1310: Sick Mom Needs Me — But So Does My Family | Feedback Friday

Sick Mom Needs Me — But So Does My Family | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the industrial binder clip helping me hold these stacks of life drama together and occasionally cutting off circulation to my fingertips when I get bored, y'all know you did that in school too, Gabriel Mizrahi.

On The Jordan Harbinger Show, We decode the story secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turned their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, money laundering experts, Russian spies, cold case homicide investigators. This week we had hacker slash musician, or technologist, I believe is the term we're using, Benn Jordan. We talked about AI cameras that are being deployed all over the United States and these cameras, they scan your license plates.

They essentially track our movements, and the data is blended with consumer data, and it really can paint a picture that is not very anonymous of [00:01:00] everything that we do. It's pretty invasive technology. Pretty fascinating as well, and these things, your tax dollars are paying for this, which is even crazier.

We basically talked about this new normal in which we are just constantly observed wherever we go and how this is being used and misused by law enforcement, hackers, rogue states, other nation states, et cetera. We also did a skeptical Sunday, last Sunday on water filters. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and compare Gabe and my dynamic to various mundane office supplies.

I guess also, I am still sick, as you can clearly hear. You know what's crazy? I did the math because I have nothing else to do. Because I can't do any, I've been sick the majority of 2026. I'm a guy that used to get sick like once every two to three years, and when I would get sick I'd be like, oh, that's weird.

I'm sick. And then like three days later I'd be like, oh, okay. It wasn't that bad. Now I got sick in December. It was some kind of kid cold that just took me out. And Jen got sick [00:02:00] too. She got better. And it took me forever to get better, like forever. I had a crazy sinus infection. I had to get antibiotics and everything.

I'm prone to sinus infections, but I rarely get them. Then I fly to Saudi Arabia, I'm fine. I, I heal up. I fly back because that trip got aborted. You heard that before? And then I come back and my daughter's like, I don't feel so good. I'm like, okay, my kids, my son, same thing. They're sick for like 24 hours.

Me and Jen get really sick. She gets sick before me. And I'm like, oh, I hope I avoid that. And about, I don't know, four days later I'm like, uh, I did not avoid that. And so I've got the same thing, like at least the same symptoms. I've got crazy amounts of stuff in my lungs, crazy amounts of stuff, and I'm like, is this COVID or what?

But I tested, no. I mean I have an expired COVID test, which maybe isn't the most accurate thing because it's like two years outta date. But I tested for that. Nothing came up. So I'm like, is this the flu? Because my stomach is fine. I just have like slamming headaches, sinus infection, fever, and yeah, it sucks.

What's weird is I can work out, I can like eat. I have an appetite [00:03:00] that has not changed at all. I just feel crappy. Yeah, it's been the majority of this year. It's such a weird thing. I'm not stressed out. I sleep fine. Like I don't get it. How is this happening?

Gabriel Mizrahi: It must just be the Petri dish of having children, right?

Jordan Harbinger: I think it's just having kids bringing home five different viruses and then they get over it in 48 hours, and me and Jen are like, oh my God. Everything at once. So, yeah, so much for antibiotics slash sleeping it off, not working for me. Speaking of industrial clips, I got an interesting Spotify comment on the Abigail Marsh episode on psychopathy and altruism

Gabriel Mizrahi: episodes 1292 and 1293, by the way, super interesting.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, I actually read all those Spotify comments and I often respond, responds. So this listener evil, double Z, wrote Research on the Charitability of America can be misleading because some researchers count tithing giving money to a church as charity. It's not, turns out if you remove that data from the pool, the US ranks rather low.

Jordan. The fact that there are so many kids going without food and medicine means America is an awful place. I [00:04:00] never really heard much about this tithing thing. I, I know next to nothing about how charitable giving gets calculated in these studies. So I shared this with Abigail and I was like, oh yeah, maybe this person has a point.

She had a really interesting response. Gabe, you want to read that for us?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure. So she said, first the US is a more generous welfare state than most people realize. Even if it's a weird and inefficient patchwork. And at the individual level, there is not a close association between political orientation and how generous people are.

Liberals and conservatives show different patterns of giving, but are roughly equally generous. That was news to me as well, Jordan. I don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Because I assumed the people who don't think exactly like me, we're all miserly, miserable, terrible people, but okay,

Gabriel Mizrahi: doesn't matter what side you're on, just the other side's worse.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm saying both sides just, if their opinion is different than mine, they, it makes them a bad person. That's what I've been told.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right. There are horrible people. Exactly right. Helps to not be on on any side and then everybody's the worst and you are too.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. Everybody's the worst. That's what [00:05:00] my Spotify comments are like right now.

I used to love you until you disagreed with me on this very point that I love to make. That isn't even what you or your guests said on the show about Iran. Okay. Unsubscribe.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So she goes on and lots of data sources point to Americans being on the high end of the generosity spectrum. If you look across countries, rarely the very top, but always close to the top and across all different kinds of data.

Here are two. America is number eight most generous. If you look across seven different kinds of altruism in our research after New Zealand, the uk, Netherlands, and a few others. Among other things, we looked at the five year running average of charitable giving, volunteering, and helping strangers, which is part of the world giving Index where we are consistently near the top.

Yes, we are a religious country, so we do give a lot of our charitable donations to religious organizations and reasonable people can disagree about how that differs from other kinds of charitable giving. For example, Utah has [00:06:00] historically been predominantly Mormon and Mormons are prolific tithers, but historically, Utahans also donate by far the most kidneys to strangers per capita, suggesting these are not unrelated choices.

But we are generous even when you use measures that don't rely on that.

Jordan Harbinger: I thought that was a thoughtful take on this topic and thankfully backed up by real data. My gut response to that comment was that that listener had an axe to grind with America. In fact, I noticed that actually in Spotify comments specifically that a lot of the comments there are anti-US or anti-US policy or something like that and, and they're much more, is vitriol the right word?

They're much more aggressive and vitriolic, yeah. Than anything I see in my email inbox. And I think it's because it's easy to leave a Spotify comment and you can be like, yeah, my name is Bum Runner six. Instead of like writing me from your email address, that's your name. And then you, you know, you know, I'm going to reply to you at some point and be like, Hey, none of these are facts [00:07:00] anyway.

I also vaguely assumed America was not the most giving country given how much you hear in the news about income inequality in the wealth gap and selfish billionaires, blah blah, blah. I mean, all that stuff can also be true, but Abby's research paints a very different picture. I know it's hard to measure this stuff, but it's great to know that even in America, this great sandbox of dog eat dog capitalism, there are decent folks helping other people in so many different ways.

And look, I'm not saying that in a raw yay America's perfect kind of way. I'm more of a, let's just be accurate and look at the data kind of guy. So big thank you to Abigail for that. Also, one quick thing before we kick off. A couple weeks ago, we did some sponsored content with Bjorn Ekeberg on red light therapy.

Some of you guys had mixed feelings about it. I was actually expecting way more negative comments about this. People really actually quite enjoyed it, sponsored content basically for those who don't know, that's where I sell a little tiny bit of my soul for a bucket of cash. And again, a bit of my soul, not the whole thing.

Nobody has had the budget for that so far, [00:08:00] unfortunately slash fortunately. But it what it does because people are like, oh man, you're just making whole episodes that are ads now. Yeah, that's the idea. Because I can keep the ad load on regular shows lower because of that. So instead of having 12 ads or 10 ads in a show, like literally most podcasts on most networks do.

I can go, you know what? I'm going to keep it at whatever it is, like six. And then the ones at the end, which I assume no one listens to, unless you're like driving and can't switch the show. Um, I can keep it low. I don't have to do more. I don't have to shove things in that interrupt conversation because some company is going to be like, Hey, we want to have our CEO on and talk about something now.

Some people said, Hey, I'm skipping that. That's totally fine. In fact, that's why in the first five seconds of the episode I say, Hey, this is sponsored content. It's not the same sort of rigorous deep dive into a topic. The idea is if you're not interested in that, you can skip it. I want to tell you upfront, so you don't figure it out 20 minutes in and feel duped.

Most [00:09:00] people actually said, Hey, I like this. That's cool that this company sponsored you. I wanted to hear about this. And furthermore, don't worry, it's not like every week there's going to be a sponsored episode. Um, don't panic about that. You're not going to have to screen every episode. Is this sponsored? It's going to be marked as such.

I mean, look, I'd love to have that every week, and then I could record this show from a fancy yacht and then I can invite all of you to come on and hang out with me on it. But alas, it's just a sort of occasional thing for now, and it's always going to be clearly marked. And again, I was pleasantly surprised at how many people really dug that kind of thing.

So that means we're we're getting it at least partially, right. As always, we've got fun ones. We've got doozies. I can't wait to dive in. Gabe, what's the first thing out of the mailbag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. My wife and I are both in our late twenties. In October, 2023, we managed to scrape together enough money to buy our first home together.

Since then, I've repeatedly found myself becoming the fallback plan for family members who can seem to plan well financially. I've straight up said no to a [00:10:00] few people, but I haven't said no to every person who's asked.

Jordan Harbinger: Hmm, that's tricky. Why'd you give cousin Jeremy money and not me? Well, he's not a moron.

Well, okay, fine. He's a moron, but you're an even bigger moron. Uh, I gotta draw the line somewhere.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, cousin Jeremy's just funnier. I don't know. It's, and he has better weed, so

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, exactly like awkward. But here's the real issue. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: For example, in summer 2024, my brother moved in with us for what was supposed to be a week and ended up staying nearly three months.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We only allowed this because he seemed like he was trying to do better for himself until he simply stopped working and stopped trying altogether. He sat in my living room and played video games for almost a month before we made the decision to kick him out. The night we were going to give him the news and a timeframe his baby was born and he left on his own.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my gosh. You're lucky that resolved itself. But how stressful and also not cool. Imagine gave the gall the gall.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The gall. That is exactly the word that just came to [00:11:00] mind. I cannot imagine moving into someone's home for a week supposedly, and then staying for three months and playing Grand theft auto in the living room instead of searching for apartments on West side rentals.

What are you doing, dude?

Jordan Harbinger: It is shameless to the point, like I am having secondhand embarrassment. I would be losing so much sleep over this. I would not. I would sleep in the backyard before I would sit on this man's couch and play video games.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I am with you on, I mean, I guess maybe he is like, I'm his brother.

It's okay. A little bit still, I'm entitled to this. Even if it's your brother, maybe. But even if you're somebody's close relative, yeah. I would not be able to even sleep comfortably. Yeah. I would just feel too bad.

Jordan Harbinger: I guess he was just escaping what sounds like a very stressful life. But it sounds like, like he said, it just gave up.

That is just a level of squatting, freeloading that is just hard for me to wrap my head around it in any way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And now he's a dad I want, so I wonder where he, where did he go? I'm confused.

Jordan Harbinger: I have a feeling he just shacked up with the mother. Where was the mother?

Gabriel Mizrahi: But where was she? Yeah, either way. He clearly had another [00:12:00] option the whole time.

So

Jordan Harbinger: yeah, it's like, oh, I guess I could live with the woman who's having my child, but Ugh, that sounds terrible. She

Gabriel Mizrahi: doesn't like Grand Theft Auto.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no, man, the Xbox is right here. That makes me just like, why did he need to move in with our friend here if he had another option the whole time? What a weird situation

Gabriel Mizrahi: now as a fall of 2025.

So for about six months, my mother is living with us again due to poor planning and money issues. I say again because this isn't the first time I've had to house my mom for similar reasons.

Jordan Harbinger: Dude, you need to move to China. China. I mean, none of these people stop asking you for a couch to crash on, for God's sake.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's so funny. Can I crash on your couch? Oh yeah, totally. No, you know, the thing is though, it's in Guangdong now, so

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, yeah. Hey, look, no pro. If you're looking for jobs in Hunan, you can totally crash with me. I got you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Even before we owned a home, we had to move her into our first apartment, a 600 square [00:13:00] foot studio, because she got evicted and had nowhere to go.

Oh boy.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's sad and stressful also. Wow. 600 square foot. Ooh.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was going to say which part is more stressful getting evicted, knowing your mom has gotten evicted or living with your mom in a 600 square foot shoebox. I lived in one that was about that size and there was, I couldn't have a house guest for more than a day.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, no kidding. Unless they sleep on top of you. Maybe that's the idea. Well both look getting evicted later in life is cra. I've been evicted before when I was in my early twenties and it was like a business thing. I had like rented this place for people who worked at my old company and like, you know, we just like bit off more than we could choose.

Surprise, surprise. And yeah, it's scary because like you are getting kicked out of the place where you live. Luckily I had another place where I actually lived, but still yikes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I couldn't leave my mother homeless, so I told her to stay with us and she did for a couple of months until one day when I asked her how much she had saved her response.

[00:14:00] Nothing. After that we got her to save some money and we helped her move into her own apartment.

Jordan Harbinger: I don't want to jump the gun here, but I am angry so she could save money. She's living with you in a 600 square foot apartment. She just didn't bother doing it just like the brothers. So these people, they have options.

It's just somehow easier to ask our friend here to house them because he was the only responsible person in the entire family and bought a house and actually pays his fricking bills.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But this time the situation has gotten a bit more complicated. For one, my wife and I are expecting our first baby who's due in about six months.

We seriously couldn't be more excited about this since we'd been trying for some time.

Jordan Harbinger: Amazing. Wow. Congratulations, man. I assume like that couple from last week, you guys conceived while your mom made a Hot Pocket and watched Love Island three meters away from you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You know what, Jordan, you're joking, but I'm just thinking about the math.

Yep. She's been living with them for six months. Baby is due in six months.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:00] Yep. That was some walk-in closet sex.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Thank God it wasn't the 600 square foot apartment that you guys conceived in. At least you have a little room this time.

Jordan Harbinger: No. Well, 30th the square feet was that walk-in closet maybe. I don't know.

That was some bathroom sex. I have a feeling.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Okay, so now they have another freeloader that's, I

Jordan Harbinger: assume, right? A

Gabriel Mizrahi: baby is crashing in her womb because it got evicted from the last one.

Jordan Harbinger: Babies are so financially irresponsible. When are they going to get their shit together?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Never Famously entitled.

Jordan Harbinger: Famously entitled.

Yeah. Paras literal parasites.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The other major complicated factor is that my mother has been battling cancer for several years.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy. Ye old plot thickness. I love

Gabriel Mizrahi: my mom and empathize deeply with her illness. I've shown up for her in ways I never thought I'd have to because of it. She's a good person and we have a good relationship.

But I also feel the strain this situation is putting on my marriage and my ability to focus on my growing family. The thing is she can care for herself and live on her own. She [00:16:00] doesn't make a lot of money, but when we suggest she work elsewhere, she says she feels stuck because her insurance from work is paying for the treatments and doctor visits, which I completely understand.

But she also doesn't try to better the situation by gunning for a promotion, working a side job or anything like that. She works her 36 hours per week, comes home and hides out in her room most of the time. If my wife and I didn't cook at home most nights, she would literally just go to bed hungry. All of this makes us feel a little like she has no fight left in her.

Fortunately, she's put on some more weight since moving in with us and she's gone for walks the past couple of days, so maybe there's a glimmer of hope there. Only time will tell, but I don't know her to be someone who sticks with things long term when they're uncomfortable. Caring for her is essentially all on me.

The brother I mentioned bounces from job to job and has been evicted. My other brother is currently in prison. My aunt lives out of state and my mom's not [00:17:00] close with any other family. She's also been somewhat of a recluse since we all grew up and left home, so she doesn't have many friends either. We desperately want to reclaim our home and our privacy, but I'm struggling with how to tell my mom that we can't have her living with us long term.

I'm torn between Gelt and responsibility. Then recently, her doctor said that he believes the tumor has gotten a little smaller. If our living situation has contributed to her getting better somehow I don't know how I could possibly ask her to find other living arrangements. I feel bad for even feeling this way to begin with.

How do I set a boundary with a parent who is seriously ill without feeling like I'm abandoning her or blowing up my family relationships? Signed in over my head, trying to keep my mom fed and in a bed when she can't manage her bread and I'm trying to build my own life instead.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. Very tough situation.

Very tricky. I really feel for you here. So first of all, congratulations on buying your own home, on building your own [00:18:00] life, and now on the baby. That is super exciting. The sense I'm getting from your letter is that you've managed to do what the rest of your family can't. Become stable. Keep a roof over your head, build a steady, connected, successful life.

It's very impressive, man. Not a lot of people can create enough escape velocity from situations like this, but you did and I'm so proud of you for that. This is, it reminds me a little bit of my mom, you know, she had like a craptacular kind of family situation as well, similar in some ways. Second, I'm so sorry about your mom going through cancer.

Just sucks. It sounds like she's handling treatment relatively well. I'm very happy to hear that she's getting better, but it's a really sad thing to watch a parent go through, and I'm sorry that it's pulling focus from the life that you want to build. Life is indeed crazy, man. I'm also sorry that your mom struggles to take care of herself on her own.

I'm touched. You guys have such a good relationship and I understand that she's not a bad person, but she is putting you guys in a very tough situation. She's making all of this harder. That sucks too. I also have a [00:19:00] strong suspicion that taking care of your family has been your role for a long time, even before buying the house.

And so thinking about taking a new stance with them just feels very strange. The Gelt you're feeling. Yeah. It's partly a very normal reaction to not stepping in and saving people you love, but I suspect it's also a symptom of rewriting an old pattern, feeling like you're ditching someone who's looked to you to save her and prop her up for a, a very long time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, for sure. I also wonder if his mom might be kind of depressed right now. That's the vibe I'm getting.

Jordan Harbinger: I get that vibe. I mean, he said it seems like there's no fight left in her. She just goes in her room and would go to bed hungry if they weren't feeding her. I mean, that's not a happy person.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The not trying to better her situation, the hiding out, the going to bed hungry, the not tending to her relationships, just the general passivity.

They do sound like signs of depression. Now, being depressed when you're going through cancer and struggling financially is not uncommon. Very understandable. But I also get the sense that mom has probably been depressed or depressive even before the diagnosis. And what's interesting [00:20:00] about that is if that's true, then our friend here probably hasn't just propped his mom up financially.

He's probably propped her up emotionally. It is very common for children to feel like it's on them to keep their parents' mood up. I think especially their mother's mood up to keep them engaged with life even if they don't realize it. So I wonder if that's where a lot of this Gelt is coming from. It's not just about making sure she doesn't become homeless, which of course is a very real concern.

It might also be about withdrawing that fundamental life energy from a parent who really struggles to maintain it on her own.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That basic desire to live and to live well.

Gabriel Mizrahi: There's a template that goes back a very long way for most people, and it can be really, really painful to put down.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, that's why he's worried about abandoning her

Gabriel Mizrahi: or like he said, feeling like he's abandoning her.

I don't know if he is

Jordan Harbinger: right. Anything less than saving her and doing what she wants, that feels like he's fundamentally failing her, which is, it's interesting.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. So maybe we need to talk about what abandoning means.

Jordan Harbinger: Agree. Because I think his definition of support is, [00:21:00] it's a little, a little bit miscalibrated.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Anything less than like total caretaking feels like desertion.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Exactly. And meanwhile, she is actually the one who's putting him in this position.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. I think you could make the opposite case. I think you could argue that his mom is abandoning herself. But he's taking it on him.

Jordan Harbinger: I agree with that.

And then she's making it his problem, basically outsourcing the most basic responsibilities to him. I mean, think about it, Gabe, we have a, a few things we kind of have to do as humans, right? We've gotta work so that we can provide for ourselves food and shelter. And she's like, fine, I'll go and do the work thing and do the bare minimum, but I'm not going to handle the food and shelter part.

I go, oh wow, okay. This is behavior I would kind of expect from a preteen. It's strange to me. Anyway, so I'm a little torn here. If his mom were an awful person, if there were a bunch of other people who could help her, I'd feel more comfortable telling him to tell her, Hey, sorry mom, you gotta figure this out.

But she's a decent person. They have a good relationship. She's clearly struggling,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but then he's also starting his own [00:22:00] family wants his home back. I mean, look, if she were very old, very sick, could not live on her own different story, but she can totally live on her own and she's not, to your point, holding up her end of the bargain here.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, cancer notwithstanding that is not Okay. So here's my feeling about all this. I think you need to find a middle way here and that middle way it needs to help your mom get through this chapter, and it needs to move you closer to prioritizing yourself and your family. You guys are stepping into a new life phase.

It's a beautiful life phase. It's not really healthy or appropriate to be living with your mom if you don't. Absolutely have to. I think the question you need to ask yourself is, what is a fair role, a sustainable role that you can play in your mom's life without compromising your sanity and your family?

Because there's a lot you can do for your mom. You can help her navigate housing, treatment, doctor's appointments, logistics. You can help stabilize her finances again, you can help her find another apartment. You can try to recruit some support so this doesn't all fall on you. If money is super tight. You can look into housing programs for people with medical conditions or income-based housing.[00:23:00]

You can encourage your mom to rebuild ties with some other friends or family who can share the load. There are community groups, religious support networks. There are nonprofits dedicated to helping sick people manage their finances better. A lot of oncology departments, they have social workers and patient resource coordinators who are plugged into good options.

And of course you can still help her coordinate her care. You can advocate for her with her doctors. You can provide emotional support, all within reason. So there's still a lot you can and should do to help your mom without turning your home into an open flop house. And the way I'd communicate this is I'd sit down with your mom.

You could do this with your wife if it's helpful or just one-on-one. And I would say, mom, we love you. We want to support you through your treatment. We're so happy that you're getting better. You're not alone in this, but with the baby coming, our home is, is going to need to just be the three of us. So we need to work together over the next few months to figure out a permanent living situation for you.

Your health is trending in the right direction. The baby's due in three months. Let's set a date for us to find you a new home and get you set up. [00:24:00] I'll still be involved. I'll still be close. I still love you and you have a place to live until we find an apartment. You don't have to worry about that, but it's time to find a solution that works for all of us.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Nice. I like that a lot.

Jordan Harbinger: And then I would have the larger conversation about what she's been asking you to do for her, what you're going to need from her to make this work. Namely, basic financial responsibility. I know it's hard to imagine saying this to your mom, but I feel like she needs to understand the position she's put you in, the ways in which she's just not holding up her end of the bargain.

Now, given the history here, she might not go. Oh, a boundary. I love boundaries. I love hearing that I'm not holding up my end of the bargain and I won't be able to squat with my son indefinitely. Totally respect that. So I'd be prepared for any number of responses from her when you have this conversation.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point. And if you get a negative one, I would try to stay neutral. Loving still, but neutral. And I wouldn't walk things back or capitulate immediately to make everything better. You can say, okay, I see this is really hard. I know it brings up some uncertainty. Nobody is leaving you on your [00:25:00] own. We are going to figure this out together.

I'm just asking for an equal partner here.

Jordan Harbinger: The together piece is big. I think she needs to step up here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And then I would be very vigilant about what that brings up in you, the Gelt that you talked about. Sadness, whatever it is, because that's part of the dance between you and your mom. She asks or demands implicitly or explicitly you feel guilty.

You accommodate her. If you draw boundaries, she might bristle at it. You feel like a bad sun and then you cave and then the situation just continues. If you want to rewrite this pattern without feeling like a bad son, like you said, you have to notice how these feelings arise in you. And then you really have to be willing to feel them capitulating to your mom.

Yes. Part of that is a genuine desire to care for her. Of course. And that's very kind. But part of that is also probably a way to not have to feel these feelings at all.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. But what's interesting is then he feels other feelings, resentment, frustration, stress. So it's like, which bad feelings do you want to feel?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it's a good question because he's accepting the unpleasant [00:26:00] feelings over here because they feel safer and more acceptable than the unpleasant ones over there. And by over there, I mean, the ones closer to mom,

Jordan Harbinger: the ones that might provoke her, might disappoint her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. You'd rather carry that than have to bear her response.

Jordan Harbinger: So I hear all that and I agree, and I'm genuinely worried about his mom's money situation. Let's remember that our friend moved her into his studio apartment once before because she got evicted. She straight up, didn't save enough money to pay the rent, and then when she moved in, she didn't save any money until he was like, Hey, I'm getting involved and you are saving money.

So my fear is even if he manages to get her into a new place, how does he prevent this from happening again? I'm with you. He can't be his mom's savior over and over forever, especially if it's not even really necessary. But if she's not able to take care of herself in this way,

Gabriel Mizrahi: is it kind of necessary?

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, I'm kind of worried that it might be,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I would say there are solutions there too.

Maybe he needs to get more involved in her finances. Maybe he needs to monitor her bank accounts. Cut the rent check [00:27:00] himself each month. Maybe he needs to collaborate with his brother or his aunt or his wife and tag team mom's money situation. So it's not all on him. There are options.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Yeah, that's kind of a relief.

There's a middle ground here. I'm just worried about this woman. I feel like she's expecting her son to save her because she won't take basic care of herself and because he continues to save her, she just has no motivation to improve at all.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But that's exactly it. If he stops this pattern, she might be forced to take care of herself in the best way.

Jordan Harbinger: True. And then there might be a transitional period where he supports her from afar until she can figure out how to do this on her own.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, he's late twenties, right. So she's probably what, in her fifties, early sixties, or who knows? Maybe, maybe even late forties. I mean, she's not 70, 80, 90 years old. I keep picturing this frail old woman with cancer who can't keep track of her.

Bank of America card. But then I remembered that that actually is not the case.

Jordan Harbinger: No, you know, that's a good point. But even if she can handle this better, if she's just inept and that won't change, then he's going to have to be involved. To some degree.

Gabriel Mizrahi: To some [00:28:00] degree. The degree is where the boundary comes in.

Jordan Harbinger: Look, another idea occurring to me here, you're about to have a baby. I'm sure you know that that's going to be very full on for a while. So if your mom can't afford her own place, if she needs to stay with you for a while, what if you told her, look, mom, we could use some help with the baby for the next year or two years, or, I don't know, six months, whatever.

You pick a reasonable timeframe. So if you're going to stay here, we'd like to ask you to pitch in for a couple hours a night, watch the baby, help with dinner, whatever it is you guys could use help with. I know that might sound kind of quid pro quo. It is quid pro quo. She is straight up expecting you to give her free plays with free food, free rent, whatever.

At least this way, the arrangement becomes fairer to you guys, and she feels more of a sense of purpose being there. But you need to make the timeframe and expectations very clear. Once Naomi turns one or two or whatever, we, we find you your own place and you are on the hook for two hours every weekday night and four hours every [00:29:00] weekend or whatever, or every day on the weekend, whatever it is.

And you just, you can't hold up in your bedroom and watch Virgin River every night and come out for food and go back in. We need you involved.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It is interesting because it is quid pro crow, but like you said, she's already made this somewhat transactional, so

Jordan Harbinger: yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: maybe Fair is fair. This is a clever solution to this.

It does sound like a win-win to me.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. I mean, look, a couple hours of babysitting a night is like, let's say it's 30 bucks an hour, which is, I don't know, probably a decent wage. Where he lives. That's pretty good. In exchange for food and a place to sleep, you know? And then four hours on the weekend, it's like, okay, well we're talking about 120.

I mean, this is like a person earning enough money to be tolerated, I guess. And look, he might not want her there at all, but if she has to be there, this feels like the best arrangement. And candidly, I'm a little disappointed that his mom didn't bring this up herself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: This would be a different story if she was like, look, I know I'm imposing on you.

I know this is a lot to ask. I really want to find [00:30:00] ways of being helpful to you. Let me help with the baby. Instead of being like, oh, I didn't save any money. I just figured I would mooch off you indefinitely. I mean, Gabe, I'm imagining, he's like, how much have you saved? And she's just like a teenager who's wasted all their money on what a kid's buy now, Yugi O cards, I dunno.

Like she just looks down and is like nothing like, oh, I was hoping you would just never ask. And the consequences of this would just never come to bite me in the ass. It's like insanity. Like the brother, no self-awareness slash doesn't care enough about other people to be like, yeah, I'm freeloading. I should do something about that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a whole other part of his letter is that this seems to be a pattern in the family. This is the family way. But you know what else I'm thinking about? I wonder how his wife feels about all this. I have to assume that she is not a happy camper.

Jordan Harbinger: No way this is going to be a problem in their marriage if they don't figure this out, which I think he probably knows already.

So, I'm sorry you're in this position, bud. I know it's really hard, but this is also a great opportunity to find a new way with your mom, with your entire family. I want to say something that might sound a little mean. It's not my intention, I promise, but the [00:31:00] picture you've painted here, I get the sense your mom is a bit of a mess, and I'm sure her parenting played a big role in your brother's outcomes.

You seem to have charted a very different path, which like I said, is hugely impressive and beautiful, and I feel it's very important for you to protect this life you've built and not allow your family to drag you down. I'm not telling you to disown them. I'm not saying you shouldn't help them appropriately where you can, but the housing is almost the least of it.

What's really at stake here, I think, is your independence, your identity, your momentum, your new family, all of which need to be your top priority. So my strong advice is to keep your eye firmly on those things and trust that you're not a bad person for not wanting to compromise them in order to save people who cannot or simply will not save themselves.

Sending you, your mom, your wife, and your new baby, a big hug and wishing you all the best you know who else wants to live with you, rent free, if not in your home, then at least in your head, the amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back.[00:32:00]

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Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Cook Unity. Cook Unity has been honestly a lifesaver for our family, and not just because our schedule gets crazy. We're also helping feed my parents who are in their eighties now and these days they're not really cooking, they're not driving much either.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. For 10 years, I've co-owned a small massage therapy business 50 50 with my mom.

Our massage therapists have recently transitioned from independent contractors to an employee model. My mom and I have worked [00:35:00] alongside each other, which created the illusion that we worked together well, but truthfully, we were just in silos. Since moving to an employee model, conversations about building an ethical business have been coming up, and my mom and I have different ways of going about that.

Namely, I'm noticing that my mom gets overwhelmed easily and struggles to collaborate. She has a strong need for autonomy, is not liking the idea of structure, and doesn't want us to quote, unquote, control or police other people. I keep telling her that it matters how we wield our power rather than the fact that we have it.

Nevertheless, we keep getting into these stalemate. I keep bringing issues up to her problems I want us to solve with protocols, and my mom keeps getting overwhelmed and needs us to stop talking.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay? I'm getting the strong sense that mom is not fit to run a business at all.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Having these conversations continually get shelved is making it impossible to make any progress at all on solving the issues that [00:36:00] are keeping us stuck to boot.

She keeps going to cha BT and wielding it as an ultimate authority. For example, she'll turn to cha BT and then say things to me like she wants us to quote unquote steward instead of manage our employees.

Jordan Harbinger: That's so annoying, so, so annoying.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But when I try and talk to her, she totally freezes up and checks out.

She's gaining the knowledge but not living it in action. I don't know how I'm supposed to run this company with her when every conversation needs to be quote unquote metabolized for days on end, stretching into weeks. I don't know how I'm supposed to take her at her word when her words are coming from a large language model and not her.

I brought up joint therapy with her and she said she doesn't think we need it, blah, blah, blah. Something about leading a horse to water and drinking.

Jordan Harbinger: That's hilarious. Meaning her mom uses the lead to horse to water metaphor or wait, no, she's saying she can't lead her mom. To the wa. Wait, I don't get it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Unclear. I'm realizing now that she might have just written that for herself as a draft and [00:37:00] forgot to throw it in. Maybe like what? Whatever.

Jordan Harbinger: That's funny. I've done that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Whatever it is. That is kind of hilarious. Yeah, I

Jordan Harbinger: remember doing that on an exam in high school. I wrote something like et cetera, et cetera.

Something, something, something. It was a science exam. And the teacher was like, Jordan, come here for a second. He was also my neighbor and my friend's dad, thank God. So I walk over there and I'm like, yeah, Mr. Carney. And he is like, tell me how, I can't remember. I was like, tell me how something with precipitation, you know, whatever works.

And I was like, oh. Da da da, and he is like, et cetera, et cetera, and I was like, no, like it does this and this and this. And he just kept saying, what do you, you know, et cetera, et cetera. He was like, messing with me and I was like, he's like, explain it to me. Exactly. So I did. And he goes, okay, but here's what you wrote.

And it literally was like, and then water evaporates, et cetera, et cetera, becomes a cloud, rains down later, et cetera, et cetera. And he is like, were you expecting me to fill that in for you? Because I've seen that trip before. And I was like, no, that was a placeholder. And he is like, you gotta remember to come back to that stuff.

He's, he's drawn XI

Gabriel Mizrahi: love the idea of filling out an exam and writing, like in brackets. [00:38:00] Insert correct answer here.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Like at least I, I should get some points for at least trying, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Hey, here's the part where I don't know how anything works, et cetera, et cetera. Oh gosh. Anyway, her mom sounds extremely challenging.

This would drive me up the wall.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. More like blah, blah, blah. Something about one person rowing, one person drilling holes in the boat. Am I right?

Jordan Harbinger: Literally, blah, blah, blah. 10% off your first month of family therapy with your mom, BetterHelp dot com slash Jordan, et cetera, et cetera.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh boy, how do I deal with someone who keeps using CHA PT for all mental and emotional labor and personal conflicts? In fact, for almost everything. Signed a massage entrepreneur trying to knd, that's K-N-E-A-D. The knots out of the system that impedes a way to meet my need. That's NEED in case you can see, of which I have plenty, including trying to run this business at high speed, which [00:39:00] is why I will concede that I would love to plead that my mom not use Chad GBT to advise on how to lead when I would love to proceed.

With running this business as I please.

Jordan Harbinger: That was a new one, Gabe. I like that format. Puns and meta rhymes. You wildland, bro. He's

Gabriel Mizrahi: changing up, right?

Jordan Harbinger: All right, so this is mildly infuriating on so many levels. First of all, I'm very sorry you're struggling to work with your mom and to communicate. There's a reason people say don't work with family.

I'm not trying to shame you here, it's just this would be hard with any business partner. I'm sure it's 50 times harder with a parent, and I'm sorry that it's making it impossible to make real progress on solving these problems. The thing is, running a company, it's all solving problems every single day.

Big ones, small ones, managing people, taking care of your employees, making sure everything's running properly. If you and your business partner can't even talk about this stuff, I mean, I literally don't understand how you are supposed to run this company together. I can tell you exactly how this dynamic goes.

[00:40:00] Okay. Either you start doing everything yourself because she can't and slash won't, and then you resent her and you guys grow even further apart or you continue to tussle and or avoid each other and the business suffers, maybe even crumbles unless something big changes you would've to change the way you approach her, the way you talk to her, how you frame these things in a way she can partner with you on.

Not that I think that's really on you. And or she would've to learn how to tolerate these conversations long enough to actually find a solution with you. And candidly, based on what you've shared, it sounds like it's more the latter, but I, I wonder what she would say if we could talk to her. It's possible just making room for this idea that there's something about the way you talk to your mom that easily overwhelms her.

Now, even if that's true, I would still say she needs to be able to tell you, look, I want to find a solution with you, but I'm overwhelmed by the way you're talking to me. I need a different approach, so I'm not letting her off the hook here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's fair. But if she were the kind of person who could just say that she probably would not be in this position [00:41:00] in the first place and she would not probably be trying to get a.

A mini part-time MBA from the University of Cha GPT.

Jordan Harbinger: Right. But you know, look, I'm trying to address all the possibilities here. So I'm actually a little surprised by your question. This is not ultimately about working with a partner who uses AI to navigate personal conflicts, although that is super annoying.

And if I had to listen to my avoidant and frazzled mom used words like steward and metabolize in meetings and then just go off for three weeks and avoid discussions, I would be pulling my freaking hair out. Really this is about working with a partner who, based on what you shared, just doesn't have the wherewithal to tolerate conflict, to manage stress, to hang in the tension of a decision, and to consistently collaborate with you on finding solutions and everything that entails.

In other words, again, to run a fricking business. Shit,

Gabriel Mizrahi: you went, you did it yourself. You didn't go with the soundbite this week. Yeah. Nice.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. No.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And her mom also seems to have very different ideas about what good [00:42:00] management looks like in the first place.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, excuse me. Excuse me. I think you mean stewardship, Gabriel.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, sorry, dude. Stewardship. What? I don't even know what that means.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm. It's a corporate buzzword.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The sense I'm getting is that her mom has some real anxiety around power and responsibility in general.

Jordan Harbinger: A hundred percent.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't think this is philosophical. I think she's so afraid of managing people and being in charge, that she's trying to wriggle out of this and find cute buzzwords that make it feel less stressful, which is absurd.

Jordan Harbinger: You said riggle?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, wriggle.

Jordan Harbinger: Wiggle out of

Gabriel Mizrahi: wriggle.

Jordan Harbinger: Wait, hold on. Are these two different words,

Gabriel Mizrahi: wiggle and rigg? I, yes. I believe they're different words.

Jordan Harbinger: I did not know that. I thought you wiggle out responsibility. How

Gabriel Mizrahi: did you say that? Wiggle out of

Jordan Harbinger: it. Yeah. I thought you wiggle out of responsibilities, but no, it makes sense that these are two different words.

Like now that I think about

Gabriel Mizrahi: it. Yeah, I just looked it up. You, no, you wriggle. And I think when it's WR, you say wriggle.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Well that makes sense. So I just thought that wiggle was spelled WI. No. Why did I think, I guess I never knew how to spell the word wiggle. Okay. Or I thought it was both. I'm not sure.

Now I have to examine my brain to [00:43:00] figure that. And then also I thought that was just the same word. You know what? It's funny because I also remember the word touchy. T-E-T-C-H-Y. I used to think people were just saying touchy. Oh

Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: And spelling it Weird.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Weird.

Jordan Harbinger: Or saying it weird. Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's hilarious.

No, that's a different word. Yeah. From the team that brought you Knapps. And

Jordan Harbinger: this is a little bit less dumb than that, I hope, but I mean, I bounced off the Boll, the rock bottom with Knapps, I think.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I just love that this is part of the family.

Jordan Harbinger: Now, leave Spotify comments about this. Did you know that wiggle and wriggle were two different things?

Or were you kind of like, no, I thought you wiggled out of responsibility too, because now that's a funny visual.

Gabriel Mizrahi: To be fair, they are closely related. Like you wiggle is when you kind of move in place, but when you wiggle, I think it's when you like try to get outta something or avoid something. I see. So they are kind of, they're adjacent, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. So back to the actual situation at hand, why did they [00:44:00] move to an employee based model if she doesn't want to manage people? I am so confused. That is the wor. That is a terrible decision.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was just wondering the same thing. Yeah. Now they gotta stay on top of them even more.

Jordan Harbinger: There's probably reasons for this.

Like maybe their state was like, Hey, these people are definitely not contractors because they only work at your place. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Fair.

Jordan Harbinger: But if you hate all power, no matter what. Maybe don't run a small business. You kind of have no business doing that. No pun intended. Go work for someone else. Because this stance on power, quote unquote, it's not getting you anywhere.

In fact, it, it's you are going to run into serious issues if you just refuse to manage the people that work for you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel like she needs to have a real conversation with her mom about what is happening here between them and how it's impacting the company.

Jordan Harbinger: I agree, but I have no idea where she's supposed to start because this monster has like six heads and they're all trying to eat our friend here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. I probably would not go after the chat GPT head from the start. I think that's the least problematic part of this letter. Yeah. Maybe you sit down with your mom and you say, look, I think we're both noticing some new [00:45:00] challenges since we moved to this employee-based model. That's to be expected. You and I have more contact than we did before.

I'm realizing that we have very different ways of approaching problems. Here's what I'm noticing, and you can share briefly some of your observations, and you can ask your mom, what are you noticing? You know, what has this been like for her? And then I would say something like, I would really love to work on this stuff so that we can be better partners to each other and also for the benefit of the company.

And if there's anything that I'm doing to contribute to any of this, I want to know, and I want to see if I can do anything to make things more productive. Then I would talk specifically with your mom about this tendency to get overwhelmed, the struggle to collaborate, her apparent need for autonomy, this allergic reaction to structure, to controlling, quote unquote your employees and why she feels the need to go away for days or weeks, and what is she up to in that time, and why is it hard for her to stay in touch with you as she works through a decision and maybe see if she responds to you in a new way.

Even a little openness and flexibility could make a very big difference.

Jordan Harbinger: I like all that in theory, Gabe, but my [00:46:00] fear is that her mom does what she always does and just gets overwhelmed and says, sorry, I need to stop talking about all this. I can sort of visualize this. And it's annoying. Even the visual of someone being like, I, I can't think about this right now.

Gosh, get away from my business.

Gabriel Mizrahi: If that happens, then I would say, okay, mom, I hear you that you're overwhelmed. My intention is not to overwhelm you, but when you get overwhelmed and pull away, then we stop talking and we don't make any progress. So I'd really like you to stay in this conversation and maybe you can tell me why it's so overwhelming, and maybe I can help you find a way to make these conversations more doable.

Jordan Harbinger: And if she still can't,

Gabriel Mizrahi: if she still can't, then I think our friend needs to start thinking about whether this partnership really makes sense.

Jordan Harbinger: That's where I'm at with all this. I worked with dysfunctional partners for years, just way too long, and I know how crazy making it is. I just don't see this ending.

Well, these people don't change. Plus when the partner driving you crazy is also your mom. That just adds a whole other layer to the dynamic. It's very tough.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. I'm sure this overwhelm, this [00:47:00] avoidance, these qualities didn't just crop up in their working relationship for the first time. Right. If she's like this at work, I'm guessing she was probably like this, at least to some degree growing up in their home, and that probably taps into some very old personal stuff and I'm sure that sends our friend over the edge.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. I'm sure if I had to run an Etsy business with my dad or whatever, I'd last like three weeks, we'd be at each other's throats. Love you, dad. Not going to happen. Also, when you're annoyed with your business partner who's just a business partner, it's so much easier to say, Hey, the way you're doing this is driving me crazy.

We need to get better at this. But when it's your mom, that can be really hard. Even harder than if it's your dad. It might feel cruel, scary, or dangerous. It's just, it's hard to call out your own. Parent.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The other option is maybe you buy your mom out and you take over the company.

Jordan Harbinger: I think so. And if she's not open to that, I would say maybe you leave it to her and you just go start your own.

There are options.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, but I would not make any decisions until you guys really talk. You gotta give this one good shot and see if you can make progress before you make a big move.

Jordan Harbinger: Honestly, this sounds very stressful, very [00:48:00] frustrating. It sounds to me like you're looking for a real partner here, someone who can really be in this stuff with you, which is what every business partner needs and deserves.

And you're not getting that from your mom. Ultimately. You are not stuck in this business. I'm not saying you should piece out tomorrow, but I would remember that you have the freedom to partner with the people you want to partner with and build the kind of business that you want to build. It sounds to me like your values and skills are the right ones, and those are going to be great assets to you.

Whatever you end up doing, and if you end up going through a business breakup, maybe have chat, GPT, write your resignation letter. I'm sure it will steward all of this perfectly and it will give your mom plenty to metabolize. All right, now we want you to metabolize the deals and discounts that we're about to shove down your throat.

We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Quince. I'm a pretty normal guy, asterisk. You guys know me, so that might just not be true. I'm not spending hours chasing down fashion trends. How's that? [00:49:00] I'm definitely not trying to reinvent my wardrobe every season. I just want clothes that are comfortable, well-made, easy to wear without looking like, you know, too much of a dad.

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You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com/news. All right, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabe. I must say I am a little disappointed with your recent feedback on Ellie, the woman taking advantage of her mother-in-law with those long visits with the kids. That was question three on episode 1294.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this is the mom that was getting UTIs from sitting so long because her daughter-in-law like held her hostage and gossip to her in the kitchen while the kids watch TV upstairs for hours every day.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You didn't give enough consideration to the fact that Ellie's husband Peter might be the problem. I'll be 49 this year and I've spent my forties unlearning the subtle misogyny that's been bred into us all. I'm a mother myself, and although my mother-in-law is an absolute dream, I never [00:52:00] considered spending nine hours a day with her.

That's probably because I have friends, parents and siblings, and a husband who doesn't emotionally neglect me. Maybe Ellie has no one else. I'm not excusing her taking advantage of her mother-in-law though. So don't roll your eyes yet. Let's take a look at Peter. He seems to know very little about what his wife is doing at his mother's house, or does he know everything?

If he's the breadwinner, then why isn't he offering his mother some money when he hears that she's been feeding his family? Also, are we supposed to believe that he makes his own meals every night or eats out every day after work? Hey Pete, where the hell are you? He seems to be living a separate life from his wife and kids.

Does he do anything with his family also? This we don't know. Yeah, we don't know.

Jordan Harbinger: How would I know?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Fair questions, but we don't have the answers.

Jordan Harbinger: Fricking Pete, you deadbeat.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, the siblings all seem to be pinning everything on Ellie, typical clannish behavior because bro can do no wrong. It's all very dysfunctional [00:53:00] and precious.

Peter seems to be out of the loop altogether while the whole family bitches about his wife, who's probably struggling really badly and completely isolated.

Jordan Harbinger: This, this letter, I love her writing style. It's so, this is what's going on in my head, but she's just writing it down. Love that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Did she move away from her previous life to be there?

Is her own mother an asshole? Does any of Pete's crew actually have a relationship or a conversation with her sister-in-law? Ellie, I've always found that women are villainized so much more quickly than men. They either don't let Granny see the kids, or granny sees the kids too much. Anyway, love the show.

I'd love to know if this gave you a little food for thought or are you rolling your eyes at the Snowflake? Feminazi from Ireland. Signed. Feeling a bit heartsick that you were so quick to point the finger at the chick.

Jordan Harbinger: This is an interesting perspective. I appreciate it. To state the obvious, we didn't have the full story about Ellie.

This is one of the interesting challenges of doing this show, and it's something Gabe and I constantly obsess about. [00:54:00] Are we getting this right? What are we missing? What would the other person in the story have to say? We try to account for this as much as possible. We don't always do it perfectly, but it's important to us and we do our best.

So I think you are making some very fair points. If I recall correctly, we did kind of nod to Peter what he knows about the situation, what he doesn't know, what role he can play in making things fairer for his mom. You're right, it's easy to villainize Ellie, there were plenty of details in the letter that suggested she was oblivious at best and selfish at worst,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but I also remember us being a little tough on the mother-in-law too.

The mom of the writer, for not having the wherewithal to stand up for herself a little bit.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally. And so is that misogyny, are we just blaming all the women in the story because they're women? Eh, I'm not sure. I agree There. I do take your point that it can be easier to point the finger at a woman when it comes to childcare than at a man who's at work during the day.

And I guess because the bar is pretty low for men in the childcare department, they're traditionally not as involved with the kids. But I also remember us saying that if Peter knew what was happening at the house, he might have some strong feelings about [00:55:00] it and intervene. So I don't think we really did let him off the hook entirely either.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree. I also don't fully buy the narrative that Peter might be the sole problem. I mean, even if he is more responsible for some of this than we appreciated at first. I think it's very rare that one party is entirely to blame for anything. The picture I got from that letter was mom was abandoning herself, which is very interesting theme today among the moms.

Ellie was probably taking advantage of her and or oblivious to how much he was asking of this mother-in-law. Then Peter is either encouraging it or he's just distracted and unaware himself and together they all create the situation. That feels true to me.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Where I fully agree with our friend here is even if Ellie's out of line, we can be curious about her reasons.

Like you said, maybe Ellie has no one else. Maybe she's spending so much time with the mom because she's lonely and exhausted and craves the connection, and that's fair. Although I do kind of remember us talking about that, how maybe time at her mother-in-law's house is [00:56:00] actually a reprieve from childcare.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We did. But what's interesting to me about this is yes, let's absolutely be curious about Ellie's reasons for acting this way. Absolutely. But if it's born from loneliness and isolation. That's still her responsibility, right? Like we can still ask the question, why is she so lonely? Why doesn't she have other friends?

I don't think it's misogyny to say, Hey, why are you so isolated? What are you looking for from your mother-in-law that you should maybe be getting from a few other people? And why?

Jordan Harbinger: For sure. I'm remembering now, didn't the letter writer say that Ellie's only friends are parents of other kids' friends?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, the other mom's in the carpool line or whatever, and that's about it,

Jordan Harbinger: right?

So yeah, so she basically just has no friends, and so she's turning to her mother-in-law to meet all of her social childcare, everything needs, but I hear you. That's compatible with her husband being emotionally checked out and distant as well.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's also true that if Peter is this kind of husband, if there are some problems in their marriage or he's just not as involved as he should be, which is definitely [00:57:00] challenging in its own way, it's still true that she chose him and she's not asking him for more so.

There's also that

Jordan Harbinger: good point, but look, I totally share your view that Peter and Ellie need to be way more conscientious about what they're asking his mom to do, the money she spends on these visits in a way that's the least of it, but it is significant and that's not cool to ask his mom to do. At the very least, he should be checking in with her.

Are you okay hanging with Ellie and the kids so often? Can we cover the costs? Do you need anything? That would be a nice thing to do. You're right that a number of siblings in that family were pinning most of this on Ellie. Whether that means they side with Peter and feel he can do no wrong, maybe, possibly could totally be the case, but that's also speculation.

So what I find interesting about your letter is I can hear you're very passionate about this topic, and I appreciate that. It's really good for us to see. And I do wonder if you might be mapping some of your own experiences and feelings onto this family

Gabriel Mizrahi: mapping interest. You mean projecting?

Jordan Harbinger: Well, no, Chad, GPT specifically told me not to [00:58:00] use that word.

It's mapping. Gabriel, we say mapping.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. We say mapping now. Got it.

Jordan Harbinger: But look, if you've dealt with anything similar in your own family, I can't blame you for that. Some of these dynamics and biases really are universal and that's why I'm glad you wrote in. And some of them are unique to each family, and we just don't know whether this family is actually being truly misogynistic when they serve Ellie some side eye.

I appreciate the questions and theories. I really do. For me, the biggest takeaway is we have to keep wondering about these people's reasons for doing what they do even when they're doing something wrong. Also, I want to keep being curious about alternative narratives in these stories and keep an eye on any subtle misogyny that might creep in because I share your view up to a point.

Gabriel Mizrahi: My takeaway from that letter still is, do not sit for hours if you have to pee. Because you can get a UTI News. To me,

Jordan Harbinger: that was a big lesson for me too. It's funny you mentioned that. I've been thinking about that ever since that episode. Every time I'm at my desk and I have to pee, I'm like, all right, just get up and pee.

Get a UT. I like that mother-in-law who doesn't go to Zoom by anymore. Speaking of taking a [00:59:00] leak, now's a great time for a break. We'll be right back.

Also, in case y'all don't know, there is a subreddit for the show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, if there's an episode you like, an episode you didn't like, you got questions about something, there's additional thoughts you want to learn from other people in the show, fam, come check it out.

A lot of cool conversations happening over there. That's at the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. All right, now for the recommendation of the week,

Lip Filla Clip: I am addicted to lip filler.

Jordan Harbinger: My recommendation of the week is an artisanal salsa brand called Double Take Salsa. Double Take Salsa. It's a mom and pop based in Minnesota.

It's grown from a local passion project to a beloved national brand. And they sent me a case of salsa and a bunch of hot sauce. And at first, you know, I was kinda like, all right, uh, salsa, hot sauce. Okay. But it's amazing. I, it's almost all gone. It's been like a month. It's flavorful, it's unique. I let my nanny try it.

Who? She eats salsa every day. She's Mexican and [01:00:00] she loves it. She's like, this is high quality. This is good stuff. It's not so spicy that it knocks you on your butt. Everything is balanced really nicely. One thing that I love about it is there is a fine line with both salsa and hot sauce. There's a fine line between wow, this adds kick and flavor, and then you know, over the line is I can only taste the spice.

My mouth is on fire and I got hiccups and I'm drinking copious amounts of water. That's not the point of hot sauce, right? It should bring out the flavors and the food and the texture, not just replace it and this stuff really nails it for me anyway. Highly recommend this stuff. It's so good. They also, since I contacted them about this, they offered everybody listening a 25% discount, which I think is pretty generous.

Just go to double take salsa.com, buy whatever salsa hot sauce you want. Use code Jordan at checkout, and I want to remind everybody recommendations of the week. They're not sponsored, they're not paid for. They are just recommendations of things we like. This one happened to be from a brand that wanted to offer listeners a discount.

This is not like they sponsored it. That's why there's a [01:01:00] code. I figured I should say that just in case anybody was wondering. By the way, you can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use a descriptive subject line. It makes our job a lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox.

A narcissistic Fairweather friend is insisting on moving in with you and your fiance, or you're stuck between getting mental health treatment and protecting a pension. You've worked decades for whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

All right, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. My wife and I have been married for over 20 years. We've raised two wonderful kids and in many ways raised each other from idiot teenagers to the functional adults we are today. As is frequently the case when people get married too young, our marriage has been fraught with strife from day one.

Those early years saw a lot of physical violence her toward me, infidelity again on her part, only lying, gaslighting, and manipulation. I certainly won't [01:02:00] pretend that I'm innocent of wrongdoing in our relationship, but I very much feel that I have given the best years of my life to a broken woman.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's intense, man.

So a lot of conflict in this marriage. A lot of pain. This is sad. Wow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: For context, my wife grew up in an abusive home riddled with violence and substance abuse. She was physically abused by her father and even witnessed him nearly murder her mother on several occasions.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God, that's dark. No wonder

Gabriel Mizrahi: when we got engaged in 19, I had no way of knowing the ramifications this type of trauma can wreak on a person.

To top it off, about 10 years into our marriage, she shared with me that she had been sexually abused by friends and family members starting at a very young age and not ending until she left for college.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God, that's terrible.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, at one point during her teen years, her father left and started a family with another woman only to be welcomed back by her mother.

About a year later. The addiction and [01:03:00] physical abuse resumed.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God, holy cow. This poor woman. At first I was like, what a piece of work, but now I kind of see why she's hitting him and cheating on him and spiraling. She's just, oh, I hope she's gotten some help.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Shortly after we got together, my family revolted against her.

I was blindly in love and couldn't see the red flags, but they could. They did their best to talk me out of the relationship, but I rebelled. This, of course, led to major strife between her and them strife. That continues to this day and has resulted in me having next to no interaction with them. I know there's blame all around for that situation, and as an adult, I could have more interaction with them if I wanted, but honestly, it's just easier not to and avoid the battle at home.

Oh man.

Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. So now we're hearing how he's created the situation. So it's not just his wife, it's also how he's cramping around her and trying not to provoke her and choosing her over his family to keep things on an even keel and all that. That's fascinating.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The physical violence has been gone for about [01:04:00] five years, but it was replaced with something much more devastating.

A few years ago, she started using the threat of suicide as a method to get what she wanted.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh my God, what a nightmare.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Among other things, she has used this threat to get me to move three times, including a move across the country to be far from both our families. I went along with it thinking that she would be better if she were away from her own dysfunctional family, but of course, they just decided to pack up and move near us with her support.

Jordan Harbinger: What that is so manipulative. I am just outta loss here, Gabe. I, I honestly dunno who to blame here and who to feel sorry for. There's so much stuff going on here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I know. Very confusing. So he goes on. Honestly, there are too many issues to list.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Yes, I believe you for sure.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Today, she has devolved into a very bitter, angry, controlling person.

She makes many demands, including that I bring her food in bed, do most of the household chores, and allow her to have full control over our finances. If she ever sees me [01:05:00] sitting down and relaxing, she gets instantly pissed and gives me a laundry list of tasks to do, even if she's in bed playing on her phone.

I've listened to enough of your shows to know why she acts this way, but frankly, I'm done with it. I'm very sympathetic to her childhood trauma and how it's shaped her. I've tried talking to her about it, but she just doesn't care. If I try to stand up for myself, she spends an hour lecturing me for being quote unquote defensive or having a quote unquote pride issue.

This argument just shuts me down.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, I'm biting my tongue. This is so hard to hear.

Gabriel Mizrahi: She did try going to therapy a few years ago, but it didn't work. I only recently found out that while in therapy she refused to acknowledge the past sexual abuse, a move that I'm sure was made out of shame. She was put on antidepressants, which she still takes, but in no way did she heal from her trauma.

Jordan Harbinger: Ugh. Therapy didn't work well. Did you tell the therapist what was going on? No. I hid the most important information about my past and then gave up, went to a shrink and put me [01:06:00] on Paxil, called it a day.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Ugh. Very frustrating. But you know, to be fair, I'm sure it's more like the thought of even going near this stuff is too devastating and humiliating, so I just gave up.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, I hear that. But this is, there's just no way to deal with your trauma.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, clearly not. Our kids are now 22 and 19, and I love them so much. I came from a broken home and made an early vow never to walk out on my kids the way my dad walked out on me. I knew early on that our marriage was toxic, and I acknowledge the fact that I'm currently in this situation because I refused to leave.

To me, that was and still is worth it. I've been able to live every day in the same home as my kids, and we've somehow managed to spare them from most of our dysfunction. I'm not naive. I know some of it has been seen by them, but my wife's issues are almost exclusively directed at me. I actually think she's been a good mother to them.

Our kids are very nearly out of the house with the oldest getting married this spring and the youngest sure to fly the [01:07:00] coop within the next few years. For years. My wife has told me that she plans to leave me when the kids move out. While I do think this has just been a manipulative threat at times, I really can't see her staying with me much longer.

For my part. I decided a long time ago that if she doesn't leave, I will. My relationship with my kids is strong enough to survive divorce, and I feel that I've accomplished my mission of keeping the family together until it naturally grew apart. I also love my wife, believe it or not. I don't think you can spend 20 plus years with someone and not harbor serious feelings for them.

I just can't handle the toxicity anymore. I'm not writing because I want to fix her or the relationship. I know that's a lost cause I'm writing because I want to be prepared for our inevitable divorce in the near future. Aside from therapy, which I know you'll recommend, what practical steps should I be taking now to protect myself and be best positioned for life after marriage?

I'm looking forward to a dues of a sign off by Gabe. Don't let me [01:08:00] down.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, don't let him down. Gabe.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I know. He might stay with me for the next 20 years.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, ouch.

Zing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Signed a husband at his limit, though he knows that he's complicit in sticking around and refusing to pivot from a wife who's been quite wicked. Now it's trying to be explicit in it, about shaking off this grimace, charting my own path without tipping it. That I'm fit to file in a minute.

Jordan Harbinger: That was a ride, man.

Both the letter and the sign off. I feel like I need a drink, man. I'm sweating over here. This was not even my marriage, so, okay. Let me start by saying I'm very sorry for what you and your kids have been through these past 20 plus years. You know better than anyone, your wife's trauma, which is significant.

It sounds like it's done a real number on you. You've had to live with a person, understand a person, take care of a person who's just in a lot of pain, who's inflicted a lot of pain as well. For two decades. I can only imagine the psychological toll that that's taken on you. It's just gotta be immense.[01:09:00]

Obviously you've played a role in exposing yourself to that pain. I know you know that. I know you have your reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that everything you've been through the physical and emotional abuse of many kinds, the betrayal, the manipulation, the chaos, I'm honestly still reeling from all this.

It is heartbreaking. It's disturbing. It's unfair. So, okay, we could probably talk for hours about everything you've been through about your wife's trauma about the last 20 years. There's so much to discuss, but you're looking ahead. You want to know what practical things you should be doing right now to protect yourself and position yourself well for life on the other side of this separation.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And he is already taken away our favorite recommendation, so we can't talk about therapy.

Jordan Harbinger: That's right. The low hanging fruit is gone, which I, I have to go on record and say is absolutely one place you should be asap. Yes. And your kids too, but that's their business at this point. You don't need me to tell you that you have some very real trauma of your own because of this marriage and some very important things to look at, including these qualities that blinded you to your wife's dysfunction that kept you sticking around through [01:10:00] all this mistreatment.

I really do believe, and this is the last thing I'll say about this, I really do believe that the best thing you could do to set yourself up well here is to find a really good therapist and start talking because you have a lot to process. You're about to go through a massive transition, and I think the end of your marriage is going to bring up a lot of big questions and feelings and new challenges, and you're really going to want to have that space.

Okay, so practical. First of all, you need to find a solid attorney. If it's true, your wife is already planning on leaving you, I don't know how messy the separation is going to get, but given everything you've shared about her personality, I'd go into this, assuming that it's going to get very messy and very contentious, just for the sake of being contentious.

I have to imagine she's going to make everything more difficult than it has to be. I also think that because she controls all of your finances, which is a deliberate move on her part, just dividing your assets is probably going to be a cluster. Dude, she's probably going to rage at you through her attorney. She's going to drive her own attorney.

Insane. Mark my words. She'll fire. At least one or one of them will [01:11:00] quit on her, and that'll drag out the process. I don't mean to stress you out even more, but I could totally see that happening. So I'd go into this, assuming that your divorce is going to be quite difficult. I would also find an attorney who understands the nuances here and who's ready and willing to fight.

You need excellent representation. So honestly, if your mind's already made up, I would probably start reaching out to lawyers now. Book some consults, share your story with them. Tell 'em your goals, your interest in this divorce. Ask them what they think is likely to happen based on what they've seen. And I would ask them, should I be documenting anything right now?

What sorts of stuff, what financial steps can I legally take? Now, how might the court view financial control, emotional abuse? What risks do I face if she escalates these self-harm threats? Then start taking their advice now. That way when one of you finally says, all right, I'm leaving, you're 12 steps ahead.

I know that feels kind of Machiavellian, but I think you owe it to yourself to protect yourself in this way.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm. Sound advice. [01:12:00] The other thing I would be doing is rebuilding your relationships with your friends and family. I think that's so important.

Jordan Harbinger: Read my mind Gabe. He needs support, he needs community.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The sense I'm getting from your letter is that you're very isolated, obviously from your parents, but also I imagine from a lot of other good people in your life.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, she made them move away, remember? Which I assume was part of her strategy. So you're also physically far from people who could be showing up for you.

That's not an accident.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It sounds like the closest people in his life are probably is kids, which is wonderful and I would not be surprised if they're bonded through all of this, but there's probably kind of like an us against mom thing, even if she was a good mom to them. They're all he has. And yeah, that's better than the alternative, but that also might have kept them from building relationships with other people outside of the immediate family.

So I would start rebuilding these ties and it might take some time, especially with your parents, who I assume are probably pretty concerned and perhaps a bit hurt that you chose your wife over them when it sounds like they were absolutely right in trying to protect you. You said that you could have more interaction with them if you wanted to.

So that gives me hope that they [01:13:00] are just waiting for you to reach out and say, Hey, can we try again? And if you're planning on separating, then I assume you don't have as much of an incentive to avoid the battle at home by being in touch with them. But. If it's going to take months or even years to reconnect and repair with them, I would definitely start that process now.

And that goes for anyone else in your life, extended, family, friends, colleagues, you might have to go through a phase where you guys talk about all of this, where you work through any conflicts or injuries that have resulted from pulling away like this. I wouldn't wait until you separate and then start doing that work.

First of all, I think that's going to send maybe not the best signal to these people, and B, it takes time. So I would do that work now. See how it plays out. Heal whatever you need to heal so that you have this love and support you need in place when you need it.

Jordan Harbinger: Dude, 100%. This is a version of digging the well before you get thirsty, emotionally thirsty.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally psycho, spiritually parched. That's

Jordan Harbinger: right before you get that cognitive cotton mouth. Exactly. I would also start making sure you're financially stable, especially since you don't control your assets. This is alarming [01:14:00] for me. So little thought experiment here. Imagine you get separated next week.

Picture the worst case scenario, right? She goes nuclear, she changes her bank password. She takes your name off the account, she drains the accounts and puts 'em somewhere else. You can't access your retirement, your brokerage. You can't go to an ATM. You don't have petty cash. What would you do? Think about that, then work backward.

Obviously, you need to talk to your attorney about how to do this in a legally compliant way. You don't want it to look like you're moving money around in a way that's not appropriate. But you might want to consider opening a personal bank account in your own name, quietly setting some money aside.

Opening a credit card in your own name, stuff like that. So you have some lifelines and a safety net. And if you're thinking like, oh my God, I can't alert her to this because she's going to get the mail. Go to the UPS store or whatever and get a box and have that stuff sent there. Because if you end up leaving the house, what your mail's going there now, like you should have an address where you can pick this stuff up.

Just stuff like that. So you got lifelines, you got a safety net. I would also start gathering every financial [01:15:00] record that you can. Tax returns, bank statements, mortgage documents, insurance policies, titles for the house and the car, stuff like that. Just sort of slowly gather that. Also related, make sure you have access to your passport, your social security card, all that good stuff.

Store copies of all that in Dropbox or Google or iCloud or somewhere secure that she cannot access an external hard drive. I mean, that's way less secure, but whatever. You want to have visibility into the marital finances before things become adversarial that way, you know, she can't go, oh, drain an account, and then say, oh, the joint brokerage, no, that never existed.

Or, you know, I don't, I don't know what you're talking about. Or, no, that was mine. That was never his, his name was never on there. Or just vastly understate her earnings or savings or property, or overstate her expenses or sticky with credit card bills, stuff like that. All that stuff happens when things get messy.

This is really crucial. Just like a victim of domestic abuse. Well, well, which you are. A [01:16:00] lot of your power and independence depends on your financial security. So that really, it has to be a priority.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm still thinking about his kids. They're probably going to be a big support for him. Maybe his only support for better or worse.

Despite what he said about sparing them from most of his and his wife's dysfunction.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I don't fully buy that, by the way. I just, I don't, sorry.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm not sure I do either. I mean, look, maybe they shielded them from most of it and you know, she attacks him. She doesn't attack the kids, whatever. And if so, that's great news, but there's no way you grow up in the same house with a mom like this.

You see how she treats your dad. You see how she's dealt with her own pain and you're not affected by it? I don't know. I know that he's acknowledging that. I'm just appreciating what a number she has probably done on their kids as well.

Jordan Harbinger: I'm struggling to understand how she could have been a good mother to them when she's like this.

But he did say her stuff is. Almost exclusively directed at him. She's been a good mom to the kids apparently.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I really, really hope That's true. But even if it is true, that's still awful for kids to witness. Yeah. Or even just like [01:17:00] sense in the house. Mom and dad are not okay. Something is not right here.

Jordan Harbinger: I have some strong feelings about the whole.

I vowed never to walk out on my kids the way my dad walked out on me thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I do too. I have to say

Jordan Harbinger: like, look, I appreciate where he is coming from. This is a big reason he stayed. That was obviously a huge wound for him. He doesn't want to recreate it with his own kids.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. But that didn't prevent all the damage from being done.

The problem was getting married to her in the first place, not divorcing her when he realized things were this bad.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. And how much more pain and chaos did he subject himself and his kids do by staying? I understand the logic. Okay. I just, I don't want, he's saying I don't want to do to my kids what my dad did to me, but I don't understand how it holds up when you really consider the consequences.

There's no perfect outcome when you break up a family. But sometimes staying together really is worse for everyone involved and that has to be true in this case.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, you know, that's up to him to decide, and I understand that he doesn't want us to like therapize him too much, but I have to imagine that not growing up with a father.

Yeah. That informed this [01:18:00] decision to stick around. But I think it also must have played some kind of role in why he ended up with this particular wife. Why he struggles to stand up to her and protect himself.

Jordan Harbinger: A hundred percent, man. When he shared that my heart broke a little, this is his trauma. It sounds like unaddressed.

And when this stuff goes unaddressed, it can lead you to some pretty dangerous situations.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He knows he's in this situation because he refused to leave, but then he said that wasn't still is worth it. And I guess I'm with you. I'm just, I'm not entirely sure about that.

Jordan Harbinger: I'd love to ask him that question again in six months or a year, five years.

Yeah. See if it's still true. Totally. Maybe it is for him. Or maybe when he is out, he sees what he's been through, he'd be like, I cannot believe I stuck around. That's my bet.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I guess it depends on how wed he is to the idea of keeping the family together at all costs. But anyway, my point in bringing up the kids was just.

Now that they're adults, I would maybe think about having some very open conversations with them about what the last 20 years have been like. You know, give them space to talk about mom and to talk about her honestly, and share what their childhood [01:19:00] was like and how they're feeling these days, what they make of all of this.

If they have any thoughts or feelings about her or the marriage even about you, our friend here, which is hard to bear, I know, but might be very liberating and healing for them to be able to share with you. So one thing you can do to set yourself up well for life after separation is really make sure that you and your kids are in a good place.

Make it safe for them to talk to you about what this has been like, because it sounds like they're going to be very important people to you when you go through this transition. They can't be the only people and there are certain things that you probably should not bring to your kids while you go through a divorce.

Starting these conversations could be a game changer for all of you. I think it could also really help you guys stay close through all of this, and you guys all deserve that.

Jordan Harbinger: Totally agree. Gabe, the last thing I want to say is, as you can tell, we both feel that you've co-created this situation and enabled your wife in various ways, and I know you know that, but no one deserves to go through what you've been through.

Maybe the most difficult detail you've shared with us in some ways is the threats to commit suicide, to get you to do what she [01:20:00] wants. I just, I find that incredibly disturbing. It's incredibly unfair, and I genuinely worry about the impact that this has had on you. If she does that, again, it sounds like it might be ongoing, I would really encourage you to take a beat and consider if you really want to play along, and I would encourage you to look into other responses, crisis lines, emergency services, mental health professionals, or nothing, and just see what happens.

I know that sounds terrible, but I would not give in and play along again. Also, dark Jordan peeking out. She does end up in an ER or the police do a wellness check and she gets put on an involuntary hold, or she has to enter a facility or something that could become useful in divorce proceedings. I'm not telling you to do any of these in order to screw her over, not explicitly anyway.

If she's saying, I'm going to kill myself if you don't stay home more or whatever, and you're like, okay, I hear you, that you intend to hurt yourself. I'm calling 9 1 1. And there if there are consequences attached to that, that is on her dude, she said it. She's doing this to herself. But my main point is I would start [01:21:00] asserting yourself appropriately here and start looking for small ways to release these roles your wife has put you in, especially this one of keeping her alive and keeping her stable.

It must be exhausting and beyond stressful to maintain, and that's going to have to end eventually. You might as well start taking steps towards that. Now, separating is not going to be easy, but it is going to be life changing, liberating, clarifying, monumental. I am genuinely excited for you, so take good care of yourself, man.

Start putting bricks in this wall, sending you a big hug, and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out Benn Jordan and our Skeptical Sunday on water filters. If you haven't done so yet, the best things that have happened in my life in business have come through my network. It's the circle of people I know, like, and trust.

I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our Six Minute Networking course. The course is free. It's not gross, it's not schmoozy. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at Sixminutenetworking.com drills. Take a few minutes a day. Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks, build relationships before you need them.

You can find it all for free at sixminutenetworking.com. [01:22:00] Show notes and transcripts are on the website, advertisers discounts, ways to support the show all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram, Gabriel Mizrahi.

This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show.

Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: One day, the encryption protecting your bank account, medical records and

Jordan Harbinger: private messages will simply stop working, not because of a hack, but because computers get smart enough to break it instantly. The scary part that day is already being planned for and your data may already be saved for later.

JHS Trailer: Quantum [01:23:00] computers actually are real step in evolution in the way that everybody knows about a binary state, zeros and ones on and off. Well, that was and is the technology for the classic computers. Today, we've improved technologically much faster than we have been able to, as a society come up with ways to prevent the harm.

Quantum computers can lead to what's called Q Day, or I prefer to call it digital disaster day D-Day two, because that's the day when all the digital secrets that the normal computers can't crack through encryption are going to be cracked by quantum computers and that. Is really what gets people's attention.

Combine that with AI and boy, we've really got a one-two punch that can make humanity take these giant technological leaps that we had no idea could possibly happen. And that's one of the big fears, is AI that a lot of people are worried about now. Quantum's coming [01:24:00] around the corner, it makes it even twice as scary.

It's a huge mixed bag of possibilities for everybody that are great and also danger, you know, terminator level existential problems. All the doomsday preppers actually are onto something. If this does happen in the next few years, we're really going to be in big trouble. That's why I'm sort of an evangelist out there trying to speak on it and let people know this is a major problem.

We can't just stick our head in the sand.

Jordan Harbinger: To hear from quantum expert John Young on what Q Day is, why it matters now, and what happens when our digital security hits its expiration date, check out episode 1261 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.