983: Bro’s Obsessed with Goats: What’s the Antidote? | Feedback Friday

983: Bro's Obsessed with Goats: What's the Antidote? | Feedback Friday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback. Friday producer, the scoop of guacamole getting stuck to the lid of this burrito, bowl of life conundrum. Gabriel Mizrahi. And it always gets stuck to the lid, doesn't it? It does. And then you gotta like lick it off or scrape it off.

[00:00:20] Are you, do you scrape it off or do you just lick it right off the lid?

[00:00:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Um, it depends who's watching. I would say, you know, okay. If someone's staring at me, I just, I look, I'm dead in the eye and lick that room temperature, slightly brown guac right off the lid. I, I thought it would be

[00:00:36] Jordan Harbinger: the reverse, like if someone's watching that, uh, yeah, I use my fork, but, uh, not at this phase of my life.

[00:00:40] No. You know, one day I hope I'm just so wealthy that I'm like, you know what? I'm leaving that guac right on the lid. I'm just not even gonna look at it again. That is a level

[00:00:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: of wealth I can't even imagine aspiring

[00:00:53] Jordan Harbinger: to. Yeah. It's just, you're just throwing money off the boat like Leonardo DiCaprio at that point.

[00:00:58] God, but the dating scene in LA sounds wild these days. Is that what dating is in la You're just, someone's looking at you and you're like, hold on, let me look that guac right off that lid. Look at how much, yeah, actually the real flex would be what I just suggested, which is just put that lid down where they can see the guac stuck to it, and you just disregard.

[00:01:14] You're like, that guy is rich. It's a very niche

[00:01:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: way to flex on people.

[00:01:18] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, sure. That guy's loaded. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

[00:01:30] Our mission. It's to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from economic hitman, gold smuggler, hostage negotiator, astronaut, tech luminary, and music mogul. This week we had bare knuckle boxer, Bobby Gunn.

[00:01:46] Really fascinating story. Uh, Irish Traveler who became a bare knuckle boxing champion, was fighting drunk guys in parking lots at age 11. I mean, I wasn't raised like that, so, uh, wild Tales did ensue and we also did an out of the loop episode on Israel versus Iran. What is going on? What's with the drones going one way and the missiles going the other way?

[00:02:05] Is this gonna continue? What the heck is going on over there? Out of the loop? So catch that episode and Bobby Gunn, if you haven't done so yet. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, and get. The grossest details about the Santa Monica Chipotle centric dating scene. Mm-Hmm.

[00:02:20] Before we jump into the letters today, I do wanna share something. This is a little nugget from James Clear. He is the author of Atomic Habits and he is a guest on the show, episode 1 0 8. In James View, there are four qualities of a great career. One, I enjoy it. Two, I'm good at it. Three, I make good money.

[00:02:37] And four, I'm around fascinating people. So his advice, and I'm paraphrasing here, is to ask yourself questions that get at those qualities. And the best way to do that is probably in reverse order. So one, where are fascinating people? Two, in what ways can I make money with them, having to do with them, whatever, three, which ones am I good at?

[00:02:59] And four, which ones do I actually enjoy? And so if I'm applying this just off the cuff here to my podcasting career, where are fascinating people, well, I'm reading books and I'm finding these people who write these books are so interesting, but I have no access to them. Okay. Well. How can I make money for them?

[00:03:16] That wasn't the first question that I asked myself. Of course, but how can I make money with them? What if I could figure out a way to make authors more accessible? That was kind of like one of my first thoughts. Remember, I've been podcasting for 17 years. There weren't a bunch of people interviewing authors.

[00:03:28] This was like not really a thing. I just started it years and years ago. There were interviews with authors, but they were in like Marie Claire, right? You had to like wait for Red Book to come out and borrow it and see if they interviewed anyone. Interesting. Or Esquire. Which ones am I good at? I was good.

[00:03:42] It turned out at talking to authors after prepping the book a little bit and getting good nuggets of information about that material, I. In a way that people could apply that turned out to be something I was good at and which ones do I enjoy? Yeah, that happened to be something that I really, really liked teaching people, things that I'd found out from smart, fascinating people, some of which they had put in their books.

[00:04:02] And so this naturally lent itself to broadcasting. Now, I was interested in, in teaching, but I found that of course I could access more people using a microphone and the internet. And you know, here we are. So I highly recommend that y'all, if you're in the a phase of looking at what you wanna do with yourself in your life, in your career, ask yourself these questions.

[00:04:24] Where are fascinating people? In what ways can I make money with them? Which ones am I good at? Which ones do I enjoy? Ask yourself these questions and start noodling around on that because that is, I will say, I'm very satisfied with what I do for a living. And I don't know if most people are really, I think you stumble into a career or a job and you just kind of stay there.

[00:04:43] A lot of folks because of momentum and sunk cost, and that is not ideal. That's not ideal. Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

[00:04:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, my older brother, who's 22 years old, is obsessed with goats. Okay. And when I say obsessed, that's an understatement. Four years ago, my family had two pet goats that we had to give away when we moved houses.

[00:05:08] They were named Billy Goat and Motor Goat, and the obsession began a bit after we moved

[00:05:15] Jordan Harbinger: Motor Goat. It's pretty good. So it is interesting. This is obviously a feedback Friday first. I don't think we've ever heard of anybody, I've never heard of this before. Somebody being obsessed with goats.

[00:05:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: We had one goat related question a couple years back from the young guy whose parents kept moving them around the country, and his mom, they had just moved into a new home and then his mom started having a fit because she had to look out the, she was looking out the kitchen window and it looked onto the neighbor's goats, and he was afraid that she was gonna use that as a reason to move them again.

[00:05:43] Do you remember that?

[00:05:44] Jordan Harbinger: Mm, yeah, I do. But it seems like a real petty, I mean, yeah, I remember that. Yeah.

[00:05:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: Odd. Yeah. So not our first goat related drama. No, but our first goat obsession story for sure. So she goes on, it started off with him just talking about them and saying their names randomly in conversation.

[00:06:01] But over the past year, the obsession has developed a dangerous amount. We can no longer have a conversation without him throwing in a Billy goat or motor goat. And it's really starting to cause some tension in our relationship. He also writes songs about them. The most recent being All I want for Christmas is Motor Goat.

[00:06:21] Okay. Which he goes around singing under his breath sometimes.

[00:06:25] Jordan Harbinger: This is weird. I mean, it's kind of funny, but it's also just like, this is bizarre behavior. This is not mentally healthy and also kind

[00:06:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: of sad. I can't tell if he's Yeah. In on the joke of it or you know, is he just being quirky or is he legitimately mourning these goats He loved,

[00:06:40] Jordan Harbinger: something's definitely going on here that's not super healthy.

[00:06:43] Yeah. Carry on.

[00:06:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: And he sends constant text messages to our family members saying the goat's names along with pictures of the goats and even voice memos going ba. Oh my God. Okay. This family's group chat. Must

[00:06:58] Jordan Harbinger: be insane. Just imagining getting 19 while you're at the gym. Meanwhile, you're back channeling with your parents like Luke needs therapy, therapy or just maybe a new goat or goat therapy.

[00:07:10] It sounds like something you'd be into Gabe. Uh, no, I don't think so.

[00:07:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm good. Thank you. Anyway, I draw the line at goat yoga. I don't need to also do goat mental health. Oh my God. So she goes on. All of this is starting to annoy me. Yeah. Extremely. So annoying. And my siblings and parents feel the same.

[00:07:29] We're worried about him. We've all talked him about this and he just laughs it off. But it's starting to strain our relationships with him. I'm also worried about his relationships with other people, particularly girls.

[00:07:40] Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah. If this guy is going around your town. In public and playing All I want for Christmas is motor goat at the local cafe.

[00:07:50] He's, he's the goat kid. And and it's also like, clearly this is like he's mentally unwell. Something is going on.

[00:07:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I'm worried about you. You get a rep because of this. Right. Also like Yeah. The dating thing is interesting.

[00:08:03] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-Hmm.

[00:08:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Every photo of him on Tinder is just him with various goats. All the photo captions are goat puns.

[00:08:08] I mean, that actually might just work on

[00:08:11] Jordan Harbinger: dating apps because it might, it's a thing that's not like, here's a gym selfie and another gym selfie in my car.

[00:08:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Better than listing brunch is one of your simple pleasures. Yeah, I guess.

[00:08:20] Jordan Harbinger: But you gotta be in on the joke. If you're unironically posting goat photos on Tinder and singing about goats on first dates under your breath, it's not cute.

[00:08:27] It's, I don't wanna say like plausible psychopath 'cause that's sort of thrown around there, but let's just say it's. A a, a, a news. Oh man.

[00:08:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: I was wondering, I was wondering who was gonna make the next goat? Pun me. It was me. Okay. Like, man, whatever floats your goat. All right. Ah, you had to jump in. So she wraps up, how is he gonna find a girlfriend who doesn't think he's crazy for being obsessed with goats?

[00:08:50] Yeah. Not. And how can I help rid him of this obsession so I can get my normal brother back signed? Had enough and wondering if I should get tough. About this Billy goat gruff.

[00:09:01] Jordan Harbinger: This is such a weird situation. Obviously we're having a laugh about this, but I I do think there's something deeper going on here, Gabe.

[00:09:07] I for sure, a part of me is like your normal brother back. Was he always normal before the whole goat thing? I feel like people aren't totally normal and then they get absolutely obsessed with a specific animal. So it's like, okay, was he a little quirky before? And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but this kind of behavior.

[00:09:24] Yeah, I would expect this from a literal child or somebody with a developmental issue of some kind. It's curious. So to answer your question, how's he gonna find a girlfriend when he is like this? I mean, he's not, unless he finds a woman who's really obsessed with goats too. But that's not normal. This is not normal.

[00:09:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: But those girls are probably out there, right? I mean, does Tinder have a livestock setting?

[00:09:44] Jordan Harbinger: I dunno. I think that's illegal in the United States. I don't know. He might have, he might have better luck on like farmers only, or some subreddit about goats. You gotta go really niche with this one. Or he has to find a girl who's super quirky and has a weird sense of humor.

[00:09:58] Finds it all charming. But I'm almost like he's not doing it to be charming probably. So it's also still gonna get old. But again, this is also gonna require your brother to have other good qualities, which I hope he does have. But the most important one is gonna be a sense of humor, a little irony, hopefully a decent dose of self-awareness.

[00:10:16] And I'm just, I'm not sold.

[00:10:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. I mean, if he did have those qualities, he

[00:10:20] Jordan Harbinger: probably wouldn't be going around singing about goats all the time. Right? It's, this feels like one of those weird interviews they used to do on Dr. Phil, or like Maury Povich before he got obsessed with, you're not the father.

[00:10:30] Mm-Hmm. Where they'd bring somebody with a super bizarre phobia, like someone who's afraid of cotton balls, right? And they just roll out a cart full of cotton balls and the person like, ah. And they're standing up on the chair and it's like, we're giving you therapy, we're healing you. I can imagine that.

[00:10:43] But with this guy in goats, and it's like an intervention to stop the goat thing. And it's like, right. Yeah. It's just so cringe. But that's an understatement. And the

[00:10:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Chiron at the bottom of the screen reads Help. I've got it. Bad

[00:10:55] Jordan Harbinger: for goat. Yes. Help. I've got it bad for goats on the next Maury. Okay. But for real, the goat thing is gonna be tough in the dating world, but that's just one aspect of the bigger question, which is what is going on with your brother.

[00:11:08] Yeah. I think you gotta talk to him. I know you said you did, but instead of making this conversation about how he needs to stop, I think you need to go back and ask him how he feels about these goats, why they continue to occupy so much of his attention, why he wants to talk and sing and think about them so much.

[00:11:24] I would almost treat it like. You're asking him about a friend who moved away, or a friend who died, be that curious and compassionate about it, because to him, I, it seems like he does, it feels that way or something. Mm-Hmm. I mean, this is so weird and I realize how absurd this conversation is. It might be hard to ask him these questions with a straight face and also, while not getting angry that he's derailed every family chat for the last two years.

[00:11:49] But you gotta tap into some genuine empathy and try to appreciate why your brother's got it. So, I'm just gonna say bad. Oh no, I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. Don't do it for goats bad. Yeah, we were gonna

[00:11:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: say that. Yeah.

[00:12:01] Jordan Harbinger: Obviously don't make any goat puns when you talk. I can't. I mean, I guess we can't stop.

[00:12:05] But look, he might've just stumbled onto a weird bit here and he is doing the joke to death because he finds it funnier the more he does it, which I, I think is kind of annoying, but like, okay, maybe some people are into that. We're kind of doing it right now, but I have, I have a feeling he really loved the goats and he is like traumatized that he can't see them anymore and he misses them so much.

[00:12:24] It's been four years. This is definitely not normal. If he was doing this about somebody who passed away, like a good friend who died four years later, I would still say this is odd behavior talking about it. So, so he's probably mourning them in some way and these weird songs and these just dumb voice notes.

[00:12:44] Their expressions of how much he misses them, which this is not a normal way to express these things. Maybe it's a way to stay connected to them or a way to keep them alive for himself. But this is like, you gotta see a therapist about this kind of stuff. This is abnormal.

[00:12:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think you're right. I also wonder if this ongoing bit contains some other message.

[00:13:01] What do you mean? Well, I mean, look, let's remember they gave away the goats when they moved houses, right? Mm-Hmm. So those are two big changes right there. Possibly two big losses. I mean, for some people those could even be traumas, right? Mm-Hmm. He named them Billy goat and motor Goat, which is really cute.

[00:13:17] Uh, it's funny. But that tells me that he had a real relationship with these goats. They weren't just random animals that they would feed a couple times a day or whatever.

[00:13:24] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-Hmm.

[00:13:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: She said that his obsession began a bit after they moved. So yes, all of this could be an expression of his love, of his grief, but I wonder if the song and the voice notes come along with some kind of coded message and that message might be.

[00:13:39] You took my goats away from me and I'm still really upset about it. And I want you to know that.

[00:13:44] Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. So like, he's doing this bit with his family, but what he's really saying is, you hurt me. I'm, I'm sad, I'm Mm-Hmm. I'm sad. Don't do it.

[00:13:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I'm sad. I'm sad. I want you to notice that, acknowledge that I want, I want someone to talk to me about it. I want maybe even, I want you to apologize or, Mm-Hmm. I just need a little love. I mean, it could be any number of messages or it could be a few different ones. Obviously we don't really know what's going through your brother's head right now.

[00:14:12] I'm not even sure that he knows. But it is interesting. Humor functions in so many different ways, and obviously art functions in all these ways. Your brother is on some level making art and humor out of this loss. So, yes, it seems silly and trivial, but I'm with Jordan. I think it might actually be something very profound for him.

[00:14:30] That's another thing you could explore with your brother when you talk.

[00:14:33] Jordan Harbinger: Good point, Gabe. 'cause there's what he's saying and there's why he's saying it. I mean, you don't blow up the family group chat with voice notes going blah, throughout the day for no reason. It just, it's like this weird, passive, aggressive way of achieving something almost.

[00:14:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right? It's like the stupidity of the bit almost highlights the message beneath the message, right? Mm-Hmm. Because it's so unvarnished,

[00:14:54] Jordan Harbinger: I guess. I mean, now you're getting into like something you need an ma in fine arts to appreciate. But maybe you need to be a screenwriter in Hollywood to fully wrap your mind out of this.

[00:15:02] But that's how you can help your brother the most right now. Invite him to talk, listen, help him explore all this and, and meet him with curiosity and non-judgment. My hope is that as he comes to understand what's driving this goat thing, the obsession will subside a little bit and your quote unquote normal brother will come back.

[00:15:19] And if you make a little progress. Maybe you work up to saying something like, look, I know this goat thing is funny to you, but I also want you to know how it comes across to other people, how it's starting to strain our relationships. But again, I'd move slowly. Start with him, then you can talk about you and your parents and the fact that this might keep him single for the rest of his life.

[00:15:38] That that can come up after all that, because this is not gonna help him at all. And if all else fails, you know what we're about to say. Um, farmers only discount code. Jordan, I wish farmers only throw us some bucks and get at us. You can sponsor the show, but no, I was gonna say therapy like I mentioned above.

[00:15:54] Right? Better help. Not too. I'm sure there's a lot for this guy to talk about. And he seems to lack self-awareness to a, a, just a critical failure of self-awareness. So he needs somebody who can help him work on that. I think she already knows that. I'm sorry, your brother lost his goats. I'm sorry he's still going through it, but mostly I'm sorry that your letter inspired us to make so many bad goat puns.

[00:16:16] You're welcome for not saying bad like that again, by the way. Good luck. And Gabe, you know what? This question by the way reminds me of, Hmm. Winner.

[00:16:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Winner. It really whips the llama Zs. Oh wow. Yeah. That took me right back to 1998. But alamas also make that sound so llama sheep and goats make kind of the same sound.

[00:16:37] I don't know. I've never. Interacted with the llama to be honest. Yeah, but Winamp I interacted with a lot. Yes. Winamp, Winamp, Winamp, Winamp. It really whips the llama's ass.

[00:16:47] Jordan Harbinger: That's so nostalgic. Never found out what that ever meant either. That was no, no one knows never a thing. You know what else you're gonna want to feed twice a day?

[00:16:55] Your addiction to the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:17:03] This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help Ever Feel like Building a Social Life is more of a battery drainer than a charger. I think I'm right up there with you. I know it seems like I'm an extrovert, but honestly, sometimes it's just like I gotta go in my room and play video games. Better Help could be your Go-to, for flipping that script.

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[00:18:04] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by the Commercial Break Podcast. Have you ever wondered why somebody would date a ghost or why some people get married to cats? Have you ever thought to yourself, I should learn to speak a Martian language? Or, why do television preachers have such expensive jets?

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[00:19:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, a few weeks ago, my husband was invited to his uncle's house to play cards with some of his cousins.

[00:19:20] I was also invited to come with our kids, so we joined him to hang out with the family. During the game, my husband got up from the table and asked if I wanted to play for him because he needed a break. I've never played cards like this before and thought, why not try? I had a lot of fun socializing with my husband's family.

[00:19:37] I actually ended up being pretty good and walked away with some money. I was invited back to play the next few weekends. The next weekend was the same as the group settled in. At the table, though I heard two cousins talking and looking at me. I asked them what was up and they showed me a message from their group chat.

[00:19:55] The group chat was asking who was playing that night. My husband responded that he and I would be in attendance. One of the older cousins immediately wrote back, I thought this was gonna be a guy, cousin thing. But, uh, things have evolved. I don't know if I'll make it out tonight, but I'll try. El Lao. Oh, side note.

[00:20:13] George. I never know how to pronounce. Is it El MAOO or Lama?

[00:20:17] Jordan Harbinger: Well, it's stupid is what it is. This is a child's response to something that makes them uncomfortable. I mean, I would go with Ella Mayo. I don't know. I mean, it's not something you say out loud. Ella Mayo. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's, I hate this guy, but continue.

[00:20:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: So she goes on, the two cousins were confused saying they didn't see me being there as an issue and brushed it off because quote unquote, it's just how he is. When the game started, I asked my husband why he didn't mention the group chat convo, and he said, oh yeah, it's whatever, you know how he is.

[00:20:47] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-Hmm.

[00:20:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: As the night went on, that cousin ended up coming. He went around the table saying hello to everyone. Said a couple of things, and then Irish goodbye. After he left, the mood shifted. People who are usually loud and talkative were silent and stone faced. I continued to play well, and people just seemed mad about it.

[00:21:06] Then it dawned on me, I'm the only woman here. It was like an out-of-body experience. Suddenly realizing you're different from everyone and it isn't being received well, is an awful feeling. Mm. I felt so unwelcome, so small, like I was 10 years old trying to play with the boys and being shunned for it. I felt myself starting to cry, so I went to the bathroom.

[00:21:27] I tried to talk myself out of the feelings, tried to tell myself that they're clearly pissed because they're losing to a girl and that's their problem, not mine, that I shouldn't water myself down for anyone, especially if I'm good at something. But when I went downstairs, the mood had swung back in the other direction and everyone was having a good time and laughing.

[00:21:45] So I let my husband know I was taking the kids home and asked him to get a ride from someone I. Since then, I've been torn between wanting to stand up for myself and thinking that maybe I should know my place and step back from hanging with the guys. I so badly want to take it on the chin and continue being myself, but my strongest impulse is to curl up into a tiny ball and blend into the background.

[00:22:06] Mm. My whole life is making myself as small as possible so as not to inconvenience anyone else. I thought I had found a place where I could unapologetically be myself, just like everyone else in this family, but I'm starting to think I got too comfortable. I never once doubted my place. In my husband's family, I get along with everyone very well.

[00:22:26] In fact, I feel more comfortable at their gatherings than at my own family's. So hearing this threw me for a loop, and I just felt sad. Also, I'm kind of upset with my husband for not saying anything in the group chat that's left me feeling very alone, like my husband doesn't have my back. Am I taking this too personally?

[00:22:45] Why am I having such a strong reaction to a relatively minor occurrence? Why didn't my husband come to my defense and how do I carry myself with my husband's family from here on out signed ready to fold because the dudes in this family are cold.

[00:22:59] Jordan Harbinger: Interesting question. I can see why this was disappointing, kind of hurtful, the feeling you're describing of being unwelcome, unwanted, inconvenient, the odd man out of the odd woman out as the case may be.

[00:23:11] That's definitely tough and I'm sorry that they made you feel that way. So first of all, this sounds like a guy's poker night. And guy's poker night probably has its own vibe, its own politics at play. This group clearly wants a certain kind of evening. They have certain preferences and you sort of change the dynamic and look whether that's silly or petty or necessary.

[00:23:32] It is what it is. It's a guy's poker night. If you had a standing weekly wine and painting party with your girlfriends and one of their husbands started showing up, like if the cousin were one of your friend's husbands and he started rolling up painting masterpieces and talking about sports instead of, I don't know, bridgeton or whatever, you'd probably be like, I thought this was just a ladies' night.

[00:23:50] Now, I'm not saying these are the same thing, or that you're as annoying and rude as this cousin is. I highly doubt that's the case, or that even that these two hobbies are equivalent, but there are different spaces for different groups for a reason, and it's possible that these guys want one kind of evening, and now it's becoming a different kind of evening, and whether that's fair or unfair, that's just how it is for some of these guys, not all of 'em, because let's remember, they did invite you to play in the first place, which is kind of part of what's so strange about all this, right?

[00:24:19] So no, you're not taking this too personally because it did happen to you personally. It sounds like these guys are not the most welcoming, they're not the most gracious, and yeah, losing to you that probably added insult to injury. These guys sound kind of petty and annoying to be honest, but obviously we don't have the full story, nor do we know what's going on for them at the same time, how they feel about you being there.

[00:24:43] Whether this is about having a woman in the group or having you there specifically that says at least as much about them, so that makes it not entirely about you. And from that angle, you might be taking this a little more personally than you have to now about your husband not coming to your defense.

[00:25:00] Again, I'm of two minds here. On the one hand, yeah, it would be nice if he said, chill guys. It's my wife. She's good at poker. Get used to it. On the other hand, maybe he also kind of wants it to just be the fellows, and I'm not sure that's entirely unfair. He might also be giving into social pressure here a little bit.

[00:25:15] It might not be that he doesn't love you and he doesn't wanna defend you. It might just be that he doesn't wanna create drama in the group chat. So this is a conversation with him. Honestly, if I had one loser ass cousin who's a grown man who's like 40 and still lives with his parents or doesn't like or respect women, I've already given up on this yets.

[00:25:34] Okay? I am not gonna try and change his personality on WhatsApp. The dude's already a man child from the sound of it. Why am I gonna waste my time and get everyone riled up giving him a talking to, I'm just not gonna do it.

[00:25:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right? Yeah. That's clearly what he meant by, you know how he is. Yeah, right? He's saying, this guy's a lost cause.

[00:25:50] I don't feel like dealing with him and trying to teach him how to be a decent person, but actually. The most interesting thing to me about this letter isn't whether she belongs at this poker game, it's actually how all of this is hurting her so profoundly.

[00:26:03] Jordan Harbinger: Well, to her credit, she's already onto that, right?

[00:26:05] She's going, yes. Why am I having such a strong reaction to a relatively minor occurrence?

[00:26:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Which is such a great question, especially when you have a, a very strong response to something that seems otherwise kind of insignificant. Mm-Hmm. Now we do have a few clues. One is that she was the only woman there, so she felt different.

[00:26:22] Mm-Hmm. She felt that she wasn't wanted. I do wonder whether she leapt at that explanation because it was the most obvious one. You know, maybe it's like that's the most glaring difference between her and these people. But it could have also just been that they are not being very nice, or there just isn't good chemistry in this group.

[00:26:38] But either way, apparently that feeling goes back to at least 10 years old. Which is an awful feeling and I get why that hurt. Mm-Hmm. But I think this might even go deeper than that. Like she said, her strongest impulse is to curl up into a tiny ball and blend into the background,

[00:26:51] Jordan Harbinger: right. Her, her whole life is making herself as small as possible so as not to inconvenience anyone else.

[00:26:57] That really jumped out at me too.

[00:26:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: So clearly this is a sort of pattern for her. This is how she moves through the world, generally speaking, and we don't know how that behavior developed, but it almost certainly goes back to childhood and it has probably been reinforced by many, many experiences since then.

[00:27:12] So I think this whole poker thing hurts on two levels. One, it might confirm to her that she really should be a wallflower. She should be small, she should stay in the background, which sucks and it probably hurts because she tried something very different at this poker game, which by the way is so hard to do and it's also so admirable.

[00:27:30] She jumped in. She played for her husband. She did well. She owned her skill. She came back again. She felt like she belonged and the message she got back from some of these guys, and I think that's important. It's not all of them, but some of them, or at least the message that she heard from them was, nah, we don't like that.

[00:27:48] We don't like you. You are too much. Hmm.

[00:27:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. The rejection. It kind of hit her in the jugular. I think that's, yeah. It's a tender spot.

[00:27:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It probably hit her right in the wound that the impulse to make herself very small is designed to protect.

[00:28:01] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. It kind of broke my heart when she said that she thought she'd found a place where she could unapologetically be herself.

[00:28:06] I mean, we all need a place like that. Yeah. But then she's like, oh, got too comfortable and Right. I'm not sure. The problem is that she got too comfortable. It sounds like she was having a ball and taking up some space, which I think is tremendous. It's just that they weren't comfortable with her.

[00:28:19] Partially because this dude decided to make a big deal out of it.

[00:28:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. But she also said something else very meaningful, which is, I feel more comfortable at their gatherings than at my own family's. Mm mm-Hmm. So that tells us two more important things. One, that she's maybe not particularly close to her own family.

[00:28:36] Maybe she was the black sheep. Or if they have their own issues. That's probably also, by the way, a clue to where the impulse to make herself as smallest as possible began. Mm-Hmm. Second, that feeling at home in her husband's family is really significant to her. So being shunned by them or being mocked by them, again, it's kind of a double wound.

[00:28:54] If she can't be with her family and now she feels like she can't be in his family.

[00:28:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So like what family does she get to belong to? Who really loves her at all.

[00:29:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. Which probably also explains why her husband not standing up for her in the group chat bothered her so much. Right. Like who is on my side here for God's sake.

[00:29:10] Totally. And I get that feeling like you belong and then finding out, oh actually secretly everybody doesn't while you're here. Right. That sucks.

[00:29:18] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-Hmm.

[00:29:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: And depending on your personal history, it can be devastating. So where I'm landing on all of this is I love that you showed up to this poker game. I love that you rocked it, that you felt at home.

[00:29:29] I think that was super important for you to do. The really great news here is you know that you have that desire in you and you know that you have that ability to not just shrink away and be in the background. You can hang and you can hang with the boys at the same time. I'm not totally sure if this is your poker game, if these guys are annoying, if they're kind of petty, if some of them are unkind or even if they're not, but they just want a certain kind of evening and that doesn't include you, ultimately, that's okay.

[00:29:59] And I really do think that that says much, much more about them than it does about you. Ultimately, you, you don't wanna push on a pull door, right? If they don't wanna hang f that noise, maybe you just gotta let them have this one. But my strong advice to you, which I'm actually very excited to share, is that you should follow this desire to be part of a community and to take up space and to be big, and to be good at a game and to have fun.

[00:30:21] I would follow that desire to a group that does think you're awesome, that does want you there, you deserve that, and now you know that you're capable of it.

[00:30:28] Jordan Harbinger: Gabe, the story is, is kind of pissing me off actually. 'cause even if this is a guy's night, it still sucks that they're signaling to her that she's not welcome.

[00:30:35] I mean, she's part of their family. Mm-Hmm. You just don't treat family members like this. I've been in her shoes before. Right? It sucks. But I wouldn't extrapolate from this poker night to know how your husband's family feels about you in general. I think it's very possible. Mm-Hmm. That they still like you and they love you and they want you around.

[00:30:52] And this is the piece of your reaction that you really have to sit with and unpack to notice the story that you're telling about. You know, what all this means and your status in the family because yeah, your cousin's a dick and maybe they weren't the most gracious. But you might also be drawing some conclusions based on your conditioning, your assumptions that are just not necessarily accurate.

[00:31:10] So keep being kind, keep being loving, and make sure you take stock of all the ways your husband's family treats you well too. Because I really do think I. This poker night, it might be a special case sending you a hug and wishing you all the best you can. Reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise.

[00:31:27] Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a lot easier. If you're being stalked by your father, your boyfriend's been putting off, moving in together because he's secretly been cheating, or you're wondering whether to adopt your troubled sister-in-law's, baby, whatever's got you staying up at night lately.

[00:31:40] Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:31:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, next up. Hey guys, I'm a male, firefighter and paramedic and about four years ago I responded to a child who I watched Bleed to Death at school. Those images have stuck with me and have affected my mental health in ways that I never imagined.

[00:32:04] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, yeah, that's really intense, and I'm sorry that you saw that a big part of your job. By the way, fir so many first responders people deal with trauma and it's so crucial that they have the right support in place to work through it so it doesn't develop into PTSD. Man. I'm sorry to hear about all this.

[00:32:19] You gotta wonder what causes a child to bleed to death during school. Like what happened? Geez. Something

[00:32:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: terrible, obviously. So he goes on like most struggling firefighters, I turned to alcohol. Oh man. Oh man. Then late last year, I was arrested for being drunk in public indecent exposure and carrying a switchblade knife while I admitted to drinking and carrying the switchblade knife is indisputable.

[00:32:45] I don't agree with the indecent exposure charge. The story that a witness is telling is different from the truth that I remember. This person also has a criminal record, though I'm not aware of the details.

[00:32:57] Jordan Harbinger: So Gabe, I, I'm just reading between the lines here. I'm guessing he got really drunk, peed in an alley or something like that, and a cop rolled by and saw him, or somebody was like, he pulled his penis out in front of me.

[00:33:07] And it's like, uh, well is that really the whole story?

[00:33:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's kind of the picture I'm getting to and maybe that's why he disputes the indecent exposure charge because he's like, I wasn't indecently exposing myself, I was just ping and buying a dumpster.

[00:33:20] Jordan Harbinger: Right. But you can sometimes get charged with that, especially if you're three sheets to the wind and you're being sloppy.

[00:33:25] So, okay. We don't know for sure. Maybe he didn't whip it out at all. And apologies to our friend here if we're getting this part wrong, but he's being a tiny bit vague, so I want to get a clear sense of, of what happened.

[00:33:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, his vagueness might be part of the story to some degree, so let's come back to that.

[00:33:39] He goes on. I've taken the steps to right my wrongs. I've attended AA meetings and have remained sober since the incident I owned up to my mistakes.

[00:33:47] Jordan Harbinger: Well, good on you. I'm glad you're sober. That's terrific. That's the bedrock of coming back from something like this, and probably why it had to happen, I'd argue,

[00:33:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: but the department feels that I'm being dishonest.

[00:33:59] They intend to dismiss me, and I'm scheduling a skelly hearing. So for anyone who doesn't know, a Skelly hearing is a pre-disciplinary hearing where public employees are. Basically they're given notice of the allegations against them and then they have the opportunity to respond. So they can say, no, this, these allegations are not true.

[00:34:18] Or they can say, I would propose that we have this alternative remedy or this other discipline not being fired.

[00:34:25] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Sort of due process for public employees. Right. Exactly.

[00:34:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: So he

[00:34:29] Jordan Harbinger: goes

[00:34:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: on. The unfortunate part is that I was not aware of the charges brought against me until the department interviewed me as part of the investigation.

[00:34:38] I also didn't notify the department right away as charges have never been filed to this day. Okay. So again, I'm just gonna jump in. This is a tiny bit confusing. I just wanna clarify. He's saying he wasn't aware of the charges until his department interviewed him, but then he's saying that charges were never filed.

[00:34:53] So I think what he means is,

[00:34:54] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-Hmm.

[00:34:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: There are these disciplinary charges brought by the department, which I assume are a matter of like personnel and policy. And then there are criminal charges brought by the law.

[00:35:04] Jordan Harbinger: So what he means is he was arrested, but he was never officially criminally charged.

[00:35:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, that's my

[00:35:09] Jordan Harbinger: sense.

[00:35:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: So he goes on. I initially intended to notify the department about what happened, but after posting bail, I contacted the attorney associated with the union who advised me not to contact the department just yet. He felt I had no obligation to report the incident and that they wouldn't receive any sort of notice from any database since no charges had been filed.

[00:35:30] But now the department is using that against me. Four days after the incident, they received a poll notice from DOJ, basically a notification from the program that monitors employee records. All of the attorneys I've consulted with feel it was obtained unlawfully with still no charges brought against me from the da I'm facing termination.

[00:35:49] Oh, man. Yeah, this is a tough break. I've been a firefighter with this department for six years, and as far as I know, I've never given them a reason to doubt me. My mental health is at rock bottom. I know it was my fault for consuming alcohol and putting myself in a situation to be accused, but I also know what happened.

[00:36:07] What would you do if you were in my shoes? Do you have any advice on how to navigate this? And hopefully hang on to my job signed, stuck in this quagmire after my counsel backfired.

[00:36:18] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, man. Well, look, I'm very sorry this happened to you. There's a, a really interesting chain of events here. From the initial trauma of what you saw on the job to the drinking, to that fateful night, to the investigation, to the termination decision.

[00:36:31] And I would venture to guess that there are dots to connect even before the trauma that made that experience even more impactful. So your childhood, your life up to that point, your baseline mental health going in this stuff is, it's complex, but so you're drawing a line through those major events and at various points along the way you're saying, yes, this was my fault, but also kind of not my fault.

[00:36:51] And I think it's fair to some degree. Clearly this all cascaded in a way that you couldn't control and might not be entirely fair. But the unspoken theme of your letter to me is how much responsibility do we really have when it comes to poor decisions? How much accountability do we take when factors outside of our control come around and screw us over?

[00:37:10] Really interesting questions. We wanted to run all of this by an expert. So we reached out to TD Dela Pena, a supervisor at a police agency in California, and a friend of the show.

[00:37:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep. And also my police consultant on my short film, who is just a real gem of a human being.

[00:37:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. If he's a great dude and one of the few cops we've met who has a real appreciation for human nature, a real sensitivity for the difficult parts of the job.

[00:37:32] So the first thing TD said was, you're on the wagon, you're in aa, you're taking care of yourself a lot better. That's really great news. You deserve a lot of credit for that. And like I said, that's the foundation of everything. From here on out through a few off the record conversations, we found that a lot of times, a lot of stuff like this, a lot of these infractions, they can follow you for your whole career.

[00:37:53] You know, you could end up with an infraction 25 years ago. People are still bringing that up in performance reviews or talking about it around the office. It's not something you can easily shake. Unfortunately, in TDS experience, you'll probably always be the pissing in the alley guy, assuming that's what you did.

[00:38:09] Your colleagues will probably have heard rumors about what happened. The scuttlebutt is real. The officers who arrested you, they might know people at your fire department. All the gossip spreads as TD explained to us, this is how a professional reputation takes a hit, and it can really hamstring your career trajectory, and that's true in like any field, but it seems to be especially true in public safety.

[00:38:29] Now, you seem to be under the impression that you only needed to notify your department if you were charged criminally, but TD said that you oftentimes need to notify your department if there's any negative contact with law enforcement. That's the case for all police departments in the state of California anyway.

[00:38:46] TD wasn't sure if that's the case for fire departments as well, but you are saying that your department is penalizing you for not reporting this. So that makes us think that your department does, in fact require employees to say, Hey, I got into a situation with the police. Here's what happened. I'm sorry, I wanna come clean about it.

[00:39:02] So to quote, TD here, at the end of the day, your internal review is not about whether you're getting charged with a crime or whether you committed a crime. It's about whether you violated your department's policy, which you clearly did. Now, what sucks is that your union attorney is the one who advised you not to notify the department about what happened, and TD confirmed.

[00:39:23] You do need to listen to your union lawyer on stuff like this. So if they're saying appeal and go to the Skelly, then you gotta appeal and go to the Skelly and you gotta take your chances there. So that's where I really feel for you. You were advised by somebody who should know, and then that advice, that bit you in the ass and was wrong.

[00:39:40] And that sucks. There's no way around it. And that's the one point in your story where I'm going, this didn't go your way in a way that's unfair and that's not your fault. Mm-Hmm. But that you ended up in a position to be screwed. That part is your responsibility. And I hear you taking responsibility for that in your letter.

[00:39:58] And I, I also sometimes hear you not entirely taking responsibility for that. And TD zeroed in on that as well, how you're kind of vacillating here. TD heard a lot of hedging and minimizing in your letter as a supervisor. He's not a fan of that personally, but that's kind of his personal bias as he put it to us.

[00:40:15] This is something that happened. It's gonna play out the way it's gonna play out. There's no way to stop that. Now what you can do, however, is say. I dealt with my trauma in an unhealthy and irresponsible way. I made several mistakes that got me in hot water. And then you get therapy, you stay sober, accept whatever the consequences are, and then you start focusing on building a new life and career.

[00:40:36] Whether that means rebuilding your reputation at the department you're in, if that's even possible, going to a different department and starting over, or getting into a new field entirely. There's a connection here to Jocko Willing's whole philosophy, right? The extreme ownership idea. Oh, good point. You gotta bite the bullet and take full responsibility.

[00:40:54] Not half responsibility. Not responsibility, but responsibility. Full stop. Especially as somebody who works in public safety, because in TDS view, you are held to a higher standard.

[00:41:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, for sure. And TD brought up one other good question here, which was he wondered what your relationships and your reputation were like at your agency before this all happened.

[00:41:16] This whole thing really didn't go your way. And now it sounds like you're probably about to be terminated. And sure, maybe that's just a matter of bureaucracy and bad luck, but it does make me wonder if people in your department truly had your back before this happened, because you would be amazed what kind of behavior can be forgiven, what kind of second chances can be extended when the higher ups like you and they respect you and they're invested in you and they wanna keep you around.

[00:41:45] And because there is this slightly wishy-washy responsibility thing happening in this letter, I gotta say I do see T D's point. Now we're clearly speculating a little bit here. We don't know how you showed up in your job until now. We don't know how people see you. You did say that you've never given them a reason to doubt you, but that's a little bit different from, I've built incredible relationships and I've been an outstanding employee and people really admire and respect me.

[00:42:10] Those are, those are very different experiences in the workplace. So part of me wonders whether this attitude, this mindset, how it might not have created the trust and the goodwill and the loyalty to absorb a mistake like this TDS philosophy. Pretty simple. Don't be a dick. It's a simple rule. No one will have your back because you're gonna need the benefit of the doubt one day, and that's just something for you to sit with and consider right now.

[00:42:35] And if there's any truth to that, even a little bit, then that's something else that you could work on, and that's something that you can definitely take with you into your next chapter.

[00:42:43] Jordan Harbinger: Right? And that might also be part of the reason that this quote unquote, had to happen, right? To show him how absolutely crucial that is,

[00:42:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: right?

[00:42:52] So however this Skelly hearing goes, however this shakes out, tds advice to you is basically this first off, and this is not gonna be news to you. TDS experience is that these incidents almost always stem from unresolved issues, especially in the public safety profession. So his strong recommendation was you really want to talk to a therapist right now.

[00:43:12] Now you're still employed at the moment. So TD said that you can probably go through the EAP, the Employee Assistance program, or you can find a wellness or a peer support program, find a therapist that's probably covered by the department. Second, your rep has taken a really big hit here. It might even be shot even if you don't get fired.

[00:43:31] So even if you make it through this, at a minimum, you're gonna have to work and stay clean for years to fix your reputation. Third TD said that you have very little control over what happens at this point. The question now is, what is the punishment gonna be? TD pointed out that you're not the first person to get in trouble for something like this, right?

[00:43:51] There are guidelines to follow here, and your department probably already knows what they're gonna give you. Now, your punishment might increase or decrease as a result of the skelly. It's hard to say, but if you're truly facing termination, then you really have nothing to lose. It does not get worse than termination.

[00:44:08] But if you might be facing just a few months of suspension, things could get worse. In a skelly, it's not unheard of. So the Skelly is a gamble. Just something else to keep in mind.

[00:44:18] Jordan Harbinger: But look, if you do get terminated, TD said that, unfortunately, you're probably done as a firefighter. It's terrible. But if you get terminated or suspended for a long time, you're gonna have to find somebody who will take a chance on you, and that can be really hard.

[00:44:32] But there is some hope here. Maybe you can work for another agency, the US Forest Service, something like that. Maybe you become an EMT with a private company. Maybe you go into something completely unrelated, like maybe something in the recovery world that might be very meaningful given your sobriety journey.

[00:44:46] TD said, it's never too late to reinvent yourself, to save yourself. There's always a chance. And he pointed out that the people who initially hired you, they believed in you. They invested in you, and they did that at great expense. They wouldn't do that for no reason. You have the strength, you have skills, you have potential.

[00:45:02] So hang on to that. But more than anything. The big wake up call here is you need to take care of yourself. You need to be a solid human being who treats people well and owns his responsibilities and builds a stellar reputation so that this never happens again. And if you take that lesson to heart, if you apply it wherever you go fully without qualification, I know you're gonna make it through this.

[00:45:24] Okay? So hang in there bud, and good luck. You know what else you're gonna wanna whip out in public. Gabriel, the fine products and services that support this show, we'll be right back.

[00:45:37] This episode is also sponsored by Fly Kit. If you travel internationally a lot, well Congrat, your freaking ations. Maybe you don't have little kids, but anyway, jet lag is your enemy, right? It used to steal days, even weeks from my life. Enter Fly Kit, the jet lag Game changer. I first discovered it on a trip to Bhutan, ah, before kids when I could actually do stuff.

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[00:47:12] Let me know how it uh, lands for you. I wanna know what you think. This episode is sponsored in part by Techno Skeptic Magazine. So I got into this 'cause a friend of mine started it and it is really interesting stuff. There's a lot on kind of like how tech is great and fine until it ends up being the downfall of free society.

[00:47:31] So one of the things that they cover are facial recognition and there's a piece on this DOD technology called Jetson, which can essentially id you from 700 feet away with pinpoint accuracy using something called a heart print. And you can imagine what that is. It's just absolutely wild. My buddy who started this is a fan of this show and he knows that this is a good overlap and I agree.

[00:47:50] Former CIA guy, which I think is kind of adds another layer of interesting sort of insider info. He talks about how food companies are hacking our taste buds to pack on the pounds at least. Uh, that's what I tell myself is I inhale a bag of Doritos. Once you pop, you can't stop. And that's not even their motto.

[00:48:05] There's lots of stuff in there from electronic health records, so if you've heard about that crazy insurance company hack a few weeks ago, no surprise for the techno skeptic folks. They told me that electronic health records were a giant disaster months and months ago, and I was just waiting for something like this to happen.

[00:48:19] So check 'em out@technoskeptic.substack.com. The overlap is great with our Skeptical Sunday stuff end this show, so it's really a good fit. If you like to read about this stuff, techno skeptic.substack.com. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors, all the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show.

[00:48:42] Our all in one searchable and clickable place over at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Also, if you can't remember the name of the sponsor or you're like not able to use the deals page for some odd reason, you can email meJordan@jordanharbinger.com. I will happily surface a code for you because it is that important that you support those who support the show.

[00:49:01] Now, back to feedback Friday. Okay, what's next?

[00:49:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a partial owner of a small business and we're currently in our fourth year. It's been a struggle and a huge learning experience, but we're finally in a position to have a really good profitable year. The problem is, my business partner, to put it bluntly, sucks.

[00:49:24] He's not around very often, which is annoying when I'm there. Pretty much every day when he is around. He frequently pisses off our employees and is generally disrespectful to them and sometimes even to me. This makes it really hard when I'm the one who all the employees like and respect. And I have to hold the company together because without our employees, we would not survive.

[00:49:44] He's the typical boss, not a leader.

[00:49:47] Jordan Harbinger: Uh, yeah, kind of know exactly what you mean here.

[00:49:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: I and several others have had conversations with him about treating employees better and being more present, and it seems to go in one ear and out the other 99% of the time.

[00:50:00] Jordan Harbinger: Interesting. So this guy almost certainly isn't gonna change.

[00:50:03] He just

[00:50:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: doesn't, he doesn't wanna hear it, it doesn't sound like it. Also being more present, eh, something you can work on if you want to, but treating people just decently, like basically decently, that's a character thing, right? That's harder to change.

[00:50:16] Jordan Harbinger: Sounds so familiar. This guy sounds like an a-hole and he's incompetent on a number of levels and it's very hard next to impossible to work with people like this.

[00:50:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: He also wants to grow the business at what I feel is an unsustainable pace and borrow a ton of money, which scares the hell outta me.

[00:50:34] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, yeah. Oh, and we're gonna have to use your credit, you're gonna have to be a personal guarantor as well, so, uh, yeah. Get to it. Okay, I'm gonna answer that one right off the bat.

[00:50:42] Do not take out loans with a partner who wants to grow the business at breakneck speed, especially when they are not putting in the work and they are not behaving like a leader who can deliver on that growth. Nothing good will come from that. You are going to end up being on the hook personally, and then that guy's gonna end up jumping ship or sinking the ship.

[00:51:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: I concur totally. So he goes on. While we will likely finally make some good money this year, I can't help but think I just want out. I recently got married. I have my first child on the way, and I don't want my kid to grow up with a super stressed out, unhappy dad, but I'm not sure where to go from here.

[00:51:19] If I stay, there's a pretty good chance I'll make a ton of money over the next decade or so, but my shares of the company are worth a decent amount right now, about 200 to $300,000. Mm. I could do a lot with that money, including starting my own business. I'm sure I could even bring a handful of my current employees with me, but.

[00:51:37] I would feel bad knee capping my business partner.

[00:51:39] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm.

[00:51:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: But the company doesn't even have that kind of cash to buy me outta my shares.

[00:51:44] Jordan Harbinger: Bingo. One thing I've learned over the years, the value of your shares, usually those are not as valuable as you think. If you're not a publicly traded company, those shares that share value, it's like it's just monopoly money because they're only valuable if somebody's willing and is able to buy them.

[00:52:00] And if not, then, I'm sorry to say those shares are, they're worthless. But also if your partner does buy you out, that deal's probably gonna come with some sort of non-compete agreement, which I mean, I don't see why it wouldn't. And sometimes the non-compete is actually worse than the buyout, especially if you're talented and enterprising like you are.

[00:52:17] Right? So

[00:52:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: he goes on, I could also get a job in the same industry making more than I am now. Should I dissolve my shares and leave with nothing but do so relatively stress free? Do I make an agreement with the company to pay me over a certain time period? If the company goes bankrupt without me, before I get paid out, what do I do?

[00:52:36] Should I wait it out until the company has more money for me to exit with? And how do I talk to my partner about all this signed leaving a situation that's fatal when there's a good chunk of change on the table?

[00:52:47] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so many thoughts. So if you know my story at all, you know that this letter hits very close to home.

[00:52:53] Long story short, I went through a bad business breakup, six or seven probably, is it seven years? I don't even know slash care now. I worked with some very difficult partners, ones who engaged in a lot of the same behavior as yours. It took me years to come to terms with those challenges, with my decision to leave until finally my old partners essentially made the decision for me.

[00:53:15] And we were in the midst of separating amicably like you think you're gonna do? And they were just like, what if we give you nothing? Which is how I started this show, which is basically the best slash worst, but actually the best, most amazing thing that ever happened to me. So let me start by saying your partner's behavior, it's objectively problematic.

[00:53:33] It's extremely difficult to work with and work on, and I'm sorry that you have to deal with that. If this guy was just kind of brash or he is like bad with social cues, or he's a little scatterbrained, or any number of more minor flaws, and you talk to him about it and he was like, oh, wow. Yeah, I can do better.

[00:53:50] I'll work on this. That's a different story. That's not this guy. You and several other people have talked to him about this and he's just not interested in changing. Now, I don't know exactly how you talked to him. I don't know if you guys tiptoed around him or you minimized things or you failed to follow through.

[00:54:06] Maybe he didn't get the message, but the message is pretty clear, and it sounds to me like you have enough data now to know that this guy is not a healthy, productive, uplifting partner. So given all that, I'm gonna be real direct with you. I would seriously consider leaving this company, and I know that that's scary, but just hear me out here, everything you've described.

[00:54:25] Screams guy who wants all the glory and power and wealth, but is absolutely not willing to put in the work and conduct himself in a way that would achieve those things. And when you're up against that, in my experience, it's a no-win situation. I'm afraid it's only gonna get worse from here on out and by sticking with somebody like this, because there's potential money in it, I mean, I'm 95% sure your concerns and your resentment, they're only going to grow and you're gonna pay the price with your happiness, like you alluded to in your letter, which now that you're a husband and a father, that price is even higher because other people depend on you and are affected by you.

[00:55:01] You owe it to them to be healthy and high functioning as well as to yourself. Now, if you can get this guy to buy your shares with a payment plan over time, that's obviously worth pushing for. But again, I look, I don't know how realistic that is. Plus there's gonna be a potential non-compete that could really hold you back, which is yet another reason I would not.

[00:55:20] Over index the value of your shares in this equation. In fact, I think they might be hurting you by making you clinging to this toxic situation. So yes, I would at least be willing to dissolve your shares and leave with nothing if it meant finding a situation that's healthier, happier, potentially more lucrative.

[00:55:38] The worst case scenario is you leave with no buyout and no non-compete. And you can go work for somebody else in your industry or you can start your own shop, which is what you said you might wanna do earlier. But even then, you're not really leaving with nothing. You know the best people in the company.

[00:55:53] You have their loyalty. You know how to run a company in this space that is extremely valuable. And I know from my own experience, I undervalued that. When I left my previous company, I was like, I'm gonna have to start over. It's gonna be impossible. It took 11 years to get here and now. And then like a year later, I'm like, no, I know how to run a good podcast.

[00:56:11] I know how to hire. I brought my whole team over 'cause they all left the previous company with me because they didn't like the other guys either. So even if you have to leave with quote unquote nothing, there's a really good chance you have zero obligation to your partner and you could just poach most of the staff you need and you could really eat his lunch and he's kind of left with no recourse.

[00:56:29] I would obviously talk to a lawyer about that so you don't get into hot water with trade secret law and stuff like that. But I am, I've got my doubts that he's gonna be in a position to do anything about you poaching some staff and if the company goes bankrupt before you get paid out. That's gonna make you a creditor of the company and you're gonna bend over like everybody else, like every credit card, another vendor that is owed money by this company and never gets squat, which honestly, you file a proof of claim, you hope for the best.

[00:56:56] You literally forget about it, and any money you get is gravy. And basically just luck. And yes, if you have a reasonable degree of confidence that the company will get more money in the next like six months or so. Sure. Time your exit with the company being in a better, a better position if you can do that.

[00:57:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. But then if the company's in a better position and if it can stay in that position long enough to actually continue paying them out, then I. I would imagine it would be because of him, right? So, right. If he leaves, how is he gonna make the company successful to then do right by him?

[00:57:25] Jordan Harbinger: That's the same situation I was in.

[00:57:26] It was like, I'm leaving and you can buy me out. And my lawyer was like, dude, you run, you generate all the leads and you get all of the sales and you, you manage the sales team and the production team. What are these yets is gonna do to generate revenue to pay you out? Nothing. And I was like, I'm so mad. I remember I was like, I'm so mad, I wanna do something bad.

[00:57:44] And my lawyer was like, you have done the single most damaging thing to this company that you possibly could, which is leave it in the care of these two morons. And the judge actually is the one who, who kind of nodded and laughed at that, which tells you something. I mean the, the impartial mediator judge was like, yep.

[00:58:00] That's pretty much how I see it. Like, these guys are dumb asses. You're, you should just leave. Wow. I mean, the judge can't say that, but the fact that he chuckled and smiled and nodded was uh, enough for me. I. I also like the idea of you getting a job in the same industry. You said you'd be making more doing that than you are now.

[00:58:16] That's awesome. That could be a great move, especially as a soon to be dad. Stability is important too, and having a stable job while you lay out the groundwork for starting your own company in a year or two. That could also be a smart strategy. It maybe it takes time to ramp up. Maybe it takes longer than you think Sometimes.

[00:58:31] I really don't know what you're in.

[00:58:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, and who knows, maybe you end up working for somebody amazing and you keep learning and you meet even more people in your industry. I mean, that could be a crucial move before you start your own business.

[00:58:42] Jordan Harbinger: For sure. Just, I would say one thing, don't feel like you need a safety net just for the sake of having that safety net.

[00:58:48] I mean, it's often better to take momentum you have from running your own business and just parlay it into doing your own business. Again, there's costs emotionally, mentally associated with, like, now I'm in a corporate environment again where things are more lax and I can take my foot off the gas and I'm not in charge, and then, oh, I, alright, I gotta start my own company.

[00:59:05] And it's like, okay, you gotta rip off that bandaid again. Right now you are going from running your own thing to running your own thing. The transition's tough, but I don't necessarily think it's gonna be tougher than going back to corporate and then back out on your own. I, I, I don't necessarily think those things are equivalent now as we're talking to your partner about all this.

[00:59:24] First of all, definitely check your partnership agreement or whatever contract you have. Make sure you don't have a non-compete or some other clause that's gonna take you by surprise or bite you in the ass if you quit. Second, hire a lawyer like right now and have them read the contract and advise you on how to proceed, how to communicate with your partner, how to prepare for what's ahead.

[00:59:42] You do not wanna be scrambling to find an attorney the day after you leave or things blow up. You wanna be way out in front of that and have a good relationship with a good lawyer already. This is key. 'cause the one huge advantage you have right now is time and timing. You've got time to get your ducks in a row, plus you basically have the element of surprise when you decide to pull the trigger.

[01:00:02] And I guarantee you this narcissistic prick of a business partner, he's gonna be like, what? You can't leave. Well screw you if you wanna leave. That's how these guys kind of all predictably react. So make the most of that advantage. Put all the pieces for your exit in place, your relationships, your finances, your strategy.

[01:00:20] Do that before you have this conversation, and you'll be 12 steps ahead of this dude. And then if the worst happens, which it unfortunately sometimes does, like I said, you're gonna be so prepared, it's not gonna be nearly as bad. You're not gonna lose sleep being like, oh my God, I wish I'd done this.

[01:00:34] You're gonna be like, I'm so glad I did that two months ago before this guy had a meltdown. Third, like I said, partners like this who are egomaniacs, in my experience, they do not like to feel backed into a corner. They're gonna lash out. So if you decide to quit, I would frame this transition like it's a choice.

[01:00:50] Instead of saying like, I'm leaving, or you gotta leave, you might wanna say, Hey, so I'm actually thinking about leaving the company. What is sort of the best way for us to do that? I don't wanna disrupt business, you know? Do you want to take it over? Do you want me to buy you out? Whatever. I mean, actually, in fact, let me get back to that.

[01:01:06] I think. You asking him is gonna stroke his ego and make him feel like he's still in charge. Also, if you say, I'm leaving the company, your partner could retaliate, he could fire you, he could pull all sorts of stuff. That's actually what happened to me. Right? It was just like pure retaliation, which to the detriment of the company, which was not terribly surprising.

[01:01:23] But I also, I guess I underestimated just how much somebody would cut off their nose to spite their face. Don't make that same mistake. And if he isn't interested in taking over the company, then maybe you say, okay, do you want me to take it over and buy you out, assuming that's something you'd want? Of course.

[01:01:38] And if he says yes. Then it's gonna seem like it's almost his idea, and that's gonna go a lot better for you. And then promise yourself that you'll do everything in your power to avoid partnering with somebody like this again in the future. So look, I'm really sorry your partner's like this. It's a damn shame.

[01:01:54] But I'm super excited for you, and I'm not just saying that because I know what it's like to be stuck in a toxic partnership. I know how draining it is, and I also know what it's like to finally get out and take your life back. It's incredible. Especially, you're gonna be surprised. Like I said, I did a co, I ran a company for 11 years.

[01:02:10] The first year that I was out, we made more profit than that company ever made at any, in any peak year. It was incredible. It was absolutely incredible. In six months or a year or whatever, you're gonna look back and be like, I am so lucky that this happened. When other people told me when I was going through the company breakup, they were like, this is gonna be the best thing that ever happened to you.

[01:02:31] I wanted to punch those people straight in the face, but they were a hundred percent correct. Over time, you're gonna leave this company. You're gonna start something new without carrying the dead weight of this business partner, this good for nothing. Or you're gonna get a great job with a great company somewhere you're gonna do even better and you're never going to look back.

[01:02:50] You will not. I'm one of those people who can confidently say through my own personal experience and almost the exact same situation, that this is going to be the best thing that ever happened to you, even if the transition is stressful. I think a, a famous writer once said, life's too short to read a bad book.

[01:03:05] There are some parallels here with careers. Life is just too damn short to work with a-holes who don't wanna work on themselves and don't wanna change. And I, I firmly believe that, that we only get one shot at all this. So make it fun, make it successful, make it high functioning. And I'm, like I said, I'm pumped for you, man.

[01:03:22] Good luck in whatever you decide to do. Hope y'all enjoyed that. I wanna thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Don't forget to check out the Bobby Gunn episode as well as outta the loop on Israel and Iran, if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network.

[01:03:37] The circle of people that I know, like, and trust. And if you're going through a transition, like the guy in Q4 back there. I highly suggest this course for you. It's free. It's called Six Minute Networking. It's not Gross and Schmoozy. It's on the Thinkific platform@sixminutenetworking.com. The drills take a few minutes a day.

[01:03:53] This is invaluable. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig the well before you get thirsty. People. Build those relationships before you need them. Six minute networking.com. Find us on the subreddit, comment on episodes. We don't control that subreddit. There's only a few people in there, but we are conversing and discussing shows and Gabe and I pop in there from time to time.

[01:04:12] Also, our newsletter over at Jordan harbinger.com/news. We're gonna be doing a new format there, but that has been quite popular and a lot of fun for us. We dig into old episodes, find out those gems, pull out the takeaways. So if you wanna know what to listen to next or you wanna reexamine a takeaway from a previous episode, Jordan harbinger.com/news is where you can find it.

[01:04:30] Show notes and transcripts on the website@jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers discounts, and most importantly, ways to support the show all at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi, or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi.

[01:04:50] This show is created, an association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, LIO Campo, and of course, Gabriel Rahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show.

[01:05:06] Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.