759: Can Mom Cease As Family Man’s Side Piece? | Feedback Friday

759: Can Mom Cease As Family Man’s Side Piece? | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, my compadre in consultation, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker so you can get a deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening even inside your own mind. If you're new to the show, on Fridays, we give advice to you. We answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers.

[00:00:48] This week, we had Annie Duke back on the show about when to quit something and when to push through, kind of like the opposite of grit, science-based quitting. Now, that's something I can get behind. Actually, even before that show, she just helped me think through a pretty big decision earlier. I was really grateful for that. So there's some meat on that bone. Also one from the vault with fan favorite David Buss with another one on evolutionary psychology mating and especially the mating crisis among educated women. We'll also discuss mate selection and how to avoid mating disasters. It sounds like I'm talking about a pack of monkeys. And yeah, I guess, since we're humans, I guess I am talking about a pack of monkeys, glorified monkeys over here. So make sure you've had to listen to everything that we created for you here this week.

[00:01:30] All right. Got some fun ones. Got some crazy ones. What's the first thing out of the mailbag?

[00:01:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm in my 30s. My mom is over 60 now, and she divorced my father 30 years ago. Shortly after the divorce, she started an affair with a colleague that lasts to this day. The thing is he's been married the whole time.

[00:01:48] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: She loves him, and he's not your average exploitative, bottom feeder, but the relationship is way too comfortable for him. He likes her company and he supports her when she needs it, but that's about it. He and my mother hang out frequently, and she often comes home in tears because she wishes she were more than just a sidepiece. But I know he won't ever leave his wife. He's getting the best of both worlds by keeping his family. He has three children around my age and having an affair. To make things worse, my mother used to be a beautiful woman, and in the opinion of many, she hasn't lost her essence. But five years ago, she was hit with Bell's palsy. She's gotten much better, but her face is still permanently damaged. So she keeps saying things like, "He's the only one in my life who knows me prior to this curse. Who else will I ever meet now? I wish I could jump off of this, but I can't. He's so good to me." But what's your take on all this? What should I do, if anything, to help her? Signed, Helping Mom Cease This Role As a Sidepiece.

[00:02:46] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, interesting question. Gabe, I know we've gotten a lot of letters from people who have been cheated on or who have cheated.

[00:02:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:02:53] Jordan Harbinger: But I don't think we've gotten one from somebody whose parent was on the other side of this.

[00:02:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yep. True.

[00:02:58] Jordan Harbinger: Watching your mother be the other woman for 30 years. I think watching her suffer as a result, that's got to be kind of sad.

[00:03:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:04] Jordan Harbinger: But this situation is not entirely black and white. This guy, your mom is involved with, look, he's obviously doing something gross and unfair. He's keeping a huge secret from his wife. He's putting your mom in the unenviable position of being his sidepiece for three decades. I mean, this guy has some issues, but then, like you said, he's not a total bottom feeder. And your mom, on some level, she is choosing to accept her place in his life. She has been choosing it for 30 years. So she bears some responsibility here too.

[00:03:36] She got involved with him knowing his situation. She stayed with him when it became clear that he wouldn't leave his family and now she won't break up with him because, well, she feels she needs this relationship and she feels she can't do better, which is why she's willing to pay this emotional cost, which sounds pretty high. So that's what this comes down to for your mom, whether that cost is ultimately worth it. Whether the happiness and love she gets from this guy outweigh the sadness and the frustration of just being merely the other woman. And I'm sure she's been asking herself that for years, but maybe she's avoiding confronting the choice head on, or she just hasn't had someone to really push her to sort through all of this.

[00:04:18] So if you want to help your mom here, I would invite her to explore that question. Maybe you sit down with her one day and you ask her, "Mom, when you come home in tears because he won't leave his wife, do you feel the relationship is worth it? Why does this relationship feel so important? What are you getting out of it? Why do you think he hasn't left his wife? What does that say about him? And what does that say about your place in his life? If he never leaves his wife and this goes on for another 20, 30 years, could you be okay with that? Will you wish you had left?" And then just invite her to talk about that with you. Help her see her situation more clearly. Help her weigh all these variables.

[00:05:03] Now, I'm guessing one thing that might come up is her appearance, the Bell's palsy, maybe her age. And honestly, I do, I feel for her having a condition like that must be really hard to deal with. She's probably thinking, "I'm 62, part of my face is drooping. I'm in a different stage of life now. Who else is going to take me? Who's going to have me?" And look, that might be true or it might not be true. But what matters is that she feels it's true and that is informing her decision to cling to this guy. But again, that's a good question to ask your mom, whether clinging to this guy because he knew her when she was young and beautiful and before the health stuff, whether that's worth the pain.

[00:05:40] And as you guys talk about that, you might want to talk about how she values herself, what she thinks makes her worthwhile or desirable.

[00:05:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:48] Jordan Harbinger: You said she used to be beautiful, that she still has that essence, but that she's changed. And I'm guessing your mom has a lot of her self-worth wrapped up in her appearance. It's possible. She thinks people will only find her valuable if she looks a certain way, and I'm not denying that that matters, but I do wonder if your mom over-indexes her appearance and under-indexes her other qualities and whether that speaks to some self-esteem issues on her part, which might also explain why she's sought out affection from this man for so long and why she's stuck around even though it hurts.

[00:06:20] Now, you're going to have to be careful not to immediately steer her to the outcome that you want, which is her breaking up with him, I assume, because she might bristle at that. She might agree and then backslide later. And in my opinion, she has to come to this decision herself, or at least get like 80 percent of the way there before you tell her. "You know, hey mom, it's time. You got to end this." And the reality is she might not. She's 60-plus years. This relationship has worked, quote-unquote, "on some level" for 30 years. That's longer than most marriages. She might feel that this is it for her, and the pain she feels might just be a price that she can live with.

[00:06:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: That is very true. It could go either way. I do think it's going to be hard for her to separate from this guy after so long, because like you said, she's clearly getting something out of this relationship. But you know, Jordan, I feel like we have to talk about a bigger thing here, which is what his mother's relationship with this guy has been like for him. I mean, the guy writing in.

[00:07:17] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: He's in his 30s. He's really only known his mom as this person who's been in this questionable relationship. He's watched her suffer as the other woman basically his whole life. I got to think that's made quite an impact on him.

[00:07:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a good point, especially since they seem pretty close. He's got to have some feelings about that.

[00:07:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: He definitely does. And you know, I'm wondering if those feelings are playing a role in this impulse. He has to intervene and seemingly to convince his mom to break up with this guy. Not just because his mom is suffering, but because he's suffering in a way too.

[00:07:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I see what you mean. You can hear a little bit of his own anger in the letter.

[00:07:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:07:55] Jordan Harbinger: Like when he said that this guy has the best of both worlds and he's not going to leave his wife.

[00:07:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:07:59] Jordan Harbinger: He, he's clearly pissed off and I get it.

[00:08:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I get it too, but it's interesting. Is that just his anger at this guy or is that him feeling his mom's anger on her behalf?

[00:08:10] Jordan Harbinger: You know, that's a good question. I don't know. Maybe a little bit of both, right?

[00:08:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Probably both. But what I'm getting at is I wonder if he's feeling his mother's pain as his own pain here. It's almost like he's a part of this affair himself too. You know what I mean? Like I get the sense that he's not just thinking, you know, "Mom, you need to get out of this." It's almost like, "Mom, we need to get out of this.

[00:08:33] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Yeah. You actually may be onto something. So are you thinking they might be a little bit too close, the writer and mom?

[00:08:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: I guess what I'm saying is I love that he cares about his mom. I think it's very sweet. It's appropriate to a degree, but he's clearly very identified with her. He's on her side and she brings a lot of her relationship stuff with this other guy to her son, right? She's talking to him about being how upset she is and how she feels, and that must make it hard for her son to separate out his experience of this affair from his mom's experience of this affair. And more broadly, what choices he would make here and what choices his mom is ultimately going to make, and whether he can accept that those might be different?

[00:09:11] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Because again, she might decide to stay with this guy, and then, of course, the question is how does he deal with that?

[00:09:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:17] Jordan Harbinger: How does he work out these feelings if they're on opposite sides of this affair?

[00:09:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. That's really hard because his sadness and his frustration about this relationship, yeah, that is largely his mom's stuff but it's also his feelings about this guy, his feelings about his mom, maybe even his feelings about relationships in general. Like he's been on the sidelines watching this whole thing happen. I'm sure that's also left a mark, so I would take some time to sift through all of that too, maybe even before you talk to your mom about what to do with this relationship. Because if you're going to help her unpack this relationship, you have to separate out your stuff from her stuff as much as you can.

[00:09:54] Hey, if you do that, you might find that it's a little bit easier to accept your mom's involvement with this guy because then you might be in a position to look at all of this and go, "Wow, like my mom does not value herself very well. She is settling for this hurtful relationship. This is not the choice that I would make. That makes me really sad for her. But that's what she wants. This is her circumstances, her desires. She's her own person. She's not me. So I have to figure out what to do with these feelings on my own.

[00:10:24] Jordan Harbinger: It's a really good point, Gabe. I do think that their close relationship is an asset here.

[00:10:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:30] Jordan Harbinger: Because it means he has a decent shot at getting through to her, but—

[00:10:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:10:34] Jordan Harbinger: Also, the fact that they're so close, that might be what's driving him to intervene and save her from this guy in the first place. And that can get kind of dicey.

[00:10:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Because the line between him and mom might get a little blurred sometimes. Yeah, exactly.

[00:10:45] Jordan Harbinger: Right. So there you have it. Talk to your mom, get her to open up if she can, and if she wants too. But more importantly, separate out your stuff from her stuff. You got to do that. Remember, you guys are different people. I know that sounds like an obvious sort of truism, but it's got to be painful to watch a parent make a really poor decision. But it is her decision to make, and you may have to learn to accept this as much as it kind of sucks, and then work through these feelings on your own. You might even find that those feelings, they're even more urgent than your mom's choice here. She's just dredging up stuff that you need to work through anyway, which is kind of fascinating if you think about it. So, hey, good luck. We're wishing you and your mom all the best.

[00:11:27] You know who won't treat you like a sidepiece? The amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:11:35] This episode is sponsored in part by HVMN. You may have heard buzz about ketone supplements. They can boost your workouts, they can help your body use fatty acids for fuel if you even know what those are. I use Ketone-IQ. It's a little shot from HVMN. I use it before my morning workouts. Focused energy, it's not the same as caffeine. It's hard to explain. It's like there's no jitters, there's no anxiety. Just the focus that you get from that. There's no crash. They also have these convenient portable shots that are perfect for throwing in your gym bag, going on the cycling ride, long runs, whatever you need throughout the day. The taste is terrible. We've covered that. It doesn't matter. They don't throw sugar in there and all that other crap. It just tastes rotten. Choke it down. That's what you do, whatever. It's not as bad as working out. I feel much more focused and less hungry during the workouts. Like I said, I don't get starve or crash at the end. If you're working out, you're training for something, definitely give Ketone-IQ a try. I'm very curious what you think of it. A lot of you have really fallen in love with this stuff as well.

[00:12:28] Jen Harbinger: For 20 percent off your order of Ketone-IQ, go to HVMN.com promo code JORDAN. Again, that's H-V-M-N.com promo code JORDAN for 20 percent off Ketone-IQ.

[00:12:41] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Wrkout. Wrkout was created by my good friend Curtis. I'm not going to say this is partially my idea, even though it was totally my idea. Wrkout is like the Airbnb of personal training with hundreds of world-class trainers available for in-person or virtual training. I've been using them for years now. I lost 40 pounds of flab. I'm looking better than I ever have in my entire. You can search for a trainer based on location, specialty, availability, training type, for in-person or virtual. You can take a quick online quiz and then the Wrkout team will help match you with the perfect trainer. So I've been doing this, like I said, two years. I freaking have a six-pack just in time for Christmas, which I'm going to ruin with pie. This is one of the best decisions that I've ever made. Actually, Curtis kind of made me do it. I do it four times a week. Even my 81-year-old mother is hooked on Wrkout and does it twice a week now. I look forward to my sessions. Who the hell looks forward to workouts? This guy apparently. Never have I done that before in my life as well. My trainers, Chad and Kareem, who have the most personal trainer names ever, have gotten to know me. They know how to push me. They know when I'm not feeling it. They know when to give me time off. I just freaking love Wrkout. So if you want to see what highly vetted world-class personal training can do for you virtually or in person, check out wrkout.com/jordan to try it out. That's W-R-K-O-U-T.com/jordan. So it's workout without the first O. Tell them Jordan sent you. I guarantee this will change your life if you let it.

[00:14:06] Thank you so much for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors keeps the lights on around. To learn more and get links to all the discounts. You hear all the codes for the show. They're all in one place. They're at jordanharbinger.com/deals. You can also search for the sponsors using the search box on the website as well. Please consider supporting those who support this show.

[00:14:25] Now back to Feedback Friday.

[00:14:27] All right, what's next?

[00:14:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Gabe and Jordan. I graduated college four years ago. I'm married with three children and I now work as a nurse. This job has been working out well. We've managed to get out of debt, purchase a house, and even begin saving for retirement. Last year, I got into the graduate program of my dreams, nurse anesthesia school. When it came time to start, I deferred for a year because I was afraid of the amount of debt I would incur approximately $300,000.

[00:14:54] Jordan Harbinger: Wow.

[00:14:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: And the fact that this program will not allow me time to work for three years. While all of the mentors I've spoken with consider this reasonable, given the earning power of the degree, I hesitated because I'm the primary earner for our family. What I do now is exciting and fulfilling, and I don't think I need to go back to school to feel fulfilled. On the other hand, becoming a nurse anesthetist has been my dream For years, I would make significantly more money and I'd enjoy a better work-life balance. Furthermore, this is a highly competitive field and life will only become more expensive in the future. So I don't want to miss this opportunity and regret it later. Should I return to grad school? If so, how can I risk my family's financial future to pursue it? Signed, Anesthetize This Dream or Follow The Green.

[00:15:38] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, this is exciting. Congrats on getting into the CRNA program. I'm not going to try and say nurse anesthetist a bunch of times.

[00:15:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: I like how you did that. I was like, did you just go to the acronym so you didn't have to say that nine times? Yeah.

[00:15:50] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I'm going to acronymize it.

[00:15:52] I'm sure that's a ton of work and very competitive. It's really super impressive to get into something like this. I don't think people realize that you are really got people's lives in your hands. This is a super important job. It's interesting. We usually don't take personal finance questions on this show. Usually, it's a little dry. It's impossible for us to tell you how to manage your finances, but this one stood out to us for a few reasons.

[00:16:13] First of all, it sounds like you and your wife are quite good with your money. And yes, this is a significant amount of debt to take on. 300K is no joke, and yeah, you're going to be giving up income for three years, so there's a lot of opportunity cost here as well. That's nothing to sneeze at, but based on what you've shared, you know how to be disciplined when you have to, you know how to manage your assets, and that gives me a lot of confidence that you would manage this debt in a responsible way.

[00:16:40] Also, you're being smart and getting other opinions here. I think that's really sharp and insightful. Your mentors, they think this is a good idea, and assuming that they actually know what they're talking about, I'm assuming they're also CRNAs or doctors or work in the medical field somehow. That counts for a lot. But the most important variable here for me is that becoming a nurse anesthetist — I still did it.

[00:17:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Nice. You did it. Yeah.

[00:17:02] Jordan Harbinger: —has been your dream for years.

[00:17:04] Yeah, I practiced. I won't lie.

[00:17:06] It sounds like this career would be really meaningful to you and it's going to open up space in your life to have other fulfilling experiences, like spending time with your family, having a full life. Maybe your hours are going to be different. What do I know? So, given all that, I got to say I'm leaning toward going for it with this program. But if you really want to make sure that this is a sound decision, I would look at this purely as a business case, the cost of the degree and the lost earnings against the salary you'd make for the rest of your career, and how quickly you can pay off these loans.

[00:17:37] Because you've heard me say this on the show before, having no debt is having freedom. Debt is a lack of freedom. It's something that I probably saw from Mark Cuban on Shark Tank or something like that. But then you're going to know whether it's worth risking your financial future to pursue it.

[00:17:52] Actually, Mark Cuban said that on our show, now that I think about it.

[00:17:54] But the idea here is you're thinking of yourself as a business. You are going to be able to make a calculation. The math is going to tell you what to do.

[00:18:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm having the exact same reaction, Jordan. I also think it's worth asking how you think about risk, in general, because yeah, taking out a huge loan that is a risk, but so is not going to grad school and sticking with this lower salary when you have a family of five. And if you're working 12-hour shifts, six days a week for the next 40 years.

[00:18:22] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: And you barely have time to see your children grow up and you're constantly exhausted and your relationships suffer and on and on and on, that's a risk too.

[00:18:30] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: So which risks are you willing to take on? Maybe that's the question. And what's interesting is that if the math on this degree does check out, and you know that there's a reliable demand for CRNAs, so you're always going to have work and you will be able to make this money back. Paying off the loan might be the least risky risk in this equation, whereas gambling on your quality of life, your health, your family, your time, those might actually be the riskiest.

[00:18:54] Jordan Harbinger: That's a great point. Those variables, they're harder to quantify, but that doesn't make them any less important. In fact, they're probably more important.

[00:19:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:19:03] Jordan Harbinger: As for the regret piece, the fact that you're already worried you're going to kick yourself for not getting this degree, I think that's trying to tell you something.

[00:19:11] I want you to check out this interview I did with Dan Pink on regret and how we can use it to make smarter decisions and even bring more meaning to our lives. We're going to link to that in the show notes. I think that'll be a really great listen for you, especially right now. But between the numbers and the purpose stuff and the premature regret, I do think you already know that this is worth taking seriously. So get together with your wife and explore all of this, and I'm sure it'll lead you down the right path, and good luck.

[00:19:41] You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a lot easier. If there's something you're going through, any big decision that you're wrestling with, or you need a new perspective on life, love, work. What to do if you're both a victim and the perpetrator of sexual abuse as a child? Still thinking about that story from last week, Gabe. Intense.

[00:20:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah.

[00:20:02] Jordan Harbinger: We got a lot of intense questions here.

[00:20:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Super intense.

[00:20:05] Jordan Harbinger: Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:20:13] All right, next up.

[00:20:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm in my mid-30s and ever since my husband and I had a baby two years ago, which he really wanted, he's morphed into someone I don't recognize, literally. He's now over 300 pounds at 5'9", and secretly binge-eats junk food in his car every day, sometimes multiple times a day. He naps in the middle of the day and spends every free moment watching YouTube or playing on his phone. We sleep in separate rooms and he sleeps in an armchair because his obesity-related sleep apnea is so severe. He sometimes goes days without showering and weeks without brushing his teeth.

[00:20:49] Oh, that's like my nightmare.

[00:20:51] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's vile.

[00:20:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: He's been hospitalized twice for throat abscesses and has had to have multiple teeth pulled for neglecting his oral hygiene.

[00:20:59] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh.

[00:20:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: We barely speak and we definitely don't touch. He's so disgusting that it creeps me out that he goes in my bedroom. I even change my sheets after he is in the bed because he's covered in huge pimples and boils.

[00:21:12] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my god.

[00:21:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: He's also incredibly unpleasant to be around, and his depression frequently manifests as rage. He once told me he is going to convince the court I'm crazy and take my son from me. When I called him out, he became incredibly aggressive and refused to let me leave the house. When I confront him, in general, he reminds me that I wouldn't be able to maintain the house or go for a morning walk without him around, which makes me feel like I'm in a hostage situation.

[00:21:38] Jordan Harbinger: Yikes. This is really, really bad.

[00:21:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: He refuses to talk about any of these issues, so they remain unresolved. We tried marriage counseling for a few months, but our counselor worked in a superficial kind of way and it didn't resolve much. When he is not around, my life is good. I have a wonderful job, hobbies I'm passionate about, a counselor who helps me cope with my anxiety, and friends who make me feel loved and appreciated, but I don't think I can leave my husband. For one thing, I live in a state with 50/50 custody no matter what. I wouldn't want to subject my son to my husband's issues without my protection for another thing. Splitting time between two households is so detrimental to children's well-being. My kid needs a dad and he needs one stable home. I'm now looking to sell my house and buy one with an extra bedroom for my husband to stay in. I know he needs help, but I can't make him get help. I will suffer through this for the rest of my life if it means that my son has a better life, but that is so hard. I'm so lonely and so sad. Can I live like this until my son is an adult? Is there an option I'm missing? Signed, Needing to Grouse About Being Stuck in the House With This Louse of a Spouse.

[00:22:50] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, Dr. Suess thing, all right.

[00:22:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: It was a little Dr. Seuss, yeah.

[00:22:56] Jordan Harbinger: This is really seriously a very sad and disturbing letter.

[00:23:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:01] Jordan Harbinger: Man, you've painted a really, very vivid picture here of your husband, especially of his skin. I'm getting the jeebies from that, but also of your marriage, your home, your state of mind these days. Phew, I got to say, this is really stressful to hear about. I can't even imagine living it. It sounds to me like your husband is in a bad way. I mean a really, really bad way. You don't just develop an eating addiction and balloon to 300 pounds. I mean, look, I'm an inch taller than this guy and I'm about half that weight, half.

[00:23:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: That does paint a picture of how bad it is, yeah.

[00:23:34] Jordan Harbinger: Because I'm not a skinny dude, man. I'm not, and I'm like 150 and this guy's 300 pounds. I'm an inch taller. So it's crazy. You don't balloon to that weight and start raging at your wife and neglecting yourself this severely if you are not in a lot of pain, just the teeth thing alone. The fact that he really wanted a child and now he's acting this way, man, it's just extra sad. He can't even participate in this life that he wanted or says that he wanted, or maybe he didn't know what he wanted.

[00:24:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:24:02] Jordan Harbinger: There's so much we don't know about your husband, but one thing I can say, pretty confidently is that he was probably wrestling with some heavy stuff before the baby came along and something about this big life transition activated, whatever it is. And he's working very hard to avoid dealing with this—

[00:24:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:20] Jordan Harbinger: —seemingly at all. So look, we could talk about all of this until the cows come home, but I'm just going to cut to the chase here. Your husband is in trouble. If he continues down this road, he might not even be alive for very long. It's probably difficult to understand the depth of his anger and his fear and his shame right now. I mean, not bathing, not brushing your teeth, having to be hospitalized and undergo surgery for just basic stuff as throat abscesses and getting your teeth pulled down. That level of self-neglect speaks to a depression that is so severe. I don't even think we can wrap our minds around how painful that must be.

[00:24:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:24:59] Jordan Harbinger: That's just a real hopelessness on his part. There's a big part of him that's just completely given up from the sound of it. It's just tragic. So obviously, my first recommendation would be to encourage him to get the help he desperately needs. And I don't just mean going to a psychiatrist and getting a couple of prescriptions to deal with the symptoms that is obviously not going to do the job. It might even be making things worse. This guy needs to talk and boy does he have a lot to talk about. He needs to do that with a professional. He needs to do it consistently. He's got to start getting a handle on how he ended up here.

[00:25:34] But you say you've tried to talk to him and he refuses. And look, if that's the case, I mean, if you've literally tried multiple times to genuinely and empathetically talk to him about what he's going through, help him see that he needs to see a therapist and start taking care of himself and all that. And if other people in his life have tried the same thing and he's just ignoring you guys and continuing down this path, then you might be right. You can't make him get help and he's on his own, at least for now, which is where this stops being about your husband and frankly starts being about you.

[00:26:07] And I'm going to be blunt here, but it's all out of love. I know you have your reasons for staying married to your husband. His behavior is a real concern. The custody question is tricky. Splitting time between two houses, yeah, that can be tough for a kid. It also sounds like you depend on your husband financially and logistically, and that makes things complicated. I'm not trying to dismiss any of that, but when you say that this feels like a hostage situation, which I can definitely appreciate. I also feel that you are participating in this hostage situation by refusing to even consider separating. You say this splitting time between two households is so detrimental to children's well-being. Maybe it is.

[00:26:47] Look, there's probably some studies on this that I haven't seen, but so is growing up and watching your father scream at your mother, threaten to take you away from your mother, block the door when your mother wants to leave the house in a threatening way. So you know what else is traumatizing? Having a father who's in this much pain, who's physically repulsive, who's not healthy enough to spend time with you can't play with you, can't relate to you, is in surgery for stuff, smells right? I mean, I could imagine how somebody who goes weeks without brushing their teeth is in the house and has abscesses.

[00:27:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Not fun to be around.

[00:27:19] Jordan Harbinger: Not fun—

[00:27:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:27:19] Jordan Harbinger: —and who's depressed and angry. Growing up in a home where your scary dad spends all day in a spare bedroom with his CPAP machine, like some kind of obese [Bertha Mason] and your mom goes about her life pretending the guy doesn't even exist, that's traumatizing. That's damaging, and so is absorbing the message from a young age that, "Hey, when things get this bad, you don't try to work on them or remove yourself from the situation, you just deal with it. You just pretend it's not there." That is what's detrimental to a child.

[00:27:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:27:48] Jordan Harbinger: I would argue that's much more detrimental than living between two homes if it ever came to that. Now, if your husband is actually abusive to your son, that obviously complicates matters. But if that's the case, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, you can use that to get full custody. They're not going to give somebody 50/50 custody if they're abusive. You can get a supervised visitation, something like that. That's going to remove a big obstacle here.

[00:28:11] But look, the one thing we agree on is that your kid needs a dad and he needs a stable home. So my question to you is, I know that this is a little blunt, but do you really think he has that now? From where I'm sitting, the answer is clearly no. This is not a healthy father. This is not a stable home. And yeah, your son is a toddler, but real soon he is going to be talking and feeling and absorbing all of this. And look, I'm going to be honest with you, he already is.

[00:28:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:37] Jordan Harbinger: My kid's three, he's been very perceptive for two years now. He can't articulate what he's feeling, but he knows. And as scary as it is, I think you need to strongly consider whether this arrangement is really the lesser of two evils. Or, and this is a hard question to ask yourself, is this just the path of least resistance in terms of making a decision here?

[00:28:59] And look, I'm not saying you got to divorce your husband tomorrow, but I think you need to take a closer look at these assumptions that you have and try to see your own situation more clearly. Because sticking around and quarantining your husband to a small part of your life, that probably seems like the only solution when your view of the situation is this rigid.

[00:29:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Well said, Jordan. Honestly, I think she already knows that she might not be right about this.

[00:29:25] Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah.

[00:29:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Just look at her question. "I'm so lonely. I'm so sad. Can I live like this until my son is an adult? Is there an option I'm missing?" I mean, she's already sort of on to herself, right?

[00:29:34] Jordan Harbinger: She knows. Yes, she knows.

[00:29:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:29:36] Jordan Harbinger: She wrote to us because of this, man. I mean, she probably knew 60, 75 percent of what we were going to say, if not how we were going to say it. She knows this situation is totally messed up. She knows that she might be making a huge mistake.

[00:29:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: And she knows deep down that she has more agency here than she might think, right? My sense of this is that she's moving between feeling like a hostage and feeling like a co-conspirator.

[00:29:59] Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Yes, a co-conspirator, good word. Her husband might have been the one who went off the deep end, clearly. He put her in this awful position, okay.

[00:30:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:07] Jordan Harbinger: But now that things are at this point, they are co-creating this life together.

[00:30:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:30:11] Jordan Harbinger: And as long as she clings to these very rigid principles, which maybe she grew up with, like, "You can never get divorced. It's the worst thing ever." Well, I mean, okay, but is it though? "A kid needs one home. I'm going to suffer through the rest of my life if it means my son has a better life." I mean, who knows where those patterns came from, but all that, she's colluding with him to be miserable. And I know that sounds really harsh and I don't want it to sound like I'm callous here, but there it is.

[00:30:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It's interesting. I also hear some martyrdom—

[00:30:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

[00:30:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: —in those statements.

[00:30:41] Jordan Harbinger: Totally. Totally.

[00:30:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: She's putting her son's needs or what she perceives her son's needs to be above her own needs.

[00:30:47] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: And also in a weird way, putting her husband's needs above her own needs, even though she despises him by wanting to get him in a room in a new house so that they can chug along and not have to interact too much and just not deal with the marriage and what the state of this relationship is.

[00:31:03] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Don't even get me started on the buying the house thing. It's like, "Well, I could leave him, or we can just rearrange, we can move all of our earthly possessions to a new location in a new house where he has his own little domicile of where we can just ignore him."

[00:31:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:31:16] Jordan Harbinger: It's like instead of dealing with the elephant in the living room — sorry, that's an unkind pun that I did not intend to make. You're just going to build an entirely different living room and be like, "Well, well, I don't have to deal with that anymore."

[00:31:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:31:27] Jordan Harbinger: I mean that is ridiculous. But you got to ask yourself, where are you in all this?

[00:31:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. I would be really curious to know where she picked up the message that the answer to a crisis like this is to resign yourself to it and suffer in silence and put other people's needs first. I wonder if that's her template, her pattern to your point. Maybe from her own childhood that might be recreating itself now.

[00:31:49] Jordan Harbinger: I think that's a good point, and I also think it's possible that she's using her baby to justify that template.

[00:31:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:55] Jordan Harbinger: She's saying, "I can't leave. My baby deserves a stable home," which sounds noble, but she really might just be sticking around because she's terrified. She doesn't trust herself, or she's afraid of challenging these ideas she has about how family and marriage should work. There's a million reasons why this could be the case.

[00:32:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:32:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, a lot going on here, but that is our take. I know it's probably not what you wanted to hear, but it's maybe what you needed to hear, or at least what you need to consider. And obviously, you can make whatever decision you feel is best, but I would not close yourself off from legitimate options just because they don't fit the concepts that you're clinging to. Part of your job here is to really investigate those and see if they're serving you and your son as well as you think they are.

[00:32:41] And listen, as you work through all this, I would keep encouraging your husband to get help. I wouldn't give up on him just yet until it becomes absolutely clear that he truly cannot or will not be helped. Because even if you guys do end up separating, you need to have the healthiest co-parent possible. Your son's going to need the best dad possible or a dad who's around and doesn't, you know, die young from Cheetos. I hope he gets to a place where he's willing and able to accept your help. And look, I know I'm keeping it light in some places here, but I really feel for this dude. This guy's a wreck. I really have serious, serious sympathy for this dude. Imagine being that miserable. It's just horrible.

[00:33:17] So hang in there. I know this is a really dark time, but there is a way forward one way or the other and we're wishing you, your son, and your husband all the best.

[00:33:27] Yeah. Gabe, you just don't get that way unless there's tremendous pain.

[00:33:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:32] Jordan Harbinger: You would have to try so hard to get that way in two years. I mean, this is like a light switch went off on this guy. And whenever your life changes that much for the worse—

[00:33:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:42] Jordan Harbinger: —it's traumatizing and of course, you just can't deal with it, won't deal with it. It's just a sad situation, phew.

[00:33:48] Well, you know what'll make your wallet 300 pounds heavier? The crazy deals on the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:33:59] This episode is sponsored in part by Progressive insurance. Most of you listening right now are probably multitasking. So while you're listening to me talk, you're probably driving, cleaning, exercising, maybe doing some grocery shopping. But if you're not in some kind of moving vehicle, there's something else you can be doing right now, getting an auto quote from Progressive insurance. It's easy and you could save money by doing it right from your phone. Drivers who save by switching to Progressive save over $700 on average and auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Discounts for having multiple vehicles on your policy, being a homeowner, and more. So just like your favorite podcast, Progressive will be with you 24/7, 365 days a year. So you're protected no matter what. Multitask right now, quote your car insurance at progressive.com to join the over 27 million drivers who trust Progressive.

[00:34:44] Jen Harbinger: Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. National annual average insurance savings by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2020 and May 2021. Potential savings will vary. Discounts vary and are not available in all states and situations.

[00:34:58] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by Going West podcast. Whether you're looking for a new true crime podcast that has minimal side talk, you know what I'm talking about, or one that focuses on the victim and their story, you got to check out Going West. Going West is a true crime podcast hosted by Portland, Oregon Couple, Daphne and Heath. That's a very Portland set of names there. In each episode, they dive into various US-based disappearance and murder cases, whether it's the bizarre stalking story of Dorothy Jane Scott, who's the young mother who received harassing phone calls before she just went missing from a hospital parking lot in 1980. The tragic 1993 murder of a young Alaskan native student, Sophie Sergie, which was finally solved in early 2022 incredibly, or even the recent disappearance of Maya Millete whose husband paid, I'm not even kidding, spell casters to seriously injure his wife. Going West has you covered with all the weirdness. And with twice-weekly episodes, which drop every Tuesday and Friday, you're never going to run out of content. Check out Going West true crime wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:35:56] If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and supportive listeners do, which is take a moment and support our sponsors. They're amazing. They put up with a lot of crap because we put them in tough places all the time. To learn more and get links to all the discounts on the show, all of the deals there at jordanharbinger.com/deals. You can also go to the website at jordanharbinger.com and search for any sponsor using the search box right there on the website as well. Thank you so much for supporting those who support us. Keeps the lights on, keeps us making these things week in, week out.

[00:36:27] All right. Now back to Feedback Friday.

[00:36:30] Okay, next up.

[00:36:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. For the last eight years, I've worked at a 200-person company, owned and run by my mother and father. I joined the company straight out of high school and I've climbed up to earn my place as a valued member of the staff. The thing is, I'm now at a stage where I want to move on to bigger and better things. But I manage the largest department and I'm responsible for many roles that only I know how to do. So it would've quite an impact if I left. On top of that, both my parents are now suffering from health issues that seem to be a result of the enormous stress that they're under keeping this company going through an extremely tough past few years. My mother is ill almost every other day and spends 90 percent of the weekend bedridden. My father never stops working and I can see his anxiety increasing too. He used to speak to me and the other staff at a tone of quiet confidence, and now he talks with a great deal of worry. I want to start a new career, but I'm sticking around so I don't add to my parents' stress and health issues. I know that I wouldn't be able to shake the guilt if I were to leave. What do you think I should do? Signed, The Captive Prince.

[00:37:38] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this is a really tough position to be in. You're torn between charting your own path and making your parents happy, which by the way, very common in family-owned businesses. This is not easy. I'm sure it's even harder given your parents' health and mental state these days that makes this whole thing even trickier. So, first of all, I just want to say, if you're feeling this urge to change careers, I think you owe it to yourself to consider it. You can't let your parents hold you back from building the life that you want. I understand your reasons for sticking around, but you deserve to build a career that's fulfilling too. You're 26. You joined when you were 18. This is the only company you've ever worked for. Branching out, working for people who aren't your parents, carving out new goals, challenges, opportunities — that stuff is all really important and it's healthy. It's healthy for you to separate from your parents' issues just a little bit and healthy for you to carve out an identity of your own.

[00:38:34] That said, it's got to be so hard to watch your parents falling apart as they try to keep this company afloat and just be like, "Hey, sorry guys. I'm moving on to bigger and better things. Peace." I honestly don't know how you even broached that conversation.

[00:38:47] Gabe, what are you thinking here? Man, this is a delicate one.

[00:38:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oof. This is hard. I feel for this guy. He's in a real bind but you know, I find this whole situation really interesting, right? The company has been struggling for the past few years. We don't know exactly why. It could be the market, could be the industry, could be their company and how they run it. It could be all of them. His parents, though, are clearly running it in a way that is taking a real toll on them. Meanwhile, he's carved out a role for himself that only he can do. So leaving would have a huge impact. So he's afraid to go. I do wonder if all of those things are connected somehow.

[00:39:23] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm. How so?

[00:39:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay. Well, obviously something is not working here, right?

[00:39:28] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: His mom is constantly sick. She spends every weekend in bed. His father is tethered to the business. He's super anxious. Their son has made himself irreplaceable or at least very difficult to replace, which look, that's a big compliment in a way but it might also be a sign that they haven't set up this company to run as well as it could. If this were not a family-owned business, right? If this son were just some executive they hired and a consultant came in and looked to the company, that person would probably say, "Look, this is a risk."

[00:39:57] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: "You got to find a way to institutionalize this guy's knowledge. You got to spread some of his responsibilities around, maybe create a training program or something like that so other people can learn what he does." Or look, if a coach came in and worked with his parents, they would probably say, "This is not sustainable. You guys need better support around you. You need to learn how to collaborate. You need to learn how to delegate. You have to create some systems and some processes that will allow this company to run without you, or at least run without you guys being here, you know, 16 hours a day every day."

[00:40:28] But in smaller businesses, and especially in family-owned businesses, to your point, Jordan, this sort of thing happens a lot. The founders tend to be super involved. Their children tend to take on a lot of responsibility. And look, they often have an emotional investment in the business, that makes it really hard to step back and say, where do I really need to be right now? Which jobs can I give up? What can I entrust other people? Can this business thrive or even survive if I'm not involved in every single decision?

[00:40:56] Jordan Harbinger: That's definitely true. I feel like I've seen that mentality in a lot of small businesses.

[00:41:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:41:02] Jordan Harbinger: And you know, it's even showing up at the guy writing in. He can't even entertain other options because he couldn't live with the guilt.

[00:41:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:08] Jordan Harbinger: Which is interesting, right? You don't feel guilty unless you feel profoundly responsible on some level, beholden even.

[00:41:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, this is more than just, "I really want to make sure my parents are okay and if I leave, you know, it might be hard." No, he's like, "I can't even talk to them about this, because if I do this to them, if me leaving screws them over, it's going to be like a weight I have to carry around for my entire life."

[00:41:31] So you have two things to solve here. One, find a way to transition out of the company without disrupting the business. And two, make sure that your parents are okay. And it seems like those two things are in conflict, but I actually think that they are both symptoms of a larger issue, which is again, how this company operates.

[00:41:50] So here's my crazy idea. What if you put your consultant hat on, you looked at your parents' company like an outsider, and you try to diagnose all of the issues that are taking such a huge toll on your parents? You could come up with a list of recommendations that would make the company stronger, faster, you know, more efficient, whatever it is. Help your parents manage it in a way that is actually sustainable. Maybe some of those ideas are about strategy. Maybe some of them are more operational, maybe some of them are technical. I'm sure a few of them will be about your parents' leadership style, maybe even how they manage their stress and make decisions together.

[00:42:26] I'm sure there's a lot going on here. I would look at everything. And then, you could give yourself a timeline. Let's say, you know, six months, nine months, a year, whatever it is, and say, "I'm going to work with my parents to set this place up as well as I can and I'm going to make their jobs easier and I'm going to make it possible for me to leave without disrupting anything." And then you could work closely with your parents to get their input and hopefully implement those solutions, really make them partners in writing the next chapter of this company.

[00:42:54] If you could do that, if you could do even half of that, I bet it would make a huge difference, but the best change you could make it, it's funny, it's actually kind of paradoxical, which is figuring out how to make you and your parents obsolete. In other words, to set the company up to operate without them, or at least without them killing themselves. If you can find ways for them to run the company without compromising their health and their sanity, and without your mom being bedridden every weekend and sick all the time, and your father anxious and you feeling guilty for maybe leaving, you will be giving your entire family a huge gift, and you'll create the conditions for you to start the new chapter of your career without feeling like you're ruining this entire company.

[00:43:35] Jordan Harbinger: Well, I love that idea. It's really smart. I also think that, hey, if he can pull that off, he'll have an amazing story to tell when he interviews at other companies.

[00:43:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point.

[00:43:44] Jordan Harbinger: It won't just be, you know, "Mommy and daddy hooked me up with a job and I carved out a big role for myself." It'll be, "My mom and dad brought me into their company and I completely transformed the company to operate in a better way, and this was the result."

[00:43:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:56] Jordan Harbinger: And that could be the reason he finds a great new role somewhere. But look, if your parents don't want to change how they do things. Or they change things but they're still super stressed all the time because that's the only way they know how to respond to things. Then at some point, you have to learn to separate and chart your own path.

[00:44:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's really interesting. It's kind of like the guy from question one a little bit, right?

[00:44:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Well, I am just realizing both of these guys—

[00:44:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:19] Jordan Harbinger: —are very identified with their parents.

[00:44:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:44:21] Jordan Harbinger: Which makes perfect sense. How can you not be? But you can see how that over-identification leads to some difficult feelings. In question one, a lot of anger and shame and in this situation, tremendous anxiety and guilt.

[00:44:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:34] Jordan Harbinger: It's fascinating, but again, you can't lose sight of your life here, and I know that sounds cold. You have your whole life ahead of you, and I don't think it's fair to hold yourself back because you want to protect your parents. Help them as much as you can, empower them to grow, show them a better way of doing things, but also keep an eye on your needs too. If you can do that, I know you'll be great. Your parents are lucky to have you around. Good luck.

[00:44:59] All right, what's next?

[00:45:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 25 and I've been with my 29-year-old partner for five years. While he can be kind, caring, and sweet, he has anger issues that veer into emotional abuse and controlling behavior. When the abuse came to a head, I tried to leave him, but I didn't have the willpower. I don't know if it's because of his begging or if I'm scared of being alone or because we're meant to be together.

[00:45:25] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay. Let me stop you right there. There's no such thing as meant to be together, 99 times out of 100, this phrase serves as a rationalization for bad behavior, or it's a dysfunctional relationship. This is essentially a thought-terminating cliche. So we talk about this when we talk about cults. Like they'll use something that rhymes or sounds clever. Quitters never win, and winners never quit. One of those things where it's like, okay, I guess I going to persevere in the face of everything. Meant to be together, by what?

[00:45:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:45:54] Jordan Harbinger: By what? There's not some one person, I mean, it's sort of magical thinking that we're now using to rationalize the fact that these people are miserable with each other. But it's like, "Well, what if we're meant to be together? We just have to put up with all this." No, no, no, no, and no.

[00:46:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And what does it mean to say we are meant to be together? Like by what metric, right? Like is it some sort of cosmic thing? Or you're actually saying that you're compatible and they're good things in this — yeah, it's fascinating.

[00:46:19] Jordan Harbinger: What it means is at some deeper, we are compatible? So all these other things that are really obviously going wrong in our relationship, we should just forget about those or try to work those out.

[00:46:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:28] Jordan Harbinger: Because something, something, the constellation of Aquarius says, we should live our whole lives together. It just doesn't make any sense. It's a rationalization, it's an excuse process.

[00:46:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: It is. She's also saying that she didn't have the willpower to leave.

[00:46:41] Jordan Harbinger: Sure.

[00:46:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: But maybe she's chalking up her inability to leave to the fact that they are meant to be together, but when really those have nothing to do with each other, it just could be that it's really hard for her to break up with this guy.

[00:46:50] Jordan Harbinger: I think so.

[00:46:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: So interesting. Yeah. Okay, so the letter goes on.

[00:46:54] So instead of breaking up, we tried to fix things. We started seeing a couple's therapist who strongly encouraged my partner to see a personal therapist, which he's sticking with. The abusive behaviors have somewhat reduced, and we're now in a better-ish place. But we still argue badly three or four times a week. Picture screaming matches in public, things being thrown, threats to break up, and each of us leaving the house to cool down.

[00:47:19] Jordan Harbinger: Geez.

[00:47:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: To add to the complexity of the situation, I've developed a crush on my ex-colleague. I think the feelings might be reciprocal because of a few comments here and there, and the way our hugs tend to linger.

[00:47:30] Jordan Harbinger: Mmm.

[00:47:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: We've only met in person about four times, but he's so much fun and makes me happy. I'm convinced that he might be the funniest man on earth. We text each other every few weeks and I feel a jolt of electricity every time I see his name on my phone. Just to be clear, though, nothing has ever happened between us. My head is a mess. I don't know what to do. Do I stick it out with a guy I've been with for five years who's trying to change for the better, who knows my flaws and accepts me regardless? Or is this crush a sign that my heart is not fully in this relationship and I should leave him for good? Signed, A Damsel and Her Dueling Dudes.

[00:48:09] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, good question. You know, I really like this stuff sometimes. It's kind of a throwback to my dating coach days and I am here for it.

[00:48:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:48:15] Jordan Harbinger: This is like a question I would get back, you know, 10, 12 years ago.

[00:48:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:48:19] Jordan Harbinger: So my usual advice in situations like this is, if you find yourself drawn to another person, when you're in a committed relationship, and I mean in a significant way that goes beyond a harmless initial attraction to some gal at the gym or guy at the gym, whatever it is, that's probably a sign that the relationship isn't right in some way, big or small, and you should take some time to figure out what you really want.

[00:48:43] I know life can get messy sometimes, but I would say 99 percent of the time if you're with the right person or a right person, and the relationship is solid, you're just not going to be fantasizing about what it would be like to be with somebody else. You wouldn't feel a jolt of electricity every time that person sends you a text. Or if you do have some of those feelings, you would know what to do with them. You put them away, you acknowledge them, but you don't act on them because you know you're with the right person or a right person, you're happy in your relationship, end a story.

[00:49:12] So when somebody writes in telling us they're in a monogamous relationship and they have a crush on somebody else, like a real one, my take is, hmm, that new person might or might not be a good partner for you, but what they definitely are is a sign that something is not right.

[00:49:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mmm.

[00:49:27] Jordan Harbinger: And if you're going to break up with your current partner, you got to do it primarily because you're not certain about that relationship. And absolutely, not just because you want to be with some other person.

[00:49:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Ah, could not agree more, Jordan. In this case, though, I think that principle is even more important because this relationship sounds, I don't even know what to call it. It does not sound great.

[00:49:48] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:49:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: It sounds very stressful. You say your boyfriend has controlled you, emotionally abused you. You guys went to therapy to work on it. Your boyfriend started individual therapy, which look, I really commend both of you for doing that. That is terrific. But you're still getting into these vicious fights. Three or four times a week?

[00:50:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And let's keep in mind that these are not just, you know, heated arguments where something's getting resolved.

[00:50:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:50:10] Jordan Harbinger: This is like they're screaming at each other at freaking Trader Joe's, throwing stuff at each other in the frozen food aisle. I mean, you do not want to get hit with a Quatro Formaggi Pizza. Trust me. It's going to leave a mark, man. You might be able to take a couple of hits from one of those Chile Verde burritos or whatever, but a Quattro Formaggi, you're playing with fire, man.

[00:50:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, dude. Those pizza boxes have sharp edges. Yeah, you can like throw that like a ninja star.

[00:50:33] Jordan Harbinger: Indeed. But seriously, you're fantasizing about breaking up. You're getting in your car and peeling off because you literally can't be around each other. This is, this is bad.

[00:50:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it's bad. This isn't productive conflict. It sounds like chaos, basically. So look, again, I'm thrilled you guys are working on it. It sounds like your boyfriend is getting better. That's really commendable. If he can get better and he is willing to work on this, obviously, he deserves that chance. But given that the relationship is still this rocky and you're having feelings for someone, I really do wonder if it's time to consider taking some time apart. I do especially since it's very hard for you to leave, like you said, which I imagine is also part of this abusive dynamic and something you should definitely be exploring too, ideally in individual therapy of your own. But that's a whole other topic. Bottom line, you guys might need to separate in order to see things more clearly.

[00:51:21] Jordan Harbinger: With you a hundred percent, Gabe. I thought it was interesting when she asked if she should stick around with the guy she's been with for five years who, and in her words, knows her flaws and accepts her regardless. What a telling question, right?

[00:51:34] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, very telling.

[00:51:35] Jordan Harbinger: Because sure, they have this long history and yeah, he knows her flaws and accepts her.

[00:51:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: Although, but, okay, but if he accepts her, then why is he also treating her so poorly?

[00:51:44] Jordan Harbinger: Well, right, that might not even be an accurate picture of this relationship.

[00:51:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:51:48] Jordan Harbinger: But even if he did accept her flaws and she accepted his, it still doesn't mean the relationship is right.

[00:51:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Good point.

[00:51:56] Jordan Harbinger: I'm more interested in whether they're working on their flaws in a meaningful way and becoming better partners to each other, and whether there's still real love here, not fear of leaving or being alone, not attachment to the past, not some weird sense of loyalty to the other person or to the universe with this grand plan, but real love.

[00:52:15] So only you can answer if your heart is fully in this relationship. But hey, also, I'm not sure your heart should be in a relationship that's this toxic. And if you decide to break up again, do it for you, not for this other guy. You can explore things with him when the time is right, if it ever is. Maybe it'll work out, maybe it won't. But you have to get your house in order first. Your heart house and your mind house, if you will. And if you do that, the rest is going to fall into place, I promise.

[00:52:41] Gabe, 25 years old, been in a relationship for five years. I mean, this is, I mean, no disrespect, when you have that little life experience, you say things like, maybe we're meant to be with each other. I mean, that's, that's the domain of sort of baloney Instagram, quote-y, fortune cookie relationship phrases.

[00:52:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: She is very young.

[00:53:00] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:53:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: This could be that huge relationship that teaches her some crucial lessons.

[00:53:03] Jordan Harbinger: I think so.

[00:53:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: That she just needs to learn in her 20s, but also, yeah, five years when you're 25, so 20 percent of her life has been with this guy.

[00:53:10] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:53:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes, there's a lot for her to learn and see. Yeah.

[00:53:12] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I think this is one of those where even if they were getting along quite well, it might even be good for them to be apart for a while, just so they can figure out who they are outside of the relationship.

[00:53:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally.

[00:53:21] Jordan Harbinger: So I hope they get to do that.

[00:53:23] Hope you all enjoyed listening this week. I want to thank everybody who wrote in and everybody who tuned in. Thank you so much. Go back and check out Annie Duke and David Buss if you haven't done so yet.

[00:53:32] All of the guests are booked on the show because I am using software, systems, and tiny habits. Digging the well before we get thirsty. I'm teaching you how to do the same thing in a non-schmoozy, non-gross way over on the ThinkIfic platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. The drills take just a few minutes per day. Ignore it at your own peril. I've really found this stuff super helpful throughout my whole life. I just wish I knew it earlier, jordanharbinger.com/course.

[00:53:58] A link to the show notes for the episode is at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. Advertisers, deals, discounts, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi or on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi.

[00:54:17] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. Hey, if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next.

[00:54:50] If you're looking for another episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy.

[00:54:57] Beau Lotto: There is a world out there, but we don't see it as it is. So this isn't philosophy. This is just laws of physics. So if a tree falls in the window, no one's there to hear. Does it make a sound? No, it creates energy, but the sound is a construct of your brain. So the tree exists, the energy exists, but your brain then turns that into something useful, which is sound.

[00:55:19] Light, all the light that's coming around us, right? It's bouncing off objects, and then it's changing when it's an object, and then it comes to our eyes, right? But our retina has no access to the light directly nor to the surfaces. All it literally has access to is energy, and that's where your brain is actually constructing a meaning. And it's that meaning that you're seeing, you're not seeing the energy, you're detecting the energy, but you're not seeing it.

[00:55:45] Language is not a construct of the world. Think about perceptions of pain. Is pain an illusion? Of course, it's not an illusion. It's a meaningful perception, but it's not something that exists in the world. There aren't painful things in the world.

[00:55:56] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:55:56] Beau Lotto: If we weren't here, pain would not exist. We can't hear the five sounds of A, that people in Scandinavia use, for instance.

[00:56:05] Jordan Harbinger: Right, right.

[00:56:05] Beau Lotto: We can't see certain shades of red that Russians can see.

[00:56:08] Jordan Harbinger: Really?

[00:56:09] Beau Lotto: Yeah, and it's only when you have awareness of why you're doing what you're doing, that creates the possibility of doing it differently.

[00:56:16] Now, of course, if you don't have eyes, you can't choose to see. You still have to function in a world that has gravity, right? That has light. But we have more freedom than we think we do. We have more agency than we think we do. So the world is always changing and complexifying, and we need to complexify with it. And we never could if we always just see it as it really is.

[00:56:39] Jordan Harbinger: For more about how our brains produce vision and the constructs our brain makes to build our world, check out episode 177 with Beau Lotto, here on The Jordan Harbinger Show.