When your stepfather passed away and your mother posted about it on Facebook, an old friend — a self-described “swami” who claims to be psychically linked to her — called to reconnect. Now, he seems to be taking advantage of her grief and loneliness to get closer, and based on a number of his wild, unlikely claims, you’re worried that his end game may be less than altruistic. What can you do to stop this “swami” from swindling your mommy? We’ll tackle this and more here on Feedback Friday!
And in case you didn’t already know it, Jordan Harbinger (@JordanHarbinger) and Gabriel Mizrahi (@GabeMizrahi) banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week! If you want us to answer your question, register your feedback, or tell your story on one of our upcoming weekly Feedback Friday episodes, drop us a line at email@example.com. Now let’s dive in!
On This Week’s Feedback Friday, We Discuss:
- You worry that your mom’s “swami” friend may be trying to take advantage of her grief and vulnerability since your stepfather’s recent passing. How can you keep her safe from his less-than-altruistic intentions?
- You squandered a financial windfall in college on partying and substance abuse, which led to hurting a large number of friends and family along the way. Now you’ve been sober for years and you want to recover these relationships, but it’s clear from attempts to reach out that many of the people you left behind are content to leave those bridges burned. What can you do to move on and let things go?
- Your brother, who died by suicide, should be remembered for how he lived his life rather than just how it was ended. You want to start a foundation in his name to help your community learn skills as he loved doing, but where do you begin?
- You worked hard to advance in your career, but a recent merger no longer allows you to work from home and care for your daughter. As a result, you’ve decided to quit and become a stay-at-home dad, but you eventually want to return to the workforce. How can you network and stay relevant during this time away and ensure your time is spent as productively as possible?
- You worry that your tendency to procrastinate could cost you your dream job. How can you stop putting things off and causing yourself unnecessary stress and exhaustion?
- Documentary of the Week: The Dissident
- Have any questions, comments, or stories you’d like to share with us? Drop us a line at firstname.lastname@example.org!
- Connect with Jordan on Twitter at @JordanHarbinger and Instagram at @jordanharbinger.
- Connect with Gabriel on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi.
Like this show? Please leave us a review here — even one sentence helps! Consider leaving your Twitter handle so we can thank you personally!
Please Scroll Down for Featured Resources and Transcript!
ZipRecruiter: Learn more at ziprecruiter.com/jordan
Grief Day by Day: Get your copy today
Fruit of the Loom: Learn more at fruit.com
Progressive: Get a free online quote at progressive.com
Miss the two-parter we did with Instagram founder Kevin Systrom? Get caught up by starting at episode 335: Kevin Systrom | Life Lessons from an Instagram Founder Part One!
Resources from This Episode:
- Rachel Nuwer | Inside the Dark World of Wildlife Trafficking | Jordan Harbinger
- Scott Adams | Persuasion in a World Where Facts Don’t Matter | Jordan Harbinger
- What Is the Difference between a Swami and Guru? | Quora
- Dirty John | Netflix
- Cults, Scams, and Conspiracies Starter Pack | Jordan Harbinger
- How to Use Google Reverse Image Search to Fact-Check Images | Common Sense Education
- Real Estate, Apartments, Mortgages & Home Values | Zillow
- Love Fraud | Showtime
- Mark Edward | True Confessions of a Fake Psychic | Jordan Harbinger
- Amends Not Accepted | r/alcoholicsanonymous
- What Is Negativity Bias? | Healthline
- Review The Podcast | Jordan Harbinger
- Grief Day By Day: Simple Practices and Daily Guidance for Living with Loss by Jan Warner | Amazon
- 10 Habits of Successful Stay-at-Home Dads | HuffPost Life
- Six-Minute Networking
- Experiencing the Temporally Extended Self: Initial Support for the Role of Affective States, Vivid Mental Imagery, and Future Self-Continuity in the Prediction of Academic Procrastination | Personality and Individual Differences
- The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey | Amazon
- The to Do List to Organize Work & Life | Todoist
- James Clear | Forming Atomic Habits for Astronomic Results | Jordan Harbinger
- BJ Fogg | Tiny Habits That Change Everything | Jordan Harbinger
- Gretchen Rubin | Four Tendencies: The Framework for a Better Life | Jordan Harbinger
- Eat That Frog!: 21 Great Ways to Stop Procrastinating and Get More Done in Less Time by Brian Tracy | Amazon
- Solving the Procrastination Puzzle: A Concise Guide to Strategies for Change by Timothy A. Pychyl | Amazon
- Why Procrastinators Procrastinate | Wait But Why
- How to Beat Procrastination | Wait But Why
- The Dissident | Prime Video
547: Stopping a Swami from Swindling Our Mommy | Feedback Friday
[00:00:00] Jordan Harbinger: Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. Today, I'm here with my Feedback Friday producer, my Dutch uncle in deliverance, Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people. And we turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those lessons. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. So you can get a deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, even inside your own mind.
[00:00:35] If you are new to the show on Fridays, we give advice to you. We answered listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. And if you're joining us for the first time, or you're looking for a handy way to tell your friends about the show, we've got those starter packs. These are collections of your favorite episodes, organized by popular topic to help new listeners get a taste of what we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com/start to get started.
[00:01:05] This week, we had Rachel Nuwer on wildlife smuggling. This is a kind of a gross topic. That might be one of the grossest shows that I've done and I've done shows on human organ trafficking, okay. Wildlife smuggling is just next level depressing. But it was an interesting and fascinating conversation and an important one. And we also had Scott Adams, one from the vault. Persuasion tactics used by the former president, whether you think they're persuasion tactics or not. So we're going to do a dive into some of the psychology behind that as explained once again by Scott Adams, who's been on the show a few times now. So make sure you've had a listen to everything that we created for you here this week.
[00:01:44] Gabe, I know we've got a lot this week, so let's dive into the mailbag.
[00:01:47] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. We're two sisters who are concerned about our mom. Last summer, our stepdad of 20 years passed away after months of severe illness. The day after he died, our mom posted about it on Facebook. The day after that, a very old friend of our mom has, let's call him Barry, called her up, wanting to reconnect. On one hand, we're very happy to see our mom branching out socially and even getting into another relationship when she's ready. But there are several red flags with Barry that we just can't ignore. Red flag number one, when Barry first called her mom, he insisted that he never saw her post about her husband's death instead he claims that he is "psychically linked" to our mom and that he could sense something was wrong. He calls himself a Swami and has told her multiple times that all she has to do is think of him. And he will psychically receive her message and call her within a day or so. Coincidentally, she has thought about him at times and he has called her within a few days. So she takes that as proof that Barry has these special powers.
[00:02:44] Jordan Harbinger: Okay, hold up, for anyone who doesn't know, remind us what a Swami is.
[00:02:48] Gabriel Mizrahi: A Swami is basically a Hindu religious teacher.
[00:02:52] Jordan Harbinger: Okay. All right. So Barry from Missoula thinks he's an Indian mystic healer shaman. That's great. I just wanted everyone to know what that meant.
[00:03:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Exactly.
[00:03:02] Red flag number two, Barry has made some pretty bold offers about their future together, even though they've only met up a few times in person. When he first called her, he said that he "never wanted her to worry about anything," and that he would "take care of her." He has called her Mrs. Barry when they talk on the phone. He has offered to sell his property and buy her a house by the ocean, which is her dream.
[00:03:24] Jordan Harbinger: Great. This is some dirty John's sh*t, right? I've heard this podcast. Continue.
[00:03:29] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, that sounds familiar. Okay.
[00:03:30] Red flag number three, Barry has convinced our mom that he inherited a large fortune from his parents. Now, maybe he did, he does have some land and he's never seemed to worry about work. Still there are no obvious signs of his supposed status as a multimillionaire. Also, he claims to have traveled the world, but some of the photos he says he took while travelling, show up all over the Internet in a reverse image search.
[00:03:52] Jordan Harbinger: Amazing, right? So this lazy scammy Swami is just downloading photos from f*cking Flicker. What a pro? You know, who else has tons of unexplained money? Criminals, con artists, just saying. Continue.
[00:04:05] Gabriel Mizrahi: You may have picked up on this already, but our mom is gullible and emotional. For example, she's into the conspiracy theory scene in a major way, the quantum financial system, Joe Biden was executed at Gitmo last year and is now a body double, aliens geoengineering, anti-vax. The list goes on and on. This is on top of mystical, new age hooey, and several multi-level marketing schemes that she's gotten caught up in. She's also quite lonely. She lives in a rural area where she doesn't have many friends and her marriage to our stepdad was complicated. They didn't have much of an emotional connection for the last decade. And he left her in a bad position financially. She's now living in a house she cannot afford has an enormous amount of student debt and recently lost her job. Neither of us has the means to support her. She's starving for someone to care about her and treat her like she's special. We want to support our mom in her grieving and we want to support her in building healthy relationships. So how can we find out whether Berry is good for her and whether he's even telling the truth and do these red flags sound concerning to you guys? Or are we overreacting because we've lost so much of our faith in our mom's judgment? Signed, Saving Mom From a Swami Con.
[00:05:12] Jordan Harbinger: So he's not telling the truth, right? Like where do we even start with this one? Anyone listening right now has a ton of alarm bells going off. So we've got a grieving, isolated, gullible, love- starved, financially vulnerable woman and we've got a crafty, manipulative, love-bombing, pseudo spiritual savior wannabe, who's coming out of the woodwork, coincidentally just the right time to rescue your mom as she's in this grieving position, this vulnerable position. So yeah, this is bad news. You're not overreacting. If this were my mom, I'd be very concerned about Barry, the Swami, good old beast Swam over there.
[00:05:46] Obviously, we don't know if Barry's trying to run a serious scam on her. He could be, but he also just might be a delusional weirdo. At a minimum, he's moving in on your mom emotionally. And that alone is worrisome. Anything could happen from there? You know, this just occurred to me, Gabriel. He said, "Oh, if you think of me, I'll call you within a few days." That's such a huge window. All he has to do is call her every few days and she's like, "Oh my God. I was just thinking about you on Tuesday." And he's like, "That's right." Here it is Friday afternoon. What are the odds? And he just doesn't call twice a week and he's got it covered, right? Hello?
[00:06:20] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah.
[00:06:20] Jordan Harbinger: The big problem is you're up against a significant obstacle in your mom. In one way, she's highly manipulable. You'd think she'd be easy to convince, but the conspiracy mentality, the need to believe, these are very rigid mindsets. There's deep programming at work there. So this will take some doing.
[00:06:37] So, what can you do to save your mom? Well, first of all, you're going to have to resist the urge, at first, to convince her that she's wrong about Barry. Instead, I would actually — this might be a little counterintuitive — I would focus on building a strong foundation of trust and rapport with her. Because if you come at her like, "Mom, wake up, Barry's a fraud. He's scammy Swami. He's telling you what you want to hear. You're lonely. You're desperate. Can't you see you scamming you? You're being an idiot." She's going to shut down. You'll be tapping into her shame, her cognitive dissonance. You're going to trigger any narcissism, any need for control. Her response will probably be to reject you and dig our heels in.
[00:07:13] I'm not saying your mom's a narcissist. I'm just saying we all have this and you don't want to trigger it. But if you stay close with her, you'd be her friend. You make her feel understood and safe confiding in you. Even when what she is saying is objectivelly, bat sh*t crazy, you're going to have a much better chance of changing her mind. And I know that's what Dr. Steven Hassan would say. He's our resident cult mind control and conspiracy theory mindset expert. He'd say, "Approach her with love rather than judgment. Ask thoughtful questions, direct her to reevaluate what she believes, and remember that there is a mom beneath the compromised mom who's still listening to you, and that's the person you're speaking to." And I think that he's absolutely right when he says stuff like this, right? You got to remember your normal mom if she ever was normal, but like, you know, the mom you love is underneath, freaked out, vulnerable weirdo acting mom.
[00:08:05] And as you do that, I would start helping your mom identify some of the underlying thoughts and feelings that are making her so vulnerable to Barry in the first place. So when you give her a call or you come over to visit, engage with her. You know, like, "How, you feeling these days, mom? How, you doing since the funeral? Did you talk to Barry recently? How's that going? What do you like about him? What do you think he likes about you? How are you feeling about money these days? How's the job search going? Do you want to talk about anything?" Just questions like that. Obviously not all at once. That would be a little awkward, but organically, gradually over time.
[00:08:35] Hopefully, you can get her to acknowledge some of the very raw feelings that she is dealing with beneath the surface. I'm talking about her insecurity, her loss of control, her fear, her need to believe in something, her need to belong, to be taken care of by somebody else. As she opens up, listen carefully to what she says. Try to drive more towards feelings than ideas, reflect them back to her. You know, like, "I totally get it, mom. Money is really stressful. I feel that way too. And you're right. The world is crazy. It's scary to feel like you don't know what's real and what's fake. I get why you're looking for answers," that kind of thing.
[00:09:14] If you do this consistently, you'll build some really powerful trust and rapport with her, where her guard isn't up because she feels judged or threatened. She'll start to feel like you have her best interests at heart, which of course you do, but she needs to feel that first before you try to change her mind. Then and only then would I start to chip away at Barry the Swami's bullsh*t. And the way that I do that is to ask open, non-threatening questions. I'd say things like, "Tell us mom the other day, when you said you were worried about making the mortgage payment. I know how stressful that is for you. So when Barry says he's going to buy you a house, how does that feel? Is it kind of a relief?" Maybe she'll say something like, "Hell, yeah, it's a relief. Are you kidding? To not have to make the payments and I get to live by the ocean?" And you can say, "Yeah, I bet. If I were in your shoes, I'd want someone to rescue me too." And if she confirmed that, then you've got an easy opening to say, "But as your daughters who love you, we just got to ask, do you think Barry can actually do that for you? Or do you think maybe he knows that you like hearing that from somebody? I mean, why do you think he's offering you all of this so quickly? You're smart, mom. What do you make of that?"
[00:10:21] Obviously, you'll choose the questions that are most helpful, but that's the approach that I would take. Where you very gently, very respectfully ask your mom some questions. You don't tell her what to think, but you really encourage her to answer them for herself. I would do this with all of the red flags you mentioned over several conversations until the logic starts to seep in. And hopefully, your mom will realize that what this dude is saying is kind of sus, right? It's directly tied to how she feels these days. She'll start to put the pieces together.
[00:10:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right. Ideally, mom goes back to Barry, the Swam, be swam, and starts challenging him a little bit on what he's offering her, what he's saying. His response to her will probably tell her a lot about the game that he's running. And then she can share that with you guys. And the three of you can hopefully dissect it together and keep chipping away at whatever he's trying to pull it with your mom.
[00:11:09] Now, if your mom flat out, refuses to engage with you, or she keeps buying into Barry's bullsh*t, then I would get a little more proactive because your mom, she might need hard evidence to change her mind about this. I know, ironic, right? That conspiracy theorist needs hard evidence to believe something about this new guy in her life, but this is the psychology we're dealing with. So it's important to think ahead.
[00:11:28] So I'd start putting together the Barry files. I would screenshot the travel photos he posted and screenshot the reverse image search results proving that they're faked. Try to estimate how much his car is worth, how much his land is worth. You might be able to use a website like Zillow, or even hire a fairly reasonable land appraiser to do a quick evaluation. See if that lines up with what he's telling your mom about the wealth he supposedly has. You could use social media, you could use his life story, what he's shared with your mom, details of his biography to see if he's had any spiritual training. I mean, not that training as a Swami when you're born in Columbus, Ohio guarantees that you have any mystical powers whatsoever, but at the very least you can question his credentials a little bit.
[00:12:10] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you don't want a mail-order Swami right? Nobody wants a mail-order Swami, correspondence course Swami.
[00:12:17] Gabriel Mizrahi: You want the authentic Swami. The visa issues alone, I mean, it's just like a headache.
[00:12:23] You guys could even go a step further and reach out to any mutual contacts you guys have. Or even if they're not mutual contacts, I mean, you can reach out to his friends on Facebook and say, "Hey, do you know this guy? He's a friend of our family. He seems like an interesting guy, but just curious. How'd you meet him? What do you know about him?" You know, try to get some information. And if you need even more ammunition then you might want to consider hiring a private investigator. I know that's a little dramatic and that is super dirty John of me to propose, but hiring a private investigator could be useful, especially if things between mom and Barry start escalating quickly. You might be able to get a good file on this guy for a reasonable fee, a basic background check, credit check, employment history, maybe debt history, any bankruptcy filings, or criminal investigations, litigation, stuff like that. You never know what could turn up. And that could be the proof that your mom needs to look at this guy in a new way.
[00:13:11] But also if it turns out that he's clean and he's just kind of a low-key, I don't know, just a guy who wants to feel important. And he really does like your mom and he's not running some sophisticated game ,then at least you'll know that you don't have to panic immediately. Either way, I think it's good information to have.
[00:13:27] Jordan Harbinger: I can refer some good investigators if you need there. These guys are not cheap, you know, but they do the job right. And also, if you think about it, what's a couple grand if it's going to save your mom from signing over the house or her retirement account, or the annuity that your dad bought. You know, like that's the way that I look at these kinds of things.
[00:13:46] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, well worth it. And then I would share what you find or what you get from an investigator with your mom. And again, be thoughtful about this. Don't barge into her house and throw your Manila folder in her lap. Like, "Bam! Told you Barry's a fraud." Nothing like that. I would sit down with her very gently. Tell her that you're coming from a place of love. You're coming from a place of concern. And you know that this might be hard for her to wrap her head around, but you know that she would want you to share this with her and then tell her what you've learned. Again, try to lead with questions rather than advice. "Do you think a super wealthy guy would have all these high interest loans?" You know, that kind of thing. "Why do you think Barry's showing you fake travel photos?" Right? Go slowly. Draw her out. Let her draw her own conclusions.
[00:14:25] And, you know, Jordan, it's interesting. It's just occurring to me. Maybe their mom's conspiratorial mindset will actually turn out to be an advantage here in a certain way, because, you know, maybe they say, "Hey mom, you know how you're always trying to help me see the truth, right? Because there's so much misinformation out there. I think maybe we should do the same thing with Barry. You're smart. You think for yourself, right? Does this make sense?" And that way maybe they can tap into that mindset of hers, that conspiratorial kind of paranoid mindset to help her see through Barry's smokescreen.
[00:14:52] Jordan Harbinger: That's a good idea. I like that. This is a very smooth way of using the mom's framework against her, so to speak, but also for her. I think that's an example of what Dr. Hassan would call ethical influence. All part of the process of bringing your mom back from wherever she happens to be going with Barry, the Swami.
[00:15:09] So that's how we'd approach this. And if your mom refuses to listen, you might just have to intervene more strongly. Maybe you tell Barry to stay away from her. And if you have any evidence of criminal intent or wrongdoing, maybe you go to the police and tell them what's happening. Even a phone call from the cops could scare them off, but if he won't stop and your mom moves forward with him, then I would do everything in your power to protect her. Tell her not to merge their finances. Do not buy new assets. Do not take out new debt together. Do not get married. And I would continue staying as close to your mom as possible, so she has a link back to you guys, if and when her relationship with Barry goes sideways. I hope it doesn't get to that point, but you have to be prepared for anything. These scams happen every single day. And I hate to say this, but the targets of those scams, they fit your mom's profile to a T. So don't discount your instincts here. Take care of your mom, take care of yourself, and we're wishing you the best
[00:16:01] Gabriel Mizrahi: Man, Jordan, this story is so wild. Have you seen the documentary Love Fraud?
[00:16:06] Jordan Harbinger: No. What is that?
[00:16:07] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's a docu-series. I think it's on HBO right now. It's about this group of women who are all defrauded by the same dude who basically ran the same scam on them. I think it was in Ohio, now that I think about it. I wonder if that's why I said Ohio a moment ago.
[00:16:19] Jordan Harbinger: Is Barry, the Swami, also from Ohio?
[00:16:21] Gabriel Mizrahi: It has nothing to do with this guy, but this guy basically moved in on women who were lonely, who had money, got them to care about him, told them he loved them. You know, in every single case, it was the same story. He got tens of thousands of dollars out of. In some cases, he opened restaurants with them, stuff like that. And then he would just leave town, change his name and do it all over again. It's fascinating because in the documentary, all the women team up with a private investigator to try to track him down and turn them over to the police.
[00:16:50] Jordan Harbinger: Oh wow.
[00:16:51] Gabriel Mizrahi: It's so interesting. I highly recommend it, but it is a little bit alarming when you see the pattern. It sounds kind of similar to what's going on here.
[00:16:58] Jordan Harbinger: Also, with your mom, you may want to check out episode 413. This is Mark Edward. He's a mentalist, so like a magician type guy, but I used to work for a psychic hotline and he just explains how the fake psychic game works. And he said, there's two kinds of psychics. Well, there's no all kinds of psychics, but there's two kinds of fake psychics. One, the ones that know what they're doing is fake and it's just all BS. And it's either for entertainment purposes, like you're doing it at a magic show or it's a con like you do on a psychic hotline. Or you have diluted yourself into thinking that you actually have these powers. So Barry, the Swami, may be just kind of like a dip sh*tty old guy who's like you said, bored and looking to feel important and has diluted himself into thinking that he has these powers, which is markedly more harmless than somebody who's trying to grift and scam your mom by convincing her that he's a psychic or has special powers etcetera.
[00:17:53] And look, the background investigation thing. I feel like that is a good bet, Gabriel. Because you know, if this guy's rich, all right, he owns the land. You know what they're going to find? They're going to find that this land that he's lived on is like a rental property that he pays $900 a month from somebody else who lives in the neighborhood or as an out-of-state person. Or maybe he did inherit it, but like it's not worth anything and it's underwater and he just lives there and he's about to get evicted. "Yeah. Let me sell my house and buy you a house on the ocean. Oh, I moved." You know, like there's all kinds of crap like this out there, but yeah, every alarm bell in my head is going off.
[00:18:25] By the way, y'all can reach us email@example.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject that makes our job a lot easier. And if you can tell us what state and country you live in that helps us give a little bit more detailed advice, especially for legal stuff. If there's something you're going through, any decision you're wrestling with, or you just need a new perspective on life, love, work, whatever, what to do about a violent scammy landlord. Hit us up firstname.lastname@example.org. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous
[00:18:53] You're listening to Feedback Friday here on The Jordan Harbinger Show. We'll be right back.
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[00:20:04] Jordan Harbinger: This episode is also sponsored by ZipRecruiter. According to Forbes, gyms, nail salons, hotels, mom, and pop stores, and more are all set to go on an epic hiring spree in the coming months to meet the pent up demand for all of these services. I'm excited to get a much needed massage myself. I'm also excited to get back to traveling. I never thought I'd be so glad to pay $7 for a freaking bottle of water. All of these businesses reopening means that millions of jobs will need to be filled. So where do these businesses turn to fill roles fast, ZipRecruiter. And right now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/jordan. When you post a job on ZipRecruiter, they send your job to over a hundred top job sites giving you access to their network of millions of job seekers. ZipRecruiter's matching technology scans resumes to find qualified candidates for your open roles and proactively presents them to you.
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[00:21:05] Jordan Harbinger: And now back to Feedback Friday on The Jordan Harbinger Show.
[00:21:09] All right, what's next?
[00:21:11] Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, when I was still in college, I got an unexpected and hefty inheritance and I didn't make the best choices with that money. I traveled all over and partied, lied to most of my close friends and family about it, and ended up hooked on substances. When my closest friends found out the truth, they reached out to me and some even traveled to find it helped me. At the time, I would say, "This is the new me. Leave me alone. I'm having fun." A lot of them cut me out of their lives after that, and understandably so. After a year and a half of living like that, I realized how sick I really was and I found help. I've been sober now for two and a half years. I've since reached out to my friends back then. I've built back friendly relationships with some of them and others have told me that they're just not interested in letting me back into their lives. This hurts, but it's understandable. So I just thank them for their time. Then there are some who never responded and straight up blocked me on all social media. I have new friends and a new support group, but I just can't seem to let go of those people. I never heard back from. It's easier for me to let the relationship die if I get confirmation from the other party. Otherwise my mind is filled with what ifs. Any advice on what I can do to move on and let things go. Signed, Amending Fences.
[00:22:20] Jordan Harbinger: Wow. You've been on quite a journey, my dude. I'm glad to hear that you got clean, you rebuild your life. That I think is fantastic and definitely not easy to do so. Congrats there. It sounds like you've been doing a lot of amends over the last five years, which as you know, is an important part of recovery. It sounds like when people reject those amends, you can accept that. But when you don't get any response whatsoever, yeah, it creates a lot of uncertainty. And that uncertainty is hard for you. It's causing you to ruminate and obsess and I get why that's so tough. I think it would actually drive me crazy as well. Like, "Did you get my message?"
[00:22:53] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.
[00:22:53] Jordan Harbinger: "Why aren't you responding? Are you still mad? Do you just not care? Like what the hell?" Yeah. Yeah. So, what can you do?
[00:22:58] First of all rejected a men's. This is actually a big topic within the addiction community. It's very common. Most recovery programs, they talk about how you are ultimately powerless over other people. You can't control how they'll respond and as you probably know, making amends, that's ultimately not for you, it's for the person you've hurt. At least 99 percent of it is, right? If someone doesn't want to hear from you, the general advice is to respect that and just do your best to move forward with your recovery. But in your case, moving on is hard because you just don't have the information you feel you need to put a relationship to bed.
[00:23:32] I wonder if maybe what's happening is that in the absence of a response — you're doing what I would do, candidly, and imagining the worst case scenario. Like believing that the person despises you and wants you to carry this guilt, instead of imagining that they just might have a very full life now, a different life. Or that they don't know how to deal with their own feelings about your apology. Or who knows? Maybe they're stuck in addiction too, or they're going through some other life crisis and this is just like the last crap that they need right now. You just don't know. When we don't know something, as humans, we tend to tell ourselves a story that reflects our worst fears a lot of the time. And there's probably a name for that cognitive bias, Gabriel. I can't think of it off the top of my head. I know it applies to pretty much all people, not just people in your shoes. It's probably a negativity bias or something akin to that.
[00:24:18] Gabriel Mizrahi: Right.
[00:24:18] Jordan Harbinger: So I think the key to resolving this problem — actually I think negativity bias is overestimating the likelihood of a negative outcome, but it's similar, something like that.
[00:24:28] So I think the key to resolving this problem is not to get people to answer you or pretend like you don't really care what they think, you do care. And on some level you should care. The key is to figure out what it is about this uncertainty that's so difficult for you. What thoughts come up when somebody doesn't respond to your amends? What does somebody else's response or lack of response make you feel about yourself? Not to go I'll shrink on you here, but if you can unpack those questions a little bit, you could do it with a sponsor. You could do it with other friends in recovery. You could do it with a therapist. I think that this obstacle will become a lot more manageable for you. The pain might not go away completely, but you'll be able to process a lot of the stuff that comes up around it, which is where most of the relief will actually come from.
[00:25:13] Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. I agree, Jordan, he cannot control what other people do or say, but he can control how he processes the feelings, maybe the guilt or the shame just how he frames his story in light of their response — which who knows? I mean, that might even be more therapeutic long-term than just hearing somebody he was mean to five years ago. Say, "Yeah. It's okay. I forgive you." You know what I mean?
[00:25:33] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's a good point. I think that might mean living with a few of those old wounds as well. I know they're painful, but they don't need to be all bad. So as important as repairing those old friendships is for you, try not to pin all your feelings about yourself on these people. Sometimes you're just going to have to forgive yourself and forgive them for not forgiving you. And then just keep building the life you want to live, knowing that these mistakes as hard as they are, they're part of what got you to this point. And that makes them a valuable part of your story. Good luck, man.
[00:26:01] Oh, by the way, the show review instructions are updated. They were a little outdated. They were a little hard to follow. Please let us know if these are easier to use for those of you reviewing the show at jordanharbinger.com/review. We've got screenshots in there. We've got a little bit better documentation. And review the show while you're at it if you haven't already, jordanharbinger.com/review.
[00:26:24] All right. What's next?
[00:26:25] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi guys. Last year, my brother took his life at the age of 30. It was devastating and it's been a long healing process. The other day, my mom overheard someone refer to my brother as the kid who killed himself and wasn't found for days. It broke my mom's heart. I can't bring my brother back, but I sure as hell am going to do my best to make sure he isn't remembered for one decision that we all wish he hadn't made. He was a kind and intelligent man with so many talents, a great loss to the community. I want to start a foundation in his name to help our small community learn new skills, music, language, arts, and so on. I want people to have the opportunity to grow and learn as my brother loved doing. The problem is I don't know where to start. I've been compiling a list of people in my network who may be willing to share their skills. But other than that, I'm a bit lost. Where do I go from here to make this happen? Signed, Foundation Frustration.
[00:27:16] Jordan Harbinger: Oh man, I'm so sorry to hear about your brother. Losing someone to suicide, especially a sibling, it's got to be incredibly difficult. And then to feel like he's only being remembered for that one terrible thing when you know that he was kind and gifted and so many other things. I get why you'd want to memorialize him in a different way to try and create some good in his name. As I've mentioned a few times, Gabe and I are reading this book called Grief Day by Day by Jan Warner. She wrote it after her husband died. They were incredibly close. And her journey through mourning became this book, which lays out all of her insights and exercises for working through grief. And in the book, Jan talks a lot about this exact thing, how to keep someone's memory alive and how creating meaning out of their death is actually part of processing the loss.
[00:28:00] She actually says in the book, "That the most important moment of my life of grief was when I realized I wanted my husband's life to matter more than his death. I want to make everyday a celebration of who he was and what we had." And the way that she encourages people to do that is by putting those feelings into action. Converting grief into empathy or art or a conversation or a new project. She writes, "Healing for me is not getting over grief. Healing is learning to have my grief inspire me rather than dead in me." And it sounds like that's what you're trying to do for your brother with this foundation. So I think it's a great idea.
[00:28:33] So how do you make it a reality? Well, there are literally thousands of books and articles and courses out there about starting and managing a nonprofit. I'm no expert. I just recommend checking out a few of the best ones. I'm sure you can get a mini MBA in nonprofit management online if you want it to. But the best advice I can offer you right now is to make the mission of this foundation as specific and as practical as possible. So right now, your mission is to help your small community learn new skills, music, language, arts. And your vision is for people to have the opportunity to grow and learn as your brother loved doing. Awesome. Love it.
[00:29:07] But what does that actually mean? What product or service will you be providing? Think of it like a business, like any other business, what will it take to actually bring those services into the community? That's what you have to nail down. My recommendation is to choose one thing that you can really do well with a clear impact and make that the focus of the foundation, especially in the beginning. So for example, you could focus on only teaching one language or one instrument or one kind of art. Or you could offer a program that teaches all three, but only to one type of student like students under 12 or students from a specific background. Or another example, you could be a foundation that raises money that you then distribute to multiple other education programs. In which case, the one thing you're really doing great is fundraising.
[00:29:56] Once you get clear on that, things will become a lot easier. If you're teaching that one class you'll know that you need a space and instructor, a certain curriculum, some funding, instruments or whatever, for loaners, maybe partnerships with other institutions to find students for your program or instructor. If you decide to focus on fundraising, then you'll know that you need relationships with donors, maybe a few sponsors to host fundraising events, that kind of thing. But if you keep it at the level of, "Well, I'm helping my community learn new skills." This thing's never going to get off the ground, bluntly. It's like a startup saying, "We're going to make our users happy through technology." Okay, cool, but how? By building a meditation app, by creating a faster browser, by being a matchmaking service. You got to define the product. You got to whittle it down. You've got to get product market fit. The more laser-focused the more practical, the better.
[00:30:44] And I'd start talking to your friends, family, colleagues, mentors, interesting people that you meet and bounce the idea off of them as well. See what makes people excited? See what makes you excited? And then follow that feeling. And don't be afraid to experiment. Maybe you start by offering that one class and you discover that what your community really needs is a different kind of class or a different mix of students or the same class in a totally different neighborhood. Or you start with that one class and you raise a little money and then you scale it up to two, then three, then five. The foundation will evolve on its own. So just be willing to play a little bit and be nimble. Again, you're basically running a startup.
[00:31:19] In general though, I think it's an awesome idea. I think it's very touching that you want to do this in your brother's name. I know that the sense of purpose will translate into something great. It'll help you guys remember him in a new way. And Jan, she talks about that in her book too. She actually describes healing as taking memories back from the claws of grief. It sounds like this foundation is your way of doing that. So I wish you the best with it.
[00:31:43] And we'll link to the book that I keep talking about Grief Day By Day by Jan Warner in the show notes. It's available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, of course. You can also check out griefdaybyday.com. I recommend it.
[00:31:53] All right, what's next?
[00:31:54] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, J Fam. I'm happily married with a two-year-old daughter and a baby boy on the way. My job used to be extremely flexible in terms of letting me work from home, but a recent merger with another company has made the role a strict eight to five in-person job. After much deliberation, we decided that the best option would be for me to quit my job and become a stay-at-home dad. As the alternative would have been paying for a babysitter to raise our kids and spending next to no time with them. I honestly don't really know how I feel about this. There's a part of me that's completely on board and excited to spend so much time with my daughter. The other part feels like I worked so hard to get this far only to have it all crumble in front of me. Now, I'm at an absolute loss as to what to do with my time. I know if I'm not careful, I can waste it and let days just pass by. How do I structure what a non-work life routine looks like? Is there a way I can still network while juggling two kids? What should I start doing now so that when I go back to work, I can hit the ground running? Sincerely, Daddy Daycare.
[00:32:52] Jordan Harbinger: This is a great question. I'm sorry that your job has changed things up on you. I think that's probably jarring for anyone, but like you said, you're fortunate to spend this time with your kids. I actually think this new arrangement could be really grateful. Your growth doesn't have to stop completely just because you're staying home. But you're right, if you're not deliberate about your schedule, the time can just slip right through your fingers.
[00:33:12] So here's what I did. I would start by setting a loose intention for this new chapter. It could be discovering a project you really care about. It could be to deepen your expertise in your current field. It could be to take care of your health. You know, "Look, I'm going to work out every day and cook my own food and not eat at Burger King every day for lunch." You know, it could really be to invest in your kids and help them grow. It could be all those things. This right here will give this wide open ocean in front of you, a little bit of shape and a little bit of meaning. It'll be more than just changing diapers and driving kids around. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it'll be exciting for you as well.
[00:33:45] And then I would commit to a few goals and habits that will make that intention a reality. For example, one of them could be to work out for 45 minutes, five days a week. Honestly, I do this, even if you're not trying to get in killer shape, working out has a way of anchoring your day. It'll keep your spirits up. It'll lock you into a routine. If that's too hard to do with the kids, involve the kids. Bench press your baby, while you do sit up, so you can play with them while you work out. That's definitely like a dad life hack. I definitely worked out with my kid. Jayden kept bugging me during a shoulder day. And I just kept hoisting him up until my shoulders were on fire. And I did a bunch of sets of that and it works. Put your daughter in the stroller and go for a jog around the neighborhood. Not only will that create a habit, you'll be teaching your own children the importance of movement from a young age. So that's gold.
[00:34:30] I would also find some ways to invest in yourself, treat this period like an open-ended self-directed grad school. Take a few online classes, start some side projects, learn a new skill, complete some certs, read a book or two a month, start a newsletter to share your thoughts if you want to do that. Anything goes, it's totally up to you, but here's a good exercise to figure out where to focus. Picture yourself interviewing with a hiring manager into years after your dad's stint, you know, your stay-at-home, dad stint. What story would you want to be able to tell them? Which skills would you want to be able to say, "Yeah, I totally know how to do that. I took a class on it and then I did a ton of it on my own to stay sharp"? What skills or knowledge or relationships would you need to be a great candidate? Answer those questions then work backward and create a game plan. You don't have to leave this up to chance. You can create a roadmap for yourself by deciding where you want to end up.
[00:35:24] And then I would definitely keep investing in your relationships. Just because you're out of the workforce, it doesn't mean you can't be networking. In fact, you probably have even more time to meet new people, especially in the virtual space. Maybe you book a call with one new person in your industry every week so you can chat with them while the baby is napping. Offer your expertise, help make some introductions. If you commit to that simple goal — think about it — you'll know 50 new people in your field by the end of the year, and have spent decent amounts of time with them on the phone. I wouldn't be surprised if one of those people gets you your next job or opens up some other opportunities for you. And if you need some help with all this, check out the Six-Minute Networking course. We teach you how to reach out to people. Set these things up, systemize it, jordanharbinger.com/course. The course is free. I'm sure you've heard me talk about it a hundred times. And you can get creative here too. For example, you can start a book club, maybe even an online book club for stay-at-home dads or for other executives in your industry. So you can combine your reading goal with your networking goal. And that's just one example of how you can build the architecture to serve as multiple goals all at once.
[00:36:30] So that's my advice. Take the stay-at-home dad chapter into your own hands. It doesn't have to be a timeout from your career. You can be a present dad and a great professional. In fact, if you spend your time, well, this chapter might even advance your career in a surprising way. I know this decision was kind of a blow to your identity, maybe even your sense of self, but I also think it's an amazing opportunity to develop an even better one. So be deliberate, be disciplined, be curious, create strong systems and tiny habits to run your life. So you don't have to spend extra time worrying about whether you're making the most of it or feeling stagnated, but most importantly, man, enjoy this time, it is a gift. And your relationship with your children will be so much stronger because of it. And I think it's bad-ass that you're just going to do. I think you're going to treasure this period of your life, especially once your kids are grown. Or when you go back to work, I think this is going to be like the best two years of your decade or possibly of, you know, the next 20, 30 years. This might just really be the best time of your life in many ways.
[00:37:33] This is The Jordan Harbinger Show, and this is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back.
[00:37:38] This episode is sponsored in part by Fruit of the Loom. When it comes to apparel, kids need a fit that's designed to fit a kid. That's why at Fruit of the Loom they thoughtfully make and specifically tailor their clothes and underwear to ensure they can deliver a great fit to kids of all shapes and sizes. Sure, they could just make smaller versions of their adult styles, but kids and adults just aren't built the same. That's why only Fruit of the Loom can offer the best fit guarantee. So whether you're looking for underwear, tees, sweatshirts, or sweatpants, Fruit of the Loom has a variety of styles and fabrics to fit all your kids' apparel wants and needs. No matter the kid, no matter the cut, Fruit of the Loom offers the best fit guarantee.. Check out Fruit of the Loom kids' underwear and clothes at fruit.com.
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[00:40:21] All right, next up.
[00:40:23] Gabriel Mizrahi: Hey, Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 30-something woman working in what I would consider my dream job. I just moved to a city I love and I bought a house with my husband in the perfect neighborhood. On paper, I am put together. The problem is I'm a huge procrastinator to the point where thinking of work and life tasks keeps me up at night with my mind racing. Then the next day I will fail to accomplish most of these things. I will clean my house or cook a nice dinner or work in the garden instead of just hammering away at these tasks. I'll leave one email I'm dreading dealing with on opened in my inbox for weeks yet, respond to hundreds more in the meantime. Why? The worst part is when I finally do jump in and face these tasks, it doesn't take as long and it isn't nearly as bad as I think it's going to be and I feel relieved afterwards. I finally reached out to some friends, my mom, and my sister, all of whom I consider successful high-performers and they've all admitted that they have the same problem. Procrastination and then dread over it resulting in hitting snooze over and over the next morning and being exhausted. Is this some kind of known phenomenon? How can I stop putting things off and causing myself unnecessary stress and exhaustion? Signed, Put Off by Just How Much I'm Putting Off.
[00:41:32] Jordan Harbinger: Another great question. Well, first of all, is this a known phenomenon? Uh, yeah, absolutely. Are you kidding me? Probably half of the self-help industry deals in some form with procrastination, right? I mean, any book you see online or any of these videos, this is a human thing. We seek out the easy and pleasurable stuff. We avoid the difficult, painful stuff. It's not just you. I mean, look at your friends and your mom and your sister. I even deal with this still to some degree. And honestly you acknowledging it so openly, it's a great step in overcoming it.
[00:42:03] But before we talk about that, it's worth talking really quickly about why we procrastinate. One theory is that procrastination happens when there's a disconnect between our present self and our future self. It's not as woo-woo as it sounds, right? Even though we know that the person who has to finish the project in two weeks is the same person we are today, right now. Avoiding that same project, eh, we tend to not have as much empathy for that future person. In general human beings are more focused on how they feel today. Just one of our many unfortunate cognitive biases. In fact, this one study found that people who were more in touch with their future selves, both two months and 10 years down the line, they actually reported fewer procrastination behaviors. We'll link the study in the show notes.
[00:42:45] Another explanation is plain old resistance. We procrastinate to avoid something unpleasant. It could be the difficulty of the task. It could be a resentment about even being obligated to do the task. It could be a fear of failure. That's a very common one. And the fear that's closely related to perfectionism. We want something to be perfect, right? So we put it off and then it drags on. And then we think we're doing that because we have these super high standards, but really we're just avoiding some unpleasant feelings in ourselves. This, by the way, is why I often put off important things. By the way, I know I need to sit down. I know I need to think about how I phrase everything. I need to plan it out. I need to script the email a little bit more. So I just wait until I'm in the right mood to do this, which is literally freaking never. So I use systems to defeat this, which I'll talk more about now.
[00:43:31] And then there are more mundane explanations for why we put things off — struggle with focus, lack of confidence, low efficacy, poor planning, being spread too thin. All of those could explain why you procrastinate. So it takes some time to figure out which of these variables apply to you. Don't make it a whole project. You don't need another reason to avoid work, right? But it is worth diagnosing. Maybe talk to your family, discuss it with a therapist or a coach, figure out what's going on beneath your procrastination. My hunch is that it's the avoiding-unpleasant-feelings thing and the not-taking-your-future-self-seriously thing.
[00:44:07] In my experience, that's usually what's going on, especially for a high performer like you. From there, you'll be in a much better place to fix it. And here are a few ways to do that. First develop different systems and habits, just like the stay-at-home dad. Oftentimes, when we procrastinate, we just have bad architecture and don't worry. I'm not going to bore you with some like 1990s Franklin Covey, get it done, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, get a day planner crap right now. You can read all about that online if you want. But I will say that teaching your brain to get things done, even when you don't want to do them, that's very powerful.
[00:44:41] And if you do it enough, it will create new habits, which are literal pathways in your brain. And in just a couple of weeks that new get-stuff-done software, it's going to replace the old avoid-this-at-all-cost software. And while you do that, give yourself some positive reinforcement to cement the habit. Maybe you grab your cup of coffee after you answer a few emails in the morning. Maybe you would get more praise and a better review from your boss for getting your work done on time. Or maybe your reward is just not feeling anxious and getting a good night's sleep. I know this is kind of hokey, but the science really does show that when you pair an aversive task with something enjoyable, its value increases. And your likelihood of procrastinating on it decreases.
[00:45:25] So for me, I've got checklists in the to-do list app on my phone and on my computer for everything like this — answer five important emails, answer 20 LinkedIn messages, answer 10 Instagram DMs, whatever. That way I don't look at my inbox and go, "Oh my God, there's a ton of sh*t in there. And I'm never going to get it all done. Let's make homemade ravioli," right? I understand how that can degrade into that specific type of procrastination. But if I just go, "I got to get through five important emails, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 done. Okay. Now I'm good." I chip away at everything. And then before I know it, I'm like, "Oh, I only have a few things left." And I get on a roll and I start to do the work. It's like the old go outside and put your running shoes on, but you don't have to go running unless you actually want to at that point. And then you're like, "Well, screw it. I'm outside with my shoes on." It's like those little tiny bites. That's super helpful.
[00:46:12] And if you need a crash course in habit formation, I'm going to link a bunch of great episodes for you in the show notes. Just don't listen to them as a way of avoiding your email, do your email, and then listen to them or listen to them while you do your email. Or better yet just do your email and realize you don't need to listen to them at all. And my last tip again, not original, but this one is great. Tackle the least pleasant thing to do on your to-do list. The first thing in the morning, before you do anything else, right? This is called eating the frog. I think there's a productivity book, which has probably 200 pages of just saying, do the least pleasant thing on your list first. I started doing this years ago. It's been an absolute game changer. If you try to work up to the unpleasant thing later, you're going to dread it for the whole day and that will infect your whole mood, which will make you put it off even longer, which will make you push it to tomorrow. And the cycle just repeats over and over again. And so you have a bunch of crappy days and you finally bite the bullet. Short circuit that pattern. I think it was Mark Twain, who said, "If it's your job to eat a frog, it's best to do it first thing in the morning. And if it's your job to eat two frogs, it's best to eat the biggest one first."
[00:47:17] Like you said when you finally do face these tasks, they're not even as bad as you think they're going to be. So tell yourself that when you're feeling avoidant and just dive in. Your brain will catch up. I promise. And while you do that, take a few seconds to think about your future self. Really picture her. Remind yourself, she's you and you are her and whatever you're feeling right now, it'll feel worse for her in a week. Again, I know it's cheesy, but the science says this is real. The more you integrate your present self and your future self, the less you're going to put things. If you try all that, I really do think you're going to be able to conquer this thing. You don't even need to conquer it a hundred percent, especially at first. If you get 30 percent better at this, your life will change dramatically and then you can get better and better over time from there.
[00:47:58] Also, we found a good book for you. It's called Solving the Procrastination Puzzle: A Concise Guide to Strategies for Change by Timothy A. Pychyl. He's one of the top procrastination researchers around. It's probably full of gems. We'll link to that book in the show notes. I actually talked to this guy years and years and years ago. That interview is long gone, but I remember talking with him on the phone. Systems, habits, introspection, that's your game plan. Good luck.
[00:48:24] This documentary of the week is brought to you by Fruit of the Loom. Thanks to Fruit of the Loom for sponsoring the documentary recommendation of the week here. I also recommend looking in your underwear drawer and replacing the ones whose best days might be behind them. Look to Fruit of the Loom for that.
[00:48:36] My recommendation this week is The Dissident. The Dissident is about the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. A little dark, obviously, but it's more about Saudi Arabia's effort to control international dissent. And it's a little dark, but it's really well produced. It follows the assassination of Khashoggi and also sort of documents other dissidents from Saudi Arabia that are essentially on the run from Saudi crown prince Mohammed bin Salman. Look, it might be a little bit documentary nerd or political policy nerd, but I thought it was entertaining and interesting. And Jen liked it too, and she doesn't follow a lot of this stuff. So I think you really dig it. The Dissident, we'll link it in the show notes.
[00:49:14] Hope y'all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone who wrote in this week and everyone who listened. Thanks for that. A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. There's a video of Feedback Fridays that goes up on our YouTube channel eventually at jordanharbinger.com/youtube. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on Twitter, @JordanHarbinger on Instagram, or you can hit me on LinkedIn where my name is Jordan Harbinger. You can find Gabe on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi or on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi.
[00:49:43] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty , Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions, those are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting. Share the show with those you love. If you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.
[00:50:17] Here's what you should check out next on The Jordan Harbinger Show.
[00:50:21] Kevin Systrom: I think I did it in a way that most people don't. I just wanted to work on my own. I wanted the chance to build something from scratch "my way". I didn't know it was going to be a startup. It was just me. I was futzing around with ideas. I just need space, a table, my old laptop and a few ideas. It took more than a few to get to Instagram, but that was the way I did it back then.
[00:50:44] We think there's a reason why startups are started by like 20-year-olds. You can go hard to 4:00 a.m. every single day, or maybe even longer.
[00:50:52] Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.
[00:50:53] Kevin Systrom: You don't get sick. Like you don't really have kids. And that's part of the beautiful thing about entrepreneurship is that you can make a lot happen with a few people, highly leveraged. And if you stay healthy and everything goes well.
[00:51:05] We talked a lot about having like one-tap magic. All Instagram was, was like that hour and a half in Photoshop in 0.5 seconds at the beginning, going down to what five milliseconds towards the end. Rarely does your plan A workout so you have to be able to be quick to move to where the fire starts.
[00:51:25] You can't will a lightning, is what I'm saying. YouTube was a dating site. That's crazy.
[00:51:30] Jordan Harbinger: That's wild to think about now.
[00:51:31] Kevin Systrom: But you can go back and you can actually see in the Wayback Machine, like what it looked like way back in the day. And it's striking actually.
[00:51:39] I hope in startups that someday there will be this moment where retro is cool again, where like people are like, "We don't have an app. We're just on the web."
[00:51:47] Jordan Harbinger: For more from Kevin Systrom, including how to get honest feedback from others and when you should and should not listen to it, check out episode 335 right here on The Jordan Harbinger Show.
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