985: Lives Are at Stake in Bail Reform’s Wake | Feedback Friday

985: Lives Are at Stake in Bail Reform’s Wake | Feedback Friday

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[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with feedback. Friday producer, a guy who's really going through it this week, so I'm gonna spare him his usual roast today. Gabriel Mizrahi. Thanks, man. I, I appreciate that. Yeah, dude, I'm so sorry. We'll get into what's going on in a second here.

[00:00:20] But first on the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. So our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

[00:00:34] And during the week we have long form conversations with people who will have help you do that. Folks like drug traffickers, former jihadi, gold smugglers, astronauts, hackers, CEOs, and other amazing folks. This week we had Susan Casey on just a fascinating insight into the oceans. We talk about everything from undersea mining to sea life to shipwrecks, who doesn't love shipwrecks?

[00:00:54] Also, coming this Sunday, we got a skeptical Sunday coming up, and it's about porn. You perverts, so you're gonna wanna check that one out. Comes out on Sunday. On Fridays though, we tell stories, take letters, offer advice, and make room for the the impossible, the mysterious, the absurd, I guess. So on that note, Gabe, you want to fill everyone in on what's going on?

[00:01:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Sure, yeah. Thank you. So yeah, if you've been listening to the show for a little while, you know that my cat, Drake, who's the, uh, the first cat I adopted on my own, my, my little homie, he ended up living with my mom for a variety of reasons. Mm. But one day, about a year ago, he went missing, and I talked about on the show, if you haven't heard that episode.

[00:01:34] Very weird. And long story short, he disappeared one day while my mom was renovating the guest bathroom in her apartment. She lives on the fifth floor of a building and we spent four, four and a half frantic days looking for him the worst four days of my life. And then we finally put it together that the contractor accidentally sealed him underneath the floorboards while he was working.

[00:01:56] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-Hmm.

[00:01:56] Gabriel Mizrahi: So, yeah, we tore up the concrete and luckily we found him alive. Super skinny, but alive and totally fine. Yeah. One of the greatest days of my life. So, uh, I'm very sad to say that a couple weeks ago, Drake disappeared again and he's been missing for two or three weeks now, as of this recording, when this comes out Mm-Hmm.

[00:02:19] It might be a couple more weeks, I guess, if we don't get any news, and I gotta say, this time we have no idea what happened. It is so bizarre. We have no good theories. We have no leads. It is a total mystery how he got out or where he went. It's like he vanished into thin air, except of course he didn't. I know there's some explanation, but all of the theories we have are just so remote, so insane.

[00:02:42] They just don't make any sense. So

[00:02:44] Jordan Harbinger: yeah, I think it was like, oh, maybe he hid inside the couch and then the workman carried out the old couch and he didn't jump out the whole time and then he didn't jump. Like it's almost like too farfetched. Yeah, far more fetched than him going into a hole and nobody noticing.

[00:02:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. So the one weird thing that happened, which we th, I mean, it's the only unusual variable, so I feel like it has to be related to this somehow, is that my mom got two new couches that was on a Friday, and then on Saturday the following day, she had some people come to the house and take away the old couches.

[00:03:13] So obviously it must have something to do with the couches. Right? But I don't wanna bore everybody with every detail, but like we have pretty much confirmed that there's no way he could have been in the couch, on the couch. There's just, we looked at security camera footage of the people coming and going, there's no cat in sight.

[00:03:28] We have explored the weird theory that he somehow got out the front door, went into the neighbor's house where they were renovating, we explored that fully. He's not there. He's not underneath the floorboards there, so he must have gone out the front door or the balcony door, which he's never done. And he hates the outside, which is part of what doesn't make sense.

[00:03:45] But if he did that and then disappeared, he would've had to jump five stories down to the ground. Mm-Hmm. Which he has never tried to do, and I don't even know. But if that's what happened, then he might be injured or he might have made it and wandered around. Anyway, we are doing everything we can to find him.

[00:04:03] Like everything, I mean, everything we did last time and more, you know, we're posting on all the websites. We're setting traps in the building and around the neighborhood. Can't believe I'm back in my unlicensed cat trapper era. But we've even consulted with a pet detective, who, by the way, Jordan, I have to tell you.

[00:04:20] This pet detective is named Landa Cold Iron. Okay. Is the greatest name Yeah. For a pet detective ever. I, you can't make this stuff up. It sounds like she's been very helpful. Ace Ventura's partner in pet detection. Totally. In the sequel. Yeah. She's so on top of it. She's very good. She's been advising us, but uh, yeah, sadly, I don't, I don't know.

[00:04:40] I don't know. I can't explain. I, I feel very sad. I'm very confused. I don't have super high hopes that we're gonna get him back, but they say that we have to keep trying for months, potentially before we get him back. If we get him back, so,

[00:04:52] Jordan Harbinger: huh.

[00:04:52] Gabriel Mizrahi: Anyway. Yeah, man, we are, we are just so heartbroken about this.

[00:04:57] You know how much I love this cat Jordan and my whole family loves this cat. Now all of our listeners love this cat because of the story I told last year, and I don't know, I don't know if this is goodbye. I don't know if he's, maybe if he died somewhere or if he found a home and somebody picked him up.

[00:05:12] 'cause he's so sweet and awesome and they have a great new cat and he's okay. Or if he's on the street, but he is scraping by. We just don't know. But. Yeah, my heart is very heavy and I go through periods of being extremely sad and then other periods where I'm like, you know, it's not over, we might find him.

[00:05:26] But I just wanna share that with everybody because we talk about our lives on the show and you guys were so amazing the last time this happened with Drake. And yeah, like I said, if you have any solutions whatsoever, I am all ears. So thank you in advance for that.

[00:05:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I'm really hoping he finds his way home.

[00:05:41] Gabe, Jen and I used to have cats. We know how awesome they are. So it's, sorry, I'm just really sorry that you and your family are going through this again, and that you've had to set up a North Korea level surveillance state in your

[00:05:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: neighborhood to try and find

[00:05:52] Jordan Harbinger: them. Yeah.

[00:05:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: But thanks man. Thank you. And by the way, if I seem a little down today on today's episode of My voice is Weird.

[00:05:59] This is why I'm just like, is it not? Because you were wearing a

[00:06:01] Jordan Harbinger: blouse during your job interview.

[00:06:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm glad you brought that up actually. And that might have something to do with it. Uh, yeah. A bunch of you wrote me after our April Fools Day episode, and you told me that the, um, silk Vermilion shirt I wore to that interview with the buttons on the wrong side was almost certainly a woman's blouse.

[00:06:21] Yeah. So, yeah, in addition, I was like, I got like five of these emails and at first I said, I know this was a man shirt. It was just a manufacturing defect. But the more I think of it, oh yeah, why would there be a manufacturing defect like that? So yeah, in addition to wearing the worst possible suit to that interview, I was also apparently cross-dressing.

[00:06:40] So thank you. Thank you all for pointing

[00:06:42] Jordan Harbinger: that out. I, I think it's just fun. Every time I got one of those emails, it's like, surely other listeners have pointed this out, but I'm thinking it's a woman's blouse. I'm like, I could reply to this, but it's way more fun for me to hit forward and send that to you again for the third time in an hour.

[00:06:56] Or fifth, you know, 13th time in an hour or whatever it is, and be like, here's another guy who also thinks you're wearing a blouse. Here's another lady who knows you're wearing a blouse. It's definitely not a manufacturing defect. People who make clothing probably make like a hundred items of that clothing per day.

[00:07:10] More sure. Right? Of course they're making a thousand, sewing the button. A thousand blouses a day. You think that person didn't notice they were putting him on the wrong side. Zero chance of that. This is, this person can do that in

[00:07:22] Gabriel Mizrahi: their

[00:07:22] Jordan Harbinger: sleep.

[00:07:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: A lot of it makes sense. Like it was a little baggy. A little flowy like Mm-Hmm.

[00:07:27] It was like, why is there so much room in the chest? Yeah. It was not a form fitting shirt. No. It's like something Russell brand would buy. Exactly. You made an already embarrassing story. Even more humiliating guys, but I love it. So thank you. Thank you for that.

[00:07:39] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Thank Gotta hand it to the fans for keeping it real and roasting Gabe for his ridiculous attire, which is one of our favorite past times.

[00:07:45] But that's what you get for wearing a shirt that's not just red but vermilion. Alright, doozies. Even more doozies. Hopefully some lighter ones too today on the show. Let's dive in.

[00:07:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, so four and a half years ago. This was in October of 2019, and this was also before I joined the show. A listener wrote into Jordan and his old producer Jason, with the following letter.

[00:08:07] Hello Jordan, Jason and Jen. I recently discovered your podcast and have been absolutely binging. I love the two part interview with Steven Hassan about combating cult mind control, but never in a million years thought I would have any practical use for it unless a friend came at me with some cancer curing essential oil.

[00:08:24] That was until I got a call from my little sister saying that my mother had almost been murdered by her new boyfriend. I flew to my hometown the next day. I was able to stay for four days. We were in hiding. Part of the time. I nursed my mother back to health, arranged for the locks to be changed, fed her, contacted legal resources, and once we were able to return to her house, cleaned it top to bottom from the bloody mess he made.

[00:08:50] Jeez, and found evidence the police missed. During this time, I expected my mother to be scared, angry, and out for revenge. But shockingly, she defended her boyfriend in language I can only describe as having been brainwashed. She said things like he was only like that when he was drinking, or we had such good times together.

[00:09:09] I was at my wit's end that this previously strong independent woman had been trained to think like this. In just a few short months, I wanted to scream. I suddenly remembered the Stephen Hasan podcast. I began using some of the tactics he described, like asking layers and layers of questions. For example, when she discovered he had stolen money from her, I would counter, oh, did he steal when he was drunk too?

[00:09:32] I slowly chipped away at all. Her justifications never screamed, never yelled, never made her feel too stupid. After four days, she was able to see that this guy was never any good and had been manipulating her the entire time to take advantage of her. So with all my heart, thank you. Now, from what I've described, you would think that this guy has been locked up.

[00:09:53] Yes and no. He was arrested at my mother's house after a welfare check was called. So the police saw everything with no time for him to hide what he had done, despite that he was released later that night. Geez. I'm told that this is because of a new law going into effect in my state where if someone can't afford cash bail, they just sort of get released.

[00:10:15] It's supposed to prevent grave consequences from trivial crimes like losing your job because you're stuck in jail after getting arrested for something like weed or attempted murder.

[00:10:24] Jordan Harbinger: But you know, whatever. We we're working out the deal. We're ironing everything out.

[00:10:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: Jeez. He will eventually be arrested again once the DA feels their case is in order.

[00:10:33] So he won't escape the law. But my family feels seriously let down by the justice Department because until then he's free and we have no idea where he is. He can easily try to finish what he started. What on earth can I do to try and make sure this law does not get used as a loophole for future families?

[00:10:52] Signed, taken a break from two crime podcasts,

[00:10:55] Jordan Harbinger: right? So of course I remember this story and Jason, and my advice with Dr. Hassan's input was basically, okay, this guy's clearly dangerous, possibly slash probably a sociopath, and this is just much more than an alcohol addiction. We wanted her to get her mother into counseling contact, A A RP fraud watch, which is somebody who could potentially help with her identity theft and money stuff.

[00:11:17] We also wanted her to check out Dr. Hassan's webinar on combating cult mind control techniques. One idea that I thought was particularly interesting was interviewing her mom, recording it with video so that if this guy ever decides to come back into her life, you can remind her with video evidence. Like, Hey, look, this is how you felt.

[00:11:33] This is what happened. He tried to kill you, et cetera. We also wanted her to consider hiring an ex FBI investigator or a police officer who's now a private investigator to do, do a little bit of extra research on this guy. And one of the main ideas we talked about, which I thought was also a really good option, was going to the media with the story warning other people about this guy, the implications of the bail thing.

[00:11:56] Because people might not be interested necessarily, like, oh, one person's story of domestic abuse, but it's like if it's the bail thing, here's what's happening and we can't get police protection because of this bail thing. Someone who was against the bail thing from the jump for probably this reason will jump on this.

[00:12:10] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right, exactly. So then recently this same listener wrote in again and she had quite the update. So she writes, hello Jordan and now Gabe. I've been waiting five years to write in with a comprehensive end to my feedback Friday situation. I implemented as much of your advice as my mother would allow back then, which unfortunately was not much.

[00:12:31] Two months after I wrote in, she was back with her abuser. Q3 years of cyclical manipulation, violence, arrests, same day releases and reuniting. New York State continued to let us down again and again. Her abuser would be arrested after the domestic violence incidents that were too severe to hide, but was often released from holding before my mother was even released from the hospital.

[00:12:57] Judge's hands were tied because New York botched bail reform by only considering poverty and not risk. Insane. It was pure, unadulterated absurdity. There were witnesses to the abuse, friends, roommates, neighbors, police, none of it mattered. He even tried to burn her house down, so the fire department became aware of her address and situation.

[00:13:19] I tried the media as well, but no one would touch a bail reform story that went against the mainstream narrative that there weren't any negative outcomes or unintended consequences of bail reform.

[00:13:29] Jordan Harbinger: This guy is a real monster, and this is so infuriating. I know we're wandering into politics here a little bit with the bail reform and the mainstream narrative stuff.

[00:13:37] I'm not nearly educated enough to meaningfully weigh in on the nuances of all that, but I, I do find it frustrating that journalists wouldn't cover a story capturing the dark side of letting tons of violent people out of jail without bail. I mean, not even in the interest of overturning the reform, just in the interest of, you know, appreciating all of the effects of major policy decisions like this, especially the unintended effects, and I'm sorry to hear that, but I, I commend you for trying.

[00:14:04] It's just, it's an important story and it's terrifying that nobody wants to admit that this is a problem.

[00:14:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: Throughout those three years, my two sisters and I all had different approaches to handling this crisis. Mm. I was tough love, and at times rather mean. My middle sister cut off mom entirely, and the youngest followed the domestic violence playbook of support, understanding and keeping the metaphorical door open to our mother.

[00:14:28] Jordan Harbinger: It's all understandable. These situations are so tough. I also understand being really angry at somebody who's just choosing to get attacked. Instead of same, uh, I mean, just, uh,

[00:14:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: don't get me started. Yeah. I feel like I would be all three of the sisters somehow at once. She goes on. Absolutely. None of these approaches were effective.

[00:14:47] I also eventually cut my mother off entirely when I became pregnant during the pandemic and had to choose the situations I could afford to stress about. I hear that. I mean, that's perfectly understandable, to say the least. Then my mother's situation came to a head when this guy succeeded in burning her house to the ground on his second attempt.

[00:15:05] Wow. He set it on fire with himself, my mother, my disabled grandfather, and all of their pets inside. Oh my God. That is horrible. Miraculously, only one cat was lost. Oh, what a terrible day for this letter to come. Yeah. Oh man. I'm already feeling sensitive about cats missing. My terrible, my mother's house was a double attached townhouse, so the neighbors on either side also had damage and fallout from the fire.

[00:15:31] This finally was enough for New York State to set bail for the sky for the very first time in 2021. It was high enough that he spent almost two years in jail before the case made it to trial. Then just recently, he was sentenced to 12 years in prison for the foreseeable future. This is over.

[00:15:49] Jordan Harbinger: Thank God.

[00:15:50] Wow. Finally, I'm, well, first of all, I'm so glad to hear that this maniac deserves to be behind bars, literal, multiple attempted murders on top of all the abuse. What a terrifying, despicable human being. I will say that I am bummed that you lost your cat, and I'm also bummed that this guy didn't just die.

[00:16:08] I mean, if you wanna kill yourself, go right ahead. You scumbag. Why aren't you taking other people with you? Mm-Hmm. I mean, you're just an absolute piece of garbage. Good riddance. This must be a huge relief to you guys. I mean, the things y'all have been through. I'm also annoyed that he only got 12 years.

[00:16:21] He tried to kill what? Four people. And multiple animals succeeded in killing one, and he burned a house to the ground and damaged the neighbor's houses. And he gets the same sentence as somebody who's gets caught with a,

[00:16:31] Gabriel Mizrahi: with like cocaine or something. Cocaine, yeah. It's un fricking believable. It's infuriating.

[00:16:36] Yeah. So she goes on, my sisters and I are slowly repairing our relationship with our mother, and she now has her first two grandchildren, but she suffers permanent brain damage from the beatings and will never be the grandmother I always dreamt she would be. Geez. Oh man, that is so sad. Yeah. I mean, I'm glad she's alive, but clearly the effects still linger.

[00:16:57] It's just he stole like a huge part of not just her life, but all of their lives. Yep. Our spouses are tolerant of her, but there's zero Love lost over watching their wives suffer from her life choices. Oh yeah. For me, a line from Gavin de Becker's book, the Gift of Fear, puts it best that at some point a domestic violence victim, a.

[00:17:16] Becomes a domestic violence volunteer,

[00:17:19] Jordan Harbinger: right? Yep. The ways we often collude consciously or unconsciously with predators, usually by ignoring our intuition, discounting the numerous alarm bells that go off early on with somebody dangerous. I imagine Gavin gets a decent amount of flack for saying stuff like that because it sounds like victim blaming.

[00:17:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.

[00:17:36] Jordan Harbinger: And I understand why people would see it that way. But I've read his book, interviewed him here on the show. I've walked away with a totally different reading of that. I don't see this as victim blaming. I actually see it as victim empowering. Right. Because what Gavin's trying to do here is push people.

[00:17:49] And he, he can be a little bit tough about this sometimes. I, I know it comes from a place of actually caring about this. He's pushing people to recognize how much agency they do have. Mm-Hmm. And how we still have a personal responsibility to protect ourselves from people who wanna harm us.

[00:18:04] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And that's 100% compatible with having empathy for victims and holding predators accountable.

[00:18:09] Like this guy who targeted her mom for years.

[00:18:12] Jordan Harbinger: Right. You can be a victim and you can bear some responsibility for remaining in a dangerous situation, even if you're attacked outta the blue. Even if you had no signal someone was gonna hurt you. How you respond, how you recover, what you do with that experience, that is something you have agency over.

[00:18:29] And we gotta make room for both. I'm not talking about like, well, she got assaulted. Was she wearing a skirt? That's not what I'm, you know, that's not what I'm going with this. If you are spending years going back to somebody and bailing them outta jail for trying to kill you, eh, there's a line that gets crossed somewhere.

[00:18:43] And, sorry, I don't mean to jump on ye old soapbox, but this is a topic I'm quite passionate about, obviously, and it's a big theme on feedback Friday.

[00:18:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Carry on. When I first heard that, I felt so validated because I feel like the current culture around supporting domestic violence victims strips them of any and all responsibility.

[00:19:03] My mom's abuser was a monster, but she chose this man over and over and over again, over her safety, over her children's safety, over her relationship with her children, over her father, over knowing her first grandchildren. She can't even take credit for leaving him because it was only the state finally setting bail.

[00:19:22] That finally forced her to separate from him and slowly come out of her fog.

[00:19:27] Jordan Harbinger: It's fascinating, isn't it? Mm-Hmm. I might be about to contradict my little rant a moment ago, but it's an interesting question how much agency your mom truly has, because if she's stuck around in a situation this insane for so long, she must have some very serious trauma and other qualities that made it hard, even, I hate using this word, but maybe even impossible to see her situation clearly.

[00:19:48] And having literal brain damage from being beaten doesn't probably help either.

[00:19:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right? Yeah. That's what's so complex about cases like this, right? That's where the Gavin de Becker stuff I do think has to get a little bit more nuanced in practice because people's individual histories and the unique circumstances of their case, all of that, those really complicate the whole idea of, oh, you're, you're simply a volunteer.

[00:20:10] You have control. I mean, you can leave if you want to. Those things are true to a point, but you also have to wonder, are we ultimately constrained by our conditioning, our mm-Hmm. Biology, our gender, our society, our childhoods, whatever. There's just, there's so many angles to this.

[00:20:24] Jordan Harbinger: No, it's a fair point. But yeah, I want to, I just wanted to acknowledge that even though I obviously agree with everything, our friend here is saying, 'cause look, if you are staying with somebody.

[00:20:33] You've got small children in the house. Mm-Hmm. And he's not necessarily doing anything overtly to them, which is hard. You know, small children, they're suffering too. But maybe you can't feed them or there's, you don't wanna leave them alone with him because at least you can control his behavior a little bit or have it geared towards you instead of them if you're around and you also can't survive and you don't have family members.

[00:20:55] This woman had none of that. Right. She had daughters that would've taken her in in a second. Right. She had all these other options. Mm-Hmm. And she was like, eh. Right. And you're just like, oh my God. You are choosing a psychopath over your grandkids and your daughters. You're at some point. It's just like you're a moron.

[00:21:12] And I know that's not as simple as that, but I understand. That's how I would feel.

[00:21:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: No, it's just such an interesting question. But also she said that her mother wasn't like this before. She said her mom was previously, what did she say? Strong and independent. Yeah. So you have to wonder what, what switch got flipped in her?

[00:21:26] Was there something dormant just waiting for a predator like this to come along? Or did some other change in her life have to happen for her to be vulnerable to this guy?

[00:21:34] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's the mystery. But it's also like it's really hard to maintain sympathy for somebody who keeps doing that to themselves.

[00:21:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: It really is. I'm now majorly struggling with how to discuss what my family survived. I still consider myself left of center, but having lived with the actual consequences of newfangled liberal policies has shaken my belief system to the core.

[00:21:56] Jordan Harbinger: Mm-Hmm.

[00:21:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: I live in a large liberal city, so when I try to discuss what my family went through with people, they either get visibly uncomfortable and purse their lips with nothing to say in defense.

[00:22:07] Or they try to explain to me that my family was the exception to the rule. Mm-Hmm. Basically, sorry. You had to suffer for the greater good. They think my situation was a rare outlier,

[00:22:16] Jordan Harbinger: Uhhuh,

[00:22:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: but stories like mine are not as uncommon as they wanna believe. And it still happened and our lived experience still matters.

[00:22:24] Jordan Harbinger: I'm sure those people would feel the exact same way if it was them in those shoes, right? So we just have to suffer for the greater good, right? No, this is nimbyism. This is not in my backyard. bs. It's like those people that say, Hey, I've got dangerous people walking through my backyard and threatening me and approaching my house at all hours of the night who are crossing the border.

[00:22:44] And everybody goes, well, you know, we're all doing the best we can. And it's like, it's my backyard that they're in though. It's my backyard, it's, it's my house. They approach at night with a shotgun looking for food, water, and shelter and who knows what else? It's my backyard. You live in Michigan, of course.

[00:23:02] You don't really care that much. I'm very sympathetic to that. I'm very sympathetic to that. Look, your story is very stark and it challenges the easy narratives that justify broad legislation. What you're coming up against in those conversations is probably cognitive dissonance, maybe a lack of empathy.

[00:23:18] In some cases, most people do not like having their opinions challenged by unsettling data and not knowing what to believe. That's, it's a shame, but it's, that's the truth. And that's true of people across the political spectrum. I'm not even talking about left right now. Pro bail, anti baille reform. This is just a human thing and you know, obvious flaws in that system,

[00:23:38] Gabriel Mizrahi: right?

[00:23:38] Obviously the only answer is to live in the grays, right? To make room for lots of different facts and realities, and can't we all accept that all laws are imperfect and have unintended consequences? Like that doesn't seem very controversial to me, but yeah, sadly, that's, I guess that's hard for a lot of people.

[00:23:53] So she goes on. I also learned something through this experience that no one really talks about. You can't actually help anyone. You can give it your best shot, but if they don't want help, if they wanna live in suffering, even in absurdity, there's absolutely nothing you can do. But wait for them to come to you after the worst has happened, if ever.

[00:24:13] Jordan Harbinger: Uh, yeah.

[00:24:14] Gabriel Mizrahi: I feel like we talk

[00:24:15] Jordan Harbinger: about that all the time.

[00:24:16] Gabriel Mizrahi: All the time. Constantly. Some would say a little too much. Like that guy the other week who said All of our advice is always the same and easily found on Google. Shout out to that guy.

[00:24:24] Jordan Harbinger: Yep. This is an old feedback Friday chestnut. But yet obviously I totally agree with you, there's a very real limit to what we can do for other people, especially if they're not willing.

[00:24:32] I mean, it's a tale as old as time.

[00:24:35] Gabriel Mizrahi: My situation taught me that I had to let go and let my mom drown in the consequences that she ultimately chose and wanted on some level. I'm still a diehard fan of the show and love feedback Friday episodes. My only note would be that maybe after all of your amazing, practical and dark Jordan advice.

[00:24:54] Sprinkle in that some people can't be helped. We are truly powerless sometimes. Yeah, I feel like we literally say that all the time, but I'm happy to remind people of that instead of frustrating me. This realization actually lifted a huge weight off of my shoulders and made me feel free for the first time in a long time.

[00:25:11] Anyway, I don't know if you can call this a positive update, but it's not the worst update. No one died. The bad guys in jail, and we're all slowly healing. New York State has even rolled back some parts of bail reform to allow judges to consider risk in their rulings.

[00:25:26] Jordan Harbinger: I wonder how many people had to die before they got that memo.

[00:25:29] Shh. I Interesting. I mean, look, that seems reasonable. There's gotta be some middle ground between keeping people locked up because they're poor and making sure that an abusive arsonist murderer doesn't get outta jail before their victims get outta the hospital.

[00:25:43] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hello? Yeah. Surely we can figure that out.

[00:25:45] Mm-Hmm. Right. It doesn't seem that difficult. So she wraps up. Thank you for writing back to me all those years ago. You really helped me do all that was in my power in a situation. I was rather powerless to control. Most of all I felt seen at my darkest hour. Please keep doing such amazing work. I will be listening on the other side.

[00:26:03] Signed breathing a sigh after my real life bout with true crime. Ooh, what a letter. What a letter,

[00:26:09] Jordan Harbinger: man. I got a little bit choked up there at the end, Gabe. I don't mean to make it about us, but when, when we hear how this show has played a role in y'all, y'all's lives, I'm using that word, it really does mean the world to us.

[00:26:20] We're just very touched to be part of these incredibly intense experiences that you guys go through and. To know that you've felt acknowledged and empowered by our response. I didn't know that at the time, but it really does mean a lot to us. I don't actually have a ton more to add here. Talked a lot during the letter.

[00:26:35] This remarkable letter also kind of speaks for itself, but we wanted to share that update with everybody. And also because the story captures so many of the themes that we come back to again and again on the show. The importance of taking responsibility for life, owning your agency, finding the things you can control, and at the same time, recognizing the limit of your influence.

[00:26:54] Knowing when to keep fighting, when to surrender. Making room for different opinions, multiple perspectives, not settling on easy answers or ignoring data or ideas that are uncomfortable and inconvenient dealing with trauma. Watching somebody you love deal with trauma, allowing them to make terrible choices repeatedly, sometimes even potentially fatal choices.

[00:27:14] It's almost like this story was written by chat GPT to bring to life every concept and philosophy we explore on this show. So, but I do wanna say this. I am so sorry that you went through this experience. I'm sorry that your mom went through this experience. What this guy did to you is, it's so far beyond the pale.

[00:27:32] It's so extreme, so horrifying. Most people will never understand what it's like to be targeted by a psychopath in this way. And I'm just so sorry that this happened to your family, but I'm especially sorry for you personally in a lot of ways because you had to stand by and watch your mom continue to stay with this guy when he was literally determined to kill her.

[00:27:54] And yes, that is absolutely tragic for her. She could have been murdered in a way. Part of her has been killed off. Right? I mean that, that she's got brain damage and trauma, but she could have gotten out of it if she wanted to, or at least she could have. Fricking tried, but you couldn't. You and your sisters and your whole family, you couldn't make her do this.

[00:28:10] You were like you said, powerless. And that's a unique pain. Mm-Hmm. To be on the sidelines, to not be able to influence the person who needs to make a change to change. And to not have power really over a system that allows monsters like this to continue hurting people, that's a recipe for a kind of sadness, a rage, a helplessness that, uh, just is just awful.

[00:28:31] Mm-Hmm. But it sounds to me like you moved through those feelings with a lot of grace, a ton of patience, a ton of compassion and understanding as well as some crucial boundaries, especially during your pregnancy. And that is tremendous. You're a poster child for doing the thing we talk about all the time, which is surrendering to what's happening, inviting in the grief, working through those feelings in your own way.

[00:28:54] Sometimes when we say that, and I know we say it a lot, there's a little voice in my head going, but how, how do we explain how to do that? Do people really believe that's possible? Mm-Hmm. And your letter is a case study in doing exactly that, and I'm, I'm sure it was beyond hard. I'm sure you had your moments.

[00:29:11] I'm not gassing you up like, Hey, you were total Buddha. You crushed this. Three year long cycle of abuse and almost homicide. If I had been in your shoes, I would've been a, a mess. I would've called Sammy the bull and been like, how do I get this guy's legs broken? And the message to him very, very clearly.

[00:29:25] Right? Honestly, that's not a terrible solution, I guess, situation like this, but overall you did great. Hashtag dark Jordan. Yes. Lawyer, not your lawyer, et cetera, et cetera. Right. No, this is not legal advice. Hiring a mafia enforcer to break this man's legs and threaten his life if he comes back, is not legal advice.

[00:29:41] In fact, it's the opposite of legal advice overall. You did great. I'm sure your sisters went through their own processes too, and, and maybe those were different, and that's fair. I suppose

[00:29:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: I also love this thing you said about recognizing that you had to let your mom live with the consequences of her decision.

[00:29:56] You know, you had to accept that staying with this maniac was what she wanted on some level. Again, I, I do think it's more nuanced than that. It's so hard to know what your mom did and didn't want, whether she was even capable of wanting in the way that a high functioning person is, but accepting that powerlessness at a certain point.

[00:30:13] Making some peace with that. That is so profound and it's so hard because as we also talk about a lot, that can feel a lot like giving up, but it's not giving up. You can still act, you can still hope, you can still keep the door open to your mom. You can still intervene when necessary, but knowing what you truly have control over and what you don't have control over, man, I don't know.

[00:30:34] The older I get, the more I realize how alarming it is to recognize just how little we do have control over in life. I think that's wisdom. So I'm not surprised that you felt liberated by that. You said you felt like you shrugged off a huge burden. It actually makes me wonder how much of the heaviness we tend to feel in very stressful situations.

[00:30:53] You know, how much of that is about the stressful situation itself and how much of it is about the belief that we hold, that we can control it, that we have to control it. I don't know. That's just something I want to sit with and think about, especially as I. Go through this, uh, manhunt or cat hunt. Mm-Hmm.

[00:31:08] For, uh, Drake. 'cause it's like, I can only do so much and so much of it is just a big question mark, you know?

[00:31:13] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I look, I feel you, man. And like you said, you still act, you still try. You don't give up, but you can also take on Right. More responsibility than is actually helpful. Sometimes that responsibility is just, it's just not yours.

[00:31:24] And I'm speaking more about forcing someone to save themselves from a literal predator than finding your cat. Of course. But I'm, I'm sure that idea applies in some way to both. Man, what a thing your mom put you through. I, once somebody says you're doing this to your children, how do you not wake up from that?

[00:31:39] Let's say you value yourself at zero. Don't you value your kids and your grandkids? What? Like, I just can't wrap my mind around this. I'm glad it's all over for now anyway. I hope this guy doesn't somehow get out early to overcrowding or whatever and come back for your mom. I doubt it. Given what he's done.

[00:31:56] I really hope this is over for you guys. Try to protect your mom however you can, especially now that you know, she's so compromised. I would make sure, you know, when his parole hearings are and show up to those with a statement about how he tried to kill your mom and kept coming back and burnt down the house and yada.

[00:32:13] Because the parole board, they might go, oh, domestic violence arson. Okay. But if you come in and you're like, this man has tried to kill our whole family so many times, they might be like, uh, letting this guy out. Uh, where's that weed dealer? Let's let that guy out. He's, you know, come on, this stuff matters.

[00:32:30] I also hope this dude doesn't write her from prison every day. Like, I'm so sorry. And then 10 years later when he gets out early again due to overcrowded, she picks him up and they start this BS all over again. I would just try to stay close to your mom. Keep reminding her of how much better off she is without him in her life.

[00:32:44] I. Thank you for sharing your story with us. With all of us, we are very relieved for you. We're super proud of you sending you your mom and your sisters a big hug and wishing you all the peace and healing that you deserve. You know what else is burning the house down, Gabriel, the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show.

[00:33:03] We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Air Doctor. We take about 20,000 breaths each day and spend roughly 90% of our time indoors thanks to the whole work from home era, right? Well, I bet I spend like 99% of my time. That's depressing. Here's a shocker. The EPA says our indoor air can be up to a hundred times more polluted than what's outside.

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[00:35:07] All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all searchable and clickable at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to feedback Friday.

[00:35:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I work in a big company where we do some lobbying and public affairs for our employer.

[00:35:29] Some years ago, we were concerned about an environmental regulation that could become too strict. My boss started to gather some documentation and raised questions that were legitimate in a scientific debate. Then Covid struck and she started discussing the efficacy of vaccines, the real severity of covid, and the fact that all of the lockdowns were organized by big pharma.

[00:35:51] Now, she talks about the fact that countries have no real power and that everything is organized by the United Nations, which is a tool for private interests, namely Bill Gates and BlackRock. Then, a month ago, she showed me a post on Twitter about children being sex trafficked in a synagogue. When I asked her what the sources were, she said that newspapers are muted and not allowed to cover this kind of news.

[00:36:13] She shared this, by the way, even though she knows I'm Jewish. I'm no doctor, but I have an autistic child myself, and I suspect that my boss has undiagnosed autism. This makes her make some very inappropriate remarks, but it also gives her a dedication to every detail that makes her a very respected professional in our field.

[00:36:34] What should I do here? How can I state that I don't agree with my boss's conspiratorial claims signed? Trying to clap back when my boss talks smack without catching flack for an attack on our lack of facts.

[00:36:46] Jordan Harbinger: Uh, interesting. All right, well, we've taken letters about conspiratorial friends, conspiratorial partners, conspiratorial family members, but I don't think we've ever heard about how to deal with a conspiratorial boss.

[00:36:56] So this is a tricky one because first of all, the power dynamics between an employee and a boss are already complicated. If you clap back at her like, Hey, your sources are crap. Your opinions are dodgy, don't share this nonsense bullshit with me. That could obviously infect your working relationship. You know, she could turn on you.

[00:37:13] She could view you as one of the, you're one of the sheeple, buying into mainstream nonsense. She could withdraw some of her support or respect for you, which is a risk. Also, it sounds clearly she struggles with reading the room and that might not entirely be her fault. To your earlier point, obviously I have no idea if she's on the spectrum, but based on what you've shared, she probably struggles with social cues, with consistently empathizing with people and, and possibly a slight sprinkle of antisemitism.

[00:37:41] It's hard to say, but you never know. So what feels personal and loaded, it might just be her getting pumped about these zany ideas and just not realizing how they come across to other people. Which does not make it okay, but it does make it somewhat understandable and not as personal as it feels. But then you guys work in lobbying public affairs.

[00:38:01] It sounds like you're dealing with nuanced issues that don't have simple answers like that. Environmental regulation, and those topics do deserve a certain degree of skepticism and independent thinking, which your boss is clearly willing to engage in. Now, being skeptical in a healthy way. That's obviously different from straight up conspiratorial thinking.

[00:38:19] The former is principled and rigorous and has some kind of standards. It has some guardrails. The latter, you know, it's reckless. It's fuzzy. It's chaos. It's these rabbis that are pedophiles based on some post on fricking Twitter with zero evidence, as opposed to, Hmm, okay. This whole narrative around how lockdowns were necessary that isn't as black or white as the government said before the data's mixed, school closures, yada, yada.

[00:38:43] Totally different conversations. But I can also appreciate a boss in this space who's not super eager to buy into easy answers or mainstream narratives, because that might in fact be part of effective lobbying and managing public affairs. And to your point, it might also be part of why she's so good at it.

[00:38:59] Her dedication to every detail. It's probably in some ways a superpower,

[00:39:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: although that's one of the ironies of the story, right? She's obsessive about details at work. She's so thorough. But then when it comes to stories about pedophiles and big pharma and private interests, she doesn't seem as rigorous about the sources.

[00:39:14] No. She's being sounds like willfully blind to the specifics, which is precisely what conspiracy theorists do. Yeah.

[00:39:21] Jordan Harbinger: It's a strange contradiction. You don't usually find those two tendencies in the same person. Right? Right.

[00:39:27] Gabriel Mizrahi: But that's gotta speak to a part of her that wants to buy into this stuff. Right, right.

[00:39:30] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Makes her feel smarter or something like that. Or she finds community in it and she's otherwise lonely. 'cause she's kind of a weirdo who can't read the room. Right. So who, who knows really why this is, whether it's her personal history or values or just because she finds the stuff entertaining. So look.

[00:39:44] If this were your friend, your partner, your parent, my advice would be to ask them open, curious, non-judgmental questions, and slowly get them to consider all the reasons they hold these beliefs. But because this is your boss, a person who holds power over you, who has a unique relationship with you, which means you have less stakes and less responsibility to change your mind, in my opinion, and also somebody who doesn't seem particularly open to changing her mind, I'm actually leaning towards the opposite course of action here.

[00:40:12] My feeling is that your boss's opinions are kind of none of your business, and you have more to gain by not engaging with her on this type of stuff. Now the hard part is that she's making it your business by showing you fricking crap ola about petto rabbis and how Bill Gates invented COVID-19 or whatever.

[00:40:29] And I'm sure that's hard for you both as a responsible employee and as a Jewish person who's being shown just clearly antisemitic nonsense. It's really hard when somebody in a position of authority says stuff that's distasteful, irresponsible, sometimes even hurtful. So I'm not saying you don't have good reasons to wanna speak up, I'm just saying that on a practical level, I'm just not sure it's worth it.

[00:40:50] What I would do instead is just basically ignore it. Draw some respectful boundaries around your time, and I'd pin that on work rather than on your personal beliefs. So for example, if you guys are in a meeting about a new lobbying initiative, and she goes, oh, by the way, did you see that post on X about how Pfizer executives funded a lab in Wuhan that invented the virus so they could prop up their stock price because three of the board members are Jews and they play golf with Bill Gates and the lizard peoples something, whatever.

[00:41:16] I would just be like, wow, crazy. But listen, I got a lot of work to do. I really wanna make sure I get this done for you. So let's close the loop on the lobbying stuff and then I am gonna go back to my office and put my head down. That's harder for her to argue with. Mm-Hmm. And it'll communicate to her that your top priority at work, at the office is actually, you know, doing work.

[00:41:33] What a concept, right? You're not shutting down the conversation 'cause you disagree. You're shutting it down because you're disciplined. Just make sure you don't like roll your eyes and put a little judgy stank on that script if you use it. Not that she would pick up on that, but you gotta resist the urge to blend in the subtext.

[00:41:48] Just keep it neutral, keep it professional. But if this ever becomes untenable for you, or if your boss ever tips over into something more problematic, like you realize she just actually doesn't like Jews, she's antisemitic, she's openly denigrating Jewish people in meetings or attacking you in some way, then I'd consider speaking up, either addressing it directly with her or talking to HR about it and document all this stuff.

[00:42:10] If she sends you a text and it's like Jewish Rabbi sex trafficking screenshot. Put it in a, an album on your phone. Be done with it. Email comes in about this, and by the way, have you seen this COVID-19 screenshot or take a picture of your computer screen on your personal phone, not on work equipment. And save it.

[00:42:26] And just file it. And then if you check at the end of the year when she's finally going full coup and you've got 400 screenshots in there, now you got a case, talk to HR about it. It's a different problem. I'm not sure you're there yet. Dodge this stuff. That's your best bet. It takes a lot of grace and discipline to do, and you're probably gonna have to do some heavy breathing in the break room sometimes, but it's worth it.

[00:42:46] Good luck and uh, yeah, we'll see you at our annual lizard people Jewish Illuminati meeting inside the Hollow Earth. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, your neighbors are eaves dropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or your brother is obsessed with goats.

[00:43:10] That one last week, Gabriel, that was so good. It was whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email I miss.

[00:43:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm 33 years old and I'm currently fighting stage four cancer. Mm. This is actually my second time with cancer.

[00:43:34] Oh man. 33 years old. Geez, that's rough. So sorry. Mm-Hmm. When I was a young 20 something, I took out two school loans at 14.75% and 14.25% interest rates and I can't afford them. I have many regrets. Then recently I was denied total and permanent disability by my student loan provider, Sally May and their third party Minnesota Life because I work.

[00:44:00] I work because I want to keep my insurance. They have a program that pays for 100% of my meds, and the meds normally cost $4,000 a month. Also, it would take two years to get on government insurance, which would be a death sentence for me. Plus, I can work. I hear that I need to get a lawyer to fight a battle with Sally Mae, which will take at least two years and to not give up on this, while also fighting for my life.

[00:44:26] I'm hopeful about finding a program that helps cancer patients afford attorneys, but I'm feeling overwhelmed. I just wanna have this heavy financial load off my shoulders. I'm feeling frustrated with Uber capitalism. These loan companies can do sketchy stuff and get away with it. They've had many lawsuits and lost cases, but they're still in business.

[00:44:47] Why don't private student loan providers have to provide programs for repayment for people with disabilities who don't qualify right away for permanent or total disability loan forgiveness? Why are private loan companies not regulated? What should I do? Signed looking for answers while I battled two cancers.

[00:45:05] Jordan Harbinger: Listen, you godless, communist. No man. This is seriously what a letter and what a thing you're going through. Let me start by saying, I am so sorry you're going through cancer again, by the way, and that you're in this absolutely awful position of having to choose between taking care of your health and taking care of debt, which by the way, I can't believe that those loans are 14 plus percent interest.

[00:45:25] I feel like back in the day mine were at least 10% lower than that. I think I had a three something and maybe a five something together and I had a lot of debt. It's shocking that they can make student loan interest rates as high as my credit card. It's just unbelievable. It's insane. I don't mean to get into politics here, but hearing your story, it's just hard not to comment on the state of this country.

[00:45:47] And to be fair, the dark side of capitalism everywhere, even though I am to be clear, a big believer in it is the, the single best engine for upward mobility in history, capitalism. That is. But the fact that there are people out there who have to choose between getting their life-saving medication for cancer and not going bankrupt insane.

[00:46:05] Is literally insane. Yeah. And it is not. Okay. And our Canadian Joe fans and our European listeners are just. Every time they hear something like this, they're just blown away when they hear how much ambulance rides cost or how much medication costs out of po. I mean, it's just, it's wild and it's not getting better.

[00:46:21] That's the, that's the other problem.

[00:46:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. No one's doing much about it. Yeah. Those listeners are shaking their heads right now, uh, as the image of a dumpster fire with a, with a bald eagle flying over a plays in their mind. No doubt. No

[00:46:32] Jordan Harbinger: kidding. And I'm not necessarily getting on a soapbox for socialized medicine or student loan forgiveness.

[00:46:37] I, I actually have quite a few opinions on, on that. That might surprise you. All of these solutions have their upsides and they're very real downsides. So when we take a letter like this, it just makes the impact of this stuff so vivid and my heart absolutely breaks for people, especially hardworking people like our friend here who have to fight stage four cancer and work a full-time job and keep Sally fricking mail off their back so their wages are gonna get garnished and their credit score's gonna tank.

[00:47:05] This is late capitalism in a nutshell. It's just sort of horrifying to see this. I mean, it shouldn't be that hard to defer these loans. In fact, it's also criminal, the interest rate. But I kind of already covered that, and I know you're not asking for a pity party and I appreciate that. But my God, the things you are going through right now.

[00:47:22] So first of all, I don't know why student loan companies aren't better regulated. I don't know why they don't offer accommodations for certain disabilities, like, you know, fighting cancer for your life. Maybe John Oliver knows the answer. That's a topic he'd rail on for 20 minutes until we forget about it and, and move on to the next horror show.

[00:47:40] What I do know is that you have to work with what you've been given. You have to prioritize and you gotta do one thing at a time. So the first order of business, if you can't hit pause on the debt and you truly can't get on government insurance immediately, you gotta prioritize your health cancer before Sally Maye obviously, because if you make decisions at the expense of your health, what is the point?

[00:48:02] Your job right now is to get healthy, to stick around on earth instead of under it as long as possible. So that either means keeping your job and having to continue paying these loans as best you can, or it means quitting your job and getting on government insurance and getting a moratorium on the debt.

[00:48:17] I am a little surprised to hear that it would take two years to get on government insurance. I know those programs can be a hot mess, but I would triple confirm that that's really the case because that sounds insane to me. I have friends who've gotten government healthcare, they have to pick up the phone and advocate for themselves all the time, but they were able to get on pretty quickly and get care.

[00:48:36] Maybe I'm being naive, I don't know, but then. I'd rather you have private insurance through your company and you said you can work. And I wonder if working is also giving you some much needed structure, community distraction through all this. So those are other good reasons to go that route. Mm-Hmm.

[00:48:53] Second, I would definitely go the lawyer route and fight Sally Mae on this. I hate that this would be another expense, but I do wonder if there are attorneys who specialize in this. Maybe they got the template they send to student loan companies ready to go. Maybe they know exactly what to say, how to say it, which department?

[00:49:08] It's gotta be said to. And it actually wouldn't cost you all that much. I don't know. I wanna see you stick it to these predatory companies that don't have a fricking checkbox on their website for, sorry bro, I'm fighting stage four cancer. I need an extension or maybe a deferral or whatever they call it.

[00:49:22] I can't believe it.

[00:49:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Also, a lawyer might be able to advise you on whether it'd be possible to discharge this debt possibly through bankruptcy. I really hope it doesn't come to that. But we've been talking about bankruptcy a lot on the show recently. 'cause we got a lot of letters about it. It is an option.

[00:49:35] Now that used to be really hard, but we did some reading on this and those student loan reforms that the Biden administration recently made. So one of the big initiatives was making it easier for borrowers who are experiencing hardship to discharge their student loans in bankruptcy. Now, unfortunately, it's not as easy as saying, Hey, I have stage four cancer, so I can't pay.

[00:49:56] Apparently you would need to engage in, in adversarial proceeding, which is basically a lawsuit against the student loan company, where you would have to prove that you're experiencing what's called undue hardship, which by the way is an extremely difficult standard to meet. We read up on that too. The criteria for undue hardship are A demonstrating an inability to maintain a minimal standard of living.

[00:50:17] B, persistent financial difficulties, and C, a good faith effort to repay the loans, which you might be able to prove with an attorney's help. Although keeping your job, I don't know that might already disqualify you from this option because you're not, you know, on the street, living in your car in massive credit card debt or whatever, but you could be, and you have been paying these loans faithfully up till now, which counts for something.

[00:50:41] But then we all know these lenders have a lot of power, they have a ton of resources, so I'm afraid you will have to prepare for a fight. On the bright side though, toward the end of last year, the Justice Department released some data on these cases. They said that of the ones that were resolved, 99% of them ended in either a full or a partial discharge.

[00:51:02] Now the question, of course, is how many of these cases actually end up getting resolved?

[00:51:07] Jordan Harbinger: Right? And while you do all that, I would consider starting a GoFundMe to help raise some money. And again, don't get me started on what it says about our system, that a person with a full-time job needs to start a fricking crowdfunding campaign to stay alive.

[00:51:20] Mm-Hmm. This pitch breaks my heart. But people do it all the time and it does work. Even if you raise 4, 5, 8 grand, it could be huge for you. 'cause what is that? A two month buffer on your medication, as they said in the letter, according to the pricing each month, if you do this. I'd take the time to really tell your story in the campaign description, maybe make a little video post it.

[00:51:40] You basically wanna say, hi, I have to work to keep my medication. I can work. I'm happy to work, but I'm somehow in this impossible situation where I have to decide whether to quit my job and go on government insurance so I don't die from cancer or keep working and have my money go straight to Sally Mae at a frankly exorbitant interest rate.

[00:51:58] So I'm humbly and gratefully opening myself up to your help. I've had a few friends over the years do this and I always gladly donated. I hate that it comes to this, but it is an option and you have a very compelling story to tell.

[00:52:09] Gabriel Mizrahi: She does. And speaking of your compelling story, I would also approach, you know, taking a cue from.

[00:52:14] Q1 here, a few journalists and see if they would be interested in covering your story. I know this isn't exactly news. People have been talking about the student loan crisis for a while now, but hanging an article about the horrors of the student loan situation on a story like this, I think that would make it extremely interesting and relevant to people.

[00:52:32] Jordan Harbinger: Seriously, it doesn't get much more sympathetic than this. It's not like, oh, I was an art major and I took out $200,000 worth of loans and I can't find a job when never gonna buy a house. This is like, I'm literally dying. This is not my fault. And you want three out of my $4,000 a month 'cause of interest payments, like get bent.

[00:52:50] Gabriel Mizrahi: Your story makes these loan companies look like, frankly, total bastards, horrible. It's just a horrifying example of what's gone wrong, and maybe your attorney can use an article that gets written about you to force the student loan providers to take this seriously and respond immediately. So, I would send a few brief pitches to a handful of reporters who have written about the student loan crisis before.

[00:53:10] See what they say. They might also, by the way, have ideas or resources for how to fight back because they're plugged in and they know what's up,

[00:53:17] Jordan Harbinger: right? These journalists know this world inside and out. They tend to be well connected. My last thought for you is this. I know this debt is very real. The hit to your bank account is very real, but it's not as real as cancer.

[00:53:28] So again, prioritize your health above all else, physical and mental. Do not log in and check your Sally Mae balance every three days. That's gonna drive you nuts. Do what you have to do and then tuck it away. Keep coming back to what you need to do, what matters most, which is obviously getting well and staying alive.

[00:53:43] Again, I am deeply sorry you're in this boat. It makes me incredibly angry. This is the kind of story that really gives urgency to voting and calling your congressman and stuff like that. You've been dealt a really crappy hand and you don't deserve it. But in a situation like this, you can only do what you can do and you keep showing up and you keep taking care of yourself.

[00:54:04] We're sending you a huge non-dischargeable hug, and we are rooting for you every step of the way. You know, if this were me, your ass ain't getting paid until I'm, well, you know, you better hope I get well. 'cause if I croak, you're never getting a dime. These companies act like getting cancer as the same as somebody who can't stop shopping online for handbags or something.

[00:54:24] It's like, Hey, you should have budgeted for this. What are you talking about? It's so bad that it's almost hard to believe. There's not somebody at Sally May who's like, no, no, no. My job is to decide. If this person should get a deferral or not. And cancer is like on the, like medical stuff is at the top of the list.

[00:54:38] I almost feel like it just has to be that way.

[00:54:40] Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, isn't this why people are up in arms about this industry? I mean, I know nothing significant seems to be happening, but like the rage against student loan providers has never been higher. And you know, the Biden administration has made a big thing out of this, these student loan reforms.

[00:54:55] And I know people are critical of them and it's complicated. And some people think that's not the right approach. I don't know enough about it to opine on that, but I mean, I get it. I get why people are trying to reach for solutions wherever they can find them, because people like this are suffering because they don't have a simple option to give you nine months so that you can stay alive.

[00:55:13] It's crazy.

[00:55:14] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. This person's not even asking for her loans to be forgiven. She just is like, Hey, can I maybe not pay this until I get rid of cancer? Exactly. Because the interest rate is making it so I can't pay for my chemotherapy. It's like. How is that even remotely controversial? Like if you, there should literally be a form you file to make this possible.

[00:55:32] It's unbelievable. You know what's more fun than navigating the Byzantine bureaucracy of American Healthcare? Gabriel enjoying the fine products and services that support this show.

[00:55:41] Gabriel Mizrahi: I gotta say, Jordan, that bar, that bar is very low. Oh yeah. It's un Unlike

[00:55:46] Jordan Harbinger: Sally May's interest rates. We'll be right back.

[00:55:52] This episode is sponsored in part by Better Help. You know, sometimes it feels like you're a walking, talking stress ball just bouncing from one worry to the next. We've all been there keeping all that stuff bottle up inside. It's like shaking a soda. Can you just know at some point that ish is gonna explode?

[00:56:05] That's where therapy comes into play. It's a little gentle tab opener. You know, you flick the top a little bit, let out the fizz slowly and safely. Flicking the top. Probably doesn't do anything. Uh, therapy is a chill space to lay it all out. Your fears, your wins, everything in between. It's about getting a professional in your corner to help you sift through the clutter and find strategies to cope, set boundaries, and really thrive.

[00:56:24] And hey, if you're on the fence, I understand better. Help is a super convenient way to dip your toes into the waters of therapy. It's all online. You can get help from your couch, your kitchen, your backyard, whatever. You be on the hammock, talking to your therapist. Just fill out a quick form. You get matched with a licensed professional therapist that matches your needs.

[00:56:42] And if you don't click, switch it up until you find your therapy soulmate. No extra charge.

[00:56:48] Jen Harbinger: Get it off your chest. With better help. Visit better help.com/jordan today to get 10% off your first month. That's better, HE p.com/jordan.

[00:56:57] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is sponsored in part by the Prosecutors podcast. Are you into True Crime Podcast, but you're looking for something with a fresh perspective?

[00:57:03] Check out Alison Brett on their award-winning podcast. The prosecutors, their actual full-time prosecutors who dive into the most buzzed about true crime cases from Adnan Sayed and JonBenet Ramsey does Scott Peterson and the Delphi murders. They go deep sharing insights and details you're just not gonna find elsewhere.

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[00:57:36] So if you're up for a true crime show with a twist, give the prosecutors a listen. You can find them wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors, all the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show.

[00:57:53] Our all in one place, Jordan harbinger.com/deals. If you can't remember the name of the sponsor, you can't find the code, shoot me an emailJordan@jordanharbinger.com. I am happy to surface the code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to feedback Friday.

[00:58:11] Alright, what's next? Hi, Gabe and Dark Jordan. Hmm. So when people address us like that, does that mean they only want to hear from dark Jordan? No light, you know, legal above board appropriate Jordan advice?

[00:58:24] Gabriel Mizrahi: No. I think it means they want the most psycho advice you can possibly give them. Good. All right. I'm here for it.

[00:58:29] Although, actually I don't think that this really will apply to this letter. So it's funny that he wrote that. Uh, bummer. But anyway, he writes. I recently invented, for lack of a better term, an object, which doesn't serve much functional purpose, but is really funny to behold my prototypes have been met with nothing but boisterous laughter at how ridiculous and silly it is.

[00:58:48] It's a four novelty purposes only kind of thing that you would see at Spencer's. Spencer's for anyone who doesn't know is a novelty store that sells like, uh, gag gifts,

[00:58:58] Jordan Harbinger: right? It's the place you go when you forgot to buy somebody a gift and you have to be at their party in like an hour.

[00:59:02] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly. Or you don't know them very well or you don't like them that much.

[00:59:05] So you buy them a, I don't know, like a pen that shocks you or a, a rubber chicken or something like that. So he goes on. I could absolutely sell these and make money, but this is a simple object that could be easily copied. So I would like to have some level of legal protection, though my faith in enforcing it is low.

[00:59:23] I have a moral dilemma with this as well because of the plastic involved in making the thing. How do I approach an IP attorney with this idea without looking insane? If they don't laugh, is that a bad sign? Does the world really need more plastic trash that serves no functional purpose or is being a funny product that brings people joy?

[00:59:41] Purpose enough, even if I know it'll end up in a landfill at some point, signed the conflicted creator wondering whether Dec Decatur to appreciators. When one day my product will probably end up in a crater. Ooh,

[00:59:55] Jordan Harbinger: good questions. First of all, I do think it's very cool you invented a product, even if it is like a penis shaped straw for bachelorette parties or whatever.

[01:00:04] What do you call that, a riau? I don't, it's, I'm always amazed when people invent something. It's just so, it's interesting. Mm-Hmm. It shows a lot of initiative and creativity and you're actually getting good feedback just in the form of these laughs, which is very much the point. And that's gotta feel good.

[01:00:19] And the fact that you're confident you can sell these things and make some money, I think that's brilliant, dude. I mean, who knows? You? This could be a, a very real side hustle. It could even become your main hustle at some point. This is how these things start, right? So yes, definitely talk to an IP attorney about patenting your product and or trademarking your brand.

[01:00:37] I wouldn't worry about looking insane because of the product itself. These attorneys have helped clients with all kinds of products. Yours might not even be the craziest, remember somebody invented the pocket, you're there to talk to them about a business and money. You're paying them, they're gonna be psyched for the work.

[01:00:55] They're not gonna judge you for your silly product. And no, I don't necessarily think it's a bad sign if they don't laugh. God knows. Lawyers, we're not exactly known for our sense of humor or, and or personality at all. Right? I could see a competent IP attorney being super dry and literal about all this and taking good care of you.

[01:01:10] So it's not a deal breaker. It's more like if you're gonna have to interact with your lawyer a lot and talk about the ins and outs of the product for hours over the course of years, you might wanna work with somebody who has a little bit of personality just 'cause it's more enjoyable. Although, if your lawyer is gonna be an integral part of the business and super involved in the launch of your company, maybe them laughing is kind of a signal of how much they appreciate your vision and how invested they are In your ideas of the, how much vision do you have for, well, you know, on that level.

[01:01:37] Maybe look for lawyers who appreciate what you've invented. That's always a plus. But I wouldn't write off a good lawyer if he doesn't double over laughing at your breast shaped pillow or whatever, which is a, a real thing by the way, that you can get at those novelty stores. Which I just looked up because I was curious.

[01:01:53] Not because I own three of them in different colors, but because they're funny.

[01:01:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: No,

[01:01:57] Jordan Harbinger: no,

[01:01:57] Gabriel Mizrahi: no.

[01:01:58] Jordan Harbinger: Uhhuh,

[01:01:58] Gabriel Mizrahi: we got it. Yeah. Those are Gabe's favorite pillows when he stays over. No, totally can't get a good night's rest at Jordan's house without a. Without a polyester nipple in my ear. You know now about the plastic thing.

[01:02:08] I really do appreciate that you're being thoughtful about that. I mean, we all should. There's definitely something to be said for being conscientious about the things we put out into the world, but my feeling there is, look, if you can do anything to minimize the amount of plastic that this product requires, I would do that.

[01:02:22] It's a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the problem, but every bit helps, right? You're clearly a clever guy. You know, maybe you can figure out the minimum amount of plastic you need to manufacture this thing, and that'll help you sleep at night. And I hear you that this thing serves no functional purpose, but in another way it does.

[01:02:39] It fulfills the function of making people laugh, of bringing them together, of helping somebody say. I don't know. Hey, I love you, but I absolutely didn't think about what to get you for your birthday. So here's a lobster bib with Steve BMI's face on it or whatever. I don't know what it is you invented. I have no idea.

[01:02:56] I'm so curious what he made. Jordan. I really do wonder. I don't know. I'm grasping at straws. Oh

[01:03:00] Jordan Harbinger: yeah. Well indeed. Penis shaped straws. Penis, straw.

[01:03:03] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Stroughs, if you will. Exactly. Grasping at strollo. Mm-Hmm. New feedback. Friday Catch phrase. Mm-Hmm. So does the world need more plastic trash that serves no profound purpose?

[01:03:13] Probably not. The world doesn't need a lot of things. The last, uh, avatar movie, I would argue among other things. But the waste that your company is gonna create, it's kind of a drop in the ocean, isn't it? And I know that mentality is kind of flawed. We all have to do our part. But not putting your product out there isn't going to stop landfills from filling up with plastic.

[01:03:31] Not at this stage of your company. You were very small operation at this point. And I think you have more to gain by putting a really cool thing out into the world and seeing if there's a real business here. Then by not doing it at all for environmental reasons at this stage anyway.

[01:03:46] Jordan Harbinger: I agree. I love his thoughtfulness, but he is literally a guy shipping a couple hundred units of, I don't know, like a tiny doll or something.

[01:03:52] Meanwhile, Coca-Cola is selling right? Tens and tens of billions of bottles and cans every year. So it's like, what are we, what are we talking about here? So I say, go for it, man. The world needs laughter too. More than teeth rotting soda, I'd argue. But definitely keep being as thoughtful and responsible as you can along the way.

[01:04:07] You can do both of these. Maybe you could be the world's first sustainable riau, you know, and good luck. Send us a couple sustainable bags full of your product when you can as well. I would love to see what you're up to.

[01:04:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: I bet he would. Jordan could use a new pocket, so. Please do Sundays. Yep. Mine has a lot of

[01:04:23] Jordan Harbinger: miles on it.

[01:04:24] After all. Hope y'all enjoyed that. I wanna thank everyone who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Don't forget to check out our episode with Susan Casey on Ocean Stuff. All Things Ocean. Super interesting and stay tuned this Sunday, skeptical Sunday coming up on porn, internet porn specifically, but I don't know how specific we need to get.

[01:04:42] Is there any other kind of porn these days? Probably not. The best things that have happened in my life in business have come through my network. The circle of people that I know, like, and trust, and I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six minute networking course. The course is free.

[01:04:55] It is not gross. It is not schmoozy. You can find it on the Think If it platform@sixminutenetworking.com. The drills take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Every time I talk with people about this, it's like, oh, I've, I know you say it every time. I should do it. Just dive in and do the first couple.

[01:05:12] Just the first one or the second one will be life changing enough for you, and it'll get you in there and it won't take a ton of time. Dig the well before you get thirsty. Build relationships before you need them. Six minute networking.com. See you on the subreddit. Many of you are there discussing the episodes.

[01:05:26] Jordan Harbinger is the name of the subreddit. If you don't know what a subreddit is, nevermind. But definitely check out our newsletter. In any case, Jordan harbinger.com/news. Gabe and I are experimenting with different formats there. We dive into old episodes, deliver some wisdom from those episodes that you can apply in your life, and it's once a week.

[01:05:44] Not too much of a lift. Jordan harbinger.com/news show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show. All at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn. Gabe's also on Instagram, Twitter. Are you on LinkedIn? I don't even know. Does it matter?

[01:06:01] No one cares. The show is associated with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Foggerty, Ian Baird, mil Capone. Of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Sometimes my advice is actually illegal, so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show.

[01:06:19] And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. For example, if you know somebody who is dealing with a domestic abuse situation and they can't get the other person out and they're banging their head against the wall, I think Q1 from this week's episode is definitely something you could share with them.

[01:06:38] There's a lot of takeaways from that and I think it would be very helpful for other people in that situation. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

[01:06:52] If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer for another episode that I think you might enjoy.

[01:06:59] Derren Brown: I was walking from one hotel to another quite late at night. It was, I was at a magic convention in Wales. I was wearing a three piece of velvet suit.

[01:07:09] 'cause why not? 'cause why not? So this guy is, you know, he is really drunk and he is, uh, clearly yeah. Looking for a fight. And he is with his girlfriend and he's all, his adrenaline's kind of, you know, up here. And he starts shouting at me and says something like, what are you looking at? Or What's your problem?

[01:07:25] Or something in that situation you can't respond with, oh, I'm not looking at anything. 'cause then you are on the back foot and they've got power or, yeah, I'm looking at you. What's your. 'cause either way, you, you're gonna get hit, but you can just not play that game right from the outset. So I said, the wall outside my house isn't four foot high.

[01:07:43] So his reaction to that is a bit of a pause. He's like, what? I, oh, the wall outside of my house isn't four foot high. When I lived in Spain, the walls that were quite high, but here they're tiny titanium mean nothing. So, so he then he just went, oh fuck. And started crying. His girlfriend walked off and he sat down by the side of the road.

[01:08:04] I sat down next to him and started asking about what had gone wrong that night. I think his girlfriend had bottled somebody. There'd been some fight, and weirdly then I'm giving him. Giving him advice. I was talking to a friend of mine about this thing, and he, um, he's an artist and he used to walk home from his studio late at night to a rough bit of London, and there were always these kind of like gangs on one side of the road.

[01:08:22] So he'd always cross over away from them. Of course, they'd always see that, and it's always this horrible, uncomfortable, intimidating thing. So we spoke about it and then the next night he crossed over the road to them and, uh, said, good evening. As he walked past them, of course they left him alone because he just seemed like a strange

[01:08:40] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

[01:08:41] Derren Brown: I don't touch the, he's crazy. He's just, he's just weird. Yeah. Who wants to see a magic trick

[01:08:48] Jordan Harbinger: for an inside look at the levers in our own brain alongside Darren Brown, one of the world's most legendary illusionists and mentalists. Check out episode one 50 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Wired Politics Lab podcast.

[01:09:04] Hey, listeners, if you're digging our show, there's another one popping up right now that's right up your alley, especially with election season on the horizon. It's from the folks over at Wired and dives into how tech is reshaping our political landscape. The podcast is called Wired Politics Lab, spearheaded by Lee Feiger Wired senior politics editor, along with a rotating lineup of their political journalists.

[01:09:22] Tune into Wired politics lab every week to navigate the wild world of online extremism, conspiracy theories, and all that fake news madness. They're all about giving you the real deal through analysis, insightful conversations, and they throw in some handy tips to cut through that disinformation clutter.

[01:09:35] We talk about that here on this show a lot. As you know, make sure to follow the Wired Politics Lab wherever you listen to podcasts.