900: Is Three a Crowd When Parents Swing Out Loud? | Feedback Friday

900: Is Three a Crowd When Parents Swing Out Loud? | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the Stevia packet sweetening up this occasionally bitter cup of life conundra, Gabriel Mizrahi.

[00:00:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Did you say [s-te-via]?

[00:00:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I prefer [s-te-via].

[00:00:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's not [s-tee-via]?

[00:00:19] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, I don't know, that sounds like somebody's name that they made up for their kid.

[00:00:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: [Steve-ia]?

[00:00:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's like, "Oh, we named our daughter Stevia because our dad is Stevie. It just sounds dumb to me." It's [s-te-via], isn't it? Come on.

[00:00:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Doesn't sound like that.

[00:00:32] Jordan Harbinger: Wait. Is it really [s-tee-via]? Now, I just feel dumb.

[00:00:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think it's [s-tee-via]. I think it is [s-tee-via].

[00:00:38] Jordan Harbinger: Whatever, it's [s-te-via] forever now.

[00:00:39] On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people.

[00:00:44] Sounds like a European pronunciation — [s-te-via].

[00:00:47] We turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker, like somebody who mispronounces the name of a very simple artificial sweetener.

[00:00:59] During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from hostage negotiators and Russian spies, four-star generals and rocket scientists. All the way through to legendary Hollywood directors, but not right now because everybody's still on freaking strike and no sign of that letting up, which has worked wonders for our guest list, by the way.

[00:01:17] This week, we had Forrest Galante back on the show. This guy is so incredible. Forrest Galante goes and finds like extinct animals and—

[00:01:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:25] Jordan Harbinger: —things that we thought were never to be seen again. This guy's just such a fascinating character. We also had my friend Jen Cohen on becoming bold. She's a very successful person. And, how do I put this the right way? Because we are friends and I don't want to offend her. It's because of her work ethic, but it's not because of her giant brain. It's because of her giant level of guts. How's that? She just really goes for it, and she's got some practical takeaways and lessons on how to become a person who does that, and I thought that was pretty interesting. She's punching above her weight as far as what she's achieved in many ways, and I wanted to harness that a little bit. And we love her.

[00:02:01] On Fridays, though, we share stories, we take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and mercilessly roast Gabriel for his knowledge of obscure sex terms and foreign languages.

[00:02:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Back to that, huh?

[00:02:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, can't stop thinking about the word frottage, Gabe. Frottage. Thanks for that.

[00:02:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: You are welcome. I'll just keep sprinkling those in from time to time, if you'd like. We'll just hit every weird sex word in every weird language.

[00:02:22] Jordan Harbinger: Let's do it.

[00:02:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: By the way, Jordan, I'm not sure if you noticed, but this is episode 900.

[00:02:27] Jordan Harbinger: I did notice, and first of all, that's amazing, really snuck up on me, as it always does. And it was a fun surprise. You know, we put out three, four episodes a week.

[00:02:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:35] Jordan Harbinger: We're on this treadmill, doing episode after episode. You forget how much stuff you're putting out until you look at the feed and you're like, wow, we've done 900 episodes. We're almost at a thousand, this is wild. And when I look at my past show, people are like, "Wow, you've done almost 900 hours of content." I'm like, "Yeah, in addition to the 700 that I did before, we started from zero." It's just really something. So look, thank you all for sticking with us, getting to this incredible milestone. It's going to be next level when we hit episode 1,000.

[00:03:02] It's one of those things where like, yeah, we're going to do something special. And then, we're going to be like, oh crap, this is next week. And we're going to air a regular episode, nothing celebratory other than a note in the intro. But I can't wait for producer Bob to yell at us for hitting our character limit on the episode titles when we have to move to four digits. He's always like, "Ooh, that one doesn't fit with the end quote and I'm not putting it in without the quotes because my OCD grammar is not allowing me to do it." But I guess champagne problems.

[00:03:26] Between the AI chatbot and the new newsletter, I hope you guys are enjoying our deep library of past episodes. So many amazing guests, so many gems in there. It really is a body of work that I'm really proud of. And I'm grateful to each and every one of you for making it possible for us to do this.

[00:03:41] All right, as always, fun ones, doozies, let's dive in. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

[00:03:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, my husband and I developed a friendship with another couple, let's call them Adam and Susie when our now teenage daughters became best friends in preschool. Since then, we've celebrated countless holidays and milestones, spent hours together on the sidelines of sporting events, and supported each other through the challenges of being working parents. Then, a couple of years ago, our friends abruptly began spending many weekends in a nearby city without their children. We didn't give it much thought and gladly welcomed their daughter into our home while they were away. Later, Susie told me that the purpose of these trips was to drink and visit strip clubs.

[00:04:23] Okay.

[00:04:24] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:04:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:04:25] Jordan Harbinger: Boy, that escalated quickly. [Anchorman]

[00:04:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: I love that soundbite so much.

[00:04:32] Jordan Harbinger: I wasn't expecting that.

[00:04:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Neither did she, apparently because she writes—

[00:04:35] I was surprised as I knew these people to be devout Christians and frequent churchgoers.

[00:04:40] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:04:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Although their idea of a fun weekend vastly differs from mine, my husband and I decided that their recreation was ultimately harmless and chose to maintain the friendship and keep providing a comfortable space for their daughter. A year later, though, they began having intense friendships with various couples. These friends would often attend events where we were present and Adam and Susie were always very touchy and affectionate with their new companions. We eventually arrived at the assumption that they're swingers.

[00:05:09] Jordan Harbinger: Yes, that sounds like what it is. Also, how are you a frequent churchgoer when you're spending weekends in another city? And I can't imagine you show up to church at that point, or do you just like, "Oh, yeah, we miss church again because we were doing blow with prostitutes at a strip club in Reno again."

[00:05:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: They have churches in Reno, too, Jordan. They could have just gone to a different parish.

[00:05:28] Jordan Harbinger: But who stays up until 7 a.m. after going to Deja Vu or whatever and then, just rolls straight into church with glitter stuck to your chest?

[00:05:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a fantastic image and I feel like Adam and Susie might do that.

[00:05:42] Jordan Harbinger: Look, they're sitting in Church during the week, getting their freak on during the weekends. It's interesting. I'm with you. It's totally their choice, but it is, yeah, it's interesting.

[00:05:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Then, recently, a new friend entered the picture. Emma is a decades younger woman going through a divorce, and she now spends all of Susie's days off at their house, and even stays entire weekends, even though they don't have a spare bedroom.

[00:06:03] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh.

[00:06:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, interesting. So, this might answer my big question, which is, do their children know about all this?

[00:06:10] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I had the same thought, but the daughter's a teenager now, so of course. Emma stays for days at a time. She's crashing in the parent's bedroom, ostensibly, because there's no guest room with a futon. So the daughter must have some clue what's going on. If she doesn't—

[00:06:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think so.

[00:06:23] Jordan Harbinger: —she's going to know soon, or she's a complete knucklehead and has her head in the sand.

[00:06:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: They're not playing Twister in the bedroom.

[00:06:29] Jordan Harbinger: Well, they kind of are.

[00:06:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, they kind of are. Just not the same kind of Twister.

[00:06:33] Jordan Harbinger: No, the kind you see on a '90s t-shirt. But I'm imagining Emma is walking out of dad's bedroom in the morning wearing Mom's robe, and they're all eating cereal together in the morning. And I'm just wildly speculating here, but I feel like that's the scene, unless they are being super stealth about it, but a parent can't be more stealth than a teenager. You're trying to sneak someone out of the house and the teenager's like, seeing them crawl out the window as they're waiting to crawl out that same window and go out with their own friends, I don't think that's going to work.

[00:07:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, you're trying to outsmart the master. So like, you mean if Emma sets her alarm for like five in the morning and sneaks back into the living room and pretends she just slept on the couch all night?

[00:07:07] Jordan Harbinger: Right, says she's staying at a Motel 6 nearby but really she's just being Susie's big spoon.

[00:07:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Or Susie and Adam's, I don't — what's the bologna in their sandwich? I don't understand the right metaphor here.

[00:07:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the point is, it sounds like they're not hiding this because you can't and it has to be pretty much out in the open.

[00:07:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: So, maybe they don't think their kids understand, but I think they must.

[00:07:27] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Anyway, the letter goes on.

[00:07:29] Recently, Susie requested that Emma attend a small baby shower when the mom-to-be and Emma had never met. I've also witnessed several intimate goodbye hugs between the two women and saw them holding hands and giddily bantering like smitten teens while out on a walk with Adam. There have also been social media posts with the ladies posing in positions that scream romance. A mutual friend hosted a holiday gathering recently and Susie simply assumed that Emma was invited and stated, "I think Emma's bringing wine." So—

[00:08:00] Jordan Harbinger: They're really putting this throuple thing out there. It's almost like they want people to know, which tells me they probably don't care what people think.

[00:08:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:08:08] Jordan Harbinger: And I guess more power to them for that. Carry on.

[00:08:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: To be clear, I am not homophobic and believe that successful parenting can be achieved in a variety of non-conventional ways but we're concerned about how this might be affecting their children.

[00:08:22] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:08:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's fair.

[00:08:23] Jordan Harbinger: It is fair. That's really my only concern at this point, to be honest. They can do whatever they want in their private life. It sounds like it's all in the up and up, and I'm sure it's probably fun. It's not my idea of fun, getting schwasted at the booby bungalow in Minneapolis or whatever, swiping right on fresh divorcees in the field app. But whatever, to each his own, spice it up.

[00:08:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Did you just say the booby bungalow?

[00:08:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the booby bungalow. I already used Deja Vu, which is a real place, who didn't pay for the mention.

[00:08:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's so good.

[00:08:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:08:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: All right, carry on, I'm sorry.

[00:08:54] Jordan Harbinger: There's got to be a place called the booby bungalow, I'm going to Google it later. But what their kids make of all this? Any strange messages that they're picking up? That's tricky and not necessarily healthy.

[00:09:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: So the letter goes on.

[00:09:05] Their oldest daughter who's at my home frequently, has suddenly become withdrawn and emotionally flat.

[00:09:10] Jordan Harbinger: There it is. That's my worry about this kind of stuff.

[00:09:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'd like to be a support for her if she needs it but I feel that I can't properly do this without more information about her parents' relationship and what their home life looks like. I'd like to ask Susie and Adam for clarity on their relationship with Emma, but I don't know if that's out of bounds. I now find myself avoiding encounters with my friends. Our lives are very entwined, and it would be nice to know what to expect from them going forward. Should I ask my friends for clarification? Or just continue to speculate? Signed, Seeking Clarity On This Throuple Without Causing a Kerfuffle.

[00:09:46] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So, you're walking a tricky line here. These are your friends, first and foremost, and the relationship you have with their daughter, well, it's secondary. And you have to be thoughtful about being there for her, without meddling too much in her parents' lives. But then, she's staying at your house a lot, and you're noticing these objectively worrisome signs. You want to help, and that's really hard when you don't know exactly what is going on.

[00:10:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: This is a tough one, Jordan. I'm a little confused here.

[00:10:14] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it is a hard one. I don't know if I totally agree with this thing you said, that you can't properly support their daughter without more information about her parents, what their home life looks like. You have a pretty good idea of what's going on over there. Could you be wrong? Maybe, but I doubt it. This sounds exactly like what you think it is. So when you hang out with her daughter, I think it's perfectly fine to say, "Hey, you seem a little quiet. Are you good? Everything okay?" And just invite her to talk. And if she doesn't want to, I would just drop it. But if she opens up, yeah, I would listen, I would make it safe for her to share. I would give her some space to talk about whatever she's going through, whatever it is about her parents or school or just being a teenager or something else entirely.

[00:10:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree. I think it would be really nice for their daughter to hear that from somebody else. I'm guessing she feels pretty comfortable with our friend here. I mean, she's best friends with their daughter forever, right? And it sounds like their house is a soft landing when her parents skip town to channel their inner PD Pablo or whatever, so she might appreciate the opportunity to talk. But I do think our friend here needs to be thoughtful about her agenda because she's obviously very curious about what her friends are up to. And if their daughter does open up to her, she might satisfy that curiosity. It would be the most normal thing in the world to want to get the goss from their daughter rather than asking her friends directly, but I worry about that a little bit because this conversation should really be about supporting their daughter, giving her a chance to open up safely, and not trying to suss out all the sordid stuff that's going on in her house so that she can finally be sure that they really are swingers.

[00:11:46] Jordan Harbinger: Right, I think her intentions here are good, but I could also see her going And where does Emma sleep? And what did you hear her say through the wall? And how does she like her oatmeal in the morning? I don't know, it's just weird.

[00:11:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:11:59] Jordan Harbinger: It's already awkward as hell for this teenager. She's praying nobody's looking at Mom's Instagram. So to highlight that, it's like, all right.

[00:12:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Just eating popcorn while she pumps this poor girl for information—

[00:12:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:12:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: —about her overly horny parents, totally.

[00:12:11] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: But also, if she does confirm some things about her friends, what then? Does she sit on that information? Does she share it with her husband? With her kids? Does she tell her friend, Susie, like, "So Maddie told me you and Emma are a thing, like, how come you never told me?" I'm unclear about what she would actually do if she found out the truth.

[00:12:28] Jordan Harbinger: Right, she needs to think through what position this might put her in because it could complicate things even further.

[00:12:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, if she does fish for information, the daughter could mention that to her parents, and then that could be a different problem. Or, they'll have a really good talk and the daughter won't say anything to her parents, but then she might feel like she's caught between her parents and our friend here, which is a whole other secret to deal with.

[00:12:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man, the lines here are confusing. Who does she have allegiance to primarily? The friends, the kids, herself?

[00:12:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. It's almost easier not knowing—

[00:12:58] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: And not talking about all this because then she's not entangled with all these people. But I totally understand why she wants to know, and on some level, as their friend, I feel like she, I don't know if deserves to know is the right word, but are we friends or are we not? Tell me, what's the deal? Why is Emma always at your house? So actually, I don't think it's out of bounds to ask them what is going on.

[00:13:17] You guys are extremely close. I think it's fine to say to them, or maybe just to Susie, if it's more of a one-on-one thing, just to ask, you know? So, "I noticed you've been spending a lot of time with Emma. Is she kind of part of the family now? Like, what's the deal there?" Just put it out there. You could even say, "So you guys are dating, right? Just so I understand." I think she'll sense that you're non-judgmental about it.

[00:13:39] Honestly, to Jordan's point, they might not mind that you ask. In fact, based on what you said about how brazen they're being, posting photos on Facebook and all that, they might actually love that you asked.

[00:13:48] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I was about to say, I think it's very likely Adam and Susie are like, "Well, I'm glad you asked. Let me tell you everything about our crazy, open, slash, poly, slash, swinger marriage."

[00:13:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:13:58] Jordan Harbinger: Again, no, no judgment. It actually sounds like a spicy, funny way to live. I mean, these people are posting sexy throuple pics on Facebook. They're holding hands in public. Come on, they're enjoying this. Or at a minimum, they're inviting these kinds of questions and they're throwing the flag out to see who maybe does something with that.

[00:14:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:16] Jordan Harbinger: Or the people who act awkward about that. So I'm with Gabe, I think you just ask them. And maybe you do that before talking to their daughter, so you have as much information as possible. Whether they spill the beans or clam up, either way that'll tell you a lot, and then you'll have more data about what their daughter might be going through.

[00:14:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: And in that conversation, if Susie's being pretty open, I also think it would be fair to ask her whether her kids know how they're responding to all this. If she's like, "Oh, they have no idea what's going on."

[00:14:41] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: You might want to say, "Uh, are you sure? Because Emma's spending entire weekends at your house. She's sleeping in your room. She's going to events with you guys. Maddie is like 14. Don't you think she at least wonders and maybe help her start to see that, which I think is important."

[00:14:56] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: And if Susie's like, "Oh, yeah, I know, but I don't know how to talk to the kids about this." Then, maybe you can help her figure out how to broach the subject, or better yet at their age, how to keep slightly better boundaries so that this lifestyle doesn't confuse the kids too much. Although that's not really your job, it's just something you could do as her friend if you wanted to.

[00:15:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, Gabe, I have a feeling that Adam and Susie are not the most attuned to their children.

[00:15:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:15:20] Jordan Harbinger: They're regularly dropping off their kids at other people's houses for entire weekends. They're carrying on with other people basically in front of their kids without acknowledging it. At least as far as we know.

[00:15:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:30] Jordan Harbinger: So they're either underestimating what kids know, what teenagers know, or they just don't care.

[00:15:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:36] Jordan Harbinger: And that's actually what I find problematic about this story. Not the lifestyle stuff, as unconventional and potentially weird as that might be to the outside observer, but the fact that mom and dad are in their own little bohemian free-love universe, and maybe not really thinking about how their kids perceive them—

[00:15:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:52] Jordan Harbinger: —what questions they're raising in their minds at an early age. And I don't mean questions like, "Is this a lifestyle that I could have to live?" I just mean, if you're going to do this sort of unconventional stuff, I feel like you have to be really open and they have to be totally fine asking questions and be on the same page. Because otherwise, they're just, what, hearing about it through their friends—

[00:16:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:12] Jordan Harbinger: —who are hearing about it through their parents who are speculating about what you post on Instagram. That's not how you do this.

[00:16:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Or just growing up in a house with a weird, icky feeling that there's something going on that they don't fully understand.

[00:16:23] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:16:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree completely. The question is, is that our friend here's job to fix?

[00:16:28] Jordan Harbinger: I definitely don't think it's her job to fix it, and she can't. It's not her marriage, but if she wants to be a friend to the daughter while she's coming to terms with all this, I think that's great. And it might be exactly the lifeline this confused teenager needs right now.

[00:16:42] My advice, try to do right by everyone in this situation by approaching this topic openly, respectfully, non-judgmentally, starting with Adam and Susie. Ideally, you help them navigate this situation with the kids on their own, but there's a world where the kids will be confused by all this. Maybe even a little damaged, and that's sad, but that's not your problem. That sounds cold, that's not how I'm trying to deliver this, but all you can do is continue being a safe person for them as they grow up. But I think you do need to be very thoughtful about not overstepping here or blurring the lines too much. Some boundaries might be necessary. This might be a conversation you only fully have with Maddie when she's 17, 18 years old. I also think you are well within your rights to help Adam and Susie see how other people are perceiving them. Their kids especially, because that's crucial for them to understand.

[00:17:33] Man, Gabe, just imagine growing up in this house. It's like the 60s. If it's not awkward yet, it's going to get awkward real soon.

[00:17:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh my god, you just reminded me of something I completely forgot about. So years ago, I went to this guy's house for a dinner party. He was an older guy. I think he was probably like 50, 55, something like that. I assumed he was gay. We were friends for a couple of years, but I knew he was married and I knew he had kids who were like 12, 14, something like that. And in the middle of this party, a man pops out of the guest room. He's like wearing sweatpants and a t-shirt and he made himself a plate of food from the buffet and then like just slinks back into his room.

[00:18:12] Jordan Harbinger: Nice.

[00:18:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: And we're like who is that guy? And he's like, "Oh, that's my wife's friend. He lives with us." And then, he just like goes back to talking to his guests or whatever. And I locked eyes with somebody else at this party. And we both just silently acknowledged that his wife is probably/definitely sleeping with this guy in their house, or they're all sleeping together, who knows, and I look at one of the kids and she just looks at me and then she just looks away.

[00:18:37] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh.

[00:18:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: And I'm like, got it. That makes sense.

[00:18:39] Jordan Harbinger: That's kind of sad because the kid's like, "Oh, do they know? This is weird. What do they think of us now?" Kids shouldn't have to manage that crap, man.

[00:18:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, of course not. But they're old enough to understand. I think—

[00:18:49] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:18:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: I just think that adults sometimes underestimate them, or they're so self-absorbed they don't realize that their kids have opinions about their life.

[00:18:56] Jordan Harbinger: A hundred percent. Yeah, this doesn't involve kids as far as I know. But my friend, Kim Seltzer who is a dating coach, she and I a long time ago, we were hanging out and went to go to get some sushi somewhere. And I can't remember exactly how this happened but we walk in, she's an attractive woman, and we walk into this place to get food and like the guy ringing us up is being super friendly.

[00:19:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:19] Jordan Harbinger: And then this girl comes out, who's his girlfriend, you can tell they're working together, and she's also being super friendly, and we're like, "Oh, this is a really friendly place." And they're asking us these personal questions kind of, and we're like, chatty, whatever. And then the girl starts giving the guy like this massage and he's like, "Oh yeah, that feels good." And we're like at the table right across from us while we're waiting for our food. And it was just very strange. It was inappropriate for the people who worked there to be doing this. I forget the name of the place, but they're like, "Do you guys go to McAllen's on Tuesdays?" And I was like, what a weird question. I've never heard of this place. It's Tuesdays. Like what?

[00:20:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: I see where this is going.

[00:20:01] Jordan Harbinger: That's a weird reference that I've got to Google because we're like, "No, no, never heard of it." They're like, "Oh yeah, you should come. It's a good time." And so I Google it. And of course, it's like a swingers night in McAllen's every Tuesday.

[00:20:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep.

[00:20:14] Jordan Harbinger: It was like their code for throwing that out there as if the massage in front of us wasn't enough to kind of be like, oh, these people, they get their swang on. Yeah, you kind of go like, okay. I also learned a funny term from other friends of mine who are sort of in this scene or whatever, dog shows. Have you heard about this?

[00:20:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dog shows?

[00:20:34] Jordan Harbinger: Dog shows.

[00:20:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: What is that?

[00:20:35] Jordan Harbinger: So I was like making fun of a friend of mine who's like in this swinger scene or whatever. And I was like, "Oh, how do you sift through all these sort of older people?" Because when I think swinger, I think like 50s or 60s stuck in the 70s or 60s in terms of the decade.

[00:20:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:51] Jordan Harbinger: Like overweight now, like not the people that you want to be like, "Yeah, let's get it." You know, just like in a dirty hot tub and they're like, "Yeah, we call those dog shows. It's where all the older and unattractive people go to do their hookup parties." And like the younger swinger generation doesn't want anything to do with them generally because it's like, "No thanks. I'm 25. I'm hot. I don't have to deal with this."

[00:21:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Yeah, that's brutal.

[00:21:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:21:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: So dog shows are like sex parties with the older people?

[00:21:17] Jordan Harbinger: Right, with unattractive or older people. They call it dog shows. It's not my term. I'm not being mean. It's a thing that they use. It's like an industry.

[00:21:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow, that's great. So I don't know. I don't think Adam and Susie go to the dog shows.

[00:21:28] Jordan Harbinger: No, they're probably still in it because if they're getting an Emma, right, who's decades younger. They got one foot in the crowd.

[00:21:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: They're McAllens on Tuesdays, for sure.

[00:21:37] Jordan Harbinger: Strictly McAllens on Tuesdays. Exactly.

[00:21:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Or Saturdays and Sundays, apparently.

[00:21:41] Jordan Harbinger: How did we get into this topic?

[00:21:42] You know, what's better than a weekend getting crunked and filthy at a strip club? Not much, but a close second is the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:21:55] This episode is sponsored in part by Nutrisense. I want to share something I've been geeking out on lately, Nutrisense. If you're into bio-hack-type stuff that genuinely impact your well-being, you're going to love this. So, glucose. It's not just about sugar and sweets, it's actually the linchpin of how you feel, both physically, mentally. I'm talking about things like mood swings, focus, even your energy levels throughout the day. Nutrisense allows you to keep tabs on your glucose levels in real time. It's a little sensor that sticks to your arm. It is a continuous blood glucose monitor. It's like having a health dashboard that tracks how you're reacting to food, exercise, sleep, stress. I've had Nutrisense on for a few weeks now, and the insights are really surprising, to say the least. For instance, I found out ice cream can eat a ton of it, no problem. No glucose spike. Sushi, spike. Sandwiches, spike. What? I don't get it. But it's okay that I don't get it because they have a nutrition coach that looks at your data in the app and tells you what the heck is going on and how to mitigate and maybe add a little protein to the sushi. So that's pretty amazing. I just love that there's a board-certified nutritionist interpreting all of that so I'm not just guessing. And it's not just like one size fits all, don't eat this kind of advice. It's always practical suggestions like add in some protein in the form of sashimi to avoid spiking the glucose. And what I really appreciate is the accountability factor. A quick nudge from my nutritionist keeps me in check, making it easier to stay on course. And the real win is then, of course, making informed choices, which has shifted my perspective on long-term health risks like diabetes, heart disease that run in my family. So I'm not just making random health choices. I'm making sustainable data-driven decisions that actually make a difference. Visit nutrisense.com/jordan to get 30 bucks off your first month plus one free month of nutritionist support. That's nutrisense.com/jordan.

[00:23:35] This episode is also sponsored by SimpliSafe. Preparing one last summer adventure, but worry about break-ins? No? Well, you should. You should live in fear. It's the sort of thing you never think will happen to you until it does. Picture this, a burglar thinks you're an easy target because you're out of town. But boom, SimpliSafe's professional monitoring team catches them with their smart alarm indoor camera and shouts, "Hey, we see you and the police are en route." I'd bet dollars to donuts they'd rethink their life choices right there. And them. And also frantically look around. And that is what makes SimpliSafe an absolute game changer in home security. It's not just recording footage for you to review later, wondering what could have been done. No, no. SimpliSafe's monitoring agents are on it in real time. Ready to call out any would-be burglars and send them running. Oh, and if disaster strikes, there's a fire, there's a flood while you're away, SimpliSafe's LiveGuard Protection, it can spot that in real time and send the right kind of help instantly. No surprise they've bagged the Best Home Security of 2023 from US News and World Report.

[00:24:28] Jen Harbinger: Right now, our listeners get a special 20 percent off any SimpliSafe system when you sign up for Fast Protect Monitoring. This huge offer is for a limited time only. So visit simplisafe.com/jordan. That's simplisafe.com/jordan. There's no safe like SimpliSafe.

[00:24:43] Jordan Harbinger: Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. To learn more and get links to all the discounts and deals for the show and support this podcast, you can go to jordanharbinger.com/deals or search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support the show now back to Feedback Friday.

[00:25:05] Okay, what's next?

[00:25:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a soon-to-be mom who's five months pregnant with my first child My husband and I are super excited and can't wait to be parents The issue is that my ability to do my work as well as personal projects has really changed during my pregnancy In the past, I would take on new projects at work, be the first to speak up during meetings, and always find new ways of improving our processes. I got a lot of fulfillment out of these things, and out of being known as somebody who contributes a lot to the team. I've also been writing a novel on the side, as well as learning the violin for the past several years, which are true passions of mine. But, since being pregnant, my mental and physical capacity to keep up with all of these things has suffered. I get tired from six hours in the office and need to go home early to rest. I'm meeting all of my work obligations, but I'm not putting in the hours that I used to. Usually, I can't even think about my novel because it's a heavy subject and it feels like too much. I haven't picked up the violin in months. I know that being pregnant is temporary, but being a parent is not. I've tried to have compassion for myself and acknowledge that I'm working overtime to grow a whole new person, but nothing that I tell myself works. I just feel disappointed and a little guilty, like I'm letting myself down. I know that taking care of a young child will divert my attention for the foreseeable future, so I don't see this issue resolving itself anytime soon. You both seem like high achievers, so how do you handle it when life gets in the way of your own expectations? Signed, Neglecting My Passions While I Ration My Energy For This Baby I'm Having.

[00:26:45] Jordan Harbinger: This is a good question. Obviously, it's something so many mothers deal with. I realize it's comical for two men on a podcast, one of whom is famously childless, to give advice to a pregnant woman, but yeah, let's see if we can help without sounding too ridiculous.

[00:27:00] So, first of all, I understand why this has been difficult for you. You're a high performer, you derive a lot of gratification from being awesome at work, and you've got a lot of different talents. That's a lot to give up, even temporarily. But you know, the fact that you've cut your hours by 25 percent, and you're still meeting all of your work obligations, I think that's very impressive. And that tells me that even when you're not putting in as much time as you used to, you're still very effective, which means you're probably very efficient, focused, committed, all amazing qualities, and ones that don't go away just because you have less energy these days.

[00:27:36] So look, I know that you've tried to have more grace for yourself and it hasn't really worked. So I won't just tell you to, you know, like, be kind to yourself or whatever, I, everyone's doing that to you. What I do want to invite you to consider is whether your ideas around this period of your life are 100 percent true. Whether they're serving you as well as they could. You said that being pregnant is temporary, but being a parent is not. In other words, you're worried that you'll never work on your novel, or pick up the violin again, but you don't know that that's true. I can almost guarantee you that's not true. There are so many parents out there, even working parents, who make time for their hobbies, their side projects, their passions, there are so many. They might only be able to do them in shorter windows or it might take them longer to finish, but that's okay. They get to a place where their kids don't need them 24/7. They have more energy, they carve out the time, and it totally works.

[00:28:30] Now look, Jen, my wife, her energy levels totally change during and after the pregnancy. You are in it for a few years with small kids. That's what everyone says, I agree. But you just don't know how things are going to be once your body goes through the changes that it's going to go through. Whatever you're feeling right now, It's not going to be forever. So I just want to quell that specific fear of yours right off the bat. You've got a lot of control over that. Once your baby is a year, 18 months, two years old or whatever. And hey, you might find that you have energy to write and play even sooner than that. You just don't know.

[00:29:04] The other thing that jumped out at me in your letter was the feeling of disappointment and guilt, like you're letting yourself down. Now, this part I really get because I'm like you. I derive a lot of meaning from my work, my hobbies, and if I couldn't do those, I think I'd feel the same way. But I would also invite you to consider whether you should feel guilty and why. I completely understand the disappointment, the sadness. But guilt? I don't know, that speaks to something else. It sounds like you feel like you've done something wrong, or you failed to do something right. You've let someone down, you've let yourself down. It almost feels like there are two of you. The childless high achiever that puts in all the hours, and the underachieving pregnant woman and those two halves of you. They're in conflict somehow. High achieving you is going, "You owe it to me to do everything you used to do at the exact same level with the exact same commitment or you are failing me." And pregnant you is going, "Okay, I want to, I'm trying, but I literally can't right now. I'm 3D printing a human. Give me a freaking break here."

[00:30:03] And that understandably causes a lot of distress. But thing is, they are both you. And by allowing yourself to rest a little more these days, I'm not convinced that you're letting yourself down.

[00:30:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I agree. In fact, you're taking care of yourself by listening to your body and allowing it to do its thing, which let's remember is very intense. I mean, pregnancy is just so wild.

[00:30:24] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: And again, that's just what you need to do right now. You might be surprised by how you feel once the baby comes even more after the baby grows up. And I'm not saying kids aren't demanding, and look, I know mothers have it way harder than fathers, generally speaking, because their kids need them in a different way, and they have a special bond with you. But I'm with Jordan, I would really take a moment to explore who you're letting down here, and whether it's even true that you're letting yourself down. Because here's the thing, this exhaustion and these changing priorities, they're happening whether you like it or not.

[00:30:55] So, is there a way to make peace with them, even just a little bit, and see what happens? You know, can you allow yourself to rest up for a few more months and see if your guilt is actually warranted? Can you play the violin for 15, 20 minutes without beating yourself up for not doing your usual hour and a half? And see if you still enjoy it, which I think you will. Sometimes, I think we just need to like, try things without having too many ideas about how they should look or what they say about us, you know, maybe not playing violin as often will make you love it more or maybe stepping away from the book for a few months. Maybe that's going to unlock some new ideas. You just don't know. But if that's happening anyway, if you literally don't have the energy to do these things, it might be worth trying to just roll with it a little bit more and see what happens.

[00:31:40] Jordan Harbinger: Right, she might always feel like she's not doing enough, but that doesn't mean she needs to feel this huge conflict and guilt on top of it.

[00:31:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:31:47] Jordan Harbinger: So that's our advice. Try working with what's happening, rather than fighting it, and try to enjoy this truly special phase that you're going through. I know growing a child doesn't feel like an accomplishment, at least not one you've valued up until now. But it really is, and it's exciting, and when the baby comes along, it's going to blow your mind. Having a child might also change your lens on a lot of this stuff. I know it did for me. Things I thought were so important before, I now see, are just unimportant. And things I would have discounted before, like these small precious moments, little trips to the park and the playground not working every second of the day. I now understand that those are actually the most important.

[00:32:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:32:25] Jordan Harbinger: And I'm still chasing my big goals. I'm still achieving at work. But all of that is balanced by being a parent, which I'm so grateful for that. So make room for that too. Your novel's not going anywhere, the violin's not going anywhere. They're there whenever you want to pick them back up. And take care of yourself. We're sending you and the baby a hug.

[00:32:44] You know, Gabriel, I totally get this. Running a business is the same, you know, and having kids?

[00:32:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:48] Jordan Harbinger: A lot of the older guys that I talk to who also have businesses and also have kids, whenever I talk to them, they're like, "Work will be there later. Work is going to always be there. My kids are moved out of the house and now I'm starting a podcast network and doing video and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever, like doing the line of vitamins."

[00:33:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:08] Jordan Harbinger: And they're doing all the stuff they've had on their list, writing books and all that stuff. They're doing it now. I'm like, "Man, you're 55 or whatever. Do you wish you'd done it earlier?" And they're like, "No, absolutely not."

[00:33:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow.

[00:33:16] Jordan Harbinger: "I took my kids to all these hiking trips and everything." They don't, it just doesn't matter, right? All that time with your kids. It's a trade off, but it's completely worth it, and they never regret it.

[00:33:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:26] Jordan Harbinger: So, I think this is kind of the same thing. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. It does make our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, or you're just not sure how to tell your friend that you frottaged her husband — uh, is that a verb? Can you use it like that, Gabe?

[00:33:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Nope, but I love it.

[00:33:48] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:33:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: You frottaged her husband in the closet, didn't you?

[00:33:52] Jordan Harbinger: Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, you know, your trips to the strip club in Reno? Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:34:01] Okay, next up.

[00:34:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 32-year-old woman who started seeing a guy a few months ago. He's intelligent, funny, caring, and kind, and makes me want to be a better person. I think we could be good partners for each other. I make more money than he does, and probably will for a long time, based trajectories. This doesn't bother me. What does give me pause is his Sallie Mae student debt. He's the first in his family to attend college, and he wasn't advised well on the loans. One of his aunts co-signed for him because his family doesn't have a lot of money. I don't know the actual number, but he doesn't sound optimistic that he'll be able to pay it off in the next decade, even while advancing in his company. The plan that he nihilistically mentioned to me is paying enough of the loans off to get his aunt off the hook and then never paying them again. Credit score be damned. I know this isn't smart or legal, but morally, I agree with him. I feel strongly that businesses like Sallie Mae are predatory towards students who can't understand the gravity of potentially lifelong debt. If I commit to this person, I would take on the debt down the road and have to pay it off with my own money. If we wanted to make big purchases together, this will affect our chances. I would love to see him go to graduate school at some point, but that also means more debt. I know this is part of a partnership, but it makes me nervous to have this financial obligation looming, since I'm not incredibly well off either. It also makes me mad that we would have to pay into something that neither of us believe in. But I'm lucky, I'm blessed not to have student debt and my parents raised me and my brother to avoid it at all costs. How would you recommend financially and mentally approaching this debt if we become serious enough to want to merge finances? Signed, Prone to Groan About These Loans, 'Cause They Might Stop Me From Owning a Home.

[00:35:53] Jordan Harbinger: Man, another great question, and something so many people are asking these days, what with the student loans being such a huge part of our society, and now the executive branch and the courts going back and forth on whether to forgive this debt. So Gabe and I are the furthest thing from personal finance experts. We usually don't even take questions about money on the show. But we thought this was an important one so we reached out to David Gilmore, certified financial planner and friend of the show.

[00:36:18] And the first thing David said was, before you decide on exactly what this debt's going to mean for your relationship, your future prospects, you should check the laws in your state, especially the bankruptcy laws. Not saying your boyfriend necessarily should go down that route, but those laws will determine so many angles to your situation — what his options are, how they'll affect him, how they'll affect you. Now, if your boyfriend ever decides to tackle his debt in a new way, David said your boyfriend would want to speak to somebody familiar with debt counseling in his state.

[00:36:47] And as a side note, debt counseling is different from debt consolidating or any debt counselors who charge fees or collect interest or any of that other shady stuff. Those people, from what I understand, they can be way more predatory than these student loan companies are at all. And I just want to clarify that. We're talking about debt counseling.

[00:37:05] But maybe most relevant for you, David said that your state will have specific rules about the treatment of assets and debts brought into a marriage. And that is something you should definitely get a good handle on now, because it's possible that you wouldn't assume this debt or that you would but in specific ways that you should understand now before you pull the trigger on this.

[00:37:26] Now, about the whole "credit score be damned" mentality, David was pretty emphatic on that point too. In his view, that philosophy could put your boyfriend into a very bad and unintended future financially. Much like the original decision to take out these loans. His strong opinion in a situation like this, seek out good advice. If you guys get married and his credit sucks, he hasn't really avoided any issues. It's just become that much harder for you both to buy a home, get a car, whatever, and then, I imagine everything's going to have to be in your name since his name is going to be mud in the eyes of credit agencies. Now, if you want to take that on yourself, that's fine, but you might find that unfair and burdensome and limiting, for that matter, and something to sit with and consider.

[00:38:13] As for your boyfriend going to grad school, look, there are different angles on that. Maybe grad school would be a great path for your boyfriend, but David's recommendation is to not fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy regarding higher education. It's easy to buy into the idea of, "Well, I've come this far," or "I've already spent this much money on my degree, why not finish the whole thing and go all the way?" But in his view, and I agree with this, a degree should be viewed first and foremost as an investment. And if that investment's going to increase your boyfriend's earning potential, then he should consider doing grad school. If his career will not be improved by completing his degree, then in his view, your boyfriend should think long and hard about sinking more into debt to complete it.

[00:38:56] Why do that? Again, David would recommend that you work with a certified financial planner to create a plan as CFPs are held to a fiduciary standard, meaning they have to put their client's interest above their own.

[00:39:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: So that's the very practical/financial aspect to all this and it's great advice. The one that is closer to home here is how this debt figures into what sounds like a great relationship. And I got to say, I feel for you, because this is not a small thing. Depending on where you live, this debt could really hamstring you guys, financially, psychologically. But it sounds like you found a very special guy, and it would be a shame to miss out on a great relationship just because he was poorly advised when he was basically a kid. I also think that it's very thoughtful of you to acknowledge that you're just luckier than he is in this department. Your parents happened to steer you away from student loans, his didn't. And under different circumstances, you might have ended up in the same boat. And I think that's just very important to appreciate as well. But, to return to one of David's points, your boyfriend's whole "eff it, YOLO" philosophy about repaying the debt, that is an issue. And the answer to, "I'm underwater on these loans and I'll never be able to pay them off," just cannot be, "so I'm going to bail on them and just tank my financial future in the process."

[00:40:12] Jordan Harbinger: She used the word nihilistic, which I thought was interesting. It's a great five-dollar word. I think that's a mindset that comes from a lot of anger and a lot of helplessness.

[00:40:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. And I get it because these loans are infuriating. But now we're not just talking about dollars and cents. We're talking about values and not just values around money, but around how to respond to difficult situations, how to take care of yourself, how to be adaptive, how to think about the future. Those really matter in a serious relationship. So my thought here is just make sure that you're factoring those qualities into your decision about this guy too. I'm not saying they're necessarily deal breakers. They might not even matter that much to you, and that is totally fine. But the "screw my credit" thing is something I would try to help him look at and change now before he compromises himself any further. Because how he responds to your help will tell you a lot about whether you guys are truly compatible.

[00:41:05] Jordan Harbinger: Look, my heart goes out to this guy for being one of the literally tens of millions of people in this country who have student loan debt.

[00:41:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:12] Jordan Harbinger: It can be oppressive. It can be shady as hell. It can be pretty awful for a lot of folks. And I'm still not sure where I stand on the loan forgiveness thing. I'm not sure that's even a real solution to the problem because it doesn't address the cause at all, but I digress.

[00:41:26] Anyway, here he is, and many other people are as well, and like Gabe said, the way he responds to this debt, the attitude he leads with, for me, that's what would determine whether this person is truly the right fit. And we're rooting for you guys, we're wishing you and your boyfriend the best. Big thanks to David Gilmore for his wisdom here.

[00:41:44] Man, Gabe, I am very glad Sallie Mae is not one of our sponsors because that would be a hell of an awkward ad pivot. Speaking of which, you know who won't put you into lifelong crippling debt? The amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:42:02] This episode is sponsored in part by EveryPlate. Fall is in full swing and one of the banes of our existence is coming up with what to feed our freaking families each day. You can only order so much takeout before you get flavor fatigue and you just shrivel up and die from MSG or whatever they put in restaurant food. EveryPlate, America's Best Value Meal Kit has been a lifesaver for go-to delicious affordable eats. They keep it fresh with 26 weekly recipes along with optional sides, snacks, you name it. Also, it's 25 percent cheaper than grocery shopping and less wasteful, honestly. Most of all, a huge time saver when we're juggling work, kids, a dozen other things I got to do. EveryPlate helps you snatch back your precious time by planning your meals and delivering pre-portioned ingredients straight to your door. Imagine having your meals ready in just six simple steps. EveryPlate also sources sustainably, right down to Monterey Bay Aquarium-approved seafood. Amazing quality, and it's introduced us to flavors and ingredients. Normally, I would just never bother to try otherwise. Crispy Buffalo Ranch Chicken with Honey Roasted Carrots and Mashed Potatoes, Tomato Chicken Sausage Cavatappi. That just sounds like a word that somebody made up. And it was awesome, by the way. And we devoured that stuff. I inhaled it.

[00:43:05] Jen Harbinger: Get started with EveryPlate per meal by going to everyplate.com/podcast and enter code 49JORDAN. everyplate.com/podcast and use code 49JORDAN for $1.49 per meal.

[00:43:18] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by Apartments.com. What comes to mind when you picture the perfect roommate? One who comes when you call? One who doesn't forget to lock the doors? One who doesn't steal your milk? Just a little bit at a time, hoping you won't notice. At Apartments.com, we understand that when it comes to roommates, a pet can be your best bet. They're easy going, they eat what you serve them, and never clog the toilet. That's why they have the most pet-friendly rental listings on the Internet. And with instant alerts, you're going to know the moment your perfect pet-friendly place becomes available. So when you need a place that's pet-friendly and human-tolerant, check out Apartments.com. The place to find your pet-friendly place.

[00:43:54] This episode is sponsored in part by BetterHelp. This is something we've all wrestled with. You're in bed, the lights are off, you're almost asleep, but suddenly, your brain decides it's party time. You start fretting about deadlines, reliving awkward moments, and before you know which I have like a lot of those, and there's just an unlimited supply every time I think I've processed one, there's just more the next day. And we've all been down this road. It's frustrating as heck. Maybe you worry about real things. Congratulations. But this is where therapy can help you work out those pesky thought knots. BetterHelp is a great option. Fill out a questionnaire. Based on your answers, you get teamed up with a licensed therapist whose skills are tailored to your needs. All of this happens online, people. You can unload your deepest fears and greatest hopes to a complete stranger without stepping out of your living room. Perfect for those moments when you're digging deep and you need to feel safe and secure. But life is not always a one shot win it maybe you and your therapist don't gel no biggie. BetterHelp, let's you switch therapists. No fuss. No extra cost. And I think therapy is like a software update for your mind. Everyone could use one. It's probably long overdue. You've been pushing it off that little red dot. It's just annoying. and BetterHelp is making it as simple as clicking, install now.

[00:44:59] Jen Harbinger: Get a break from your thoughts with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/jordan to get 10 percent off your first month. That's better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan.

[00:45:08] Jordan Harbinger: If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. To learn more and get links to all the discounts and deals to support the show all on one page, jordanharbinger.com/deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Or even email me, jordan@jordanharbinger.com if you're super lazy. I'll dig that damn code up for you. Thank you so much for supporting those who support the show.

[00:45:36] Now back to Feedback Friday.

[00:45:39] Okay, next up.

[00:45:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe. My manager at work is the lead for all of our projects, which include leadership updates, solving problems for our customers, and assigning different jobs to the junior members of the team, including me. She went on vacation for eight weeks, and before she left, she decided to make me the sole lead for those responsibilities, on top of what I was already doing. At first, it was very stressful, and I needed a lot of help from my skip level. But after the first two weeks, I found my footing and started to excel. The other members of my team saw me as the lead during this time and gave me positive feedback. I also got feedback from our leadership that I've been doing a great job in this new role, and I created a lot of relationships with members at a very high level in my organization. In a few weeks, my manager is coming back. Now, I'm asking myself, should I trust her and give back my new responsibilities? Should I push to keep this role, especially with a promotion cycle coming up? Would it be a betrayal to even bring up the suggestion? What would you do with this opportunity coming to an end? Signed, A Guy in the Zone, Loathe to Give Up the Throne.

[00:46:50] Jordan Harbinger: Congrats on stepping up in such an amazing way. Your boss obviously chose you for this role because you have a lot to offer. And look what you did with it. You learned, you grew, kicked some butt, you got noticed for it. Good on you. That's really exciting. I haven't had a real job in a really long time. So we wanted to run all this by an expert and we reached out to Alisa Cohn, startup coach, investor, and author of the book From Start-Up to Grown-Up.

[00:47:12] And it was funny. The first thing Alisa said was in her two decades of experience as an executive coach, she's observed a few truisms. And one of them is winners always want the ball. So she wanted to congratulate you on taking the ball, getting through some initial growing pains and turning it into a win for yourself. Not only that, but building relationships at a new level and earning the respect of your peers. Alisa had the same reaction as us. It's an incredible accomplishment. No matter what happens next, those relationships and the skills to build them, those are assets that'll help you build a great career.

[00:47:45] So Alisa's take is, rather than thinking about this in a binary way, should you keep the role, should you let it go? Try opening up to a bigger picture and think about how to leverage this incredible experience that you've had. It sounds like everything's in order for your manager to come back, thank you for your service, and resume her place as the leader of the team. Alisa's feeling is that it would look pretty bad for you to try to lobby with the leaders you've connected with to undermine her and try and take her role. You asked us if you should trust her and give back your new responsibilities, and to that Alisa would say, well, she trusted you to take on these responsibilities with the assumption that she would resume them once she returned. And Alisa's recommendation is, do not betray that trust.

[00:48:30] That said, there's plenty you can do to prepare for her return and once she gets back. Alisa suggested you spend the time before and right after she returns to set up some one-on-ones with the leaders higher up in your company. Let them know how much you've enjoyed the manager role, what specifically you've learned, then ask them what feedback they have for you. Hopefully, they'll share what they saw you do right, what they valued about you, and then ask for a suggestion or two about what you can improve so that you'll continue to grow. Then, since you've enjoyed this role so much, let them know you'd be interested in more opportunities like this, and you'd love for them to be on the lookout for you. And if they have suggestions about where to look or how to land a promotion that would maybe utilize these new skills, you'd love to hear them. Then, ask them how they'd like to keep in touch, even if you don't have the same day-to-day contact.

[00:49:17] Alisa also said that you can have a similar conversation with your manager when she gets back. Share what you've learned, what you and the team accomplished while she was away. Let her know the status of key projects, or any risks or concerns she needs to know about. And then, Alisa said to ask her if you can follow up with a career conversation. In that chat, let her know what you've enjoyed, what you've learned. The feedback you got from leadership, tell her you'd like to be on track to getting promoted, and you'd like her support and mentorship to get there, and then just continue to follow up with her and all your new mentors to help you thrive.

[00:49:48] I would also go back and read an old article we wrote, we turned that into a deep dive about the best way to land a promotion. That's going to be really good for you right now. We'll link to them in the show notes for you. Alisa also had one final thought. Remember that how you handle this will be another data point for everyone about your reputation. As she put it, this is a really good moment to be gracious as well as ambitious. That'll stand you in good stead with everyone in the company and will ultimately help you get you where you want to go faster.

[00:50:18] And I could not agree with her more. You don't have to go full succession to rise up here. You don't have to get all backstabby and Machiavellian. Being true to your word, being collaborative, putting the team's needs first. That is going to serve you so much better. Trust me. So go run with Alisa's advice. Make your boss's transition back as seamless as possible, and good luck.

[00:50:38] And big thanks to Alisa for her wisdom here. We're going to link to Alisa's book and her podcast, From Start-Up to Grown-Up in the show notes, along with her 5 Scripts for Delicate Conversations, PDF. I highly recommend them all.

[00:50:49] Okay, what's next?

[00:50:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, my partner of 15 years was previously married to an alcoholic woman who emotionally, verbally, and occasionally physically abused him.

[00:51:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yikes.

[00:51:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: The experience left him with a profound aversion to alcohol consumption. When we first got together, he said he was fine if I had a single drink now and then. Since I've only ever been a social drinker, that was fine with me. But as the years passed, his position on drinking has become more and more hardline. He becomes visibly agitated and sometimes leaves a social situation abruptly and rudely if we're around people who are even just a little tipsy. His disdain has cost us friendships many times. Once, for example, we went on a vacation with some responsible, mature friends to a resort, and he made everyone uncomfortable when the other couple began vacation drinking. I spent the entire time trying to soothe him and assuring our friends that he would be okay and they could enjoy themselves, but it was exhausting. So, I began only drinking at events where he wasn't present. One time, I went on a winery tour with several friends and after sipping many small samples at a few wineries, I was accidentally and thoroughly hammered. My husband picked me up, found me hugging the toilet, carried me out, took me home and put me to bed. A scenario that I know caused him flashbacks to his ex-wife. I was pretty mortified and felt terrible. And after I slept it off, we had one of our worst arguments ever. He gave me no grace for my mistake and had zero empathy for my embarrassment. Since then, I only have one drink two or three times a year, and never when he's around. It feels like I'm hiding it from my partner, which doesn't feel great. He's also made my two fully-grown sons feel uncomfortable about enjoying adult beverages. I have asked my partner to seek therapy for his trauma, but he doesn't seem motivated to work on the issue. Later this year, my oldest son is getting married in India to a lovely Indian woman. We'll be spending a month with my son's future in-laws, who are heavy social drinkers, and I'm worried that my partner will make them and the other guests uncomfortable. I'd love to be able to enjoy myself at the wedding, and it would definitely help me loosen up for my speech. Other than this issue, my partner is a loving and respectful man, and our relationship is solid. But as a 50-year-old adult who's been responsible my whole life and doesn't have a drinking problem, I'd like to have the freedom to get a little tipsy at these events. Would I be disrespecting my partner's trauma if I imbibe at the wedding? How can I ask him for a little grace and freedom to celebrate at the wedding without causing him emotional harm, damaging our relationship, or causing a scene? And how can I help him survive the whole experience without him harming our otherwise wonderful relationship with my son and my future daughter-in-law and her parents? Signed, Trying to Imbibe and Fit In With This Tribe, When It Doesn't Jive With My Husband's Past Life.

[00:53:52] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, yeah, this is an interesting conundrum. So, look, your partner obviously went through something really tragic with his ex. It's even given him this sort of allergic reaction to drinking. And I mean allergic reaction is understating things. I think, you're right, it sounds like he has some kind of post-traumatic response to alcohol consumption. And look, I feel for the guy, I don't think he'd be such a hard ass about the booze if he didn't go through something very serious with this woman. And it's sad for both of you, it's sad that he's so triggered by drinking and that you can't enjoy it even in moderation. And that said, I'm 100 percent on your team here.

[00:54:28] Your partner has some unresolved stuff around alcohol and he's not doing much/anything to understand it better. It sounds to me like he's just going around with this belief like, "No one should drink alcohol around me, it's too upsetting." Instead of asking himself, "Why is alcohol so upsetting to me?"

[00:54:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:54:45] Jordan Harbinger: "And is it fair to expect my partner, and my friends, and the other people in our groups to not drink so that I can feel okay?" Which is what he should be doing, in my opinion. He should be exploring this.

[00:54:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: And which is especially unreasonable when they're going on a resort vacation with a bunch of adults or to a wedding where people obviously want to drink. I mean, it's one thing if he's like, look, I don't want us to drink in the house. If that's okay, I don't like the energy or whatever. But to impose that on other people in situations that he is choosing to put himself in, where drinking is very much par for the course, that seems unreasonable and it seems frankly kind of irrational.

[00:55:18] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, right. Well, don't go on vacation with other adults at an all-inclusive resort that includes alcohol or don't go to a wedding ever.

[00:55:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean even people in recovery learn how to operate in situations where alcohol is going to be served or they stay away from those places because they really are triggers, but they don't go around demanding that everybody not drink because they don't like it. And this guy, her partner, he's not even in recovery.

[00:55:41] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. He has even less license to act this way because it's not like he's an addict and he's falling off the wagon whenever he smells Pinot Noir on his wife.

[00:55:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:55:50] Jordan Harbinger: It freaks him out. So to answer your first question, would you be disrespecting your partner's trauma if you drink at the wedding or anywhere really? My feeling is, no, you wouldn't. In my view, you owe it to your partner to be thoughtful about his history, to be sensitive to his feelings, to be supportive when he feels triggered, but you don't owe it to him to radically constrict and reconstruct your life in order to spare him certain feelings.

[00:56:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Feelings, let's remember, that got created by a very dysfunctional relationship that he himself chose to be in, to some degree.

[00:56:23] Jordan Harbinger: Right, not feelings you created that you need to manage because you're a chaotic mess—

[00:56:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:56:28] Jordan Harbinger: —and then had spent 20 years, you know, ruining his life or whatever. And look, if it sounded like you had a little bit of a problem with the booze, I'd probably have a different answer. Then I'd say, hey, maybe your partner has a point. Also, maybe your partner has a pattern. But that's not the case. You had one night where you accidentally drank too much, and the rest of the time you've been extremely responsible. So if you want to make progress here, you need to have some very honest talks with your partner.

[00:56:55] I would start by validating his feelings around alcohol. I would make him feel understood. I would tell him you appreciate the mark his ex made on him. How hard it must be to see other people enjoy alcohol without feeling like things are about to get super chaotic. And maybe there's a phase of this where you just let him talk about how hard that is for him. And then, when the moment is right, I would say something along the lines of, "Look, the last thing I want to do is upset you, but your stance on alcohol, which I can understand, it's now getting in the way of me enjoying my life in a responsible way. I'm not an addict. I barely drink now, outside of that night at the wineries, which was a genuine accident. I'm super disciplined. I'm moderate. And I want to have a drink now and again. But I now feel like I have to hide this from you. And I see you holding this against my kids. And I feel like I'm cutting myself off from having certain experiences and enjoying certain events. Like the wedding coming up in order to protect you. And I don't feel that that's fair to me or the people in our life. Our relationship is solid. You're loving, you're respectful. We have a great partnership. But we need to come to some agreement on this drinking thing."

[00:58:03] Something like that. You guys need to talk this out. Basically, he needs to feel that you understand why this is so hard for him, that you're not at risk of hurting him with the booze, and you need him to recognize that he has some unresolved stuff from his ex that he's bringing into your relationship, that he's being overly rigid in his expectations for you and for your friends. And if you guys can do that, then you might have a shot at changing this. If you can't, well, then you're either going to have to make peace with his stance and cave in or press the issue and drink however you want, which it's going to become a real fissure in your relationship.

[00:58:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: I would also specifically bring up the wedding that you want to drink in moderation there and that you're concerned that he's going to make your son's in-laws a bit uncomfortable. I really feel like that is something you guys want to get out ahead of now.

[00:58:50] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. Yeah, oh, for sure. I think rather than bringing it up on the plane and landing in Mumbai ready to tear each other's hair off.

[00:58:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly, or not talking about it at all and then having to calm him down every time somebody orders a Kingfisher, then you're going to have a scene.

[00:59:04] Jordan Harbinger: Is that like an Indian beer?

[00:59:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think so. I'm pretty sure, yeah.

[00:59:08] Jordan Harbinger: It just sounds like such a drag.

[00:59:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: It is.

[00:59:10] Jordan Harbinger: Plus, they're there for a month That's going to be a real problem. "Oh, we're here for a month, we're going to be with all the in-laws and everybody at the event. Nobody order wine. Nobody order a beer. Tom's going to go ballistic." "Okay. Cool. We'll just do this for four weeks."

[00:59:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: I also think it's fair to say, "Look, this alcohol policy could compromise our otherwise wonderful relationship with my son and my future daughter-in-law and her parents. I don't want to meet these people with a ton of judgment or discomfort. So can we please talk about this? Can we figure this out now?"

[00:59:39] Jordan Harbinger: Honestly, if he can't even engage with her on this, I might suggest he just don't go to the wedding. And I know that seems harsh and it's going to look weird, but if this guy literally can't be around people who are drinking without lecturing them or having a meltdown, then he should just not be at a wedding.

[00:59:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Especially an Indian wedding.

[00:59:57] Jordan Harbinger: Good point. Don't those things go for like three, four days?

[01:00:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, they're epic. They're huge events.

[01:00:02] Jordan Harbinger: And people let loose.

[01:00:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[01:00:04] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, if he can't relax. And let people get their drink on without lecturing them about the dangers of ethanol. It's just not the right place for him. This is a cultural thing.

[01:00:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Which is why your partner should, again, really be exploring this in therapy. Because this isn't ultimately about the alcohol. It's about being abused by an addict for many years. And being afraid that he's somehow going to be exposed to the same mistreatment and, to Jordan's point, the same chaos all over again, which is clearly not the case now. But again, that's the logic of what sounds like some form of PTSD, right?

[01:00:36] So maybe when you guys talk, you could say, "Look, I know it's hard to talk to somebody about what happened with your ex. This concerns me. I see you getting stuck with these feelings and with these beliefs about alcohol. They're making it hard for you to enjoy your life, they're making it hard for both of us to stay close with our friends. You're just not addressing this stuff, and I need you to know that there's a better way."

[01:00:56] Jordan Harbinger: Right, he's basically outsourcing the work he needs to do to her by telling her what she can and can't do so that he doesn't have to change.

[01:01:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly.

[01:01:05] Jordan Harbinger: Which is actually what I find the most interesting thing about this story, Gabe, the way she's cramping around his wounds when he's the one who needs to work through this.

[01:01:14] This is something we're dealing with as a society right now as we talk more and more about trauma. There seems to be this agreement now that we need to just tiptoe around everybody's pressure points and accommodate their triggers so we don't upset them. And don't get me wrong. Obviously, I think that's appropriate up to a point. I'm not saying we should be callous or cruel. We should all be thoughtful about people's pasts and their feelings, but the idea that she might be disrespecting her partner's past experience, I'm just not sure that's a thing.

[01:01:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[01:01:44] Jordan Harbinger: She can disrespect his right to an opinion, she can disrespect his feelings, she can disrespect his needs by refusing to even consider them, but I don't think that she can disrespect what her husband went through with his ex because that's his experience. That might not have been completely his fault, but he needs to take responsibility for the vulnerabilities that that experience left him with.

[01:02:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:06] Jordan Harbinger: And not drag them into his new relationship in a way that compromises the quality of her life.

[01:02:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[01:02:13] Jordan Harbinger: So, I guess what I'm saying is, this is a really fascinating example of what happens when we expect people to overly accommodate our histories instead of working on those histories ourselves. That's his work to do.

[01:02:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Man, that is so well put, and her work is to learn how to tell him how this alcohol thing is impacting her and her relationships and their family without invalidating what he went through.

[01:02:37] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. If they can each take responsibility for that, I really do think there's a way forward. And good luck!

[01:02:43] Man, going to India for a wedding, it sounds amazing. I got invited to a wedding in Goa, and I couldn't go and I regret not making that happen.

[01:02:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh man, it's so fun. A good friend of mine got married in Goa several years ago and it was one of the greatest trips of my life. The wedding was so much fun. It was like redefined weddings for me. A bunch of us ended up traveling around India before the wedding, after the wedding. Oh, and at the wedding, a guy fell out of a window at the hotel.

[01:03:09] Jordan Harbinger: Stop! Wait, I should not laugh. That's terrible. Is he okay?

[01:03:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. He's fine. It happened in my room, actually.

[01:03:15] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. You left that part out. A guy fell out of the window! I mean, of my hotel room.

[01:03:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: A bunch of us were hanging out. There were probably 20 people in my hotel room. We were just chilling. I was across the room. He was sitting on the windowsill. I literally looked up at one moment. I see him laughing with his friends. And then, he leans backwards, and the next second, he was just gone.

[01:03:33] Jordan Harbinger: I can't believe that. What floor were you on?

[01:03:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Luckily, my room was on the second floor. So it wasn't that far of a fall, but. It was a little scary.

[01:03:42] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, I don't know if that story really helps our case here. I feel like that's the exact scenario our friend here's partner is worried about. Like, no, no, no, booze is fine. He needs to work around youth thing and it's cultural and he needs to work on his own stuff. By the way, that guy who fell out the window, drunk. Don't ever, don't, yeah.

[01:03:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: In India where you will be heading in a few months to enjoy.

[01:03:59] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

[01:04:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I realize that now. Maybe don't play your partner this episode.

[01:04:02] Jordan Harbinger: No, just give him the choice bits, the advice. Give him the part where he said he needs to work through it and that's it. Stop, stop before the story. Wow. Just stay away from windows while you're in India, man. What about exposure therapy? Like maybe she just drinks every single day up until the wedding so he gets used to it.

[01:04:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: I like it.

[01:04:19] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah? Maybe I'll stick to podcasting instead of therapy.

[01:04:22] All right, hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out episodes with Forrest Galante and Jen Cohen if you haven't done so yet.

[01:04:32] The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. And I am teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our Six-Minute Networking course. The course is free. It is not gross. It's not schmoozy. It's free on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. The drills just take a few minutes per day. I really wish I'd known this stuff 20 years ago. We want you to dig the well before you get thirsty, build relationships before you need them, jordanharbinger.com/course.

[01:04:59] And if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our recently relaunched newsletter for the show. It is called Wee Bit Wiser. It's basically a bite-sized gem from a past episode from me to you, delivered to your inbox once a week. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our 900-plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. It is also, of course, free, jordanharbinger.com/news.

[01:05:21] Show notes and transcripts on the website. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals or ask the AI chatbot on the website as well. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi or on X at @GabeMizrahi.

[01:05:42] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto David Gilmore and Alisa Cohn. Remember, we rise by lifting others, share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

[01:06:15] Here's a trailer from my interview with Academy Award winner Matthew McConaughey.

[01:06:19] Matthew McConaughey: All right, all right, all right.

[01:06:22] Jordan Harbinger: Did you just kind of like walk down and get a coffee one day and everyone's like, "Oh hey, guy I see here regularly," and then the next time it was like, "That's the guy from A Time to Kill."

[01:06:30] Matthew McConaughey: It wasn't coffee. It was a tuna sandwich and it inverted. I mean, it went from 400 people in the promenade, 395 minding their own business, five of them looking at me to 395 staring at me, five weren't. The world became a mirror. I noticed right there immediately. Oh, I don't meet strangers anymore.

[01:06:48] Who am I when I'm being told I can kind of be whoever I want to be? And I was 23, 24. I checked out, went to a monastery for a couple of weeks, went on a solo backpacking trip through Peru for 22 days. I needed some quiet time to hear my own self think and have a little Socratic dialogue with the M and the E.

[01:07:05] There's a real sobriety. That comes when you lose a father. What I mean by sobriety is that there's a drunkenness we have in reverence for things in life. There's a drunkenness we have in looking down upon things in life that maybe we shouldn't. The sobriety is that everything I looked down upon rose up to eye level. Everything I was revering on earth rose down to eye level. You know, you can engineer green lights for your future by the choices and responsibilities you take today. They can give you more freedom tomorrow, but you don't do the work, you don't get the freedom.

[01:07:41] It's one of my favorite stories I've ever heard told. And I'm the subject in the middle of it, and I'm the one with the egg on my face throughout it. The joke is on me. I look back at him and I just laugh my ass off. Oh my gosh, it was hilarious.

[01:07:59] Jordan Harbinger: For more, including how Matthew McConaughey makes life-altering career decisions, check out episode 455 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[01:08:09] This episode is sponsored in part by Investing for Beginners podcast. Ever find yourself scratching your head when you hear the words Roth IRA or diversified portfolio? Maybe you've thought about putting your hard-earned money to work, but don't know the first thing about investing. I get it. It's like trying to speak a foreign language. That's why you got to tune into the Investing for Beginners podcast. Dave and Andrew will cut through the jargon, simplify complex investment terms into language you and I can understand. They're democratizing financial know-how, making investing accessible to everyone, not just the Wall Street wizards. Let's be honest, you don't need a financial guru to make your money work for you, but a little guidance never hurt anybody. So whether you're looking to dip your toes into investing or you want to understand why the stock market fluctuates, this is the podcast that'll give you the insights you need. The Investing for Beginners podcast is a great way to start expanding your relationship with money. Find the Investing for Beginners podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.