways she has put his needs first and then she gets this really unsettling message from one of her friends, which is that if she ever did report this, she would probably be blamed for sleeping through what happened to her.

[00:13:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Well that jumped out obviously at both of us.

I mean, if that is an invalidation victim blaming, I really don't know what is like that's ridiculous,

[00:13:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: even if that's not actually what would happen. I'm a little stunned to hear that. Shocked. I don't know if that speaks to Ghanaian culture. I don't know if it speaks to the way that this particular school works or how they feel about our friend here, but I have to imagine that messages like that.

Especially if you've received them your whole life must make it hard to go, someone did something really bad to me. I'm angry about it. I'm not okay. I need help. I'm gonna speak up or stand up for myself, or redefine the relationship. And when they're combined with other values, like being of service to other people, not being a bothered anyone, maybe prioritizing men in general.

They might create some unusual responses to a trauma like this, including guilt and including a strange hyper compassion for your assailant.

[00:14:34] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, great point. And that's another thing I would encourage her to unpack the roots of this guilt, of this stubborn empathy for a guy who hurt her, which seems to be coming at her own expense and how her environment is shaping her experience of all this.

All great things to think about, read about, talk about with safe and trusted people. So I hope you get to do that, friend. I know you were asking us how to move past this, but as with most stories like this, this is really about moving through and moving through Always begins with making a lot of room for all of your feelings and finding the people and resources you need to process them.

And if you do that, I think in time you'll find that the trauma symptoms will quiet down, and my hope is that you get to a place where you can sleep more easily. But more importantly, my hope is that you get to a place where you can feel your feelings more easily, have more access to all these parts of yourself, which is crucial and which you deserve.

We're sending you a big hug and we're wishing you all the best. Big thanks to Dr. Margolis for her wisdom and advice. Dr. Margolis is seeing patients in Los Angeles and virtually throughout California. You can learn more about her and her approach@drerinmargolis.com. And now it's time to grope some great deals on the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Transcend. You've probably heard me brave about all sorts of tools and techniques that I use to stay at the top of my game, of course. But today I wanna share something that's been a game changer for me for a while now. My experience with Transcend, I.

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Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now. Back to feedback Friday.

[00:18:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I've been fortunate to break into the emerging online sports betting and casino industry early, which has allowed me to six x my income over the last five years. Wow. Recently I leveraged my networking skills thanks to six minute networking, to reconnect with a mentor for my previous job who offered me a part-time director role.

Now I find myself in the unique position of holding two six figure director level jobs, one in marketing and one in operations simultaneously.

[00:18:46] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. That's amazing, man. Well done. This is the greatest organic six minute networking plug that I've heard in a while, so thanks for doing my promo for me.

[00:18:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Jordan actually, ghost wrote this letter and sent it in under a fake email address.

I just want everyone to know that

[00:18:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this is like those LinkedIn stories that are clearly made up to sell an e-course or something. Exactly. Those posts always end with agree, but no, even, even I am not that good.

[00:19:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: These two jobs are in the same industry, but they are not in competing markets or states based on legislation, and they will not be in direct competition anytime soon.

I'm fully remote and I'm currently able to juggle all of my responsibilities pretty well. Job one occupies me from 9:00 AM to 2:00 PM and I work job two from 7:00 AM to 9:00 AM and again from 2:00 PM to 5:00 PM Wow. I effectively delegate tasks, meet all my deadlines, and hit my KPI goals. I still work only Monday through Friday and can pick up my 4-year-old son from preschool every day and have dinner with him and my wife every evening.

This isn't killing me from a personal standpoint either.

[00:19:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, my man, you are killing it. This is a case study and being disciplined and effective so far. I love it.

[00:19:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: The second job with my mentor is aware of my situation and is okay with it. I suspect that his plan is to poach me once the acquisition at my first job is complete and I receive my stock payout.

In the meantime, I wanna leverage these opportunities to enhance my public professional profile. I believe this combination of skills qualifies me for future C-level opportunities. What obligations do I have to disclose my dual employment to my first employer? How should I handle my LinkedIn profile and an upcoming industry conference where both companies are gonna be present?

Why does it feel like I'm having a public affair? Do I need to come clean to maintain my professionalism and integrity? Signed a double director troubled by the specter of being too good a connector in this tight knit sector.

[00:20:34] Jordan Harbinger: Great questions. You've definitely gotten yourself into a bit of a pickle here, but what a pickle to be in.

Huh? This is the definition of a champagne problem. So look, it feels like you're having a public affair because you're having a public affair. You're too time in these two jobs, and you're doing it in a way that based on what you've shared anyway, sounds like you're honoring your commitments and delivering on your expectations.

The issue is only one of your mistresses knows what's really going on.

[00:20:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. He's like ethically, non-monogamous with one job and he's cheating in the other one.

[00:21:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yep. And that's a little dicey, morally, practically. So do you have an obligation to come clean to your first employer? Well, huh. Okay. I'm of two minds here.

Gabe, on one hand, I wanna say yes, he does. They hired him first. He then went and took this second job without telling them, and they deserve to know. Also these jobs are in the same industry, a highly competitive and innovative industry. I know these two companies are in different markets, they're in different states.

They don't directly compete, but there might still be some issues here around proprietary information, trade secrets, all of that,

[00:21:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: right? Like if he saw a roadmap or something in a meeting over a company, one saying that they were gonna, I don't know, launch some new sports betting product that competed with company two in 12 months, that would be material information

[00:21:42] Jordan Harbinger: for sure.

And what is he gonna do? Just sit on that. Pretend he didn't hear it.

[00:21:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. To be fair, maybe, maybe this guy is just like so disciplined. He is like a locked box.

[00:21:50] Jordan Harbinger: Hey, maybe. And so maybe his character and his policies around this stuff are a big factor in all this. But I just, I have a hard time believing that he wouldn't go tell the mentor who got him this second job.

The mentor who wants to poach him and help him rise up and make him rich, that he wouldn't share something useful like that. That's gonna be super highly valuable. I'm gonna be honest, I I probably would share that if I were in his shoes. Right. That's why there are rules against this stuff. Right. But look, even if there really isn't any overlap between the two companies, company one could make that argument for sure.

So I'm not convinced that they'd take this news very well,

[00:22:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: especially since he would now be revealing it after the fact. Oh, yeah. Long after the fact. So this is like a big secret.

[00:22:28] Jordan Harbinger: On the other hand, he's clearly delivering at his first job, he delegates tasks, he's meeting all his deadlines, he's hitting his KPIs.

It sounds to me like he's doing right by both companies essentially. So I'm also kinda like, eh, what they don't know won't hurt him. You know? I mean, yes, it's against the rules, but that's already been done. So, I don't know, slippery slope and all that.

[00:22:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: I hear you. There's another thing to consider, which is that Company one is apparently in the process of getting acquired, so, right.

The company must be doing pretty well and it sounds like he might be leaving soon.

[00:22:54] Jordan Harbinger: Right. I, it's weird though, wouldn't he have a non-compete of who knows? Anyway, so how much longer is this really gonna be an issue? Is it really worth compromising his standing at this company and this significant stock payout by coming clean at this point?

I'm not sure

[00:23:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: unless they find out on their own, which could be a real problem.

[00:23:09] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so that brings us to his other question, which is whether to post both jobs on his LinkedIn before he goes to that conference, which I, I mean she,

[00:23:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: come on man. That's the guy from the Wire, right? Yes. Oh, chef's kiss of a soundbite there. That was amazing. Yeah. This conference where, let us remember, both companies are gonna be in attendance, right? The stakes are very high. Yes.

[00:23:33] Jordan Harbinger: This is like a sitcom scene where the mistress and or like the, the other girl is in the same scene and he's avoiding them and pretending he's on a date with both of them at the same time.

So ridiculous. How are you gonna do that?

[00:23:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly. This feels like the end of the Devil wears Prado, where Anne Hathaway goes to Paris and then she has to figure out like which master to serve, except instead of high fashion It's like NBA props.

[00:23:54] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. The outfits are definitely worse, but the stakes are probably even higher.

Exactly. So my gut is telling me I put this self-promotion thing on hold for a minute. You are playing with fire. I love your ambition. I definitely want you to make the most of these jobs so you can land a great C-level position one day, but I just don't know how you post these two jobs without risking your bosses at Company one.

Seeing the update and going, what the hell? You're working for our competitor and you didn't tell us, and then it's gonna be even worse.

[00:24:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Although, isn't he always gonna have that problem? Yes. I mean, at some point he's gonna post about these two jobs and somebody from company one is gonna find out.

[00:24:26] Jordan Harbinger: Right?

But if he posts that after his payout, after he leaves, the stakes are way lower. And also, you know, he could. Probably fudge that a little bit, right? I don't, I hate that I'm recommending that, but like, you know,

[00:24:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: come on. No, you're right. Unless they come after him or claw back his payout or something like that, but, but I don't know.

I think that's probably pretty unlikely.

[00:24:44] Jordan Harbinger: Not legal advice here from Jordan and Gabe on the show today. Certainly not. My strong feeling is to keep your head down and not self-promote too much until you make your next big move. You have a lot more to gain right now by keeping things on an even keel and continuing to do well in your two jobs than by publicizing what a rockstar you are.

The conference will always be there next year and the year after that. And you can always reach out to those people directly on LinkedIn and slowly start building those relationships without a big splashy announcement. And yes, I realize I'm contradicting myself a little bit here because I do think that the only way to truly maintain your professionalism and integrity is to come clean.

I also feel that in many ways you are being a professional by delivering real value to both companies and hitting your goals and that in your career, as opposed to say, your marriage, you have a little more license to look out for, number one, especially given these unique circumstances. Like your wife isn't going to lay you off when the economy turns down right?

But a job will. So it's not quite the same level of commitment here. That said, from here on out, I would be totally transparent about stuff like this. With future employers. Getting away with this is making me clench things up that you don't wanna know about and you don't wanna live like that because as you're finding out, even when you reap the rewards, it causes a lot of stress and anxiety to keep a secret like this.

There's a world where this might have been okay with Company one. If you'd said, Hey, look, this other company approached me about this really exciting role. It's totally different from the work I'm doing with you. I'm confident I can still deliver on all my commitments to you. I've developed a system, but I don't feel comfortable accepting this job without talking to you about it first.

So can we see if we can make this work? Although maybe I'm being naive, maybe they would never go for that for reasons that are probably pretty legit, and that's exactly why you didn't tell them. So I guess this ultimately comes down to your personal values around integrity and transparency and to your comfort with risk.

But I'd start thinking about how you'd handle things if Company One ever did find out. 'cause you don't wanna be caught with your pants down. You need a plan in place. But just to zoom out here, you're clearly a rockstar. You're obviously very talented. I'm excited about your future. If you balance that ambition with more communication, a little bit more integrity, I think you're gonna succeed on all levels.

So good luck. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise, use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or you're missing your abusive alcoholic, love bombing X, whatever's got you staying up at night lately.

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You can sign up at Jordan harbinger.com/news. Alright, what's next?

[00:27:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. 10 years ago, my best friend's cousin's boyfriend came to the United States from Chile. Let's call him Sam. In Chile. Sam worked for a dentist's office and he works for one here too. But Sam used to live next door to me, and he would also see random patients and treat them in his living room, doing cleanings, fillings, even putting braces on people.

Wow. Then recently I found out that he has his own practice in a city known for people who are not of legal status and don't have health insurance. It's a full on dental office with every tool and machine A regular dentist would have. He charges people cash at a reduced cost. Wow. Mind you, he is not a dentist, doesn't even have a degree from Chile, but he's working on people twice a week.

He pulled three of my landlord's teeth and even gave her injections for pain.

[00:28:16] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. This is dicey and very risky, but also I'm like, the balls on this guy. Truly, jeez.

[00:28:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: This is like old timey dentistry where you would just watch some guy with mutton chops, do it a few times and then you're like, I guess I'm qualified to stick a needle in this guy's mouth.

Do you have a bottle of whiskey and pliers? Truly, you're good.

[00:28:32] Jordan Harbinger: You're good to go.

[00:28:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: How does he know how to do all of this?

[00:28:34] Jordan Harbinger: That's my question. I was, I was wondering the same thing. He must've apprenticed with a dentist back in Chile or with some other unlicensed person and he just learned by watching and then he What started doing it, it's crazy,

[00:28:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: but also he's an orthodontist.

He's doing braces. Oh, why not? And cleanings and surgery dude is a jack of all illegal trades. Yeah, sure. So she goes on. Ever since I learned about all this, I've been trying to find out where his dental practices to expose him. Neither he nor my friend or landlord will tell me exactly where this office is.

Okay. I've thought about following him, buying a burner phone and texting him as a potential client, filing a report with a dental board, even contacting a tip line from a local news station. Am I right about this or am I wrong for trying to expose and get him in trouble? Should I let him help people in need who don't have the means to see a real dentist signed watching in shock as people go flock to the sky on the block, who's not a real doc?

[00:29:26] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Fascinating. Sam, the street dentist from Santiago pulling teeth and installing veneers for a third of the price. So wild man. So, no, you're not overreacting. This is definitely a huge concern. We did some quick homework and there are some very real risks of going to an unlicensed dentist, and the most obvious one, of course, is inaccurate diagnoses, substandard care, badly performed procedures, which can lead to inappropriate treatment, nerve damage, excessive bleeding, improper healing, shoddy work.

The list goes on and on. There's also a higher risk of infections at these places, right? HIV hepatitis. Bacterial endocarditis. These are not things you play with.

[00:30:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, these street dentists often use substandard materials to keep costs down. Sometimes they're even counterfeit, apparently. And sure that can result in allergic reactions, degradation.

It could even result in total failure of the dental work.

[00:30:16] Jordan Harbinger: And then these people, they don't tend to offer good follow-up care, right? Because they can't. So patients often have to deal with the problems on their own,

[00:30:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: right? And then if something goes wrong, which apparently it often does, they have no legal recourse because these practitioners operate outside of the law, so they're not held to the same standards and regulations.

And that means patients don't have any protection or compensation for malpractice.

[00:30:35] Jordan Harbinger: So what Sam is doing, it's very risky, and it might be putting people in real danger. Now, who knows? Maybe he's some kind of savant. Maybe he apprenticed with the best dentist in Chile, and maybe he's weirdly rigorous and precise and is surprisingly good at all this stuff.

But if he didn't go to school, if he's not licensed, if he's not practicing in a safe facility, then he is being reckless. Even if there is something kind of noble about offering his services at a discount to people in need, but he's only offering his services at a discount because he's not a real dentist.

So, no, I don't feel you're wrong for trying to report him as long as you're doing it to protect people. Like this is not some guy giving haircuts in his basement. He's like, I'm not really a licensed cosmetologist, folks. Come on man. He's, he's giving people injections. Right. Look, as long as you're doing this to protect people, it's not just 'cause you're taking some weird pleasure and screwing this guy over.

Although he really is digging his own grave and frankly could be digging the graves of others with his dental care. There's a part of me that feels bad for this guy. 'cause he's probably really just hustling to survive in America without credentials, without education. And to his credit, this is quite a hustle.

I almost admire it. Okay. But he, like I said before, he is absolutely playing with fire here and he could be potentially hurting people in a very real way. Gabe, you're a psycho when it comes to your dental hygiene, what say you, what do you think about going to get a, a root canal from a guy in a basement in

[00:31:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Gilroy?

Uh, first of all, I would never need a root canal because, well, I am, as you said, a psycho, but my teeth hurt listening to this story. I physically can feel them tingling. I'm also thinking about the fact that Sam is her, what did she say? Best friend's, cousin's boyfriend, right? So, right. This is not some random person she stumbled across on Craigslist who's like, Hey, I'll pull your teeth for like 40 bucks outta the back of my adventure wagon.

Come on down. Like, she has a relationship with this guy. She used to live next to him, right? So part of me is going, can you just go to Sam directly and tell him that you know what he's up to and you're deeply concerned about it for all of these very valid reasons we just talked about, and you're giving him a chance to close up shop.

And if he won't, then you're gonna have to report him. Then at least you would be giving him a chance to do the right thing. And you would be looking out for a guy who's probably a decent person who's trying to make a living while also helping people in need. And if he refuses to stop, then you won't feel as guilty about reporting him.

[00:32:48] Jordan Harbinger: That's a fair point. I don't know if this guy's gonna quit. Mm-hmm. Right. He's got quite a moneymaking hustle going on here. Mm-Hmm. He might say he will and they'll just open up the shop somewhere else. 'cause that's kind of what I would do if I was in his shoes. He's gonna take his adventure wagon two towns over and just start all over again.

[00:33:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, even if she succeeds in putting Sam out of business, there will still be countless street dentists practicing out there. So it's not like this problem goes away,

[00:33:09] Jordan Harbinger: right? But this is one piece of the problem she can help solve. That same argument sort of reminds me of like, I saw a company dumping trash in the river, but I didn't do anything because lots of companies dump trash in the river.

So if I, even if I report them and they go outta business, other companies are still gonna do it. I mean, come on. Fair. Maybe part of this conversation with Sam is why are you doing this? How are you doing this? How confident are you that you're doing it well? And how many problems are you encountering in your work?

Because that actually matters too.

[00:33:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Look, if this guy is mostly just scaling teeth and doing fillings and slapping braces on teenagers that he'd made with a 3D printing machine, where they do 95% of the labor now and it's all like 80% affected, I don't know. I'm slightly less worried. But if he's regularly taking X-rays and pulling teeth and doing injections, and then giving people bootleg amoxicillin from Tijuana or no amoxicillin at all, that is a very different story.

[00:33:59] Jordan Harbinger: Right. I'm kind of afraid that's what this is, because he has all these tools and he removed three of her landlord's teeth. Right? And he's doing injections for that, right? He's not just scraping plaque off people's teeth and handing 'em a travel sized crest on their way out. Okay. The dude is doing straight surgery.

When I was in college, my friend Alex Russian guy, immigrant, he had a toothache and I was like, oh man, you gotta go to the dentist. And he's like, it's too expensive. I'm going to this Russian guy. He's older guy from Soviet Union and he's got a dental chair in his basement. He didn't say he's a dentist, he said he has a dental chair in his basement.

[00:34:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: He's the chair. Yeah. That's all you need. Apparently.

[00:34:32] Jordan Harbinger: You know, the guy from saw continue and like he went there and he had the teeth extracted by this old Russian, Soviet Union guy who apparently was a, probably a dentist in, in Russia that was a little bit ambiguous. Mm-Hmm. But the guy didn't have the right stuff.

Right. He couldn't just buy, I don't know what is it, Novocaine? Yeah. Or whatever. 'cause it's a controlled substance. So he just basically did it by giving him vodka, getting him drunk. Oh, are you serious? Strapping him to this chair and removing a tooth and then like giving the guy water. And when he woke up sending him home, that was it.

Ah, geez. Okay. And he did this multiple times. This is a college student. I felt really bad that he had to do this, but it's, that's just sort of the reality of the situation. We found it funny at the time, but looking back it's kind of horrific that he actually went through with that.

[00:35:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, you're like cool cleaning.

You're getting in marathon, man, bro. That's terrifying. Yeah,

[00:35:21] Jordan Harbinger: well, I mean, especially an extraction, you know, it wasn't like I need to go to a hygienist and this guy used to be one, right? So he's got some tools in his basement and he washes him. This is like, you know, the dude cut his gums out and took a tooth out.

So that's what I do. I talk to this guy first. Go from there dark. Jordan says to use the burner phone and get the address of the place first. Because if he bulks when you're like, Hey, I just wanna know how you're doing this and is it safe? If the guy's like, no way, I'm not talking to you. I know you're onto me.

You're gonna turn me in. Then you've already got the goods, right? His guard's not gonna be up. 'cause if you try to do this first and then you try to get his address, his guard's gonna be up. It might be a lot harder. Anyway. I feel like I say this all the time, but it just, it sucks. We live in a country where some people have to go to a janky ass street dentist because they can't afford a real one.

That makes me really sad. I love America, as many people point out in their emails. I'm too patriotic sometimes, but it is total BS that people have to resort to this. It just doesn't make sense to me. And look, I also don't think that those people should be subject to a potentially dangerous practitioner either.

So it's a real conundrum, but maybe a conversation will help resolve some of this. And hey, thank you for a fascinating glimpse into a world I've never really thought about and for giving Gabe dental hygiene nightmares. Mm-hmm. For potentially the rest of his life. Yep. So good luck. You know what's better than a back alley root canal.

Gabriel Find products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

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Now, back to feedback Friday. Okay, what's next?

[00:39:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 36-year-old woman, and about a year and a half ago, my military husband walked into the kitchen, said he didn't love me anymore, and asked for a divorce. I was blindsided In the six months leading up to that, we had moved to a new city from overseas, bought a house, bought two vehicles, adopted a new puppy, started trying for kids, and went on our long overdue honeymoon for our five year anniversary.

He still told me that he loved me every day, did thoughtful gestures and kept up all appearances of a loving husband. I didn't see a divorce looming, and we hadn't had any discussions about any divorce caliber issues. I was devastated and confused. He agreed to try couples counseling after starting individual therapy.

Three weeks after the bomb dropped, I found out I was pregnant. When I told him. The first thing he said was how it was gonna complicate the split. No support whatsoever. He said over and over that keeping the baby was my decision. But he offered three choices. He takes full custody. I have full custody with only child support, or I end the pregnancy.

[00:40:30] Jordan Harbinger: Oof. What a painful conversation that must have been

[00:40:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: given that his military career would have him move in a few years. He figured that I would raise the kid completely alone in my home state. I ultimately decided to end the pregnancy. I was only six weeks along and didn't think I could handle it with my life already in pieces, and it didn't seem right to bring a child into that situation and tie us together forever.

[00:40:52] Jordan Harbinger: I get it. I would've understood if you kept the baby too, but I get it.

[00:40:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: I still go through bouts of regret and shame over this. Now I'm afraid that I'm almost too old to have kids of my own. The night after I ended the pregnancy, I walked downstairs to find my husband with his pants down in front of his webcam with his mistress swing.

She's a woman from his amateur writer circle who lives in a different state, and she 1000% knew that he was married. He even introduced us once and he had told her about my pregnancy. He had been texting and video chatting with her on his way to and from work after I was asleep or after I left for work for months.

Apparently, they spent a lot of time together alone when she visited our city for a writer's conference. Damn,

[00:41:33] Jordan Harbinger: this scene is, it's cheaper than a Chilean root canal, Gabriel.

[00:41:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's gonna be a thing. Yep. I felt so duped for believing that he wanted to go to couples counseling and suddenly knew why he didn't want me to be pregnant.

He told me once that what he did wasn't cheating since he already didn't love me when he was doing it. Oh,

[00:41:52] Jordan Harbinger: oh boy, man, that's rough. What a justification. Just imagine what kind of father this a-hole would've been. Yikes.

[00:41:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Fast forward to today. I occasionally open the dating apps to dip my toe back in that pool, but turn them off a week or two later.

I just don't want to even try anymore. Given everything I went through being betrayed so ruthlessly in every possible way by my ex-husband, I still struggle to move on. I struggle with trusting anyone and fully believe I will always be waiting for the other shoe to drop. I've been in therapy for over a year, but I fear being cheated on and betrayed again.

I feel like cheating is so easy to do and conceal these days. Any advice on how I can move past all this trauma and open myself up to dating and possibly love again? How can I possibly trust anyone again? Are there any good guys with integrity left in the world, signed, swiping right when I'm still wound tight after that fateful night.

[00:42:47] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. What a story. Well, again, I am so very sorry that you went through all this with your ex being cheated on. It's never happened to me, but it sounds absolutely brutal. Being cheated on after being lied to and fed a certain narrative about your relationship, that's almost worse. And I'm sure it made everything more shocking and more painful.

And then to terminate a pregnancy in the middle of all that. You've just been through a lot here, my friend, and it, look Gabe, it's interesting. We clearly have a theme on today's episode, this whole question of how do I get over my trauma and arrive at the point where I wanna arrive at?

[00:43:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point. It wasn't intentional, but isn't that interesting?

[00:43:23] Jordan Harbinger: I think it's a very normal and universal thing. Mm-Hmm. But like Dr. Margolis said, if that were possible, we'd all be doing it. But unfortunately that's just not how it works. So my first thought for you, inspired by our friend from question one is to slow down, give yourself more time and grace to move through this chapter and process all these feelings.

I hear you that it is not happening as fast as you'd like. I know it's hard to still feel on edge, distrustful scared, but again, you have been through a very intense experience here. This is trauma, several traumas. It's only been a year and a half, and I know that seems like a long time, but given how intense this was, it's also not.

So my strong feeling is that you need to be kinder to yourself. You need to be more patient. You need to just allow these feelings to exist. I wouldn't try to suppress them or wish them away. I also wouldn't put too much stock in them. Just make room for them. Accept them. Talk about them in therapy. See what they're trying to tell you.

I promise you, if you didn't need to be feeling these feelings right now, you wouldn't be feeling them. They're still working themselves out. You're still working them out, and that's important. You'll know when it feels doable and safe to start dating again in a real way.

[00:44:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: I totally agree. I also think she still has some work to do in working through the bouts of regret and shame that she has about the abortion.

I'm with you, Jordan. I think she had some very valid reasons for making that call. I. I'm worried about the situation that that child would've been born into, how that decision would've tied her to a very painful ex-husband in some form. But still, she has this residual conflict. She's ashamed. She's worried about, you know, her window for having children, which I completely understand.

Those are complicated feelings. Obviously, I would encourage you to bring them into therapy, and I do hope that that space has been helpful for you. But if it hasn't been helpful for you, like if what you're saying is that you're not making the progress that you were hoping for in any of these departments with your therapist.

That would also be a great thing to flag with your therapist so you guys can figure out why, and then you can decide if you need something more.

[00:45:19] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. My second thought is you might not be a hundred percent healed and comfortable before you do start dating. I think it's more likely that you'll be healed enough to open yourself up to new people.

My only hope for you is that one day you find someone who is excited about you, who meets you with curiosity and compassion and honesty, who's basically very different from your ex-husband. And I also hope that the relationship that's waiting for you out there, maybe even the relationships, those will help you rewrite a lot of these fears and anxieties and help you put them to bed.

You probably already know this. The real healing, the best healing it happens in a relationship. It might be with a therapist, it might be with a close friend, with a partner, but there's something uniquely powerful about a romantic relationship to help heal these wounds. But again, you don't need to get there tomorrow or in six months or a year, although I totally understand that there's some urgency here with the kids thing, and that's a variable that you have to hold alongside your fear.

But who knows? Maybe that'll also motivate you to lean into this fear and put yourself out there a little sooner, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. So I would just keep listening to yourself, keep talking and keep playing around.

[00:46:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: There's also an element of serendipity to all of this, right? You might jump on Bumble for two weeks and you know right before you delete the app and throw your phone across the room and call your therapist.

Yeah. You match with somebody who turns out to be great. And I don't know if you guys date for three months or three years or the rest of your life, but that could be the relationship that is so different from the one you had with your ex, and that kind of brings you back to life. It's always possible

[00:46:47] Jordan Harbinger: as for learning to trust again, that's been a theme on the show lately as well.

And actually since we just took a question that was literally about that from the young woman who dated that older narcissistic guy who took her for granted and almost pushed her out of a window.

[00:46:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:01] Jordan Harbinger: I'm gonna invite you to give that a listen, 'cause I think our thoughts there will speak to your intuition too.

Gabe, do you remember the, what was the episode number for that?

[00:47:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, that was episode 10 22 1022. We'll link to that in the show notes. That was a really interesting story.

[00:47:14] Jordan Harbinger: As for your final question, are there any good guys with integrity left in the world? I mean, yes, of course there are. I don't know who they are or what their situation is right now, or how you're gonna cross paths.

[00:47:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, hinge, I would imagine, right? Just statistically speaking. Sure.

[00:47:28] Jordan Harbinger: True hinge really do be getting people married out there. They really do. But this, this episode's not even sponsored by them. Maybe we should, maybe we should cut that until they drop us a, a check. But yeah, of course. There are kind healthy, high functioning guys out there.

And your job, my friend, is to keep learning and growing so that you can be ready to jump into things when you finally meet one. But all in due time, you've got this. We're rooting for you and crossing our fingers that the algorithm reigns awesome, honest, monogamous men with no webcams upon you in the near future.

Good luck. You know, Gabriel, I gotta say when guys do this kind of like blatant cheating and then they got their Wang out in front of a webcam while their wife is upstairs. Yeah. You know me, I'm not like, Mr. Karma's a bitch, right? It's gonna come get you. But like that kind of terrible decision making and choices that 100% of the time bites people in the ass.

Oh yeah. At some point, of course, the guy's a scumbag. You're lucky you don't have a kid with him. This woman he met is gonna screw him over. She's, he's gonna do some other dumb thing. By the way, I don't know anything about this, but adultery is punishable when you're in the military. It's against the UCMJ, which is the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

[00:48:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, really? Is it really? I did not know that.

[00:48:36] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So people can be punished quite severely for having an affair in the military. Again, I don't know anything about it. I don't know how often it's enforced. I heard that it is. I don't know what evidence you need. Wow. But this guy is definitely on thin ice.

If somebody were to drop a dime on him, just saying,

[00:48:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: I just Googled it. The maximum punishment for adultery under the UCMJ is a dishonorable discharge forfeiture of all paying allowances and confinement for up to one year in a military. bri, I have never heard of this Uhhuh. Interesting. But the actual punishment could be less severe depending on the circumstances.

Yeah, well, weighing in front of a webcam is pretty. Pretty damning. That's right. But I don't know. That's interesting. Should she do that?

[00:49:13] Jordan Harbinger: You know, I don't necessarily think she should. If she already got what she needed from the divorce and that was already settled. I don't know if you really wanna stir the pot that much, but you know it's there.

I'm just saying dark Jordan. Just saying you

[00:49:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Amelia adopted the dark. I was born in it. My recommendation of the week is a documentary called Flipping Out. It's by an Israeli filmmaker named Joof Shair. It's actually kind of old. It was made in 2007. And Jordan, you have to watch this documentary. It is so fascinating.

So you know how military service is compulsory in Israel for all men and women? Yes.

[00:49:46] Jordan Harbinger: Well, unless you're ultra orthodox, but yeah.

[00:49:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Although isn't that changing? I read in the news that it is,

[00:49:50] Jordan Harbinger: but I don't know the dets, I dunno why I brought it up. Continue. No,

[00:49:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: it's a fascinating topic. Anyway, after these people do their service for, what is it, two years or three years or something like that, they are granted a discharge bonus.

And a lot of these young people use their discharge bonus to go fly to, it's usually like India, Thailand, south America. Oh, yeah. To recover from their experiences and to basically just let loose and have fun and go crazy. Oh, yeah. So apparently like 90% of these kids will use some kind of drug during their stay, and every year, apparently something like 2000 of them end up needing professional help because they just like, they have a psychotic break or they just get too lost in the drugs.

That experience is referred to as flipping out.

[00:50:31] Jordan Harbinger: Yikes.

[00:50:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: So this documentarian over a period of, I think two years recorded, followed a bunch of Israelis, young Israelis in India and followed these former soldiers. Most of them are like under the age of 25 as they go through this weird post-military chapter.

And it takes place in like these guest houses of Northern India, in the beach resorts and Goa. And it just really captures this culture of drugs and hedonism and how some of these young people are like battling for their sanity. It's pretty wild. Yeah. But the coolest thing about this documentary is that they follow this one guy who flips out.

He has like King David syndrome or something. He thinks he's gonna be a guru in India. He's like trying to start a, like a compound to, you know, be like a spiritual leader, right? And this guy, helix Magnus is like this ex Mossad agent. Like families hire this guy to go extract their children from weird places and bring them home when they refuse to come home.

Oh my God. And the Habad rabbi who helps bring them together and support locally. It's so wild. It's a great documentary. I highly recommend it. You can find it on Vimeo. I think it's like seven bucks to rent and 10 bucks to buy. We will include the link in the show notes. I think you're gonna like it.

[00:51:39] Jordan Harbinger: Good recommendation.

The more you describe that, the more I realize I saw this years and years and years ago, and there's a point at which this guy finds this Israeli kid, and you're right, he's trying to start like a cult slash spiritual thing and he's got like a piece of land and he's paying these Indian guys just like come make mud bricks.

And they're like, I don't know, he just pays us. But he stopped paying us, so like, what are we gonna do? We're not gonna build this thing. And he is like walking around with a stick talking to himself. It's really sad and crazy wild. Yeah. Really good story. Also, in case y'all don't know, there's a subreddit for our show.

If you wanna jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes or the show in general, Gabriel and I are both in there, so definitely check it out. It's over on Reddit in the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. All are welcome. Alright, what's next?

[00:52:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. Two and a half years ago, I lost my sister to an aggressive and rare form of cancer.

She and I were very close, and I didn't know it at the time, but she was the glue holding our family together. She was sick for a little over a year before she passed, and what hurt the most during this time was how my family treated her. In that time. I realized with the help of your show that my mother is a covert narcissist and my father is a codependent enabler.

For background, I was what you would call a mama's boy until I went to college. When I started to notice how much my mother frustrated me to this day, she says that college was the worst thing that happened to me because of how it changed me. Not long after I graduated, my father lost his job. Instead of supporting him, my mom complained about where they were gonna get money and how disappointed she was.

She was also so angry that I took a job a few states away that she would never visit me, but got angry when I visited my college town and didn't drive an hour and 45 minutes out of my way to come and see her. I started to hate going to my parents' house because my mom and I would end up in a fight when I would call her out on her nasty behavior.

[00:53:27] Jordan Harbinger: My God, what a mother to have. I am so sorry to hear this.

[00:53:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Ugh. Should we conference Dr. Romney, Dr. Adams and Dr. Margolis in right now? Or

[00:53:36] Jordan Harbinger: seriously, we could use the narcissism and mesh brain trust on this one? I think,

[00:53:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: man, how cool would it be to assemble our psychologist friends to tackle a letter like this?

Like, like the Avengers, but for parental trauma?

[00:53:47] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I like it.

[00:53:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like Jennifer Connolly as Dr. Margolis and Ed Harris as Dr. Adams. Yes, I'd

[00:53:54] Jordan Harbinger: watched that movie for

[00:53:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: sure. Both my parents were very black and white in the way that they handled things with my sister. My mom seemed to check boxes rather than show her her real love.

My mom would do laundry, empty trash, cook meals, et cetera, but would never just sit with her dying daughter, hold her hand and comfort her. In fact, when my sister was in the hospital, my mom held her hand with her right hand and scrolled Facebook with her left. Oh man. When my sister was in pain, she'd say things like, why don't mom and dad love me?

And it broke my heart, dude, it breaks my heart. What a detail. Oh,

[00:54:27] Jordan Harbinger: that is so sad. God, the Facebook thing is a real image. Seriously, but my God, I'm having a lot of reactions here. Gabe, carry on.

[00:54:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: In the final days of her life, my sister was able to leave the hospital and decided to move to my parents' house instead of hers.

Largely because my parents' house was single story. I lived three hours away and came home as much as I could, even if it was for a few hours, just to see her and be with her. That is wonderful, man. I'm so glad you had that time together. Wow. I watched my dad continue to work and rarely spend time with my sister, but when he did, it was loving enough.

My mom, on the other hand, was with her all day, but barely spend time with her continuing to do chores around the house and do transactional things from my sister. All the while calling it love. One day I was there, I got so angry with my mother and told her to just spend time with my sister. She agreed, but only lasted about two minutes before walking out with a full trash can to dump.

Wow. This woman loves a job, doesn't she?

[00:55:27] Jordan Harbinger: She sure does, but I think it's pretty obvious what these jobs are about, though.

[00:55:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: When my sister passed and my father told my mom, she said, I have a nail appointment today. What? This is cartoonishly awful. I am stunned. After her death, I distanced myself from my parents.

When I spoke with my mom, it would inevitably turn into a fight about how much she's done for me, and you think you're in pain. But what about me? Her narcissism turned up to 11 when I wasn't giving her what she needed.

[00:55:55] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you cut off her narcissistic supply, which is one of the things that enrages narcissists the most.

[00:56:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: I tried reasoning with my father, but he ignored my requests, laughed at my boundaries, and has now completely severed contact with me. The hardest part is that I have another sister who I helped support through our sister's death and some other nastiness at the hands of our parents, only for her to turn on me when she decided to reestablish contact with my parents.

Interesting detail. So she has another position in this family system that is so different.

[00:56:25] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:56:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: I tell myself every day that I'm fine without my family. I have tons of people who genuinely love my family and me, and I've spent years cultivating relationships with so many great people that have been so special to us.

[00:56:37] Jordan Harbinger: Beautiful man. I'm so proud of you. This is one of the reasons that developing your own meaningful relationships with healthy people is so important, and I'm very happy that you have this support

[00:56:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: still. There's something about being ignored by my family that hurts and I can't get over it. I go to therapy, which has helped, but the process is still tough.

Any additional advice on what I should do? Signed awaking and leave taking, but still aching about these parents who are berating, upgrading, and when accounts the most forsaking

[00:57:09] Jordan Harbinger: man, this is a fascinating letter, Gabe, and a very painful letter. First of all, I wanna start by saying I am so deeply sorry that you had to say goodbye to your sister.

Losing a sibling to cancer, especially a young sibling, is just heartbreaking. But watching your sibling pass away while being neglected by her parents, especially her mother, after decades of this kind of treatment, is just an additional layer of pain. So for that reason, I'm so sorry for her. For you, even your parents and your other sister, there's just no words.

You don't need me to tell you that these are exceptionally difficult parents to have. The details you've shared here, like I said, almost cartoonish in how literal and extreme they are. I'm not surprised that you're furious with them, that you've distanced yourself from them. You've painted a picture of a family that requires very strong boundaries to engage with at all.

And if you listen to the show, especially the Dr. Ramini episodes, you know that a true, genuine, healthy relationship is impossible with a narcissist. They can't see other people as people, and they're almost always suffering from their own unaddressed trauma. So, as you know, a safe relationship with your parents is basically impossible.

So pulling back, protecting yourself based on what you've shared here, I think that's really important. And you know me, I'm not a guy who's like your mom was mean to you a few times. Cut her off. But when your parents guilt you for not living entirely for them, when they fail to love their children unconditionally or forget unconditionally, they can't even love them.

Well, even at the end of their life, when they literally laugh at your boundaries, when they cut you off for speaking up, when something bothers you, I just don't know what other option you have. And I imagine that that distance has given you some peace and clarity on this whole situation, but that doesn't mean that your family won't continue to hurt you.

I know you thought I was gonna drop in some like good news. No, no, not so lucky. We carry our parents around inside of us. We think about them. We relate to them even when we don't talk to them. Plus, they're still the painful legacy of this childhood that you had. So I think it's likely that your parents will always, on some level, be a source of sadness and anger and pain.

And your job, especially right now, is to be in touch with that pain, not to deny it or suppress it or negotiate with it. And definitely not to avoid it by capitulating to your parents' demands, but to feel it fully, learn to bear it so you can process and grieve all of these extremely formative experiences you've had.

And on that note, hey, I'm so glad to hear that you're in therapy and that it's helped. I hear you that the process is still tough. Therapy doesn't automatically make experiences like this easy. What it does is make them meaningful, clear, and survivable in a way that hopefully allows for a new relationship with your past, with the people in your life and with yourself.

And I'm thrilled to hear that you have that support as well as the love of all these amazing friends of yours. So my feeling is your job right now is to keep prioritizing yourself and your family. Continue being in touch with all these feelings, especially your sadness and your anger, and your grief.

Keep bringing all of this into your therapy and bring as much curiosity and compassion and acceptance to this pain as you can, because that is really the only way to come to terms with everything that you've been through and process all of this grief.

[01:00:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's interesting. Once again, this is exactly what the girl from question one and the woman from the previous question or going through, right.

Not trying to find a quick fix or some clever hack for all of the pain, but just making room for it and really owning the experience. That's it.

[01:00:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Again, the only way out is through. I guess that's a big theme of today's episode. Thanks, Ryan Holiday.

[01:00:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: I gotta say, Jordan, I'm having a very strong reaction to this letter because this guy's parents sound a lot like my mom's parents.

[01:00:45] Jordan Harbinger: Really?

[01:00:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's almost eerie. So, okay. Long story short, my mom, who is a pretty remarkable person, and by the way, Mm-Hmm. Who listens to the show every week. What up mom? She was raised by two very, very painful parents. Her dad was this. Raging, ambitious, abusive narcissist, a very impressive guy, an immigrant who really built himself up from nothing but just a total monster.

His biggest concern in life was money. He was like so afraid of losing money, very cheap and like pinched every penny kind of guy. And her mother was this fragile browbeat, just neglectful woman. She was so sweet, but just a shell of a person and they did a real number on their kids and basically. Their youngest daughter, my Aunt Shauna, she developed a severe addiction later in life and she ended up drinking and starving herself to death.

Oh my God. Which was horrible to watch. And it happened in part because their parents did very little to intervene and care for her. I mean, they basically, from what I remember, basically tiptoed around her addiction, avoided conflict. They didn't have a deep relationship with her to begin with. So there wasn't a lot of like trust and rapport there and you know, basically failed to love her the way that she needed.

But obviously that began the moment she was born.

[01:01:59] Jordan Harbinger: God, that is awful. I remember you telling me parts of this story, but some of this, a lot of this is new to me. So how old were you?

[01:02:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: 11 or 12? I think maybe 12. So my sister was about seven or eight. And oh man, this event really made an impression on us. Uh, we visited her in the hospital.

My sister was actually there the day she died, which was very, I impact fairly traumatizing for my sister. It was awful. It was awful. Yeah. Ugh,

[01:02:22] Jordan Harbinger: I'm so sorry. Yikes.

[01:02:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: But here's the crazy thing. So on the day my aunt died. Her parents had tickets to the theater, right? To the Geffen Playhouse in Westwood, which is, yeah, walking distance from UCLA where my aunt died and after she died, my grandfather went to the theater and scalped the tickets for like 200 bucks.

Oh my God. Because he could not stomach the thought of being out that money. This is hours after his daughter died.

[01:02:49] Jordan Harbinger: For what? I mean, at least he didn't go to see the show. He's like, well, gonna use these tickets.

[01:02:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: I would almost understand going to the show more than standing outside the theater and scalping the tickets, but yeah.

[01:03:02] Jordan Harbinger: So that's your family's equivalent of this mom going to get a manicure after her daughter just died?

[01:03:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. It is eerie. I feel like I know this family, and because I've dealt with these personalities firsthand, I know that they are incredibly wounded, limited, confused people. You don't abandon your daughter on her deathbed if there isn't something deeply wrong with you.

So yeah. When our friend here talked about his mother doing laundry, cooking, emptying the trash, but never just sitting with her dying daughter and holding her hand, I'm angry and I'm deeply sad just like he is. But I'm also seeing a woman who cannot bear the vulnerability and the intensity of grief, of love, of real relationship.

I mean that detail about her lasting two minutes in the room before taking out the trash.

[01:03:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And

[01:03:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: also that image of holding her daughter's hand with one hand and scrolling Facebook with the other,

[01:03:50] Jordan Harbinger: which Gabe, I just gotta say, I'm still wrapping my head around all this. His sister being in pain from cancer and going.

Why don't mom and dad love me? And I'm assuming, you know, she's in pain, she's crying. That is so unbelievably sad. It really might be one of the saddest things that I've ever heard on this show, and it's making me so sad to the point where it's turning into anger. Yeah. Because that's how I process many emotions.

And maybe I should talk to my therapist about that, but it's really, it really is making me freaking angry, man.

[01:04:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: I know. It is heartbreaking. And it's so sad to think that that was one of her last experiences before she died. Yes. Actually, I say that, but also in the mix there. One of her last experiences was being there with her brother who would come and spend time with her.

And that's why I was so touched that he made the time and he did everything different from his parents. But yes, this is horrible. This is a mother who is deeply uncomfortable with intimacy, who was probably, if I had to guess, totally overwhelmed by her sadness, which she could not allow herself to feel.

And she was probably ashamed of that on some level that she was not really in touch with, and who needed desperately to distract herself in order to cope. But also to be fair, these chores that seem like empty avoid and gestures, like checking a box as our friend put it, I think there was probably an aspect of them that was love, the only kind of love she knew how to offer.

And for a person as emotionally stunted as this, those little acts in their own strange way, they might be glimpses of the best part of her. They're not enough, but they were all she could do. So what I'm trying to say is I am fully on board with your rage, your disappointment, your sadness. They are absolutely warranted.

But while you make room for all of that, I would also invite you to make room for the fact that your parents' narcissism, there are avoidance. These are defenses they developed in response to their own serious trauma. I mean, just imagine the childhoods that produce people like this.

[01:05:39] Jordan Harbinger: Geez. Yeah. They

[01:05:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: can't do better.

It's too threatening. It's too painful, and that's their stuff to live with. And maybe in time that'll make it a little bit easier for you to have some compassion for them, maybe even to forgive them on some level Eventually. But just like with the girl from question one, there's no need to race to that outcome.

Just honor your feelings and trust them. And this process you're in with your parents will take care of itself.

[01:06:04] Jordan Harbinger: Totally agree, Gabe. And meanwhile, you're rewriting all that Mm-Hmm. The fact that you were there for your sister in such an incredible way while she was dying. That's a gift, and that's something you should be proud of.

Your other sister, she has her own experience of all this, her own wounds. She's choosing your parents right now. And that hurts, but in a way that probably confirms that you're the only person in the family who sees your parents clearly. Mm-Hmm. So your journey is bearing those very same feelings that to Gabe's point, your parents can't tolerate.

And because you have a family of your own in this beautiful circle of friends, I know that you'll be able to share them, work through them, find new meaning in them, and that's what's gonna get you through, and it's gonna make you a better husband, a better dad, a better human being, and that is your reward for doing this important work.

We're sending you and your sister and your late sister, wherever she is now. And she was so lucky to have you there with her at the end, my man, all of you, a huge hug. I hope y'all enjoyed the show this week. I wanna thank everybody who wrote in and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. As always, go back and check out Tarina, Shaquille if you haven't yet.

The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people that I know, like, and trust, and I'm teaching you how to build that same thing for yourself in our six minute networking course. It's not necessarily just about work stuff. I mean, you see how relationships support you in your time of need.

This stuff is not a joke. This is not a gross course. It's not schmoozy. The drills take a few minutes a day. You gotta dig the well before you get thirsty. Build those relationships before you need them. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Again, it's all free. It's my gift to you. Six minute networking.com is where you can find it.

Show notes and transcripts@jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabriel's on Instagram, Gabriel Mizrahi, or on Twitter at Gabe Rahi. This show is created in association with Podcast one.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, and of course, Gabriel Rahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on this show. Dr. Margolis input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience.

It's intended to be general and informational in nature does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Yasmin Mohamed, who grew up under the tyranny of radical Islam.

[01:08:39] Clip: This religion forces people to just get stuck in time.

It is the root of so many of the evils that are happening in these countries. This is why we can't progress. We always hear about how the caliphate is coming, how the Islam will rule the world, how Muslims will get rid of the infidels. We're gonna kill off all the Jews and Muslims are gonna control this whole world, and the whole world will go back to Allah the way it should be.

Everybody on the planet will be praying to all lump. These people are indoctrinated into a belief system that turns them into monsters. It erases their humanity. It tells them your basic humanity and what you believe to be right and wrong. You must ignore and you must follow what you are told to do.

This is happening in your backyard, and if you don't care about what's happening in Afghanistan or what's happening in Pakistan, what's happening in Saudi Arabia? Then care about what's happening on your own soil, at least. Terrorism is the art of fear, and the only way to defeat terrorism is to not be afraid.

In the face of these people that are telling you, you are not allowed to have free expression, you are not allowed to have free speech, you are not allowed to have an opinion. You say, okay, watch this. Watch my opinion, watch my free expression, express itself.

[01:10:07] Jordan Harbinger: For more about Yasmin's Harrowing story and her Escape, check out episode 7 48 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

[01:10:15] Clip II: Hi, cold Case Files fans. We have some exciting news for you. Brand new episodes of Cold Case files are dropping in your feed. And I'm your new host, Paula Barrows. I'm a cold case vi super fan true crime aficionado, and I love telling stories with unbelievable twists and turns. And this season of Cold Case VI has all of that and more.

I want to die.

[01:10:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't want to die.

[01:10:39] Jordan Harbinger: I want to die. Her cause of death was strangulation,

[01:10:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: crying face down on the bed. She was in a pretty advanced state of decomposition. A little bit of bloody froth had come from Deborah's mouth. He panicked and decided he was getting rid of the body.

[01:10:51] Clip II: I saw a danger in everything.

So get ready. You don't wanna miss what this season has in store. New episodes of Cold Case files drop every Tuesday. Subscribe to cold case files wherever you listen to podcasts.