965: Seeking Repentance for Unfair Life Sentence | Feedback Friday

965: Seeking Repentance for Unfair Life Sentence | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, a guy with whom I'm literally saying, "Hit me baby one more time." By the one and only, Britney Spears, in the North Korean karaoke bar, Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember that, Gabe?

[00:00:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Of course. How could I forget? Do you remember visiting Kim Jong-il's personal ostrich farm where they made us wear white lab coats for absolutely no reason?

[00:00:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. I was like, "This is not a sterile area. There's like ostrich poop everywhere. But okay, I've got a coat on."

[00:00:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like, what's the deal? What are we doing here?

[00:00:36] Jordan Harbinger: The real reason I remember that is because the tour guide for that farm said she rem— they make you go there every time, right? Because it's very important. And she said she remembered me because I was so handsome.

[00:00:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh.

[00:00:47] Jordan Harbinger: I'll literally never forget that. Whenever I'm having a bad day, I just remember that a 60-something-year-old North Korean ostrich farmer has a crush on me or had one, once upon a time.

[00:00:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Probably, still does. Not a lot of action in North Korea. I think she's no clinging to that memory, but I'm so happy you guys have that experience together.

[00:01:05] Jordan Harbinger: We will always have that. I just— yeah, you're right. The lab coats was weird.

[00:01:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Why did they make us wear lab coats at the ostrich farm? It was like we were visiting Genentech or something, but really it was just ostrich's. And then, on the way out, they tried to sell us ostrich leather wallets, which made me feel very sad about what we had just seen.

[00:01:23] Jordan Harbinger: Also, did you even know ostrich leather existed before that? I certainly didn't.

[00:01:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: No. But why would you take us on a tour of the ostrich farm and show us all these— I mean, they're not the nicest animals, but they're just doing what they— they don't know better.

[00:01:36] Jordan Harbinger: Do you remember standing on the ostrich egg? They're like, "Look, you can jump on it. Totally fine."

[00:01:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, I don't remember this at all.

[00:01:41] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Super hard eggs.

[00:01:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Great. So the super hard eggs in this crazy, difficult species to give birth to, and then they're like— and then we turn it into a thing you can put your insurance card in.

[00:01:52] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:01:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's like, "I don't want that."

[00:01:53] Jordan Harbinger: Nah. North Korea, man. None of it ever makes any sense, at all.

[00:01:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, it does not.

[00:01:58] Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, on The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the story, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

[00:02:08] Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks like mafia enforcers, arms dealers, money laundering experts, rocket scientists, generals, Fortune 500 CEOs or extreme athletes. This week, we had Charles Duhigg on Supercommunicators. These are the habits of some of the best communicators, persuaders in the business from CIA agents to business people. Really fascinating interview. This guy's awesome. He's a friend of mine. Just a really amazing thinker, writer, etc. You're going to love that episode. We also had Miles Johnson from the Financial Times on international intrigue, so drug cartels, arms trafficking. If you're into that whole thing, you're going to dig that episode with Miles Johnson as well. So a little bit of variety for you here this week. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, and occasionally reminisce about the hilarious and borderline reckless travels that Gabe and I have, once upon a time, done together.

[00:03:02] Before we kick off, Gabe.

[00:03:03] Crazy story that sort of, I don't know why ostrich eggs reminded me of this. But about eight years ago, I was getting a haircut in New York City. Because I was going to do some media or something and I was like, "Oh, I should get a haircut. I have time." So I run to this random barbershop on the west side.

[00:03:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:18] Jordan Harbinger: I'm in the chair and this guy's working away and I make a comment to him like, "Oh, you must be really into your job." Because he has this tattoo on his forearm of barber shears and I was like, "Oh, he's like really into cutting hair."

[00:03:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like scissors?

[00:03:30] Jordan Harbinger: No, like the electronic—

[00:03:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh.

[00:03:32] Jordan Harbinger: The electric shears. Like the sheep shears that you get when you get a close haircut.

[00:03:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: He got that tattooed on his—

[00:03:37] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:03:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay.

[00:03:38] Jordan Harbinger: I was like, Dude, this guy, this guy's really into cutting hair, for sure."

[00:03:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's committed. Yeah. What if you make a career change, and then you have to explain that for the rest of your life?

[00:03:46] Jordan Harbinger: Let's just say he wasn't making a career change. That's where this story is going.

[00:03:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay.

[00:03:50] Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, while he's cutting my hair, another barber at the barbershop is reading— I think the New York Times, and they're reading this newspaper story out loud, about a crime. The crime was a sexual assault in Central Park and he is reading it to my barber. And I was like, "Oh, that's so cool. Like your friend's reading you the newspaper, so you get to know the news." But what was weird is my barber was really into the facts of the story, like a little too into it. And I was like, "Why are you having him repeat stuff?"

[00:04:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, he is like, "So wait, say that again? How did they do—" Like that?

[00:04:19] Jordan Harbinger: He's like, "Oh, wait, wait, wait. What did they say the guy looked like? Like, where did this happen?" And I was just like, "Dude, it's just— is this not just one of many random stories you're being read today, as you cut hair?" I kid you not, just minutes later, the police bust in.

[00:04:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:33] Jordan Harbinger: And they're like, "Uh, you're under arrest." He's like, "I want to know what I'm under arrest for." And I'm like, "I want— I certainly want to know what you're under arrest for because you are just cutting my hair." They arrest him for that crime.

[00:04:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: No. No,

[00:04:46] Jordan Harbinger: Because I remember the female cop was like, "I don't think you want us to tell you why you're under arrest." he's like, "I want to know." And they're like, "Okay, you're under arrest for the sexual assault of a, literally, it was like a 72-year-old woman in Central Park." And he is like, "what?" And all the other barbers were like, "Oh man."

[00:05:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is so bizarre.

[00:05:03] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:05:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: This is the guy who was working on you.

[00:05:05] Jordan Harbinger: Right. This is— my barber, got arrested for rape while being read the story about said rape while he's cutting my hair.

[00:05:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is so insane. What a zany story. Okay. But so who finished your hair?

[00:05:18] Jordan Harbinger: So the guy reading the newspaper ends up finishing my haircut and I'm like, "Hey, I'm, you know, I'm sort of half here. I got the back trimmed nicely. The tops kinda long and weird. I can't go out like this. I look like James Altucher and I'm wearing a plastic smock." And—

[00:05:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: What do you mean? Because he has like that big like mop of hair?

[00:05:35] Jordan Harbinger: James Altucher, yeah. It wasn't quite, of course I don't have a big mop of curly hair, but I was just like the bottoms neck all trimmed up and the tops like, I'm like, "Why do you leave it like that?"

[00:05:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's long on the top. That's so funny. Okay,

[00:05:44] Jordan Harbinger: So, especially awkward, right? Is that guy just starts cutting my hair and he's just like, "Oh boy." And that was like all the comment he wanted to make on that. It wasn't like, "Well anyway, that happened." So I'm thinking, "What on earth is happening?" I go, "How long has that guy worked here?" And the other guy's like, "Eh, not long." Nobody basically knew this guy. And the new barber was like, "Oh man, he did that? Wow." And just kept working.

[00:06:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. I mean, yeah.

[00:06:08] Jordan Harbinger: And I'm thinking, "What and on earth, how are you not shook by this?" And here's the kicker: the reason the police found this guy, is the victim remembered that her assailant had a tattoo on his forearm of a barber shears.

[00:06:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow.

[00:06:22] Jordan Harbinger: And somehow, they triangulated that clue with a few other clues or whatever, and they tracked him through that barbershop. He'd probably been arrested for something else. And they're like identifying markers like barber shear, giant barber shear tattoo on right forearm.

[00:06:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh wow. What a weird story. Okay.

[00:06:36] Jordan Harbinger: So weird.

[00:06:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a really good one.

[00:06:37] Jordan Harbinger: And also creepy. Because you're like, "That guy's hands were like all over my head and stuff. Cutting me and he's just like a violent sexual offender."

[00:06:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't think you're his type.

[00:06:46] Jordan Harbinger: No, but still. It's like, that's why he was so interested in the story. He wanted to know what clues and evidence they had. Too little, too late, pal.

[00:06:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Very conspicuous too. Because you could have just read the article on your own instead of making such a thing out of it.

[00:06:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. "Hey Tim, go back a couple paragraphs and start over. I'm super interested in this rape story."

[00:07:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dark but amazing. Wow.

[00:07:06] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:07:06] All right. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mail bag?

[00:07:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear, Jordan and Gabe. One night, a friend of mine from high school, let's call him Liam, went to a concert with some friends. On the drive home, he fell asleep at the wheel. His car crossed lanes and ended up hitting another car, head on. Tragically, an older lady in the other car was killed, and several passengers in both cars, including Liam, were seriously injured.

[00:07:32] Jordan Harbinger: Ah man, that is so tragic. It's one of those nightmares you just pray never happens. And I'm very sorry this happened to your friend. And of course, I'm sorry these people were hurt and this woman died. I mean, it's just a heartbreaking story where everybody loses.

[00:07:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: After the accident, the parents of one of Liam's injured friends sued him. The judge ruled against Liam, and awarded the family $71 million in damages, supposedly the highest settlement in state history for that type of claim. Wow.

[00:08:00] Jordan Harbinger: No kidding. Wow. I actually wondered if this is really the true number when we first read this letter. That seems astronomical. Obviously, I understand that significant damages can be awarded after a tragedy like this but 71 million?

[00:08:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a lot.

[00:08:14] Jordan Harbinger: That's like wrongful death for large numbers of people. I just, I don't know how—

[00:08:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hefty,

[00:08:19] Jordan Harbinger: I don't know how you put a number on a person's life or an injury. It's such a heavy question. But this is a— it is a crippling amount of, well, no pun intended, truly. But that's a crazy high penalty for one person who was not killed.

[00:08:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: I do wonder how a judge or a jury puts a dollar amount on something like this. I mean, I know that this is what civil lawsuits are all about. I'm sure non-economic damages played a big role here, just based on the number.

[00:08:41] Jordan Harbinger: Well, there's pain and suffering, of course.

[00:08:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. That's where it gets big. Yeah.

[00:08:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's when the numbers can get big. But also this plaintiff, I'm guessing, since they did not die, and when you say seriously injured, this person probably needs a lifetime of professional care and can't work.

[00:08:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:08:55] Jordan Harbinger: So you have all the lost income, all the pain and suffering, but you also have $150,000 or more per year staff. And another couple hundred thousand for medical care over, if this guy was a teenager, the next, you know, 70 years of life or something.

[00:09:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:09:11] Jordan Harbinger: And they're like, "This is what it's going to cost." I mean, that adds up fast.

[00:09:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Still, 71 million, that just seems really high. But I don't know how you calculate that. But anyway, he goes on. The ruling also apparently stipulates that Liam can't claim bankruptcy and that the amount compounds annually. The plaintiffs now claim that Liam owes them $180 million. He says it should only be $120 million. These numbers, dude.

[00:09:37] Jordan Harbinger: Brutal. So he's never theoretically getting out from under this.

[00:09:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Nah, no light at the end of this tunnel, I'm afraid. So the letter goes on, my father recently ran into Liam and said that he wasn't looking as well as he used to. I assume his wages are being garnished to service the debt, but obviously he will never be able to repay that amount. I also assume that any outstanding debt would be passed on to his next of kin if he were to pass away. So even committing suicide doesn't seem like a solution. I understand that when a horrible event like this happens, the survivors seek justice and comfort, but this outcome seems outlandishly imbalanced. Liam's life must be at a standstill. It's hard to imagine pursuing his goals with this financial burden. If I were in his shoes, I don't know how I would find the strength or the hope to carry on. Is there any way forward for my friend? Does he have any hope of getting out of this debt? Should he flee the country? If he did, would he ever be able to come back and visit his family or would he be arrested at the airport? Would his family face any consequences if he left? And if he does leave the country, how should he feel about that ethically? Should he just ignore his guilt and running from the law? Signed, Watching My Friend Crumble As His Prospects Tumble Under the Weight Of This Massive Bundle.

[00:10:53] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, what a story. Like I said, a tragedy on multiple levels. On one hand— look, my heart obviously breaks for this woman who was killed and the friend who was injured. These are terrible wounds and they do seem to be the result of Liam's mistake. On the other hand, I also really empathize with a 20, 22, 25-year-old whose life is completely and utterly changed because of an accident, and whose future now looks very bleak, maybe even non-existent. So I understand why you're so concerned about your friend. Also, the other thing is, man, he fell asleep, which I know— look, that's part of his responsibility. But I've had long days at work back in the day and I was like, "Wow, I'm really tired. I might fall asleep on the road." It's one thing if you're wasted out of your mind and you cause an accident, falling asleep— it's somehow a little bit more forgivable and understandable of a mistake. Mistake nonetheless.

[00:11:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:11:43] Jordan Harbinger: But not quite the same level of culpability, in my opinion.

[00:11:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree with that.

[00:11:48] Jordan Harbinger: Look, I understand why you're so concerned about your friend. We wanted to run all of this by an expert. So we reached out to Erin Hoskins, a bankruptcy attorney and friend of the show. Before we dive into the options available to your friend, I just want to be very clear about something. We are not necessarily endorsing the idea that Liam should dodge this debt or that this judgment against him wasn't appropriate to some degree. We don't have all the evidence. We're not weighing in on the merits of the case. We're just going to answer your questions so that your friend has the information he needs to make the most informed choices about his future. It's interesting, Gabe. I find myself doing kind of a funny dance with this question. Maybe you feel the same.

[00:12:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:24] Jordan Harbinger: Where I understand why this victim or victims deserve justice. Obviously, I do. And if I were in their shoes or if I were their parents, I'd be trying to collect on this judgment too. If my mother were killed or my daughters paralyzed by somebody who fell asleep behind the wheel, I'd be heartbroken. I'd be super furious and angry. But then there's another part of me going, how do we get this poor guy out from under this debt so he can live a somewhat fulfilling life?

[00:12:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:12:48] Jordan Harbinger: And I'm somehow in touch with both, even though these two positions are obviously in conflict.

[00:12:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: I know what you mean. It's interesting to hold both of those ideas in your head at the same time. I do feel like we can empathize with everybody here. They were all changed that night. I think your allegiance just changes depending on whose point of view you're looking at.

[00:13:05] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And for this question, the POV we're looking at here is Liam's, okay? So let's get into it. The first thing Erin told us was, "No. Debts do not transfer to the next of kin if a judgment debtor, in this case, Liam, dies. Only people who sign for a debt like a co-debtor or a co-signer are liable for a judgment debt. Debt is not inherited." So you said you assumed that that it is. That is not correct. But if a decedent has any assets, any debts might be paid out of the assets of the estate before any property is inherited by the next of kin. Of course, and I think this goes without saying, Erin would not recommend suicide as a way to get out from under this judgment.

[00:13:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Can second that.

[00:13:44] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I think we are all in agreement here. The fact that that's even on the table is also to me, deeply sad. Again, it just speaks to how desperate somebody in Liam's shoes can become when they're like, "Oh, why don't I just kill myself? Because I'm never going to be able to pay this, anyways." But then, "Oh no, it's going to go to my parents and I'm just putting it off on them. We've sunk quite low."

[00:14:02] The other interesting thing Erin told us was that, she's never encountered a judgment that prohibits a defendant from filing bankruptcy. And I thought that was suspicious too when I saw this letter. And our research, fortunately, also seems to confirm that as well. Erin dug into this a little bit and she found an interesting case that might be relevant. Basically, the case stated that a state court cannot enjoin a person, in other words, prohibit them from filing bankruptcy. And the reason it can't do that is it violates something called the "Supremacy clause" of the US Constitution, which is essentially a provision that says, "Federal law takes precedence over state law." bankruptcy law is federal law. So determining who's allowed to file a bankruptcy petition or whether a bankruptcy case should be dismissed, that's under the jurisdiction of federal courts, not that of the state court where Liam's case played out. And I'm shocked, frankly, that the state judge didn't know that. That's really shows you that this judge possibly has her head way up her ass, his or her ass. So even if the judgment against Liam says that he can't file bankruptcy, that just might not actually be the case and probably isn't, in fact. So Erin's advice, which won't be a surprise, is that your friend should consult with a bankruptcy attorney. If he can get the judgment discharged in bankruptcy, that's the end of it. Now, Erin couldn't say for sure without knowing more, of course. But based on the facts you've shared, she did say that this debt appears to her to be something that could be discharged. But in her experience, it's not going to be as simple as filing for bankruptcy and it all goes bye bye. It's not going to be as simple as that because given the size of the judgment here, it's astronomical. She expects the judgment creditor, which is the party entitled to these damages, they're going to fight the bankruptcy pretty hard. They're probably going to try to have the debt determined non-dischargeable, meaning it would survive any bankruptcy. And she would definitely not recommend, that Liam try to file for bankruptcy without an attorney. Because if that battle's going to ensue, you need to be represented. Now, hiring a lawyer, that's obviously an expense, but there are attorneys out there who take pro bono cases or work on a sliding scale. And who knows? Maybe an attorney will be drawn to the facts in Liam's case, the historic nature of the decision, and they'll be uniquely invested in helping him out. That is definitely worth a shot. And Liam's parents are also there. I mean, maybe they can help him with this, otherwise his life is ruined. It's kind of, you know, a worthy investment. Now if it turns out that bankruptcy won't work for some reason, Erin shared a few clever strategies Liam could use. And I got to say, this is usually where dark Jordan comes out. Pitching crafty and vaguely dodgy ways to finesse a situation. And a couple dark Jordan ideas did occur to me here too. I'd call the following ideas, "Dark Erin pitches." But Erin is far from dark, and that would also besmirch her stellar reputation. And the very important legal disclaimer that we are going to include at the end of the episode.

[00:16:45] So Erin's first idea— Liam could change jobs, move his funds to a new bank, set up a new corporate entity like an LLC, open a bank account in that entity's name, and then, have his employer pay the entity, instead of him. This way, the creditor would've to figure out that he switched employers. It would also be more difficult to find the bank account and him, and that could prevent future garnishments. Although, if the judgment creditor ever does find the funds or Liam pays for his personal expenses out of the new account, they still might successfully garnish his wages. Erin said another way to hide these funds is to put them in a spouse's name or in another relative or a friend's name. Obviously, this requires a certain amount of trust in the other person. That person is literally in charge of your money, and if it's in their name, they could spend it. They could mismanage it. They could run away with it. So Liam would need this to be somebody very solid. But then, Erin said that most states have ways to reach funds that are transferred to keep them away from a creditor. Still, it would make collection more difficult. Just know that if Liam ever files bankruptcy, there are ways to claw back any transferred funds. You can see this with the Alex Jones trial, right? He's claiming he is broke and he's basically giving all this money to his family and friends and yada yada. So again, Erin advises trying to go the bankruptcy route first. Erin also pointed us to another interesting wrinkle here in the law, which is that some states have what's called Entireties Law for married people. Entireties Law basically provide that any marital property cannot be garnished or collected to pay the debts of only one spouse. So if Liam lives in one of those states, and you guys should google this. It's possible that the creditor cannot tap into joint checking accounts or other merged assets that are co-owned by Liam and a spouse in order to collect their money. Now, it doesn't sound like Liam's married, but if he is or if he ever does tie the knot one day, that could really come in handy. Although Erin did say, this still would not help with wage garnishment specifically.

[00:18:37] Now, about your idea for Liam to flee a country, move abroad. This was actually my big dark Jordan pitch, surprise, surprise. My first thought when I read your letter was, "Hey, book a one-way ticket to Costa Rica or Vietnam or Portugal, wherever you can get wifi and a work permit and just start a new life." And actually, Erin said that that wasn't the worst idea. Which is lawyer speak for, "I can't tell you to do this, but I'm also not, not telling you to do it." If Liam did move abroad, the judgment creditor would first have to find him, which could be hard to do. Then they'd have to figure out how the laws in that country work for purposes of trying to collect. Also, Erin said that before they can collect on a judgment in a new jurisdiction, the creditor would need to domesticate the judgment first. In other words, they'd have to go through a process for getting the new jurisdiction to recognize the judgment. Plus, foreign banks and employers. Eh, they might not be as cooperative with garnishments as banks here in the United States. So good luck getting fricking Danske Bank in Estonia or whatever. To deduct 1800 bucks a month from his paycheck. That's going into a brand new checking account. A totally different language and protocol. I could see that going into a black hole of bureaucracy or just not being entertained at all, depending on local law. Erin's idea— do some research on countries that are less receptive to a US creditor, but the reality is any foreign country would complicate the collection process. Also, Liam might not even need to move to another country. Erin said, even moving to a different state could give Liam some reprieve. Especially if he combined that move with a change of jobs and a new bank and any of the other strategies we've been talking about. At least of course, until the creditor found out where he moved to, domesticated the judgment and then set up the garnishment again, which in his case, they're probably going to be quite motivated to do. And no, Erin said there's no risk of being arrested or whatever if Liam ever came back and visited his family because dodging payment on a debt is not a crime, which actually is kind of surprising. Judgment creditors are limited to civil remedies in trying to collect through liens and garnishments. They can't just have you arrested. They can only take some of your stuff, and that's only after due process, like a bunch of— that's only after a court orders and stuff like that. The only risk he'd be taking in coming back would be if there's another lawsuit filed against him. Then they could serve him while he's present in the jurisdiction in which they filed the lawsuit. And hey, as long as none of his family is included as a defendant in the judgment, they're not going to face any consequences if he leaves the country. Again, they are not liable for his debt in any way. The only caveat is if Liam transfers money or property to them, then the judgment creditor could sue them for the return of that money or property. They can't turn around and sue his parents for the whole judgment. You know, if he gives him 10 grand, they could sue him for the 10 grand that he transferred to them. That's it.

[00:21:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Now, about how Liam should feel ethically about moving abroad to dodge this debt, I think that's ultimately up to Liam. I mean, everybody's moral compass is different. But also, and this goes back to Jordan's point about making room for a number of perspectives here. It's a really interesting question. How much should Liam live the rest of his life to service this crushing debt for a mistake? And a relatively innocent mistake at that, that he made when he was very young. And how much should he live now to carve out the best possible life given the circumstances? I honestly don't know the answer to that. I think there are some very good reasons to do both from an ethical standpoint, from just a practical standpoint. Also, kind of from an existential standpoint. I mean, you could honestly argue both sides of that till the cows come home.

[00:22:00] Jordan Harbinger: For sure. Hey, also, so many people in this world are what's called "Judgment proof" Meaning, you're never going to get the money they owe you because they don't have any. It's like suing a broke person, getting blood from a stone, whatever. I personally— I've got a few guys who owe me five, even six figures. I am never going to go after them because they live in— one guy lives in his car. So when a karmic sense — I guess that was a weird pun. Didn't mean to do that. I've won, but in a practical sense, I'm never going to see a penny of that money. But also like, "Okay, you're basically a homeless guy now, so screw you. I think I came out on top. Enjoy the money you wasted on whatever."

[00:22:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sorry, I don't mean to step on your very interesting point but Karmic and car?

[00:22:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:22:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Is that what you were—

[00:22:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

[00:22:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is actually kind of the greatest pun you've ever made.

[00:22:43] Jordan Harbinger: It might've been. Of course, it was an accident.

[00:22:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Two in one letter. What was the other one? Oh, crippling debt.

[00:22:47] Jordan Harbinger: Basically, I'm just really good at insensitive puns that don't actually—

[00:22:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: That tracks. That's very much part of your brand.

[00:22:54] Jordan Harbinger: It is, it is.

[00:22:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: You should get that tattooed on your forearm. Just throwing that out there.

[00:22:57] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But then, you know what? I'd get identified real quick, if I ever commit a violent crime.

[00:23:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: If you ever owe somebody $71 million. That's right.

[00:23:04] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. So it's also an interesting question whether somebody who, let's just say refuses to get a job or who has a job, but they spend all their money, or who does clever stuff to hide their assets. Whether a person like that is less ethical than somebody who moves abroad to avoid a debt. I mean, I think that's certainly the case if you say, "Owe a company money or you owe your family money or something like that." But man, when this court awarded the plaintiff $71,000,000 with compounding annual interest. The plaintiff must have known that the likelihood of collecting on that number from a whatever 20-year-old kid or whatever, how old he was, was nil.

[00:23:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Low.

[00:23:38] Jordan Harbinger: Virtually impossible.

[00:23:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:23:39] Jordan Harbinger: They might be going, "Okay, well if we get 400 grand out of this guy over the course of his life, we'll be lucky." Unless Liam or his family happened to be extremely wealthy. But even then, unless the family were defendants in the lawsuit, it can't go after the family anyway.

[00:23:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: So your point is, is moving abroad really as dodgy as it seems when you look at this more practically?

[00:23:58] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly.

[00:23:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Does he need to feel as guilty if he's not really running away from $180,000,000 but just from the tiny portion of that, that he might have paid over the course of his life? Yeah, it's an interesting point. All I can say is no, I don't think he should ignore his guilt. The guilt will probably always be there to some degree after a tragedy like this, unfortunately. But you might want to encourage Liam to ask himself where that guilt is actually coming from at this point. Is it about the accident itself? Is it about dodging this debt? Or is it about making some moves now to prioritize himself? Whether that is morally right or wrong. After only living to service this obligation for so long.

[00:24:38] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's a great question. And like you said, that's really up to him to work through. But I agree that his relationship with his guilt, how he factors it into his decision making, that might be more flexible than he thinks. That could change. So time for Liam to talk to an attorney. That's move number one. Erin said that even if they don't recommend filing bankruptcy, they can advise Liam on whether to move his funds, dodge garnishments, potentially move abroad, all that. Yes, a bankruptcy attorney can advise you on that stuff. And again, man, I am so very sorry that this happened to your friend and that these other people were impacted by his mistake. It's a tragedy that is difficult to wrap your head around. And I can't blame these people for holding him accountable, but I also can't blame him for wanting to live a halfway decent life and move on, somehow, from this, financially. And oh, look, I understand why the other party is mad, but now another person's life is ruined. And to what end? To what end? The dude's probably thinking about killing himself to get away from a debt that he'll never be able to pay. So it's like, what are we doing here? So yes, explore these clever strategies. Maybe some of them will help. But more importantly, man, I hope Liam finds the support that he needs— legal, psychological, spiritual, to make sense of what's happening here and to live the most meaningful life possible. The money's a huge thing, no doubt about it. But it's probably nothing compared to the emotional burden that he's going through and shouldering with this as well. And that's the part that I really hope he finds a way to cope with and make sense of. Because that's what's going to get him through. And I'm wishing both of you the best. Good luck.

[00:26:07] You know what else will compound over the course of your life? Your love for the amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:26:16] This episode is sponsored in part by BetterHelp. If by some wizardry, I scored an extra hour each day, I'd spend more time doing some voiceovers. It's a new hobby. Not new. It's a hobby I'm focusing on more this year, and it makes a little bit of money if you get a job. With more time at our disposal, what would we genuinely dive into? Discovering what sparks joy and carving out space for that. It's like unlocking the ultimate life hack. Therapy could be your secret weapon to discovering what gets your heart racing, enabling you to cherish the moments that matter. So it's not about facing off against your inner demons. It's all about mastering life enhancing strategies. Drawing clear lines in the sand, evolving into the hero of your own story. Considering pressing play on therapy? BetterHelp could be the sidekick you've been searching for. Completely online. It slips into your schedule as seamlessly as your favorite game. Offering flexibility that's unbeatable. A simple quiz connects you with a licensed therapist, and if it's not a match, switching is as simple as hitting the restart button.

[00:27:05] Jen Harbinger: Learn to make time for what makes you happy with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/jordan today to get 10 percent off your first month. That's betterH-E-L-P.com/jordan.

[00:27:15] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Constant Contact. Let's be real. The mere thought of diving into digital marketing makes me sweat more than a workout session. I don't like it. It's boring. That's why I love Constant Contact, especially for us small business folks. Think of it not just as your email and SMS sidekick and in a way, it's a social media guru event planning wizard all rolled into one. With Constant Contact slick writing help and automation magic, it'd make sure your marketing hits home every single time. And get this, Constant Contact is a 97 percent chance of making sure your message lands in inboxes, not lost in the digital void. It's like having a VIP ticket to your audience's attention. Stuck on something? Their live customer support is like having a marketing guru on speed dial, ready to bail you out. Plus, they have a 30-day money-back guarantee, so try 'em out for streamlining your marketing. They've helped millions of small businesses see big results and fast.

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[00:28:27] Now, back to Feedback Friday.

[00:28:31] Okay, what's next?

[00:28:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 27 and I just got engaged to my boyfriend of six years. We are so excited to be getting married and have just started the wedding planning process. Very cool. Congratulations. Two years ago, my brother, who was born a girl, informed the family that he would be transitioning to become a man. He lives across the country and he's not always been the best at communicating with us. Apparently, he had been living as a man for over a year when he decided to start taking testosterone and schedule his top surgery. I was so happy for him. My brother was always a tomboy growing up and it made so much sense to me when he said it out loud. But the majority of my family is fairly conservative. To this day, they still misgender him, and my grandmother cut off communication with him entirely, saying, "I don't want to know the person who stole my little girl away from me."

[00:29:24] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, man, that is really sad. We hear stories like this a decent amount. It's got to be so painful.

[00:29:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: When I announced my engagement, my brother immediately texted to congratulate me. He also said that he might need a plus two as he's now in a poly relationship with his husband and another person.

[00:29:41] Jordan Harbinger: I love it. Did you say plus two? That's hilarious.

[00:29:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Plus two.

[00:29:43] Jordan Harbinger: I'm actually going to need more than a plus one.

[00:29:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know what's funny? I actually used the term plus two in a movie that I wrote. There's a character who's in a throuple and he wants to come to the main character's wedding and there's a scene where he's like, "Yo, can I get a plus two?" And I was pretty proud of myself for that one because I thought I made it up. But apparently, that is a real thing.

[00:30:01] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, who knew? It's such a Gen Z request. "Hey, can I get a plus two for my husband and my secondary long-term relationship?

[00:30:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly. Her brother's rolling up to the wedding with a damn posse, at this point.

[00:30:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, seriously. Sorry, we're not making fun of the guy. It's just a funny request. What a time to be alive, right?

[00:30:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: I told him, of course he was invited and I could definitely accommodate an extra guest.

[00:30:21] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, that's nice of you. I might've been like, "Hey, you get one bro. This b*tch is a thousand dollars a plate. Pick your favorite one. Pick your favorite partner and deal with the consequences on your own."

[00:30:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: What a hip, modern wedding this is turning out to be.

[00:30:33] Jordan Harbinger: That's one word for it. I'm just trying to imagine how these introductions are going to go, though. Because of course that's got to, you know, "Oh, hi mom. This is my husband and this is my boyfriend."

[00:30:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep. I think we're about to get into that. So the letter goes on.

[00:30:43] Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

[00:30:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: But this brought up another thought. Do I have to have my grandmother at my wedding and then have my brother at the reception only? Because poly brother, husband and more is going to cause a lot of drama with my family.

[00:30:56] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I bet. They're not on board with him being trans, I doubt they're going to be on board with him being in a Polycule.

[00:31:04] Jordan Harbinger: What's a Polycule? Dude, you're killing me with these polyamory terms. I can't even keep up. I need like an urban dictionary for this.

[00:31:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: I did some reading before we recorded. I don't know if you can tell. I got to get up on the lingo for this letter. By the way, Jordan. You're my comet partner, professionally speaking. Of course.

[00:31:19] Jordan Harbinger: What is that? What's a comet partner?

[00:31:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a long distance relationship where the partners only meet in person every now and again. You know, like a comet. It comes around every so often.

[00:31:28] Jordan Harbinger: I see.

[00:31:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: But they're happy to pick up their special connection and be intensely in touch in between.

[00:31:34] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man. We are comic co-hosts for show.

[00:31:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: We might also be in a Polycule with Corbin Payne and Dr. Erin Margolis. But I don't want to make things weird.

[00:31:43] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, yeah. Nothing weird about a fourple. It's too late for that. No, you're right. We're pretty polyamorous with our subject matter experts and I like to think it's all on the up and up, but anyway.

[00:31:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: It is, yeah. Everyone's needs are getting met.

[00:31:54] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Anyway, look, I don't see grandma being super cool with her grandson, who used to be a little girl or a woman rolling up to the wedding with his two male partners. I think that's just going to be one awkward family photo. And I don't know how we're going to get there.

[00:32:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Just imagine the speeches. I don't even— like, "And now, the bride's brother would like to say a few words." And then, just as he walks up to the microphone, grandma yells from table seven, "You mean the bride sister?"

[00:32:18] Jordan Harbinger: No joke. Like, "That's not the best man. It's the best woman." As grandma scream cries from over table seven.

[00:32:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh man. So she— so we're stressing our friend out here so bad. She's like, "Is this really what my wedding is going to be like?" Maybe not.

[00:32:31] Jordan Harbinger: I know.

[00:32:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's funny to imagine. So she goes on, and then there's my mom. She's refused to accept that my brother is a man. She has pictures all around her house of him when he was a young woman. Calls him "she". Sends him Bible verses about changing his mind. And so—

[00:32:47] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God.

[00:32:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: I've tried to tell her that he's so much happier now, but she doesn't care.

[00:32:53] Jordan Harbinger: That is the key. And I'm not going to go down that road, really. But that is the key. She doesn't care. Her comfort? Way more important than her son being comfortable, which I think is a shame. Again, that's got to be really hard for your brother. I know we're having a laugh just now about the wedding, but obviously this is something many trans people have to go through. It's very painful. And I got to say, for me, as a parent, dude, I just want my kids to be happy. Of course, I wouldn't wish for my kids to have to make difficult life choices like this, you know? That I'm sure that that's not easy for anyone, especially the person who decides that they're the wrong gender. "They're having the hardest time with this mom, okay?" But the last thing that I do is make them feel like sh*t about it or feel unloved, if this is what they feel is right for them. Like, what are you doing? You are a parent. You are failing in your most basic obligation as a parent. Remember what I said I wasn't going to go down that road?

[00:33:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's okay. No, you're making a good point.

[00:33:44] Jordan Harbinger: Anyway, Gabe, carry on. I think everybody gets me on this one.

[00:33:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm worried that I'm going to have to keep going to bat for my brother at my wedding, insisting that the family respect his pronouns and his relationship, when all I really want to be doing is marrying the love of my life and starting a new chapter. I want my brother to be part of this momentous day, but how can I do that with all of the friction in this family? Signed, Looking For a Clue To Handle This Unused Plus Two Without Getting Booed, Getting Screwed, or Making Things Boku Cuckoo On the Day I'm Wearing Something Blue.

[00:34:17] Jordan Harbinger: Sheesh.

[00:34:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: I want to hear anything you about the length of that signoff. It just tumbled out.

[00:34:26] Jordan Harbinger: You read my mind because the first thing I was going to say was, "Wow. I thought last week, you had long ones, and this one just takes the wedding cake."

[00:34:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Why is it never, "Well done"? Why is it always, "Too much"?

[00:34:36] Jordan Harbinger: Oh. Also, well done. So good. So good. Really.

[00:34:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Thank you.

[00:34:39] Jordan Harbinger: Really amazing. Anyway, this is an interesting question and a tough one. Because look, the reality is either way, you are inviting friction. And I know that that's unfair to you. It is. I acknowledge that. If you tell your brother not to invite his other partner, his secondary, if I have the lingo right. That's going to cause friction with both of them. If you invite your brother and his husband and their secondary, which is apparently what you've already done, that's probably going to cause friction within your family, even if it's unfair.

[00:35:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Although, unclear how much, right? I mean, if they're all getting down on the dance floor and they're holding hands by the open bar, yeah, that's going to raise some eyebrows. But if they're just chilling and the brother doesn't go around telling everybody at the wedding who "Dave" is and why he's randomly there for the first time, they've never met this person. Maybe they can just pass him off as a friend of the family or something, some other person, right?

[00:35:26] Jordan Harbinger: Right. But still, I'm sure people are going to wonder who this new guy that they've literally never seen before, is at a wedding. Someone's going to have to explain why "Dave" keeps going into the photo booth with your brother and his husband.

[00:35:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, our friend could always say that "Dave" is a friend of hers.

[00:35:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, true. Depends on how handsy he and the brother are.

[00:35:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And then why is he sitting at the family table, right?

[00:35:46] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:35:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Or can she seat him at that table? You know that one table where they put all the random single people? Maybe that's where you put 'em.

[00:35:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And they're like, "Hopefully, they click." Yeah. I mean she could, but then "Dave" might be kind of insulted like, "I'm not single. I'm dating your brother and his husband." Or who knows.

[00:35:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. I'm in the Polycule.

[00:36:00] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm in the Poylycule. Maybe he'll be understanding. I'm sure he's no stranger to judgey families being poly himself.

[00:36:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Maybe he'll take one for the team.

[00:36:08] Jordan Harbinger: So my feeling is you have to decide which friction you can live with. Welcome to wedding planning. Isn't it so fun? Clearly, some people in your family— mama Bible verses and Grandma, you stole my baby, maybe others. They just aren't on board with your brother's identity. But you're not going to change their minds. Not before the wedding, anyway. Possibly, never. Although, I do hold out some hope that they can at least come to accept that he's happier, even if they vehemently disagree with everything else. You've already invited your brother and his partners, so you've picked a side. Now you got to make peace with the resulting drama or try to minimize it. And the way that I would do that is I would go to your mom, your grandma, anyone else in the family who has an issue with your brother, and I'd say, "Hey, look, I know you don't approve of Ryan's choice. I understand. It's difficult for you. But I want him and his husband at the wedding, so I've invited them. I know that might be hard for you, but I'm respectfully asking you to put all of these feelings and questions and all that stuff aside before my big day. Because I want to be able to enjoy my wedding and not stress about how everybody feels about Ryan today. After the wedding, sure, we can talk about it. But on the day, I am asking you to be kind, to be diplomatic, to be respectful for my sake. If that means you don't talk to Ryan or his partner at the wedding, okay. If it means you guys gossip about them afterwards, fine. But I do not want any unnecessary stress at my wedding. That is really important to me. Can you do me that favor? Can you help me have the most fun and peaceful wedding possible? Thank you. I really appreciate it." I mean, something like that. If you frame it as, "This is what I need as the bride to ensure my wedding goes smoothly." I think that is your best bet.

[00:37:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. You're not asking them to change. You're just asking them to play nice for a day, for your sake, which they're probably way more likely to do.

[00:37:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:37:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: And if they do, then I don't think you need to have your grandmother only at the ceremony and then have your brother only at the reception. I mean, it's an option if you want do that. And if your grandmother seems intent on causing a scene, then maybe that's the move. But I would try Jordan's approach first. I think that's a wonderful script. And maybe don't seat your brother and your grandma at the same table. That seems like one easy way to sidestep some drums. It'll also probably make the wedding way more enjoyable for your brother. But you can also ask him, "Hey, where do you want to sit? Where would you feel most comfortable?" And then do that.

[00:38:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I think that's a good call. Another idea is steal grandma's glasses before the ceremony so she doesn't know who anyone is.

[00:38:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Nice. Nice dark Jordan pitch there, but also very zany.

[00:38:33] Jordan Harbinger: I do have some more.

[00:38:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Please. Let's hear 'em. I would love to hear more dark jordan. What do you got?

[00:38:37] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, get grandma so liquored up at the reception, she can't even tell who anyone is.

[00:38:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah. I like that one. I don't know what her lifestyle is like, if she's a big drinker. But she might also have more fun that way, too.

[00:38:48] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Everyone wins. Although, she might also be like, "I am going to march up there right in the beginning and give a speech."

[00:38:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right.

[00:38:54] Jordan Harbinger: Right? Because she's had three glasses of wine.

[00:38:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yes. Sloppy, disinhibited grandma up on the mic? That could be— it could go either way. I have a dark Gabe pitch. Put Dave in a tuxedo and make him carry around a tray all night. So everybody just thinks he's part of the catering stuff, but really, he's just hanging out.

[00:39:11] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, nice one. Kind of avoidant, very difficult to pull off logistically, but a plus for creativity.

[00:39:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Thank you.

[00:39:17] Jordan Harbinger: Mine were pretty basic compared to that one. Here's one— Dave and his partner put on a trench coat and Dave stands on his shoulders, Little Rascal Style.

[00:39:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: But then he is going to be so tall, he is going to stand out, right?

[00:39:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So that's not going to work. Yeah. Some of our ideas are better than others, I'm thinking. Anyway, I'm sorry your family isn't supportive of your brother. Like I said, it's a sad situation and there's no easy solution, but you can't fix your family dynamics on your own. All you can do is be kind to your brother and ask your family to be on their best behavior so that you can have the day that you want, which is your right, as the bride. And hey, you might not succeed a hundred percent. Your grandma might make a snide comment over the shrimp cocktail. Your mom might drop a Bible verse, that's definitely about him into her toast that's supposed to be about you. You can't control every aspect of your wedding, but you can control your response to that stuff. So if anything crazy goes down, just take a deep breath. Let it roll off your back. Remind yourself to enjoy your wedding anyway. You can't let these people infect your whole day. And after it's over, you'll probably remember the good parts more than any of the bad ones. And hey, congrats on getting engaged. Have fun at the wedding, and good luck with that seating chart. It sounds more complicated than most of Gabe's sign-offs.

[00:40:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's absolutely true.

[00:40:30] Jordan Harbinger: I got to say, Gabe. It is unfair for people to bring their personal beliefs to weddings if they are not the bride and groom.

[00:40:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:40:37] Jordan Harbinger: Even the parents of the bride and groom. It's like, this is not your— Yes, the party's kind of, you know that whole thing like, "The wedding is for the bride's mom." Or whatever. Okay. That's partially true, but that just means you get to really enjoy the day. It doesn't mean that you get to use this as a platform to talk about why you're disappointed in your son.

[00:40:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:56] Jordan Harbinger: That is so wildly inappropriate. This is not the place for that, people.

[00:41:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Not the venue. Leave it at home.

[00:41:01] Jordan Harbinger: No.

[00:41:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Just enjoy.

[00:41:03] Jordan Harbinger: Absolutely not the place for that. It's really kind of sad. My wedding was hilarious because I didn't really invite that many people, as you might recall. Like I didn't invite like my college roommates or like all these people that I grew up with. I invited people who didn't really have to fly to get there. And of course, other family. But most of my family stayed in Michigan. We had another reception. But we invited some really fun local friends. And one of my buddies, his wife, they have four kids and she's very like a serious person. She doesn't get to go out too much because she has four kids.

[00:41:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:37] Jordan Harbinger: I think they have five now. She got absolutely trashed at the wedding. And I'm sure it was kind of an accident, right? She was just like— the food was really late coming out. She never gets out, and she was absolutely hammered. Not sloppy hammered where you're like picking her up off the floor. But we had sparklers at the end, you remember those?

[00:41:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, yeah.

[00:41:55] Jordan Harbinger: And we were going to do this thing where we'd walk through the tunnel of sparklers and take photos.

[00:41:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't remember the super drunk person, but Yeah. What happened there?

[00:42:01] Jordan Harbinger: Well, she grabs sparklers and she's like running around barefoot at the country club. And again, she's like a lawyer, okay. It was dead serious all the time. And she's running, and she's got this sparklers, and my friend, they had brought their baby. And she's like, "Jordan, sparklers plus baby." And my friends were like, "Is a terrible idea." This is Caleb. It's like, this is a terrible idea.

[00:42:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh my God.

[00:42:24] Jordan Harbinger: And she's like, "No." So she's like around the baby, like doing what the sparklers and they're like running away from her with this.

[00:42:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh wow. She had a good time.

[00:42:32] Jordan Harbinger: It was just— she had a great time. But it was so funny. Because if you— the juxtaposition between who this woman is during the day, a lawyer and a serious mom, and then, her with like, "Yeah baby and sparklers." She's like doing cartwheels on the grass.

[00:42:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: It sounds like she needed it. Your wedding was probably the most lit event she had been to in years. Probably, still since that day.

[00:42:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Literally with the sparklers.

[00:42:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Another good pun.

[00:42:55] Jordan Harbinger: I know. My point is weddings are hilarious and they're worth every penny in many ways because you have all these memories and they're hilarious. And even if drama does happen, you're hopefully going to be able to look back and be like, "That was the time grandma threw her teeth at Ryan."

[00:43:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:43:09] Jordan Harbinger: "Oh my God, I forgot about that." Like, just try and enjoy and put humor behind any sort of negativity, if any actually happens.

[00:43:17] Anyway, you can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a lot easier. If your tax evading husband is hiding guns in the wall, your sister slept with your boyfriend before you met, or your friend tragically killed her baby during a psychotic episode. That was absolutely heartbreaking last week, Gabe. I can't stop thinking about that story. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:43:44] Okay, what's next?

[00:43:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I've been living in a two bedroom apartment with a roommate for about eight months now. We were friends during childhood, but lost contact during our teen years and through college. Then we reconnected when we were both looking to move and it worked out. When we moved in together, he asked if his girlfriend could stay over a few nights a week. I had no problem with this, so I agreed. But now, she essentially lives here. In fact, she's here more than I am and she doesn't pay any of the rent. I have a solid job and hobbies, friends and social obligations that keep me very busy and away from the apartment, most of the time. My roommate has always been very messy and disorganized, so it's no surprise that he's the same now. I do all of the cleaning, restocking, and other upkeep. Meanwhile, they generally sit in his room and watch TV most of the time. His girlfriend is also rude to me and unpleasant to be around, which is frustrating considering that this isn't her apartment. My roommate also hasn't had a stable job or car for most of the time we've been living together. His girlfriend drives him everywhere, which is why she's here so much. She doesn't have a stable job either. None of this would be as big of an issue for me if they were ambitious, looking for a stable job, furthering their education and being respectful of me and the space that we share. Coming back to the apartment always stresses me out as they are always there and I never know what I'm walking into.

[00:45:11] The problem is my roommate has just been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and it's causing him to have limited feeling and strength in his hands among other health issues. His mom has a MS too. Then, a week or two after getting diagnosed, the restaurant he worked out was sold, leaving him jobless and carless. I'm at my wit's end with him and his girlfriend, but I also genuinely feel bad for him. How do I go about navigating this conversation with my roommate without piling on? How do I tell him to either find a new place with his girlfriend, move back home, or get his act together and contribute more? Signed, Trying To Be Compassionate But Expecting More From My Cohabitants When He's Being Pretty Intransigent About Restocking the Frigging Cabinets.

[00:45:54] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. This was shaping up to be a pretty typical, "My roommate sucks. How do I tell him to stop being such an a-h*le or kick rocks?" story.

[00:46:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep.

[00:46:00] Jordan Harbinger: Until the big MS reveal. And that definitely complicates matters. It raises the stakes on all this. And honestly, my heart does go out to this guy because getting an MS diagnosis on top of having a parent with MS, that's a very intense piece of news to receive and it's got to be pretty scary and painful physically and emotionally, and I'm sure this guy is really going through it. In fact, him cocooning with his girlfriend, not leaving the house a lot, avoiding responsibility. That might just speak to how overwhelming this diagnosis really is for him.

[00:46:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. I mean, it's very sad. But to be fair, he was doing all of that before he found out he had MS so, I don't know.

[00:46:39] Jordan Harbinger: Well, that's right. He can't blame all of this on his health problems. Look, I've got a buddy with MS and he's like in the c-suite at Amazon, so, okay.

[00:46:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh wow.

[00:46:48] Jordan Harbinger: This guy was struggling to take care of himself and be a thoughtful roommate before he found out, so he can't pin it all on this news. But finding out you have a life-altering disease, that's a tough piece of news for somebody who's already maybe not the most ambitious or proactive or equipped.

[00:47:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:47:04] Jordan Harbinger: So first of all, I totally get why this situation is frustrating you. All this would drive me up the dang wall, too. You moved in with one guy, he doesn't pitch in or pull his weight. Suddenly, you got two roommates. They're constantly there. They don't seem to do much. They're not really taking care of themselves. His girlfriend is actually rude to you when you're being pretty damn cool, which tracks totally, by the way. They just sound awful.

[00:47:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's the part of the letter that just gets me so angry. The messiness thing, the not pitching in thing. Ah, this stuff makes my blood boil. I don't like it.

[00:47:34] Jordan Harbinger: It reminds me of that story that we took, I think last year? There was a guy who threw a bachelor party for his friend, and one of the other guys just like never paid for anything and was like, "I'm broke." And then it was like, "Oh, and also I'm not going to clean up your stuff." When everybody else is cleaning, he's just watching tv. It's like, "What is wrong with you? Who raised your dumb ass? Have you no shame?"

[00:47:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Some people are raised by wolves. And it shocks me all the time, but it shouldn't anymore.

[00:47:59] Jordan Harbinger: It really is shocking. And if you're not like that, you just can't live with these people. It's gross, first of all. It's stressful, it's unfair. They're taking advantage of you and they're just oblivious. I get why our friend is at his wit's end. How long do you wipe down the counter every day and restock the fricking Windex and toilet paper while you're lazy ass roommate and his rude girlfriend watch their sixth hour of Vanderpump Rules before you blow a gasket, man? It's untenable.

[00:48:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: He's got to get out. It's time.

[00:48:24] Jordan Harbinger: I agree. But then, he genuinely feels bad for this guy, which I also understand.

[00:48:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. But the two are compatible. He can feel empathy for this guy, and he can also say, "I'm really sorry man. I know you're going through a lot right now, but this arrangement isn't exactly what we agreed on many levels, so we got to talk."

[00:48:40] Jordan Harbinger: True. He doesn't need to be a dick about it, but he does need to protect himself. So, here's how I do that. Sit down with your roommate or take him out to coffee if his girlfriend's always around. I'm thinking you don't want to do this in front of her because she's just going to step in and blast her loud mouth about the whole thing. And basically, tell him, "Listen man, I know you got this big piece of news. I'm so sorry you're going through it. I can only imagine how intense that must be. And I'm also very sorry about the timing of this because I know you're going through a lot, but we got to talk about our living situation. When we moved in together, I thought, you know, this is going to be you and me. I thought we'd pitch in equally. As you know, I was very accommodating when you asked if Chloe could stay over a few nights a week. I felt that's fair game. But now, she lives here. She's at the apartment more than I am, and you and I are still splitting the rent and doesn't really feel entirely fair, especially since I put in most of the work to keep the apartment running. We also just have very different standards for our home, and we have totally different lifestyles, which is fine, but it does make our roommate situation a lot harder. And truth be told, I'm finding it super stressful. I don't really feel like this is our apartment anymore. I've gotten some weird vibes from Chloe, which is extra weird because we're doing her a big favor by having her over so often and it's gotten to the point where something's got to change. So I just wanted to talk to you about it. Does this make sense? Are you happy with our living situation? Is there a world where you could keep things a little neater and contribute a little bit more? Is that hard to do with your symptoms?" And then you guys have to talk about it. And if he's like, "Honestly, no. I'm really happy. You're good at the housekeeping stuff and I'm good at watching tv." Then yeah, it's time to part ways because he's taking advantage of you. And then, you can talk about options. Moving out or encouraging him to move out or move back home. But if he's open to changing, hey, maybe you guys hit the reset button and try again for a few months and see how it goes. But I will say, it's very unlikely. He's going to be like, "Chloe, you can't come over as much."

[00:50:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: I was going to say—

[00:50:34] Jordan Harbinger: That's a tell.

[00:50:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't have high hopes for this guy changing, unfortunately.

[00:50:39] Jordan Harbinger: No, me neither. I would have low hopes for this guy changing before he had a diagnosis. But now, he's got to fight that and this. The fact that the guy was already kind of a lazy POS to begin with.

[00:50:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: But also, this isn't just, you know, "I don't like how you love the dishwasher, I like it my way." This is, "I want to live in a decent place that feels like mine and yours, and you want to live with your nightmare of a girlfriend in Joe Exotics Wild Animal Park or whatever." And that's just— I don't know how you cross that bridge.

[00:51:09] Jordan Harbinger: How this girl could even feel comfortable spending this much time at their house without either offering to pay rent or being super kind and respectful. I can't wrap my head around it.

[00:51:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Raised by wolves, I'm telling you. These people, I can't.

[00:51:22] Jordan Harbinger: It's just so weird to me that people can enjoy themselves when they're not being decent human beings in these very basic ways.

[00:51:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: But that's the issue. Because we're not just talking about stocking the cabinets and logistics or lifestyles. We're talking about values. And those values existed before his roommate found out he had MS. And it doesn't seem like they're going to change after getting this piece of news to your point, either.

[00:51:42] Jordan Harbinger: Right. I got to say, I'm also pretty worried about this roommate. If you have MS and you're already experiencing symptoms at this age, you should not be sitting around watching hours of tv, never leaving the house. You've got to be exercising, you got to be doing physical therapy, you have got to be eating well, socializing and taking care of yourself in mentally, emotionally, and physically. This is the opposite of that. So who knows what this guy's going through? Maybe the news has just totally flattened him and he's kind of given up. But If he's going to live a relatively full and well-functioning life, he's going to have to come to terms with this and start taking care of himself better.

[00:52:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's an excellent point. So this living situation isn't really working for him either.

[00:52:20] Jordan Harbinger: No, it's not. And maybe that's something you bring up in that conversation like, "Hey man, I'm concerned about you. I want you to be as healthy as possible. I know it must be hard, but I don't think this lifestyle has given you the best shot at doing that. This isn't just about me and my preferences." Maybe that'll wake him up a little bit too. But again, this is his life. It's his diagnosis, his relationship. You can't make him change, but you can give him some perspective.

[00:52:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: And if you do all of that kindly and gently and compassionately, even if you give it to 'em pretty straight, that's how you have this conversation without piling on. You don't need to be cruel, you don't need to be unfeeling in order to be honest. What your roommate is going through is very sad and it's very difficult. But that doesn't mean that your needs, your very reasonable needs don't matter. You're one half of this living situation. So you can definitely make space for both.

[00:53:10] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. Go have this conversation. In longer term, go find a roommate who's more compatible or better yet, keep investing in yourself so you can live alone, and then you'll never have to deal with fricking ants in the kitchen. And Chloe being snippy with you as she pours the last of the fruity pebbles into the bowl in the morning and doesn't swing by the market to replace it or wash the bowl, because you know she doesn't wash the bowl.

[00:53:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: You know she's not doing any of that.

[00:53:30] Jordan Harbinger: No. Just ends up in the sink for three days and then she's like, "Where the bowls. There's no clean bowls." Do you live here, Chloe? I'm sorry. Do you live here? Who are you? Get out of my kitchen Anyway. Good luck.

[00:53:42] You know what your lazy and avoidant roommate and his rude mooching girlfriend don't deserve, the amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

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[00:55:20] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by The Gist podcast. Hey, I love to tell you about this podcast I'm hooked on. It's called The Gist. It's not your typical new show. The host, Mike Pesca, super smart dude, friend of mine. He really shakes things up with some cool, unexpected interviews that'll make you think twice about stuff. He's all about asking these tough questions and is not shy at all about diving into debates that'll have you and your debate friendly neighbor both scratching your heads. Mike is a really good interviewer. He brings on guests who wouldn't believe. Like there's this one episode with a writer from Pixar and Saturday Night Live who's convinced that AI is about to boot comedy writers at other jobs. I guess that's not a huge surprise, but kind of an interesting take. And the cult expert who also wrote the song Britney Spears sang as the theme to the Smurfs movie, which I didn't know existed, but okay. You'll get everything from the nitty gritty of The Wire real life scenarios to tech talk about guns that need your face and fingerprint to work, which seems like a really good idea. It's wild, it's fun, it's super engaging. Give The Gist a listen on your go-to podcast app. It's the kind of show that keeps on giving, evening after evening.

[00:56:13] If you'd like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in a searchable, clickable place. jordanharbinger.com/deals. Also, if you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't remember the code, can't find the code. Email me Jordan@jordanharbinger.com. I will happily surface that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show.

[00:56:41] Now, back to feedback Friday.

[00:56:44] Okay, what's next?

[00:56:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 34-year-old mother of two elementary school kids, and three days after my daughter was born, I found out that my college professor, husband had started an affair with one of his students. He left our home and rented an apartment for the next six weeks. This was the hardest and most painful thing I've ever been through.

[00:57:07] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Three days after childbirth. Talk about timing. Man, that is quite a bombshell. I'm so sorry that that happened. Wow.

[00:57:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: He ultimately came home and told me he wanted to fight for our family. I did too. I was still very much in love with him and felt that he was going through some sort of early 30s crisis. You know, the old, famous 30 early 30s crisis that hits everybody at 32 and a half.

[00:57:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. The quarter life crisis or whatever.

[00:57:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: I really thought that he would come to a senses and realized what he was gambling away. Two years later, he communicated with the same girl multiple times. He just couldn't completely end things, but he also didn't seem to really want to, as he didn't block her on social media or on his phone. I realized that it was time to walk away and started the divorce process. He continued to pursue a relationship with this woman and they got pregnant. Their relationship has been dysfunctional and toxic from the jump. They've broken up and gotten back together countless times. They're both immature, impulsive, and selfish, and they amplify those traits in each other. This all came to a head last year when my ex-husband made two trips to jail after his girlfriend filed domestic assault charges. The second incident happened while my kids were in the home, although in a different room, and he hit her while she was holding their now 1-year-old. My ex was never violent in any way during our decade long relationship, so this information was foundation shaking. He seemed so irrational and delusional to me. I immediately contacted a lawyer and petitioned for full custody of the kids. He signed away his custody without fighting, and the kids have been with me full time, since.

[00:58:47] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. So intense. Well, that's probably for the best and I guess I'm glad that he made things easy there. Yeah, this sounds like a very chaotic relationship. I am getting the sense that these two wind each other up and bring out the worst in each other. I'm not letting him off the hook whatsoever, but this combination does sound uniquely combustible.

[00:59:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: I also learned that he lost $30,000 to a guy he met in jail who told him he would invest that money in his drug business and turned it into $150,000. Plot twist, the guy took his money and ghosted. What on earth.

[00:59:21] Jordan Harbinger: Color me surprised, shocked for the love of God. Why? Why would you give 30 grand to a low-life nobody felon that you met in jail? You idiot. To invest in illegal business. Are you the dumbest person alive?

[00:59:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Just some weirdo who wants venture capital funding for his fentanyl business? I don't get it.

[00:59:40] Jordan Harbinger: Dude, there's something wrong with this guy.

[00:59:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:59:42] Jordan Harbinger: Which college is this guy a professor at? What on earth is happening? What is happening here?

[00:59:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, one explanation is that he might have serious financial problems, and maybe they're worse even than our friend here realizes. But even if you have money problems yet not firing on all cylinders, her ex. Or maybe, yeah, he's just desperate and that has completely warped his thinking. So she goes on, thankfully, I got all three of us in therapy shortly before all of this happened. As both kids were struggling with the transition between houses and my daughter was showing some intense anxiety while at his home. Oh, okay.

[01:00:18] Jordan Harbinger: I'm sure the divorce was hard on them. Kids absorb a lot. Yeah. I wonder if your daughter was picking up on some of the tension in his house. So good on you for getting therapy. Way to be attuned to your kids.

[01:00:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: We're now doing really well. My kids are thriving with a stable and consistent home life. They see their dad a few times a week, supervised by either me or their grandmother. They're happy to see 'em, and they're completely fine after saying goodbye. They aren't showing any signs of stress or anxiety. Amazing. That's a huge turnaround. That's encouraging. So she goes on, the problem is he now wants to see them without supervision for a few hours here and there, but mm-mm, I'm hesitant. I don't trust him. He's lied to me many times. Some of those lies involve the kids. I also know that he's still engulfed in this toxic relationship. I actually found out because I recently got a bunch of super inappropriate messages from him at 1:00 AM that were meant for her.

[01:01:11] Jordan Harbinger: Oof. That must have been weird. Also, that makes me wonder if he's taking care of himself properly. I mean, was that a true accident or was he just wasted and he starts sexting you, thinking that it's her? I dunno. Why isn't he in bed asleep? You know, I'm kind of speculating here. Just raises some questions.

[01:01:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Get some sleep, dude.

[01:01:30] Jordan Harbinger: Go to bed.

[01:01:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm 100 percent not okay with my kids being around him if she's there. He's saying that he's seeing a therapist and has gotten a side job to help recoup the money. He does help out financially, but it's significantly less than what I should probably be asking for. But then, I don't want to see him drown financially. I want him to have some chance at turning things around. But as long as he is pursuing this unhealthy relationship, he isn't doing well. He's very surfacey with his insight about all of this. This person has destroyed his life. And yet, he still can't give her up.

[01:02:03] Jordan Harbinger: Well, alright. Not to quibble, I take your point. I agree, mostly. But I also think it's a little simplistic to say that this woman destroyed his life. He definitely has destroyed his life. He pursued her. He sticks around in this dysfunctional nonsense relationship. He hit her. He gave his money to a criminal. I mean, she didn't help matters and she's definitely a part of this and she's bringing out the worst in. But let's just be totally accurate about who's responsible here.

[01:02:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Should I give my ex-husband more credit for these things? Do I need to relax a little on my rules around seeing the kids? Should I let him take them out for dinner without supervision or should I trust my gut and keep things the way they are? Also, what responsibility do I have to promote my kids' relationship with their half brother? How do I handle making plans for them when I have to coordinate with my ex's girlfriend? Signed, A Bomb Mom Dealing With an Errant Co-parent.

[01:02:55] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. What a tough family situation. I am very sorry that your ex-husband went off and did this. He sounds like an— he's being an idiot. And I'm even more sorry that his life seems to have gone off the rails in a number of ways since you separated. You guys gave it a real shot. Obviously, this relationship with this other woman was very compelling to him for reasons that are not entirely clear to me, but probably speak to some unresolved stuff in him and also in her, and as chaotic as all this is, it does sound like you guys are better off as co-parents than partners. So I guess I'm glad it played out this way, kind of. But yeah, man, very hard to watch and definitely concerning for your kids since they might be exposed to a lot of this dysfunction when they spend time with their dad. I absolutely understand why that puts you in a difficult spot.

[01:03:42] So let's just get this out of the way. Should you give your ex-husband more credit for his improvements? I mean, sure, why not? He does deserve credit for taking some positive steps. Validating his efforts couldn't hurt. He could probably use the recognition, a little encouragement. But I also understand why these steps don't feel like enough to you. Because even if he's going to therapy and he's working in another job, that doesn't necessarily mean he's getting better in these more foundational ways. I mean, who knows how he's showing up in therapy. What he's taken away from it, how he's applying it to his life. Like you said, his insight into all of this, it just seems pretty surfacey. And the real thing you want to see him make progress on is realizing that his relationship with his girlfriend is dysfunctional and unhealthy and either working on those things with her or parting ways. So yes, I think it's important to recognize him for the progress he's made. He deserves that. But I also get why you're finding it hard to golf clap for your ex-husband when he is like, "I went to therapy three times and found out my relationship is a little wacky."

[01:04:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, like good effort, bro. You want to dig a little deeper there and maybe take a look at some other parts of your life. You know, do you want to maybe get eight hours of sleep so you can perform at your best at work tomorrow and have energy to see your kids instead of sending dick pics from the bathroom to the woman you also inexplicably feel the urge to hit apparently, which landed you in jail, not once, but twice. And also, by the way, where you met a guy who conned you out of 30 grand on an illegal enterprise. I mean, I'm just still shaking my head about that detail.

[01:05:09] Jordan Harbinger: It's got to just be so hard for her to watch all this and bite her tongue. As for relaxing a little on your rules around seeing the kids, that's a little tricky. In a way, you have less reason to worry now than you did before. Your kids are doing well, they're happy to see their dad. They're not dying to get away from him or crying when they say goodbye. Maybe they have a pretty good relationship now. But then, are those visits going well because you or grandma is there? You just— you don't know for sure how dad would behave if he's alone with them. Like, is he going to order one too many beers at Chuck E. Cheese? Is he going to start badmouthing you over dessert? Is he going to take them bowling and spend the whole time sexting his girlfriend? Maybe, or maybe he'll be just as peaceful and present as he is during the supervised visits. So here's an idea. Maybe you let 'em take the kids out unsupervised once and see how it goes. Something simple— they go to the park for an hour, they catch a movie, they grab some ice cream, they come right home. And then, you really check in with your kids. Ask 'em how it went, see how they're acting, if there's any cause for concern. If they seem happy and normal, maybe you let 'em have another unsupervised visit and if things continue to go well, you can graduate to longer hangs with dad alone. But if you notice anything off, if your kids are being weirdly quiet, they hint that something happened while they were out, they suddenly don't want to see their dad the next time, then yes, trust your gut and go back to supervised visits only. But either way, I think it's totally fair to ask that he not bring his girlfriend along to these visits. You could say, "Hey, I'm sorry, but I see how chaotic things get between you, and I'm sure we both agreed that that is not healthy for the kids to be around."

[01:06:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree. I think that's a very reasonable request and you don't even have to say who's to blame for that.

[01:06:47] You can just say, you know, "I see that there's some friction between you guys and I don't exactly know how it happens, but we're on the same page here, right? The kids should not be around that." And then, down the road, if their relationship gets better, you can revisit that. Although, who knows if that's ever going to happen. I'm not clear on whether they're working on their relationship or have the desire to do that. It's kind of a mess.

[01:07:08] So you're asking another interesting question. What responsibility do you have to promote your kids' relationship with their half brother? Honestly, I'm not sure because sadly, that relationship comes with a lot of tension and the potential for more conflict. It sucks that their son might not have the closest relationship with his half siblings, but that's his parents' fault. I mean, I hope that they do end up having a good relationship because he could really use some good siblings, stable siblings, happy siblings as he grows up. But I dunno, that might not be easy.

[01:07:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm afraid the kid is going to have a tough go of it. I mean, dad hit mom while she was holding him? That and probably a thousand other weird moments. I mean that's got to make an impression, right?

[01:07:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah. That's going to be a core memory inside out style. So my feeling is you have a responsibility to not unnecessarily prevent your kids from seeing their half brother. I think you have a responsibility to not deliberately drive a wedge between them. I don't know if you necessarily have a responsibility to make sure that they are best friends, but you know what? Why don't you follow your kids' lead on this one. If they hang out with their dad more and they like their half brother and things are harmonious and they like doing things together, great. Then I would definitely encourage their relationship.

[01:08:18] Jordan Harbinger: Right. As long as it doesn't expose your kids to anything toxic. Like if visiting their half brother means they have to sit at the dinner table while his mom yells at them or dad drinks himself into a stupor or something like that.

[01:08:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. That's your first responsibility to protect them. And yes, I am sure that it is challenging to coordinate those visits with your ex-girlfriend. The only advice I can offer there is keep it kind, keep it respectful, keep it just focused on the logistics. I think you just have to be diplomatic and compartmentalize, so when you're on the phone with her, it's, you know, "What time would you like me to drop them off? What time can you pick them up? Thank you for making dinner tonight. I hope you and your son are doing well. Goodbye." I wouldn't get too deep with her or insert yourself into her relationship with your ex or anything like that. And if those calls are really difficult for you, just do some deep breathing and promise yourself that you'll stay on point. Remind yourself that this is just about making sure your kids have a relationship with their half brother, right? It's simple. I would just pretend you're coordinating with a nanny service or something, and that's the end of that.

[01:09:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a tough one. Imagine having to call up the student your husband started an affair with while you were married and who kind of stole your husband away from you and then turned his life into a dumpster fire. Like, "Hi, is little Caleb free for a play date tomorrow at three?" Dark Jordan wants to be like, "Hey, home wrecker. Just scheduling a play date between your Satan spawn and my innocent kids were collateral damaged in the divorce that you helped cause. We're free at three. Hope that works. Bye-Bye."

[01:09:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, brutal. But yeah, I kind of get it.

[01:09:41] Jordan Harbinger: Look, I take back the Satan spawn thing. There's no evidence that that kid's a monster. I actually feel bad for him. Like his mom is a knucklehead. His dad's a knucklehead. He's totally blameless in all this and he is growing up in what sounds like a very chaotic home.

[01:09:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:54] Jordan Harbinger: Poor kid. But yeah, I couldn't resist Satan spawn for the sake of the joke.

[01:09:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: You had to do it.

[01:09:58] Jordan Harbinger: But I had to. I'm sorry that this guy spun out in this way. This is definitely a challenging co-parent to have, and it might always be a little rocky until your kids grow up, but I do commend him for taking some positive steps. I commend you for navigating all this with a lot of strength, sensitivity, and attunement to your children. I do hope your ex confronts his stuff in a deeper way, but that's his business. You're handling yours, you're doing a damn good job of it from the sound of it. So keep up the great work. Keep being there for your kids and protecting them as needed. And hey, call me crazy, but maybe tell your husband not to invest in any more drug trafficking operations, huh? Just a little business tip from your Uncle Jordan.

[01:10:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right. Gun running. That's the illicit business you want to be in.

[01:10:40] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Better margins, way more fun. Thank us later.

[01:10:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: So much more exciting. You're welcome.

[01:10:46] Jordan Harbinger: Actually, I doubt the margins on guns are better, but that wasn't the point of that bit of advice.

[01:10:50] All right. What's next?

[01:10:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys. I know you're both great at networking, love connecting with people, and learning about them, and have terrific life experiences. That is correct, as evidenced by the ostrich farm story and the barber who was arrested for assault in front of me story.

[01:11:04] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: So I was curious, what conferences do you guys typically go to? What would you recommend a 25-year-old do to learn more about themselves, gain these valuable experiences and add some tremendous perspective to their life? Signed, Hoping You Bros Can Disclose Where You Rub Elbows.

[01:11:23] Jordan Harbinger: Me? Good at networking?

[01:11:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think he's confusing you with somebody else. I don't know.

[01:11:27] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I actually don't really think about it all that much. I just cross my fingers and hope people will be there for me when sh*t hits the vent.

[01:11:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's part of the brand, actually.

[01:11:35] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. It's part of the— you might've noticed I've got a whole course that I keep on banging on about. I'm actually about to do it again. So thanks for putting up with me. So if you want to learn more about yourself, meet interesting people, have valuable experiences, I would absolutely not look to conferences to give you that. Conferences can be interesting in an intellectual way. For example, you might hear about some cool ideas at Ted, maybe about neuroscience or sleep or the benefits of doing therapy on a trampoline or whatever. But the conference itself, probably not going to meaningfully change your life. The programming at conferences, in my opinion, it's usually kinda like, "meh" A lot of people swear by the self-help seminar type stuff, but I really find that a lot of it is culty and/or just a sucker funnel for some guru or want to be guru teaching it, or it's interesting, but it's secondary to the social aspect. What does transform your life is relationships and experiences. So if a conference adds to your life in a meaningful way, it's almost certainly because of somebody that you met there. So, Gabe and I actually met at a conference in what was it like, 2010, Gabe?

[01:12:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, 2010, 14 years ago.

[01:12:44] Jordan Harbinger: Wild. Yeah. So we met at this conference called Summit Series, which is more like a retreat than a conference, I guess. So it's kinda like Ted meets Burning Man meets Wanderlust or something like that. And as far as these things go, hey, it's a good one. It's honestly a lot of fun. But I can't say that it was something that taught me about myself. But Gabe and I both ended up in a random talk one afternoon and somehow just started chatting. Can't remember why. Can't remember how. I had just moved to LA with my old company, so we grabbed dinner a few weeks later, got along really well. And then, over the years, we just started collaborating on some articles and stuff. Traveling a little bit together to North Korea. The rest is history. So the value of that retreat for me was meeting Gabe and maybe, maybe a tiny handful of other people. And that value is huge for sure, but it wasn't because of the programming of the conference. My feeling is if you're 25, you don't really need conferences. You need to build skills, whether it's sales or programming or writing or speaking foreign languages. You need to build confidence in those skills and you need to generate a social circle. Conferences can be part of that, but there are really no substitute for that. Having those skills is what makes you valuable. It rounds out your hobbies, and most importantly, it puts you in touch with other people who are also interested in those things and opportunities that need your skillset. So the relationship building aspect is part and parcel of developing your toolkit, your craft, and taking it to interesting places slash the people you meet show you those interesting places. If I had to do it all over again at your age, I'd probably get a job at another country, even if it was like, I don't know, working at a hotel or a translation company or whatever. Learn a new language that way, make a bunch of local friends, get experience working in another cultural environment. If I'd done that earlier, I probably would've skipped law school. I probably would've stuck with my areas of interest far more than I did early in my career, which would've saved me a lot of time, saved me a lot of money, and probably such, hopefully gotten me to where I am now a whole lot faster and with a lot less stress. But then, yeah, I probably wouldn't have met my old business partner, which sort of set me down this path. So who knows? Things always play out the way they kind of have to, or the way they did, anyway. Prioritize this other stuff over conferences. That's my take. And if you're going to attend some sort of event, I'd pick one that's hobby related. For example, you go to Thailand for a week and you do Muay Thai training, or you go to Brazil, you do some jiujitsu stuff. Don't go to some networking specific event for like startups, unless you have very specific goals for that conference. Like there are people who will be there who you want to connect with, and you reach out to them beforehand so you can make sure it happens instead of just hoping you cross paths when you're there.

[01:15:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: For sure. Totally agree. I got to say, Jordan, meeting you at Summit Series obviously, literally changed my life. I mean, you're the reason I started traveling more ambitiously, why I started pursuing my writing, how I got into podcasting. But you know, you didn't change my life overnight, it happened slowly over many years in the way that we grew together and the stuff we did together, the collaboration. So, obviously that wouldn't have happened if we hadn't bumped into each other at that retreat. So you could say that the conference was essential. But really, I think it was just that the event brought us together. And after that, it was just about how we nurtured our friendship and then created really cool experiences together, which really started with going to North Korea that first time.

[01:15:58] Jordan Harbinger: Right. There's a world where we could have met on Twitter or whatever, and maybe the same thing would've happened. There's also a world where we meet and we didn't foster much of a friendship.

[01:16:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly.

[01:16:06] Jordan Harbinger: In fact, it's funny, I remember when we grabbed dinner that first time, we met at some random restaurant in Hollywood or whatever. And they had the most epic, bougie, grilled cheese sandwiches. I remember that. And a day or two before we were supposed to go, you texted me saying, "Hey, I'm just confirming we're on for dinner at this place at this time." And I was like, "Whoa, this person is actually following through on our plans." Because i'd been in LA for, I don't know, a month or two at that point. So many people were flaking on me. I had come out from New York where people don't bail on plans nearly as much. I was starting to realize the cliche about LA people being flaky was true and you didn't do that. So it's like, yeah, you can meet super interesting or important people at a conference, but how are you nurturing those relationships? How are you showing up in them? What experiences are you creating through them? That's what really matters.

[01:16:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, I agree. And I'm so glad that I confirmed dinner because my God, I don't know where my life would be if we hadn't crossed paths. So I'm with you. I'm not crazy about conferences. They're not my favorite vibe.

[01:17:03] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-Hmm.

[01:17:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: I will say this, they're a very efficient way to meet a lot of people at once, which is usually what you end up paying for.

[01:17:10] Jordan Harbinger: That's true.

[01:17:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: But you don't need them. Like you're better off reaching out to people you're excited about. People you have something to offer and traveling and creating rewarding experiences and you know, all of that. By the way, travel is by far the most stimulating experience, and it's a great way to meet people. But also reading and building your skills and being present and generous in your relationships, that's basically it. But if you ever do see a conference that's relevant to you and you think that it's going to attract interesting, solid people and they're not charging you, you know, three months rent for two days of lame workshops and a drink ticket, then yeah, maybe give it a go. Just remember that the best thing you can do there is meet one awesome person, not attend 17 different talks about biohacking and emotional intelligence in the hopes that it's going to make you a richer person.

[01:17:58] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Reading books and watching YouTube or listening to podcasts can give you that same thing and much better. But if you happen to sit next to the right person or walk up to somebody interesting at a mixer afterwards, then it could be a game changer. But you could probably do the same thing in an airport terminal or on LinkedIn, maybe even better and definitely cheaper. I love your question, man. It's a great one for a 25-year-old to be asking and good luck.

[01:18:19] And I want to caveat this actually, Gabriel. If you are in a very specific industry or the conference is curated in some way, like you get invited to a thing. I get invited to these conferences. I'm not going to mention the name of it because I'm not sure what their sort of standards are. But I got referred by this guy who's like a rocket scientist and a super smart dude, and they're always like, "Can you make it to this event?" And the people who are coming and it's always like the CEO of OpenAI, the head of Google publicity department or of like— not even publicity but some like department in Google. This person from the Department of Defense, this person from the Department of Transportation. And then I'm like, "And you want my lame ass over there?" Like, okay. That seems like a pretty cool thing to be a part of. There's other conferences that are like, "Okay, everyone who's here is an entrepreneur that owns this kind of business or is in this circle of businesses and is this big. And also we met with everyone personally, so there's no DBAs."

[01:19:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[01:19:14] Jordan Harbinger: That's good curation. And I'll buy tickets to those kinds of things and do those kinds of events. But if the curation is you paid a hundred bucks for the ticket or $5,000 for the ticket, I'm probably going to pass on that because you're just trying to turn this into a money maker. You don't really care about who's there. Like you said, it's never the programming at the event, it's always who's there. So if they're just letting in anybody who can buy a ticket, it's probably going to be lame and a waste of time.

[01:19:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is a very good caveat, and you just reminded me of something that I completely forgot about, but I'm just going to quickly tell this story because I think it might help this guy. So this is very funny. Early, early on in my screenwriting days when I was really just starting out, I knew nothing. Really, I was so green. And I also knew nobody in the industry. And I don't know if anybody listening has ever heard of this before, but there's this thing and it happens in LA. I think it might also happen in smaller cities where there isn't, you know, Hollywood is very far away. There are these things called pitchfests for writers where it's a cattle call and it's really unpleasant and you basically go there with your projects in tow, like your little pitch, and you line up in these lines for the companies whose representatives are there. And from 9:00 AM till like 5:00 PM you can just meet one after another after another with these executives and pitch them your ideas. And I went and I did this, and I truly, one of the worst days of my life. I mean, it was so depressing and it was very demoralizing, not just because I didn't really know what I was doing and my pitches were not good. It just confirmed how difficult it is to break into the industry because you're like, there are so many people who want to do this. And then, there are these events that are run by people who are kind of preying on amateur screenwriters and making you pay a hundred bucks or 200 bucks or more to have access to these executives. And half of them seem like they didn't want to be there. I mean, it was like, it was a really, really bad day.

[01:21:08] Jordan Harbinger: Narrator, "They did not want to be there."

[01:21:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: So I walked away from that experience a little scarred. And then, I think two years went by maybe, and I wrote another script and I learned a little bit more, and I was like, "I wonder if I should go back to that event, but with a new perspective and I should give this another shot." and I decided that I would, but I did something different this time. I asked my friend in the interim, since I went to the first event. I met a really wonderful producer who ended up becoming my collaborator on a number of movies and is also my really good friend and she had a small production company and I was like, "How would you feel about me going to this pitchfest? But I will go as an 'executive,' quote unquote, of your company and see if I can maybe source some projects that are interesting to you. You don't have to go. I'll do all the work. And then while I'm there, maybe I'll meet some people and I can kind of get my little thing in while I do this other thing." So I went, and by the way, everything you need to know about this event can be summed up by the fact that the moment I wrote them saying, "Hey, I'm an executive for this company you've never heard of, can I come?" they were like, "Of course. sure. And we'll pay you a hundred bucks to be there." So I was like, okay, this whole thing feels like very lame and not well done and scammy, but whatever. So I went and it was one of the most eye-opening days I've ever had because for eight hours I sat across from people who are in my shoes pitching their projects. And I got to see what a good pitch looks like, what a bad pitch looks like, where people make mistakes.

[01:22:37] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, this is brilliant.

[01:22:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: It was extraordinary. And then, during the lunch break they're like, oh, all the executives go have lunch in the side room while the participants have to like walk across the street to the chilies or whatever. And I was like sitting at lunch with all the people I wanted to meet, but it wasn't weird because I wasn't trying to pitch them on anything. I was kind of a peer.

[01:22:55] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[01:22:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: So it was actually kind of brilliant. And the funniest thing about it was at the end of the day, they asked all the executives to come by the little station where the people who run the conference are sitting to come collect their money. And I'm like, "Oh yeah, I forgot I'm being paid to be here."

[01:23:10] Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah.

[01:23:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: So I had to line up for 20 minutes to go get the my money. And while I'm standing in line, I run into this woman who's super nice and we end up totally clicking and we actually are still friends and colleagues, kind of.

[01:23:23] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

[01:23:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: And then, I got to the thing and they're like, "Here's your—" They hand me a $100 bill in cash, and I just almost burst out laughing like, "Dude, you have no idea. I'm just as lame as everybody else here." But it was such a great thing and I didn't really plan for it to be so great, but I just wanted to throw that out there because the thing I took away from that day was, if you can ever change the rules of an event like that to your favor, do it.

[01:23:47] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

[01:23:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: And sometimes, you have to get a little crafty and you got to be a little weird about it. And you got to kinda like call in a favor, pretend you're someone you're not. And I'm not advocating for being a total fraud. In this case, it was innocent and it was fine and I still got what I needed and I think I actually did a better job with some of the writers than some of the executives there. So everybody won. But the brilliant thing is if you don't have to be the customer or the end user, if you can kind of be a few other things alongside, that's how you win. And if you ever find a conference that you want to go to, and you don't want to be just like every other schlub who paid 250 bucks for that drink ticket, but there are people you want to meet. Maybe you offer to help them run the conference. You say, "Hey, can I pitch in and you gimme a ticket and I can hang out?" A lot of conferences are willing to do that. Anything you can do to just change up the standard rules to work in your favor is great. So just want to share that.

[01:24:35] Jordan Harbinger: This is like the professional version of setting up an online dating profile that's a woman. Just to see what kind of lines come in your DM inbox.

[01:24:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, exactly.

[01:24:44] Jordan Harbinger: It reminds me of when I first did that back in the 90s and that's how I started catching pedophiles.

[01:24:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Perfect.

[01:24:48] Jordan Harbinger: So it was a slightly different outcome for me.

[01:24:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[01:24:51] Jordan Harbinger: But, yeah.

[01:24:52] Anyway, hope y'all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in and everybody who listened. Thank you all so much. Don't forget to check out the episodes this week with Charles Duhigg. A lot of good feedback on that so far. And Miles Johnson on international arms and weapons trafficking and other assorted intrigue, as well.

[01:25:07] The best things that have happened in my life and business have of course, come through my network. Speaking of which, the circle of people I know, like, and trust, yada, yada. sixminutenetworking.com. I think we've sort of hit this nicely hard. The course is free. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig the well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need 'em. Again, all free. sixminutenetworking.com.

[01:25:26] Oh, and if you haven't signed up for it yet, come check out our relaunch newsletter for the show. It's called Wee Bit Wiser. It's a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you, delivered right to your inbox once a week. So if you want to keep up with the wisdom from our 900 plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com/news. Show notes and transcripts on the website at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, discounts, and ways to support the show at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram, or just hit me on LinkedIn. And you can find Gabe on Instagram, @GabrielMizrahi or on Twitter, @GabeMizrahi.

[01:26:01] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Erin Hoskins. Her advice is general and informational in nature. Please seek independent legal representation before making any decisions. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with someone else who could use the advice we gave here today.

[01:26:33] In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

[01:26:40] Ever find yourself trapped in a cycle of always wanting more, never feeling content? You are about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show where Scarcity Brain author, Michael Easter unravels the mysteries of our primal drives and how they can be both our downfall and our salvation.

[01:26:54] Michael Easter: I'm a investigative journalist, but I firmly believe that to understand a story, to understand all the mechanics of it, to get the information that you need to really tell a story, you have to go in person. Sometimes, I get to go to the nice shiny, comfortable labs where they bring me coffee and it's, you know, at Harvard or whatever. But some days, you find yourself in Iraq in a prison, looking at cells of drug dealers and terrorists. But ultimately, I think that going there makes you get a better story, makes a story more interesting, and gets you better information to really understand it. Everyone knows that everything is fine in moderation, so then the question is why do we all suck so bad at it? People keep eating when they're full. We often find ourselves shopping when we already own a ton of stuff. We scroll through social media or keep binging news when we know it's not necessarily improving our mental health. When you think about how humans evolved, everything we needed to survive in the past, it was all scarce and it was all hard to find, right? So everything from food to possessions to information, even influence and status, the number of people we could influence, all hard to find, all scarce. And we lived like that for basically two and a half million years. And it wasn't until very recently in the grand scheme of time, that we started to get abundance of all these things that were sort of built to crave. So in the past, it always made sense to eat more food than you needed, if you had the opportunity. To hoard items, to try and get as much information as you can, just keep seeking information, all that would give you a survival advantage. And then, our environment's split and now we have an abundance of all this stuff and we're still compelled to just consume and consume all the stuff.

[01:28:26] Jordan Harbinger: For more about our insatiable desires and how to harness them for good, tune into episode 902.

[01:28:34] This episode is sponsored in part by TRIGGERnometry podcast. Looking for a podcast that shakes things up and gets you thinking? Dive into TRIGGERnometry where comedians, Konstantin and Francis tackle big ideas, no matter how controversial, with a mix of humor and seriousness from intellectual heavyweights like Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris to activists from all walks of life. They're chatting with everyone, sparking open fact-based discussions, whether it's a deep dive with a former presidential advisor or a lively debate between hardline feminists and left wing rebels, TRIGGERnometry as your go-to for diverse opinions and enlightening conversations. Get ready to challenge your perspectives and add some intellectual spice to your playlist. TRIGGERnometry is always super interesting and thought provoking. It's even sometimes quite challenging, but the conversations are honest. That's why TRIGGERnometry is a good add to your rotation. Search for TRIGGERnometry. That's T-R-I-G-G-E-R as in triggering. Nometry, N-O-M-E-T-R-Y on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.