385: Can I Date a White-Collar Criminal? | Feedback Friday

Transcript for Can I Date a White-Collar Criminal? | Feedback Friday (Episode 385)

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. Today, I'm here with Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people, and we turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. I want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. So you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening around you and even in your own brain.

[00:00:32] If you're new to the show on Fridays, we give advice to you and answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. For a selection of featured episodes to get you started with some of our favorite guests and popular topics, go to jordanharbinger.com and we'll hook you up. This week on the show we had Aimen Dean. This is a two-part episode. Gabriel, this guy was the top bomb and poison-maker for Al-Qaeda. And now he works in counter-terror and intelligence and like traces terrorist finance. Fascinating. This guy's a genius. I'm just glad he's on our side now because he wasn't before. So it was super scary. This guy is brilliant. Aimen Dean, two parts. It took us like six hours, legit, five and a half hours to record this episode and then chop it down to like a two-part bonkers. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:01:25] That's incredible. How did you find your way to him? 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:26] So somebody emailed me and was like, "Hey, there's this new podcast called Conflicted, which is a great show. And that Aimen Dean co-hosts it with another guy who's a former monk. And they talk about everything from world affairs to religion because they were both — obviously he was an Islamic extremist and the other guy was a monk so he was a Christian, but he was not a violent extremist, you know? So it's like a very interesting dichotomy between these two friends.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:01:53] I cannot wait to hear this one.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:01:54] Yeah. They're great. And so I thought, well, wait a minute, I want to find out more about the host of the show. So I've researched this guy and read his book and the publicist was like, "No, no, no, you're good. You don't have to read this whole book. You can just listen to his new thing that I'm promoting." I was like, "No, no, no, no. I want to get the whole thing. So anyway, two-part with Aimen Dean, a hell of an interesting conversation.

[00:02:12] I also write every so often on the blog, the latest post, finally, we got a good post up recently here. It's been a few months, I think, Gabriel, because you were all fancy making movies.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:02:22] You and I both have been a little busy but, yeah, we got down and we wrote a new one and I love this one. This is a great one. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:27] So how did this come about? Somebody wrote in on Feedback Friday and was saying, "How do I get my—" I don't know what it is, her brother that was always falling for scams. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:02:36] Yeah, a few weeks back, we got a letter from a listener whose brother had fallen from multiple multilevel marketing schemes I think.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:42] And like foreign currency trading BS and all that stuff.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:02:46] It was a little bit obscure and a little bit shady. Actually, it was super shady. And she asked interesting questions. She was like, "In addition to, how do I help my brother? She was like, "Is currency exchange legit as like a business, as an MLM. Is it something that I could actually get on board with?" And you were like — you said something very insightful. You said, "You're asking the wrong question. The question isn't the MLM legit? The question is, what about your brother made him fall for it?"

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:11] Yeah, she wanted to pick apart this type of scam. Like, tell me maybe where the flaws are in this particular company is Forex scam. And I'm like, "You could have every bit of evidence against this particular company. Your brother is the type of person who wants to fall for this." And so we did a whole piece on the type of person that falls for scams, where your vulnerabilities are, how to tell if you are that person, and what to do. If you know somebody who is that person. And I guarantee you, those of you who've been writing in to us about a family member or friend that is getting duped by these MLMs or these scams, you're going to see the victim checklist in there. It doesn't mean they have everything, but you're going to see a portrait, your friend, or of your past self, who you were when you were in the middle of the scam. You're going to see that. I illustrated and outlined pretty explicitly. We worked hard on this one. So that one is at jordanharbinger.com/articles.

[00:03:59] Hopefully, you checkout Aimen Dean and Who Falls For Scams, even if you're not scam adjacent and you like psychology, I think you'll find this interesting. You can reach us on friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise, add a descriptive subject line that makes our job so much easier than if every subject line is Feedback Friday. I was looking at some show notes for BJ Fogg and James Clear earlier. And I saw this and I just can't remember which episode this was in. But every action you take is a vote for the type of person you wish to become. No single instance will transform from your beliefs, but as the votes build-up, so does the evidence of your identity. This is why habits are crucial. They cast repeated votes for being a certain type of person. I thought this was brilliant. This is something I'm keeping in mind all this week. That's from either one or both of those habits, episodes, BJ Fogg or James Clear. Both are good episodes. If you're interested in habit change, it's episode 108 for James clear and 306 for BJ Fogg. We'll link them in the show notes.

[00:05:00] As always, we got some great questions. Gabriel, what's the first thing out of the mailbag? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:05:03] Hey Jordan, I just googled the guy I met on a dating app and it turns out he's been convicted of intellectual property theft from his employer or something akin to it. From the verdict, it appears he was on probation, which has now ended. Assuming that this person has learned from his mistake and recognized the ills of his greed and misjudgment, is it worth getting to know this person or should I back off and protect myself while I can? Signed, Feeling Out of Felon. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:30] This is a tough one, man. I mean, there's a part of me that's like, "No, because there are so many fish in the sea." But then, there's another part of me, that's like, "Ooh, what if I was that person? Would I want a second chance? Is it fair?" I don't know. I mean, it's a question about values. It's a question about the writer's values and his values. So do you think people deserve a second chance? Do they deserve a shot at a normal life after a conviction? Does this person seem to have changed as a person? Do you feel that this is a crime or mistake that defines him? Or is it a chapter of his life that he's appropriately resolved and made amends for?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:06:05] Yes. Those are great questions. That's exactly right. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:08] I talked to him directly about it because that's the only way you're really going to feel this out. Right, Gabe? Like you have to talk directly with the person. And it's an interesting test. Say you google him, you saw the conviction. You want to hear the story and understand what happened without judgment, and let him tell you what went down and whether he's changed. His response is really going to tell you almost everything you need to know about who this person is now. I'm thinking, Gabriel, a lot of people might go, "Yeah. You know, my boss was out to get me. The whole thing was BS. The prosecutor was so corrupt. The whole thing was a sham. They needed a fall guy. I just happened to be the guy that got victimized." You know, did he play the victim here? Or is it like, "Yeah, that was really dumb — I don't know what I was thinking. I was following some other folks. I learned a lot about myself through this. I'm lucky I didn't go to prison." There's a lot here also.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:06:55] Yup.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:55] I would get the details. Did he take documents from his company and then sell them? The whole thing was planned out. He knowingly did it. He snuck them out on a flash drive and all this stuff, stolen from his boss. Or did he just claim that he deleted his email when leaving a company but didn't, and they somehow caught him? You know, there's a big difference. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:07:14] Huge difference. Yeah. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:16] There's a difference here in terms of the amount of effort, I think, and planning that went into the crime. And there's a reason that criminal law usually takes these things into account especially with violent crime as well. Was it a deliberate act? Was it more an act of omission negligence? Both are bad but one is decidedly worse. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:07:32] Yeah. I mean, if this guy is truly remorseful, if he's demonstrably remorseful about his past if he's open about his past if he's actively working on building a more responsible life, that looks very different from the old one. Then I think that says a lot about him. Then I think he probably, at least — at the very least deserves a shot. But if he seems cagey and evasive, if he's still maybe even involved in some shady, then I would stay away. It's just not worth it. I couldn't help but think about Justin Paperny whom you interviewed sometime back. I think that was episode 226, one of the best ones — Lessons From Prison. Justin was a white-collar criminal who, I think, if I remember correctly engaged in some form of corporate fraud — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:09] Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:08:09] — related to stock sales or stock investments or something like that, and basically went through his prison experience consciously and conscientiously and came out a very different person. And the biggest thing that he decided to do was to own his story and to not try to hide it or play it down, or to tell a different version of events and just to be very transparent about the person who used to be, what led him to make those mistakes, why he decided to act in a shady way and to consciously build a very different life. I love that because I think that's a paradigm for how you can have a life after you make a mistake like this. But if this person she's talking to is not cut from that cloth, that he's going about this a totally different way. And he's trying to, I don't know, come up, spin some other tale, or try to hide it, or just hasn't changed at all from this experience, then why bother. Like you said, plenty of fish in the sea.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:59] Yeah cut and run.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:09:00] Cut and run.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:01] Exactly. All alright, what's next? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:09:03] Hey, Jordan and team. I'm in the financial services industry, working with high-net-worth individuals. My issue is I'm 28 years old and I look even younger. I have all the major designations for my industry already — CFA, CFP, and I'm working on more. But I have some clients who just cannot see past my age and how I look. I always try to come off more than professional using straightforward language, eye contact, and so on. I also try to call out the fact that I recognize I'm young and we're all thinking it, but that doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm doing or talking about when it comes to advising. Is there anything you can think of that I may not be doing besides, you know, dying my hair gray? Signed, The Certified Financial Preemie.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:42] Nice one. First of all, huge props for getting CFA, CFP at age 28. That's awesome — and working on more. You're really paving the way. I mean, you could shave your head, you got some male pattern baldness going, bleach the rest of your hair gray, get a dad bod. I can help you with that. I got a great strategy going for myself. Problem solved.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:10:01] In what situation, do you think he would be showing off his dad bod to a bunch of clients? 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:06] That's a good point. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:10:07] He works at Morgan Stanley or something.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:05] Yeah, maybe skip the dad bod part. My hair advice still stands, but seriously, this is a very real problem. And in a way, it's a reflection of how far along you are for your age. Because there's going to be a time very soon when your achievements and your age, the graph is going to intersect here, and this won't be a problem for you anymore at that point. But I can tell you this, man, when I was a lawyer at age, I think, 26, 27, I was like, "Well, no, one's going to take me seriously." Then I turned 30 and I was running my own business by then. I thought this is great. People are finally going to take me seriously. And as I got older, now I'm 40, and I'm like, "When did people start taking me seriously?" And the answer is, I don't know if they do, but I stopped caring a long ass time ago, a long time ago. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:10:57] Are you saying that you think part of this guy's problem is that he's so self-conscious about it, that it's becoming more of a problem for him?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:02] Yeah. That's exactly where I'm going with this. Like, you are self-conscious about it now and you can worry about it all you want, but it won't change anything. And one day, you're going to wake up and go, "Oh, yeah, this was never a big deal at all." But whether that happens at age 38 or age 29, after your next certification, you don't know. So you might as well either ignore this problem because it may not be that big of a problem. You're working a lot on your certifications and your experience. And if it rears its head, there's not a whole lot, you can do other than being the professional that you're being now and the highly qualified person that you're being.

[00:11:40] It's also worth noting that the field you're in which sounds like wealth management, basically handling people's money. This is sensitive. You know, I remember not wanting to hire a certain financial advisor, because he was like 32, but that's because I was about to hand over all my money — not all of it, a lot of my money. Client's biggest fear, everyone's biggest fear when they're working with a wealth manager is losing all of their money. Age, inexperience in the minds of your potential clients, those are indicators of risk. Of course, this is largely BS, but it's a legitimate concern. So the problem you're describing, I think is now short-term, five to seven years max, it's going to solve itself.

[00:12:17] But in the meantime, I would do a few things, keep working on yourself, keep investing in yourself, keep being undeniably great at what you do and getting greater by the day. This is how you become like the Wiz kid as opposed to the little whippersnapper that's unqualified. If they were asking you for help with some technology, your age would be a massive advantage, but since it's money, it's viewed as like this old white dudes game, kind of, right? That's the problem that everyone has. There are other letters in our inbox that say, "I'm a middle-aged person of color," or, "I'm a woman and I'm in this industry," and they run into problems like this. So at the very least, you can look at the advantage that you have, which is you can reframe this and you're going to outgrow this problem as well.

[00:13:01] Keep working on your confidence, keep working on your presentation, keep working on your client relationships. Gabe, what do you think about overcompensating though? You got to be kind of careful when you do this stuff because you don't want to look like, "Oh, I'm trying so hard. I'm wearing a three-piece suit and a pocket square and a bow tie every day on casual Friday because I'm the young guy in the office."

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:13:20] Yes. That could actually work against him. One of the things that stood out to me in this letter is that. He sounds like he has a sense of humor and some self-awareness. And even though he is very impressive, he does not take himself too seriously, which even though that might seem like it's adding to the perception that he's very young. He's actually probably working in his interest in another way. Because to your point earlier, people can smell the desperation of wanting to come across as something that you're not. I didn't get a strong sense of fake it till you make it or imposter syndrome in his letter. I think this is just a guy. Who is wanting to be great and is just struggling with his physical appearance for this odd window that he's in. So yes, absolutely, I would keep working on your competence, your presentation, your connections with your clients, all of that, but just to make sure that it's not dipping over into that overcompensation, that could actually perpetuate the problem the more you try to work it.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:11] You know, something else is developing relationships with your colleagues in the office. If you've got older CFAs, older CFPs, and they vouch for you in meetings, these are just financial qualifications — do you know what those stand for, Gabe? Are you familiar with these certifications?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:14:25] Yeah, I think one of them is a certified financial planner and CFA is either certified financial analyst — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:30] Is this above CPA or is it different entirely? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:14:33] This is different — that's not above. It's totally different.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:36] That's what I thought. I thought it was different but it's harder. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:14:39] A CFA is a chartered financial analyst and yeah, these are hard certifications — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:43] Yeah these are hard.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:14:44] — that can take a lot of studying and dedication. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:14:46] Yeah. No shade on CPAs. I just didn't have my cert straight. It feels like the bar exam, these kinds of things. I've heard them compared to the bar exam. I have no idea if they're harder or easier than the bar exam. I thought the bar exam was — well, that's another story for another day, but get these people to vouch for you in meetings. And a lot of clients are just going to transfer their trust in those professionals they've worked with for a long time and that they trust along to you. Like they might look at you a little bit of scants, but you'll have plenty of opportunities. There'll be a bigger window for you to prove yourself. They're not going to say like, "Who the hell is this?" Like, "Well, if so-and-so who I've been working with for 10 years says, you know what you're doing, then you know what you're doing." And that should be good enough and you can get them to do this by asking the good old Benjamin Franklin effect. Ask for advice, ask for mentorship on this topic or other topics so that you can keep growing, and also they'll have an affinity for you if you keep asking them for advice and mentorship. So that'll get you the vouches that you need, hopefully. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:15:41] Another thing I wonder if this guy could do is, start to build a book of business for himself, a portfolio of clients of his own if possible. I know he's early in his career and I know that's really hard, but I mean, why not start now? Maybe you can become the young, cool wealth manager with your younger clients who don't feel as uneasy perhaps about your age because they're closer to your age. Maybe you can grow those people into long-term clients. So that by the time you're 35, 38, 40, 45, like you have a book of business that is your own, and that will convince other people, new people, new clients that you're trustworthy. But in the meantime, I wouldn't stress too much about your perception or other people's perception of you for the next few years, I would prioritize your own growth and your own skills so that when that magic age hits, whatever that age is for you, that point when the graph meets up, those two lines intersect, this problem goes away. You'll have spent the last five years becoming awesome as opposed to spending the last five years worrying about how people see you. And yeah, you might have to grit your teeth a little. You might lose out on accounts here and there, or have a client go with somebody older in the office, but decide right now that you're going to play the long game.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:45] Great advice. And I think he should start building a book of business for himself anyway. I think everyone should do that. If they're in a client-focused business because — first of all, that's how you move up the ladder. That was my strategy to become a law partner. We all know how that worked out but still, it was a good strategy on its face. And then having the business yourself allows you to free yourself from firm life if that's what you want to do later on. I mean, there's a lot more options when you have a book of business, that's for sure.

[00:17:14] You're listening to Feedback Friday here on The Jordan Harbinger Show. We'll be right back.

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[00:19:57] And now back to Feedback Friday on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:20:02] All right, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:20:04] Hey, Jordan. I'm from Hong Kong and I love your podcast. You've shared some really groundbreaking advice for people in their mid-20s like me. I'm writing to ask you for some advice on an uncomfortable topic. I have a close friend who is currently strategy consulting for a global financial institution. She came from the same university as I did, but for some reason was able to join a major firm and later went in-house with an 80 percent salary raise. She's also engaged in lots of government-funded programs to help her CV look better and doing lots of social good initiatives, which frankly, I detest. Meanwhile, I've been struggling with my job in sales, which is thrilling sometimes, but also draining and frustrating a lot of the time. To be honest, I don't find my friend particularly bright, but she is definitely more people-oriented and less vocal about her opinions than I am. I've also become very critical of her work on social media. I find it hypocritical compared to the political situation that we're dealing with here. I don't know how to face her as a friend and I don't know how to steer myself in a situation like this. I do care about her a lot, but I feel like we're drifting away. Why do I feel this way? How do I deal with my envy and my resentment? Signed, Racked With Rivalry. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:11] First of all, Gabriel, I don't know about you, major props on this guy, recognizing this feeling and being willing to talk about it. That is not something most people — 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:21:21] Hundred percent. Most people do not want to talk about it. It's one of those emotions that is taboo. You're not supposed to confess that you're envious 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:27] Like it means something about you if you even have this feeling, which is such BS.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:21:31] Because everybody has it, totally.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:33] But it comes taboo because it's like, "Ooh, you're a bad person. If you're petty about something or envious about something." This is petty though. Envy is one of those feelings that rarely gets discussed. It's so ugly. It's uncomfortable. Everyone's dealing with it. Nobody wants to admit it. Everyone's ashamed of it. There are quotes about this. I feel like from literature, Gabriel, do you have one on deck by any chance? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:21:52] There was one though that was in an article we wrote about this. F. Scott Fitzgerald is an amazing writer. He said, "Nothing is as obnoxious as other people's luck." You know this is coming from a guy who had — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:02] So true.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:22:03] — definitely his share of bad luck, but a lot of good luck too. So it's universal. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:07] Yeah. Second, I think you're wrestling with these feelings right now partly — let me put it this way. Envy for me creeps up when I'm not happy with my own choices in the moment. It rarely creeps up when I'm feeling content about the work that I'm doing and the people that I'm around and all this other stuff. It comes from your own insecurity, not that you're an insecure person, but because you feel unstable at a certain period in your life or something like that. You're frustrated with, you're unhappy with your performance. You're seeing this other person do it another way and that's contributing to your envy. And this is so common and you are not alone. A lot of things we detest and other people is something we actually detest on some level in ourselves.

[00:22:44] The good news is I actually think envy is a really powerful teacher. It can be a powerful motivator. If you can learn how to process it the right way and put it to good use. Gabe, we did a piece on this. It was called Want to Overcome Envy? Make It Your Teacher. And there are different types of envy outlined in there. I highly recommend reading this if you or someone you know is dealing with envy especially if it's getting really toxic. Make envy your teacher. Don't beat yourself up. Don't beat yourself up about it, but also don't indulge it too much. There's more in the article, but take us through some principles here, Gabe, when it comes to envy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:23:18] First of all, we're going to link to this in the show notes. We're also going to link to it another great piece I think you should read on how to stop comparing yourself to other people. I still re-read it. It's one of the most important things I think we've worked on here on the show. It's important to understand that the envy that you're describing is super normal. It is hardwired. It is human. It's also a huge part of our culture. I mean, between social media and the culture at large and the way we're raised and we're the way we're educated and how we're just in this like a fishbowl looking at other people were around and comparing ourselves all the time. It is impossible as a human being to go through life and never feel an ounce of envy.

[00:23:51] What is under your control is learning from your feelings of envy and understanding how to process them and work with them so that they don't take over your whole experience entirely. There is a way to use envy to teach you what you want. A lot of that is distinguishing between the sources of your envy and the objects of your envy. And that's actually a great way that you can preserve your relationship with this person. I think a lot of what you're feeling about her actually has very little to do with her and everything she's accomplished and a lot to do with you and what you feel you should accomplish. And there's a way for your friendship to get stronger if you learn how to deal with some of these feelings. We talk about that a lot in the piece. So I won't repeat it here.

[00:24:25] A big piece of this also, I just want to say is taking stock of what you do have. Understanding that life is not a zero-sum game and learning how to put your envy into action is the way through this. I highly recommend checking out that article on envy and also the one on how to stop comparing yourself to other people. There's so much good stuff in there. It's helpful for us. I think it'll be helpful for you and we'll link to both of those in the show notes. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:24:43] All right. What's next? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:24:44] Hey, Team Harbinger. I just graduated in May and found out that my job, which was originally starting in August, is now delayed to January. I'm treating the next six months as a gap year and filling it with reading, volunteering, and making a podcast for fun. However, my dad is worried that my job offer will be rescinded and encouraged me to see if I can volunteer or do part-time work for them before I start. I've talked to some of the other employees at the company, and they're all confident about my job starting in January. Should I be concerned about my career? Should I try to start early or be developing my professional skills instead of just enjoying the next six months? What would you do? To Chill Or Not To Chill, That is The Question. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:21] Well, if we've learned one thing in this quarantine, it's that nothing is certain. Four months ago, a lot of people thought COVID would come and go. Obviously, that's not true. Jobs that were certain are now shaky or on shaky ground. Jobs that were on shaky ground are now essential and they're hiring people like crazy. It's a weird world. I'm not saying that to scare you. For all, we know your job is secure. It sounds fine. If they're telling you it's secure, then I don't see why they would deliberately lie to you. They just might not know. But just to prepare you for all possibilities, we've been getting tons of emails lately from people whose offers have gone away or who have been furloughed. It would be a little reckless to say that that couldn't happen to you. So here's what I recommend — and I don't want you to sit here and worry about it. So let me finish my thought here.

[00:26:03] Whatever you decide to do with this time, stay close with your employer. People talk about building relationships to get a job, but you also have to build relationships to keep and secure that job. Maybe check in every month, see how they're doing, tell them what you've been doing. Ask if there's anything you can do to prepare for starting and/or help in the meantime. This is going to signal that you are valuable. You're committed to this gig before you even begin. If it comes time to make a hard decision, this will go a very long way. Don't drop off until the week before you're supposed to start. I mean, if they're deciding between maybe they hired six people and now they only need three. Are they going to pick the person they haven't heard from all summer long? Or are they going to pick the person that's been in touch regularly and has been working on certain things or whatever? it's good to be on their radar.

[00:26:52] And if you feel like working early and they could use the help, I'd say go ahead and start as soon as you can. Maybe split the difference, start in three months rather than six, so you can still enjoy some downtime. I'm not saying you have to start right away, but I am saying if they offer that to you, it's always good to jump in first. Or if you think you can negotiate even a month earlier as a start, that's going to get your foot in the door, which is great. Gabe, what do you think?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:27:16] That is excellent advice. I would just add to that, that if this person does decide to take three or six months off, whatever it is, I think it's nice to take some time for yourself no matter what because as you get older, that gets harder and harder to do as we all know. But in this case, I would definitely spend that time investing in yourself in some way, take classes, read a ton, especially about the industry you're joining, but I would also recommend if you're into it, read fiction, watch movies, like do the things that you really have a hard time doing once you get a full-time job and get a jump on the education that you will need to crush it at this job when you start. Travel if you want to and if it's safe. I'm not really super-hot on recommending that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:27:52] That was I going to say before though — dude, I was like, "Oh man, that time off is going to be awesome. You can sit at home and watch Netflix."

[Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:27:59] This is a tricky one because we're in weird times and telling somebody to enjoy it and travel is like, somewhat of a risky proposition. I don't know what your situation is. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:08] Other times, Gabe, I would have been like, "It doesn't matter even if they offer you an early start. Take this time because you're never going to have this again, possibly like jump at this opportunity." And now I'm like, "What the hell else are you doing, man?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:28:19] I mean, there are ways to travel that are not super — you could take a road trip, you could travel around within your own country. I mean, you could — I don't know what other means of transportation that do not put you in a sneezing distance of your fellow man. I'm not sure.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:28:33] I think Barbados is doing some sort of digital nomad visa. I heard about this where you can go there and I think they quarantine you for X days. And then you just chill in Barbados and work virtually because so many people are working from home. They're like, "Hey, come down here where we don't have it, supposedly, and you can just relax in Barbados," and they're sort of exploring this idea. So there are things you can do. You can get creative. You could go to New Zealand, quarantine for two weeks, and then spend the next five and a half months there. Go for it. But you have to kind of commit to it. It's no longer the digital nomad. Like I'm getting a Euro train ticket and I'm just going to you — that's not really something you can do anymore. Everything is close.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:29:13] On top of that, I would just in general, think about the story that you would tell if you had to re-interview for a job in six months. So if you were sitting across from a hiring manager, I'm not saying your job is going to fall through. I'm not trying to worry you, but just imagine that if it did or you had to re-interview with your company, what would you want to say? Like, how did you spend the last six months? Why are you a good candidate? What have you done? That is an asset. How did you spend the last few months preparing to be the best employee possible? I think if you try to answer those questions in advance, you can still have fun. You can still travel or read or watch movies or whatever goes, taking cooking classes. I don't know what you're into, whatever it is and still, sort of be investing in yourself with a job. If you can do both of those things and enjoy a little time off and maybe start soon, then I think your gold. But really this just comes down to how much risk you're willing to take and how important six months of freedom is to you versus starting work early. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:30:02] I think that's a good thought exercise. Like how would you re-interview for this? One last note from me, this is not worth stressing about if I'm in your shoes as a fresh grad, knowing me all I do over the next six months is stress out over something I can't control. So assume your job is secure, but develop yourself like it's not. Does that make sense? So like assume everything's going to be fine, but work yourself — better yourself, work to better yourself. Like you don't have anything necessarily coming up or like you have to re-interview for it and that way you don't have to stress about this and you're moving forward and developing. You're keeping your edge. You're enjoying your time off. I think that's the way to go about this. Don't ruin the next six months just wondering if you have a job because if you don't, your worry was a waste of time. And if you do, your worry was a waste of time. So I wish I could take my own advice, I really do.

[00:30:59] This is The Jordan Harbinger Show and this is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back. 

[00:31:04] This episode is sponsored in part by HelloFresh. This is a meal delivery service, and I got to admit, Jen ordered the locale version. They have vegetarian family-friendly stuff every week, but she ordered the locale. And I was kind of pissed. We practically licked the plate on this tortellini and chicken dish. This thing was — I mean, it was flat-out delicious, honestly. I'm not one for hyperbole especially in a sponsor read, but I've got to tell you, this was freaking awesome, also contactless delivery to your doorstep, basically, you know, UPS guy, it brings it. He did hand it to me. It was probably irresponsible, but you don't have to deal with it like that. And also I was worried about other shipping us, all this cooled stuff, that's probably a big carbon footprint. Actually, HelloFresh has a carbon footprint that is 25 percent lower than store-bought grocery-made meals, which I did not see that coming. I thought it was probably kind of wasteful delivering me a box every week but apparently, that's even better for the environment due to carbon footprint. What do I know? I learn something new every day. Go to hellofresh.com/jhs80. Don't ask me what's up with that code. Use the code J-H-S-80 to get 80 bucks off, so you're not complaining now, huh, now that codes fine. Includes free shipping on your first box. Additional restrictions apply. Please visit hellofresh.com for more details. That's hellofresh.com/J-H-S-8-0.

[00:32:23] This episode is also sponsored by Better Help. Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. A lot of us are dealing with stress, anxiety, depression, and you are not alone. Better Help offers licensed professional counselors who are trained to listen and to help try to find a therapist. It can be a huge pain right now. A lot of them are not taking new patients. You get a drive over there. You need to find one that's going to treat you right. Better Help is different. Simply fill out a questionnaire. They'll help assess your needs and match you with a counselor and under 48 hours, secure video or phone sessions with your therapist. Plus you can text chat with them. You get professional help when you want, wherever you are.

Jen Harbinger: [00:32:59] Better Help is an affordable option and our listeners get 10 percent off your first month with the discount code JORDAN. In fact, so many people have been using Better Help that they are recruiting additional counselors in all 50 states. Get started today at betterhelp.com/jordan. That's better-H-E-L-P.com/jordan. Talk to a therapist online and get help.

[00:33:22] After the show, we've got a preview trailer of our interview with an angel investor, Jason Calacanis. If you're a founder or interested in business or ideas, you're going to want to hear this. So stay tuned for that after the close of the show.

[00:33:34] Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going, who doesn't love some good products and/or services? You can always visit jordanharbinger.com/deals for all the details on everybody that helps support the show.

[00:33:48] And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday.

[00:33:53] All right, what's next? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:33:54] Dear Gang, I love the show. It has seriously changed my life in so many ways. I've been a nurse in the COVID unit in my hospital for five months now. While at first, it was complete chaos, we've become more organized and gained more help. According to my coworker, we will be in this unit until the vaccine is made, possibly as long as two years. The problem is that my family and friends are terrified to be near me, even with a mask on, my parents and friends are having small social gatherings and they never invite me. My coworkers at least have significant others for emotional support and interaction. I am a single woman in her early 40s. I feel so alone. I just completed an advanced degree in nursing and I can't even celebrate with anyone. I understand their fears and I don't hold it against them even though only one employee on our unit has contracted the virus because of our facility, everything possible to protect us. Still, I feel like an outcast and it has really hurt my feelings. I've spent too much money online, shopping to cope. I appreciate any advice to help me get through these times. Thanks for everything. Tainted Nurse. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:52] I really feel for you on this. Everyone right now is going through various degrees of suffering related to loneliness, isolation, et cetera. And you are hit especially hard because of your job and because you are single. And I can hear how hard it is from your letter. And I'm really sorry that you're going through this. First, and I know this is tough, try not to take what your friends and family are doing personally. I know it's hard to say that, and I know it's hurtful when they exclude you, but they're not doing this to you. They're doing it for them even if they're a little misguided. It's very easy to personalize this stuff especially right now when you're feeling alone and I get it. It is personal for you, it's happening to you, but that doesn't mean that they're targeting you. They're afraid. You know, you're the casualty of that fear.

[00:35:36] Second, consider talking to your friends and family about how you're feeling explained to them, how hard it is for you lately, how much you'd want to be included in their events. Tell them about the safety protocols on your unit, how few people have gotten infected. Ask if they would take that into account when they host their gatherings. And I would try to connect with people in other ways. You don't have to social distance, you can just physical distance, FaceTime, Skype. I know these are kind of crappy poultry substitutes, but they are everything for a lot of folks right now. There's a lot of Zoom calls going on all the time. There's a lot of virtual events going on all the time. I know it's not the same thing. I really do and I know we're going to see some science about that in the next few years about whether or not online interaction, you know, to what extent is that a substitute for actual social contact. Gabe, there's got to be more here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:36:28] I just want to echo that this is so difficult. There's no easy solution for what you're talking about. You are in the epicenter of what is happening right now with COVID, but what you are describing is what I think everybody feels to some degree, everybody listening to this as nodding along with you. We've all been isolated. You have been isolated more than most. There was something in your letter, which we actually didn't read, just cause we were trying to keep it a little bit concise, but you said that you love this part of nursing and that really got me because I feel like you are in some sense, being punished for the job, this incredibly important job that you have, that you actually love. Like she is in the middle of doing really dangerous and scary work and she still loves it. And on top of it, her hospital or wherever she works is taking pretty good care of them. And she's still not able to hang out with people. It's just a crappy situation. And I'm sorry that you're going through it.

[00:37:15] I do think Jordan is dead on and on top of it, I would say that you might want to consider talking to a professional if you feel you need it, even if it's just for a short period of time. Find a therapist, find a counselor. Jordan talks a lot about Better Help, sponsor of the show, something worth looking into. Or consider maybe talking a little bit more often to other people on your unit. I know that they're not in this exact same situation you are, but you do have a shared experience there for sure. I was wondering Jordan, what if she hosted a gathering for her colleagues or what if she were the one to get everyone who's excluded elsewhere together? 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:47] Right. What is that called? When you have Friendsgiving when you have nowhere to go for Thanksgiving.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:37:54] Yeah, it's like COVID giving except hopefully, nobody is giving COVID.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:56] Not, except you're not giving COVID hopefully.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:37:58] Let's work up the name but you know what I mean. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:00] Yes, exactly. Let's workshop. Let's put that one back in the hopper and kick some ideas around. But yes, I like the idea of having a — there's got to be other people in your unit that are also alone or maybe not even in your unit, just other health care professionals. Is there a way to network with other people and other COVID units that might be going to this? There's got to be other people in the same situation.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:38:23] I'm telling you she's not alone. I think she feels alone, but she is not alone in this situation 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:28] Also, you know, I do wonder are you taking care of yourself in other ways? Because I think it's really easy to come home exhausted and be like, I don't have time to do anything. But for me, exercise walks. I know some people do meditation. There's like online yoga classes now. This might be something that you look forward to and actually really enjoy doing. And it's a good excuse to get in shape and do some exercise. There's a lot of people that are like, "Oh, I can't do this," but there are trainers working on group classes at home. I see it all the time. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:38:57] Actually. You know, Jordan, that's a really good point because when quarantine first kicked in, I was, you know, I started working out at home and I work out every single day. If I didn't, I would be going insane for real. I would log onto the Zoom classes and it was a great class but actually, a huge part of it was like seeing other people and moving my body with other people and being part of the community that grew up around that class. And even though I'm working out on my own, I still check into those classes one or two times a week just to stay close to these people. So I definitely think that's super wise advice. You know, you're on your feet a lot. You're dealing with other people's needs all the time. That is the definition of your job. It's really important to take care of your needs as well. I know that two years is a really long time.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:37] It is a long time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:39:38] Insanely hard to wrap your head around and you're taking on a burden that is so big. And that's part of what makes your job so important right now. I admire you and I'm really grateful for it. I hope you find the connections you need to get through it. Hang in there.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:50] All right, Gabe, last but not least. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:39:53] Hey, Jordan, I just started listening to the show and began your Six-Minute Networking course. I love what you're doing here. I'm a software developer at heart, master's in computer science background from Denmark, now living in Sweden. I worked in Southeast Asia for a year and a half to explore the world and now find myself in my first middle-management position of my security consulting career at 43 years old. I'm currently in the Gmail roulette part of the course, and I've been sending texts, LinkedIn messages, and now emails to former colleagues and friends. I have a huge success rate on these almost a hundred percent which is awesome. However, I do find myself in a bind. What do I do with all that incoming traffic? I really don't have that time to meet all of these people in the next few weeks for a coffee. So how and where do I leave the conversation? It feels a bit odd just to say hello, and then not follow up with something, but maybe that's just me. Any advice on this? Too Connected For My Own Good. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:42] First of all, this is a great response rate. I mean, almost a hundred percent is awesome. Anything over half is great. And if you're getting less than half, it doesn't really matter. Your network will start to warm. You'll get some more active people in it. So for people who are below 50 percent, don't worry about it. Although I feel like I never hear about that. Usually, it is like a 70-plus percent response rate. I mean, that's what I found for myself 75, 100 percent almost. So you're doing great. You're in Sweden or Denmark or whatever, but, you know, for me over here in the United States now is a great time for all of us to network, unfortunately, because our excuses, we can't go anywhere and nothing is open. So if somebody asks you to meet up, you can just say like, "No, you know what? I'm self-isolating because I have to. We're sheltered in place. Unless you want to go out and meet them, of course, then it's your prerogative. Go right ahead and do it.

[00:41:30] I also will say something like in any environment, whether we have a pandemic around the globe or not, I'll say, "I'm slammed. I wanted to reach out to you because I know it might be a while until we start to see each other. Wish we could get together, but right now I'm working on all these projects and I've got a kid, but I wanted to make sure that I took a minute and reached out to you here via email, text," whatever it is that you use to reach out to them because I know it might be a while until I'm freed up. Gabe, what do you think? I mean, do you generally just avoid everyone like me? Or are you, uh, are you a phone call kind of guy? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:42:04] Yeah. I mean, one of the unexpected benefits of the pandemic is that it's more acceptable to do phone calls and Zoom meetings. So if this is super taxing — by the way, let me just acknowledge, this is like such a high-class problem that this guy has. You should be happy about that. I mean, he's doing something right to be in this conundrum, but I would say that, yeah, the pandemic has made it more acceptable for you to just jump on Zoom for 10 minutes, say hi to somebody, jump on the phone and be like, "I got to keep it brief. I have a ton of stuff going on, but I wanted to connect." I mean, I think you have licensed to do that anyway, but I think the pandemic just brought it to the surface that that has always been an option. But if you don't want to jump on zoom and you don't want to jump on the phone, you literally do, do not have time or desire to talk to any of the people that you're connecting with, then you could always just be a better emailer and just be a little bit more, I don't know, a little bit, share a little bit more by email. Be a better correspondent, like respond to emails and a little more quickly or whatever. Sometimes that can scale your connections maybe a little bit more easily than having to meet everybody personally.

[00:42:59] But ultimately, I don't think there's a right answer to this Jordan. I don't think that there's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. It's really about his personal preferences. The important thing is that he's reconnecting with all these people. So however he wants to maintain those relationships, I think it is cool.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:43:11] I think that's cool. I think he's probably just asking about like, how am I going to have all this coffee or all of these lunches. It's not scalable. That's the problem. It's not scalable. So Zoom, phone calls, those are more scalable. And then you get to a certain type of busy where you won't even have time for those and then stick to text messages, or you can do those voice messages and those little videos that people shoot to each other on WhatsApp, whatever you're comfortable with, whatever your social circles/culture of friends or our professionals is comfortable with. But you definitely do not, and should not go out and just meet with everybody who asks for your time, this is a good practice in saying no and guarding your time while also creating and maintaining relationships over time.

[00:43:51] Hope you all enjoy that. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week. Go back and check out our two-part episode with Aimen Dean if you haven't yet, chief Al-Qaeda poison-maker bomber, now counter-intelligence expert, amazing. Want to know how we get all these great guests on the show? It's about our relationships, systems, tiny habits that we just talked about in that last question there, check out Six-Minute Networking. It's free. It's over there on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. There's no upsell. You don't have to enter your credit card. None of that BS. Dig the well, before you get thirsty. Now is the time to do it. This is the time. There is no better time than right now, 20 years ago, maybe, but now even better that we can't go — people can't ask for too much of your time. They don't have it. There's no ability to go do anything if you're here in the United States, this is actually an advantage when you're working on these relationships. Believe it or not, it is. People are more responsive and people are less apt to do something in-person. So that's a good combo for scaling this up. You can find that course at jordanharbinger.com/course.

[00:44:49] A link to the show notes for this episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts — where are those, Gabe? Are they in the show notes? You're damn right they are. There's a video of this on our YouTube channel at jordanharbinger.com/youtube. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on Twitter, Instagram. You can hit me on LinkedIn.

[00:45:05] This show is created in association with PodcastOne and my amazing team, including Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo — and you, of course, Gabriel Mizrahi, thank you for being here. Keep sending in those questions to friday@jordanharbinger.com. Our advice and opinions, and those of our guests are their own. I'm a lawyer, not your lawyer. So do your own research before implementing things you hear on this show. And remember, we rise by lifting others, share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with somebody who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

[00:45:45] As promised, here's a preview trailer of my interview here with Jason Calacanis.

Jason Calacanis: [00:45:51] I built Weblogs Inc., and 18 months after we were growing it, we were at about 150K in total revenue and AOL came and offered us 30 million bucks for it. I had a negative 10,000 in my bank account and I was walking my old dog, Toro — rest in peace — and smoking a cigar with my wife. And we were sitting there in Santa Monica. We had a $2,000 a month, the apartment, and I said, "They've offered us $30 million. I can't keep up with our credit card bills. I'm going to take it." And she's like, "This is going to be crazy. We're going to have over $10 million in our bank account." I was like, "Yep." I sat there and I just had to have this like really long look like deep moment because I had a very complicated relationship with money and being poor because — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:46:36] You grew up wanting to be rich.

Jason Calacanis: [00:46:38] Exactly. And I want it to be powerful and rich when I was a kid and looking back on it, the reason I want it to be powerful and rich is because I was poor and I had no power. My wife remembers the story and I remember the story like it was yesterday. I was sitting there refreshing my Bank of America account, the corporate account and nothing, nothing, nothing, and then boom, 27 million bucks and I started crying. My wife was like, "What are you crying to?" I spent the majority of my life broke. I don't have to worry about money ever again.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:06] Ever.

[00:47:08] For more with Jason Calacanis, including what venture capitalists are looking for in startup founders and how to make yourself more marketable, whether you're a founder or an angel investor yourself, check out episode 100 right here on The Jordan Harbinger Show.