Jack Schafer (@jackschafer) is a retired FBI special agent, current assistant professor at Western Illinois University, and co-author of The Like Switch: An Ex-FBI Agent’s Guide to Influencing, Attracting, and Winning People Over. [This is part one of a two-part episode. Catch up with part two here!]
What We Discuss with Jack Schafer:
- Why happy people make terrible spy recruits.
- How the Friendship Formula (Friendship = Proximity + Frequency + Duration + Intensity) can be used to build rapport in every human interaction.
- How to “name it and claim it” when manipulative techniques are being used against you to withstand and resist their effects.
- How to recognize friend and foe signals in others and make sure you’re not inadvertently broadcasting the signals that mark you as an easy target for manipulation.
- What’s really going on when someone grabs food from your plate without asking, or takes their sweet time getting out of the parking spot you’re clearly waiting for.
- And much more…
Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider including your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!
We all know someone who can step into a party of strangers and leave with a room of new friends. We might even envy how effortlessly they deploy this unstoppable charisma and lament that we, ourselves, were deprived of such a wondrous gift when we entered this world. But lament no more: the ability to turn strangers into friends isn’t some magically inherited talent, but a skillset that anyone can learn.
On this episode, we’re rejoined by retired FBI special agent Jack Schafer to discuss the techniques presented in his book The Like Switch: An Ex-FBI Agent’s Guide to Influencing, Attracting, and Winning People Over. Here, we’ll discover how we can use something called the Friendship Formula to establish rapport in any human interaction — whether we’re recruiting spies, trying to buy a car, going on a first date, or hoping to land a job interview. Listen, learn, and enjoy! [This is part one of a two-part episode. Catch up with part two here!]
Please Scroll Down for Featured Resources and Transcript!
Please note that some of the links on this page (books, movies, music, etc.) lead to affiliate programs for which The Jordan Harbinger Show receives compensation. It’s just one of the ways we keep the lights on around here. Thank you for your support!
Sign up for Six-Minute Networking — our free networking and relationship development mini course — at jordanharbinger.com/course!
- Starbucks: Try Starbucks Tripleshot energy today
- Canva: Get a free 45-day extended trial at canva.me/jordan
- GoodRx: Learn more at goodrx.com/jordan
- Simple Mobile: Learn more at simplemobile.com
- SimpliSafe: Learn more at simpliSafe.com/jordan
Miss the show we did with Molly Bloom — the woman behind the most exclusive, high-stakes underground poker game in the world? Catch up here with episode 120: Molly Bloom | The One Who Makes the Rules Wins the Game!
Thanks, Jack Schafer!
If you enjoyed this session with Jack Schafer, let him know by clicking on the link below and sending him a quick shout out at Twitter:
And if you want us to answer your questions on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at email@example.com.
Resources from This Episode:
- The Like Switch: An Ex-FBI Agent’s Guide to Influencing, Attracting, and Winning People Over by Jack Schafer and Marvin Karlins | Amazon
- The Truth Detector: An Ex-FBI Agent’s Guide for Getting People to Reveal the Truth by Jack Schafer and Marvin Karlins | Amazon
- Jack Schafer | Twitter
- Jack Schafer | Getting People to Reveal the Truth Part One | Jordan Harbinger
- Jack Schafer | Getting People to Reveal the Truth Part Two | Jordan Harbinger
- Joe Navarro | How to Identify and Protect Yourself from Harmful People | Jordan Harbinger
- The Role of Oxytocin in the Dog–Owner Relationship | Animals
- The Importance of Being Able to Be Quiet with Your Partner | Bustle
- The Benjamin Franklin Effect: How to Build Rapport by Asking for Favors | Effectiviology
- 19 Sales Closing Techniques for Reps (with Examples) | Spotio
- Robin Dreeke | Sizing People Up | Jordan Harbinger
557: Jack Schafer | Flipping the Like Switch Part One
[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Special thanks to Starbucks for sponsoring this episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show.
[00:00:04] Coming up next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.
[00:00:08] Jack Schafer: If people share the same space, there's a mutual liking that occurs. People are mutually attracted to one another who just simply share the same space. They may not communicate with one another, but if they share the same office and they see each other daily, then that proximity causes that mutual attraction, mutual predisposition to like somebody.
[00:00:33] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. We have in-depth conversations with people at the top of their game, astronauts, entrepreneurs, spies, psychologists, even the occasional billionaire investor, national security advisor, or neuroscientist. Each episode turns our guests' wisdom into practical advice that you can use to build a deeper understanding of how the world works and become a better critical thinker.
[00:01:01] If you're new to the show, or you want to tell your friends about it, and I always appreciate it when you do, we've got the starter packs. Those were at jordanharbinger.com/start. Those are a taste of everything we do here on the show, sorted by popular episodes.
[00:01:12] Now, today, Uncle Jack, Jack Schafer, is back on the show. Everyone's favorite FBI agents. He's not really my uncle. But you'd never guess by the level of snark in all of our conversations. He used to be one of our nation's top spy catchers. You heard him before teaching us about elicitation and how to get the truth out of people. Now, a two parter on getting people to like and, more importantly, trust us. This is a great episode with tons of practicals, for anybody in any profession where they work with, or deal with other people, which I assume is pretty much every single one of us. There's lots here. Tons of practicals. Let's get cracking.
[00:01:45] And by the way, if you're wondering how I managed to book all these amazing thinkers, authors, creators every single week, it's because of my network. And I'm telling you, dig the well before you get thirsty, build those relationships before you need them. I'm teaching you how to do it for free over at jordanharbinger.com/course, and most of the guests you hear on the show, they subscribe to the course. Come join us, you'll be in smart company where you belong.
[00:02:07] Now, here's Jack Schafer.
[00:02:11] Let's assume for this one that people have not heard the last one. We don't have to go over all the principles again, but I would love to get some — start off with some background on your job at the FBI, recruiting and turning enemy spies. I know that's a gross exaggeration of you had a lot of other things to do or a gross simplification, I should say, but—
[00:02:30] Jack Schafer: That's a lot of what I did though.
[00:02:31] Jordan Harbinger: Is it? Okay. So tell us about how that kind of works. And I would love to know how you get selected for something like that. Did they just say this guy understands people, go turn enemy spies, or they just kind of like, "Schafer's not doing anything, have him go catch Russians."
[00:02:46] Jack Schafer: It's kind of the second. And if you do well, you stay and if you don't do well, they give you another job.
[00:02:53] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So are they thinking — because it seems like you wouldn't want to just test that out on people. Well, there's got to be a way to put you through the ringer without saying, "Go chase this really important Russian asset." And then they go, "Whoa, that was the wrong guy for the job. He made us look like a bunch of dipsh*ts. Hey, Harbinger, you go try now." Like that's not really a good—
[00:03:13] Jack Schafer: No.
[00:03:13] Jordan Harbinger: You can't send 10 people after one guy.
[00:03:15] Jack Schafer: I'm trying to think what they do is you go through a training program first and they determine whether you have the skills, the social skills, because a lot of recruitment has to do with social skills. You have to be able to identify with somebody. You have to be able to empathize with somebody. And above all, you need to learn what that person needs above all, because happy people make terrible spies. You cannot recruit a happy person. If you recruit a happy person, what are you going to give them? You look for somebody who needs something. They need healthcare. They want their kids to come to school in the United States. And an income for retirement, you can give that in exchange for classified information. In fact, I spoke with a Russian KGB officer at the time and he asked — we were talking about what it takes to recruit a spy. And it was kind of a casual conversation. And I asked him, "If I put a bag of money in your lap, would you show me classified information?" And he looked at me and he said, "Mr. Jack, would you give out classified information if I put a bag of money in your lap?" I said, "Well, of course, I would." And he says, "What makes you think I would?" Then I asked him, "What would it take to recruit you as a spie? And he said, "Nothing. I have everything I need. I need nothing. I have a good family. I live in a good apartment. I go to the best shops. I get all the privileges in Moscow that are available to somebody. I have no needs. You need to find somebody that needs something." Those were very interesting.
[00:04:59] Jordan Harbinger: Did you ask them for a referral?
[00:05:01] Jack Schafer: Yes, I did.
[00:05:03] Jordan Harbinger: Who in your organization is pissed off at you, right now? I'll start there.
[00:05:06] Jack Schafer: He had a smile that said, "I can not do that." And I said, "Sir, you can do it." He says, "Well, I won't do it." I said, "Okay, that's a better answer." So we kind of bantered back and forth. And I learned a lot about recruitment just by talking to spies, the psychological makeup of somebody. So if I want to catch a spy, I look for unhappy people. If there's an American who's spying against America for a foreign government, I look for unhappy people. Because happy people do everything they can to maintain their happiness, sad people do everything they can do to be happy.
[00:05:44] Jordan Harbinger: Right. To get themselves into a different set of circumstances. Yeah.
[00:05:47] Jack Schafer: Yes.
[00:05:47] Jordan Harbinger: That's interesting. So you have to be able to read someone's vulnerability, but not just that sort of situational momentary vulnerability. Like when I look at Russian spies, and this is from like news research. So take it for what it's worth. When I look at the stories about Russian spies, they find some idiot who's been cheating on his wife in Korea and they get compromised, right? They get photos and they say—
[00:06:10] Jack Schafer: Right.
[00:06:11] Jordan Harbinger: "I'm going to ruin your happy life." Or you're somewhat happy, possibly not so happy if you're cheating on your wife's life, "If you don't give us this," but you're, it sounds like you're looking for more bigger picture vulnerability. Like this guy is depressed and he knows that his kids have no future because his situation — he's in a dead end, or he knows that the gravy train is up or that the Soviet Union is all but a foregone conclusion that this is over with. That seems harder to find than just getting some pictures of some guy shagging a mistress in another city.
[00:06:42] Jack Schafer: Well, that's where behavioral analysis comes into play. Because a lot of times what we do is we look to see — the first thing we look at is the people who are in a position to give us good information, because you don't want to recruit somebody who doesn't have information you need. The second thing we do is we look at that person to find out whether they break social norms. Are they supposed to go out at night? If there's a curfew in that embassy or the consulate at night, and those people are out at night, they broke a social norm. They've broken rules. If they're not supposed to be cheating on their wives and going out and going to clubs, they've broken a rule. They're not supposed to drink, broken a rule. Not supposed to smoke, broken a rule. So we look for people that break social norms, and then we test them to see how far or how many of those norms they'll break.
[00:07:30] Jordan Harbinger: How do you test them?
[00:07:31] Jack Schafer: You give them different scenarios. Like you would ask them to go in and bring out a telephone book, not a classified telephone. "Just bring me a telephone book of your consulate." If they say, "Okay," then they've broken the social norm. That telephone book isn't of much value to us, but they broke a social norm.
[00:07:51] Jordan Harbinger: So you're looking for somebody who will — so this is like, what does that call? The Chinese do this. And then I read about this. I guess it was the Korean War. They would say something like, they don't sit there and beat you up and ask you to betray our country. They say, "Do you think America is perfect?" And the person says, "Well, no country's perfect." "Okay. Write down a list of ways in which you think America is not perfect," and then you write down those. And it's sort of this escalating set of compliance, right? So you just say, "Hey, give me a phone book," and they go, "All right." I mean, even if I get it by not doing that, they're going to be pissed, but they're not going to be — as long as they don't know I gave it to the FBI. They're going to be like, "You took that out of the office?" "Yeah. It took it out. All right. I shouldn't have taken that out of the office." Right? So they can rationalize that small or medium level of breach. And then you say, "Hey, give me the names of the KGB." What does it call the — heard about this in the Americans.
[00:08:41] Jack Schafer: It was the KGB. Now, it's SRV.
[00:08:43] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay. Give me the names. Give me the name of your bosses who are doing the intelligence work. What is it called when they don't have diplomatic cover? Is it NOC? Right? Non-official cover, the people that are supposed to be undercover. Yeah.
[00:08:55] Jack Schafer: Right.
[00:08:56] Jordan Harbinger: And then like slowly, they're giving into this escalating set of demands. Right?
[00:09:01] Jack Schafer: Right. And once you get them to do things for you. It's hard for them not to do something higher for you because then you'll tell them, "What would your boss think if he knew you smuggled out a telephone book? You think you're in trouble now. You might be in bigger trouble," but most of the time they want to do it.
[00:09:19] Because there's a reward at the other end, right? Their dangling carrot of happiness.
[00:09:23] We look for like — I remember one officer, KGB officer, needed healthcare for his kid and they didn't have that medical treatment in Russia. And he said, "Can I get medical care in the United States?" "Of course, you can, but there's a price. You have to pay for that. And that is to give us classified information." So that's an incentive. So you look for needs. Some people just, it's an ideological need sometimes, especially with ideology, and it's similar to what you talked about with the Chinese.
[00:09:55] What we do is approach somebody and say, "You're not a traitor. Your government is the bad people. Your people are good. Your culture is good. Your country is good. It's your government that's bad. So in order for you to be a patriot, you want to take your government down and restore that to a more acceptable society."
[00:10:21] Jordan Harbinger: That makes a lot of sense.
[00:10:22] Jack Schafer: So they're not really traitors, they're patriots.
[00:10:25] Jordan Harbinger: Right, you want to help them rationalize their decision, but also reframe their decision into something else, right? Like, "Jordan, you're not betraying your country by giving this away. You're saving your son's life. What could be a higher, what's a higher calling?"
[00:10:39] Jack Schafer: Yes.
[00:10:40] Jordan Harbinger: "Pushing paper for the CIA or saving the life of your son." And then it's like, well, this is obviously, all I'm doing is giving them a phone book. You know, I'm being a good dad.
[00:10:51] Jack Schafer: Yeah. That's basically it.
[00:10:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:10:53] Jack Schafer: You're just trying to look, look for ways to satisfy me. And that's the first thing I look at when I look to recruit somebody, is, are they happy or unhappy? If they're happy people, the chances of recruiting them are almost not very slim.
[00:11:10] Jordan Harbinger: It seems like then there should be almost an entire division of counter-intelligence people making sure that intelligence officers are happy, satisfied. I mean, there's got to be a whole like, "Hey, is anything going on in your life?" I mean, yes, they check for gambling debts and do that whole background check thing. But it seems like somebody should be monitoring the health and wellbeing of all of my family members if I hold a bunch of classified information, right?
[00:11:35] Jack Schafer: In foreign countries, they do take care of their elite intelligence officers by giving them the best departments, by giving them access to the best stores with the most goods, the education. And what's interesting about that. What I learned about the KGB is people tend to hire people like themselves. So we hire those who are most like us. So if you know one KGB personality, typically you're going to know all KGB personalities, because they hire people that are like them. But in the United States, it's more difficult because we have a diversity of cultures in our intelligence. So not one personality fits all like in foreign countries, typically.
[00:12:23] Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. So in a way, having a diverse workforce of intelligence agents makes us harder to penetrate because you can't just sort of stereotype the personality when I've got people from all walks of life. America is kind of hard to pin down when it comes to personality.
[00:12:37] Jack Schafer: Yes.
[00:12:38] Jordan Harbinger: It's tough.
[00:12:39] Jack Schafer: We don't have a universal personality like other countries do or universal culture. We're more diverse.
[00:12:45] Jordan Harbinger: So it seems like from that premise, right? Of recruiting other people and also testing different FBI personnel to do that counterintelligence or the recruiting of foreign spies that sort of presupposes. And I assume you agree that social skills are learnable, but also teachable skill, right? So we're talking about sales, recruiting of spies, and dating kind of stuff. Would you agree with?
[00:13:12] Jack Schafer: I absolutely would. And that's what kind of motivated me to write The Like Switch. And that is because I recognize all the tools I needed or what was required to learn to recruit spies. And I said, wow, all we're doing is developing relationships with people and then influencing those people. Those same skills that we can use to recruit spies, we can also use in business, dating, family, and any time you have to interact with somebody, you can use these same skills.
[00:13:46] Jordan Harbinger: I'd love to break that down, the learnable and teachable elements of this. I know that's what you do in The Like Switch, but I want to — there's a few really cool, juicy morsels that I would love to talk about. One, you broke down a formula for friendship, which is great. I don't think I've seen that anywhere in such a practical type of delivery. Friendship, it's a friendship equation, right? Friendship equals frequency, proximity, intensity, and duration. Can we discuss each one of those and what they do? And that'll be in the worksheets for those listening who are like, "Wait, I got to write this down." Don't stop jogging. Don't stop driving. It'll be in the worksheets for the episode. Friendship equals frequency, proximity, intensity, plus duration. Take us through this.
[00:14:27] Jack Schafer: There were some agents who would come to us in the behavioral analysis unit and they would ask us, "How do you recruit people?" And we told them, just ingratiate yourself, develop friendships, and then intensify the relationship and then use solicitation tools to find out what that person needs. So Joe Navarro and I got together and we thought about what goes into personal relationships. What are the least common denominators that you need to maintain personal relationships? And so the first thing we thought about was proximity. You need proximity to a person to have a relationship, either virtual or physical proximity, because if somebody is in one city and somebody else's in another city and they don't know each other exists, then they need proximity to know that each other exists and without proximity, there's no relationship.
[00:15:26] Jordan Harbinger: What about now, digital proximity? It's kind of funny. We were talking about this pre-show about there's people that I'm friends with, that I've met on the Internet 10 years ago and talked to a bunch. And when we meet in person, we go, "When's the last time I saw you?" "Never, we've never met," and it's mind blowing. So I'm wondering now about digital proximity.
[00:15:43] Jack Schafer: Yeah.
[00:15:43] Jordan Harbinger: I assume you've thought about this at this point where you can be talking with somebody via Zoom or SquadCast like we are now. And if we had meetings every week after a decade, I'd like to think that we'd be pretty close friends, even if we've never met in person.
[00:15:55] Jack Schafer: Right. So the proximity can be virtual proximity also because all you need to do is know each other exists. And there are certain things that attach when you have proximity. It's as if people share the same space, there's a mutual liking that occurs. People are mutually attracted to one another who just simply share the same space. They may not communicate with one another, but if they share the same office and they see each other daily, then that proximity causes that mutual attraction. Mutual predisposition to like somebody.
[00:16:31] So the second thing you need is frequency. You have to be frequently by that person, but that doesn't necessarily make a relationship. What you have to do is also have duration. So if you're frequently with somebody and you have duration with that person, then there's more likely a relationship will develop. So the more you spend time with somebody, the more influence you have over that person. So if you think back of all the good relationships you had in the past, those people spend a lot of time with you.
[00:17:04] Jordan Harbinger: Right. That's why you're closer friends with the people that you go hiking for a week with than somebody that you saw once a week for 20 minutes while you're checking into your hotel or your gym.
[00:17:16] Jack Schafer: Yes. That's the principal there. And the last thing that we'd looked at was the, there has to be some intensity to the relationship. And the first one is proximity, it's either there or not. Frequency, you can measure with a watch or a hash mark. Duration, you can do the same thing, it's measurable, but intensity is not measurable objectively, but you can use non-verbals to measure intensity. And one of the non-verbals, in fact, the strongest non-verbal intensifier to relationship is mutual gaze. We look at people, we like, and we don't look at people, we don't like. And when we look at people we like, it releases oxytocin, which is a bonding hormone.
[00:18:01] So if you have a dog, if anybody has a dog, what the dog does, it typically will go up to you and stare right in your eyes for a long period of time. And it's like, they're looking deep into your soul. What they're doing is they're releasing oxytocin in their mind, in their brain. And you're also, when you stare back, releasing oxytocin and that's what creates the bond between you and your animal.
[00:18:27] Jordan Harbinger: There's been some science around this and I don't know how strong the science is, but people were saying or these scientists hypothesized that dogs actually just learned to manipulate us over many thousands of years of domestication. Like they know how to release oxytocin in our brain. They're just like, "I'm going to lay down on the floor and stare at my human for three hours. And at some points he's going to look right at me and right in my eyes. And you know, they're not thinking about it scientifically, obviously, but it's been working. So the dogs that are more likely to do that are the ones that got domesticated. And it's probably the same with cats, but I think we all know if you've had a dog and you've had a cat, dogs are much better at creating that bond. Cats, only, they want a bond when they're hungry and then they want you to leave them alone.
[00:19:08] Jack Schafer: Well, dogs need their human masters for food and care and love and all those things, attention. And they figured out a way on how to do it. And that's why people are so attracted to their animals because of that oxytocin and the bond that develops. So I found that quite interesting. So it works the same way with people.
[00:19:30] You know, you say, young lovers, they look into each other's eyes for a long period of time. They're sitting there staring at one another. Well, they're just releasing that oxytocin and developing that bond between them.
[00:19:42] Jordan Harbinger: Now, if I'm laying in bed and I look at my wife, she's either going to ask me what's wrong or she's going to ask me if I fell asleep with my eyes open, somehow. "What's wrong with you? Why are you staring at me?"
[00:19:54] Jack Schafer: Well, there is something to that because if you see older couples at restaurants, they don't look into one another's eyes anymore. Something called that comfortable—
[00:20:04] Jordan Harbinger: Quiet comfort.
[00:20:05] Jack Schafer: Quiet comfort. I know that person, that person knows me. They're not going anywhere. I'm not going anywhere so we can do what we want to do and still have that assurance that that person's going to be there. We don't have to take those steps anymore. So people often mistake that for, well, that couple doesn't get along because one's reading the paper, the other one's eating or vice versa or something. And you say, no, that's quiet comfort there. They're just very comfortable with one another.
[00:20:31] Jordan Harbinger: It's very true. I remember when I was dating Jen. We would go out and we would say, we would see these couples and both were on their phone, or one would be like, yeah, like you said, reading the magazine or the newspaper and the other one's eating or looking at their phone. And we said, "Let's never be those couples. They're just wasting all this precious time they have with one another." Now we go out and I'm like, "Jen, hey, do you want to do dah, dah, dah?" And she goes, "What?" Because she's on Instagram and I'm reading Reddit or I'm reading the newspaper. And I realize now it's not, oh, we don't care about each other anymore. I don't need to have her brain secreting oxytocin in synchrony with my brain because we're married and it's not like we never do that. I just don't want to do it right now. I want to eat my food. Or I want to look at this article. I'm here all week, right?
[00:21:14] Jack Schafer: Yeah. That's basically what happens. But that oxytocin is the initial bonding agent that gets people together until longer bonds can take hold.
[00:21:26] Jordan Harbinger: It sort of crafts the — lays the groundwork for the emotional connection and all the other things that older couples or more long-term relationships already have in place. So maybe the neural wiring is kind of already, already there.
[00:21:39] Jack Schafer: It also occurs when we engage in reproductive activities. You know, both people release the oxytocin and that creates that bond, turning that intimate relationship. And that's because you need a bond between two people if there's a baby in the offing in the old days. So they wanted that bond.
[00:21:59] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And I believe that it happens when breastfeeding—
[00:22:03] Jack Schafer: Yes.
[00:22:03] Jordan Harbinger: —and things like that. So mothers and babies are especially bonded that way.
[00:22:07] Jack Schafer: Yes.
[00:22:07] Jordan Harbinger: That's a touchy subject because a lot of women now don't breastfeed and they want to argue that that's not the case. And I will hold up my hands and say science is whatever it is. And I'm not up on that. So don't send me angry emails about how kids are not bonded with their mothers if they didn't breastfeed. I don't want to — I don't have a dog in this fight.
[00:22:25] Jack Schafer: Well, why don't we say that's one way—
[00:22:28] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[00:22:28] Jack Schafer: —to develop it. You can also do it with touch, hold the baby, caress the baby, talk to the baby, look into the baby's eyes so we can look at other alternative ways to create that bond outside of breastfeeding.
[00:22:44] Jordan Harbinger: You're listening to The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Jack Schafer. We'll be right back.
[00:22:49] This episode is sponsored in part by Canva. Making content is an essential part of what I do to keep the show going. It hasn't always been a seamless creative process. We need thumbnails for YouTube, designs on the website, social media. None of the above are really my thing, but ever since we found Canva Pro we can design anything like a pro on any device. Jen's already used canvas to create professional looking invoices, invitations, cards. They've got thousands of professionally made templates that are easy to customize with simple drag and drop features. There's even a potty training thing that we printed out and are using. If you're a talented design pro, you can create a design from scratch using the extensive library of tools, fonts, videos, photos, all readily available within Canva. So you don't have to search online. You don't have to pay extra for stock images either.
[00:23:32] Jen Harbinger: Design like a pro with Canva Pro. Right now, you can get a free 45-day extended trial when you use our promo code, just go to canva.M-E/jordan. To get your free 45-day extended trial. That's C-A-N-V-A.M-E/jordan, canva.me/jordan.
[00:23:49] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by GoodRx. Getting the care you need to stay healthy shouldn't be hard or expensive. Everyone should be able to afford their medications, check out GoodRx. They can help find the lowest price on prescriptions every time. Did you know different pharmacies charge different prices for the same drug? It doesn't make any sense to me, but whatever. With GoodRx, you can instantly compare prices for your prescription at over 70,000 pharmacies like CVS, Kroger, Walgreens, Rite Aid, and more. Save up to 80 percent off, 80 percent kind of a big deal. GoodRx is free and easy to use. And many times it's often cheaper than actually using your insurance co-pay or Medicare. My father-in-law recently went to get his prescription filled, and even though he already has good insurance, he pulled up the GoodRx app, showed the pharmacist and it saved him 30 bucks.
[00:24:31] Jen Harbinger: Start saving up to 80 percent on your prescriptions today. Go to goodrx.com/jordan. That's goodrx.com/jordan. Goodrx.com/jordan. GoodRx is not insurance but can be used instead of insurance. In 2020, GoodRx users received an average savings of over 70 percent off retail prices.
[00:24:49] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored in part by Simple Mobile. At Simple Mobile, you get the no contract advantage. You can get a powerful nationwide 5G network, all without a contract. 5G capable device and SIM required. Actual availability, coverage, and speed may vary. 5G network not available in all areas. 5G upload speeds not yet available. Simple Mobile out with the old in with this.
[00:25:11] Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. I love that you listened to this. I love all the feedback I get from y'all. Please do consider supporting those who support us. We put all of the sponsors, all those codes, all those URLs, they're all in one page. jordanharbinger.com/deals is where you can find it.
[00:25:27] And don't forget, we've got worksheets for many episodes. So if you want some of the drills and exercises talked about during this show, those are all in one easy place as well. That link to the worksheets is also in the show notes. jordanharbinger.com/podcasts.
[00:25:40] Now back to Dr. Jack Schafer.
[00:25:43] Tell me about how the Chinese use this approach, the friendship equation. Knowingly or unknowingly, they were recruiting a bunch of — they are recruiting a bunch of scientists to give away classified and unclassified information. It seems like they have a pretty good mastery of this. Our earlier example was the Chinese during the Korean War. Obviously, they've only gotten better at this type of intelligence gathering.
[00:26:05] Jack Schafer: Well, they're very, very good at it. And what they do is, well, let's talk about the inverse relationship between frequency and duration. If you spend a lot of time with a person, you don't have to spend as much duration with that person to maintain that relationship. So if you don't see that person for a long time, let's say you haven't seen your friends for five years, you see them and you go out and have dinner. And next thing you know, you're in the restaurant for five hours and you go, "Oh my gosh, it's been five hours, we've been sitting here." And that's because the frequency was low. Therefore, the duration of each time you meet has to be higher to maintain that relationship.
[00:26:46] So with that in mind, when our scientist goes over to China, he's invited to go over and they typically have one person assigned to that scientist, the quote-unquote translator or minder, and what happens is that person now has proximity with you. But since the frequency is low, you're only over there for maybe five days or seven days. So the duration has to be high. So they wake you up in the morning and they're with you until they put you to bed at night.
[00:27:18] And during that time, what are they trying to do? They're trying to develop a rapport with you. Get you to like them. And it turns out that one of the ways they do that is through common ground. So they want to find out where you're from, how many kids you have, what your religion is, what your pastimes are, what your hobbies are. And to the scientists great surprise, guess what? The Chinese minder has the same interest to develop that common ground. And also what they want to do is they want to use elicitation to get your birthday, your wife's birthday, your kids' birthday, your holidays that you celebrate and that's for use later. So they're going to elicit all that information from you.
[00:28:03] And then what they do is, with the intensity, of course, they're with you all day and they're flattering you. They're complimenting you. They're doing all the things that are good. And it's funny that some ugly scientists go to China and all of a sudden they're the most handsome people in the world. And I just told a scientist, I said, "Isn't that odd?"
[00:28:26] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You've been ignored your whole life in the United States, but when you go to China, the models are coming out from the woodwork to come and try and date you.
[00:28:34] Jack Schafer: Yes. And then you go give your presentation and of course they use elicitation again. And they'll walk up to you because you're an expert you've been called to China. Now, there's a predisposition for humans to prove that they're an expert in a field. So what better way to prove it than to talk about it. So a Chinese scientist will come up to one of the American scientists and say, "I've been working on this problem. Can you help me with this? Can I get your advice?"
[00:29:06] Jordan Harbinger: The Benjamin Franklin effect, right? asking for the advice.
[00:29:09] Jack Schafer: Yeah. And then what they say is, "Oh, you made a mistake here." You're almost predisposed to make that correction because you have to prove you're an expert. Because what if you say, "I don't know how that works," then you're no longer an expert.
[00:29:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Or I can't tell you because that would prejudice — I'm not supposed to tell you how to solve this problem. "Well, thanks, jerk, I'm asking you for advice and you're keeping it close to the vest. What's your problem? Aren't we colleagues?" Right?
[00:29:37] Jack Schafer: Yes. And they developed such good rapport with you that you feel obligated through reciprocation. There's the need to reciprocate. So if they do something for you, you have this overwhelming need to do something back for them. So they use all these psychological techniques to put psychological pressure on you to make that correction. So you'll say, "Oh, you have to make this correction here." So they got the answer to one bit of knowledge. They do this with a hundred scientists, they have a hundred bits of knowledge. So we kind of get hacked by bits and pieces.
[00:30:13] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So it's like a jigsaw puzzle where — if I think, "Hey, I'm just giving them one piece of this 10,000-piece puzzle. It's not a big deal. If they've already figured out the other 999 pieces, this isn't really going to change anything. I'm just being polite by giving it to them."
[00:30:27] Jack Schafer: Yes.
[00:30:28] Jordan Harbinger: But if they do it 10,000 times and they get a different piece of the puzzle, every single time we've given them the whole puzzle.
[00:30:33] Jack Schafer: Yes.
[00:30:34] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:30:34] Jack Schafer: And now, here's what happens, they'll say, "Your lecture was so successful. We're going to give you the big ballroom next time. And why don't you bring your wife with you next time. So she can see all the wonders of China, all expenses are paid, of course." And so since there's no proximity, when that scientist leaves, they have to increase the frequency, duration, and intensity. So what they do is they'll send you a birthday card or a little birthday present to you, maybe your wife. If you're Jewish, they'll celebrate, they'll send you Hanukkah. They'll send you all the holidays. If you're Christian, they'll send you Easter, Christmas cards, Santa Claus to the kids. They'll send little presents. So while you don't have proximity, they take advantage of frequency, duration, and intensity to maintain that relationship.
[00:31:27] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So if we think about the friendship equation, like a set of buckets on a scale, we have to keep them filled up. And if we can't keep one of them filled up, we have to overcompensate in the other buckets.
[00:31:40] Jack Schafer: Yeah. That's actually a good analogy. So what would happen is I would debrief the scientists that came back from China and say, "Was there anything unusual?" "No." "Did they ask you any classified questions?" "No, they were just so nice." And I'm going like, "No, no, no. Something's wrong." So now I asked, "Was there proximity? And who was it with?" "Well, one translator the whole time, morning, noon, and night." "Okay. So they were with you and they were frequently with you. The duration was extreme and there was a lot of intensity. Oh, they got your birthday and they got—" "Oh yeah, I told him that. That's not classified." I say, "Well, of course not." So based on just asking questions about their personal relationship index, we can tell whether there was a relationship developed between that scientist and the minder. Then I can tell whether they've been elicited or not.
[00:32:36] Jordan Harbinger: It seems like for them, and for anyone doing this, it must be kind of a lot of work, right? Because unless you know someone pretty well by the time they've already set foot on Chinese or American soil, you don't really know what they're going to be like. Like what if I'm a physicist and I've got this decent reputation and then I go to China and you've set me up with this kind of intellectual guy who's married and has a little kid just like me. And I go, "All right, man. I want to go to the nastiest grossest establishments you have here in Shanghai. I want to do rails of illegal drugs all night long, and I'm going to blow off the call tomorrow and you're going to lie for me because we're going to have an awesome time." They kind of have to — either that same guy has to go along with it. Or he's like, "Got to go back," and go, "Look, we need one of the 20-year-old guys to go out with Jordan because he's wild. I can't be doing this. I'm 40, you know? What the hell?"
[00:33:30] Jack Schafer: Well, what I do with before the scientists go, I do brief them to the personal relationship index. "This is what they're going to do to develop a relationship with you. Be aware. Don't give out information that you don't have. And when you leave, they're going to send you letters and cards and gifts. So be aware of that. Report all those things, because they are recruiting you to give over secrets."
[00:33:58] Jordan Harbinger: Right, okay, that makes sense because a lot of people are going, "Report a freaking Hanukkah card. Why?" And the reason is because you and your line of counterintelligence behavioral analysis, you're looking for the beginning of the ladder, right? Because you're probably not going to see the later elements of the ladder. No one's going to report, "You know, you were right. They gave me a bunch of holiday cards, but now I'm selling them pieces of the nuclear reactor." Right? You can only see the beginning of the ladder of the compliance ladder, the innocuous stuff. So if you are getting reports of, "You know, we've got another fruit basket and it's delicious and it's definitely expensive." You know that they're going after me pretty hard if I start reporting, "My third trip to China this year, except I'm staying at the five-star hotels in Shanghai and Nanjing, and I'm flying private jets from Beijing to Shanghai and all around the country." You know that they're coming after me hard. And I'm just saying, "Oh, I'm just doing my job. I'm a big shot around here, but here's your stupid report, FBI." You know now, "Okay, Jordan is being pursued, take additional steps to make sure that he doesn't sell them parts of whatever blueprints."
[00:35:02] Jack Schafer: Well, we just make you aware. I'll say, "Jordan, let's talk about how Chinese recruit people." And after I tell you how they recruit people, "Let's go over what you've done and what they've done to you in China." And then all of a sudden you go, "Whoa, it looks like they're recruiting me." "Yes, sure. It does." So we can do two things. "Jordan, we want you to continue to be recruited." Or, "We want you to stop, shut the thing down."
[00:35:27] Jordan Harbinger: Stop going to China, yeah.
[00:35:28] Jack Schafer: Or, "If you want to be our spy, if you want a spy for me, then we'll let them continue to develop you until they ask you for classified, then, we'll know what they're looking for."
[00:35:39] Jordan Harbinger: And then what? Do I feed them fake stuff?
[00:35:41] Jack Schafer: Yes.
[00:35:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay.
[00:35:42] Jack Schafer: Yes.
[00:35:43] Jordan Harbinger: That's interesting.
[00:35:43] Jack Schafer: There's a lot of ways to handle this. There's a lot of play action there when you're being recruited.
[00:35:49] Jordan Harbinger: That makes sense.
[00:35:50] Jack Schafer: But if Jordan says, "I'm too nervous, I don't want to do it." Then I'll say, "Well, don't go to China anymore."
[00:35:55] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:35:55] Jack Schafer: "Stop," or, lose your security clearance.
[00:35:58] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Obviously the most fun option is to continue being recruited and wine and dine and give them fake stuff and then keep them super, super happy and keep cashing those checks, right? or whatever.
[00:36:08] Jack Schafer: That's what we hope for.
[00:36:09] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, sure. Although I can imagine, like, as I get older and have more relationships with family and have kids the less appealing it is for me to go to China and risk them figuring out what I'm doing and keeping me in a dry prison cell, or not dry.
[00:36:26] Jack Schafer: Because you're happy and you want to maintain your happiness. You don't want to do anything that's going to jeopardize your happiness. So you have a wife and kids and a nice house and a nice job. Why would you jeopardize any of that to do something risky to lose that happiness?
[00:36:43] Jordan Harbinger: So what's interesting here though, is if — it doesn't have to be Chinese and Chinese people right now who are listening are like, "Come on. Why are we always the bad guys?" If I'm going to North Korea — well, that's a bad example. If I'm going to Oman, right? And I'm being recruited by Omanis intelligence all the time. They're looking for unhappy people because I'm more vulnerable.
[00:37:04] Jack Schafer: Right.
[00:37:04] Jordan Harbinger: And so as a counterintelligence agent or a double agent or whatever you'd have me be as an FBI officer agent, it's also better if I'm not that happy, because then I'm willing to do more risky stuff. So you're kind of battling over these very recruitable people. Right? Because the thing that makes them more likely to take the extra risk for country is also the thing that makes them more recruitable to the enemy.
[00:37:28] Jack Schafer: Right. Because we look for risk takers.
[00:37:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And people who are happy, take less risk.
[00:37:33] Jack Schafer: Yeah.
[00:37:33] Jordan Harbinger: So that's a dance that you're doing with intelligence all the time.
[00:37:37] Jack Schafer: This isn't anything confidential. All intelligence services use the same techniques because human behavior goes across culture. So what our job is is to make people aware of how they could be recruited. Once they know how they can be recruited, then they become aware of it. And there's some called name it and claim it. So they can say, "Aha, I see the technique you're using. I have a name for it. And now I'm going to prevent you from doing that."
[00:38:07] Jordan Harbinger: Naming and claiming. That's good. So that's kind of. The psychological awareness of whatever may be a cognitive bias or an event that's happening, if I name it and claim it, it's less powerful. Theoretically, it's less powerful, it works less effectively against me.
[00:38:23] Jack Schafer: And you want to know how to practice that?
[00:38:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:38:24] Jack Schafer: Go to a car dealership, talk to a salesman. They will use all kinds of psychological sales techniques on their customers. So my son wanted to learn these techniques of behavioral analysis. So I said, "Let's go to a car dealership." We went into the car dealer. The car dealership talked to my son and he says, "Oh, you're using the puppy dog technique."
[00:38:48] Jordan Harbinger: He said it out loud?
[00:38:49] Jack Schafer: Yeah. Well, I said, name it, claim it. And I told him later, "You're supposed to name it in your mind."
[00:38:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you name it in your mind, dummy.
[00:38:59] Jack Schafer: He went, "No, no, no, no. That's not it." He says, "Oh, you're trying to sell me a payment, instead of a car," because a lot of car salesmen say, "I can show you a payment of $400 a month." "Well, I'm not interested in buying a payment. I'm interested in buying a car. Let me worry about how much it cost." So then my son will say, "Oh, you're trying to sell me a payment instead of a car." And the guy finally says, "Wait a minute. You know too much about how car salespeople work." And he just laughed. Yeah.
[00:39:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Because either you're a car salesman yourself or you're coming from Jack Schafer's class and we've had 13 of those people here this week. Get out of here. Go buy a damn car. I got kids to feed."
[00:39:39] Jack Schafer: Yeah. So anyway, my son learned that just doing it.
[00:39:44] Jordan Harbinger: That makes sense. Even sort of doing that with telemarketers. Obviously, a car dealership is a great place to do that because there's nonverbal stuff happening too.
[00:39:51] Jack Schafer: Yeah.
[00:39:52] Jordan Harbinger: You sit down and they go, "Oh, I've got to ask my manager," the appeal to authority, right?
[00:39:56] Jack Schafer: Yeah.
[00:39:56] Jordan Harbinger: "Oh, he says I can't do that."
[00:39:58] Jack Schafer: Yeah.
[00:39:59] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. There's a lot going on at a car — or a mattress dealership, but car dealers probably, maybe they're easier to come by and possibly more skilled. I don't know. I've never bought a mattress in person.
[00:40:09] Jack Schafer: Yeah. They're difficult to negotiate with a mattress.
[00:40:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Yes. Indeed.
[00:40:14] Jack Schafer: One guy said, "You're selling me a mattress without a bed frame. What kind of nonsense is that? That's like selling me a car without an engine." And they said, "All right, we'll throw in that." "Thank you." And that technique is you seal the deal and then you ask for something extra.
[00:40:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:40:33] Jack Schafer: My son recently bought a Lexus and I was with him and I said,"I sure would like a nice coffee cup with Lexus on it though. That black coffee cup with the Lexus logo." That guy goes, "All right. I'll throw that in."
[00:40:49] Jordan Harbinger: Well, we only have 700 of these in the dealership, so let me see if I can find a clean one. Yeah.
[00:40:55] Jack Schafer: So what you do is you always add a little extra. I buy the car, you say, "Okay, I buy the car. Oh, wait a minute. I need the undercoating, rust proofing. Oh, I need that. But can you throw that in?" "Well, all right. We'll throw that in." So that's just a technique — because emotionally that salesman says "I've sold it. I've got my commission."
[00:41:16] Jordan Harbinger: It's mine to lose.
[00:41:17] Jack Schafer: Yes. It's mine to lose.
[00:41:21] Jordan Harbinger: This is The Jordan Harbinger Show with our guest Jack Schafer. We'll be right back.
[00:41:25] This episode is sponsored in part by Starbucks. Starbucks Tripleshot Energy is an extra strength coffee beverage in a can. With 225 milligrams of caffeine, that's the Starbucks coffee that you love ready to drink. So you have the energy to do things that matter to you. Great for keeping you energized on a long road trip. Getting you amped to — if you can say that — to tackle the workday ahead. Offer in classic flavors like cafe, mocha, and caramel. Also with zero sugar and dairy free flavors like black and vanilla. Going to the coffee shop is great if you get the time, but it can interrupt productivity and sometimes I just can't get there, especially now with the COVID. Keep Starbucks Tripleshot Energy in your fridge to drink every now and then for a little pick me up and pro tip poured over ice. Tripleshot is also perfect to throw in your bag when you need it.
[00:42:04] Jen Harbinger: What gives you energy? Find your Starbucks Tripleshot Energy online or at your local store.
[00:42:09] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by SimpliSafe. There's big news from our favorite home security company. SimpliSafe has just launched their new wireless outdoor security camera. That's right. SimpliSafe, The system that US news and world report named the best home security system of 2021, just got even better, this brand new wireless outdoor security cameras engineered with all the advanced tech and security features you want and need to help keep you and your family safe. 1080p HD resolution with an 8X zoom, so you can zoom into faces and license plates. Let's admit it. You're going to spy on your neighbors. It has color night vision. Two-way audio so you can scare off intruders or raccoons. And set up, it's super simple to set up. It only takes a few minutes. Plus rechargeable battery means you can put it anywhere you want. No outlet needed. The new SimpliSafe wireless outdoor security system takes whole home security to a whole new level.
[00:42:53] Jen Harbinger: To learn more about the exciting new SimpliSafe wireless outdoor security camera, visit simplisafe.com/jordan. What's more simply safe is celebrating this new camera by offering 20 percent off your entire new system and your first month of monitoring service free when you enroll in interactive monitoring. Again, that's simplisafe.com/jordan.
[00:44:08] And now for the conclusion of part one with Jack Schafer.
[00:44:13] I suppose you can push it a little too far, right? Like, "Oh, I need an extended warranty." "Well, I can't really do that." So you kind of have to find that sweet spot where they can probably without any real authority. I mean, the mug is obviously such an easy win, but even something like, "Can you throw a spare tire?" I don't know if cars come with spare tires, they probably do. But if there isn't one, "Hey, can you throw one in the trunk?" "Oh, I'll have to go to the shop and get that." "All right. Go to the shop and get it. It's probably 200." I don't know how much tires are. 200 bucks if you get it from the dealer cheaper, if you get it anywhere else.
[00:44:41] Jack Schafer: Or you can do that with real estate because we bought a house and I said, "Well, we need this. We need that. We need this." And I kept pushing little by little by little, and I said, "You know, it'd be nice to have a patio cover." And the real estate lady said, "That's it. No more, none." Home Depot is three blocks that way.
[00:44:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.
[00:44:56] Jack Schafer: "You're not getting a patio cover."
[00:44:58] Jordan Harbinger: Go get one.
[00:44:59] Jack Schafer: So we got as much as we could using that technique.
[00:45:04] Jordan Harbinger: Let's talk about friend and foe signals. These are interesting. And some of them are a little bit, I don't want to say obvious because things are obvious to different people. You know, smiles, we talked last time, you were on the show about head tilts and eyebrow flashes and eye contact and extended eye gaze, things like that, touch, touch acceptance, but I'd love to talk about how these are used. In the book, you give the example, a couple examples I hadn't really thought about, which is how street people, so homeless or houseless people, use these. That's particularly insightful. I don't think a lot of people think about this.
[00:45:38] Jack Schafer: Yeah. Especially in a big city, there's a lot of people on the street that are looking for handouts and they can read people very well. If you give them eye contact and you give them an eyebrow flash. They know that you're a soft target and they will follow you and hound you to give them something. And how does the person know that you're a soft target? Because when we eyebrow flash, that is a signal, a long distance signal, that says, "I'm not a threat." So that tells that person that you're not a threat. Of course, the other person that has targeted you is going to eyebrow flash back, let you know that they're not a threat. And then typically, they'll tilt their head and they'll smile. And what the head tilt does is it exposes the carotid artery which is a very vulnerable part of your body. So you're telling that person, "I don't fear you because I'm going to expose my carotid." And you know, back to animals, dogs do that. As soon as the owners come home, what does the dog do? Sits and tilts his head and lets the owner know that they're not a threat, so it's a friend signal. Or else the dog will flip over and you scratch their tummy.
[00:46:49] Jordan Harbinger: Right. That's a more obvious sort of a showcase of vulnerability for sure.
[00:46:53] Jack Schafer: Yeah.
[00:46:53] Jordan Harbinger: The other example you gave in the book was interesting about bad neighborhoods, right? And it's the same advice that you get when you look at self-defense where it's — don't look down at the ground, don't have your phone out, don't have your headphones in, look up, be aware, walk with a purpose, that kind of thing, to make yourself less of a target. So you're kind of taking all the likeability nonverbals and you're sort of reversing those or at least making them neutral.
[00:47:15] Jack Schafer: So when you pass somebody who's panhandling or trying to wipe your windshield, what you want to do is give them what we call the urban scowl. It's just the opposite. No brows, get that tight jaw and cheek muscles. And that person will look at that and say, "That guy's not prey. He's not going to be a soft target. I'm going to not get anything from him. I'm going to go find somebody else who's more vulnerable." That's why tourists who go into big cities get in a lot of trouble because they're typically from small towns and everybody waves at each other and everybody's friendly and they share all these friend signals, eyebrow flash and head tilt and smiling. And they get in a lot of trouble. They haven't learned that urban scowl.
[00:47:58] Jordan Harbinger: I wonder if you have any thoughts on this because you did do a lot of counterintelligence during, I guess, the Cold War. When I travel, I used to live in the former East Germany. It wasn't east Germany when I was there, of course, but it was a few years after that. I've been to North Korea, I've been to other formerly socialist and currently socialist countries. One thing that the people seem to have in common is you don't see a lot of neighbors or people talking to each other on the streets. Interaction is very minimal. Eye contact and friendly verbal communication kind of doesn't really even happen. And even when, when I was in East Germany, I was there for a long time, when I was friendly to neighbors that I didn't know, other kids in the neighborhood would say, "Why are you waving at him? You don't know him," and I'd go, "Well, isn't he like, he lives two houses down from you," and he'd go, "Yeah, but we don't talk to each other, especially that guy." And I'd say, "Why?" And he'd go, "You're too friendly. You just don't understand." And that had to be kind of an East German remnants leftover behavior, because if you're in my neighborhood in the United States, even if it's three blocks away, if you're out cutting your lawn and your lawn mowers off, or even if it's on, I'm waving, I'm saying hi, I'm smiling at you. But in East Germany, they were really not about that. It was like, don't even make eye contact with neighbors that you don't know.
[00:49:09] Jack Schafer: In fact, I was in New York a couple of days ago and I'm walking in Manhattan Times Square. There's like thousands of people there and nobody's looking at each other, they're just looking straight ahead. They're minding their own business. They got urban scowls on and they just go by. Then you can tell the tourists.
[00:49:27] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:49:28] Jack Schafer: They're looking around and eyebrow flashes, smiling and waving. So, you know the vulnerable people and the people that are from New York.
[00:49:37] Jordan Harbinger: Less common signals of, I guess, friendliness or openness that I read and thought were pretty interesting was one was whispering. You know, that makes sense. But you don't think about it too much. Only like close friends or couples or close colleagues may whisper to each other because you have to get closer. And especially when you're talking about whispering right in someone's ear, that's pretty much only done with family or significant other, right?
[00:50:01] Jack Schafer: Or friends, good friends. If two students are sitting in my class and they lean over and whisper to one another, I know that there's a relationship there. And so sometimes I call them out, "So how long have you guys been going out?" "How'd you know we're together?" "It's obvious."
[00:50:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's obvious. You don't have to hold hands in class in order for Jack Schafer to know that you're together.
[00:50:24] Jack Schafer: I would just say, what they try to do is one will sit at one side of the room. The other one will sit on the other side of the room and they sit there and look at each other. And they're always looking at each other. Sometimes they'll stare and they'll do the nonverbal signals. I said, "So are you two guys a couple or you two girls or whatever a couple?" "Yeah. How did you know? We just sat apart so we wouldn't be associated with one another." I said, "You're doing it nonverbally."
[00:50:48] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That must be really fun because you can see everyone in the room pretty easily when you're at the front of the class.
[00:50:54] Jack Schafer: Yeah. I always look for that and I teach a behavioral analysis class, so it's my way of saying, anytime you exist, you are signaling to people nonverbally what you're thinking and what you're doing or what you might want to do.
[00:51:12] Jordan Harbinger: Was it you who told me? It was either you or Robin Dreeke, who I know you used to work with, who said something like you're always communicating nonverbally even if you think you're not, right?
[00:51:19] Jack Schafer: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And that's what we look for those nuances. You mentioned food forking earlier—
[00:51:26] Jordan Harbinger: Food forking was another one, right? And that totally makes sense, right? I don't hang out with someone, if I'm having lunch with you for the first time I don't go, "Oh, that looks good. Let me get some of those fries." You know, that's something I only do with close friends and family. And even sometimes it depends on the friend, ?
[00:51:40] Jack Schafer: What we did was — I discovered this because I was out with my family and I was with my daughter and my son and my wife and I had the succulent shrimp. You know how you get shrimp, and I'm leaving that succulent one for the last, just the last good taste of the shrimp, right? So lo and behold, what does my daughter do? "That looks good." Reaches over with a fork, stabs that last shrimp on my plate, and eats it. And I looked at her and — nothing, I wasn't angry. I wasn't mad. And I said, "Wow," I should be pissed, but I wasn't. I said, "Ooh," that's because we have a relationship.
[00:52:17] Jordan Harbinger: Right.
[00:52:17] Jack Schafer: You share each other's food.
[00:52:19] Jordan Harbinger: A relationship that is only slightly damaged by the fact that I was saving that shrimp, right?
[00:52:24] Jack Schafer: Or the last piece of chocolate cake.
[00:52:25] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:52:27] Jack Schafer: You drive all the way home thinking how I want that last piece of chocolate cake, somebody's taken it.
[00:52:32] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. That's right. Yeah. Like if you weren't my offspring, you'd be out on your ass right now. Yeah.
[00:52:37] Jack Schafer: What I like to do sometimes is play like little behavioral jokes. We went out with a colleague of ours that I knew would not let anybody food fork, right? So I told him, the new guy, just reach out or grab something off his plate and eat it. The guy went ballistic. He put his hands up and says, "Don't touch my food." "Sorry. I just wanted to taste it. It looked so good." He said, "You ordered your own food. Don't taste mine."
[00:53:10] Jordan Harbinger: So where do you think that comes from? Like where do you think those people who are so resistant to that type of thing — is that like growing up with a lot of brothers and sisters who take your food? I mean, what's going on there?
[00:53:19] Jack Schafer: I don't know. I grew up with 10 kids in my family and we did a lot of food forking.
[00:53:25] Jordan Harbinger: I bet, yeah, without forks, yeah.
[00:53:27] Jack Schafer: Yeah without forks. Yeah, we'd reach over and just grab stuff.
[00:53:31] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:53:31] Jack Schafer: So I don't think it's a large family. Maybe it's a small family.
[00:53:34] Jordan Harbinger: Maybe, yeah, the only child.
[00:53:35] Jack Schafer: They're not used to people interacting that way.
[00:53:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Maybe that's it. I feel, you know, I'm an only child, as many people love pointing out, but I don't mind if somebody reaches over and grabs a handful of food, although I don't know. Did I grow up that way or did I learn that? Because stabbing people with a knife or a fork after they reach over to get your fries is a good way to have no friends. It's hard to say. I don't mind it, but I do see other people get super upset about that. And there's people who don't look — "Can I use your computer?" "No." "Oh, he must be joking." "I'm not joking. Don't touch my computer." And there's a lot of people who are much more territorial than others about everything from food to desk space.
[00:54:15] Jack Schafer: Yeah. So it's something that could be observable. So if you're observing a couple together and they're sharing each other's food, then it's like the Lady and the Tramp thing where they grab the spaghetti and they end up kissing, you know, because they're sharing their food.
[00:54:30] Jordan Harbinger: What is it with territoriality and territorial boundaries? One thing, in fact, I think this is from the book as well from The Like Switch that people are slower to leave a parking space. You know, you're pulling into the parking lot at Target and you see somebody go to their car and they sit in the car and you're going, "What is taking so long?" Like you, okay, you get in the car, you get your keys out, you navigate to where you're going to go. But it's been like a minute. I'm sitting here with my turn signal on, blocking traffic. What's your problem? And then they're in there, they're reading something. They're laughing at their phones. They're on their phone making a call and you go, "Would you have done this if I weren't waiting? I don't know if you would have. I feel like you're taking your time."
[00:55:08] Jack Schafer: No. People generally will not do that. When their body extends to their car and their car extends to the space, "This is my space. I own it. And I'm not leaving it until I'm good and ready and you can wait," and it kind of gives them a sense of power.
[00:55:25] Jordan Harbinger: I feel like small people do that. Like how small and passive aggressive do you have to be to go slower when someone else is waiting for you? When I see somebody waiting for me, I typically try to go as fast as I can do safely, because I know how annoying it is to sit there and wait, especially if you got a baby crying, it's like, "I just want diapers. Get the hell out of there."
[00:55:43] Jack Schafer: Well, I do that too, but there are people that, that own space and they won't give it up.
[00:55:48] Jordan Harbinger: I could see that, I could see that it's especially — I always wonder if the people who are in those giant cars, those lifted trucks — you know, who you are — is that a space thing? Like how often do you drive this thing in a mud pit for fun? Like, I don't know if I believe you. It's a territory thing.
[00:56:05] Jack Schafer: Yeah. Or a family thing. I'm not sure which one.
[00:56:08] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's possible. And I know I'm going to get like one-star reviews from lifted truck guys. It's not all of you. I know some of you are driving around in the mud and it looks fun. The rest of you though, I've got your number.
[00:56:22] Stay tuned after the show, we've got a trailer of our interview with Molly Bloom who ran infamous underground poker games in Los Angeles and New York that were attended by A-listers, mobsters, and eventually landed her in hot water with the FBI. If you've seen the movie Molly's Game, you'll know she was a master of psychology and used a lot of the tactics and techniques that she taught us here on the show. Coming right up.
[00:56:45] Molly Bloom: I went to LA and needed to get the first job that I could and got hired by this guy who was a pretty demanding boss. I was his personal assistant. He said, "I need you to serve drinks at my poker game." So I'm like, "Okay, great." And I bring my playlist and my cheese plate. And I'm thinking, "You know the players are going to be these overgrown frat boys," but then, Ben Affleck walks in the room and Leo DiCaprio and a politician that was very well-recognized and heads of studios, heads of banks. And all of a sudden I had this light bulb moment that poker is my Trojan horse. I just need to control and have power over this game because it has this incredible hold over these people. Why do these guys with their access to anyone and anything come to this dingy basement to play this game?
[00:57:33] Jordan Harbinger: What is the most money you've seen someone lose in one night?
[00:57:36] Molly Bloom: A hundred million dollars.
[00:57:38] Jordan Harbinger: How did the mob get involved?
[00:57:40] Molly Bloom: Around Christmas, door opened and this guy that I'd never seen before pushed his way in, stuck a gun in my mouth, then he'd beat the hell out of me. And he kind of gave me this speech about how, "If I told anyone about this, or if I didn't comply, then they would take a trip to Colorado to see my family." Then the FEDs got involved. And the first thing they did was they took all my money. I moved back to LA. I'd gotten a pretty decent job. 10 days later, I got a call in the middle of the night, "This is agent so-and-so from the FBI. You need to come out with your hands up." I walked into my hallway when my eyes adjusted to the high-beam flashlights, I saw 17 FBI agents, semi-automatic weapons pointed at me.
[00:58:19] Jordan Harbinger: If you want to learn more about building rapport and generating the type of trust that Molly Bloom needed to run her multi-million dollar operation and hear about how it all came to an end, check out episode 120 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.
[00:58:35] All right, this is the end of part one. Don't forget part two, coming up in a few days. Links to Dr. Jack Schafer stuff will always be in the show notes. That means his books. Please use our website links if you buy books from any guest on the show. That does help support the show. Worksheets for the episode in the show notes. Transcripts in the show notes, and a video of this interview is going up on our YouTube at jordanharbinger.com/youtube. We've also got clips channel. Cuts that don't make it to the show. Highlights from the interviews you can't see anywhere else. jordanharbinger.com/clips, that's where you can find that. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on LinkedIn.
[00:59:08] I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using software, systems, tiny habits, the same ones that I use. That's our Six-Minute Networking course. It's free. jordanharbinger.com/course is where you can find it. Dig the well before you get thirsty. Most of the guests on the show, they subscribe to the course. Come join us, you'll be in smart company where you belong.
[00:59:26] This show has created an association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Millie Ocampo, Ian Baird, Josh Ballard, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. If you know anybody who's interested in persuasion, influence, developing rapport, especially for this set of episodes, recommend this one to them, share it with them. I hope you find something great in every episode of this show. Please share the show with those you care about. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.
Sign up to receive email updates
Enter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast.