1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday

1075: Kids Being Curious or Something More Serious? | Feedback Friday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback. Friday producer, the can of compressed air clearing out the crusty detritus from the cracks in this keyboard of life advice Gabriel Mizrahi hitting those ks hard at the top. That's right, man. You know, I wish I had a soundbite of, remember that girl who was on my strange addiction and she used to inhale the air duster, and she's like, I'm walking on sunshine.

Well, what made you think of that? Because she was inha that can of compressed air. She used to inhale all that duster. Oh, was it duster or was it

[00:00:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: the, um, whipped cream from the supermarket?

[00:00:35] Jordan Harbinger: No, it was like keyboard duster. Oh, yeah. And she would just inhale it and like her mom, I think, filmed her to like, show her what she looked like when she was high.

It was really tragic actually, though. She made a full recovery and is like happily married now from what I understand. So, so we can laugh about this

[00:00:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: unexpectedly happy ending to that story.

[00:00:50] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah. She straightened her ish out. I mean, it's, it's crazy to see people using stuff like inhalants. I don't know how we got on this topic so early in the show.

It's gonna get heavy later. That's not what the beginning is for. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

During the week, we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, former jihadi, arms, traffickers, mafia enforcers, astronauts, neuroscientists. We had Scott Galloway, author of Algebra of Wealth, not just on investing, but how wealth actually builds career advice. Great for anyone at any age, any stage of their career.

Scott and I often go, well off book, off the book that he writes because I always have great questions for him. We always have a great conversation. Always a good episode with Scott Galloway. Also, we had a skeptical Sunday, last Sunday on fluoride. Fluoride in the water. Namely on Fridays though, we take your letters, offer advice, dredge up super weird stories from our highly questionable pasts.

Speaking of which, Gabe, did I ever tell you I witnessed a double murder in Panama. I'm sorry, what? Yeah, it was, so this made national news double murder in Panama? Yeah. When I was working at the embassy in Panama. This is like in 2002. There's so many weird things and we haven't even gotten gotten into the story.

Yeah. Hold up, hold up, hold up.

[00:02:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Wait. Why were you working at the embassy, first of all?

[00:02:10] Jordan Harbinger: So I, I had an internship there and I ended up working with like these anti narco people. Sure. All that I did was book travel for Panamanian officials to go to Las Vegas and party. Okay. And attend meetings, air quotes with people from Washington DC who the whole thing was like, please cooperate with us because your country is a massive transit point for cocaine.

And they're like, cool. I think we should talk about this at a five star hotel in Las Vegas for five days. They're like Jordan book it.

[00:02:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting. Yeah. From the streets of Detroit in the nineties, busting people for dime bags to booking hotel rooms for Exactly. Panamanian officials. Okay,

[00:02:45] Jordan Harbinger: so we can stop those dime bags from coming in.

No, it's stop kilos of cocaine and by stop, I mean do absolutely nothing to stem the flow of narcotics. But anyway, yeah, there's an island, I wanna say it's called Bocas del Toro or something like that. It was like a sort of vacation east spot. We went to these islands and we were just walking around. You see this huge crowd of people outside our hotel across the street.

There was sort of like a local bar. And then I noticed like people are screaming and then I saw people standing on the roof of our hotel and like leaning out the window and they're like, guys get in the hotel quickly. You better get out of there. And we were just like, okay, but you're just one floor up on the roof.

So obviously it's not gunfire or anything. And we ran in our hotel and we ran up to where those guys were 'cause they were like hanging out on the roof essentially that was accessible. And we're like, what's up? And they were like, look down there. And there's people fighting and like, this dude just busts out a knife and stabs these two dudes and they just collapse into, into a massive puddle of blood.

Everyone clears out. People are screaming. I go down there later 'cause I'm like, there's two dead guys. Or dying guys in the road. No one comes to help. Of course. And I just see these two dudes, they're just dead. They're, they're, they're dying and they're bleeding out and there's nothing anyone can do.

It's, that is, it's massive, massive trauma. So intense for everybody. Yeah. My God. And then the police came overnight at some point, and not even, they literally just drew chalk around the bodies like they would in a movie from 1945 or whatever. Wow. Yeah. And then they put like little flags of where stuff was, which is funny.

Like, what are you flagging? There's no shell casings, nothing. And then they put like a crappy barrier of tape, but they left all the blood, everything. And I was like, okay. That was insane. Then when we went back to Panama City, the next day's paper was like double murder on Boas del Toro. It just crazy because that was right there and you think, oh, that was kind of a small event.

Then you're like, well, there's two dead bodies. It wasn't that small. Then you see it in the national news and you're like, oh, I saw this whole thing happen.

[00:04:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: That's a tough thing to see in person. Did that like leave a mark or was it just,

[00:04:43] Jordan Harbinger: I will say not really, because here's the thing. Maybe if you see massive combat trauma, like you see someone's head explode 'cause they got shot with a rifle.

Mm-Hmm. Maybe I would have some sort of weird PTSD from that. But when you see people get stabbed, it kind of looks like somebody getting punched in the stomach sort of slowly and then they just fall down and you're like, oh. Or I'm wired like a psychopath and that stuff just doesn't affect me.

[00:05:08] Gabriel Mizrahi: I was gonna say, there's another possibility here.

[00:05:10] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Because I'm just kinda like, okay. I mean, that was a bummer for those guys. I didn't know them. I wanted to try to help them. There was nothing I could do. I mean, the one guy was barely moving, the other guy wasn't moving the mass. They, they would already bled out by the time I got back down there to do anything.

I wasn't gonna intervene when they were fighting. That's for damn sure. Sure. So, I don't know. I don't know if something is wrong with me or if that is just so surreal that your brain is like, well, that didn't look like what I thought a murder would look like. So I'm fine. I don't know. Bit of both. I think.

Bit of both. Mm-Hmm. Yep. Bit of both actually. If anybody out there has seen something crazy like this and it affected them way more or didn't affect them at all, I'm curious about your perspective, because now I'm kind of like, should I have been more affected by this? Because I was 22. It's not like I was grizzly 44-year-old Jordan who's like seeing a bunch of stuff.

I was 22 years old and I was still just like, man, that was crazy. I didn't lose any sleep over that. Really? I swear. Hmm. Which is maybe now more disturbing than I realized. Anyways, all right, we got some fun ones. We got some doozies. What is the first thing out of the mailbag?

[00:06:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Just a heads up, for anyone listening, this first letter deals with some fairly intense stuff, sexual in nature.

It involves some kids, so just keep that in mind. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. My husband and I have four kids. The youngest two, a 6-year-old boy and a 4-year-old girl are best friends and absolutely adore each other. My 6-year-old is very curious about the body and is at the stage where he stares or is very touchy feely.

So we've had several talks with him about private parts being private and how we shouldn't touch anyone's or have anyone else touch his. We haven't had any issues with my daughter, but she does on occasion grab her genitals in public. So we've had to tell her to only do that in private. Recently my husband and I went outta town and had a babysitter stay with the kids.

During our holiday, our sitter called us to let us know that my son had shared that the night before our 4-year-old daughter had come to his bed because she was scared, which they've done before and it's been fine, and asked him to touch her vagina. He said she told him if he didn't do it, she would tell on him and he would get in trouble.

Apparently, she took her pants off and had him rub her vagina several times with his hand. When the babysitter asked her about it, she said she did it and kind of giggled. When my husband and I got home, I pulled my son aside and he told me the same story. I asked how he felt while it was happening, and he told me he felt confused.

I also asked him what his sister did, and he said that she was kind of moaning. I let him know I was disappointed that we had talked about not touching others' privates and he should have gotten the babysitter, but he said he didn't want his sister to tattle on him. He felt very bad about it. I also pulled my daughter aside and asked why she did it, and she said she didn't know.

She just wanted to. I emphasized to her that she cannot do that and gave her the private parts talk all over again. I also asked both kids if they had ever seen anything like that happen or if it had ever happened with anyone else, and they both said no. I found some helpful articles online that mentioned that this might be common and also purchased books on how to speak to kids about it more, but I'm still very worried.

Is this normal behavior for this age or should I be concerned? Is this something that will have an impact on my son's mental health in the future since he's old enough to remember this as an adult? Is this gonna enhance their sexual curiosity in their younger years? Signed sussing out when my daughter did, and worrying that my son might hit the skids when she's just a kid.

[00:08:29] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. That's an intense letter, Gabe. That had to be hard to read. I think

[00:08:33] Gabriel Mizrahi: it's a little awkward, but yeah, I have to say the woman who wrote in has, I think she's being very open and direct and mature about it. So yeah,

[00:08:41] Jordan Harbinger: it's just, it's like, not cringe, but it's kind of like, oh gosh. I don't know. Yeah, it's

[00:08:44] Gabriel Mizrahi: a little uncomfortable to talk about kids and their sexuality.

I agree.

[00:08:47] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, a hundred percent. It's a hard subject to talk about even when you're a parent and you're dealing with it. So yeah, I just appreciate you sharing all this with us. As a dad, this is also really important for me to understand because child sexuality is such a comp, by the way, two words that I was not expecting to put together ever.

It's such a complicated topic, and it can be hard to know what's normal, what's not normal, what deserves to be addressed, what to let go. So I appreciate the chance to learn alongside you here. We wanted to consult with an expert about all this. So he reached out to Brad Watts, licensed professional counselor.

Brad specializes in working with families where sibling sexual abuse has occurred. He's also the author of the book, sibling Sexual Abuse, A Guide for Confronting America's Silent Epidemic. So really an ideal expert when it comes to this sort of stuff. And the first thing Brad said was that he was impressed with how you've handled a very difficult situation.

He was also impressed by how directly you confronted such an uncomfortable issue, how you used the incident to continue to teach your kids about appropriate boundaries, keeping open lines of communication. And I second that. This is, as I've mentioned, right at the top, not easy to talk about, especially when it comes to your own kids.

So his take was on the surface. When you look at the age of your children here, this behavior could fall within the range of normal sexual curiosity and exploratory behavior. But there are some aspects to your story that were concerning to him. And the reason Brad explained is that in his experience, when clinicians see sexual curiosity between siblings, they're typically around the same age, which is what's going on here.

There's the fact that your daughter might have been moaning when this happened. There's the fact that your daughter was clearly pushing for this, that she was specific with what she wanted, which seems to be sexual gratification, and your son was clearly uncomfortable with it, but didn't stop. And then there's the fact that your daughter took it a step further when she actually threatened to get her brother in trouble if he didn't continue.

To quote Brad here, there are at least three factors that take this well beyond typical childhood sexual curiosity, and they did make Brad wonder, wonder, I want to be clear, not suspect whether your daughter has been abused or exposed to pornography or something like that and might be engaging in what he called sexually reactive behaviors.

Because given what you shared, Brad did wonder whether someone said similar things to her or showed her certain things or she saw something and that's caused her to now repeat the same behavior with her brother. Who knows, maybe another kid at preschool or daycare showed her some stuff. I don't know.

Brad actually said that he's seen too many of those situations. 'cause I know like you're thinking like where would they have gotten this little kids, man, they get an iPod touch and it's off to the races, especially if they have older siblings. Now I'm heartened to hear that when you ask them if they had ever seen anything like this happen or if it had ever happened with anyone else, they both said no.

But you also can't really fully confirm that right now. And maybe your kids sensed that it was important to say no. So it's still a question mark because again, in Brad's view, the extent of the behavior is kind of not normal for this age. So yes, this is something that could potentially have an impact on your son's mental health down the line.

But Brad also said, we just don't know. It's impossible to say right now. And yes, Brad believed this could enhance your kids' sexual curiosity going forward, but again, he would need more information to really know what's going on. He'd also be interested to know more about your other kids, the older two, their ages, the family dynamics there, if they've had any influence on your daughter, and of course, if anyone else has had contact with her.

Again, Brad's just asking the questions that he's been trained to ask. He's not trying to speculate too much or plant any difficult ideas in your head. It's very possible that nothing happened here. Just something he'd invite you to reflect on. As a parent who clearly cares about her children in Brad's view, this is absolutely worth investigating further and continuing to monitor.

The signs you wanna look for are changes in behavior, any sexualized behaviors, nightmares, stuff like that. So Brad's main recommendation was, be proactive with your kids. Get 'em into therapy. He feels it would be super helpful and important for your son to have that support, learn more about appropriate boundaries, build some skills in communicating those boundaries at home.

And he said that your daughter could greatly benefit from therapy too. Brad would advise looking for a child therapist, somebody with experience and trauma and sexual trauma would be a plus. And he said you might wanna look into play therapy. Specifically Fred said that expressive therapies can really help children express and unlock feelings.

So play therapy, sand tray therapy, art therapy, drama, therapy. These modalities work best with small children and they can be a way to surface any difficult experiences that they might have been through. That could also help her establish appropriate sexual boundaries as well. It could also help shed some light on whether she has in fact been abused or sexualized in any way.

Again, he would be proactive and get both of them in therapy. Super important. Brad's final thought for you. Every child is different, every situation is different. None of this means that your son or daughter is destined to have serious mental health problems as a result. But the best thing you could do would be to get them lined up with therapy, be a safe space for them, work through this experience, and just make sure there isn't anything more serious that needs to be addressed.

If you do that, you'll be doing everything in your power to make sure your kids are all right and they continue developing in a healthy way. So big thank you to Brad Watts for his wisdom and insight here. Check out Brad's book, sibling Sexual Abuse, A Guide for Confronting America's Silent Epidemic.

We're gonna link to that in the show notes along with his website and his Twitter. You know who won't lose his livelihood by making a wildly inappropriate ad pivot this guy. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help. Have you taken a moment recently to thank the people in your life who keep you going?

Those folks who make your day brighter, your life easier. I gotta give a quick shout out to my Better Help therapist. It's easy to think. Therapy is only for big crises, and I, I understand why people have that perception, but it's actually the most helpful when things are steady. I know that's a little counterintuitive, but having a therapist, it means having that support and perspective before things get rough, which can make all the difference, especially in marriage relationships.

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Over at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to feedback Friday.

[00:16:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, what's next? So this next letter is actually a response to a wild letter we took earlier this year from a woman you might remember whose mother was tortured for years by her abuser in the state of New York.

That was episode 9, 8, 5. It was a true feedback Friday nightmare. So the story was awful. Basically, her mom got involved with a total monster, a guy who would not stop manipulating her and targeting her and abusing her. And then there would be these domestic violence incidents. He would get arrested and then he would be released almost immediately, sometimes even the same day, sometimes before she even got outta the hospital.

And then they would inevitably get back together and the violence would continue. And that cycle went on and on for like three plus years.

[00:17:02] Jordan Harbinger: Right. And in her letter she said that all of this was possible because of a new law that went into effect in New York a few years ago where Yes, if somebody can't afford cash bail, they often get released.

[00:17:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. It was supposed to prevent people from, you know, losing their jobs because they're stuck in jail after getting arrested for something dumb like having weed on them or whatever. That was the thinking.

[00:17:20] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. But then this guy ended up burning her mom's house to the ground completely, trying to kill everyone,

[00:17:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: burning the house to the ground with himself, her mother, her grandfather, all of their pets inside.

Hmm. And amazingly, they all survived except for one cat. And that finally was enough for New York State to set bail for this guy for the very first time. And he was eventually sentenced to 12 years in prison.

[00:17:41] Jordan Harbinger: So I remember part of her letter was coming to terms with the fact that she was fairly liberal.

Mm-Hmm. But after going through this experience, seeing the actual consequences of liberal policies like bail reform, she was really frustrated. Mm-Hmm. Because she talked to other liberal people and they'd get uncomfortable or they'd hem and haw trying to tell her that, well, your family's the exception to the rule and you know,

[00:17:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: kind of thing.

Exactly. And she wasn't quite sure how to feel about that. And in the end, New York State ended up rolling back some parts of bail reform to allow judges to consider risk in their rulings, which I think we all thought was pretty common sense. Yeah. So after we aired that episode, we got this letter from a guy named Dan Eichinger on bail reform.

And just so you know, Dan was a public defender in Pittsburgh for over 10 years. He was an appellate attorney, a trial attorney, a trial manager, a trial deputy, a. Now he works as a program administrator in Michigan where he facilitates services and resources to attorneys assigned to represent low income people to improve their representation.

He's also been getting really into criminal reform issues, so he spends a lot of time reading up on the data and the history of our criminal system and writing articles and appearing on podcasts. And he is also helping a nonprofit in their effort to eliminate cash bail in Michigan. So his letter goes.

Hey Jordan, I really appreciate your willingness to add a clarification regarding bail reform on a future episode. The John Jay College Data Collaborative studied the effect of bail reform in New York City, while controlling for a whole bunch of factors, while recognizing that anecdotes involve real people who sometimes experience horrific things far too often, and particularly concerning criminal legal system reforms.

Anecdotes tend to swallow the broader public safety slash policy concerns by failing to offer context, which I'm glad you're willing to give. The gist is that, quote, eliminating bail. For most misdemeanor and nonviolent felony charges, reduced recidivism. There were reductions for any rearrest, 44% versus 50%, and felony rearrest 24% versus 27% over two years.

FYI. Among specific subgroups, recidivism rates varied and he included a link to the full report, which we will link in the show notes. Despite this data, the New York News media often glommed onto frightening anecdotes that mischaracterized their association with bail reform. And then he linked to another report on New York media and bail reform and how journalists cover this stuff, which we'll also link to in the show notes.

Thanks again for your willingness to add context. Signed Dan Eichinger.

[00:20:07] Jordan Harbinger: So this is interesting and it's interesting to me because in our response to the original letter, Gabe, I remember us talking about how important it is to live in the ambiguity and complexity of the real world, right? When it came to those friends who were like, Hmm, I dunno how badly to feel for you.

Your family's the exception of the rule. We were like, okay, well we can recognize that bail reform might be well intended and help some decent people, and these laws are imperfect and have unintended consequences, like enabling a freaking monster to try to kill someone's entire family. Because that matters too and extensively matters more than, you know, letting people outta jail.

I fell on one side of the fence pretty quickly after reading that letter. I

[00:20:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: mean, it's clearly not as simple as bail reform good and cash bail bad.

[00:20:46] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Because sure, someone might be able to keep their job after being caught with a dime bag of weed. Fine. But somebody else's mother and grandmother and pets get murdered by a psychopath and, and an arson.

Right? So Dan's letter to me, that's part of appreciating that ambiguity. We're hearing some interesting arguments for bail reform now, and while it doesn't change the facts of our friend's story whatsoever, I'm still so angry and freaked out for her. Honestly. Dan's letter also challenges the easy narrative of, well, we shouldn't touch bail reform 'cause it's not worth it.

Everyone behind bars is a monster. On that level. I appreciate it. I'll be honest, I still struggle with it, but I appreciate it. And just FYI, I feel very outta my depth talking about this. I'm not a public policy expert by any means. Definitely not a bail reform expert. I'm learning about this topic as I go.

So Dan's main argument seems to be that eliminating bail for most misdemeanor and nonviolent felony charges reduced recidivism. For people who don't know, recidivism is the tendency of a criminal to re-offend. So he's saying, re-arrest rates dropped as a result of eliminating bail from 55 to 44% for all arrests, and from 27 to 24% for felony arrests, which to be honest, those numbers sound fairly modest, but in 11% difference, a 3% difference.

I know that represents thousands and thousands of people whose lives are impacted. And I think we can all agree that reducing recidivism is a good goal. But then I think, well, okay, that's for misdemeanor and nonviolent felony charges. Great. I'm not nearly as worried about those people, but this guy, the attempted murderer from the original letter, he kept getting arrested for domestic violence.

That is a violent crime. It's a totally different category. So how can the law not take that into account? Can we not let violent abusers out of jail if they can't put up bail and let the guy who was busted with fricking shrooms on the subway, can we let that guy go? That doesn't seem crazy to me. That sounds like responsible policy.

[00:22:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: Well, the other premise baked into this argument is reducing recidivism is more important than protecting people who might be impacted by releasing violent criminals, to your point.

[00:22:36] Jordan Harbinger: Well, right, and again, this is where I can appreciate both sides of the argument. On one hand, we lock up way too many people in this country.

Our jails and prisons are overcrowded. They're horrible. It's hugely expensive. It ruins people's lives. The whole goal is for people to get better and stay out of prison. So yes, of course I'm all for reducing recidivism. But then you have a story like the one our friend shared, and it's like, okay, is reducing the percentage of rearrests, especially if the drop in rearrest is relatively modest, is that worth allowing our friend's mom to be murdered by a psycho arsonist?

Abuser? I'm just not so sure about that, and I can totally appreciate the counter argument that we need to work. At the level of statistics. We can't get every single story right, because yes, here we have a mother who was almost murdered by her abuser, who was let out because of bail reform. There are also countless stories about equally real people whose lives were ruined by committing a dumb crime and not having the money to post bail.

So I get that and I'm not dismissing that.

[00:23:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, and that's the hard part about this is that we hear this very vivid story from somebody who is uniquely affected by this kind of reform. But we might not hear the countless stories of people whose lives are completely derailed by going back to jail for something minor.

But he's also saying that the media in New York often play up these frightening stories and then inaccurately associate them with bail reform.

[00:23:51] Jordan Harbinger: Look, he might be right about that. The media can tell whatever story it wants to tell, and these stories are juicy. They're shocking. Right. I can picture the New York Post and the local news playing up stories about how violent crimes in New York are up and how reckless liberal officials are to blame.

[00:24:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Which is probably just as un nuanced and rigid as those liberal folks our friend talked to who couldn't really empathize with our friend's story or, or take it into account when it came to bail reform.

[00:24:14] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. But then I gotta ask, how do we know which stories are and aren't associated with bail reform?

Really? I mean, our friend's story definitely happened because of bail reform, or at least bail reform enabled her abuser to keep targeting her mom because let's remember, her mom also kept choosing that guy on some level, which is part of what was so complicated about the story.

[00:24:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: And didn't she say that she went to a bunch of journalists about her mom's story on your advice originally?

Yeah. And none of them wanted to bite.

[00:24:38] Jordan Harbinger: That's right. So that's fascinating too. So that's another wrinkle here. According to her, certain media outlets don't wanna hype up the connection between violent crime and bail reform. Is it because it's irresponsible to do so? Or is it because it sort of like contradicts a narrative that they would like to push that this thing needs to happen.

But again, at a minimum, we have to admit that at least one, almost tragedy happened because judges were forced to let pieces of crap like this guy outta jail on the same day. I, I, I'll never forget, she said he was often out of jail faster than her mother was outta the hospital. Yeah. After he beat her up.

So, however, the media covers this story, it doesn't change the reality on the ground, which is why hearing people's stories directly like our friend's story is actually so important. All that to say, I really do appreciate this chance to consider the other side of the argument. As you can see, I'm not entirely swayed by it, especially after hearing a story like the one we've been talking about.

But I can also make room for the fact that there's a really tragic and complicated relationship among demographics, criminal behavior, arrest rates, money. The idea that there are two different justice systems in this country. One for rich people, one for poor people. That kind of sucks. I mean, I think everyone knows that that's unjust.

So I feel for the guy who loses his job for stealing a car or whatever, because he can't pay a thousand bucks to post bail. But also he stole someone's car. So like, I don't know, maybe you don't steal a car, bro, and then you won't have this problem. But I also know that those are not the only people who are being let out of jail because of bail reform.

Clearly the system is allowing some actually very dangerous people to slip through the cracks. So my question is, and I invite anyone to answer this for themselves, I honestly don't know the answer. What's more important? Reducing arrests and protecting low level criminals, or protecting victims of violent people?

'cause that's what this seems to come down to. I wanna believe you can do both by having responsible reform, but obviously that is easier said than done and you cannot account for every single case. Fascinating topic. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines.

That makes our job a lot easier. If reckless doctors compromised your friend's mental health, your partner might be hiding a dark past, Ooh, that one hits home. Or your grandparents helped an immigrant with a violent past illegally. Enter the country, whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com.

We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous before we move on our newsletter. Wee bit wiser. People are loving this. Gabe, this is so fun. People hit reply. We start these really cool conversations. This newsletter is a bite-sized gem from us to you, right to your inbox once a week on Wednesday. It is a two minute read.

That's the goal. You can apply it. It's highly practical. Is a great companion to the show. Sign up over at Jordan harbinger.com/news.

[00:27:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, what's next? Hi, Jojo and the Gabrielino. Okay. Wow. As with everything in our home that we have affection for, you've developed nicknames and no complaining sirs. When my 16-year-old was five, she gave us silly names, and my husband and I have been muo and dodoo ever since.

Oh, Dodoo

[00:27:27] Jordan Harbinger: great

[00:27:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: one.

[00:27:28] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I'm honored. You know, I'm honored. I'm glad I'm not doodoo.

[00:27:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: My brother moved near me from several states away, a year before our mother passed of cancer, after helping her through a previous cancer fight solo. Having him here was an incredible gift in terms of logistics, keeping my sanity and emotional wellbeing.

His original plan had been to sell his house from here and then buy locally, stashing his stuff in our garage, and then living with our mom in the interim. It didn't pan out as he missed the hot market and his house needed help. Fast forward over two years, he's still living in the same very small apartment that my mom had lived in, which is rented under my name because he doesn't have the credit score or money for two months rent to get a place of his own.

Our garage is still his storage unit. He's delivering groceries for income. Something he started years ago after the higher ups at his previous company, stole his and his colleague's retirement funds and imploded their company in an embezzlement scheme.

[00:28:25] Jordan Harbinger: Whoa. Okay. That sucks. So he went from a traditional job to like Instacart because his bosses rated the company 401k.

That is horrible. I hope they are in prison.

[00:28:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, me too. Poor guy. What a tough break that is. Damn. She goes on. He has no insurance. He and his wife are either separated or divorced. He's very quiet on the topic, possibly embarrassed, so impossible to know. On top of all of this, he's also the primary caretaker for his adult son with autism and PTSD.

[00:28:54] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man. This guy's dealing with a lot.

[00:28:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: A lot. What a life. My brother is amazingly gentle and patient, but has zero drive and refuses to plan for things or pursue a job that could recreate his past experience. He's also said that he hasn't felt anything since our mom passed. He was very close to her, to the point of possible enmeshment at times, all signs point to depression.

[00:29:17] Jordan Harbinger: You know, it sure sounds like it, and I can't say that I blame the guy. He's shouldering a crazy burden right now.

[00:29:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Generally, I believe that everyone's life journey is their own and we need to seek therapy in our own time. But he seems like a sinking ship that keeps shooing away, life preservers, and he is not the only one on or near his ship.

What do we do? What is within our rights to ask of him without trespassing on his autonomy, and how do we help him take back power over his life? Signed giving my brother Floaties when all he keeps saying is no, please.

[00:29:48] Jordan Harbinger: Well, first of all, I am so sorry that you and your brother had to say goodbye to your mom.

Cancer. Man, it sucks. It sounds like your brother was really there for her and for you in a big way during that period and that that's wonderful. What a gift. I'm sure it was very painful and I truly hope you guys are holding up. Okay, man, your brother is really going through it. He's had some objectively tough breaks.

He's come up against some very real adversity. Having a child with special needs. That is, I don't think anybody would argue that that's, it's gotta be one of the hardest things you can do as a parent care of Mm-hmm. Of a child and somebody with special needs just adds to that amazing workload His company goes under because of the embezzlement where people stole his retirement funds.

So that's massively destabilizing financially, psychologically. It also sounds like he's responded to that adversity in ways that are making it harder to bounce back from in ways that are creating new challenges. So I actually have a lot of compassion for him. This is a lot for anybody to go through. I also hear you when you say, look, I know he's in charge of his own life, but he seems like he's on a sinking ship that keeps chewing away life preservers, and he's not the only one on the boat.

I feel you. And that's a really tough position to be in because how he handles his life, that affects his son, it affects his ex-wife. It obviously is affecting you. So on one hand, yes, you do ultimately have to let him figure this out on his own, in his own time, if and when he is ready. On the other hand, because his decisions and mental health are affecting you and other people in his life, it's absolutely fair and appropriate to speak up and to try to help him.

So the answer to your question is more art than science, more process than solution. I think you need to keep building lots of trust and rapport with your brother if you aren't already. I think you need to make him feel understood by you empathized with not in a performative way. And it sounds to me like you do have some genuine empathy for him, even when he drives you a little nuts.

And it's important that he feels that, and I think you need to invite him to talk about where he is these days. Not just the circumstances of his life, but the feelings that come with it and his overall worldview. 'cause what you're up against with your brother. Oh, it's a lot of things. You're right. He's probably depressed, which might be the result of losing your mom.

It might even predate your mom. He's grieving your mom, which is probably contributing to the depression. Or maybe the depression is a response to the feelings that the grief is bringing up. It also sounds like their relationship was complicated. You kind of mentioned enmeshment. That's there's a whole other layer to your brother.

[00:32:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: It also sounds to me like he's a bit traumatized by what happened at his last company and part of his maybe post-traumatic response is not wanting to be ambitious and refusing to look for a job that could somehow recreate what happened there. Even though that's incredibly unlikely,

[00:32:23] Jordan Harbinger: which I think there's probably so much more to know about that.

I'm sure there's an aspect of that that's self-protection. There's also probably a lot of fear. There's anger, there's cynicism. Mm-Hmm. He might also be so wounded by what happened with those executives, and understandably so, that he's just not even about risking that happening again, which, okay, super unlikely to happen again.

But more just going back to the scene of the crime, so to speak, being vulnerable to people in systems that, at the potential to hurt you again. I get it.

[00:32:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: And again, I suspect that that goes back a long way, not just to the embezzlement, it's what those executives did, plus the entirety of your brother's psychology and life experience, right?

Like this must have hit him uniquely hard. But you know, the biggest thing I'm hearing in your brother is a loss of hope and running outta hope. Man, that is really difficult to overcome in another person. We humans, we can deal with a lot. We can deal with pain, we can deal with loss, we can deal with injustice, but it's really hard to deal with a complete loss of meaning and with a loss of the belief that the future can be different, that it's worth fighting for even a little bit.

That is a feature of depression, of course, but it might also be something apart from his current depression. I think it's probably a combination of mood plus core beliefs, plus worldview, plus inner resources and self-concepts, and together they create a constellation of thoughts and feelings that produce the experience for your brother.

Doesn't matter. Not worth it. Stay isolated. Don't plan, don't talk and just stay safe basically.

[00:33:57] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. She's really up against his nihilism here.

[00:34:00] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And that nihilism, that loss of hope. This kind of like existential d gaf vibe she's getting from her brother. That's very hard for somebody from the outside to rewrite.

It is absolutely something he can work through and overcome, but that's probably gonna be a process that he has to go through and that's gonna be unique to him. It's probably gonna involve a lot of talking, a lot of feeling, a lot of sifting through these years, decades of experiences from the complicated relationship with his mother to the challenges that he's had with his son, to what happened at his company, to losing his mom, processing all of those experiences and ideally coming to a new relationship with those facts and those feelings.

Better inner resources and yeah, a new connection with himself really.

[00:34:43] Jordan Harbinger: Right. That, that sounds a lot like, um, oh man. What is the word for that? Oh,

[00:34:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah. What is that? We nev, it's like we never talk about it, so, right. Oh,

[00:34:51] Jordan Harbinger: therapy. Therapy. That's the word. Yeah. Sorry. It's been a while. It's been almost seven minutes since we've mentioned it, so, so

[00:34:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah.

Clearly her brother would benefit from therapy. She knows that, and because this will probably take some time and some deep work. Yes. Ideally he would go. It's also something he might, might be able to do in conversation with our friend here, if she's up for it and other friends and other family if he wanted to.

It sounds like she is up to that to some degree, but because she's not a professional and actually more importantly because she's part of this family too, it's probably gonna be hard for her to be totally objective and it might be hard for him to fully open up about all of this. So if you did all the things that Jordan recommended earlier, then you could, when the time is right, gently suggest that he talk to somebody.

The message there would be, bro, I can see that you are going through it. You've been through a lot. I know things seem kind of hopeless right now. I would feel the same way if I were in your shoes, but there is a way forward here. You do not have to be stuck if you don't want to be. I believe in you and I know how much you could do if you were taking good care of yourself.

And by the way, this is not just for you, it's also for your son. It's also for your co-parent, your ex. It's also for me. We all need you. I'm here for you. I'm here to listen. I'm here to talk. I'm here to help you in whatever way you need, but I think it would be amazing if you had some support right now.

Have you thought about talking to somebody? My feeling is you're well within your rights to ask whatever you want of your brother, as long as it's coming from a place of genuine love and concern and a desire to see him get better, which it is, that's not violating his autonomy. If you said, go to therapy, or you can't store your stuff in my garage anymore, that's a different thing.

Or if you said, get health insurance, or I'm not gonna talk to you anymore, that would be a different story. Or if you were telling him specifically what to do with his life, that would be a completely different situation. In a different circumstance or at a later date if things get worse, maybe some of that would be warranted, but you're not telling 'em what to do.

You're just saying, I want to tell you what I'm seeing and I want to give you the information I feel you need as somebody who loves you to make the best decision. Absolutely fair and ultimately very kind,

[00:36:49] Jordan Harbinger: totally agree. Ultimately, you're already onto the answer here, which is you can't make him take back power over his life, but you can try to help him begin a process that might lead to more hope, more empowerment.

Therapy's a big piece of that. Relationships are a big piece of that. Some high quality self-help could be a part of it. Exposing your brother to books and talks and influences, not influencers, but influences that are healthy and positive and just being there for him generally and encouraging him to open up to you.

There might be some shortcuts here like making your brother realize he's taken a massive risk by not having health insurance and he needs to get some, or pushing away his ex by self isolating or putting you in a tough position by staying in the apartment when he needs to move his stuff outta your garage.

I'm not saying you should look for ways to be petty or create unnecessary stress in the guy's life, but sometimes we need to be shocked out of our stu a little bit galvanized into making a choice. One choice can lead to another choice, which can lead to more choices and taking action in that way.

Sometimes that brings us back into a real relationship with life and maybe that'll create the momentum he needs to tackle some of the bigger stuff. But I do think that the big process is really gonna come from deep and ongoing work, and that's his work to do. So keep letting your brother know that you love him, that you're there for him.

Keep gently nudging him to a more vulnerable, optimistic place. But while you do that, also keep an eye on your needs, your feelings. 'cause like you said, he's not the only one on this boat, and it might be good for him to see how his way of dealing with things is affecting the most important people in his life.

Doing that without spooking him or shaming him in a way that inspires him to take action rather than shut down further, that's your challenge. It's a tough line to walk, but it's doable. Sending you and your brother a big hug and wishing you all the best. You know what? You won't have to embezzle money from your company's retirement fund in order to enjoy.

Define products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb. You know, if you ever thought about hosting your place on Airbnb, but found it a little bit overwhelming, here's some good news. It's way easier than it seems now. You don't even have to do all the work yourself.

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[00:40:59] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I've been in my current position for over a year, and it's been a strong year so far. My coworkers are good. The work is interesting and rewarding, and I'm up for a promotion in a month, but my 50 person company is bad at communication. When I first started, I was left alone most of the time, and I had to constantly ask for training work, pretty much anything instead of being given tasks and being checked in on.

This lack of communication was made worse by my own bad communication skills at the time because I had the idea it's their job to check in on me, and why do I always have to be stepping up and asking for stuff in a few instances? Not speaking up caused some negative consequences. So I now try to speak up as soon as I can.

I'm also in therapy and I've made huge strides in managing my anxiety, which was crippling my communication skills.

[00:41:52] Jordan Harbinger: Amazing. Great work.

[00:41:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that sounds like huge growth. Well done. So she goes on, for example, a while back I had a client meeting where I was not prepared to go to the client's work site. I had no excuse for it.

Other than that, I forgot one important safety related thing. After the meeting couldn't happen, I immediately called the sales lead who'd been in contact with this client and told him what had happened. The next day I found out that the client didn't want to go through with the job, but my manager and I talked and it all ended well.

I believe I did all I could when I messed up, and I know that immediately telling my company what happened, kept the fallout from impacting me. I even got the chance to make it up to the sales lead when I did a last minute emergency project for another client.

[00:42:31] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, well done. Amazing what Getting out ahead of a problem can do scary in the short term, way better in the long term.

[00:42:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: So I've been doing all I can to improve my communication, but my company is still the same and I'm starting to feel resentful and petty about it. I don't think I have the power or capacity to improve communication across the company right now. A part of me would rather sit on my ass doing nothing because no new work is automatically assigned after I finish my current work.

I don't want to, but I feel like I'm hitting a wall here. I've looked around for other jobs, but I don't have enough experience to be a desirable candidate right now. And the current job market in Canada is bad. The economy is much worse here than in the us So I'm stuck here for the time being. Should I continue improving communication on my part and hope for the best?

Is there a way to make my company communicate better? Are there any other steps I can be taking? And Gabe, can you make me a long sign off? I love hearing your creativity as well as Jordan's annoyance about them.

[00:43:29] Jordan Harbinger: No, do not encourage him. Signed. Oh, here we go. Should I come back in 10 minutes? Yeah, go grab lunch or something.

I should be done in like 30 minutes. Yeah, I'll go grab some sweet green. There's one, two towns over.

[00:43:42] Gabriel Mizrahi: Signed yearning for liberation, but stuck with these expectations that are obscured by miscommunication, which is now driving my fixation on the key to my salvation. Is it more not done? Is it more, is it more personal transformation or surrendering to my aggravation that no one just comes to my workstation and says, here's the information.

[00:44:05] Jordan Harbinger: Wow, that might have been when I'm coming to the realization.

[00:44:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: When I'm coming to the realization that I can't find the motivation to avoid these mistranslations and stop imagining my resignation. Are you done? Yeah,

[00:44:20] Jordan Harbinger: I'm done. Okay. All right. That sign off was more convoluted than this company's internal messaging, but do not get any ideas from this listener. If y'all encourage Gabe's worst tendencies, this show's gonna be three hours long every single week.

[00:44:32] Gabriel Mizrahi: Like 80% sign offs, 20% advice.

[00:44:35] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. With some creepy travel stories sprinkled in. So this is actually a really good question. First of all, like I said, good on you for looking at this situation and going, okay, I can't control the way my company communicates, but I can control how I communicate. Mm-Hmm.

And then treating this challenge as an opportunity to address your anxiety and try things in a new way, which sounds like it changed your results pretty dramatically. That is excellent. Awesome. I'm super proud of you for that. Second, working at companies like this is, it's super frustrating. It's very challenging.

I can almost guarantee that you're not the only person at the company who's struggling with it. Feeling like you're stuck there. That just makes this worse because you'll probably feel very limited and disempowered, and I'm sure that that's contributing to the resentment that you feel. So here's what I would do if I were you.

I think you're gonna have a hard time changing your company culture. There's 50 people working there. That's a big operation. Big-ish, right? It's not like it's an eight person company. You can walk into the president's office or pull everyone into a huddle and be like, Hey guys, I think we can do better at communicating.

Here's how we do it. That doesn't mean you can't flag this with the higher ups and invite them to at least consider it. The way I would do that is, well first of all, I'd casually talk to some of your colleagues and see if they're experiencing the same thing. Like I said, my hunch is that they are, but it's important to talk to other people to really make sure this isn't just a you thing.

And also find out how they're dealing with this communication thing. If it's impacting their jobs as much as it's impacting yours, what they might be doing differently, whether they also want things to change. 'cause that's super valuable information and you might pick up a few clever strategies if you talk to them and they're like, oh my God.

Yes. I'm constantly confused. No one proactively gives me work. I never know what I'm supposed to be doing. It's so stressful. That's great data. There's a version of this where you and your colleagues all go to some of the higher ups and share your thoughts, or you write a brief letter outlining these challenges, or you bring 'em up in an all hands meeting or whatever, and you say, Hey, hey guys, a bunch of us are noticing this challenge in the office.

We wanna share it with you because it's something we feel we can all work on, and if we communicated better, we'd be able to get a lot more done and do much better work in X, y, Z ways. That's totally fair. As long as you deliver it in a spirit of kindness, humility, genuinely wanting to contribute to the solution, whether your leaders will actually do something with that TBD on that, I suppose, and that would be another thing I'd bring up to your colleagues.

When you talk to them, like if we shared this with the higher ups, do you think they would listen? How would they respond? Would this be helpful or would they just brush it off and then turn on us? That'll inform your strategy too. But listen, whether you bring this up with your company or not, I absolutely think you should continue improving communication on your part because ultimately that's all you can truly control.

Even if your company were great at communicating, you'd still need to be great at it yourself. I promise you. There is no workplace out there that is perfect in the communication department. There's always gonna be gaps. There's always gonna be quirks. There's always gonna be difficult. People who create dysfunction that require good communication to address, and you've already done such great work in this department, you're starting to see great results.

You can only make things better by learning to speak up more and push for the things that you need. So my take, treat this challenging company as a gym for your communication skills. Keep building those muscles. Look for the places where you need to seek out work or information, whether that's fair or unfair.

Just put that aside. Think of it as an opportunity, maybe even a gift. I promise you cannot go wrong if you think of things that way. And it'll also help with the resentment and pettiness that you feel right now it sounds like, it feels like this poor communication thing is happening to you, making your job worse.

But if you shift your mindset a little, you can think of it as happening for you and forcing you to navigate your job in a new way. I'd be curious to know what changes if you do that. If you find more progress, you'll feel empowered. You'll feel energized. You might even feel happy to stay. If you don't, you'll know that you did everything you could.

You can take these new communication skills into your job search, your relationship building, whatever job you land next when the time is right.

[00:48:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Excellent advice, Jordan. I totally agree with all of that. Of course, I'm also very interested in this. I'm starting to feel resentful and petty now response and look, I get it.

Working for a company that doesn't manage you well, sucks. It's frustrating, it's annoying, it's confusing, it's inefficient. So I'm with you. It's really interesting, Jordan. Her response to this bad communication is almost stronger than you might expect it. It seems to be hitting her in a unique way. I'm connecting a few dots here that might or might not exist, but it sounds to me like she's not just frustrated that her bosses aren't giving her work and checking in on her.

It's almost like she feels neglected. Yeah. Ignored or something like that. Almost forgotten. Mm-Hmm. Depending on how she interprets this, her bosses are objectively bad at communicating. Or maybe everybody is just so busy that they don't have the time or the resources to check in on everybody. And I imagine that that's going through a certain lens in her, maybe even the same lens that helps create the anxiety that she's been working through.

And it produces the feeling my company doesn't care about me. My company doesn't think that it's worth communicating well with me. And again, I might be reaching here a little bit. So to our friend here, please decide for yourself if this fits. Your response to all of this. Now that part of you would rather sit on your ass and do nothing.

You say you don't wanna do that, but you're hitting a wall. I think that's also very interesting because that sit on my ass response. I wonder if that's not just anger, not just frustration, it might also be a form of protest.

[00:49:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Like if you guys aren't gonna care about me enough to check on me and give me work, I'm not even gonna try.

Exactly. And actually this is funny. It reminds me of this woman that I went to law school with. We all started working at these big law firms, right at this behemoth companies, hundreds of, or even thousands of people. And they weren't giving her the kind of work that she wanted to get, so she just sat around reading Agatha Christie novels all day for months.

I'm talking about the better part of a year. Wow. I remember talking with her over drinks and it was like, wait, so you've been reading murder mystery novels for like eight months? And she's like, I don't care. And how are you still working there? And the answer is, nobody's. They're paying so little attention that when she's like, I can't do this right now 'cause it's the wrong kind of work.

They're just like, oh, okay. We assume you're busy billing hours and they're just not checking. Incredible. Damn.

[00:50:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, you can just be the most impressive person in your book club if uh, you work at a place like that. Exactly. That's actually kind of funny, but you know. Yeah. Maybe your friend at that law firm was just bored and just wanted to coast and she was like, I'm just gonna read if they're not gonna gimme work I care about, but for some people who do this, including our friend here.

There might be a little message buried in that response, and the message might be, I feel ignored. I feel kind of hurt. I feel undervalued. Whatever message that she's hoping her bosses or anyone really will pick up on,

[00:51:04] Jordan Harbinger: I could see that. Although given how attuned these bosses seem to be to their employees, I'm not sure they're gonna get that memo.

[00:51:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, probably not. But that doesn't mean that the wish isn't meaningful, right? The thing she's trying to communicate subtly. I think it says a lot about what our friend here needs, what unique pressure points she has when she doesn't get those things. And most importantly, what she does with these feelings, this anger, which I understand, this frustration, possibly even a feeling of abandonment to some degree, and how she works with those feelings.

Which brings us all the way back to your advice, Jordan, that this is probably on her to address. The top line is yes, over communicate, seek out the work that you need to get. Look for the information and the guidance that you need. That's gonna be key. Underneath that, there's probably a whole fascinating world of stuff that is also yours to explore.

Why being undermanaged and neglected gets under your skin so much, what responses it uniquely provokes in you, how that intersects and maybe even creates the anxiety that you feel sometimes. And also how not communicating well yourself might be both a legitimate response to an objectively dysfunctional situation and inadvertently, perhaps a way to help perpetuate it.

These are great themes to bring into therapy, and it's also a great opportunity to grow as a person because of this really difficult workplace.

[00:52:23] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Yeah, I can totally see that The, the things that annoy us, the things that hurt us, they always, almost always reveal parts of ourselves that we need to work on, right?

Because this workplace, it is obviously dysfunctional. She is being poorly managed, she is being neglected. But one employee could experience that and go, huh, annoying guess I'm gonna have to walk into so-and-SO'S office and say, Hey, what should I be doing? Gimme work, gimme feedback. Tell me where I'm supposed to be.

Or, wow, nobody's giving me work. I guess I better figure this out on my own, make some calls, create my own projects. And another employee might go, wow, no one's on top of me. I guess I'm gonna sit here and do nothing and feel ignored and anxious, or read Agatha Christie novels all day. And the difference between those responses probably points to some really important work that you can do.

My final thought for you is while you work on this communication stuff, I would definitely be reaching out to people in your field. I would absolutely be seeking out the experience you need to be a desirable candidate because like I said, all of this is so much worse because you feel stuck. The economy's the economy.

The job market is the job market. You can't change that stuff, but you can build your relationships with people. I. You can look for the projects or the trainings or the certs that are gonna build your resume. And I wonder if settling for this job you don't love or feeling like you're just kind of stuck.

If that might be another form of that protest that Gabe was talking about. Something to consider. And if you decide to leave, it might take some time to land another job, and that is okay, but that doesn't mean you can't start working towards that now. Working toward it now is how you are gonna land that job.

And if your communication and anxiety stuff is holding you back from doing that foundational work, that is one more great reason to lean into it. I love your curiosity. I love your willingness to be helped. You're doing great. Keep going. We're rooting for you and you got this. Alright, now time for the recommendation of the week.

I am

[00:54:07] Clip: addicted to lit.

[00:54:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: My recommendation of the week is a docuseries called Chimp Crazy. I'm a couple months behind on this. Everybody is talking about this docuseries, but I'm halfway through it now and I am riveted.

[00:54:21] Jordan Harbinger: You're a few months behind. I'm five years behind on Netflix. Try having against, I don't even Squid Game.

What's that? I don't even know. I haven't seen a single episode.

[00:54:28] Gabriel Mizrahi: That makes me feel better. And also, I've sent you this watch list multiple times. Yes, you need to get on it. But basically this show goes into the underbelly of the chimpanzee world. The people who breed them, sell them for huge money, keep them as pets because they're obsessed with them.

It really captures the beauty of chimpanzees and also the real dangers of keeping them confined. It is wild. I don't wanna say too much because I don't wanna spoil anything, but the things that happen in this documentary and the characters they follow are just, Hmm. Chef's kiss,

[00:54:58] Jordan Harbinger: exotic animal people are all a little nuts.

Whenever you hear about somebody who keeps a chimp, it's always like, and then it ripped her friend's face off and the police shot him. And you're like, uh oh,

[00:55:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: okay. I mean, again, I don't want to say anything. Oh, because I've known play anything, but uh, yeah, they're all a little nuts, aren't they? Yeah. And this docuseries was directed by Eric Goode, the same guy who did Tiger King, if you saw it.

Oh, I got it. Did you ever see that, or does that also Tiger King? That was probably the last thing that I watched, yes. Okay, cool. So since the pandemic got it. Yes. So entertaining. This guy has a gift for telling very weird and chaotic stories in a really like, easy to understand, streamlined way. I haven't gotten to the end yet, so I don't even know where this thing is going, but I am hooked.

I'm gonna tell you right now, it is hard to watch at certain points, especially if you love animals, but it is undeniably captivating and you can find it streaming on Max.

[00:55:47] Jordan Harbinger: That whole world is really disturbing. It reminds me of the interview I did with Rachel, newer on illegal wildlife trafficking. Mm.

Fascinating conversation. She ended up posing as an escort and going to this dodgy casino in Cambodia and finding people ordering like Bear Claw on a platter and like pangolins. Horrifying. It is gross. Yeah. Episode 5 45. It might be an interesting companion to this docuseries. Also folks, if you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show.

If you wanna jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes that's over there on Reddit, just search for Jordan Harbinger and you'll see my profile. But you know, skip to the subreddit and interact with us there. Alright, next up.

[00:56:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 22-year-old woman from Zimbabwe and I come from a broken family.

My father has cheated on my mom, and as a result, everything has been chaotic.

[00:56:35] Clip: Daddy Chill.

[00:56:37] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sorry, I've been sitting on that for months. You've been wanting to use that one for a long time. Don't take it personally. Friend who wrote it this? No. No. That was Jordan is soundboard happy today? That's right. My father treats everyone around him poorly because he has a respectable job.

While my mom finds glory in shaming people, she also brags about my achievements to people, but I don't want her to do so, and then she gets angry when I ask her to respect my wishes. They always disrespect each other in front of my siblings and me while trying to show each other whose boss in the house.

They're also not really involved in what I do, and most of the time I do things alone. I always wonder where they'll be in moments when they should show up. Oh man. Oh man. That's sad.

[00:57:16] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[00:57:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel like all of this has contributed to the way I relate with people. Sure. I pushed away people who have shown me love, but I wanna make real friends and be loyal to them.

I'm now worried about myself. I question everything my parents have taught me. All I do is repeat some of their questionable behaviors, and I've grown to hate it. How do I start again in life and learn the right principles, and how do I deal with the fact that I don't want anything to do with my parents once I'm financially independent?

Signed going my own way and feeling deeply dismayed after my parents led me astray.

[00:57:49] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, this is such a sad story. Really tough stuff. I'm sorry that your parents are treating each other in this way. I'm sorry they're relating to you in this way, creating what sounds like a tense home for you and your siblings.

It's really sad that parents do this and I'm sure there are bright spots too, but I get why it's been hard for you and I get why it's bringing up these big questions. I actually love that it's bringing up these questions. So I think there are two ways to respond to the parents you come from. One way is to look at their behavior, their patterns, their values, and go, Ugh, this is sad.

This doesn't sit well with me, but this is just the way it is. I guess I'm stuck with the patterns that they helped create, like this pattern of pushing people away. The other way to respond to your parents is I really don't like a lot of why I see in my house. I can see how this stuff has made me the kind of person I am today, and I wanna do things differently.

I wanna treat people differently. I wanna have more meaningful relationships. I wanna be the best version of myself according to the values and experiences that I find important, which is precisely what you're doing just by asking these questions, which is terrific. So in a way, what's happening at home, it's really tragic and frustrating.

In another way, though, your parents are giving you a very clear model to avoid. They're showing you what happens when you don't treat people well, when you don't really listen to what your children are asking of you, when you don't show up for the people you love. So one great way to chart a different path to learn the right principles as you put it, is to basically do the opposite of what your parents do in these departments.

Treat people kindly, respectfully resist the impulse to diminish or shame people. Don't cheat on your partners. Don't try to one up people or play power games with them. Show up for your friends and family, whether it's supporting them at events or helping them through a tough time or lending a generous ear, whatever that looks like.

And look, you don't need to be perfect at all these things. They might feel a little awkward, a little scary kind of vulnerable, but that's okay. In fact, that is good. Those feelings are signs that you're relating to people in a very different way from your parents, and you're having a totally new experience of the world.

While you do that, I also wouldn't judge the parts of yourself that might look a little like your parents sometimes, for example, sometimes you might catch yourself mentally cutting someone down or being a little cold with somebody who's being nice to you or worrying about where you fall in the pecking order of your office or your friend group.

Just to name a few examples of tendencies that you might have inherited from your parents and also from the culture at large. And if those things come up, I wouldn't do to yourself what you say your mom does to people, which is shame yourself. Like, God, I'm so petty, I'm so judgy. I'm failing to live up to my ideals.

I guess I really am just like them. There's no need for that. I. I would just notice those thoughts. Notice those tendencies when they pop up and go, huh, interesting. All right, there's mom, there's dad. That's the thing I've seen them do a hundred times. There's that old me who defaults to keeping people at arms length, whatever it is.

And then you just have to meet those parts of yourself with a little bit of curiosity and compassion. Ask yourself why they're there, what they might be trying to do for you, whether they fit with your new goals and values. That'll get you a lot further than beating yourself up and condemning them, which is another pattern that you might be in the process of rewriting.

[01:00:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, totally well said Jordan. And on that note, I'm not sure that you need to start again in life. I don't get the sense that you are such a difficult person or such a narcissist, or have your values so backward that you need to like take your personality down to the studs and rebuild it. You're just having a little bit of a healthy crisis about which influences to embrace and which ones to reject and how you wanna show up in the world.

So these right principles are ultimately up to you, but spoil alert, they usually come down to a few simple things in my experience. Kindness, we already talked about that. Empathy, respect, self-awareness, humility, generosity, consistency. You've probably heard us talk about these concepts for a very long time, so there are no big surprises here.

These are just ideas, right? They're important ideas, but they're just ideas. What really matters. What I want to encourage you to focus on is how you embody those ideas. How you show up in the world with them, with other people.

[01:01:43] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. If you wanna lead with kindness, be kind. If you wanna have close relationships, be vulnerable.

Let people be vulnerable with you. If you want to have loyal friends, be loyal. Do what you say, you will show up when it counts. It's not all that complicated, but it does require work and some courage and vulnerability and meeting people and meeting yourself in a new way.

[01:02:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, and about not wanting anything to do with your parents.

Once you're financially independent, I think I can understand why you feel that way given everything you've shared with us. My sense is that you are pretty angry with them right now. You're probably pretty disappointed. You might even be kind of turned off by a lot of what you see, especially when it comes to like how your mom treats other people and how your dad is conducting himself, and the solution seems to be, well, I just have to cut them off once.

I don't have to depend on them anymore. And look, if your relationship with your parents really is that degraded, if they have done a number of things that you didn't even tell us about that have hurt you so profoundly that you just can't be close with them, yes, it's an option. I don't know if it's necessary.

And since that's still quite a ways off, I would put that question on ice for the moment and just focus on everything else Jordan has been talking about. And if you do, you're gonna end up building a very different life, a very different character from those of your parents. And that'll probably give you a whole new perspective and a new set of tools also to deal with your family effectively.

And also, who knows where you will be at that point in time and who knows where they'll be. I mean, look, it's possible they might change or they might soften, or you might soften toward them. It's also possible that their flaws won't activate you as much in a few years. Like for example, your mother's judgments, right?

They might not sting so much. If you have a stronger sense of self, if you have a better grasp of your own values, maybe even if you develop some more compassion for her, I mean, she didn't become this way by accident, right? Or your parents' lack of involvement in your life, that hurts and it might continue to hurt, but it might not be as devastating if you have great friends and wonderful colleagues who show up for you in accounts.

You know, all of these things would be signs of great progress. So while I get the temptation to project yourself into the future and say like, when I have my own income, I'm done talking to these people, I'm over it. Which by the way, that might also be a way to channel your anger right now and maybe self-protect a little bit.

I get it, but you also don't need to do that. Just take it one day at a time and trust that if you focus on developing these qualities that are really important to you, everything else is gonna take care of itself.

[01:04:09] Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Your feelings will settle. Your relationship with your parents will land where it needs to land.

There's productive thinking about the future, and then there's just fantasy and speculation, which usually isn't very helpful. Again, I'm so sorry that you're struggling with your parents these days. I'm sorry for them that they feel the need to conduct themselves that way. I'm sure they're doing their best with the resources and understanding they have.

It sucks, but like I said, it's also showing you the path not to take, and from that perspective, coming from this kind of home is also a strange gift if you know what to do with it, which you clearly do, sending you a big hug, you got this. Go back and check out Scott Galloway and our Skeptical Sunday on fluoride in the water.

If you haven't done so yet, the best things that have happened in my life in business have come through my network, the circle of people that I know, like, and trust. I wanna teach you how to build the same thing in a free course. It's at six minute networking.com free on the Thinkific platform. The drills take a few minutes a day.

It's not something that's gonna take a whole bunch of time. Dig the well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them. It's not schmoozy, it's not gross. It's really super useful stuff. Again, over@sixminutenetworking.com, show notes, transcripts on the website, advertisers discounts, ways to support the show.

All those good deals are over at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also add me on LinkedIn Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi, or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Our advice and opinions are our own. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, however, so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. Here's a sample of my interview with an emerging infectious disease expert that's taking a proactive approach to identify, prepare for, and stop viral threats before they become pandemics.

Here's a quick look. Inside

[01:06:12] Clip: diseases are a reminder just how vulnerable we are to losing everything. Just imagine what the world's going to be like. If 500 million people in the space of six months die, the world will change dramatically. The truth is that these are deadly events. The societies we live in today that we take for granted will be a footnote in history.

500 years from now, the architecture that we surround ourselves with, they will be ruins or forgotten. A thousand years from now, increasing population and encroachment and wildlife is accelerating the rate at which new emergent viruses will spill over into people. It's not a question of if there will be epidemics, there will be pandemics, but that inevitability should strike a measure of fear into our hearts.

If we stop at being fearful, then we've missed the point. The fear should then trigger us to act. We should take measures. Anticipate what the meaning of a future epidemic and pandemic might be and put in place the kind of preparations that minimize the consequences We really have to drive the equation forward, a world prepared as a world that will thrive and live for a long time

[01:07:41] Jordan Harbinger: for more, including why a future influenza epidemic is not a matter of if, but when, and why Vaccine hesitancy is one of the top 10 health threats in the entire world.

Check out episode three 20 of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Dennis Carroll.