949: Justice in the Mix for Pervert-in-Law from 796 | Feedback Friday

949: Justice in the Mix for Pervert-in-Law from 796 | Feedback Friday

[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: This episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show is brought to you by Nissan. Nissan SUVs have the capabilities to take your adventure to the next level. Learn more at nissanusa.com.

[00:00:08] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I am here with Feedback Friday producer, the sport mode kicking this family-friendly sedan of life advice into high gear or is it low gear? I don't even know. Gabriel Mizrahi. Not sure how gears work. On The Jordan Harbiger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

[00:00:36] Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from drug traffickers, to economic hitman, Russian spies, cold case homicide investigators, four-star generals, rocket scientists, neuroscientists, music moguls, and more.

[00:00:52] This week, we had Kashmir Hill on facial recognition technology. How it'll change all of our lives and possibly be the end of privacy as we know it. On Fridays though, we share stories and take listener letters and get down on our hands and knees and muck around with you in the hot messes that y'all deliver. Straight to our inbox every single week. Before we do that though, I was thinking the other day about another weird experience from when I lived in Germany. Many of you know I was an exchange student, my senior year of high school in the former East Germany. Germany was already reunified. But it was a wild time to be there because it was like eight years ago, they were a separate country that you were not allowed to leave, and if you tried, you would get shot. So, that was kind of an interesting place to be at that time. And I used to travel around a lot when I lived there, sometimes with exchange students, sometimes alone. And sometimes I would just hang out and drink a beer with street people, for example, in Berlin or in my hometown. Not like insane people or druggies or whatever. I mean, as long as they weren't getting high in front of me. But just like random interesting people that you'd see hanging out/probably living on the street. And I learned so much stuff from them because they saw everything and they had all the time in the world. For one thing, I saw how people at the bottom of the socioeconomic scale lived under communism versus capitalism and a lot of people — and we're talking about bottom bottom, like people who sleep on the street with a dog or under a bridge. A lot of these people would say things like, "Yeah, we could still take vacations and we had free healthcare." but then, I remember one of my neighbors working class folks, she had to have her teeth redone, because she just had a lot of cavities, whatever, bad oral care, the dentist saw you once a year maybe. And when you got a filling, they put something in your mouth. I don't know the English for this Gabriel, but it was like, it's called Amalgam, which is basically like a mercury.

[00:02:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Some dangerous metal.

[00:02:40] Jordan Harbinger: Right. It was like mercury, lead, and whatever else, and it was like just the cheapest metals they could find and they would put that in your mouth.

[00:02:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure. My nightmare.

[00:02:47] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it was awful. And I remember her teeth were just like rotting and she just had really bad teeth. So of course, her mouth was full of metal and her husband was the same, and he died. And part of the reason I think, was because he was poisoned at work by working with these really bad chemicals. And so you get free healthcare as part of socialism, but it was kind of bad healthcare, and done really cheaply. And also you needed way more of it because there were like no health and safety standards anywhere that you worked. One of my host father's friends, he was biking home in this factory that's now owned by Dow Chemical, and he has a giant burn on his arm. And I was like, "Hey, how did you get that?" And he's like, "Oh, I was biking home from the factory and some acid dripped out of a pipe and landed on me." And I'm like, imagine working at a factory. There's just a acid pipe that's leaking and everyone's like, "Oh yeah, don't go under that pipe. It's leaking. Hydrochloric acid."

[00:03:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: Ugh. That is so dystopian.

[00:03:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's crazy. The factory is called Linova and it was like, this massive pipes and containers, and smoke and fire are coming out of them, because they're burning off the gas and smoke's coming. It looks like a surreal skyline from a cyberpunk movie.

[00:03:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: I was going to say like Blade Runner or something.

[00:03:58] Jordan Harbinger: Yes.

[00:03:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's so dark.

[00:03:59] Jordan Harbinger: The whole horizon too. It's like a city factory and people would live next to it and then you would work in there. Dow bought it and cleaned it up, which says a lot. Also, the state told you where you could take vacations. You'd get on the bus —

[00:04:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: wait, really?

[00:04:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Isn't that weird?

[00:04:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wait. The state would say, "Oh, like this is your yearly allotment. We're sending you here." I had no idea.

[00:04:19] Jordan Harbinger: Pretty much. Imagine you're in East Germany, they're not like you can go to France. They're like, "Well, you can't leave the country, and you don't want to be in your small town anymore. We're going to take you to the North Sea, where we have all these like really crappy one or two star hotels. And we're going to pack you and all of these people that you work with or whatever, into this place, for a week by bus. And yeah, that was your vacation and that was what you did every year. You got to go to the same place." Maybe there were a couple of choices. I remember my host father saying like, "You could go to the North Sea or you could go skiing." Or something, but like there was like summer options and winter options.

[00:04:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: No Princess cruises, huh?

[00:04:57] Jordan Harbinger: No. No. Remember you couldn't leave. Like, if you go to Berlin, there's Checkpoint Charlie Museum and there's all these like, "This is how this guy got shot. This is how many people got shot trying to escape over the Berlin Wall. This is how many people died in the minefield between East and West Germany." Like they have all that information. You just, you couldn't get out. I don't want to get too far off course here, but the escapes from Berlin are really something. People made hot air balloons out of bedsheets and other fabrics to try and fly out.

[00:05:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow, I've never heard that.

[00:05:23] Jordan Harbinger: I think these are the ones that worked. Another guy made like a little submersible vehicle that he could use to sort of like snorkel out through the river, dodging mines in the water and other traps and fences. Other people went through pipes, like sewer pipes that were disused. Crazy crazy. One dude sewed himself into a car seat. And then someone sat on him and drove out.

[00:05:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh wow. That's —

[00:05:50] Jordan Harbinger: That was particularly creative.

[00:05:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Very clever actually.

[00:05:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:05:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's brilliant. The lengths people go through to get out of those places blows my mind. It reminds me of North Korea a lot.

[00:05:57] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, exactly. One other story, because I think it's really freaking fascinating. My host father in East Germany, he told me his story about how he got his driver's license. It took years because in order to get your driver's license, you had to go to driving school and that took a while and then you had to file with the police and then they had to sign off on it. So it took like four years to get a driver's license. So he had his cousin in Canada, mail him a case of Jack Daniels. And I was really surprised that they could just send products like that in and he'd go, yeah, the customs guys, you'd get jeans that were Levi's, and they would peel the labels off, they would cut 'em off. But, so the case of Jack Daniels arrives and like two or three bottles are missing, which is like, I guess pretty standard. It's like, that's the grift that the customs guys do.

[00:06:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure. Yeah. It's the custom import.

[00:06:38] Jordan Harbinger: So he took two bottles to the driving school and he was like, "So, I can drive." and they were like, "Uh, we believe you, but maybe you should show us." So they put him in the car and gave him like a final exam on the first day. They were like, "Okay, good enough." So he did that, walks out with a driving certificate, and he goes to the police station and he's like, "I want a driver's license." And they're like, "Yeah, all right, it's going to take two years and you got to sign here." and he's like, clunk, clunk sets down another two bottles of Jack Daniels. And they were like, "Oh okay. Here's your driver's license" and they probably laminated that sh*t in the break room. And I thought that was really funny. They were just like, okay —

[00:07:12] Gabriel Mizrahi: It is.

[00:07:12] Jordan Harbinger: That's aside from all the other insane things that happened in places like that. Remember that show fan who wrote in a couple years ago asking for advice on how to track down —

[00:07:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh yeah.

[00:07:20] Jordan Harbinger: Her baby brother, who was stolen from her parents at birth. They lied and said he died, but the East German government and they just like, sold him to somebody who wanted a kid, I guess.

[00:07:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: By the way, side note. Did you see the article that came out today about the same exact thing happening, stolen children but in Georgia, the country of Georgia?

[00:07:38] Jordan Harbinger: I did. I haven't read that, but I saw that headline and I bookmarked it.

[00:07:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: So, these twins were apparently sold at birth and then years later, I'm guessing early twenties or late teens, they found each other in a TikTok video.

[00:07:53] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, because people were probably like, "You look just like this other person." And then she was like, "Whoa, that does look like me." That would be so weird.

[00:08:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, actually, it was a TikTok video and a TV talent show. I haven't read the article closely, but I think they were watching their equivalent of America's Got Talent or something. And this girl saw somebody who looked exactly like her. And then she started getting messages from friends and family, like, "Why are you on this show under a different name?" and she's like, "It's not me, but we're all very weirded out because this person looks like my identical twin." and yada, yada yada. Lots of stuff happened in between and they found each other. So this happened in many communist countries. The stories of kids being reunited is wild.

[00:08:34] Jordan Harbinger: That's really sad, but so cool they found each other early-ish in life, and not when they're like 75. I mean, they can't make up for a lost childhood like that, but they can be as tight as they want, at age 20.

[00:08:46] Alright, as always, fun stuff. Top shelf doozies today. Gabe, the first thing out of the mailbag this week is an update on a previous dooze, am I right?

[00:08:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: It is. That's right. It's a legendary Feedback Friday doozie the sequel.

[00:09:00] Jordan Harbinger: Take it away.

[00:09:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, I'm the listener who wrote in about a year ago, whose brother-in-law hid a camera in her bedroom and extorted her. Okay, so for anyone who didn't hear that episode, this was the story about the woman whose brother-in-law — basically, threatened to show her colleagues these pictures and videos that he secretly took of her in her apartment if she didn't sleep with him.

[00:09:22] Jordan Harbinger: Which is gross and —

[00:09:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: So gross.

[00:09:24] Jordan Harbinger: So she did the right thing. She wrote into us about this.

[00:09:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

[00:09:27] Jordan Harbinger: Thank goodness. She turned over all the evidence, which included his confession on a recorded phone call because he's a brilliant criminal like many are to the police. And the police — I believe they got the laptop with the video that he had taken as well. So the police took a super long time investigating and bringing charges. In fact, when she wrote in, they just hadn't done anything and they wouldn't give her an update. And she was like, "Okay, they don't care."

[00:09:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's right. It wasn't clear if they just had to move slowly because that's how the procedure went or if they were sleeping on the investigation. But either way, yes, it was really dragging on. And that was episode 796, by the way. We'll link to that in the show notes if you want to give it a listen. So she goes on, after I wrote in, my sister chose to stay with her husband, and fight for her marriage, which was absolutely heartbreaking for me. Yeah, no kidding. Ugh, Jordan, I was, I was actually very worried that, that would happen.

[00:10:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. If I recall correctly, her sister was kind of like in denial or enthralled to this guy, and it was like, "I'm going to fight for the relationship." And it's like, "He secretly filmed me changing and then said he would release it if I didn't sleep with him." This is not a guy who's like habitually late to appointments, you know?

[00:10:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Correct.

[00:10:34] Jordan Harbinger: What are you talking about? Maybe she was even scared of the guy? I don't know. It was just kooky.

[00:10:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hard to say, but yeah, she was pulling away from the family and seemed to be sticking by this creep. So, something was going on with this sister. We couldn't tell. So she goes on, a year later though, she has begun the divorce process.

[00:10:50] Jordan Harbinger: Thank God.

[00:10:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Thank god.

[00:10:53] Jordan Harbinger: Get the hell away from this dude. He literally sextorted your sister. Why would you stay with him one more day? Stories like this always baffle me. Carry on.

[00:11:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm happy about that, but we're still estranged and I have no interest in speaking with her at this time. I'm hurt that she stayed with him. Yeah, I get it.

[00:11:09] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: This is a hard one to come back from.

[00:11:11] Jordan Harbinger: When you literally stay married to your sister's abuser/extortionist, that's not a, "Okay, well, NBD, let's go get a pedicure." situation to make up for it. This is like months of conversation and maybe therapy. I was so frustrated with the sister. People don't do that unless they have their own issues. That's the only reasonable conclusion, I think.

[00:11:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Which we're about to hear about. So she goes on, but I also learned something new that makes me have a great deal of empathy for my sister. I've never been close with my mom and she's always been emotionally unavailable. But during this difficult time, I naturally sought out support from her. When I told her I was pressing charges against my brother-in-law, her response was, "You should really think about what you're doing and how it affects people."

[00:11:53] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my gosh.

[00:11:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: And that sums up my mother. Wow.

[00:11:58] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, wow.

[00:11:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay.

[00:12:00] Jordan Harbinger: Just keep going. I don't even —

[00:12:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.

[00:12:02] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:12:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: We got into an argument and she proceeded to make it all about her and how she's a victim of having a quote unquote, "Disrespectful daughter." like me. Oh boy.

[00:12:13] Jordan Harbinger: This is just — I have a lot of thoughts, but first of all, this is just incredibly sad. To go to your mother, the one person in this world who, you know, should a 100 percent have your back, especially when a literal pervert extortionist targets you in such a violating way, and to have her say, "Well, you should really think about what you're doing and how it affects people." That is devastating. Especially when it's — "Well, this might be mildly inconvenient for me, so I'd rather you just suck up the trauma."

[00:12:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's almost cartoonish.

[00:12:42] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:12:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's like hard to believe that anybody would actually say. This is just so deeply hurtful and disappointing. I am with you. I am angry for her.

[00:12:48] Jordan Harbinger: A 100 percent. Yeah. Same.

[00:12:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, it must have made her feel even more alone in all of this, which just sucks. So she goes on, thanks to your show, I realized that my mother is a covert narcissist.

[00:13:00] Jordan Harbinger: Hmm, that makes sense.

[00:13:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: This was my light bulb moment. This realization simultaneously made my life unravel and fall into place.

[00:13:08] I dove into narcissism to understand how it affects me and my siblings. I realized that my oldest sister is the classic golden child. My other sister, the one who's married to the guy who extorted me, is codependent, and I am my mom's scapegoat. My sister stayed with this guy because it's what she knows, and what she thinks she deserves.

[00:13:28] Jordan Harbinger: Bingo. That does make sense.

[00:13:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: We've been abused our whole lives and mom calls it love. I just feel bad for my sister and wish she knew better. I tried talking to her about it in hopes that it would help her see the situation she's in, but she still can't even look at me.

[00:13:45] Jordan Harbinger: She's got to be pretty ashamed and/or, I mean, maybe she's a little afraid of you, somehow?

[00:13:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Which would not be entirely inappropriate in my opinion.

[00:13:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a fair point.

[00:13:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Anyway, she goes on. In short, I have lost my sister and my mom to this situation. I was also raped years ago, and what my brother-in-law did, has brought up that trauma again. Oh man, I am so sorry to hear that. That is truly awful.

[00:14:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:14:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, what a terrible thing to have happened if you've been through something like that.

[00:14:16] Jordan Harbinger: Well, yeah, regardless of course. And this new piece of backstory just makes the original story so much worse. I hate that this guy dredged up this old wound on top of everything else. Terrible doesn't quite do the job. But man —

[00:14:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, I mean, it's an indescribable — yeah, she's really going through it. So she goes on,

[00:14:33] I have nightmares of being raped and stalked. I live in paranoia. I'm afraid to be home alone. I'm afraid to get undressed in my own home. Although moving out from where this happened has helped a bit. And I experience a lot of turmoil around my familial relationships, emotional confusion, and breakdowns. Needless to say, I haven't known peace in a long time. Don't worry, I've been in therapy for half of my life.

[00:14:58] Jordan Harbinger: Well, that's excellent news. I'm so glad you're there. But yeah, all of this makes perfect sense. My heart — it just breaks for you. It really does. I'm so sorry you're going through this. I just want to give you a huge hug right now. This, is a like a pile on. It's a lot for one person to deal with, especially at the same time.

[00:15:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I also have to say I'm, I'm really happy that she moved into a new place.

[00:15:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:15:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: That was a smart move. I know it doesn't solve everything overnight, but starting over in a new place after you go through a trauma like this, that's a great idea.

[00:15:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You're not like staring at the spot in the corner where the hidden camera was every time you walk in.

[00:15:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly.

[00:15:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:15:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: So the letter goes on. A few weeks ago, over a year since this all happened, the police finally contacted me to move forward with pressing charges and an arrest warrant. My brother-in-law was arrested, but then, let go. A pre-trial hearing is coming up. The detective who contacted me explained the risk of going to trial and how my brother-in-law could walk free. Since he doesn't have a criminal record, the detective pointed out that a plea deal won't make much of a difference in terms of his punishment, but it would guarantee that he doesn't get away with his disgusting crime. I know my brother-in-law has the ultimate say, but if I'm given a choice, the detective said sometimes they ask, should I support the plea deal or should I push for this to go to trial? My boyfriend, who is my biggest support, has brought up suing him for everything we've been dealing with. I don't want vengeance. I just want justice. What would you do? Signed, Even More In Awe of The Flaws in The Law Designed To Stop My Brother-in-law and Wondering Whether I Should Support The Plea, Proceed With a Courtroom Scene or Go on a Litigation Spree.

[00:16:33] Jordan Harbinger: Boy, well, this is quite an update. I want to thank you for continuing to share so much with us and for being so vulnerable. Gabe, I remember thinking when we first took this letter ages ago, man, this woman is strong. And she's been through the wringer here and all things considered, she's handling it pretty damn well from the sound of it.

[00:16:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: She is. She's remarkable.

[00:16:50] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So to find out that this is still dragging on and that you went through another huge trauma before all of this, and that you come from the family that you do — I mean, I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing because it's insane.

[00:17:02] The amount of pressure is just crazy.

[00:17:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally.

[00:17:05] Jordan Harbinger: The deck was just stacked against you in multiple ways. The fact that you're functioning at the level that you are, that you're in therapy, that you have a partner who really has your back, and that you're not just a mumbling mess in a corner of a room somewhere, is just extraordinary. And I know you're struggling a lot lately, how could you not? But I just want you to take a moment and recognize all of the ways that you seem to be showing up for yourself, and moving through this objectively traumatic period with a lot of resilience, a lot of grace. You deserve a lot of credit for that. Sometimes we forget to do that in the middle of this kind of sh*te storm.

[00:17:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Amen.

[00:17:37] Jordan Harbinger: Now about the family itself, realizing that you were raised in a narcissistic family system, like you said, it's a bombshell. It's one of those discoveries that make you go, "Oh, these are the people I grew up with. This is how they treated me. This is how they operate." It reminds me of a lot of what I talked about with Dr. Ramani, the narcissism expert. And actually, I think that would be a great interview for you to listen to right now, How to Protect Yourself from a Narcissist. That was episode 742 and 743, obviously linked in the show notes. All that to say, your newfound clarity, your anger, your sadness, they all make total sense. And I'm sure that a lot of people listening to this can relate to your childhood or who knows, maybe you've just ruined somebody else's relationship with their mom because they're like, "Oh my God." light bulb moment again, that could go either way.

[00:18:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Pretty standard for Feedback Friday, I would say. I also have to say, the fact that you can hold your anger, and your sadness and all of this grief and still empathize with your sister, I think that is pretty remarkable too.

[00:18:34] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I agree. I'd probably be running people over with my minivan by now.

[00:18:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: I know it feels like we're kind of gassing her up here a little bit, but this is another thing that you deserve a lot of credit for. Being able to appreciate why your sister is the way she is and still honoring your experience in all of this as the central victim.

[00:18:51] Jordan Harbinger: Agree. Impressive. So about your question, just like last time, we wanted to reach out to defense attorney, friend of the show and apparently our resident's extortion expert, Corbin Payne And after saying a lot of the same things we just said about you, Corbin shared his take on the whole plea offer versus going to trial decision. In his view, if there is a taped phone confession of this guy spying on you and extorting you, then Corbin does not see him winning at trial. The odds of him walking away scot free, pretty low. But after he gets found guilty, then you get into the sentencing phase of the trial and that part can always be a little wonky. But if your brother-in-law has never been in trouble before, Corbin said there's a good chance that he'd be eligible for probation as opposed to actual prison time. That sucks. I don't know how else to put it. That's often how the system works though. There's another factor Corbin said is worth considering here, which is whether your brother-in-law pleads guilty to something that would put him on some kind of offender registry. Because those registries, we've taken questions from people who are on those registries here on the show, those registries can ruin the lives of people who are on them. Just a couple weeks ago, there was a guy who got on the thing even though his case was dismissed, because he didn't do anything. And it still shows up in background checks, and he is getting fired from jobs that he likes because they're like, "Oh, you're on the registry for this." And he's like, "Ah, it's BS. Here's the report." And they're like, "Yeah, but you're still on the list." So if this guy is to get registered because of what he did to you, then that itself is going to be a pretty serious punishment. I mean, that is a scarlet letter, big time. Now it's up to you to decide whether that punishment feels sufficient, whether it's enough. Another thing that might also help you is the opportunity to, as they say, have your day in court. Sometimes just being able to confront your abuser, call out their bad behavior, publicly name and shame them — by the way, in the public record for that matter. That can be very healing. For other people, it can be retraumatizing. It all depends on your capacity these days for this confrontation. What having your day in court would bring up for you, what you want out of that experience. Again, this is something you get to decide for yourself, but I think it could be very powerful.

[00:20:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Now, Corbin did say that if this does go to trial, you'll definitely need to testify to make this case.

[00:21:02] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: He just doesn't see how the state could make the case without your testimony. So, that's something to consider too. And it raises similar questions about whether that experience will be empowering and healing or just, you know, painful and re-traumatizing.

[00:21:16] Jordan Harbinger: I think, it could be a mix of both. I mean, it's an intense thing to do.

[00:21:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: But also, if this guy chooses a plea agreement, Corbin said that you would be able to either come and give a victim impact statement in court. And if you don't know what that is, that's when a victim has a chance to describe the impact that they've suffered as a result of a crime, whether it's emotional or physical, or financial, whatever it is. Or you would be able to write one that could be read by the prosecutor and/or considered by the judge, as they make their decision about sentencing. And your brother-in-law, he would have to basically sit there and listen to your statement and he wouldn't really be able to respond.

[00:21:50] Jordan Harbinger: Which again, I do think that could be so powerful for her, right?

[00:21:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:54] Jordan Harbinger: He can't sit there and deny. I mean, the judge will be like, "Silence. You are being shamed right now." Which is got to feel great. This is what happened in the Larry Nassar trial. You guys remember that scumbag? He was the USA gymnastics coach who abused all those athletes, often in front of their parents in these weird covert ways. Many of his victims got to testify to the significant harm that he did them. And I think there were something like 140, 150 of those statements. And I'm not sure if they were all read aloud in court. I don't know, maybe some were written, but there were a lot. And judging by the look on that dude's face, they were extremely painful for him to hear as they should have been. And I remember he wanted to get out of the trial by saying it was hard on his mental health. And the judge was like, "Bruh. Are you kidding me? Get in that chair." And if you're interested in learning more about that, by the way, check out my interview with Rachael Denhollander. She was the first victim to publicly accuse Larry Nassar. That was episode 332. Fascinating conversation. Another brave woman. We'll drop that link in the show notes too. So, telling your brother-in-law how he impacted you, it could be part of the justice and healing that you're looking for here. Now, Corbin did share a small caveat here which is, all of this is determined by state law. Based on what we know, all 50 states allow some form of victim impact information at sentencing. But some states allow them at different stages — bail, pre-trial release, plea bargain hearings. But however it plays out, if you want your day in court, you could probably still get that even if your brother-in-law ends up taking a plea agreement.

[00:23:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Now, as far as a civil lawsuit goes, Corbin said that it does sound like you have a strong case. And this would be another opportunity for you to drag this guy into a courtroom and confront him and publicly expose him. But Corbin did want to caution you that you might not get much money out of him. As he put it to us, you know, it's one thing to bring a lawsuit and get a judgment in your favor and have this guy ordered to pay you money. It's another thing entirely to actually collect that money. If your brother-in-law is broke, this wouldn't be much of a benefit to you. If he's fairly well off, then it might be a benefit if you can actually collect. Either way, corbin's recommendation is to have a chat with a good personal injury lawyer in your area, of course, and that person will be able to advise you on what the process would require and what your prospects might be, and also what damages you might be able to expect. But Corbin's advice is to go into this whole process knowing what you ultimately hope to achieve here. You got to be clear on that.

[00:24:17] Jordan Harbinger: It's an interesting question whether a dollar amount will bring her the justice she's looking for. I mean, money's always help, don't get me wrong. But I'm not sure how you quantify the emotional toll this guy has taken on her in dollars and cents.

[00:24:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. That's always the interesting question in cases like this. And I think it's probably wise to not look to the money to fully resolve the pain that you're in. I mean, if you decide to sue him, it might be better to think of it as a form of compensation that might help with certain practical matters. Like for example, paying for therapy.

[00:24:45] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Which is where you're ultimately probably going to do the real healing.

[00:24:49] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. You could theoretically find yourself, I don't know, $300,000 richer. Let's say he's got an actual job and they have to garnish his wages for the next decade to get it, I don't know what the standard damages are for "sextortion" these days. Maybe it's more, maybe it's less. No idea. But you know, you'd have that money coming in every month, or it'd be in the bank, whatever. And you know, you'd still have to work through the pain of your mom not supporting you, losing your sister, the earlier assault, but it would pay your mortgage, maybe. So it is important to be clear about what this money would and would not do for you if you can even collect from this trash can of a brother-in-law that you have. One last thing, Corbin also wanted to remind you that most states have some form of a Victims Bill of Rights. So he would encourage you to review that because most of the time, victims can request certain provisions related to safety as part of the plea agreement. Now, those provisions should be in there by default, but Corbin said, you know, to make sure it explicitly says, this guy cannot come around you, as well as addressing any other safety concerns.

[00:25:45] Again, so sorry this happened to you and that you've been through so much in your life. But like I said, you're moving through it with curiosity, empathy, patience, and a very impressive commitment to taking care of yourself. I am so proud of you for that. My hope is that this guy has to pay for what he did to you in some form, and that the punishment is significant. And I hope that that gives you some closure and some peace. Although one of the tough things you're learning from this is that, the pain you feel, it might live on in some of these relationships, with your mom, your sister, even with the criminal justice system itself, depending on how this shakes out. So, the most important thing you can do, legal stuff aside, is keep taking care of yourself. Talk about all this in therapy, stay close to the people who are loving and safe for you, like your boyfriend, and be very thoughtful about how you engage with mom and sister going forward. Again, that Dr. Ramani interview would probably come in pretty handy right now. Hoping the plea deal, or maybe the trial goes your way and delivers the outcome that you deserve. Sending you a huge hug. Hang in there, my courageous friend. You are making real progress here.

[00:26:50] Oh, Gabe, I am mad at this guy. I am mad at this guy.

[00:26:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Furious. Horrible.

[00:26:55] Jordan Harbinger: You know what's weird about stuff like this is I can't even imagine doing that to anybody. It has never even occurred to me to do anything this bad to anybody.

[00:27:05] I've never been that mad or what, you know, that jealous or trigger whatever it is that causes this. You just have to be such a next level scumbag and sociopath for this to even enter the realm of consciousness. Like, "Oh, I could film her changing and then threatened." Like what people like this need to be prosecuted and and held accountable. They just have to. He sat around and planned this. How fricking weird is that?

[00:27:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, this is pathology, right?

[00:27:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:27:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: This is like a personality disorder. This is a real mental illness and a dangerous personality. And yes, obviously, I mean, he must have been through some terrible stuff in his life where it just has flawed wiring. But yeah, I don't know what to say because we've heard horrible stories about the criminal justice system, but I really, really hope that this guy gets held accountable. Because he left a mark.

[00:27:54] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, indeed.

[00:27:55] Well, you know, you can never replace a mother's love, but you sure can try with one of the fine products and services that support this show. And unlike the mom from last question, our sponsors are going to make it all about you. All right, we'll be right back.

[00:28:10] This episode is sponsored in part by EveryPlate. We've tried a bunch of meal kit services, but you know what? EveryPlate is now our go-to. We actually subscribed and pay for it ourselves, so this is not just like the ad spiel. Jen, who's pretty much the chef in our family, of course, including cooking for my parents now, has found her groove with EveryPlate. Jen is all about planning. So she maps out the meals for the whole month. She usually picks out three or four recipes each week, and there are 26 to choose from. They change every week. You can tweak the servings for two to four people. If we're traveling, we skip as many weeks as we want. The box from EveryPlate arrives with the fresh ingredients that you need. And EveryPlate is also way more wallet friendly than other meal kits. And right now they got this crazy one dollar steak for life deals. It's like a buck really. I mean, if you're subscribed, you can add an 10 ounce ranch steak, to your weekly box for a dollar, which is pretty darn cool.

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[00:29:05] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored in part by NordVPN. Waiting at the airport with hours to spare, you decide to whip out your laptop for some leisurely browsing. Seems harmless. But once you connect to the airport's public wifi, you unknowingly enter a hacker's playground. They're just waiting for unsuspecting travelers to log on so they can swipe personal data, passwords, you name it. That's why I've got NordVPN on my phone, laptop, iPad. You know I don't want nobody's snooping on my kid's Cocomelon sessions. With NordVPN, I navigate the web with peace of mind knowing that my digital footprint is protected by what they call next generation encryption. It's like having a personal bodyguard for your data. Now, you might be thinking, "Sure. Security is great and all, but what about internet speed? Don't these things slow everything down?" The beauty of NordVPN is it's been crowned the fastest VPN out there. Streaming, downloading, browsing — you won't even notice it's running in the background. Not only does NordVPN protect your information with Fort Knox level security, it also has a strict no logs policy, so they're not keeping tabs on your internet escapades. I actually used this — I use this when I go to other countries because sometimes I want to look at stuff and I'm like, "Ooh, I know they're monitoring the internet because I'm in, uh, an authoritarian regime and I would rather not get questioned about the sites that I'm visiting at. I'm just going to leave that there." Especially for all you digital nomads and remote workers out there, NordVPN is nothing short of essential. Get exclusive NordVPN deal at nordvpn.com/jordanharbinger. It's risk-free with Nord's 30-day-money-back-guarantee. nordvpn.com/jordanharbinger.

[00:30:26] Thank you for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors does keep us going. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one place. jordanharbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show.

[00:30:39] Now, back to Feedback Friday.

[00:30:43] Okay, next up.

[00:30:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabe. A few years ago, my husband lost his job due to the pandemic. This was a big blow to his confidence, and he developed a drinking problem because of it.

[00:30:56] Jordan Harbinger: Eh, that's hard. I'm sorry to hear that.

[00:30:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: After a year of begging him to help himself in our relationship, he finally got on depression medication and began therapy. We also worked on developing healthier habits like going, hiking, biking, cooking, and appreciating life together. It was actually the happiest we've ever been.

[00:31:13] Jordan Harbinger: Amazing. Yeah. Nice little turnaround there.

[00:31:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: Since things were going well, we decided to grow our family. After some testing though, we realized that we were going to have to go through IVF. This was a struggle for my husband because he felt like it was his fault. But we worked through those feelings together, and last year we got the amazing news that we were pregnant. We were so excited to see what this next chapter was going to bring us.

[00:31:37] Jordan Harbinger: Ah, that's awesome news. I am happy for you, but this is a Feedback Friday letter, so I know something is about to happen. Something's coming.

[00:31:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: But each time we went in to make sure everything was going well with the pregnancy, my husband became very anxious and tried to pick a fight. Then a couple months later, he got Covid pretty badly and isolated himself. I later found out that he stopped taking his medication. He would stay in bed for hours each day and sometimes even miss work. He would dismiss my worry about his health and how this was affecting his career and our relationship. This led him to relapse again a few times, including on my birthday and on Mother's Day. That caused him to have even more guilt and shame. And to be honest, it made me angrier. One time when he was drunk, he could barely stand up or walk in a straight line. When he tried, he almost pulled me down when he was falling. I could have been seriously hurt and I feared for my baby's life. We got the family involved, his and mine, to support us through this like we did a few years ago, but he still refused to take his medication or go to therapy.

[00:32:43] Jordan Harbinger: Ugh, okay. So he's obviously going through something really difficult, but it's frustrating.

[00:32:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: It is. I can understand why she's so angry. So she goes on, as we got closer to our due date, his anxiety was at an all time high and he started to take his medication again and we did therapy twice. The night before we were to get induced, we were out for a walk. And again, he was stumbling, grabbing his arm, wincing in pain. Then he fell on the ground. When the EMTs got there, they said it was probably a panic attack and that he hadn't had anything to drink. Then while I was in labor, my husband had a seizure, most likely caused by his medication. I saw him on the ground, blood coming out of his mouth. It was terrifying. Luckily, my mom was there to help me, especially because I lost a good amount of blood during delivery. Wow.

[00:33:33] Jordan Harbinger: Oh my god. Yeah. That's like the most stressful delivery story that I've heard of in a while. Geez, I am glad you're all right. As if you needed any more drama at that point in a child labor situation. Wowza.

[00:33:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: While I was going through all this, I found out that the fall from the seizure caused him to break both shoulders.

[00:33:51] Jordan Harbinger: Geez.

[00:33:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: This means that I'm going to be coming home to not only take care of a newborn, basically by myself, but also my husband who can't even shower on his own.

[00:34:00] Jordan Harbinger: That's a lot to take on all at once. Obviously, the seizure was not his fault, but man. That's really unfortunate and probably physically very painful. I am sorry for both of you. I guess you're going to have to — you could hose him down in the backyard is all I can think of.

[00:34:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, there you go. Feedback Friday case open and shut.

[00:34:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's right.

[00:34:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think we're done.

[00:34:18] Jordan Harbinger: I mean, they might live in like Iowa where it's four degrees outside in the winter, but you know what? It'll keep 'em on his toes.

[00:34:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Keep him humble. Teach him something.

[00:34:26] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, something, something cold plunge science.

[00:34:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, We're just kidding. Let's see where this goes. I'm so lucky that our baby girl is healthy and relatively easygoing. And my husband is now on better medication. He took it at the same time every day regularly for a few weeks, but then he stopped again once he started to feel better.

[00:34:45] Jordan Harbinger: Oh, that's so frustrating. Just take your meds. They're working. What the hell? So many people are like this.

[00:34:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it's unfortunately pretty common with medication, I think. You take it, you feel better. You think, "Oh, I don't need it anymore." Maybe you don't want to need it anymore. And you go off and then things get hard again. It's a tough cycle.

[00:35:02] Jordan Harbinger: But I mean, you can't do that. If you need medication and it's working, you stay on the dang medication. But then again, I don't know. I'm not mentally, you know, ill or whatever for medication or have a serious problem. So maybe this is lost on me. I don't get it.

[00:35:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: No. Going on and off his medication, also without talking to a psychiatrist or a therapist.

[00:35:19] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:35:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: That seems risky to me.

[00:35:20] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:35:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: So she goes on, he's back on it again though, and taking it regularly, although I don't know how long this will last. We're in couples therapy together as well, which took some doing. But now that we're in it, he really appreciates it and sees the benefits. When my husband is present, he's a good dad, but I find myself getting so upset. I'm mad about everything he's put me through this past year. I'm mad that it still feels like pulling teeth to get him to take his meds and go to therapy. And I'm mad at the universe for making it feel like I'm barely keeping my head above water. Yeah, I can understand that. That makes a lot of sense to me.

[00:35:58] Jordan Harbinger: If I were married to this guy, I would feel the same way. So her anger is completely valid in my opinion.

[00:36:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: She goes on, it makes me wonder whether it's worth continuing to try.

[00:36:07] I still love my husband when he's himself, but he's shown me time and time again that he's not doing the right things to help himself unless I'm micromanaging him. Ah, but such an interesting question, Jordan, which himself is the real self.

[00:36:22] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a good way to put it because I was like, "Is he really himself when he's the good guy."

[00:36:26] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right?

[00:36:26] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Like, is it the guy who takes his medication and participates in therapy and stays sober, or is himself, the guy who drinks and neglects his family and his health and his career, which seems to happen a lot. Like if this was like once in every five years he has a relapse and it lasts like a couple of months and it's like, "Oh my God, it's such a battle." okay. But if it's like 50-50ish, which one is real?

[00:36:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's interesting that she considers one of those — her real husband.

[00:36:49] Jordan Harbinger: Right.

[00:36:49] Gabriel Mizrahi: And I get it. You know, one of them is the guy she married and the one she clearly prefers. But I think part of what she's struggling with here is integrating these two versions of her husband and recognizing them as the same person.

[00:37:00] Jordan Harbinger: Right. When he falls off the wagon and struggles, it might be easier for her to go, "Oh, this is chaos, Michael. That's not real Michael." But as long as he keeps moving between the two, they're both Michael, it's Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. The point of that story was they're both good and evil and the same person, and you can't separate one from the other. Wasn't that kinda the point of the story? It's been a minute.

[00:37:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: I think so. And that is so hard to accept and maybe kind of scary too. It's easier to split them off and just quarantine the other guy to some part of her life or his identity. That's easier. So, she goes on, I don't want to make any major changes, but I want to do what's best for my daughter and me. I'm scared that if I get a divorce, I can't rely on him to stay sober, take his medication, and go to therapy so that he can be in our daughter's life. How do I manage the stress and anxiety? How do I heal while also trying to navigate these big life changes and questions? Should I leave my husband or stick with him? Signed, Going Through Woe Over This Blow To My Struggling Beau With a Baby in Tow and a Tough Road To Hoe.

[00:38:01] Jordan Harbinger: Oh boy. Well, you have also been through a lot here and your husband has too, and I'm sorry to hear about all this. Your husband's career setback, the addiction, the drinking, the difficult delivery, the latest accident. I mean, this is next level stuff all at once. That seems to be a running theme today.

[00:38:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: It is for sure. It's all kind of a Feedback Friday vibe.

[00:38:20] Jordan Harbinger: It is.

[00:38:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: I got to say, it is fascinating how the last three or four years kind of culminated in that hospital room that night, isn't it?

[00:38:28] Jordan Harbinger: I think so. It is fascinating and in some weird cosmic way. I don't think that's entirely random.

[00:38:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. It's almost like everything came to a head, so to speak.

[00:38:37] Jordan Harbinger: Nice.

[00:38:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: When he had the seizure, which is now forcing her to go, "Mm-mm, should I really stay in this marriage or do I need to rethink some things?"

[00:38:44] Jordan Harbinger: Right. Something has been building here and coming home from the hospital with a newborn and a husband who needs caretaking. It's just clearly forcing her to come to terms with the severity of this situation. It's almost a blessing it all happened at once, right? Because if it happened in a jiff you might be like, "I've got this." But having it all happen at once is like, "Do I want to deal with this crap right now? Forever? I don't know." Look, I think you can tell we're largely on your side here, but also I do really feel for your husband, man, he's struggling in a major way. And he just doesn't have the resources or the desires slash commitment slash self-awareness to consistently take care of himself the way that he needs to. Plus, he's had a couple strokes of objectively bad luck. Being laid off, going on the wrong medication and having that cause a seizure, that part's like not his fault, you know?

[00:39:30] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, for sure. Although, that's an interesting question too, because being laid off was the inciting incident for this whole crisis, apparently. But I would be willing to bet that there were some pre-existing conditions, or some earlier patterns or tendencies that got activated by that setback. I don't think you go from being laid off once to developing a full-blown addiction and kind of checking out of your marriage for a year. And that makes me wonder how he was taking care of himself even before things got difficult.

[00:39:59] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm. Well, right, and that's actually kind of where I was heading too. My heart goes out to him, but you know, it goes out to him, up to a point. Because when you have an addiction, when you're struggling with your mental health, when your career needs attention, I feel you have a responsibility to give yourself every possible advantage to keep showing up for your partner, your child. And again, he's just not doing that consistently. Now, you can say that that's part of the depression, part of the addiction, but then he knows how to take his medication and do therapy and develop healthy habits, sometimes. So from where I'm sitting, he's not showing up fully for himself or for you, or for your daughter whose arrival is really upping the stakes on all of this. So, I think you need to get clear on what kind of partner you want to be with, what sort of father you want your child to have. And what kind of marriage you want to be in. Obviously, my feeling is that you want a healthy partner, a steady co-parent, a high functioning marriage. I assume you want that too, but I would really ask yourself if that's what you want going forward, or if you're willing to put up with less. Whether you're willing to support your husband if he continues going on and off the wagon in all these different ways. If you want that first version, then you need to share those standards and expectations with your husband, and invite him to commit once and for all to being the best version of himself by doing X, Y, Z, specific things. For his benefit. For your benefit. For your daughter. For his career. All of it. There are definitely some encouraging signs here — getting back on medication, participating in therapy. I am thrilled to hear that. You should absolutely validate him for that progress. But like you said, given his track record, it's really hard to know whether you can bank on that, and I think it's important to be very realistic about what you can expect from him.

[00:41:44] From where I'm sitting, things have gotten to a serious enough point that this is — it's kind of a come-to-Jesus moment. Hey, either you commit to taking your medication, go into therapy, not drinking, being involved in our daughter's life, staying on top of your career, or you are setting yourself up to struggle and spin out and cause a lot of chaos over and over again. That second path is extremely stressful. It's incredibly painful for me. It's honestly very scary. And after reflecting on all this, I've decided that I cannot go through that or expose our daughter to it. So which one do you want? And let him answer you, honestly. Ask him. Why it's been hard for him to stay on this program? What he feels his triggers are? Why he goes off his medication? How he plans to manage his health? And then give him a real shot to show you over a reasonable period of time, that he's capable of taking care of himself the way he needs to. I'm not saying that he's completely on his own there. Part of the conversation, you know, should be about the ways in which you can appropriately support and take care of him, which includes talking to him about how he's feeling, inviting him to open up more, rather than isolating and struggling on his own. I also think that that means encouraging him to work a recovery program, which might be the missing piece to his sobriety. I highly recommend he look into, I don't know, AA or SMART recovery or individual therapy, which by the way, I also think he needs

[00:43:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:07] Jordan Harbinger: And maybe you go with him to his first meeting or two. And I would continue walking, hiking, taking your daughter to the park, all that. So this isn't, you know, "Hey, go figure this out on your own. Let me know if you can hang." But so much of his work right now is the stuff that ultimately he needs to do on his own. And it starts with deciding what kind of husband, father, colleague, and human being he wants to be. Gabe, am I being too brutal here? Or does this make sense? I mean, he's either in or he is out. He can't fricking half-assed this.

[00:43:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree. It makes perfect sense. When she asked, "How do I manage the stress and anxiety?" I found myself going, "I don't think this is something you should try to quote unquote 'manage.'" You know, in the long term. Your husband's choices are largely creating this stress and anxiety, and sure, the way that you respond to him is going to determine how stressed you become, how anxious you become. So definitely look at that. But the reality is that you're married to a stressful and anxiety producing partner a lot of the time. So I think the better question is — what kind of stress and anxiety am I willing to live with? Is living with this stress and anxiety, healthy and sustainable for me and my daughter? Now again, if your husband says, "I am out of control and I am struggling, and here is why." I would absolutely listen and be there for him. Although, I think you've probably been doing that already, and I'm sure that that's what you guys are talking about every single week in couples therapy. But there's a certain baseline of functioning that has to be in place for you guys to really be able to work on this. So even if your husband is like, "I need help." and this becomes a really tough chapter while you guys get better, he has to be showing up in a way that makes this tough chapter doable. So, that might be another thing that you guys talk about. All of that said, I do think your husband needs your help right now as he recovers from this injury. I'm not sure that you should separate when both of his shoulders are literally broken and he can't even shower alone. I mean, poor guy. But like you said, this is a very, very, very big responsibility. I'm just picturing you sleeping three hours a night, and learning how to be a new mom, and then helping your husband bathe, and making lunch for him, and making sure he is on top of his medication, and his work, and his therapy and on and on and on. It just does seem pretty unsustainable.

[00:45:15] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah man, she has two babies on her hands. Who has the bandwidth for that? I think she needs some help right now. Come on.

[00:45:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: I do too. For the next few months, anyway. So, my advice would be to open yourself up to that help and find the support you need. You know, maybe your mom stays with you guys for a little while and helps you with the baby while you help your husband. Maybe she can give you a little reprieve and some much needed company. Maybe you hire some help? Maybe find a nanny for the baby part-time — somebody who can be a nurse for your husband. Who knows? Maybe insurance will even cover part of that. Maybe your husband asks one of his buddies or a family member to come over, help him out sometimes — a couple hours a day even. This doesn't necessarily all have to fall on you. I'll let you figure out the details. But in a world where you cannot take care of two people perfectly at once, especially when one is a newborn who demands so much love and attention, you got to lean on the people around you or find some additional help.

[00:46:08] Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. You know, it's interesting that she didn't bring this part up on her own. And that also makes me wonder if she feels that all of this falls to her. And I wonder if that's part of the pattern too.

[00:46:19] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, you mean like, "Does she assume a lot of responsibility in general and her husband has come to kind of rely on her for that?"

[00:46:25] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, basically. I am getting a picture of a marriage where one spouse is pretty steady and together and is kind of like the task master. Like she said, getting him to do basic stuff was like pulling teeth. And the other spouse is dragging his feet and falling apart and maybe looking for someone to keep him accountable. That might not be her fault, but it does sound like a dynamic she's participating in. And don't get me wrong, like a lot of marriages, it's like, "Jen keeps everything sort of on task, and make sure our bills are paid in the house, and like make sure that stuff's ready to go." But I'm showing up to work. I'm not like in bed and she's like, "Hey, can you get up and record stuff?" Like, that's not part of her job. So you're really taking on too much here. And maybe he's used to that, but that's not going to work.

[00:47:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, it's an excellent point. I mean, like you said a moment ago, it really does sound like she's kind of a mom to two children here. She's really kind of his mom in addition to being his wife in many ways.

[00:47:17] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:47:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: And that might also be part of this whole come-to-Jesus moment like, "Are we going to keep playing this out?" So, given all that, your question is interesting. How do I heal while also trying to navigate these big life changes and these big questions? I think you're going to heal by navigating these big life changes and questions. And the healing you're looking for isn't just some one and done thing. The healing you're looking for is in the relationship between you and your husband and in the process that you guys are in together to get better. And also in the kind of partnership and the kind of home that you guys commit to building, together. But if your husband ultimately isn't interested in nurturing that relationship, if he can't stay in that process, then the healing might come from separating, as sad as that is. And then at that point, it's about focusing on being the best co-parents you guys can be.

[00:48:07] Jordan Harbinger: I got to say, I agree, Gabe. It must be so hard for her to think about that outcome, but at what point do you go, "Hey, I am sorry, but I can't have my daughter grow up with a father who goes on and off the wagon, and falls down in front of her, and withdraws for weeks on end, and expect everyone else to keep him functional in these just very basic ways." There's got to be a line. There's got to be a line. So I would ask yourself, "What kind of upbringing you want your daughter to have?" And that'll tell you what kind of people you need to be. What kind of partnership you need to be in. I'm very sorry that you guys are going through this, but things are either about to get a lot better or they're going to be become untenable. Either way, the outcome will be net positive. Sending you, your husband, and your daughter a big hug and wishing you the best.

[00:48:52] You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise, if you can. Try to use the descriptive subject line, that makes our job a lot easier. If your ex is turning your child against you, your vice principal is asking for your girlfriend's boudoir pics, or you are trying to bounce back after being harassed online. Whatever's Got you staying up at night lately, hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

[00:49:15] Okay, next up.

[00:49:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabe. I've been thinking about your interview with Siddharth Kara regarding the environmental impact of the cobalt used in lithium-ion rechargeable batteries. That was episode 807, by the way, if you guys want to check it out. Pretty eye-opening. I'm an occasional vaper and I hate throwing away my disposable vapes among other products with similar batteries, knowing that they contain cobalt. I'm sure many others share my concern. Do you know if there's somewhere I can send used rechargeable lithium-ion batteries to be recycled? Signed, Reducing My Fault in Relying on This Cobalt.

[00:49:50] Jordan Harbinger: Good question. And I know some people listening right now are like, "Wait a minute, why are we talking about what to do with trash on Feedback Friday? Get back to the drama. Get back to the human trash."

[00:50:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. The only trash people really want to hear about on Feedback Friday is like a sextortionist brother-in-law or crazy ex who comes out of the woodwork at the last moment.

[00:50:07] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and I get it. I get it. I really do. But this is actually really important. And I wanted to take this letter so that we could build on what Siddharth Kara revealed in that interview. And I'll keep it brief. We'll get back to the — we'll get back to the trash.

[00:50:19] So first of all, lithium-ion batteries and devices containing these batteries, they should not go in your household trash or recycling bins. That's how they end up in the ground or in places where they can really do some damage, which only makes the whole cobalt catastrophe even worse. You got to take these batteries — or if you can't separate them from the device, then the whole device — you got to take them to separate recycling, hazardous waste collection points, certified electronics retailers or retailers recyclers that do electronics take-back. Or you can contact your local solid waste or household hazardous waste collection program in your area. Now, these exist in most countries, but two resources in the United States for finding a recycler are the Earth911 database and Call2Recycle. And we'll link to those in the show notes for you. Staples, the chain that sells office stuff and printer stuff. They also recycle batteries, tech, ink, toner cartridges. I think Best Buy does the same. I'm not a hundred percent sure what their stuff is. I've recycled batteries there for sure. And it's totally free at these places. And I think Staples also gives you, like in-store credit for recycling there, which I think is cool. And they definitely take lithium-ion batteries. You basically just bring 'em in and they give you five or 10 bucks off your, I don't know, your K-cups or whatever you're doing. So that's cool. And, I'm not a 100 percent sure how batteries and vapes work. I assume they're built in as opposed to replaceable. But I did some reading on this. And you don't want to take the battery out of the vape, that could be dangerous. Just bring it in as is. And by the way, there are similar recycling programs in Europe, Asia, Latin America. So it's not just a US thing. But Google this in your country and see what your options are. I was surprised to find that in Costa Rica, they're a leader in extracting lithium contained in rechargeable batteries. So definitely not just an American thing.

[00:52:02] Okay. That said, this PSA from your Uncle Jordan would not be complete if I didn't get on my high horse and ask you, why the hell you are vaping?

[00:52:09] I know, I get it. It's better than cigarettes. You only do it occasionally, yada, yada, yada. But we all know this stuff is not good for you, right? Whatever's in those cartridges is bad news. If it's not the thing that's the active ingredients, the weird oil that stabilizes it. So yes, recycle your batteries and help the world. I love you for that. But given the health aspect, maybe just don't use dangerous products that require these batteries in the first place. And I appreciate the opportunity for this PSA though, because recycling is a flawed program. We talked about some of its limitations on our Skeptical Sunday about recycling. That was episode 680. But it does make a difference to recycle properly and it can be pretty effective, especially for batteries like these.

[00:52:48] You know what won't give you popcorn lung, Gabriel? The amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

[00:52:58] This episode is sponsored in part by Audible. You guys know I'm constantly soaking up knowledge from the world's most intriguing minds. My not so secret weapon is Audible. It's like turning every moment into an opportunity to learn and grow. Whole library right at your fingertips. That's Audible for you. It's my go-to for all the — I'm usually reading nonfiction for the show. I read over a hundred books a year, to prep for interviews. All thanks to Audible. Pretty much every single one is prepd using Audible. And I — Man, I often think, if I had Audible as a kid, instead of zoning out in front of the tv, I could have been in an audiobook adventure. Absorbing some knowledge and inspiration instead of just watching Perfect Strangers reruns. I mean, you know, that did sort of shape my personality and give me the job that I have now. But I — you know, think about it. I could've learned enough, that I would've had a real job instead of being a podcaster. That would've been tragic. Maybe it's good that I only discovered this as an adult. But I love audio books for another reason. Which is that text strains my eyes, it feels slow, and as I'm getting a little bit older, it's getting harder to do that, which is really depressing. But with Audible, I speed up the narration and multitask like a pro. Whether I'm out for a walk, I got a baby in one hand, I'm doing some work stuff. I'm always plugged into a great book. And Audible's got a crazy selection from podcasts, to celebrity memoirs, to a whole range of wellness stuff, whatever you're into. And being an Audible member is the real deal. Endless library of titles to stream or download in the super user-friendly app. So try Audible for free for 30 days. Just visit audible.com/jhs or text JHS to 500-500.

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[00:55:22] If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. Which is, take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All the deals, discount codes and ways to support the show are all in one place, jordanharbinger.com/deals. By the way, if you can't remember the name of a sponsor, or you don't know the code, or you're on the go and you can't do it, email me Jordan@jordanharbinger.com. I will dig the code up for you. I'm happy to do this. It is that important for you to support those who support the show.

[00:55:50] Alright, back to Feedback Friday

[00:55:54] Okay, what's next.

[00:55:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I am in my late 20s and due to some financial hardship, I recently moved in with my grandmother. The problem is that my mother, who's in her late 50s, also lives there because she relies on her mother financially. She was a terrible mother to my siblings and me but I've been in therapy for a decade, and I'm learning to forgive her and to heal. I know that a lot of her mental health issues, even her personality disorder, come from how my grandparents raised her. There was childhood abuse and other difficult life circumstances. When we were young, she would wake up very early in the morning to yell and cursed at us about the things that made her angry, her children, work, romantic life, my grandmother. She used to drink a lot and was very neglectful. Leaving us with anyone who would take us so that she could go party. She would beat us over trivial things like talking or getting distracted in class. She used to drive drunk, fight with people and beat my older sister and brother until they were bleeding I would have to hide anything that could be used as a weapon and started to call the police once I was old enough to know how to do it. That was the only thing that would stop her violent streaks. She tried to stab my older siblings a few times and has threatened me with a knife. She would always threaten to kill me and my siblings and then herself, but she doesn't do that anymore. Wow.

[00:57:19] Jordan Harbinger: My God. That is next level dysfunctional. I am so sorry she did this to you guys. I don't even know what to say. You did deliver on bringing us back to the drama though, after that battery letter though, Gabe. Geez.

[00:57:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: I got you. We're back to the human trash. And doesn't it feel better? I think we're right in our sweet spot again.

[00:57:34] Jordan Harbinger: I feel like we're in the zone now.

[00:57:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: So she goes on, now she racks up thousands of dollars in parking tickets and traffic violations. She believes that she's psychic and is obsessed with tarot cards. When she becomes fixated on something, she will spend thousands of dollars on it. She's currently obsessed with tarot cards and has at least a hundred decks.

[00:57:53] Jordan Harbinger: Oof.

[00:57:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: She's also obsessed with being famous and makes several music videos and short films each year. She's previously been obsessed with shoes jewelry and clothing, so that she could dress for her future job as a celebrity. She talks about how she will be famous soon, and it's been at least 30 years, since she started pursuing fame.

[00:58:12] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. That sounds a lot like you Gabe. Although, I will say you've only made one short film this past year and she's made several. So you kind of need to step your sh*t up, I don't know

[00:58:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: I know. She's prolific and I am slacking.

[00:58:24] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Uh, I don't say — I mean, is she single or?

[00:58:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. You should hit up our friend here and see if she'll make the intro. At least get the workflow situated.

[00:58:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Who needs hinge when I man the Feedback Friday inbox, am I right?

[00:58:35] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. The Feedback Friday Gmail, the original dating app. You'll never get bored, I'll tell you that.

[00:58:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. We're definitely going to need some links to your mom's short films, by the way. I am dying to see those.

[00:58:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, send us those Vimeo link stat. I might be the one to discover the next big thing. She's already got the clothes and jewelry, so only a few little things that need to slide into place after that.

[00:58:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: Maybe don't let your mom hear this episode because I think you might be getting her hopes up, Jordan. Uh, let's see where this goes. She goes on, she has a stable job and has had it for decades but she has no savings because she spends all of her money and has about $50,000 of credit card debt.

[00:59:10] Jordan Harbinger: Oof.

[00:59:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: She has several loans against her retirement accounts too. She's also very quick to anger for things like, someone not agreeing with her or someone asking her to clean up a mess she made. She'll go into a state of fury that lasts hours, in which she insults everyone, breaks things and sometimes, assaults people.

[00:59:29] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. So she's just a tornado. Poor woman. Obviously, some serious mental health stuff going on here. You mentioned a personality disorder. That definitely fits.

[00:59:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude. Just imagine having this as your mom. This is quite a burden. Must be so hard. So she goes on, she also dates abusive, dangerous men.

[00:59:47] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: And will ignore all red flags. For example, her most recent boyfriend confessed to wanting to kill all of his exes.

[00:59:54] Jordan Harbinger: Oof.

[00:59:55] Gabriel Mizrahi: But she doesn't think she's at risk because the relationship ended amicably.

[00:59:59] Jordan Harbinger: Ooh. Okay. Well, maybe it sounds like you're not her type after all, Gabe.

[01:00:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, bummer. Huge bummer.

[01:00:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I got excited for you too.

[01:00:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, I know. It's my fault really, for getting my hopes up.

[01:00:10] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly.

[01:00:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: So she goes on, she doesn't sleep often, and she doesn't want to see a psychiatrist or take medication. Super interesting. I was actually wondering like, what's her diagnosis? Not sleeping a lot, does fit with a few labels we've heard. I do wonder if she might be kind of manic but whatever. Labels are secondary. So the letter goes on, although I'm not very close to her, I worry about what will happen to her as she continues to age. And especially, what will happen to her after my grandmother dies and her house is sold. I don't have the emotional capacity to live with her and take care of her. I have OCD and lifelong depression myself. But I'm certain that none of my other siblings will step in and I can't say I blame them. I'm afraid she'll end up homeless or be killed by somebody. What do I do for my mother here? Do I owe it to her, to support her in some way? Or do I let her figure this out on her own? And whatever happens, happens. Signed, Bail and Let My Mom Flail or Manage Her Details So She Doesn't Go Off the Rails.

[01:01:09] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. This is quite a story. What a character to put it lightly. I am so sorry that you grew up with a mother like this. I mean, what she did to you and your siblings, I mean, what's even the word for it. It's horrifying, it's disturbing. The legacy of a childhood like this must be enormous. And I'm also, sorry that you guys have to live together now. I'm sure that being in the same house with her is the last thing you want. This is truly tragic stuff and I'm very sorry you went through this abuse. Which is why, again, I am so happy to hear that you're in therapy and that you've stuck with it for so long. Good call.

[01:01:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Again, I'm so interested in the parallels with question one, that you can even think about forgiving your mother, is remarkable. The woman from question one had a similar empathy for her sister. The fact that she can empathize with her mom even a little bit after what she did to her, just says so much about our friend here.

[01:01:59] Jordan Harbinger: Sometimes when I hear stuff like this, I'm like, okay our listeners are way better people than I am. Because I don't know if I have a fraction of this empathy. For a parent who abused me and literally threatened to kill me with a knife. I mean, y'all are amazing. That's all I can say. I think I would've just been like, "No contact. Bye." Again, we wanted to run this all by an expert, so we reached out to Dr. Erin Margolis, clinical psychologist and friend of the show.

[01:02:21] Soundbite: I'm also known to the people who know me the best as the f*cking doctor. [Analyze This - Ben Sobel]

[01:02:27] Jordan Harbinger: And Dr Margolis, as you can imagine, had the exact same reaction. She was deeply saddened and moved by your story. And her heart goes out to you for what you've been through. She's also thrilled that you're in therapy, of course. But that goes without saying, I have to imagine that parents like this — well, they literally keep her in business. So, Dr. Margolis also found it remarkably kind of you to feel like you need to do something for your mom. She also wondered why you feel that need. Now, you'd probably say, "Well, it's because she's my mom." And her question to you would be, "Has this woman ever really been motherly to you? Has she been responsible for you? Has she shown up for you and your siblings In the most basic of ways, as a reliable and caring parent? What your letters really getting at is, what do we owe people who are family but who have done a serious harm? It's a really good question and it's a complicated one. Dr. Margolis shared a thought with us that might help you navigate it which was, a lot of people think, that if someone is your family, you put that above everything else. You sacrifice yourself. You're selfish if you don't. But The reality is, eh, this woman might be your relative but she might not be family, as you get to define it. And I got to say, I totally agree. That's an important distinction here. Why should we be stuck with these people, that you know, came out of the same womb or whatever.

[01:03:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it's a great distinction. I also think it's really hard to measure what you quote, unquote, "Owe a parent" like this. I mean, I'm sorry to be so blunt, but when you get down to it, she chose to give birth to you and your siblings and then she apparently, treated all of you abominably. So, I kind of find myself wanting to say, "What do you owe your mother for, exactly?"

[01:04:05] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I think that's right. Forcing you into a childhood, where you have to hide the knives and have the cops on speed dial. Or you have to spend nights at a neighbor's house, so she can go party and worry about whether she'd drunkenly crashed the car on the way home. What?

[01:04:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, what has this woman done to deserve your love, and your loyalty, and your sense of duty, especially now, as an adult?

[01:04:25] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Dr Margolis posed what she thinks is a more important question right now, what do you owe yourself? What do you need? And also, what is your motivation, exactly, in wanting to protect and save your mom? It sounds to me, like the idea of not protecting her brings up a lot of guilt for you and I — hey, I can appreciate why. Absolutely. But Dr Margolis question there was, "Do you feel guilty because you're actually doing something harmful? Or because you've probably been conditioned to take on responsibility and blame for that matter. For other people's emotions and behaviors for most of your life. When you said that your mom turns things around on people, that she plays the victim, that she explodes when somebody disagrees with her, or asks her to clean up a mess she made, I can just imagine how a parent like that probably created a dynamic where you felt responsible for her.

[01:05:15] Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:16] Jordan Harbinger: You might have gotten the message, "Oh man, I need to take care of mom. If something goes wrong, it's probably my fault. I need to make sure she's okay." Even if you also intuited on some level, that that was wrong, and that she had some serious problems. So this theme of responsibility, a hyper developed sense of responsibility. I think that's at the core of your story.

[01:05:36] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. I'm very curious to know what happens when you imagine not taking on that responsibility in the same way. I mean, beyond these very terrible outcomes that you're picturing, you know, her being homeless or being killed by somebody. How would you feel? What would you need to wrestle with? Or come to terms with if you said, "You know what, I'm not going to save mom. She needs to figure this out for herself."

[01:05:57] Jordan Harbinger: That's definitely a question I'd explore. Because I think this obligation might be a way to avoid having to come to terms with some difficult truths about you and your mom.

[01:06:06] Gabriel Mizrahi: I also find it interesting that her other siblings won't step in. And she can't say she blames them, but then she still feels this impulse to be the one who saves her mom.

[01:06:14] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that was interesting. Like, why should it be different for your siblings?

[01:06:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. I mean, if she doesn't blame her siblings for not stepping in, why is she not holding herself to that same standard? Or prioritizing herself in the same way.

[01:06:26] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Her siblings get to have boundaries but she doesn't? That's kind of what it sounds like.

[01:06:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dr Margolis dropped a pretty intense truth bomb on us which was, In her experience, when it comes to personalities like this, "No matter what you do, you cannot save them."

[01:06:41] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: Now, that doesn't mean that they're ultimately unsavable. But if they're going to turn their lives around, they have to be the one to do it. If your mom is unwilling or unable to see a psychiatrist, and get medicated, and take her medication consistently, and work on herself, and mentor relationships, and come up with a financial plan, et cetera, et cetera. If she keeps making these choices, basically, nothing you do or say will change the course of her life, especially at this point. And sadly, I think trying to care for your mom in her old age is going to be torture for you. Just you've painted quite a picture here and I can just see you jumping through hoops, and bending over backwards, and spending all of your waking hours, and also probably a lot of your sleeping ones, making sure that she is okay. I'm afraid that the person who's going to be the most harmed by that obligation is you.

[01:07:29] Jordan Harbinger: Plus, I think you might just be rewarding and reinforcing the manipulation, if your mom is hoping that you're just going to save her in this way, every time.

[01:07:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And there was also a pattern of other people stepping in and saving mom, right? Like, even now, she's living with her mother because she struggles financially. I mean, again, this theme of responsibility and who gets to take care of whom, just keeps coming up again and again. Now, I say all of that but I also understand that your mom is deeply unwell. She's out of control. She's putting herself at serious risk and that is tragic. And again, we can have empathy for that. But having empathy for your mom does not mean that you need to be the one to save her. Certainly, not at your own expense. So, Dr. Margolis main insight, surprise, surprise, is that you need extremely strong boundaries with a person like this. And it is so hard and it is so uncomfortable, it's incredibly painful. I mean, this isn't even my mom, Jordan. And it's hard for me to think about what might happen to her one day.

[01:08:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[01:08:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: But, you have painted a vivid picture of — frankly, a dangerous, hurtful, manipulative woman on multiple levels. And the only reasonable option I see here, is to protect herself from her.

[01:08:42] Jordan Harbinger: I agree, completely. Hey, but let's also remember that forgiveness doesn't mean allowing an endorsing certain behavior, right?

[01:08:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[01:08:48] Jordan Harbinger: So she can forgive her mom for being who she is and also maintain these boundaries. Keep her distance. Hold her mom accountable. Forgiveness and boundaries, not mutually exclusive.

[01:08:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that's a very good point. And Dr. Margolis actually dropped another banger on us here too. She pointed out that there is a difference between, caring about someone and caring on behalf of someone. So caring about your mom might look like, "I really don't want my mom to become homeless or get hurt one day. I understand that she's in pain. I would be devastated if she ended up in trouble. But I can feel that and I can maintain my boundaries in order to protect myself. Maybe, I'll emotionally support her from a distance but getting involved is going to compromise me so, I just can't do that." Carrying on behalf of your mom would be, "I really don't want my mom to end up in any kind of trouble, so I'm going to change my behavior, and reorganize my life, and take on the work that she should be doing, in order to manage her outcomes and her experience." These are two vastly different models of caring. This is why you need good boundaries, to stay out of the second type.

[01:09:54] Jordan Harbinger: For sure. Yeah, type two caring? No bueno.

[01:09:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: No. Type one Caring, que bonito.

[01:10:00] Jordan Harbinger: Ah yes. The que bonito spectrum of emotional caretaking. How could I forget?

[01:10:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: Trademark, copyright, et cetera, et cetera.

[01:10:08] Jordan Harbinger: Candidly, my take on whether you owe it to your mom to save or support her, is hell no. This woman harmed you egregiously, aggressively, unapologetically on so many levels. Yes, she's mentally ill and that's tragic. That complicates the picture for sure. But that doesn't mean she isn't responsible for her behavior at all. For at least trying to take care of herself.

[01:10:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: No. And it definitely doesn't mean that what she did to you wasn't very impactful, and that matters to you.

[01:10:34] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. So I have to wonder, what makes you think you owe her very much? Other than the programming she's probably instilled in you to prioritize her wins, and moods, and problems, and music videos. You mentioned that you struggle with OCD and depression. Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Again, I'm pretty amazed that you're functioning as well as you are. It's quite incredible. By the way, Dr. Margolis had an interesting insight about OCD, specifically. OCD is often about control, okay? She wondered whether this question about whether to take care of your mom, is also about wanting to maybe control some of her chaos. Maybe wanting to control some of the anxiety you feel. The depression is meaningful too. We talked about this on the show a bunch. How depression can be a defense against feeling certain emotions. It can numb you. So Dr. Margolis had an interesting question, "Is it possible that taking care of your mom might also be a form of avoidance? A way to stave off all the things you'd have to feel, if you acknowledge that you can't save your mom and you just took a healthy step back."

[01:11:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's almost like, if you feel guilty, then on some level, that keeps you engaged with mom.

[01:11:38] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: It keeps you connected to some kind of hope for her. It might, in your mind, prevent these tragic outcomes that you're so afraid will come to pass.

[01:11:45] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[01:11:45] Gabriel Mizrahi: But ultimately, Dr. Margolis has helped us see that. All of that. Just means that the guilt is probably protecting you from having to feel some very important grief about your mom, right now.

[01:11:56] Jordan Harbinger: Right. I mean, for one thing, she's grieving the mother she never had and she's probably grieving parts of her childhood that were lost in this abusive dynamic.

[01:12:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: I would also say, she's probably grieving parts of herself that exist because of this childhood.

[01:12:08] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: The trauma, the fear, the anxiety, the depression. Even this extreme sense of obligation. To quote Dr. Margolis one more time here, "We have to grieve what has been, and what will never be."

[01:12:21] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, man. That is absolutely true and it can be very painful. But as we talk about all the time, you can't get to what's on the other side without moving through that grief. What's on the other side, is either a boundaried relationship with your mother or no contact at all. But on a very practical level, I would definitely try to figure out somewhere else to live.

[01:12:39] Gabriel Mizrahi: For sure.

[01:12:39] Jordan Harbinger: Because living in a house with your unstable, dangerous, wackadoodle mom. With her hundred tarot decks and stacks of parking tickets. By the way, if you're psychic, can you not avoid a parking ticket? "They're going to give me a parking ticket. Maybe I'll park somewhere else." Like, that's all the evidence you need that you're not psychic.

[01:12:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point.

[01:12:53] Jordan Harbinger: Come on, man. Anyway, the questionable woman who made your mom kind of kooky in the first place, right? She also lives there. I mean, this is not a healthy living arrangement, for Christ's sake.

[01:13:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: No it's not.

[01:13:03] Jordan Harbinger: You need distance from these ladies. Physically, emotionally. You need to build a life that is safe, that is truly your own. So your big project right now, is putting together a plan and taking small steps every single day, to get back on your feet and become independent. That would be a game changer. You can find other roommates, okay? You can roll the dice on just about anybody and it's going to be a better living situation, okay? I hope you get there one day soon. I hope you find some peace with your mom situation. And that'll mean bearing a great deal of sadness along the way. But hey, the reward for bearing that sadness is freedom, clarity, integrity. You deserve all that too. Sending you a big hug and wishing you the best. Big thanks as always to Dr. Margolis for her wisdom and advice. Dr. Margolis is seeing patients in Los Angeles and virtually throughout California. You can learn more about her and her approach at drerinmargolis.com That's D-R erinmargolis.com

[01:13:55] Okay, what's next?

[01:13:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey guys. I know you talk a lot about conspiracy theories, how to assess them, and how to talk to people who have fallen for them. But I think there also needs to be a distinction made for different kinds of conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theory is a broad category and if we compare the normal low information voter to quote, unquote, "Conspiracy theorists" particularly in the political arena, the conspiracy theorists are often close to correct, several years later. For example, the flat earth theory is not the same as people 20 years ago forecasting a cashless society. It used to be crazy to think that our webcam or our phone could spy on us, and now that's accepted by pretty much everyone. Past so-called conspiracy theories, often turn out to be true and are basically common knowledge. I realize I'm not talking about the dark side of the moon or lizard people. I just want people to remain curious about how things work or how they might pan out, when the media often labels them as conspiracy. I think you should keep up your take on conspiratorial thinking. But like you did with your view of the lab leak hypothesis. I would put more nuance on it and focus on the crazier conspiracies, while still allowing space for listeners to remain curious. Signed, Let's Not Get Hazy About the Difference Between Conspiracy and Plain Crazy.

[01:15:15] Jordan Harbinger: Well, good point. I think you're onto something fair and important here. So first off, obviously, there are different kinds of quote, unquote, "Conspiracy theories." The ones you're open to entertaining are less what I would call, conspiracy theories. And more like wild and speculative but still plausible predictions. They might turn out to be wrong, but they're not just totally bad sh*t crazy. They're grounded in some kind of reasonable assumption. So we could debate whether this sci-fi type stuff is true conspiracy theory or just speculation about the future. Whereas if you said, one day there will be a cashless society because the world is actually run by tech over lords, who want to control the money supply and monitor our every transaction. That starts to become a different thing. Obviously, that has more shades of conspiratorial thinking because now there's this explanation for the prediction. And the explanation hinges on some secretive, nefarious, nebulous plan. Which again, might or might not be true but it's definitely more conspiratorial. But for me, the more useful distinction is, why people come to these conclusions. I'm less worried in who ends up being right about a given conspiracy theory. And more interested in why people think these things and how they arrive at those beliefs. And we've done shows on this stuff before, right? If somebody who designed spy tech said, "Hey these cameras and mics can be triggered remotely and record data to upload." That is far more credible than a guy in a basement with a tinfoil hat and zero tech experience, who thinks that his toothbrush wants to alter his DNA or whatever. And I know that's kind of a cartoonish example but you see what I'm getting at. And there's many examples of this.

[01:16:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: I do hate that you brought a toothbrush into this, but yes, I see your point.

[01:16:52] Jordan Harbinger: Sorry Gabe. I know you love your brainwave-reading Sonicare, as do I.

[01:16:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: I just don't think electric toothbrushes need any bad press. I mean, not after what they've done for our civilization. You know, like show a little respect, huh.

[01:17:06] Jordan Harbinger: Sorry, sorry. But also, congrats on sounding like the craziest person in this segment. Point is, when it comes to evaluating conspiracy theories and the people who believe them, the process matters more than the results. Like they say, a broken clock is right twice a day. So I agree that somebody saying the earth is flat is a different category of kook. Sorry to those who believe it, by the way. And I don't want to get emails about this. It's a different category of person from somebody who thinks that the government will eventually migrate us to a cashless society so they can monitor transactions. Obviously, because one of those ignores clear well-established observable science. And the other, is a prediction that while speculative, is rooted in plausible facts. But also, because it matters. Whether the person believes in the cashless conspiracy because of data analytics, anti-money laundering, anti-terrorism, behavior modification, consumer trends, et cetera. Or whether they think it's because — I don't know, the Jews who control the banking system are secretly lizard people. And the global elites who run the tech world are building a new world order based on digital espionage and something, something, mind control, mark of the beast, digital panopticon, you fill in the rest. So that's my take. The process of thinking and the basis for belief matter a lot here. Much more than the details of the conspiracy itself. That's a crucial standard to hold when you engage with conspiratorial people. But also, as you decide what to believe yourself.

[01:18:32] Hope y'all enjoyed the show today. I want to thank everybody who wrote in and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out Kashmir Hill on face recognition technology. Speaking of conspiracies, if you haven't done so yet, that will fill your flute. Regardless of what side of the conspiratorial cashless coin you find yourself on.

[01:18:49] The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. This is the circle of people I know, like and trust. And I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six minute networking course. It's a 100 percent free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. It's not going to make you look like a jerk. And you can find it for free on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. The drills takes a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig that well before you get thirsty people. Build those relationships before you need them. Once again, for free, at sixminutenetworking.com. Also our newsletter over there at jordanharbinger.com/news. Wisdom in your inbox once a week. 900 plus back episodes. We dissect and bring out the takeaways. jordanharbinger.com/news. Show notes, transcripts on the website. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm @JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Instagram @gabrielmizrahi or on Twitter, @GabeMizrahi.

[01:19:45] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Campo and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I'm a lawyer, but I ain't your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Payne. Dr. Margolis input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature and does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time.

[01:20:29] You're about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show with Yasmine Mohammed. Who grew up under the tyranny of radical Islam.

[01:20:36] Yasmine Mohammed: This religion forces people to just get stuck in time. It is the root of so many of the evils that are happening in these countries. This is why we can't progress. We always hear about how the caliphate is coming. How the Islam will rule the world. How Muslims will get rid of the infidels. We're going to kill off all the Jews and Muslims are going to control this whole world. And the whole world will go back to Allah the way it should be. Everybody on the planet will be praying to Allah. These people are indoctrinated into a belief system that turns them into monsters. It erases their humanity. It tells them your basic humanity and what you believe to be right and wrong, you must ignore and you must follow what you are told to do. This is happening in your backyard. And if you don't care about what's happening in Afghanistan, or what's happening in Pakistan, what's happening in Saudi Arabia, then care about what's happening on your own soil, at least. Terrorism is the art of fear and the only way to defeat terrorism is to not be afraid. In the face of these people that are telling you, "You are not allowed to have free expression, you are not allowed to have free speech, you are not allowed to have an opinion, you say, "Okay, watch this. Watch my opinion. Watch my free expression express itself."

[01:22:03] Jordan Harbinger: For more about Yasmin's Harrowing story and her escape, check out episode 748 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[01:22:12] Thanks again to Nissan for sponsoring this episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show. Learn more at nissanusa.com.

[01:22:19] Adam Carolla: Hey, it's Adam Carolla. Not sure if you heard, but I do a podcast. Monday through Thursday, wherever you listen to podcasts. I team up with the very best comedians in the world. Plus, critical thinkers, and all around nut jobs and offer my personal insight on current events. The state of the nation and the stories you may have missed. As the world gets crazier every day, you can stay fairly sane. I'll keep you there. I'll handle the crazy. Nuance is often lost on today's world, but you can find it right here. Available wherever you listen to Finer podcast. I'm Adam Carolla and I approve of this message.