1214: Boss’ Flirtation Highlights Marital Frustration | Feedback Friday

1214: Boss' Flirtation Highlights Marital Frustration | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the lift, VFA helping me. Carpet bomb your mind with insight and visit them. Visit them. I'm leaving it Gabriel Rahi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Wow. Just casually comparing us to the darkest chapter of German history and nailing the WSV.

I'm just

Jordan Harbinger: gonna say human history in the last century or two, but yes, interesting choice. You are looking for your over there in Europe. If, if that road trip last week comes, what is that? Oh, that's like, um, space to live, but has a connotation. Space to live. Yeah. It means like living space and it was the term for German expansionism where they were kind of like, we need more room for our great people.

Got it. Let's take over Czechoslovakia.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Got it. Yeah. Darth Vader Manifest Destiny. Got

Jordan Harbinger: it. Yeah. Kind of that a hundred percent. A hundred percent

Gabriel Mizrahi: dark. But I see where you're getting at. Okay. Yeah. I am enjoying. This living space over here. Yes. A very non [00:01:00] totalitarian kinda way. Yeah. So

Jordan Harbinger: far so good. On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, organized crime figures, war correspondents, neuroscientists, rocket scientists, investigative journalists, and money laundering experts. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, and tasteless compare Gabe to various imperial military branches of World War ii Germany.

Mm-hmm. We do do that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm-hmm. Jordan, you just got back from a speaking gig the other day, right? I did. What was that like, by the way? Where were you? I don't even understand what this talk was about.

Jordan Harbinger: I was at a conference called Change the Game in Sunny South Dakota. It was actually put on by the Sioux Falls, South Dakota Chamber of Commerce, and I was the closing keynote and it was fun.

That sounds like an episode of Parks and Recreation right there. It kind of does, but I will say it was a blast. I really, I [00:02:00] enjoy speaking a lot. It's an excuse for a fun trip. Yes. You're like, but dude, you went to South Dakota. Let me finish. I get to talk about my favorite topic, which is relationships.

One of my favorite topics. I get to meet a bunch of cool people. Yeah, that's so cool that you do that. It must be so fun. It is gold, man. I love it. It's also funny 'cause I really felt like I was on a different planet. It was like going back to America, I bet, in the eighties or nineties, but in a good way.

Not like, oh, this place is so backwards. It was like, oh yeah, there's 3.5 cows for every person and not everyone is on their phone all the time. And there's a lot of people who work outside. The state of South Dakota can literally fit England in it, except it has 1 million people.

Gabriel Mizrahi: South Dakota can fit England inside of it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Wow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I

Jordan Harbinger: would not have guessed that. By the way. 300,000 or something of those, uh, 1 million people they live in Sioux Falls. The rest are spread out. That's why it's more cows than people. Got it. Everyone was crazy. Nice. I just left the place being like, America would be better if kind of the whole country was like these [00:03:00] people.

Everyone was super nice and welcoming. The state name, of course, very Native American, but everyone there that I met in the city of Sioux Falls is like white and six feet tall and blonde, and. I asked everybody like, oh, what's your family history? Everyone was Nordic slash also German, and they came over in like 1865 or whatever.

That makes sense. And I looked it up and that was actually about right because the Homestead Act of 1862, so right around where everybody said they came, it attracted Germans, Norwegians, Swedish, Irish, Czech immigrants along with settlers from the Eastern us. So there's a lot of sort of like Swedish, Scandinavian, Germanic, whatever, farmers.

Again, it was like they were crazy. Nice. I was. They're like, what are you doing for dinner tonight? Do you need any recommendations? I was like, yeah, I'm gonna go to this place. People told me about this steakhouse and they're like, you're not going alone, are you? And I was like, yeah, I'm going alone. And they're like, do you want us to join you?

And I was like, oh, how sweet are these people thinking I'm gonna be lonely for dinner? And I was like, no, I have two kids at home. I wanna be alone. I [00:04:00] am more than happy to wear headphones at the table alone. I'm just laughing

Gabriel Mizrahi: at the irony that you just gave this talk on relationships and everyone's like, do you want some company?

And you're like, hell no. Absolutely not.

Jordan Harbinger: Leave me alone.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Absolutely

Jordan Harbinger: not. Yeah, no, thank you. Networked out. I got the dad carve out on the networking requirements. I absolutely do now. I was like, oh, I have a bunch of stuff I have to finish, which is true. And I did get a lot done during that meal, but mostly I just like tuned the heck out.

By the way, if you want me to speak at your event and then ignore you afterwards, I love I again, I love speaking and I do this all over the world. Email meJordan@jordanharbinger.com. Anywhere is fine. People are like, oh, I don't, I don't have a cool thing to come to all the way out here in Florida. It's like, I just went to Sioux Falls, South Dakota and had a great time, so please indulge.

I shall indulge. Alright, Gabe, what's the first thing outta the

Gabriel Mizrahi: mailbag? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I have a good job in the sciences. I've been doing this for a long time and have friends across the field who I've helped grow into their positions as my [00:05:00] peers and even superiors. One of these peers is currently my boss.

We've been friends for a long time, have always bantered like siblings and respect each other as professionals and as people. I can easily switch my demeanor from a respectful employee to, okay, now F off, you're bothering me without issue. That's just how our relationship is. I personally like the relaxed nature of our dynamic because I respect his position, but.

I'm not intimidated in any way. I stand up for myself, share my opinions on projects and welcome feedback, whether it's, wow, that was a good point, or When the fuck are you gonna proofread your text messages? Someone once told me that in the boss's eyes, I could do no wrong. I didn't like hearing that at all.

I didn't respond and never spoke of it again. You never know with office gossip. Then recently we had our annual company event where we all get together, hang out, drink, and laugh. Oh boy, putting my poncho on the dues. Cruise is going under a waterfall. I see it coming. My boss started with his banter in [00:06:00] front of other coworkers who were egging him on.

People started joking about who would win in a fight. My boss said, quote, your husband might be afraid of you, but I'm not unquote. This led to some back and forth fu and chuckles. But then he leaned in and whispered something to me about how fighting me would be such a turn on. This happened in front of other people, women.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Not a good look. Not cool

Gabriel Mizrahi: to you. Very cringey. Very cringe. You're doing the full body cringe over there. Mm-hmm. You're pinching. Yeah. Jordan is pinching the bridge of his nose and rounding his shoulders forward. You do You know that cringe.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's like the official pose of every dad when his son gets arrested for indecent exposure and you're just like, that's exactly, damn.

I'm gonna tell my wife about this.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I was so uncomfortable. I'm sure my face was a cross between deer and headlights and uneasy smile. I shook my head. I called him a weirdo and turned my back to talk to others. We all continued to party and carried on like nothing happened.

Jordan Harbinger: If, I'm sorry this happened, but it, it sounds [00:07:00] like you handled it pretty well.

You didn't escalate. I agree. You didn't create a scene in the moment, just sort of gently shut it down and moved on. I, you know, nice.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm now wrestling with many different emotions. I hate that my boss was stupid enough to say something like that to me. I'm embarrassed and angry that he said those things in front of other coworkers who I fear will gossip, which could hurt my reputation as a hard worker and as a tough but warm individual.

And I fear people. Second guessing my dynamic with the boss. I'm shaking just thinking of the judgment. I totally get it. There's another part that I'm wrestling with though in a way I liked being head on.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting. It reminded me of fun, impulsive times in my twenties where I made fun, but sometimes irresponsible decisions.

Remember the feeling of hooking up with a classmate, that first kiss, pushing each other against the wall, just being irresponsible. Then again, marriages and professional relationships weren't part of the equation then. Look, I can appreciate that. I get it, and [00:08:00] I hate that. I liked being hit on, I haven't felt pretty or desirable in a very long time, but just because I liked feeling noticed doesn't mean I have feelings for my boss.

I don't. But it's confusing at work Now it's business as usual. Luckily, I rarely see my boss at home. I'm trying to flirt with my husband more. I give him a little tap as he walks by. Tell him how handsome he looks, things like that. This is in hopes that he will flirt back and I can redirect my confusion towards the relationship I love.

My marriage is the relationship that means most to me. We've been married for 10 years, we're parents, and now we're growing into roommates. I do need to talk to him and tell him what I need, but I'm not sure how to do it without being too serious. I have no intention of telling him what my boss said. I did nothing wrong.

Even if my emotions are a bit chaotic, I really want to talk to someone, but I'm deeply afraid of judgment. Talking to a coworker is a no-go. I have one friend at work I deeply trust, but if I want what my boss [00:09:00] said to not get around, I probably shouldn't tell a soul normally. I would just want to ignore this and hope no one remembers anything.

Not this time. I want to talk to my boss and call him out. I think he has a crush on me. Yeah. Yes, I would say so. That's correct. Frankly, those are his feelings to sort out, and he needs to have more self-control. I want him to know that he could have compromised my professional reputation, making me look like a flirt or a Jezebel.

I don't want him to think he can talk to me in a sexual way again, but I also don't wanna make it an intense conversation. Do I talk to my boss? How should I word this? How do I have the conversation with my husband about please, aggressively do X, Y, Z? And how do I grapple with these feelings of paranoia, anger, insecurity, and unmet needs?

Signed a listener who would relish avoiding a serious blemish after I turned reddish when my boss became coquettish.

Jordan Harbinger: Man, there is so much going on here, so

Gabriel Mizrahi: much

Jordan Harbinger: going on. Let me start by saying, I'm sorry your boss behaved this way, that he put you in this uncomfortable [00:10:00] situation, that he did this in front of your colleagues.

I get why it didn't sit well with you. To be fair though, when people are drinking, they're disinhibited, they do and say stuff they normally wouldn't, kind of why people drink in the first place. Also, why they kind of need to be careful with it at work, but, uh, that doesn't excuse the behavior of course, but it, it sounds like your boss does have some feelings for you.

I'm not gonna sugarcoat that they spilled out that night. He is maybe slash probably as embarrassed as you are or he should be. So yeah, I do think you need to talk to your boss. I think the conversation is something like, look, we have an unconventional relationship. We're friends. We move between being colleagues and being peers and I really appreciate that we can be open and irreverent with each other.

But what you said at the company event, that was not cool. It wasn't appropriate. It made both of us look bad and I think it raised some questions in the minds of our colleagues who already see that we have kind of a unique relationship and I just, I need to tell you that and I need to ask you to never do that again.

I also wanna make some room for us to talk about our relationship and what we want [00:11:00] from. Here's where I stand. And then you, you know, you tell him how you view him, how you feel about him, that you want your relationship to remain purely professional and say, Hey, where do you stand? Do we need to talk about anything?

Are we good?

Gabriel Mizrahi: I like that. And maybe you also throw in there, look, I'm bringing this to you because I care about our relationship. I care about both of our reputations. I want us to both be successful here. And since the lines of our relationship are already a bit blurry, I don't want us to have any unnecessary ambiguity, you know?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I like that. I think he'll respect that. It's direct, but it's kind. It's thoughtful. But let's talk about you for a moment. I understand that your feelings here are complicated. You didn't like being hit on by your boss. You don't have feelings for your boss, but you did like being hit on in general.

It's been a while since you felt desired. It sounds like you and your husband are slipping into that place that so many married couples slip into where you know, you're a decade in, there's a ton of logistics to manage. You're feeling like roommates. I can totally appreciate why this attention meant something to you and why it stirred something up in you.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, [00:12:00] I do get that. But I also appreciate that she's able to separate out these feelings pretty well. She's clear about where to direct them, which relationship is more important to her. I think that's really encouraging.

Jordan Harbinger: Agreed. You deserve props for being constructive and responsible about those feelings.

If you're definitely not into your boss, you still love your husband, you still wanna work on your marriage, this is absolutely the right approach. So I like that you're flirting with your husband, complimenting him, making more of an effort. That's exactly what you have to be doing. And yeah, if he's not taking the freaking hint or you guys are struggling to reconnect, I do think a direct conversation could be useful.

I guess part of this is being a little bit tactical, like, please aggressively do X, Y, Z. Hey, that's fair game. But if you have drifted apart in a deeper way, you know, you guys might wanna talk about the bigger picture. Why has this happened? How are you both feeling these days? What would it take to be more in sync?

Physical intimacy is a big part of that, of course, but it sounds like there might be other conversations to have too, and I, I wonder if those conversations are actually more important.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You're hitting on something important here. Actually, the [00:13:00] most important thing, because the big theme of her letter is how hard these conversations seem to be for her.

Like she said, I do need to talk to him and tell him what I need, but I'm not sure how to do it without being too serious. I really wanna talk to someone about all this, but I'm deeply afraid of judgment.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. She brought up that judgment thing a few times actually.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And her conclusion there is, well, I, I probably shouldn't tell a soul.

And then she also said, I want to talk to my boss and call him out, but I also don't wanna make it an intense conversation.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So in a bunch of different areas of her life, she's saying, I need to have this important conversation, but I don't want it to be too serious or too intense, or too risky, or basically too much.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And so my question is, what makes a conversation too serious or too intense? Like what is the barometer there? But maybe more importantly, what's wrong with these conversations becoming a little serious or a little intense? I mean, working to save your marriage, doesn't that deserve to be a little serious?

I mean, this is really important.

Jordan Harbinger: It's a good point. I'd say the same about her conversation with her boss. He said something very loaded, very [00:14:00] inappropriate. It has real professional repercussions for both of them and personal ones for that matter. I don't know if you can have that conversation without being a little intense.

When your boss hits on you in front of all your colleagues, you're allowed to be a little intense.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I get the sense that at the root of all of this is a profound fear of what other people will think of her if she comes at these conflicts. You know, earnestly fully with all of her passionate intensity about what happened.

I mean, the reason that this incident with her boss threw her for such a loop is that it happened in front of her coworkers. She's afraid that they're gonna gossip, that it's gonna compromise her very strong reputation, that they're gonna wonder about the nature of her relationship with her boss, which I totally get.

She's right to be concerned about that. Yes. But then she said, I am shaking just thinking of the judgment that jumps out at me too, that, I mean, that's a strong reaction. So there's more to this concern than just, you know, what will people think? There's something about other people's judgments, or what she imagines would be their judgments that feels extremely scary and dangerous,

Jordan Harbinger: which explains the quote unquote [00:15:00] paranoia she described.

I think she knows that her concern about other people's opinions has tipped over into something else. So. My hunch is that there might be some projection happening there. She has her own feelings about her boss. She knows how she would feel if she saw this happen to somebody else. And she's assuming that other people will be similarly judgmental.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm also gonna guess that would feel so scary about other people's judgments, real or imagined, is that she can't control them, which I

Jordan Harbinger: also get that is terrifying for anybody,

Gabriel Mizrahi: but especially someone who works very hard to cultivate a certain image. And so the natural strategy, it sounds like, is to carefully manage how people see her, what people think of her,

Jordan Harbinger: which again, she'd be silly not to do that to some degree.

She's a professional

Gabriel Mizrahi: for sure. And the answer isn't to go around talking about this with a bunch of people at the office. Office. Gossip is real. She's being smart. But when your fear and paranoia make it impossible to open up to someone during a challenging time, including by the way a friend at work, you say you deeply trust, then that's probably a sign that there's something to look at.

It might be the [00:16:00] projection Jordan just mentioned. It might be the control piece. It might just be a fear of vulnerability, both in talking about something so loaded and also in trusting another person to really keep your confidence and not judge you. I'm gonna let you figure that out. But my sincere wish for you is that you find somebody you can open up to about all this because it's clearly bringing up a lot for you, and it is complicated, and I think everybody deserves a safe person to share something like this with, you know, without worrying that it's going to completely tank your reputation.

Jordan Harbinger: I totally agree. It's interesting. I'm just remembering something she said that kind of slipped by me. At first, it was this part where she said, I have no intention of telling my husband what my boss said. I did nothing wrong.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Mm. Yeah. So there's one more person she's not sharing this with. Right?

Jordan Harbinger: Maybe the most important person in the equation besides her.

So yeah, when you were reading the letter, my first thought was, yeah, I guess that makes sense. Does he need to know their boss did a dumb thing and it went nowhere. The only thing that matters is that she's channeling this into making more of an effort with her husband. You know, why complicate the work situation?

But now that we're talking [00:17:00] about all this, I am wondering if she's also hiding from her husband, sparing him from something uncomfortable, sparing herself from a conversation that would also be too intense or too serious. I mean, if you can't tell your spouse about this very significant thing in your life where you didn't do anything wrong.

Where you in fact handled it pretty well and you wanna nip it in the bud and you're using it to understand your own feelings and needs better. Is that maybe part of the reason that they feel like roommates? Exactly. That's exactly right. And I'm just now realizing that that's at the heart of her conflict.

She wants intimacy and she wants to avoid having these very real conversations with people where she shares meaningful parts of her life with others.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And she can't have both.

Jordan Harbinger: No. Right. But I totally understand that conflict. 'cause we all have that conflict to some degree. But until you risk feeling this vulnerability, until you dare to stir up potentially difficult feelings in someone, until you are willing to tolerate other people's opinions of you, then your relationships can only be so deep.

But look, if you're not ready to do that, if you need some help getting there, that's [00:18:00] okay. There's always one kind of relationship you can always count on to be safe, and that's the one you have with a therapist. And if you need help working on things with your husband, I would consider couples therapy too at an important crossroads in your marriage.

And this is the moment to lean into it and find each other again. Or it'll just get harder and harder to find your way back. I'm very sorry your boss acted this way, but man, look at everything he brought to the surface, not just about your relationship with him, but about the one with your husband, with your friends and colleagues, and most importantly with yourself.

This is extremely useful stuff to look at. I'd start with the conversation with your boss and then your husband. I think it's important and I have a feeling it'll go well and then start thinking about all the others. Good luck. You know what else would be a turn on if you took advantage of the deals and discounts and the fine products and services that support this show?

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Now, back to feedback Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, next up. Hey, Jordan and a IE Gabe, what the heck is that? Is that Portuguese? A IE? That's Portuguese for like, Hey, hey. Got it up Obrigado. Over the summer, a student in my 10-year-old daughter's class, let's call her Piper, sent my daughter repeated messages saying she would fucking kill her when she walked into fifth grade.

Not vague bullying, not name calling, literal death threats In the fifth grade group, chat over and over, explicitly tied to school. [00:22:00] She even told my daughter to quote unquote, exit left so she wouldn't have to kill her in school and then started doxing her on TikTok.

Jordan Harbinger: Doxing is when you release someone's personal information for other people to theoretically reach out to them and bully them too.

So this is actually psycho. This is

Gabriel Mizrahi: so scary.

Jordan Harbinger: Mm-hmm.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Now I know the odds of one 10-year-old actually killing another are low, but it's a non-zero chance and I'm not playing around with my kids' life. Agree. My wife and I chose a private Catholic school even though we're not religious. For the smaller classes, safety and academics.

The assumption was that when kids do stupid stuff, the school wouldn't mess around. Spoiler alert, we were wrong. We did everything by the book. First we reached out to Piper's parents who literally told us to play in traffic. Now we know why she's like that. Okay. Then we emailed the principal with screenshots and followed up several times.

Her response, eh, it's summer, nothing I can do. When we met with her in person, she actually told us that if we prayed and put quote unquote good vibes in the world, [00:23:00] our daughter wouldn't get shot. She even blamed my daughter for being threatened because she owns a tablet. The logic being, if you don't get the threats, do they even exist still?

She refused to take a single step to protect her since the school wouldn't act. We went to court and got a protective order. Good. The judge literally said that our daughter's life shouldn't be disrupted. Then word got around. Other parents in our grade even emailed the school the night before saying, basically, WTF, bro, take this seriously.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay, good. So the other parents are not complete idiots like the principal so far.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Good. Then on the very first day of school, the principal called us while we were in the parking lot, ready to drop off our kids and said our daughter couldn't attend because they, quote, didn't know how to handle the protection order.

We argued that legally by court order, there was only one victim, and the other student should be the one sent home on speaker phone. In front of both my kids, she raised her voice and yelled at my wife that there were quote unquote, two victims. Equating my daughter with a girl who threatened to kill her.

Jordan Harbinger: Next time that [00:24:00] kind of thing happens, you call the police and the police go, oh, okay. There's a protective order, and one of the kids is in school where the other kid needs to go to school. That alone should prompt the principal into action. Although she sounds like a complete moron. I'm, I'm angry. We're not even done with the letter Now.

I'm fuming. I hate stuff like this. This principle is a complete idiot. I can't believe what I'm hearing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: As a result, my daughter missed her first two days of fifth grade and was only allowed to return once the other child was gone. Whether she withdrew or was kicked out, we'll never know. I have a guess.

Yeah. What do you think it is?

Jordan Harbinger: I think she got kicked out because the principal was like, how do I handle it? And the lawyers for the school were like, are you kidding? You get rid of the person who's making death threats. Get that other student out of there. Now before we get sued, which I hope is what you're gonna tell me happens next.

Gabriel Mizrahi: We consulted two lawyers because we were so furious, but both told us we were basically SOL. I said I'd happily burn 30 K just to teach the school a lesson, my man. But they explained it would probably cost [00:25:00] closer to a hundred K and still wouldn't amount to much.

Jordan Harbinger: I was gonna say, which market are you in?

'cause 30 K sounds low, but y Yeah. Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I, I get it. We'll likely move her to another school, but for now she's hanging on a little longer just to be with our friends. We love the community. We just can't stomach the school itself. When you've done everything by the book and the people in charge still shrug, how do you make someone like this face the fire?

What would dark Jordan do? Signed Dart Jordan just went. Mm. That was like his Batman kicked in, signed looking for some tips on how to finesse this dipstick after she failed to protect my kid in the Pumped Up kicks. Pumped Up kicks. That's a

Jordan Harbinger: reference to something. I've heard that

Gabriel Mizrahi: before. Yeah. You know that song Pumped Up, kicks by Foster the people.

Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Have you ever paid attention to the lyrics to that song?

Jordan Harbinger: Isn't it Creepy? It's about a school

Gabriel Mizrahi: shooter. Yes. It is such a bop, that song, but it's incredibly dark. Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, it better run. Better Run Faster Than My Bullets or something like that. Exactly. It's kind of gross actually,

Gabriel Mizrahi: now that I [00:26:00] think about it.

I think that song was, if I remember correctly, it was temporarily pulled from the radio after Sandy Hook because it was about a school shooting.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay. Well, wow. Meanwhile, we've all been humming that song in the car for the last 15 years. Cool. So weird. Well pumped up kicks. Indeed. This is, it is ridiculous if this happened at Jaden or Juniper's School, which it never would because they're amazing, but I would lose my shit.

A kid threatens to kill your kid at school and the principal's like, well, it's summer, just prey on it. And then when it continues, she won't do anything about it. And then she gets mad at you like, what in the mental illness is going on here? This person is absolutely just totally brain dead. Look, I don't know if you editorializing a bit, maybe you guys got heated and she got defensive and things escalated and she's just overwhelmed and obviously regardless is super incompetent.

And she's maybe in over her head. I kind of think that's more likely than her being actually malicious, because why would you defend a kid like that? But in this day and age, given the awful things that happen in [00:27:00] schools in America, literally all of the time, this is absolutely not the way to handle a kid who's making explicit violent threats.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Come on. You know, I'm thinking about your interview with Mark Fullman. This is classic pathway to violent stuff, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Mark's whole thing is, and Mark, by the way, he's the author of Trigger Points. He has a super empathetic lens on how to help violent children before they become, you know, school shooters.

He wants to make it so that these kids get noticed. They get some help before anything really awful happens. And his whole thing is that perpetrators plan their attacks over time. They show warning signs, usually plenty of them. Those warning signs create opportunities for intervention.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, this sounds like,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah, if this wasn't an opportunity for the school and these parents to intervene with Piper and figure out why she's threatening another kid for God's sake, I don't know what is.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I mean, there's clearly something wrong with her and at 10 years old, she does deserve help. That was, by the way, mark Mann's interview was episode 1140. If you want to give it a listen, it was a really [00:28:00] interesting one.

Jordan Harbinger: So for the school and these parents to do nothing here, it's just, it's unconscionable.

It is a massive failure of responsibility. Also, like you said, Piper's parents, man, they sound like real pieces of work. I mean, where do I begin? Go play traffic. No wonder their kid is a little budding psycho. I actually hate these people. I'm quite sure they're the true villains in all this. I gotta be honest, dude, if I found out that Jayden, for example, was making death threats to somebody in his class, I would be apologizing profusely in person, sending him straight to therapy five days a week.

Not telling the parents of the other kid to go screw themselves. I can't even believe a Jayden, actually, he bit a kid. And the dad was like, I'm a little annoyed by this. I realize it happens. And we were like, obviously we were super embarrassed. We talked to him about it. He made it right with the kid. We made it right with the parents.

They're friends of ours now and we make jokes about it all the time. Whenever he comes over, I'm like, don't bite anyone. You know, like we really still feel embarrassed about it. And you know, the kid was annoying him or whatever and he bit him and it's like, I understand the [00:29:00] impulse, but you can't do that buddy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm sorry. That's just so funny. Imagine you setting him out the front door, like, have a good day at school buddy. Don't bite anybody. Yeah, no,

Jordan Harbinger: we say it in front of the, don't do it in front of the other kid and his parents and they, we all have a good laugh about it because it's like, I don't, that's adorable.

I don't want people to think like, oh, I can't say anything to Jordan about his precious little kid 'cause he's gonna get upset. Mm-hmm. No, I'm gonna get upset at my kid. Like a normal parent. Mm-hmm. Who wants a functioning human being coming outta their house at some point in time. That's also kind of a

Gabriel Mizrahi: brilliant strategy though, 'cause you're kind of inviting it.

I am into the atmosphere. Like you're like, we can all talk about this and joke about this, but also this is wrong. Yeah, I like that.

Jordan Harbinger: Right, exactly. Exactly. Like it's not funny but it's in the past. But also like we acknowledge that we were the, you know, wrong here and he's been punished for it and then he made your kid feel better like they're friends now.

It's fine. Kids are over this crap immediately. It's the parents who are like. That's the kid that bit my kid. So I try to make it like, you know, as smooth as possible. Anyway, I'm so very sorry that this happened to your daughter. I'm sorry. It created so much stress and conflict for you guys. [00:30:00] I'm sorry for everyone at this school that they're not being better protected because your daughter's being bullied by Piper.

Now, is she the only one? Probably not. Is she the only one that's ever gonna happen to also, probably not. So I understand that you wanna hold this principle accountable for this, and I get it. I'm also hearing that this school might have kind of sort of done the right thing in the end because Piper is gone.

I'm not personally satisfied with that though.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm gonna be honest. I know you're not either. No, clearly not. And also two school days in a whole summer. Too late. Yeah. And they're lucky. Nothing bad happened, but yeah, it, it did in its own way get resolved. That's true.

Jordan Harbinger: Okay, so I'm gonna try to be somewhat charitable here.

Yeah, let's hear you be Gabe and I'll be Jordan, go ahead. Yeah, exactly. I'll be Gabe and, but I'm switching back to Jordan soon. Yeah, I can see that. You're just cosplaying as me for a second. Go on. That's right, that's right. This is a Catholic school. It sounds pretty safe. It's pretty wholesome. Like I said, this principal might have been in overhead.

The administration doesn't know how to handle a protective order or intervene when a student makes threats. They could have handled this way better for sure. They [00:31:00] might have just been confused. I guess I'd wanna know if they really did Expel Piper or if Piper withdrew before deciding whether to go full dark Jordan here, although, I don't know, do I care they did the right thing in the end that counts for something fine, but they should have done it beforehand.

And also the problem isn't necessarily solved 'cause this principle is still in place. I don't know, regardless of whether they expelled her or not. How's that? If you feel the need to make this principle pay, which is, can you guess where I would fall on this?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Why don't you narrate your conflict and then arrive at the conclusion that you knew you were gonna arrive at the whole time?

Exactly. It's delightful and thank you for this ride.

Jordan Harbinger: I would probably write an open letter to the principal, the administration, the board of trustees, whoever the higher ups at the school are. In this letter, I would detail everything that happened. I would include separate documentation of all the texts, all the posts.

I would specifically state, all the ways this principal fumbled the crisis, failed to protect your children, what you wanna see happen, which is basically having her removed. And then I would invite all of the parents of the kids in your daughter's class, maybe even all [00:32:00] of the classes to sign it. That is something the school can absolutely not ignore.

You could also try to escalate this through the PTA or something. Some schools, the PTA has a ton of pull. Sometimes they're kind of just doing like a yogurt waffle thing. If teacher appreciation day or whatever, maybe that's the right venue to start this conversation and raise awareness if they actually have, you know, some clout.

Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So question and don't bite my head off, uh, Jayden's style for asking this. I know, I think I know what your answer's gonna be, but. Is the right approach to just get this principal fired for what happened? Or is it to help her and the school see that they are really ill-equipped to deal with threats like this and maybe help them do better in the future?

Jordan Harbinger: Uh, is there a third option where she goes to prison? Um, okay, these are the options. So Dart Jordan wants to say, absolutely fire this woman. She fumbled this so hard. She is just lucky. I mean, by the grace. Speaking of prayers, by the grace of God, she's lucky a kid didn't get murdered in the hallway.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But like you said, I have a hard time believing that that's what the principal wants [00:33:00] to see happen.

I think she's just probably naive and incompetent and a total mess.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay, so the Valdi cops. Did they want the kids to die? Or were they just a bunch of wimps that didn't know what they were doing? Okay. I don't care. The reason she should not be in the role, if that's how she's gonna handle a potential school shooter.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Good point. I hear that. But with the right approach, does the school deserve a second chance? Could they learn how to take incidents like this? Seriously? Could these parents help the school develop a protocol for handling threats like this in the future? Can they be made to see that preying on it and putting out good vibes is not a strategy for preventing violence Maybe.

And isn't that really the best outcome?

Jordan Harbinger: My brother in Christ? Thoughts and prayers come after kids are senselessly murdered, not beforehand. Brutal take, but so true.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: I understand what you're getting at. But this principle hasn't apologized to them. She doesn't even seem to have taken any steps to start a dialogue with these parents.

Figure out how to handle this stuff better in the future. I'm sorry, this woman, the most charitable [00:34:00] interpretation that crosses my mind is that she is in fact a total fricking idiot. That is the best thing I can say about her at this point. If this had gone a different way, and thank goodness it didn't, but if this had turned into a sandy hook or a Waldi situation or whatever, the media would've had a field day with this principles.

Quotes about praying it outweigh and putting out good vibes. The school would be sued into oblivion. They would be melting down the copper piping in that place to pay the settlement after the lawyers were done with them and rightfully so. And this principle could even be held criminally liable for not doing anything.

Come on, man, that you know about this stuff, right? This did

Gabriel Mizrahi: happen at Valdi, didn't it? Yeah. Some of those people, I think the officer involved was criminally in charge. Sure. Okay. So he was

Jordan Harbinger: a cop. But the teachers and counselors, it's called a mandated reporter. You know about this?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Actually, I was just about to say, now that I think about how did this principal not report this to the authorities immediately?

Right. She's a mandated reporter. She's supposed to do that. Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: exactly. She did nothing worse than nothing. Honestly, this [00:35:00] is why I have no sympathy for her at all, or any of the other administrators who might have been aware of this and we're just like. There's nothing for us to do here. Summer months, I'm off to, you know, whatever,

Gabriel Mizrahi: Vegas.

But I would still say that even if this principal does get fired, the school still needs somebody to help them develop a protocol and teach them some things about how to handle violence. 'cause they're clearly in over their heads.

Jordan Harbinger: No, a hundred percent. I agree. So on that note, here's another idea to get her out there.

You talk to some journalists at local newspapers, a reporter at a local TV channel. You can email them, you can find them on social media. You share a version of that letter I just pitched with all that documentation. You can put it in Dropbox, Google Drive, everything will be in one place. You ask if they'd be interested in doing a story on failures to protect children from violence in schools, or how some private schools don't take this stuff seriously.

If an article or news segment came out with your story. This is gonna be very bad for that principle. And if you need help reaching out to those reporters, those journalists, you gotta find 'em. But I know sometimes journalists respond more quickly to me [00:36:00] because I got a blue check mark next to my name on Instagram.

It's very useless most of the time. As you see, I don't even post on there. I just post funny signs that I see on my stories. But yeah, I'm happy to leverage that to reach out on your behalf. If you show me who is local to you, dark Jordan would be honored to bring this to light. I just spoke in the third person.

That's a little cringey, but whatever. I have a rock hard justice boner right now. Listen, in the meantime, gross paint is so graphic, but it's true. In the meantime, you're,

Gabriel Mizrahi: you're pitching a justice tent over there. I can see it through the computer.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. In the meantime, keep an eye on your daughter, you know, make sure she's not still being targeted online by somebody else.

Come up with a safety plan. If she ever runs into piper at the mall, don't hesitate to call the police. If this girl ever threatens her again, you've got a protective order. Keep that in place for a while. Utilize that thing. I am. So sorry this happened. It is awful. There are some very troubled kids out there.

I really do hope that this Piper gal, this little girl, grows out of it, but it's not looking good. Who knows? I hope this principle character that she needs to [00:37:00] get canned. She needs to find a job where she is not responsible for kids' lives. In fact, I don't know how much responsibility somebody like that can handle.

Her judgment is terrible. You gotta protect yourself when people in positions of authority clearly don't. You're doing a great job protecting your kids so far. Keep those pumped up kicks squeaky clean. Good luck. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines.

That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're spiraling out during a job search your sister's ditching her child to go party with her mooching outlaw motorcycle club boyfriend or your daughters were literally sex trafficked by their school principal. Gabe, man, we've had some abs. Two absolutely atrocious school principal stories a couple weeks in a row.

What is going on, man? Whatever's got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, our newsletter, which is a much cheerier subject matter, generally speaking, the feedback Friday least recently, it's called Wee bit Wiser.

It's a bite-sized gem from a past [00:38:00] episode from me to you, delivered straight to your inbox every Wednesday. If you wanna keep up with the visum from our 1000 plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. You can sign up at Jordan harbinger.com/news. All right, next up.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi Jordan and Gabe.

I entered the visual effects industry in my late twenties as a 2D compositor in the uk. I rose through the ranks quickly, often putting in extra hours during the pandemic. I picked up 3D simulation skills, explosions, water particle effects, and managed to transition into that department working on blockbuster films and series.

Everything was going great until the actors and writer strikes hit studios collapsed. Departments shut down. I was lucky to fall back on my 2D compositing skills, but now I feel stuck. I was pushing forward with my new skills, but the industry has shrunk so much that studios mostly want senior artists or short-term contractors.

I can't afford that instability as I'm [00:39:00] about to have a baby, which limits the risks I can take. On top of that, AI is already reshaping the field, and the company I'm with is heavily investing in it. That worries me how long before they no longer need me.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Scary question, but an important question.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's interesting. I was just catching up with a friend of mine yesterday who works as a colorist in la. Oh yeah. So that's the person who like does the color correction. Super talented. He's going through the exact same thing. Loves what he does, loves the industry. Not sure if he can actually hang on and survive at his level.

It sucks.

Jordan Harbinger: That seems like something AI could really do is color correct and things like that. I mean, I have all these photos and videos of my kids and events and stuff that I took on my Sony camera and I, I leave it in like the log format, that sort of raw format. And my friends are like, oh, when are you gonna retouch those?

And I'm like, literally never. I'm just gonna wait until AI is like, you know, we'll charge you per gigabyte, upload everything, and we'll color grade it for you in seconds. And it's like, you know, 1 cent per photo.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So it's interesting, [00:40:00] he actually had a different take on ai. Like he wasn't as concerned about it.

His stresses seem to be, maybe we'll get into this in the letter, but he was much more worried about other forces in the industry than ai. I see. Which is interesting. Interesting. But yeah, it is sad. It is what's happening to so many people in Hollywood right now. It's a real crisis and I guess it's happening in the UK too.

The whole industry is just going through it. So he goes on, I'm starting to think my time in this industry is limited. I'm ready to work hard, grow and try something new at the same time, I'm desperate to find meaning in what I do and to provide for my family. What should I do next? Do you have any advice or know of any groups or professionals who can truly help with career transitions signed?

Using my brain to simulate this treacherous terrain. But ready to retrain so I can find a new lane.

Jordan Harbinger: Well, first of all, really sorry that this industry you've invested so much into is changing. That must be so hard to watch. I know it's happening to so many fields where it, it will soon one way or another, but I hear it's happening, especially in the post-production world, [00:41:00] and that is just, that's brutal.

Between AI and the strikes and the shifting economics of the industry and a baby on the way, it's a lot of change, a lot of different variables to factor in, and I'm just sorry that it's causing so much stress and uncertainty. That said, I really appreciate your mindset here. And a lot of people in your shoes, they are either burying their head in the sand and waiting for the worst, and maybe they're doubling down when it comes to ai, or they're fleeing to other fields without really maybe thinking it through.

You're open to trying something new, working hard, but you wanna do it with intention, and I think that's gonna serve you very well. So. I can't tell you exactly what to do next. I can only offer some general principles, a bigger process to step into. So first off, I would separate your skills and talents from your industry.

You have an amazing skillset that must be relevant in other fields. There are the technical ones, compositing 3D, simulation, post-production stuff, but there are also broader ones. Problem solving, attention to detail, collaborating with people under ambitious deadlines, finding creative solutions, [00:42:00] learning new skills quickly.

All of those are transferable, but in some ways the second set is even more useful. 'cause that's what'll allow you to talk to somebody at, say, an advertising agency or an in-house marketing department. Or a tech company that's creating VFX software and you can go, okay, I've never used XY, Z software before.

I'm new to a b, C industry, but I know how to tell a great story. I know how to execute a client's vision. I know how to manage people and projects and achieve a deadline. Give me six weeks to master this software and I can bring everything I've learned in the VFX world to your company.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Totally. I really like that pitch, by the way.

I just read that Google hired a filmmaker to help it build its generative AI tool. I think it's called Flow. And this person is gonna help Google, bring it to the creative community. So that is exactly the kind of pivot our friend here could be exploring, like an adjacency that requires his old talents.

Jordan Harbinger: There you go. That overlap between tech and creative. That's a good place for him to look. If you can tell that story and mean it, which I have a strong feeling, you can. The [00:43:00] range of options available to you just gets a lot bigger. You're not just a visual effects technician, you're a storyteller. You're not just a post-production person, you're a creative manager.

The other thing you need to start doing is talking to people. You know this, you've heard me say this a hundred times, probably more won't belabor the point. Do the six minute networking stuff over@sixminutenetworking.com. It's perfect for transitions like this. It's literally designed for that. Start booking casual chats with people in your field, in your role, in other fields that you're curious about.

Just ask how they're managing all of this change. Don't think of it as networking. Don't think of it as interviewing. Just think of it as finding your people and trying to learn from them. Create a connection. Keep investing in it. Let those relationships take good care of you. These chats are gonna give you the information you need and they're gonna expose you to new ideas.

And yeah, if you do this enough, they will open doors to jobs eventually. Another idea, maybe you start a WhatsApp group or a Facebook group or a weekly Zoom call with other people in your field who are navigating these same [00:44:00] questions and you become the hub.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh, cool story. By the way, a couple listeners of ours totally unrelated to each other, they were recently part of big layoffs at their companies, and they both started a weekly zoom call with everyone they knew who was laid off.

And these people started sharing job postings and reading each other's resumes and giving each other's tips and stuff like that. And just generally supporting everyone through this tough time. And it was amazing. Almost every single person in those groups found jobs within a couple of months. And the whole group, both groups are still super close in helping one another.

I just heard from one of them and she told me that. So I'm a big fan of this idea.

Jordan Harbinger: I love that idea.

Gabriel Mizrahi: As for the AI piece, I think the writing is on the wall. You're already seeing the effects, but like I said, when we were reading the letter, that colorist friend I mentioned. He said that people in his field are not necessarily losing work to ai, at least not yet.

He said ai, motion tracking tools are actually just making his job way easier. He said the real struggle is the economics of the industry, the number of shows that are being made these days, offshoring [00:45:00] post-production work, overseas tax incentives, all of that. These huge things that individual employees, or even honestly production companies as a whole can't really influence alone.

So AI does not necessarily mean that your field or your role is done for. It's probably true that the people who are gonna succeed in this next era are the ones who are going to learn how to like steer AI and use it most effectively and be the bridge between the humans and the tech. So I'm curious to know if there's a way to position yourself as that person, but I also recognize that that's probably easier said than done.

Just something to think about so you don't panic too soon.

Jordan Harbinger: There's also a world where you keep one foot in this world and the other in another industry. Maybe explore what a portfolio career might look like. A mix of freelance VFX gigs, some consulting gigs, something like that. That might not give you the stability you're craving, but it might give you flexibility, runway, time to explore other options.

Maybe those are even more valuable while you figure this out.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Good idea. As for finding meaning, I would think about the parts of the job that really light you up and then see how you can [00:46:00] chase those aspects of the job or find them in other fields. It might also mean looking for work and other niches, like maybe you do freelance VFX for indie films that you're really passionate about, or, not that there's a ton of money in indie films these days, but you know, there are those gigs and maybe they're more meaningful.

Or you look into jobs in the educational world, like educational games or immersive media and not just the next, you know, Harry Potter sequel or whatever. Not that that work isn't exciting, but just as an example. We're also gonna link to a bunch of episodes we did about finding meaning and sticking with your purpose when it gets hard, and we're gonna link to a bunch of groups that sound really helpful for people making a career change.

Creative UK is one of them. Creative heads is another. You can find all of those in the show notes.

Jordan Harbinger: I would also spend time in the VFX subreddits, the entertainment industry subreddits, the filmmaking subreddits. See what people are talking about. Maybe post your question there. See what advice you get. DM the people who seem especially friendly and smart.

Chime in on other people's threads. It's a [00:47:00] great way to meet people and broaden your horizons. But listen, this is gonna be a process you'll have to navigate on your own. It's a path you'll have to forage yourself as you should. So I love that you're reaching out and asking for help. I think it's great, but also I wouldn't look to any person or organization to hand you a blueprint here.

Beware anyone, especially career coaches who claim that they can. This is for you to figure out by playing, exploring, connecting, which is part of the joy. If you do that, if you apply your awesome work ethic and curiosity to this decision, I promise you, the way forward will reveal itself eventually. And congrats on the baby.

You've got this, man. Good luck. You know what? AI will never destroy the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Mint Mobile. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no.

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Now, back to feedback Friday. Of course it's time for the recommendation of the week. My recommendation of the week is a home blood pressure cuff. Often my telehealth doctors are also like, Hey, can you take your blood pressure for me? It's only a snapshot in time. Oh, it's not because I take it every single day with my home blood pressure cuff using one of these things.

Actually, I've had it for years and years and years, maybe 10 years or something, with the one I have now. This was my first warning sign a few years ago, or several years ago, that I needed to lose weight. Well, other than looking in the freaking mirror, uh, it was the first warning sign that I was unhealthy.

I could just no longer deny the truth and believe my own bullshit, like, oh, I only loosen my belt a little bit, or These clothes don't fit anymore, but whatever. Once I saw my blood pressure go up, and I was like, okay, this is organ stress, heart stress, it was just the wake up call I needed to really get on top of this.

I reversed all of those unhealthy trends, every single one. I'm a big fan of the, I think it's called We Things, or Withings. It looks like [00:52:00] Withings, but I think it's WE things, Y things, whatever BPM Connect is the name. We'll link it in the show notes. It's small. It can do a zillion reads on one charge. I literally charge it twice a year or something like that.

It's not expensive. It's under 200, but I think it's like $129. We're gonna link to it in the show notes. Take your blood pressure a few times a week. You'll stay on top of those measurements. You don't have to worry about the measurement at the doctor being high, if it's normal at your house every day.

It's really gonna help you get ahead of things. And also, if you're one of those people who's like, I'm fine, probably having high blood pressure will kill you early. It will, don't bury your head in the sand anymore. Get one of these things and get that stuff managed. Doesn't have to be expensive. Again, we'll link to it in the show notes and good luck.

Hopefully you're all normal. Oh, and it can have like your whole family memorized in there, so different people. It'll track the metrics in an app, so you can have your spouse do it, you can have your parents do it. You can have your kids do it, and it will save all of that in an app online forever. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for the show.

I've mentioned [00:53:00] Reddit a few times before. Lot of discussions going on in there. Episodes you liked, episodes you didn't like criticism, funny conversations, jump on in to the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. All right, last

Gabriel Mizrahi: but not least. Hey guys. I've been listening to the show for years now, and I always enjoy hearing how you guys spend your free time, what you get up to when you unwind, what kind of hobbies you're into, et cetera.

For example, it makes me smile when I imagine Jordan enjoying some tasty tea in the infidelity subreddit while he's out rocking in his neighborhood listening to a CDC. Or picturing Gabe sipping some yogi tea during a handstand workshop before hitting the bead shop on his way home to Veganize and Lange recipes.

Jordan Harbinger: That was eerily accurate. And by the way, it's not an infidelity subreddit, it's a, the subreddits about, am I overreacting? It's just the ones that are juicy always happen to involve infidelity somehow 'cause people be whiling out.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Also, I wouldn't call beads one of my hobbies per se, but you nailed the fit.

Okay, so there's that. One thing I haven't heard you talk about [00:54:00] is drinking. I don't know if you guys are sober or don't drink much or love to Taiwan on, but just don't talk about it. So do you drink, what's your stance on alcohol? No judgment. Just wanna know what role the giggle juice plays in your lives.

I'm thinking about taking a break from it. So it would be nice to hear how Uncle Jordan and hippie Grandpa Gabe feel about it. Sign looking for the goss on how you feel about the sauce.

Jordan Harbinger: So I used to drink way too much. I always knew it was social pressure. The truth is I almost never really enjoyed it, especially after a certain point.

I always felt like I acted pretty stupid while drinking. And then the hangovers were obviously always really bad when you have 10 drinks. I finally got to a point where they were just horrendous. And then I met Jen who doesn't drink. And so in my early thirties, I basically went from having a couple of drinks, probably per day, on average on most days anyway, to having a couple of drinks per year.

I mean, I don't judge people for drinking. I think for some people, especially younger people, the social benefits can be good. [00:55:00] I'm thinking about Scott Galloway's argument that young people, they need to drink more Now he's being a little hyperbolic and provocative when he says that. I think his real point is they need to leave the house and meet one another, and he's right and he has a point.

Yeah, yeah. But ongoing use of it, especially later in life, is almost always bad news. And look, if you drink in moderation, fine. But it's still a vice man. You can't delude yourself into thinking that it's good for you slash harmless or whatever. Just accept the fact that it's like smoking an occasional cigar.

I don't do that, but look, if you smoke an occasional cigar, probably won't kill you. But it's not doing you any favors. Gabe, I know you, you hardly drink at all. What's your take on this?

Gabriel Mizrahi: So I was never a huge drinker, but when I was young, like when I started my first job after college, so say 21 to 25, I probably drank every other weekend, a couple drinks, go out, have fun, you know.

But over the years, for me too, it's gone down and down and down. And now I basically never drank. I might have a beer or some sake, [00:56:00] I don't know, once or twice a year now, I would say on a special occasion. And I, I almost always regret it. Afterward, I'm like, oh, I didn't need to do that. First of all, it hits me really hard.

You noticed in Portugal, like I be, we had one drink, I think when we went out and I was like, no more for me. I just can't. I can't do it. It hits me so hard. I get tired, I get quiet, which I'm already kind of quiet, so it gets weird, weird. Gabe comes out, I wake up in the middle of the night. I can't sleep through the night.

If I have a drink, I have that. I feel sluggish and I feel kind of anxious the next day. I would just rather have my mornings and feel good for the rest of the day. That is way better to me than a couple hours of fun, which is rarely ever that fun. So that's where I am.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, same. It look, it's called Getting Older, by the way.

Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also had a moment maybe eight or 10 years ago where I was like, Hmm, why do I drink? Like why is this stuff so appealing sometimes, and obviously it's because it depresses our nervous systems, right? It quiets our minds and it makes us less self-conscious and less anxious for most people [00:57:00] anyway.

Some people get aggressive or whatever, but, and it's a social lubricant. It just makes it easier to deal, I think, with our fear of other people, which we all have to some degree. I happen to have it fairly mildly, but it's still there and it also just makes it easier to deal with other people who can be kind of weird and annoying sometimes.

So I don't know. Something about that started to bother me. I was like, well, if I need a drink to be able to deal with this room full of people, this is either not the right room for me, or I need to work on this part of me that feels anxious or uncomfortable when I go into a party.

Jordan Harbinger: Same. I was using alcohol to mask social issues when I really needed to attack those social issues a hundred percent.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Interesting. And what were those social issues would you say?

Jordan Harbinger: You know, like, oh, I'm gonna approach a bunch of women tonight, and the rejection is part of it, so I don't want that to sting as much. I wanna not care, so I'm gonna have a few drinks. Or later on, once I got really used to that, it would be like, well, I'm at work right now with a bunch of guys and so in order to make the time go by [00:58:00] faster, I'm gonna have a few drinks while I do this.

Or like, oh, I need to be entertaining and not tired, so I might as well have a few drinks while I do this. You know? Then it was just like, okay. Um, every night that I'm working, which is most nights, on most weeks, I'm having drinks. And then when it's my off time, I'm like, well, I wanna relax, have a couple drinks.

I mean, it was just, there was a always a reason to do it. That's exactly

Gabriel Mizrahi: it. So shame, boredom, awkwardness, right? Yeah. Like these are all the things, and once you really sit with the things that alcohol is helping you cope with, it gets harder to keep doing it. And so, yeah, I just started going places sober and whenever I would feel self-conscious or awkward or embarrassed or bored or whatever the feeling was, I would go, okay, interesting.

What is that about? You know, what about these people is intimidating? Or, you know, can I still talk to them anyway? You know, why am I self-censoring in this conversation or. If I'm really bored at this party. Okay, do you wanna make this party more interesting or do you just wanna go home and do something more fun?

'cause that's an option too.

Jordan Harbinger: Make another bead cuff while your Lange carrots, tenderize. I don't know. [00:59:00]

Gabriel Mizrahi: I enjoyed hearing that roast download. Yes, as you were saying, it was like buffering, buffering. It's like 80% and then a hundred percent. Exactly. So spinning beach ball. But both of those things sound so much better than going somewhere and drinking.

And yeah, I just started working on those things more and that was a lot more gratifying. And then also, by the way, when you live in LA, you get to drive home without worrying about being pulled over, which is so stressful. And you get a good night of sleep. And then I could wake up and go do yoga without feeling like I wanted to die and get a ton of work done the next day.

Not drinking really simplified my life in a lot of ways. I prefer it

Jordan Harbinger: in a way. It's kind of beautiful. There's this thing that helps us get over ourselves for a little while, have a left de-stress, and that's why I'm not one of those alcohol is of the devil kind of people. Obviously it can ruin your life if you let it take over, but that's true of pretty much every substance.

Or if you lose control and you say the wrong thing, like the boss from question one, fine, okay, that's not good, so you gotta be careful, but I'm with you. The older I get the less interesting it is and the happier I am to, you [01:00:00] know, raw dog life. You know, I'll totally have a, an old fashioned at a party or when we went to the vineyard in Portugal, I had a couple glasses of port crack jokes with my cousin.

It's fun. It's not the definition of fun for me, but yeah, it's fun.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. And on the right occasion when you're celebrating something or when you're with the right people, it can be really fun. I don't know if alcohol is really my drug.

Jordan Harbinger: No, I've learned that your drug is more weapons grade matcha powder from Kyoto, did you say?

From Kyoto? Yeah. I don't know whether to make matcha butter. The

Gabriel Mizrahi: Kyoto weapons grade matcha just hits, yeah. Snort that in the bathroom. And you are, you are good.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Little matcha bump. You tap it out in your tiny little matcha, little on your necklace. Exactly. So you wrote in about this because you're thinking about taking a break from alcohol.

I don't know your reasons for doing that or what your relationship with alcohol has been like, but I'll just say, take that break, see what happens. See if you feel better. See if you feel worse. The same. See if other parts of your life change. See if going places sober puts you in touch with certain aspects of yourself, helps you see yourself more clearly, and then decide if your life is better or worse.

Without alcohol only, you [01:01:00] can answer that, but I do think there's a reason so many people are ditching alcohol these days also. Damn it has so many calories. Even if you don't put a mixer in there, it has so many calories. It's basically a sugar, right? So it's not great for your body in general, from what I gather.

I mean, on some level it is literally poison plus sugar and god knows what else.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's the other thing, man. It's really not good for you. But our culture doesn't seem to really want to talk about that is just so normalized. It's such a part of our history. And also depending on how conspiratorial you want to get, I mean, you could argue that the government kind of wants to low-key, promote alcohol consumption, be, I'll let you figure out the reason.

As opposed to other substances, they deem too dangerous, you know? So I don't know. It's interesting. I took a diet in exercise class in college with this doctor who was also a bodybuilder. And I remember this dude yelling from the podium, alcohol is a carcinogen. There is no doubt about it. And the older you get, the harder it is for your body to fight cancer.

And he made us read the studies and I was like, damn, okay, I gotta keep an eye on this, but [01:02:00] mm-hmm. Yeah, you don't really hear people talking about alcohol causing cancer. You hear about cigarette. You hear about not exercising more and more, you even hear about sitting, you don't hear about alcohol. And then in January of this year, I don't know if you saw this, Jordan, the Surgeon General came out with a new report on alcohol and cancer risk, which if you haven't read it, I highly recommend reading it.

And the findings were disturbing. And it said among other things that alcohol is the third leading preventable cause of cancer in the US behind tobacco, behind obesity. It's linked to nearly a hundred thousand new cancer cases and about 20,000 cancer deaths annually. It said that it raises the risk of at least seven different types of cancer, and that even low or moderate alcohol consumption carries significant risk.

And certain cancers, especially breast, mouth and throat, interestingly yes, can be triggered with one drink per day or less. Wow. And it also, by the way, explains the main ways that alcohol actually leads to cancer, which is pretty fascinating.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Okay. That, well, that's terrifying. Mouth and throat. One drink per [01:03:00] day or less.

That's not a lot. It's insane.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude. Read this report. It's from the US Surgeon General. It's been covered by tons of newspapers now. I think it was in the New York Times, and then a ton of people read it and we're like, oh, okay. This is real.

Jordan Harbinger: I think I'm just impressed that we still have a Surgeon General.

We also have a Postmaster general

Gabriel Mizrahi: too. Just FYI.

Jordan Harbinger: It's funny, I, I only know that that position exists because of the movie Air Force One with Harrison Ford. If you know, you know, I don't know. Is there, is there like a scene where they talk about that the people on the plane are like going over their cabinet positions or something?

They're like, what are you doing here? And she's like, I'm the postmaster general. And it's like this, you know, sassy middle aged woman and she's like, oh I see, you know, I'm not taking any of this. It's just funny. And people are like the postma. And even in the movie though, like the postmaster general, like other people are like postmaster general.

That's a thing.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Well I don't know how we got from alcohol and cancer to postmaster general to nineties movies.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, it's great actually. I love those nineties auction movies. There's nothing else like them. Golden age anyway. Look, there are obviously people who drink and never get cancer. There are so many variables at play.

Most people in [01:04:00] this country, anywhere, I should say in the States, 'cause I'm in Germany, most people don't exercise enough, don't eat well, they're overstressed. You know, there's so many things going on. So I understand that this is complex and I am obviously not a doctor, but the data is getting clearer and clearer and that's also a good reason for me to stay away.

It's just, you know, one more thing to not have to worry about.

Jordan Harbinger: I hear that that's pretty, uh, sobering. Pardon the pun Anyway, I'm sure I speak for Gabe as well. When I say we're not trying to moralize here, I have no ethical problems with people who enjoy alcohol responsibly. If you can't, that's a different problem.

But I do agree that life is just, it's a lot easier when you don't drink, even though it can be also, well, it can be pretty fun sometimes when you do. Just speaking for myself. I don't know if I've ever enjoyed a night of drinking more than a great workout and a productive day or a day without a splitting headache and anxiety or a future where I don't have colorectal cancer.

That's just where I'm at with it, but I am not a hundred percent sober either. How else do you guys think? I get through feedback Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You're, are you drinking? You're not. No, I don't think [01:05:00] so. I'm getting crunched on this fennel tea right now. All these polyphenols are going straight to my head, but that's about it.

You fied.

Jordan Harbinger: You have a problem, dude. We're gonna have to get you some help. Anyway, thanks for letting us soapbox about this. Good luck with your sabbatical from the sauce, and let us know how it goes. Shout notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, searchable and clickable at Jordan harbinger.com/deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Instagram, Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

Consult a professional before implementing anything you hear on the show, especially if it has to do with your health and wellness. Remember, we've rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you [01:06:00] next time. Ever find yourself trapped in a cycle of always wanting more and never feeling content? You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show, where scarcity brain, author Michael Easter, unravels the mysteries of our primal drives and how they can be both our downfall and our

JHS Clip: salvation.

I'm a investigative journalist, but I firmly believe that to understand a story, to understand all the mechanics of it, to get the information that you need to really tell a story, you have to go in person. Sometimes I get to go to the nice shiny, comfortable labs where they bring me coffee and it's, you know, at Harvard or whatever.

But some days you find yourself in Iraq in a prison looking at cells of drug dealers and terrorists. But ultimately, I think that going there makes you get a better story, makes a story more interesting, and gets you better information to really understand it. Everyone knows that everything is fine in moderation, so then the question is.

Why do we all suck so bad at it? People keep eating when they're full. We often find ourselves shopping when we already own a ton of stuff. We scroll through social media or keep binging news when we know it's not necessarily [01:07:00] improving our mental health. When you think about how humans evolved, everything we needed to survive in the past, it was all scarce and it was all hard to find, right?

So everything from food to possessions to information, even influence and status, the number of people we could influence, all hard to find, all scarce. And we lived like that for basically two and a half million years. And it wasn't until very recently in the grand scheme of time that we started to get abundance of all these things that were sort of built to crave.

So in the past, it always made sense to eat more food than you needed. If you had the opportunity to hoard items, to try and get as much information as you can, just keep seeking information, all that would give you a survival advantage. And then our environment's flipped and now we have an abundance of all this stuff and still compelled to just consume and consume all the stuff.

Jordan Harbinger: For more about our insatiable desires and how to harness them for good. Tune into episode 902.