1377: Is Help Unseekable for Attraction Unspeakable? | Feedback Friday

1377: Is Help Unseekable for Attraction Unspeakable? | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the 2-in-1 shampoo and conditioner, cleansing and rehydrating these greasy locks of life conundra, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What an obscure one. What does that make you, the loofah?

Jordan Harbinger: Unfortunately, yes. I am the fluffy/scratchy sponge absorbing all of the shower detritus.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Just hanging for months from the shower dial, the one you do not want to share with other people. '

Jordan Harbinger: Cause it's full of skin cells. Yeah, all loofahs should be m- monogamous, I think.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No ENM for those loofahs. It's public health, guys.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, we don't make the rules. Hey, Gabe, what are we talking about right now?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know.

Gabe. We were talking about how I'm the 2-in-1 shampoo and conditioner and you're the loofah of the advice world. Very straightforward metaphor.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, I guess that's why on the Jordan Harbinger Show we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker, and during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of [00:01:00] amazing folks: CEOs, rocket scientists, drug traffickers, jihadis, former jihadis anyway, hostage negotiators.

This week we had an episode with Sean Hemeon, a meth-dealing Mormon on a redemption tour, and also a Skeptical Sunday last Sunday on alphas. You know, alpha males, alpha females, alpha wolves, all that kind of stuff. On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and lose ourselves in increasingly ridiculous and arcane metaphors for me and Gabe's role in y'all's lives.

Producer Jase Sanderson: Producer Jase here. How are you doing today? If you'd like to take a siesta on Gabe's Barcelona stories, you can take a siesta and wake up at the first question by skipping to 16 minutes and 30 seconds. Enjoy the show.

Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, where are you this week? I mean, you're in a dark room, but that doesn't really narrow it down.

How many hot yoga classes have you done? Maybe that's a better place to start.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm in Barcelona now. I got here two days ago. And, uh, on the hot yoga front, uh, you know, no comment.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. So that means two classes in two days. That [00:02:00] is-

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's what I'm thinking ... that is correct.

Jordan Harbinger: Nice. All right. Well, you didn't waste any time, did you?

I got... In a way, I admire that, right? It's like going to the gym the first day you land on a vacation. I'm always like, "Dang, you're that guy? I wish I was that guy."

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have to be that guy. It's usually my s- first stop in any new place. Got- first of all, got to plant a flag. Second of all, it just sets the tone and helps you get onto the local...

Well, there was no time zone shift, but with time zones, it really helps.

Jordan Harbinger: Got to plant a sweaty vinyasa flag, I guess. But I d- again, I get it. I work out on the road too. Not nearly as much as I should, not nearly as hard as I should. But I try to work remotely through my trainer, and then all bets are because kick my butt in the hotel gym.

And that's great, because if I don't, the chaos of travel just takes over, and things get messy. And then you leave, and you're like, "Oh, I lost weight," but it's all muscle, and you just feel like a blob. Yeah, not great.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. This is one of the pillars that I find makes the nomading doable, more than doable.

Like, fun, enjoyable, but sustainable.

Jordan Harbinger: What's the other pillar? Burning sage in your Airbnb?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, palo santo, actually.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I don't even know what that is. Do I, do I know what that is?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm [00:03:00] sure you've smelled it at some point.

Jordan Harbinger: Is that the wood that yoga teachers burn before class sometimes?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's the one,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah.

You know, I actually like that stuff.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it's great.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, I don't think it's cleansing my aura or anything like that, but it... I like how it smells, and that's good enough, eh?

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's what the loofah's for.

Jordan Harbinger: Who needs sweet hippie wood when you've got a Jordan loofah? Again, I'm s- not sure what we're talking about.

The metaphor's a little off the rails.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We are talking about how to survive the chaos of travel at this pace.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. Hot yoga for you. It's

Gabriel Mizrahi: kind of ridiculous though, because as you know, Europe is going through this crazy heatwave, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It did die down a little the last couple days, but it is still blazing hot.

Like, uh, I think all of Europe mostly is a hot yoga studio right now. Yeah. So just walking around, you get so s- everyone is super sweaty. Everyone I know takes three showers a day. And then I'm like going and walking into this 90-degree room, which I believe is 32 degree centigrade-

Jordan Harbinger: Sure ...

Gabriel Mizrahi: and doing mat Pilates or HIIT or whatever for an hour is just kind of not a, a normal choice.

Jordan Harbinger: I love that you walk out of a 32-degree room [00:04:00] and you walk out into 34-degree weather- ... in Spain.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a bonus class. That's how I'm

Jordan Harbinger: reframing

Gabriel Mizrahi: it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You got to walk home and you're like, "Ah, even hotter, but less stretching." I mean, it just seems a little redundant, because 90 degrees, 32 centigrade, that's, I guess that's doable.

When I go with you to your place in LA though, that's like 110 or 115, right? And which is what? 45 degrees Celsius? Because that's intense. That's a whole different ballgame. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is kids stuff. This is fine. They do not, as far as I can tell, they don't go infernal here in Europe.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. They go toasty.

Moderately hellish.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right. And sometimes that's actually a little nicer, because at the studio back home, the one I took you to, people f- sometimes people faint, it's so hot.

Jordan Harbinger: I went out because I was like, "I have to pee and I just need a break because I'm starting to feel a little bit dizzy." And I remember when I walked back in, I was like, "Oh, someone's in my spot."

And then I totally realized that I was disoriented as hell and, and had no- ... idea where I was going. And I kept walking- Yeah ... and I bumped into a couple people gently, and I apologized, and at the end they were like, "No, no need to [00:05:00] even..." Like, we saw, like, when I saw your glassy-eyed look, it was like, oh yeah.

Because I was like, "That girl's on my spot." Not even close. It was like four rows ahead, and I just couldn't... I, I was like, oh I, I... If I'd stayed in here, that would've been really bad news.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You ever do hot yoga so good you get Alzheimer's?

Jordan Harbinger: Geez. That's how you know you hit the zone. That's zone five right there.

You just don't remember where you are.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I now feel like I am obligated to say that fainting in hot yoga back in LA is rare and it does not seem fatal, but it does happen. Once every two, three months, you, you hear an ambulance siren pull up to the studio.

Jordan Harbinger: Nice. Mildly terrifying. Their insurance premiums must be through the roof.

Or do they... Is it one of those where they'll like drag the body outside and then call 911?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know what's higher, the insurance premiums or their electricity bill- Yeah ... because they're just pumping heat into those rooms 24/7. Anyway, I found a very solid studio in Barcelona with good heat, great vibes. I went back today for a sculpt class with ankle weights.

All [00:06:00] women, and me. And it kicked my ass, dude.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So Barcelona itself, because I could not care less about hot yoga anymore. You so, are you, are you liking Barcelona? Because I've heard the city is just amazing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I'm loving it. I'm burying the lead because I haven't even told you about beautiful Barc- I'm just going on about hot yoga, but yes.

The yoga's part of it, but it's... I'm loving it, dude. I'm a big fan of this city.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm not, like, a big architecture guy, but it's pretty cool, right? It's supposed to be stunning. There's cool buildings everywhere.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Next level. And not just the Gaudi buildings, which are obviously mind-blowingly gorgeous, but the sort of normal buildings.

Uh, I mean, the sort of average buildings are just incredible. Like, I find myself doing something I usually don't do in cities, which I'll be walking through these beautiful boulevards and tree-lined streets, and my head will just be craned up the whole time, like, just taking it in because it's so beautiful.

Jordan Harbinger: Do you bike at all? It seems like a bike-friendly kind of place.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's super bike-friendly. It's very flat, so it's easy to get around. I bike and I walk. I do [00:07:00] both. More hot yoga.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exact- yeah, it's, uh, it must be kind of like that. Y- except when you're biking, you're getting hot yoga with exhaust fumes and unfiltered cigarettes from the streets of Barcelona.

I just imagine Spain always has a festival with people squirting each other or throwing tomatoes or something like that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, you think... I've not seen anyone throwing tomatoes yet, but they are having a massive festival in my neighborhood. I'm staying in Gracia, and it's like, there's like, I don't know what the word is, but they have these neighborhood festivals that are, I think, funded by the city hall, where these neighborhoods get together in the squares.

You know, they have, like, multiple squares that people gather in, right? I think there's a contest for who can come up with the best theme, and every square or every street will have its own theme. Like, one will be underwater, and another one will be, like, haunted house, and, like, they just have all these different cool spots to, like, increase community engagement, I guess.

And so there are thousands of people in the street late at night every single night, even during the week. It's so full of life. [00:08:00] I feel like I've been infected by it. I'm like so hyped.

Jordan Harbinger: Europe is just so cool like that. It's safe of gener- well it's safer so like I don't know. At least when I was there in the '90s, right, living there as an exchange student, you could go to an event like Love Parade that had like a million people and the biggest news would be like, "Somebody got stabbed.

I mean, they're okay, but somebody got stabbed. Can you believe it? Unreal what's going on." And meanwhile, events that big in many other places turn into stampede deaths or just violence and stuff like that. Europe's getting some more of that now for reasons that we won't go into here on the show,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but- That's a different thing.

Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah. So-

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'll tell you this, I feel like it's a world away from Los Angeles. LA doesn't ha- has never really had this, right? You're either in your car or you're at home or you're at your place that you went to. There's no I'm going to walk for 30 minutes to meet my friend for tapas and then meander home and see what happens.

Jordan Harbinger: No, and you know what's funny? When I moved from New York to LA, I was like, "I'm not getting a car." And people were like, "You need a car." And I was like, "I'm just going to hang out in my neighborhood." And they're like, "Okay." And then a few [00:09:00] months, several months, I was like, "Look, I work at home all the time, but I can't even get to the dentist.

I'm taking taxis." This is pre-Uber. Those guys were like jerks. They'd overcharge you. They'd refuse to give you a ride because it was too short. Or they'd drive you around. And I was like, "All right. I actually do need a car." It's very hard to walk in LA. It's very dangerous to bike in LA. And so you just have the walking dead in LA really.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right. In fact, I remember the first time we met up for that dinner when you just moved to LA, you walked 45 minutes from your apartment, because you showed up and you were sweaty and you were like, "Oh, I'm sorry I walked." I was like, "I'm so- are you, like, trying to get exercise?" And you're like, "No, I don't have a car."

Yeah. I was like, my, my dude. What?

Jordan Harbinger: You were like, "Dude, I could have arranged to get you a ride." And I was like, "No, it's fine." Usually. "I thought I would walk." And it li- yeah, it took me like 90 minutes or something to get there. Maybe more. I don't even know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also had the pleasure of going for a little stroll with one of our listeners, Stuart.

Super cool dude, very bright, super creative. He's an entrepreneur. He lives here now and, uh, doing some very cool fintech stuff that honestly is so sophisticated I don't even fully understand it. But he showed me around my first night [00:10:00] and he's a very passionate Feedback Friday listener. I think he said he listens to the show on his hikes up this huge hill in Barcelona- Oh, wow

that he does every week. So shout out to Stuart. You're a real one, and thank you for dropping me a line.

Jordan Harbinger: So jealous. I love meeting listeners when traveling. It, it's funny because I'll go to a city and people are like, "You didn't call me." And I'm like, "I called five of you only. Sorry." Yeah, I'm glad you're having a good time.

You're going to have to tell us if you get whisked away in a European ambulance.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. If I do, it'll make that cute European ambulance sound. You know what I'm

Jordan Harbinger: talking about, right? Yeah. The one you see in like- Wee-oo wee- ... old, old movies, uh, uh, when they're in Europe. They alwa- y- you ever notice ... Actually, I don't know if this is deliberate, but I assume that it is.

You know more about film than me. When you see an old movie, they often have a siren just so everyone knows they're in a different place and it's Europe because the siren is weird, right? It's like the audio version of showing the Eiffel Tower. Like, just so you know, they're in France.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's actually really brilliant.

Jordan Harbinger: Want to show the one thing you guys know about France.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's cool though. That's cool. Like the sound design is telling you where you are [00:11:00] without having to spell it out right. Right. Or it just at least creates, creates a feeling of, ooh, foreign place.

Jordan Harbinger: They do it with Bond too, right? They'll show a landmark too, but sometimes it's a little too obvious.

But they also use those sirens and different models. Like they try to make it really look completely different. In the old Bond movies, obviously the new ones are ... You know, there's tons of things going on there. But even the old ones are like, we want to make sure the Americans get that this is Italy, but we can't just say like Italy.

It's too much. We don't just show the Colosseum. It's like they need to know before that. So anyway, yeah, I love that sound. Is, ours is a little like intense. Uh, it's a little stabby, little auditory stabs It's a little...

Gabriel Mizrahi: What is it? No, I can't remember. It's like woo.

Jordan Harbinger: It depends where you are actually. There's different siren- This is such a ridiculous tangent.

There's different sirens depending on where you are and what kind of emergency vehicle it is. And New York has these very modern sort of buzzy ones that are, are not constant because it bounces off the buildings and it's just terrible, so they have like burp, burp, like a buzzy thing. Hmm. There are some [00:12:00] cities in Germany when I was in, they had American sirens, and I asked, said, "Why are the sirens different in Magdeburg?"

Is where the city was. And one of the guys was like, "Actually, our police chief went to the United States for some kind of training thing and came back and was like, 'I want to model our police department off of a p- whatever department in the US.' So he bought American sirens for- ... the Magdeburg Police Department."

I don't know how much of that is true, but it, it was like one of the only cities in Europe where I went, "Whoa, they have US sirens here. What a random thing to have."

Gabriel Mizrahi: What a strange piece of trivia you have just shared. Yeah, yeah. But I feel bad now for the residents of this city because that is like being stabbed in the ear with an ice pick.

Yep, that's right. Which everything is cuter in Europe.

Jordan Harbinger: They go

Gabriel Mizrahi: cute- I don't know why ...

Jordan Harbinger: we go to war.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right. So before we kick off, I want to share a quick gem from our listener, Arseny Thumb von Neuburg, our resident post-traumatic growth expert, also a friend of the show. He sent me a note a few days ago and he said, "Hey, guys, rereading your newsletter about forgiveness a while back and then hearing last [00:13:00] week's episode with the wife of the traumatized husband who's trying to differentiate between compassion and self-sacrifice, a thought occurred to me which you may find interesting.

In the newsletter you talk about compassion as understanding why the other person did what they did. Interestingly, this definition is very close to what empathy research calls cognitive empathy. That means perspective taking, understanding what the other person is experiencing and why." Cognitive empathy is distinct from so-called affective empathy, i.e.

feeling the emotions of the other person in yourself. The two types of empathy can have different effects. For example, in negotiations, cognitive empathy is very helpful, while affective empathy can even be counterproductive for the outcome. Imagine you're a house buyer negotiating the purchase price. If you know that the selling party is a family that is being forced to sell their home to pay for their child's medical treatments, you'd probably feel some of their emotional [00:14:00] pain, which would be affective empathy, which may lead you to not negotiate as hard or may even cause you to overpay for the house.

Feeling with the other party may cause you to negotiate against yourself, generally not a sustainable long-term strategy. However, if instead of feeling their emotional experience, you focus on understanding what the seller needs, which would be cognitive empathy, it may lead you to find creative win-win solutions that won't involve simply overpaying.

For example, you could find a payment structure that would allow the family to cover their immediate medical treatments while allowing you to buy the house at a price that you won't regret later. Win-win. In reality, we probably need both types of empathy in different situations. We need affective empathy to create connection and belonging.

We need cognitive empathy, perspective taking, to move from emotions to solutions. The obvious caveat here is that high cognitive empathy, rationally understanding the needs of the other person, without [00:15:00] any affective empathy, feeling their emotions, comes dangerously close to the calculated manipulation we see in sociopaths.

Just wanted to share that with you to tease out some nuances in one of my favorite topics, Arseny.

Jordan Harbinger: I like that distinction. Super smart.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I thought so, too. We talk a lot about empathy, sympathy, compassion, you know, identifying with people. We talk a lot about appreciating other people's point of view. These terms start to blur, and I really actually don't often think about what are the subtle differences among them.

I like how Arseny laid it out. But I like even more the idea that sometimes you need to be careful about which one you're doing, you know? Because like, yes, affective empathy is a virtue, right? It's powerful, it's kind, it's all of these things. But if you're affectively empathizing with someone in an adversarial setting, like the one that Arseny mentioned or, I don't know, I imagine you're, you were an attorney, Jordan.

Like, if you're dealing with opposing counsel, you know- Yeah ... in a trial or in a negotiation or you're in a promotion pitch where only one person in your department can get the job, stuff [00:16:00] like that, that might become a liability.

Jordan Harbinger: Whereas if you can take the perspective of your opponent, that could be a superpower without undermining yourself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly, yeah. But then in a friendship or, you know, a family relationship like with a dear friend or a child, say, affective empathy might be what you need, and cognitive empathy might actually not be enough and could actually put more distance maybe between you and also kind of dishonor the relationship, so that's interesting, too.

Jordan Harbinger: Right, right. It's a nice distinction. Man, I really like Arseny's takes. Very insightful.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He's got a great lens on this stuff, so big thanks to him. And if you want to learn more about Arseny and his work, he's a really great executive coach who did his dissertation on post-traumatic growth, so it's just a wealth of knowledge about this topic.

We'll link to his LinkedIn in the show notes.

Jordan Harbinger: All right. Fun ones, doozies, et cetera, et cetera. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Before we dive in, this one deals with some fairly adult sexual stuff. It's nothing graphic, but I would probably say teenagers and up only for this one. Just wanted to give you guys a warning.

"Hi, [00:17:00] Friday friends. I've got a bit of a doozy for you. I'll lay it out here in a simple statement. I am a pedophile."

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, wow, okay. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: To be clear, I have never had inappropriate contact with an individual, and I believe deep down in my heart that I never will. I also do not view any illegal material." That being said, since I started taking an interest in the opposite sex, I've always had an unwilling attraction to early teenage girls.

It's odd, though, because while I do fantasize about it, when I've been around younger girls in the past, I don't actually have any real life attraction or desire for them. I liken it to someone that watches snuff films, but they would never actually kill someone. It's just a thing that when I have my alone time, it's often what I think about.

It's not the only thing I think about, but it's the most common. This has brought me a great deal of shame. It impacts my relationships, as I'm hesitant to date someone with kids. [00:18:00] I frequently consider suicide because of these thoughts. While I believe my willpower is strong enough to overcome any compulsions, I worry that someday I will stray and end up negatively impacting someone else's life as well as my own.

I'm no stranger to therapy, but I've never been open with a therapist about these desires. I don't want to fall into a mandatory reporting scenario where the therapist reports me out of an abundance of caution. I am confident that nothing I have done is illegal or unethical, but I'm worried about even having my name attached to an accusation.

I have a great career, and I love to travel. These accusations could obviously impact both, as well as wreck my family and social connections. I likely would just choose to exit rather than deal with any fallout. I'd like to try to find a therapist to discuss these urges with. I want to understand why my brain works the way it does.

I also want to try to rewire my brain if possible. I've looked at therapists on [00:19:00] sites such as beforeyouact.org and similar, but there are none within a several-hour drive of me. What recommendations do you have to seek out someone who can help me with this? Are there any other suggestions you have outside of therapy?

Signed, Expecting Revulsion and Fearing Expulsion for Seeking Out Help for This Shameful Compulsion.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Wow, this is quite a letter. So before we dive in, I want to say a few words about all this. It's a little delicate, but I feel it's important. I want to thank you for writing in, for being so forthcoming and vulnerable about all this, for giving us a glimpse into life with this particular condition.

This is just not an easy thing to talk about. I can't even imagine what it's like to write in about. And I really just appreciate your courage in disclosing these thoughts, your responsibility in not acting on them, uh, apparently in any way. That's a huge relief when you said that, by the way. Thank you for letting us know that.

Your genuine desire to seek out help and work on this. It's interesting, Gabe. I think it's fair to say that [00:20:00] pedophiles are generally pretty reviled people in our society. I know that's, uh, no surprise to anybody. And I, and I understand why. It's a very tragic crime to hurt a child in this way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure, yeah.

Of course.

Jordan Harbinger: And it's despicable, really. I get why a lot of people who struggle with these impulses are treated the way they are, and that's probably appropriate in a lot of cases. At the same time, and this is the kind of delicate part I have to admit that whenever I hear about people who are a- attracted to minors You

Gabriel Mizrahi: have some empathy for them,

Jordan Harbinger: right?

Yeah, or s- sympathy Yeah I can't remember the distinction between these two things, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Cognitive or

Jordan Harbinger: affective. Yeah I'm

Gabriel Mizrahi: not sure,

Jordan Harbinger: but yeah I mean, a big part of me f- just feels really bad for these folks, because like, imagine living with that impulse. Imagine living with whatever trauma created that impulse or, or whatever wiring led to it.

I don't know how these things happen. And k- you're just not able to control those thoughts and feelings. That's really awful.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, totally. It's got to be very distressing.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, just listen to the letter, the distress our friend is in, how this has constrained his life and affected his relationships. He would rather kill himself than open up about this, [00:21:00] and he hasn't done anything.

I find that heartbreaking.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I have to say I do, too. At the same time, that empathy is compatible with, A, helping people heal, hopefully, and B, holding people accountable if they are a danger to children.

Jordan Harbinger: Of course, yes, for sure. I, and I, so I kind of move between these two positions when it comes to something like pedophilia, really.

Obviously, we need some kind of intervention. I'm not sitting here condoning or minimizing pedophilia or whatever by any measure.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, I don't hear you saying that at all. I'm just, you're saying this must be a heavy burden to live with, and I agree. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: It's very heavy and very difficult, I'm sure. I can't wrap, it's hard to wrap my mind around that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: When I hear a story like this from a person like this who is successfully resisting these thoughts, who does not view child sexual abuse material, see Sam, who doesn't put himself in situations where he might slip and hurt someone, who seems to have a good grasp on what is happening in his head, who does seriously want to change, I have even more empathy.

I appreciate this.

Jordan Harbinger: That, to me, places a person like this in a different category from [00:22:00] actual active predators who are a real threat to society, who do need to be stopped and locked up. Of

Gabriel Mizrahi: course.

Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, all that to say I appreciate your lens on all this, and I, I, I commend it. So we wanted to get a real expert's opinion on all this, so we reached out to Dr.

Aaron Margolis, clinical psychologist and friend of the show, and somebody with more insurance than I do when it comes to s- discussing heavy-duty stuff like this.

Doctor Clip: I'm also known to the people who know me the best as the back.

Jordan Harbinger: And Dr. Margolis had the same reaction when we first spoke with her. She validated how hard it is to talk about this stuff, and she really appreciated your insight, your ability to distinguish between having thoughts and acting on those thoughts.

And just FYI, Dr. Margolis also consulted with another colleague of hers to make sure that everything she said reflected the latest thinking on this topic, best practices in the field, ethical obligations, all that. So we're treating this one pretty carefully because yeah, we don't want to get it wrong.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Getting a Feedback Friday shrink two-for-one special today.

Jordan Harbinger: Not bad. Not bad. You're welcome. That's right, BOGO. So the first thing Dr. Margolis [00:23:00] wanted to talk about is the difference between what's called egosyntonic thoughts and egodystonic thoughts. Egosyntonic refers to a thought, feeling, behavior that feels consistent with who you are, meaning it seems natural, it feels reasonable, it aligns with your values, desires, how you want to be in the world.

It feels, it feels, you know, like, like me. Egodystonic means the thought, feeling, or behavior feels alien, unwanted, or inconsistent with your values or sense of self. For example, if someone had the intrusive violent thought, "I want to go stab my coworker in the break room right now," and then they find that horrifying and they have no desire to actually act on it, that would be egodystonic.

Wow, I feel like I have those all the time, by the way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That also felt weirdly personal. Little close to home, Jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I remember when I first started dating Jen, I was like, "Do you ever just think, 'What if I stood up and slapped the waitress right across the face?'" And she's like, "All the time. Every single time I go out to eat."

And I was like, "I'm in love with you." Because I thought, like, I'm such a weirdo tha- like, why am I thinking about knocking all the plates out of this [00:24:00] man's hands? He's a nice guy. It's my own food. I would never do that. And, but it's just flashed through my head real quick. And that, then she's like, "Yeah, those are called intrusive thoughts, and millions and millions and millions of people have them."

And I was like, "Oh my God. Thank goodness.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And kids, that is how I met your mother.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. Anyway, back from casual assault to pedophilia. That's the difference between egosyntonic and egodystonic thoughts.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And FYI, most mental health disorders are egodystonic, and that's why most people seek out help for this stuff when it doesn't fit.

Jordan Harbinger: So obviously pedophilic thoughts that are egosyntonic are much more concerning than ones that are egodystonic. But to quote Dr. Margolis, one of the first things I hear when I read this letter is that these thoughts are egodystonic. Because you're describing this as an unwilling attraction, because you say it's brought you a great deal of shame.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And you're working hard to overcome these compulsions.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. And the whole problem seems to create a lot of distress for you, of course. So Dr. Margolis' take is that that insight is crucial and is also encouraging. She also believes that it's a very [00:25:00] important protective factor for you, because you are far less likely to act on these urges.

So that's good news, I suppose.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So this is where things get interesting, because it sounds like you're kind of self-diagnosed as a pedophile. But as Dr. Margolis pointed out, we actually don't know for sure that you meet the criteria for what is called pedophilic disorder, which is how the DSM classifies pedophilia under what is called paraphilic disorders.

She said it's possible that your symptoms could be explained by something else, namely what's called pedophilic OCD or POCD. So a quick word about POCD. POCD is a commonly used name for a theme or a presentation of obsessive compulsive disorder. With POCD, the person is not characteristically experiencing a sexual attraction and then worrying about what to do with it.

They're obsessing over the possibility that they might secretly have that attraction. And so the thoughts that come with POCD tend to be intrusive and unwanted, like, "What if [00:26:00] I'm attracted to children? What if that feeling I just had was sexual? What if I secretly enjoyed looking at that child? What if I've been a pedophile all along and I haven't realized it?"

That tends to produce feelings like fear, disgust, shame, uncertainty, which then causes the person to try to resolve those feelings through compulsions, which could be, you know, repeatedly checking one's physical reactions, analyzing memories, comparing their reactions to adults versus children, searching the internet, avoiding children, mentally reviewing encounters, repeatedly seeking reassurance that they are not, in fact, a pedophile.

All of these are a part of the picture.

Jordan Harbinger: And in POCD, the sexual thoughts are generally ego dystonic, right? I don't want this. This horrifies me. Why did I think that? Does having this thought mean I'm secretly attracted to children?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, that seems to be the case. With pedophilic disorder, the attraction itself is more likely to be experienced as ego syntonic, but usually just in the [00:27:00] narrow sense that it is genuinely arousing for people who suffer from this.

The person can still be deeply ashamed, distressed, morally opposed to acting on this stuff, and wish that they did not have this attraction in the first place. So this is very complicated. But look, obviously Dr. Margolis cannot diagnose you, but she did say that there are three qualities in your story that are consistent with POCD One is the shame, although again, shame can exist in both disorders.

The other is the distress, although that's also mentioned in the DSM under pedophilic disorder. And the avoidance, uh, strategies, the whole staying away from children thing. Dr. Margolis said that all three are consistent with what she has seen with POCD.

Jordan Harbinger: Although to be fair, she also said it wasn't clear from the letter whether those feelings are more consistent with a POCD process or a pedophilic disorder process.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Correct. Again, very complex, very idiosyncratic. But we just put this on the table so you have as much information as possible, and if this turns out to be an OCD subtype, [00:28:00] that's going to be a very different diagnosis and it would imply a very different treatment, which is why Dr. Margolis felt confident saying you need a thorough assessment by a therapist.

And she actually felt that this is quite urgent given your fear that someday you might stray, the fear of getting involved with a person with kids, and of course, the suicidality.

Jordan Harbinger: Honestly, Gabe, the suicidal ideation, even if it's kind of theoretical, that's the most worrisome part to me right now. The shame is doing more damage to him than this behavior that he hasn't even engaged in, and according to him, will probably never engage in.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree. Yeah, you really cannot afford to sleep on this.

Jordan Harbinger: No. It sounds to me like you're torturing yourself by making willpower your safety system here instead of letting a therapist help you work through this in a real systematic way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I know you're afraid to talk to someone, and I get it. We all get it.

But Dr. Margolis told us something that was very reassuring, which is nonspecific thoughts alone, without action, plan, intent, preparation, and an identifiable victim, [00:29:00] they don't generally meet any reporting criteria for a therapist. Because, like, what would there be to report? A report is to protect a victim, right?

If there's no victim or potential victim, there's probably nothing to report.

Jordan Harbinger: And that's especially true if you go to a clinician who's familiar with these disorders. I mean, how could they specialize in treating people if the first thing they did was drop a dime on them? It just, you know, it just doesn't make sense.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There might be some nuances here, like if you worked as, I don't know, a kindergarten teacher, maybe that would be a different calculus. But even then, there would still be no intent to harm and no history of actually harming a child, so Dr. Margolis said it would still probably be unlikely that an agency would even take a report.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, if you were consuming CSAM, that's also a different story. That's a federal crime, and a therapist might have to report that to the authorities. But you also said you're not doing that either.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We should recognize, though, there are some states in the US where the duty to protect analysis is broader than, say, California's.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, and laws change over time, et cetera, et cetera. We're not your lawyer.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But in all [00:30:00] likelihood, anything you shared with a therapist would probably only encourage them to ask you more questions to understand you better and then determine the actual risk. But based on what you've shared with us here in this letter, Dr.

Margolis was quite confident that none of this is, strictly speaking, reportable. So in her view, all of this makes it quite safe for you to disclose. As Jordan said, a therapist who specializes in this area would be very non-judgmental about this kind of disclosure. For example, Dr. Margolis actually told us that she has worked with people who have POCD, and she knows how incredibly distressing it is, and she feels very deeply for you.

And even if you do have pedophilic disorder, she still has compassion for you. So there's that.

Jordan Harbinger: That compassion, like we were saying before, it can live alongside wanting to make sure a patient doesn't act on these thoughts. So this should all be very encouraging news. Now, there's one big caveat to this, of course, which is that there are some bad, dumb therapists out there.

Dr. Margolis said she's heard stories about clinicians who misunderstand the law. They don't have a good grasp of reporting [00:31:00] guidelines. They get carried away. They jump the gun, and yeah, they make the wrong call, and that sucks. So her recommendation would be find a clinician who has solid training, ideally somebody who specializes in paraphilia, pedophilic disorder, OCD, POCD, et cetera, so you don't end up working with some yahoo who's been in practice for six months and has some janky online degree and didn't bother to read the reporting guidelines and immediately just freaks out and fills out a report for no reason instead of focusing on treating you.

If you go to somebody who specializes in, say, pedophilic disorder, I imagine they would know how to assess and diagnose correctly, and if they can't, I would, of course, hope that they would refer you to a real specialist.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And, uh, listen, about the distance from your home, if you can't find somebody near you, I would rather you find someone who specializes in this stuff and just see them virtually.

I'm guessing you're trying to go in person because you're concerned about privacy, like what if Zoom is going to record me or something like that. But if you are, Dr. Margolis wanted to remind you again that there is nothing in your letter that is reportable. Also, quick side note about privacy with [00:32:00] online therapy, and this is not just for you, my friend, but for everyone listening.

My understanding is that you can generally have high confidence, maybe not absolute confidence, but high confidence that your therapy sessions are private on Zoom, assuming, of course, that your therapist is using Zoom in a HIPAA-compliant way I read up on this a little bit because I was curious about it myself, and I do take this with a grain of salt in this day and age, but it does seem legit.

Zoom does not create and retain a copy of the conversation on its servers unless the host records the meeting, but that is a feature that the host has to initiate.

Jordan Harbinger: Right, and it, it warns you when you do that, because my trainer records. I don't know why he records our sessions, but it says, "This call is being recorded."

Interesting. "A recording in progress."

Gabriel Mizrahi: What's that about?

Jordan Harbinger: I don't know, man. I really have no clue. I think he's trying to train an AI or he just keeps the file around so it proves that we actually had the session on the date so you can't be like, "I didn't do that. I don't need... Why'd you charge me?" I really don't know, but it automatically does that.

Who knows? I should ask.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Be amazing if you found out your trainer had some paraphilia that you didn't know about, but okay.

Jordan Harbinger: Let's go. He's [00:33:00] putting all of my training sessions on OnlyFans for people who like to watch chubby middle-aged men do pushups or attempt to do pushups.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You missed your calling, bro.

Jordan Harbinger: There's a... Look, there's a difference between transmitting a conversation and storing it. So when you have a Zoom meeting, your audio and video, it, it does have to pass through Zoom's infrastructure while the call is happening, but that doesn't mean that Zoom is making a permanent recording of that conversation.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And they offer end-to-end encryption, which by the way, you have to manually enable. That helps.

Jordan Harbinger: Although of course, Zoom does retain metadata and diagnostic information about meetings, who's participating, what their setup is, usage data, stuff like that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So that's what they say anyway. I want to believe them because I also do online therapy and I think I mostly do believe them.

Although to be fair- Yeah, I know.

Jordan Harbinger: You do online therapy. I have all the sessions here in a folder.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh cool, right next to your burpees?

Jordan Harbinger: Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Look, I don't know. To be fair, Zoom has had a couple big security dust-ups since 2020, but apparently they've gotten a lot better since. I don't know, guys. This is what I'm reading online and it seems encouraging, but nothing is perfect.

But you know, there are also several other softwares [00:34:00] that clinicians use to like manage records and appointments and billing and notes and all of that. Those are all apparently HIPAA compliant too. But anyway, the bigger question for patient privacy is whether recording, transcription, or AI meeting features are enabled in Zoom because obviously then you're generating additional records, which I believe are also protected by the law, but need to be actually well-managed by the provider.

So if that's what you're concerned about, it's totally fair to ask your therapist, "Are you using a HIPAA compliant version of Zoom with what's called a business associate agreement?" That's Zoom's healthcare compliant configuration.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so that actually exists. We're not just speculating that that exists.

That's a real thing. That's

Gabriel Mizrahi: a real thing, yes.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, okay. Good. That's good.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And that creates a handful of practical protections for patients. So you could also ask, "Are our sessions ever recorded or transcribed? Are any AI note-taking or transcription tools enabled?" I would hope their answers to those questions would be yes, no, and no, and hopefully that puts you at ease.

I just wanted to spell that out because it's been on my mind lately too and sorry for how dull that aside [00:35:00] was. This was like, you know, this is like the safety drill when you first get on a cruise ship. Like the dooze- Everyone's like, "Yeah, we get it. Life jackets, emergency alarm." Where's the buffet? "Okay, can we hit the open bar and get absolutely shwasted now?"

But this privacy stuff is actually quite important so yeah, I just wanted to share that.

Jordan Harbinger: Now, I'm glad you did, especially if this is what's standing in the way of people seeking out help or getting therapy remotely. Yeah. So look, we were all moved by this one line in your letter, "I want to understand why my brain works the way it does."

This why, this insight you have into your situation, it's powerful because if these urges come from some childhood trauma or some past experience, understanding that is obviously going to be key. Processing these events is really important. But i- in Dr. Margolis's experience, that's only half the battle. The other half is the behavioral piece, how to stop fantasizing about this stuff, not harming yourself if you get overwhelmed, trusting yourself to be around children and not hurt them, the general rewiring of the brain you described.

That's where the rubber meets the road. If this turns out to be POCD, this [00:36:00] behavioral piece could be achieved through some kind of exposure therapy. For example, graduated exposures like, I don't know, spending more time with children over time with the guidance and input of a therapist who will help you learn how to do that effectively and safely.

I- if it turns out to be paraphilia, like pedophilic disorder, then I'm guessing the interventions will probably look different and not put you around kids. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: To be transparent, Dr. Margolis has not done any of her own research on this issue but after consulting with her colleague and reading up a bit, she had one last practical recommendation for you.

I know you were asking for things outside of therapy so here's one. And it was after you get your assessment, if this is not an OCD related diagnosis, then it is important in her view for you to stop engaging in any fantasies about children while masturbating because it reinforces those pathways in the brain.

So instead, many therapists would advise a person to practice masturbating to other fantasies or ethically produced pornography to help the brain create new pathways. Because as we know, those neural [00:37:00] pathways, those grooves, they do get deeper the more you do something. So there's another behavioral intervention that could help.

But again, great news that you don't view any illegal material. That is probably making all of this much easier, in addition, of course, to being the legally and ethically correct thing to do.

Jordan Harbinger: I would also look into other resources for people struggling with paraphilias, POCD, et cetera. One organization we heard about is called ASAP International.

You can easily find your way to many more by searching online. Helplines, books, communities, support groups, directories of experts, all of these would be great complements to psychotherapy. So please look into that. Again, I really appreciate your openness and diligence in seeking out help. I'm so sorry that you've struggled with this for so long, but I am very glad you wrote in.

I hope we've been able to make it doable for you to find the support that you need and frankly deserve. And who knows, maybe in time your relationship with these thoughts and with yourself, with other people in your life, they might start to look very, very different, which I'm sure would be life-changing for you.

So go find that [00:38:00] therapist and start talking, my friend, and good luck with this. This is, it's a burden I, I do not, no, no one listening to this envies this burden, but you can do it, man. We're all rooting for you. Big thanks to Dr. Margolis for her wisdom and advice. Dr. Margolis is seeing patients in Los Angeles and virtually in a HIPAA compliant way throughout California.

You can learn more about her and her approach at drerinmargolis.com. You know what you can grab without catching a felony? A great deal on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. I am not especially good at doing nothing.

Even when I'm supposed to be relaxing on vacation, part of my brain is calculating how I could be using that time more productively. I could turn a quiet afternoon into a list of errands or somehow make taking a vacation feel like a way to get ahead with interview prep and podcast performance metrics.

Being motivated has helped me accomplish a lot, but it can also make rest feel like something I need to earn. And if I'm not actively working towards something, I can start wondering whether I'm wasting time or falling behind. [00:39:00] The truth is, slowing down doesn't mean you've lost your ambition. Rest is part of taking care of yourself, and therapy can help you examine why it may feel uncomfortable to pause.

It can also help you recognize the expectations you've placed on yourself and find a healthier balance between pursuing your goals and actually enjoying the life you're working so hard to build. BetterHelp offers online therapy with licensed therapists through video, phone, messaging. I use BetterHelp, so does Jen, so does my dad.

It's a resource our family genuinely values. Visit betterhelp.com/jordan today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com/jordan. Thank you so much for listening. All the deals, discounts, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. Thank you for supporting those who support the show.

Now, back to Feedback Friday Okay, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, this next one is a response to the letter we took on episode 1365 from the woman who wants her husband to plan a date night or a vacation for them and take care of all of the logistics. You remember this one?

Jordan Harbinger: Uh, yeah, the guy [00:40:00] who works 80 to 90 hours a week at his business and will just not pick up the cue and plan literally anything.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right. So her dilemma was, "If he cannot listen and do this thing for me, I feel unloved," in her words, right? "But I don't know if I should keep fighting for this thing I want or if I just need to, like, accept that my husband is not wired this way and just does not get it."

Jordan Harbinger: Man, yeah, that's a tough one.

I kept thinking about that one for a few days. Anybody who's married knows how tricky that particular question was or is.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This story sparked a lot of debate- Yes ... in our subreddit and in our inbox. It was fascinating, man.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I was eating some popcorn while I scrolled. It got intense in there, and people were like, "You guys who don't understand will never understand women."

And I was like, "Well, okay. I mean, that hits a little close to home. Did you have to go there?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: This topic is possibly more controversial than pedophilia.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I

Gabriel Mizrahi: don't know. It was-

Jordan Harbinger: By the way, our subreddit, super fun place to pop off about the show. If there was an episode you liked, an episode you didn't like, you want to debate, uh, gender politics and marital obligations with strangers on the internet, you can find that type of activity over on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

Gabriel Mizrahi: A lot of you, men [00:41:00] and women, had very passionate takes about all of this. Some of you felt our friend is 100% in the right. Her loneliness is totally valid, also very common among mothers who raise children, and her husband just needs to listen and follow through to give her this connection that she's craving, that she deserves.

Some of you felt she was, I don't know, somewhat narrowly equating this one act, planning a date or a vacation, with love, and she needed to stop outsourcing this experience that she's wanting entirely to her husband.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, if memory serves, we went back and forth on that ourselves, did we not?

Gabriel Mizrahi: So this is what makes that story so interesting to me, that they are both probably right and they're both probably missing something, or at least have the opportunity to look at each other and the situation in some new ways.

And so how does a couple, especially a longtime couple, navigate a disconnect like this?

Jordan Harbinger: Oof. The $64,000 question, indeed.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So on that note, I wanted to read one of our listeners' responses to that segment. And we got several of these, but I thought this was a particularly insightful one. It also happens to come from a woman, so I think it might [00:42:00] help correct for any bias Jordan and I might have had when we were reading that story.

Jordan Harbinger: Awesome. Can't wait to hear how we were clueless dude bros in that segment. I c- well, I'm ... Actually, I'm genuinely curious to hear this. "

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. This is about the letter writer from episode 1365, whose husband works 80 to 90 hours a week and who wants more effort from him on planning some shared activities.

What struck me most from her letter was her remark that she feels, quote, 'lonely in her marriage,' unquote." She said that things like vacations and date nights only happen if she plans them, and that she would feel more loved if her husband took more initiative and planned a trip and told her all she had to do was show up.

You guys wondered whether she was being rigid in equating love with that one specific thing, and perhaps she is. But I think it's more likely that she concretized her request into him planning a trip, while maybe she's trying to describe what many partners are frustrated by: being the one half of a couple who carries all the emotional labor of their shared family [00:43:00] life.

It seems to be a fairly common pattern, hopefully changing with each generation, that when one member of a couple earns the income, that becomes their only job and role in the family. One person works many hours, earns the income, the other person does everything else. This goes beyond the obvious and already overwhelming housework and child rearing.

It is a thousand little additional things, from being the secretary, like, "Hey, can you call the fill in the blank about a billing error?" To being the one who keeps track of things, like, "Hey, where did I put my insert misplaced item here?" To being the problem solver, "I need you to fill in the blank, get my shirts from the cleaner, attend an important corporate event," et cetera.

No one thing in itself is a problem, and much of it may be done willingly, but you add them all up and it is exhausting, and as the writer expressed, lonely.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, fair point. I do agree with you, but also [00:44:00] hustling 80 to 90 hours a week and giving yourself a myocardial infarction down at your chandelier factory or whatever so your kids can afford private school, also exhausting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, so now we are recapitulating the men and women not knowing who has it harder thing, which is going to get us into more hot water.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, but isn't it possible they both have it hard, just in different ways?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Of course. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I don't know if it needs to be a contest, although, I, as I said in the show, I suspect my man is staying either at the office away from home deliberately for 90 hours a week or is wildly inefficient or micromanaging of everything going on in the business in ways that are completely unnecessary.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, and I'm also just remembering that we spent quite a bit of time talking about maybe some of the things he needs to look at.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And maybe how that would help solve their problem. But look, I'm not siding completely with the husband in that story. I don't really view it that way. But It's interesting.

Something does tell me that if we could talk to him, he might say that he feels pretty lonely too working that much.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Solo business owner working that hard to provide for his family. Like I said, I, I actually think he should [00:45:00] not be doing that, but I'm sure that that's a lonely position sometimes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The better question is, are they really listening to each other?

You know, how do they show up for each other? How do they communicate their challenges and their love for each other?

Jordan Harbinger: The date night or the vacation she wants, this is a proxy, right? It's a proxy for a feeling or experience that she's not getting from him or elsewhere.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And so our friend goes on, "Writer, I hear you.

You are not crazy. You are not unreasonable for wanting a partnership in your marriage, and you are certainly not alone. It is not easy to shift this stark division of roles as it has become quite the norm and ingrained across at least several generations."

Jordan Harbinger: Powerful words. Somewhere out there, Gloria Steinem just leaned back and lit up a cigarette.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She goes on, "A few ideas. See if you can talk with your husband about it in these terms: that you value him as a partner, are happy to do many of these things for your family- But when all of them end up on your plate, it becomes exhausting. So are there one [00:46:00] or two he could take on?

Jordan Harbinger: Nice pitch. I like that approach based on what she shared.

I don't know if that guy's going to go for it, though. I mean, he won't even plan a date night for her. Is he really going to start picking the kids up from Little League and go shopping for school supplies when he needs to be down at the old chandelier depot calling customers- ... till 9:00 PM? I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Of all the jobs you could have picked, I don't know why that one's so good.

Jordan Harbinger: You know why it's fresh in my mind? Have, have you seen Backrooms?

Gabriel Mizrahi: No.

Jordan Harbinger: It's a horror movie. I'm sure you've heard of it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: The guy runs a furniture store, and I just couldn't remember furniture store, and I remember seeing a random chandelier in there, so it was... That's exactly... This is the deep thoughts that go on to the in- y- that are the ingredients of this podcast is-

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, but I love it.

I love imagining- Yeah ... the husband, like, sweating under the lights and just being, "I got to move more units." That's right. More ceiling units. No, it's a real... Yeah. I, I'm with you. Good choice. She goes on, "Perhaps a few sessions with a couples counselor to help your husband understand what you need."

Jordan Harbinger: 100% in agreement with that.

Yes. Something tells me they've tried that before, but, you know, who knows? Do it again [00:47:00] maybe.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And if you figure out some solutions, start blogging about them for the many other people in your shoes. Wishing for you to be heard and responded to, my friend. Signed, Identified with the listener who's groaning because what she's really feeling is lonely, and that feeling is only growing because of these tasks her husband is not owning.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Some solid ideas in there. I agree with all of them in principle.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Especially the couples counseling idea. I'm with you 100%, Jordan. Their situation is an ideal one to bring to a professional, because I do think, like, just the listening has broken down. Also, an extremely common situation for so many couples, so.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally, man. They've been married such a long time, not communicating as well as they could, kind of lost sight of each other, not understanding each other's feelings and needs. Yeah, you know what's funny, Gabriel? I was thinking about this the other day. I've only been married, I don't know, what has it been?

It's been eight or so years. I should probably get a handle on that. Anyway, I've been married for almost a decade.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know who does know that number?

Jordan Harbinger: That fi- Yeah, the amazing sponsors. The person.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Doing all the emotional labor in your marriage knows it.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, I thought it was the amazing [00:48:00] sponsors who-

support this show. Dang it. No. See, I even got that wrong. And that's the problem. All right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: What you find is that, like, you- when you first get married, right, blah, blah, blah, no kids most of the time- And then you have this kid situation where you're raising kids and maybe your communication goes way, way down.

And maybe there's a lot of other, like he's working super hard, they need all this money, and she needs to be home all the time, and the kids are demanding all that attention. It's hard to snap out of that phase because when our kids were really little, they needed a lot of attention. Now they're in school, they still need a lot of attention, but it's not the same amount.

And me and Jen were just kind of like, "Yeah, they don't need the same amount of attention, so we have extra bandwidth." You have to rededicate that to your partner. Otherwise, you're just like, "Great, now I can work harder and I can stay later and do th-" And it's like you really have to focus on rededicating that to your partner when you're in a completely different phase than like falling in love and getting married.

It's not easy to do that. It's not natural in many ways for us to do that. I shouldn't say natural. It's not automatic for most of us to do that. So yeah, I, I can understand how this [00:49:00] happens and I can understand how it happens and compounds over, whatever, 20 years as opposed to eight.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And how it can produce this kind of like I'm alone feeling.

So I think this insight that she feels lonely, that was obvious, very obvious from the original letter, right? But I think it's the most important part of this letter, just appreciating the feeling.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Again, I totally agree, but didn't we talk about that in our response, how her loneliness is valid and there are a few things she could do to increase the chances of reducing that loneliness?

Gabriel Mizrahi: We did, yes. Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: Both can be true.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I think we were trying to shift her out of that binary, but what this letter is making me wonder is by trying to help her get this need of hers met in a new way, which to me implies that the need is fair, right? We might have a little bit glossed over something even more fundamental, which is just, like, yeah, what does it feel like to be you, and is this basic feeling valid?

What I'm still struggling with is, yes, of course, it's valid to feel lonely if you're alone a lot, especially in a marriage where kind of one of the big ideas is that you're not supposed to feel too alone.

Jordan Harbinger: Theoretically, yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:50:00] Theoretically, but what you do with that feeling and how you work with that problem, at some point, that has to become the question, right?

I think that's the more fruitful question anyway.

Jordan Harbinger: But that's why we were pitching those ideas for how she could talk to her husband or make it easier for him to plan something because otherwise, what? Are we just going to say, "Your feeling is valid. Your husband's wrong. The end"?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, maybe that's one answer.

Maybe that's true to some degree, but I'm not sure how far that's going to get her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. That's exactly what I'm grappling with, and our friend here is doing something similar, giving her pitches, but maybe less of the you need to revisit the story you're creating around this problem variety and more of the here's another way to communicate it to your husband variety.

Jordan Harbinger: And I fully agree that they should be communicating and listening way more, but I feel like she tried that and he's just not getting the message. And we don't know how she tried it. We don't know how she expresses herself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We don't know if she's not making herself clear or if he truly is unwilling to hear her or do something about it.

Jordan Harbinger: The eternal question, another super fun part about marriage, but this is why you go to couples therapy. It's a wise investment. But [00:51:00] honestly, Gabe, I'm still not convinced that this is 100% her fault for being rigid in this vacation planning thing or that it's 100% her husband's fault for neglecting her. I think there's a dance that's happening here together and separately and a whole dynamic between them that we were not privy to.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There was so much more I wanted to know, and a ton of history, too, between them, I'm sure, so.

Jordan Harbinger: That's part of what I found a little frustrating about that letter, just knowing that whatever's going on between them is so much more complicated than just, you know, "He won't listen," or, "I need this thing."

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think they have the opportunity to go very deep in couples therapy if her husband can carve out an hour away from the chandelier factory.

We'll see about that.

Jordan Harbinger: Ha. Big if.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Big if. Big if true. So I have to share one last thing. While I was thinking about this new letter we just read, I happened to come across another banger of a quote by that guy Adam Phillips, the author I mentioned a few weeks ago He's a British psychotherapist and an essayist.

I've been reading him a lot lately. He's a really, really good writer. And in his book On Kindness, which I have not read yet, I just read e- excerpts of it online, he [00:52:00] apparently says loneliness is the inevitable cost of looking after ourselves.

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, yeah, that hits.

Gabriel Mizrahi: To be clear, I can't quite tell if he means that as a good thing or a bad thing, maybe both.

I'm guessing that he thinks it's a virtue to look after yourself, but I just found that idea very powerful in light of this listener's story, because she feels lonely for a lot of reasons, right? And her way out of that loneliness seems to be to have her husband plan something for them all on his own in exactly the way she described.

But I think the advice behind the advice we were trying to give her was, yeah, you deserve that recognition. You deserve that love. But you can also take a little bit better care of yourself here, for example, by making it that much easier for your husband to give you these experiences that you say you want.

And so from that perspective, I'm not so sure that loneliness is the worst thing she could experience if it's the loneliness born from appropriately looking after herself, which means [00:53:00] specifically not outsourcing all of her happiness, her entire sense of love and validation to her husband when he does these things she wants, you know, without pinning the fulfillment of that entire wish only on him.

Jordan Harbinger: You're making a good point. It's like her husband isn't irrelevant to why she's lonely, but she's ultimately responsible for what she does with her loneliness.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Nailed it. Yes. And that's kind of true of all relationships, I feel, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Anyway, we could talk about this forever, but I think this is a nice place to put it down for now.

So thank you for chiming in, my friend, and everyone else who popped off in the subreddit, and more good thoughts and good wishes to the original listener who wrote in. We're rooting for you. We're rooting for you guys. Only good loneliness from here on out. Only, only the fun kind of loneliness. By the way, you can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a lot easier. If you're wondering when to give up on your entrepreneurial dreams, your mother-in-law's become an extreme hoarder and is driving the family away, or you're debating whether to stay with a traumatized, paranoid, [00:54:00] dysregulated spouse who refuses to be medicated, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up at friday@jordanharbinger.com.

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Sign up at jordanharbinger.com/news. Okay, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabe. I'm a long-term wellness professional with a background in Oriental medicine and nearly 30 years vegan, with a sophisticated understanding of what the body needs and what it costs us when we ignore it. I'm also a woman who watched her father, brother, and mother all die of cardiovascular disease.

So when I tell you that my partner of 20 years is on four medications that his own PCP acknowledged he would not need with a Mediterranean diet and consistent moderate exercise, you'll understand why I think about this almost every day.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I can imagine. That's got to be tough to watch.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He told me his goal was to get off the medications and lose the weight.

That was over two years ago.

Jordan Harbinger: Right, right. My goal is to lose the weight. It just has to happen magically. I'm very familiar, sadly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Since [00:58:00] then, he's gained rather than lost and poured his energy into a series of online income projects, the latest of which he let go of after five months when it didn't produce, while his health has remained completely unaddressed.

He is under significant financial stress, and I believe he has genuinely given up on his body, possibly without even realizing it. When I raise the issue, he says he's, quote-unquote, "Just old." I don't believe that. I believe he's been abducted. Here's what I mean by that Three of his four medications are known to alter the microbiome, which is increasingly understood as the seat of personality, mood, and motivation.

His taste receptors have been so bludgeoned over time that he requires hyperpalatable food. That's food engineered with specific combinations of fat, sugar, sodium, or carbohydrates that strongly activate the brain's reward system, and he cannot access the pleasure of simple whole food, the [00:59:00] very thing that would begin to restore him.

Jordan Harbinger: The timing of this is impeccable because during the break I went and got a Funyun. Do you know what that is? Of course. There was a fi- uh, some Funyuns on our kitchen island and I was like, I didn't grow up with these, and I was like, "What are these? What do th- these things taste like?" I d- and it is a fake, super crunchy, super duper salty, and I can only imagine fried and trans fatty fake onion.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This husband's favorite snack for sure.

Jordan Harbinger: I ate one and I was like, "Yep, I'm good for Q3. I'm I don't need another one until the holidays."

Gabriel Mizrahi: You're disqualifying yourself from offering advice to this poor woman who's trying to save her husband.

Jordan Harbinger: I know, but oh my gosh. I d- I get it. It was like way too much flavor at once and I was like, who, why would you want to do this to yourself?

Man, so look, but look, this, I'm a guy who loves Cheetos. I don't really have a l- lot of room to talk here, but I've learned a decent amount about the microbiome from doing the show. I would not say I have a sophisticated understanding of it personally, but I know people talk about how it's the second [01:00:00] brain or whatever.

Candidly, I don't buy that our mood and personality reside there. I'm sure our gut influences a lot of things, but that's very different than things living in the gut that are your personality. There are a lot of misconceptions about the gut biome, especially in wellness circles. For example, people love to talk about how n- you know, 90% of the body's serotonin is produced by these special cells lining the intestine.

That is true. But that serotonin does not cross the blood-brain barrier. Your brain makes its own serotonin separately.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Ah, I always wondered about that. Interesting. And obviously mood is also still created by the brain, right? Like, that hasn't changed.

Jordan Harbinger: Correct. If it's not, well, how do SSRIs work? Because they go to your stomach?

I mean, come on. I, I digress. Medical professionals have backed up these points. I'm not just speculating here. But the point is, the gut is important. I'm sure it's profoundly affected by diet, like everything else in the body. But believing he's been abducted by his medications or big pharma, look, I get what you're getting at.

I don't know if I can go in for that kind of thing. However, that's [01:01:00] not even super relevant to your question, I suppose. This thing about whole foods being blunted by hyper-palatable foods, that-

Gabriel Mizrahi: That is very real ...

Jordan Harbinger: clearly, that is a real thing, and this is one of the main plagues of the West, especially in America, the cause of so much obesity and disease and poor mood, and it's scary.

It's actually crazy how if you eat enough Cheez-Its and Cheetos and french fries and Oreos and stuff, your body, and I'm speaking from personal experience here, your body learns to crave that garbage, and it really does lose its taste for lettuce and strawberries and guacamole and sweet potatoes and stuff.

It's almost like you're traumatizing your taste buds or something.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, orbitofrontal cortex trauma or something- Yeah ... like that. It's almost like you have to heal and retrain your brain to enjoy what it is supposed to enjoy naturally and not what it has been given artificially. Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: To me, this is one aspect of our low-key dystopia, y- our food situation.

Obviously, it's worse in certain places. Anyway, carry on.

Gabriel Mizrahi: While I know this clinically, I cannot convey it to him personally. It's as though I'm screaming, "Discipline equals freedom," but he can't hear it. He has [01:02:00] become, in my view, another casualty of conventional allopathic medicine, a system that manages symptoms and creates dependencies rather than restoring the person underneath.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Look, I'm not a medical conspiracy theorist or a super hippie, but you're not wrong about some of this, and it's, yeah, it is scary to think about. It's scary to watch.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Here's what makes this hard. I love him, full stop.

Jordan Harbinger: Thank you. That's our go-to catchphrase. Let's normalize full stop. Remember those one-star reviews where the people thought we made that up?

Gabriel Mizrahi: He carried me through the most tumultuous years of my life. This relationship has irreplaceable value, and yet on the darkest days, I question whether watching him recede is more painful than if he weren't in my life at all. I'm not proud of that thought, but it's honest Still, I'm not interested in leaving.

I'm interested in finding a way to make him feel genuinely seen, heard, and appreciated while somehow motivating him to break what I can only describe as an addictive orientation toward medication [01:03:00] as the solution.

Jordan Harbinger: That's very compassionate of you, especially after years of this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, but what kind of compassion, Jordan?

Which one? Arseny's sitting listening to this episode going, "I know which one. I'm right in." Let us know. Which one does she need to get through to him? I have the knowledge, the supplements, the support. What I don't have is the key to reaching someone who is defeated, financially ashamed, and convinced that solving poverty solves everything else.

That's a whole new variable in this story, Jordan.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a, a different show. But yeah, that is a whole new variable. There's a lot of people in that situation.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I think this is all related. I'm excited to get into this. So she wraps up, how do I love him well through this without losing myself or my attraction to him in the process?

And how do I help someone reclaim themselves when they don't yet know that they've been taken? Signed, My husband's resistant and captured by the system. That's trying to convince him that his problems, he can't fix them, but I need [01:04:00] to assist him with the help of my wisdom and not just dismiss him or endlessly contradict him.

Jordan Harbinger: You know that other advice shows just use, like, waiting as the name, right? They-

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm not sure what you're

Jordan Harbinger: getting at ... like, Singles in Seattle. Remember that famously? They're three words long maximum, kind of.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Just saying.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What, do you hate innovation? What, are you complaining? Ugh.

Jordan Harbinger: But this is a tough question though, man, just to abruptly change the subject.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure.

Jordan Harbinger: So first of all, I'm very sorry you guys are going through this. This would be hard for any spouse to watch, and it must be torture when you're a vegan wellness practitioner who watched her entire nuclear family die of cardiovascular disease. My goodness. Like I said, the fact that you don't want to ditch your husband, you want to make him feel heard and supported, that is amazing, and it says a lot about you.

I'm not sure that I'd be as patient or as generous, if I'm being honest. I'm obviously also very sorry for him. It sounds like he's really going through it in a variety of ways. And it's such a tough cycle, because when you're struggling in life, it's really easy to neglect and damage your body. But when you neglect and [01:05:00] damage your body, you struggle more, and it's really...

It gets hard to change gears. It's very tough. Gabe, what is your read on w- what this guy's going through? Like, what, what's the root here? Because she's mentioned he's under financial stress. Okay. There's this series of side hustles that fizzled/he gave up on at least one of them before it could take off.

But this must have started even earlier than that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She's not telling us his whole history, but I assume that's the case. Whatever the cause is, it sounds to me like this guy has reached a level of almost, like, nihilism when it comes to his body and his health, just like, "What's the point? Why does it even matter?

I just want calories. I just want taste. What can I even do about this health stuff? It's too hard, so I'm not going to try."

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, so he's just given up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But then it's also hard to give up on something you don't even realize is important in the first place.

Jordan Harbinger: Or maybe he's just straight up refusing to confront how serious this is in the first place.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I suspect on some level he knows it's serious, right? In his body, he must feel not great, right? Although maybe he's forgotten what good feels like, if he ever was well. So he kind of knows, even if he's not fully [01:06:00] conscious of it. But I think this kind of nihilism, whether it's about physical health or financial health or relationships or whatever, this persistent indifference I think usually has a few strands.

One strand is, it's just too hard, man. It's just too daunting and so I'm going to choose on some level to not care about it because then I don't have to face it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I could totally see that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Another strand might be that that response contains some interesting information, including potentially a message for his wife, maybe some kind of protest against the difficulty of getting healthy, kind of like how we talk about with depression sometimes.

Jordan Harbinger: The protest being, I don't want to, I'm resisting because it's hard because I know it's so important.

Gabriel Mizrahi: What's interesting about that is I think that confirms that deep down he knows that this matters and he feels unequal to the task, which might be the level on which his wife can reach him, but we'll talk about that in a second.

It's a really good question, though. What is at the root of nihilism, which is by definition a kind of nothingness, right? It's a lack of meaning. If there is a [01:07:00] root to that, I think it must have something to do with the deep desire to have meaning, to connect to something, to feel good, which we are wired for, as she knows, and which we require to stay alive.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, and which is obviously the reality when it comes to something like our health, our physical body, which is non-negotiable.

Gabriel Mizrahi: This is not religion. This is not politics. Either your heart works well or it doesn't work well. Either your blood pressure is through the roof or it's under control.

Jordan Harbinger: Either you're hitting Mickey D's drive-thru and sneaking Oreos in the car or you're not.

To not care about your health, your body, your functioning, mental and physical, this isn't just another fair choice. It's a failure to appreciate the inherent importance of your life, isn't it?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, and it's a failure of self-interest, you know, like his interest. It's also a failure of self-love. I kind of hate to use that word, but that's what it is.

Maybe framing it as a failure is not super helpful. Here, it's more like he's lost his connection with something very precious, right? His body, himself, and he doesn't even know how [01:08:00] great it would be if he recovered it, and that's the bind that she's in.

Jordan Harbinger: I also want to throw out one other theory here, which is sometimes people give up on themselves, whether it's with health or fitness or dating or whatever, not because they don't care, but because they've hit their head against the wall so many damn times and failed that they've generated enough evidence, accurate or not, that there's just no point in continuing to try.

And so at a certain point, your brain just goes, "Okay, not worth it. No, thanks."

Gabriel Mizrahi: So the nihilism might be born from some legitimate data.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Um, look, it's one of the reasons I got a trainer, right? Because I, I've lifted weights in college. I lifted in high school. I lifted in middle school. I started really early.

And then when I got older, I kept lifting weights, but not nearly as often, right? And not nearly as hard because I was older and I had other stuff to do, and it was like, "Oh, this isn't working anymore. I guess I'm just going to be overweight like a lot of people." And then I hired my friend who ran the training company, gave me a trainer, and the trainer was like, "No, no, no, there's tons of fit people that lift weights really hard.

I just need to, like, make you do it." And that worked for me. I realize not everybody can just [01:09:00] hire a trainer, and that's not even the solution for the problem here especially, but it's very tough to get rid of all years of data that you've accumulated and gathered through lived experience. It's really tough to turn that around sometimes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So more compassion then for him potentially.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But okay, whatever the reason, she wants to reach her husband. I'm trying to imagine what kind of script would reach him when being on four different medications and his wife telling him he's going to die like her family and having doctors tell him, "Hey, you don't really need these.

You can turn yourself around with some basic practices." When those things didn't work, what's the magic set of words that will, right? It, it's tough, but a moment ago you touched on this layer of protest, this layer of I know on some level this is crucial, but I'm too ill-equipped, too overwhelmed to really begin.

Maybe she can meet him there by saying basically, "Honey, I've tried to talk to you many, many times in many different ways over the last few years about your health. I can see it's been hard for you to change your habits, to take a few steps towards some healthy shifts. As you know, this really freaks me out.

[01:10:00] I see you going down a very dangerous path and a totally avoidable path. You know that I've seen firsthand what these habits do to people. I'm watching it happen all over again with you, and I do not think this is going to end well. You've heard it from me. You've heard it from your doctors. I have to assume on some level you know that.

And the question I'm asking myself is: How can I reach this person I love? How can I support this person who supported me in so many ways so we can live the longest, healthiest, happiest lives possible? Maybe you literally say, "I'm going to be honest. I'm out of moves here. I'm very sad. I'm pretty scared. I feel a little hurt you're not taking care of yourself in these very basic ways.

I'm honestly not sure what it's going to take to make you wake up and make some changes, but I'm still here. I love you. I want to see you thrive, so I have just a few questions for you. First, do you understand how serious this is? Do you see the path that you're going down?" Second, what do you feel is standing in your way to making some changes?

Please talk to me. I'm [01:11:00] here. That's how I would reopen this conversation. It's going to be a tough one, though. Don't do it when he's checking his email or whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, but that's a really nice script. I would offer one more question for him, which is how are you feeling about your life in general these days?

What does this whole health conversation bring up for you? Because I think the way he takes care of his body, that is just a symptom of something else. So the answer probably won't originate with the medicine or the food stuff, interestingly.

Jordan Harbinger: That is a good point. But yeah, ugh, this needs to be a conversation, not a lecture.

A lecture he's going to sit through, he's going to nod along, he might even agree with you, but on some level he's just thinking, "All right, I'm- this'll be over soon. Nod along until I can go back to the man cave and pound some chicken nuggies." But a conversation, one that you respectfully force by asking good questions and gently holding his feet to the fire, that has the potential to shift things.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, so I agree with everything we're saying, and I'm going to say what I often say, which is she cannot make him care about this if he doesn't want to.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. She can only engage him in a process that'll [01:12:00] hopefully lead him to care.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

Jordan Harbinger: To tap back into that innate caring, that hope that he seems to have lost, which is one thing working in their favor.

I think the moment this guy makes one or two changes, starts eating salads for dinner, starts going for walks once a day, he's immediately going to feel better. He's going to lose a few pounds. He's going to have more energy and be thinking clearer. After a couple months, he's going to get off a medication or two, and he's going to be like, "Wow, holy crap, this actually works.

I feel a lot better. I cannot believe I forgot how good this feels." That's what happened to me, right? I, I ended up losing weight, and I was like, "Wow, I can get up off the floor. I'm flexible. My hip pain went away. My knee pain went away." How he feels is really going to be the best evidence for her argument and the best motivation for him to continue.

But there's that chicken egg situation, right, where it's like, well, okay, which comes first, the motivation or the action?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Action. 95% of the time I think it's action.

Jordan Harbinger: I agree, but her husband has a lot of inertia to overcome, a lot of beliefs, and a lot of narratives, and a lot of patterns. So there might be a component here of I need you to trust me [01:13:00] on this.

I need you to give this a real try and think of it as an experiment. Do it for a month. Let's see what happens. Then you tell me if it's worth continuing. That wouldn't be my go-to strategy. I think the first conversation is the right one. But the second approach, it might come in handy if it gets to the point where he's like, "Oh, you're right.

I know this is important. I'm just overwhelmed. I'm depressed. I'm stressed. I don't know where to begin." Then maybe you become his, you know, motivational coach and give him a push start.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I know we're going pretty hard in the pain on this one, but I'm just thinking this whole side hustle online income thing is really interesting because neglecting his health might be a response to his money stress.

Or losing money/giving up on things before he can succeed, that might be a symptom of the health stuff. Or both of them are symptoms of a deeper issue, which might be that lack of meaning we were talking about. You know, poor values around his health, around his obligations to his wife. Perhaps a tendency to go into denial, to retreat into his own reality, whether it's believing that these [01:14:00] side hustles will immediately generate more money or that solving his poverty will solve everything else or believing that he's not actually hurting himself, he's just, quote-unquote, "old."

Or it might be a struggle to commit and stick with things, which is, once again, usually a failure of relationship with self.

Jordan Harbinger: Yep, so interesting. I agree that the money stuff and the health stuff are connected. That would be a powerful thing for her to help him hone in on in this conversation.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I just wonder if maybe that's the lever that she's looking for if simply changing his behavior doesn't work.

But the thing is, it's going to be a deep dig. He has to be willing to go there.

Jordan Harbinger: And he'd still have to do something about it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And he'd still have to do something about it. And also, now I'm sitting here wondering, like, what happens if he doesn't? Where does this go?

Jordan Harbinger: If he doesn't, yeah, then we're in a different conversation, which is acceptance, grief, and boundaries.

For example, she might have to accept that she can't save her husband here and learn to live with a spouse who is not taking care of his health and cope with the tough feelings that come with that. Or she might decide that she can't tell him to stop [01:15:00] eating certain things or to exercise, but she can say, "I'm not willing to live with somebody who's going to slowly, willingly kill themselves over the next 20 years."

And to be clear, I am not advising her to say that. I'm saying these are the moves that she explores if she gets nowhere with her husband on the first steps. I don't know if she needs to go there yet. I think there's still hope. So that's how you love him well through this process, by supporting him without enabling him, by challenging him without alienating him, and by empathizing with him without treating him with kid gloves.

It's a tricky line to walk.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, and I also suspect that that's how you do this without losing yourself in the process. And when you say that, I think you mean without compromising on my values or somehow denying my feelings or my interests in my husband's health. I think that depends on how honest you are with him.

It's probably also how you can maximize the chances that you won't lose your attraction to him along the way, because that attraction does not just depend on his physical health, right? It depends on your intimacy, your connection, your [01:16:00] communication, all of which require you to speak up and be honest, and all of which require him to listen and hopefully to grow.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, and if he finally responds to all this, the attraction is probably going to grow. If he doesn't, again, you cross that bridge when you get there.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right, and then you make a vegan picnic on the other side that he won't touch.

Jordan Harbinger: A whole food buffet for one. Your husband is lucky to have you looking out for him.

I really do hope he can receive your love and support, and we're rooting for both of you guys. Good luck. You know, supporting the show sponsors will dramatically improve your mood and longevity. It's science. We'll be right back.

If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. That is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. They're all searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. If that doesn't work, something's going wrong, can't find a code, email us Jordan@jordanharbinger.com.

We're happy to dig up codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. [01:17:00] All right, now for the recommendation of the week. I

Lip Filla Clip: am addicted to lip filler.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My recommendation of the week, bit of a throwback now because it's officially come to an end, I believe, but it very much lives on on the internet, and I hope will for a long, long time.

It is a podcast called My Dad Wrote a Porno. Jordan, have you ever heard of this show?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Uh, it was really popular, and I also remember you telling me about it, like, five years ago.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Ah, I've already told you about it. That's hilarious. This is one of the funniest podcasts I have ever listened- funniest things in general I've ever consumed.

The premise is amazing. So basically, the podcast started when one of the hosts, Jamie Morton, found out that his very low-key, very respectable retired Irish father had written an absolutely unhinged and terrible series of erotic novels that he called Belinda Blinked. I think he was, like, 70 years old or older or something.

And he wrote it under a pen name Rocky Flintstone, which is so ridiculous. And I think if I remember [01:18:00] correctly, the story is he went home for Christmas one year and his dad was like, "I wrote something." And he went into the other room to read the first chapter and he was like, "This is so spectacularly, bewilderingly terrible, but somehow is also a work of accidental genius."

So in a stroke of genius of his own, this guy Jamie got together with two of his close friends, this guy James, this woman Alice, and for years they would get together and read one chapter of this book aloud at a time and just mercilessly dissect his dad's very weird understanding of sex and anatomy and the business world, because the book takes place in the corporate world.

Just, like, his understanding of basic human behavior is so bizarre and it's so funny. And every single line, every single detail, every single creative choice in these books is just brilliant. But when you add in the hosts' banter and commentary, it really does become high art. So what I love most about this show and the reason it climbed into people's hearts, I think, is the chemistry among the three hosts.

They're just magic together. They [01:19:00] regularly get into laughing fits and they have these insane running jokes for years and they built out this increasingly elaborate mythology around the Belinda Blinked universe, and it's just truly some of the finest British banter and comedy I've ever heard. So if you need something completely ridiculous and joyful in your life, highly recommend starting from episode one.

I think you're going to die when you hear this show. It's so good. I don't often recommend other podcasts, and not just because we don't want to create competition for ourselves. It's just that there are not that many great ones out there that just grab you, but this one did, and I... Still, when I need a laugh, I'll go back and listen to an old episode.

So I hope you enjoy it. We'll link to it in the show notes.

Jordan Harbinger: All right. What's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: "Dear Jordan and Gabe, over the last few years I've turned into the person I dreamed I could be as a kid I'm great at my job. I do woodworking and rock climbing as hobbies. I have a dog who is my heart and soul, friends I love, and a positive outlook on life.

Jordan Harbinger: Amazing. Good opening. Well done, friend.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But the next step is a biggie. I've [01:20:00] always dreamed of buying a plot of land, planting my own forest, building my own humble wood cabin, and growing my own food. Soon I will inherit a significant enough fund to start looking at a deposit for buying a small plot of land in the north of England I could go with the safe option and just buy an already built bungalow in a little town.

But I realized if I don't do this now, the chance will pass me by, and this is something I know I'll spend the rest of my life wishing I had the balls to do. So I'm doing what humans have done since time immemorial.

Jordan Harbinger: Writing into a podcast for advice.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, the way of our forefathers.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. So what she means is committing to building her own house and growing her own food?

Crazy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I thought she meant take a huge leap of faith, but I- Sure ... I guess it's both. So she goes on, "There are times it's going to suck so bad I'll want to give up. I'll doubt that I can do it, and it'll go wrong, and I'm certain I'll find the courage to stay in it and see it through on my own. But how do you prepare [01:21:00] yourself for the really big life commitments or adventures, especially when they're risky?

Do you have any advice on how to balance leaning into the risk but not totally skipping down the delulu lane to fulfill a dream? Signed, Train My Brain to Constrain and Stay Sane or Give It Free Reign, Go a Little Insane and Build My Domain on Delulu Lane."

Jordan Harbinger: Great questions. One of my favorite topics. How do you balance risk with realism, exuberance with responsibility?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Reminds me of the guy from a few weeks ago who was coding those apps and wondering if he might become the next Warren Buffett.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, the therapy app and trading platform guy, 100% yes. One of us, maybe it was you, said something about how all artists and entrepreneurs are a little delulu, but then you have to bring the delulu down to Earth by testing it against reality, and that's the solulu.

So fir- first of all, congratulations on becoming the person you dreamed of becoming as a kid. That's awesome. Building this full and successful life that brings you joy, that is a huge [01:22:00] accomplishment. You should be really proud. Second, exciting goal you've got here. I don't know how you're coming into the money.

If somebody passed away, sorry for your loss, but what a blessing to have the funds to realize this dream of yours. It sounds super cool and rewarding. But yeah, definitely a challenge. Building your own home, planting your own trees, growing your own food is really a huge undertaking. But also when society collapses, you're going to be in a great position.

That's the reward for being self-sufficient, you know, not dying first when the apocalypse goes down.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And I assume because we're about to help you make it happen, there will be a room in your house for us when shit goes down. Just putting that out there.

Jordan Harbinger: I should just build that into the disclaimer this week.

Remember, I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Also, when the supply chain collapses, we get quartering rights.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right, and the beds must be made up with Boll & Branch sheets. Just saying.

Jordan Harbinger: Seems reasonable to me. I love that in this apocalypse scenario, our sponsors are still just churning out home staples.

I hope they because going to keep doing the show from your country bunker. Anyway, I really appreciate that you're going into this with eyes wide open. You know it's going to suck and it's going to get hard. You know [01:23:00] you're going to have to stick with it through the parts that suck.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, I honestly think that's half the battle right there, just knowing it's going to come.

Jordan Harbinger: Just knowing that that is definitely going to happen, and it doesn't mean you've made a mistake or that this isn't your true dream or that you should give up, but that you'll have to go through these periods of suck to realize the vision. So you're already ahead of the game. And when that happens, I think it'll be important for you to remember why you're doing this, to keep your purpose alive so you'll want to keep going. One way to do that is to write it down, read it back to yourself, keep journaling about it.

Another is to talk to a few close friends about it. Text them or invite them to lunch when you're struggling. Have them mirror back to you why you're doing this. Another is just to, like, actively visualize the dream. Really indulge your imagination the way children do. When you walk around the property while you're working on it, picture the cabin and the trees and the garden.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Our wing of the house, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Just saying.

Jordan Harbinger: Our wing with two king size beds and the aforementioned Boll & Branch sheets that we'll sleep in like British soldiers in the American colonies. That'll get you through.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The vision [01:24:00] of two presumptuous podcasters scream talking into their microphones while you try to enjoy your nettle tea in the forest in peace is hilarious.

Jordan Harbinger: Sounds like a party to me, man. The other thing that helps, surround yourself with good people who can help you make this happen. I assume you will not literally be building the house on your own. You need an architect and a builder even if you chip in, unless you're secretly a licensed carpenter or something and that you really can do this, but I'm pretty sure this is not a solo job.

But also invite friends and family to visit the property along the way. Make plans with them on the property that you can look forward to. Maybe hire an experienced gardener to teach you how to grow food. Find a YouTube channel or a Discord community that's focused on home renovation and landscaping and share your story with them.

Make the vision real by including other people in it. The team is everything.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Great advice. I also think, and I'm about to contradict Jordan a little bit, but hear me out. I also think it's sometimes helpful to not think about your purpose when things get hard.

Jordan Harbinger: How dare you undermine me on a question related to the apocalypse [01:25:00] cabin that I brought you into.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, you brought-- I chose the letter, bro. What are you talking about? If I didn't choose the letter, we wouldn't even, we wouldn't even be in the forest.

Jordan Harbinger: You chose the letter, but I, I'm the one that's getting us into the cabin, obviously.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You're the one getting us the Boll &

Jordan Harbinger: Branch sheets. That's right. Damn it.

You wouldn't have even thought of that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Look, if you're going to be like this, I would rather ride out the apocalypse elsewhere, okay? Fine. But here's what I'm getting at. It's really easy to go from the builder just told me the project has been set back three months. You know, I can't figure out how to plant zucchini or whatever.

I have no idea how to landscape a backyard. To go from that kind of thinking to I'm not experienced enough, I'm not passionate enough, this dream is just pointless. That's when you're going to want to tap into your purpose again, and if you can, great. But sometimes knowing your why still isn't enough to make things easy, you know?

Sometimes it's just a nice idea, and it's not enough to overcome the challenges that you are facing today. So when that happens, I would say maybe stay micro. Do not go macro. Do not indulge the part of your brain that is going to go, "Is [01:26:00] this even worthwhile? What was I thinking? Why did I try? What was my vision?"

You know it's worthwhile. You said this has been meaningful to you since you were a kid. You committed to this because it matters. So I find that sometimes the best thing you can do is just focus on the next task. You know, plant a new row, you paint one more wall, you rake the driveway, call up a vendor, you order the gravel, whatever.

Whatever it is you have to do. And what I find over and over again is by delving back into the task at hand instead of fixating on, you know, some abstract purpose, you create that meaning again and again. You remember why you are doing something by doing it, and that sustains you.

Jordan Harbinger: I actually fully agree with that despite what I just said.

There's something about action that reconnects you with purpose way better than, you know, endless reflecting. Because at the end of the day, you still got to build a house, right? So just build the house I would also remember that if things get hard, that's only going to make the end result more meaningful. I don't obviously wish you more problems than you need, but solving the problem is the journey.

The problems make the purpose [01:27:00] even stronger. And when it's done, you're going to look back at the struggle with fondness, and it's going to make the cabin just so much sweeter. We've talked about this a bunch over the years. Feeling miserable while pursuing something meaningful i- is not a sign that you are failing.

It's just the cost of caring deeply about something difficult and then seeing it through.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Purpose does not equal happiness, never. Quite the opposite sometimes.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, sometimes it can make you more unhappy, but that's only because you care actually, and it makes you sign up for bigger challenges.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And by the way, about balancing embracing the risk and not becoming completely delulu, I trust that you're going to manage this project responsibly in a way where you're not going to get in over your head or put yourself at unnecessary risk.

You will hire solid contractors. You will learn how to plant a forest and build a garden, and you'll make sure that you have enough money to cover the expenses and all of that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, this is crucial. She needs to do her diligence on the people that she hires. My experience, cheap contractors, same with cheap lawyers, cheap equipment, cheap everything, it always ends up being the [01:28:00] most expensive.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it really does. So obviously, don't be delulu in that regard. That's just being reckless. Also, be on top of all your practicals and the logistics, your permitting, your taxes, all of that. I imagine there's a kind of pie in the sky thinking that can lead people to neglect those details or just do them poorly because, you know, they're only focused on the big picture dream.

But obviously, you cannot get in trouble with, uh, what do you guys call it over there? Revenue and Customs? I think that's what you call it. The IRS here.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Or the permitting office or whatever, you know, whatever body you need to satisfy.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Also, she's about to get a small windfall, right?

Psychologically, I find that that can create a feeling of wealth and security that can lead to less than ideal decisions, and it puts a little more pressure on her to be successful. So when you're trying to decide when and where to spend money, a good question to ask yourself is, would you think it's as smart of a move if the money were coming in one paycheck at a time?

In other words, how would you spend this money if you didn't have all of [01:29:00] it in the bank at once? That's the diagnostic. But look, all of these mindsets and practices we're talking about, they're ways of making that delulu not delulu. You know? Uh, uh, it's a l- little crazy in a good way. Buy a plot of land, build a cabin, grow a garden, create this life for yourself, especially your first time, but it's not insane totally if you build a budget and you do your homework and you surround yourself with good people and you put in the work.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Delulu plus, uh, drudgery. That's the formula. Delulury.

Jordan Harbinger: Delulury, yes. So I love that you have this dream, my friend. I can hear how much it lights you up, and it's inspiring. It really is. Tap into your delulury, and you're going to be great. Oh, and Gabe's very particular about his English breakfast tea in the morning, so he, he needs like a nice kettle.

Give it a little heft.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, please. And Jordan likes the room at exactly 68 degrees to sleep, so we're going to need that.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm a REM princess. What can I say? After the apocalypse, I'm going to be the Duke of Deep Sleep over there in the UK. Don't forget to check out our episodes with Sean Hemeon, the meth-dealing Mormon on a redemption tour, and our [01:30:00] Skeptical Sunday on alphas if you haven't done so yet.

The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build that for free in our Six Minute Networking course. It's free, it's not schmoozy, and it's on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com.

Dig the well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. Show notes and transcripts are on the website. Advertisers, deals, ways to support the show also on the website at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm @jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn.

Gabe's on Insta @gabrielmizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show.

Dr. Margolis' input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature, and it does not represent or indicate an [01:31:00] established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. Remember, we rise by lifting others.

Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.