1155: Love Could Be Dandy If He’d Quit the Nose Candy | Feedback Friday

1155: Love Could Be Dandy If He'd Quit the Nose Candy | Feedback Friday

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Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the toaster going ding, as this sweet loaf of crispy life advice pops on up. Gabriel Mizrahi. That's a brel.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That was a Breville sound

Jordan Harbinger: right there. It's Brel sound. Actually, that's

Gabriel Mizrahi: not the sound at all.

I don't know why I said that.

Jordan Harbinger: I would imagine a Breville toaster is a

Gabriel Mizrahi: digital. Yeah, it's like a de de de. And you did like the 1980s toaster and every family movie.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Ding. That pops up and you smell the burned crumbs that are in the bottom that have been in there for two months just getting roasted every time.

The toaster of yesteryear. It is on The Jordan Harbinger Show we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

And during the week we have long form conversations with a variety of incredible people from former Jihadists and drug traffickers, astronauts. Tech luminaries. This week we had comedian and game show host Drew [00:01:00] Carey. We talked about his career. The price is right. I asked him a lot of kind of crazy prices, right?

Questions. Has anyone cheated? What's the trick? There's a lot of fun stories about that actually. He, we laughed a lot during this episode. No big surprise. He's got a ton of stories that he's volunteered regularly. It was a really fun conversation. We also had Sean Williams on, he's a journalist. We covered North Korea meth in North Korea.

Human trafficking the way North Korea makes money for the state. Very different episode than the Drew Carey one, of course, but also equally interesting, especially if you're into GL politics. On Fridays though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and compare Gabe to various high-end kitchen appliances or just kitchen appliances in general.

I dunno, toaster of yesterday are not exactly something to write home about. Before we dive in, I gotta tell you, I just started jumping rope. It's kind of awesome.

Gabriel Mizrahi: You just discovered it.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I discovered something that all children know about. Yeah. I was never good at it as a kid 'cause I was just outta shape.

I was a normal Midwest couch potato growing up [00:02:00] and I decided to jump rope in day one. I was like, this is so difficult. I do not wanna do this. And on day two I realized that the workout I did on day one that I really couldn't even barely finish was too easy. That's how fast I started to progress in this day three is like the same.

It's like, oh, I'm gonna do five minutes instead of two minutes. It was crazy and it's wild how fast your body adapts. Yeah, sure. Maybe I was a little tired on the first day or something, but it's absolutely bonkers how fast you get better at this. And it doesn't have to be brutal. It wasn't like, I'm not heaving, I don't feel like barfing afterwards.

I really encourage you all to give it a try because there's so many people out there that are like, oh, I need to improve my cardiovascular health, but running sucks and I don't have a pool to swim in. Whatever. Just try jumping rope. You just need cheap PVC jump rope. They don't kink, they travel well.

They're super cheap. And even the ones that aren't cheap that are really good, you can grab one of those. It's gonna last you, for the rest of your life, get a custom length one if you find that they're too [00:03:00] long or too short for you. If you got that sort of weird body type like I do, I think it's just a, a game changer.

I had a health exam recently and my resting heart rate was quote unquote too low. And they're like, oh, this is bad unless you're athletic. And I was like, I'm athletic. And I thought, huh, I wonder how low I can get my heart rate. 'cause I don't run, I don't really do any of that stuff. I get cardio during my workouts just from other things.

And I thought, what if I just did something cardio specific as kind of like a fat burn every day or five days a week? And this is what I chose. And I'm really interested to see how over time this works for your heart. The other thing that jumping rope does is it's good for bone density. Most of us don't think about, but hey, I'm 45 and I'm a guy.

My bone density, according to my DEXA scans, went down just a very minute, almost imperceptible amount that could actually be statistical noise, but they were like, eh, just in case it's not, you should jump rope. And that was another reason why I picked this. So especially if you're a female and you might end up with the whole osteoporosis type stuff, [00:04:00] jumping rope is even better for you for that reason too.

So even if you don't need cardio, jumping rope is good for bone density, and that is something that all of us need. And if you're young, build that bone density while you can. 'cause right now, once you get to a certain age, you're just staving off the inevitable instead of rebuilding it at a fast rate. So jump rope and hey, if you do it, let me know how it's going for you, especially if you do blood work or you measure your heart rate, stuff like that.

I'm curious. How this goes. I looked up advanced workouts and they all involve coordination that I can't do. Oh, try triple unders and double unders. I'm like, uh, okay, and let's try this. Where you skip from one foot to the other and then you switch hands with the rope and I'm like, okay, they're giving me a little bit too much credit here.

I can just barely do this without stopping every 10 seconds because I hit myself in the foot or the head. That's where we're at coordination wise. Anyway. We got some fun ones. We got some doozies. Gabe, what is the first thing outta the mail bag?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I met my boyfriend Adam almost a year ago at work.

We clicked straight away, but it took four [00:05:00] months before our relationship developed into something romantic. Adam is a bit of a nomad. He works seasonally moving from country to country. He's full of energy and has an almost childlike curiosity for the world. I love this about him, but he also has a pretty dark past abuse in his childhood.

Prison betrayal and drugs. When I met him, he smoked weed from time to time, but he lived a very healthy lifestyle, working out eating healthy and sleeping well. I didn't see any negative effects of the weed, so it didn't bother me. Then last winter I visited Adam for two months on the island he was working on.

He had developed a bit of a cocaine and weed problem. During my time there, I saw the negative effects, including paranoia, but I didn't realize how bad his addiction was. I also realized that he has extreme trust issues, maybe triggered or worsened by the cocaine. He would constantly think that I was cheating or lying to him.

Small things like me eating a whole ice cream carton [00:06:00] myself, going for a walk in the same place a couple days in a row and coming back too quickly from eating lunch at a restaurant made him think I was cheating.

Jordan Harbinger: Wait, wait, wait.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Hold on. Confusing,

Jordan Harbinger: right? How? Yeah. How does eating a bunch of ice cream. Or coming back quickly from lunch mean you're cheating.

I don't get it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: If anything, doesn't it suggest the opposite, that you're not taking a three hour lunch? Yeah. Potentially watching your figure. I don't understand. Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: sure. Maybe he's outing himself here. Like, aha, you must be seeing another two pump jump. 'cause nobody can eat a burrito that fast.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I don't mean to brag, but uh, more of a jackfruit, caritas taco bowl myself.

Yeah. With extra guac. With extra guac.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. Exactly. If the rumors are true. Okay, so this guy is a little intense. Cocaine will do that to you or, so I've heard this is worrisome. This is weird. It's beyond just like the sort of mania that you get from being high.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He claims that all this was triggered by me texting with guys and hiding it from him.

The guys I was texting with were a [00:07:00] taxi driver and a hiking guide, both in their fifties with kids.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Okay. So this guy is either incredibly insecure or the drugs are doing a number on his brain, which is kind of what drugs do, or probably a little bit of both. I let Adam read all

the

Gabriel Mizrahi: texts and go through my whole phone in hopes that would reassure him.

For the two months I was with him on that trip. We could always talk about these incidents, and I managed to calm him down. Then I got pregnant. This Adam handled perfectly. We talked about it. It wasn't an easy decision, but we decided that abortion was the best option. I think the reasons are quite obvious, but this letter is not about the abortion.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I hear you. But man, count your lucky stars that you are not having a child with this guy. Just imagine how much worse this would be with a kid. In the mix. And you've got a cocaine addicted husband? Uh, yes. Yeah, no.

Gabriel Mizrahi: When I went back home, all hell broke loose. He started doing lots of cocaine to the point where it seemed like he had completely lost his mind.

[00:08:00] He would get high after he finished work and go into manic episodes about me cheating. He would stay up till four or five in the morning, calling me a hundred times and texting me and saying stuff. The evidence of me cheating became more and more farfetched to the point where I could see no logic at all.

But to him it was completely obvious. He would also tell me things like, he can't go home because cars are following him, that he has to buy a gun and that he was gonna put a knife to the throat of men that he thought I might have cheated with to find out the truth.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh god, this is dark and this is scary.

That is crazy.

Gabriel Mizrahi: That's when I started thinking about you guys and what you would tell me to do. Oh, good. What did we tell her to do, Gabe? I'm so curious. Virtual Jordan and Gabe, I decided to set boundaries. I wouldn't talk or text with him when he was high. It's not easy to ignore him, but I tried. I focused on taking care of myself, working out, eating healthy, sleeping well.

When Adam brings up feelings in a mature, sober way, I listen without judgment and never tell him that he's crazy or [00:09:00] anything. I'm always honest. I don't even tell white lies

Jordan Harbinger: solid advice. Okay. I think we crushed

Gabriel Mizrahi: that. Yeah, we really look. All right. Next up. Next up. Let's move on. I believe he really wants to get clean, but he doesn't want to admit that he has a problem.

He says he is been quote fucked up many times before and always managed to get back on track. That's reassuring. What do you hear yourself, sir? I mean, isn't that another way of saying I've relapsed multiple times? Yeah, exactly. That's a really good point. I see it more like he's managed to stay clean for short periods of time and always relapse.

That's what that means

Jordan Harbinger: actually, yes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: If I bring up rehab, his response is going to rehab would make me a complete junkie.

Jordan Harbinger: Lemme stop you right there. Yeah. That is so sad because bro, you are a junkie. Yeah. So he's in denial slash ashamed of how bad this has actually gotten. Rehab doesn't turn you into a junkie.

But he doesn't wanna admit that he has a problem that's bad enough for rehab because doing so would be him [00:10:00] admitting to himself that he is a junkie and needs help.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The old Amy Winehouse defense. Yeah, that's

Jordan Harbinger: right. They try to make me go to rehab and I said, blow, blow, blow, blow.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. How'd that work out for her?

Exactly. It's been a minute since her last album. I can't, uh, tragic end or did it all? No, it did not work out well. No, it did not. So she goes on, I've been trying to open him up to therapy, but I don't wanna feel like I'm forcing him. If he spends all his money on cocaine instead of rent and food, he'll have to sleep on the street and starve.

Meanwhile, I'm not a party person. I've tried weed, didn't like it. I would never try any stronger drugs. I used to enjoy a beer every once in a while, but now that I've seen what addiction can do to a person, I enjoy a glass of cold water even more.

Jordan Harbinger: That sounds like my kind of party these days too. Like it just bring

Gabriel Mizrahi: a jump rope.

We got ourselves away. Exactly.

Jordan Harbinger: Just a jump rope and some spindrift.

Gabriel Mizrahi: When Jordan and I get together, we rail lines of H2O. Yep. Just toss a pack, ofp, pedia light on a mirror and chop it up and go to town. You know it's good when it burns. [00:11:00] Jordan is about two element packets away from checking into passages in Malibu for an electrolyte addiction.

That's what plants crave. I'm aware that I might have to leave Adam for my own good, but I'm not willing to give up on him just yet. I really love this man. I think we can be really good together. I come from a really good family and I know Adam would fit in perfectly with them.

Jordan Harbinger: I have questions about that, that What do you know?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Depends on the family. I'm willing to help him in any way possible, but not enable him. The past two weeks, he's been clean from cocaine except for one relapse.

Jordan Harbinger: Let me stop you once again. So not clean for two weeks. I just wanna be clear about the, he's been clean for two weeks except for one relapse, so he's been clean for X number of days.

That's all that means.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I'm done with all the murdering except for the one body in my basement, right? That happened last week,

Jordan Harbinger: but that was last week. Fine. It was on Sunday, so technically this week, but it was like several days ago.

Gabriel Mizrahi: He still smokes weed, but he's working out sleeping and eating well. In about one month, he's coming back to my workplace.[00:12:00]

This is a good place for him. It's in the forest, and the closest towns are small with nothing much going on. The best things to do here are hike, swim, climb, stuff like that. We have weed, cocaine and other drugs here, but not as much as where he is now. How should I handle it when he doesn't trust me? Do I send a picture of myself wherever I am as proof I'm not cheating?

Or does he have to learn to trust me? Oh, man, how do I handle this when he asks me calmly and when he's upset? What is the best way to stop using, cut everything off in one day, or start with the cocaine and then slowly get off the weed? What kind of treatment is best when he can't access a free treatment?

And what more can I do to help? Signed trying to cope with being put under the microscope when my boyfriend won't stop hitting the slopes.

Jordan Harbinger: Huh, boy. Okay. Wow. It goes without saying. I'm very sorry that Adam is caught up in this addiction. I'm sorry for the impact it's had on you. Being in a relationship with somebody in active addiction, any kind of relationship.

It's really tough. You know [00:13:00] this. It's upsetting. It's chaotic. It's dysfunctional. It's scary sometimes. It literally doesn't even make sense. And I'm just very sorry that you've had to deal with all this, that Adam has put you through this so. Whew. There's a lot we could talk about here, but let me try to cut to the chase here You are in a relationship with an addict who has what sounds like serious trauma and some pretty severe mental health stuff on top of all that.

So the cocaine use is concerning though, but I'm actually very concerned about the paranoia, what you're describing it sounds like more than your garden variety drug-induced paranoia, Gabe, look, I'm not gonna pretend I don't know anybody who's used cocaine a lot. You either have to do just a ton of it for a long time to do that to your brain, or it has to bring out something that was already there that doesn't show up unless you're blown outta your mind.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. It sounds like he has some actual delusions, which is scary.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, look, people do cocaine at parties and they don't go, I can't go home 'cause there's cars following me. They don't do that. He's gotta buy a [00:14:00] gun. Come on. This is serious, man. Look, it might just be the drugs, okay? There might be a paranoid slash delusional quality to whatever mental health stuff he has going on as well.

Or he might be experiencing something even more severe like psychosis, which can be brought on by drug use. And it's also violent. That's what worries me the most. Yeah. That freaks me out. I mean, you hear yourself, right? He wants to buy a gun. He's calling you hundreds of times, even if you're exaggerating.

What? It's dozens and dozens of times at four o'clock in the morning, he can't stay clean for two whole weeks. He's threatening to hold men that you talk to at knife point to find out if they've been cheating with you. How's that gonna go down? What if he's hopped up on cocaine? Somebody decides that this guy's trying to kill them, and they get in a fight and he ends up stabbing and killing someone.

Or, I hate to even imagine this. I know he hasn't done anything like this before as far as we know, but who's to say he's not gonna snap and get violent with our friend here who's writing it? I mean,

Gabriel Mizrahi: yeah, that's what I'm worried about.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, especially if he continues to [00:15:00] decompensate. I mean, it's not that big of a jump from cars are following me and you're cheating on me, to you are the one who's arranging the cars to follow me and you're trying to kill me.

Okay? That's not that big of a leap. There's just so many red flags here. And the point is, there's no indication whatsoever that he's serious about addressing this stuff, about getting sober. I know you know that. What I get, the sense you aren't fully aware of is this complicated dynamic that's developed between the two of you where Adam goes off the rails, pardon the punt, and, and you respond by managing his anger and his paranoia and reassuring him and letting him go through your phone and pushing him to get help, forgiving him, holding out hope that he'll improve.

And now to be fair, you have made some important adjustments, okay? I really commend you for that. These new boundaries, your ground rules, making sure you're taking basic care of yourself, all of that is super helpful. It's important. So that's great. But it doesn't change the fact that Adam is in serious trouble and that you're left managing and holding a lot of his anxiety and pain, [00:16:00] that this whole situation is all kinds of dysfunctional.

What I wanna encourage you to start appreciating is that you're both getting something out of this situation or more to the point. You're both working something out. Like you said when you met, you guys just clicked. But it's clear that your puzzle pieces fit together in ways that go beyond just basic chemistry.

What Adam is working out, honestly, I'm not entirely sure. I'm sure a big component of this is just numbing the pain he's in, given his childhood, his experiences in prison, all that. But you are working out something on your own too, right? When you said that you might have to leave Adam for your own good, but you're not willing to give up on him just yet, that you feel you could be really good together, Adam would fit in perfectly with your family.

I. Somewhere in there is the key, and I can't tell you exactly what it is, but my hunch is that there's some kind of enactment going on here. Whenever we stick with somebody who's troubled, who isn't putting in the work to work on their stuff, I think that's always a sign that there's something deeper at play, and it's [00:17:00] almost always something that's just a lot older.

In other words, your own childhood and early experiences are playing a big role here, and that can be true even if it's not one-to-one. For example, you don't have to have a parent who's an addict. To explain why you're in a relationship with an addict now, but if, let's just say you are always trying to fix a parent from a young age, or a parent withheld love from you, or you got the message that you would only be loved when you prop somebody up or whatever.

You're anxious about confronting a future without a partner, even one as chaotic as this. Look, I'm just naming a few common templates here. Then all of this could explain why you're staying in this relationship, what you're trying to master or work out through it. This is the work of untangling codependence.

Anyway, I'm digging into all this, not so much to like diagnose you, which I obviously can't do. This is really for you to figure out for yourself really. I just wanna encourage you to get a lot more curious about what's happening on your side of the equation. 'cause this whole relationship contains a ton of crucial information about you [00:18:00] and the work that you need to do.

You're asking a lot of questions about how to help Adam, how to respond to Adam, how to make Adam get help, not so much about you and how you ended up here and where this need to rescue Adam is coming from in the first place. You need to be looking at both. No, I would not text him pictures to prove that you're not cheating.

Of course, he needs to learn to trust you. That's so weird that. You're even thinking of doing that. I'm not trying to be insulting, but holy smokes, do you hear yourself? The thing is, I don't know if he's gonna learn to trust you until A, he kicks the drugs that are making him paranoid or triggering that paranoia.

B, he starts addressing his trauma and the root of this fear that you're constantly cheating on him, and C finds out what it's like to sit with the feeling of trusting you when he's sober and confronting this pattern and the paranoia and the distress. That's basically the process, and yeah, a lot of that should probably happen in therapy and you can't make him go to that either.

Just like you can't make him go to rehab or attend a 12 step meeting or do anything really, [00:19:00] which is the conclusion that you're heading toward. But therapy isn't the only place to begin working on this stuff. There are so many people and resources out there if you really wanted to get help.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. And as for how to talk to him when he accuses you.

I really like your rule about only talking to him when he is sober, although I can't tell how successful that's been. You said you tried. I'm not sure if that means you tried and then gave up 'cause it wasn't doable. I also appreciate though, that you're trying to listen without judgment. You're not just like, Hey, stop it, Adam.

You're crazy or whatever.

Jordan Harbinger: I appreciate that she's trying not to invalidate or dismiss him and being told you're crazy is never easy. But the fact is, yo, he's acting pretty nuts.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. Come on. He is a little crazy. That's true. This is not reasonable behavior and it's okay to say that. Okay, fair point. But part of me is also going.

Are you being clear enough with him that he's out of control without calling him crazy? Are you giving him too much latitude? This is a delicate line to walk. But beyond that, what you guys really need to talk about is this deeper stuff. Why he's using in the first [00:20:00] place, why he can't seem to stop. Where this fear and paranoia come from, why you respond the way you do.

What trusting you brings up for him, what his chaos is doing to you. Otherwise, you're just gonna be playing out the same script over and over again. And obviously that's only possible when he is somewhat calm, when he is upset. I would not try to have this conversation. I probably would not even engage honestly.

And maybe you say, look, I can see that you're worked up right now. I can understand why. Cocaine, other stuff too. Why don't we take a little time to breathe and we'll talk about this when we calm down. Because fighting back or trying to have a deep conversation when he's activated and potentially intoxicated, that's probably only gonna make things worse.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah,

Gabriel Mizrahi: I don't know. Honestly, I just don't see a relationship improving until he gets sober. He clearly can't kick this addiction on his own and getting cold Turkey. Look, some people do it and more power to them. It's incredible, but it's hard. At a minimum, I think he needs to be working some kind of program, whether it's a 12 step [00:21:00] program or smart beating or whatever it is, and if he can get into a detox and or a rehab center, inpatient, outpatient, whatever it is even better.

I don't know what the specific resources are in your area, but there are almost always free services. There are sliding scale services. There are services covered by insurance. If Adam can fund a cocaine habit and apparently afford the planes, trains, and automobiles to go from seasonal job to seasonal job, I think he can probably find a way to afford three day, a five day detox to start.

When he's ready to find help, there is a way to get it. I'm not saying it's gonna be a walk in the park, but when you're truly ready to make a change, things do become doable. The question is though, is he truly ready? My sense is no. No, he's not. Based on what we're hearing,

Jordan Harbinger: I'm with you. Hi. His resistance is shame.

His self-concepts, there are two great right now for him to go, holy cow, I need help. That is why many addicts have to hit what they call rock bottom or several rock bottoms. 'cause those are the moments that shock a [00:22:00] person into going, oh, okay, I'm in trouble. I can't deny it anymore. I need to face things.

And those moments are profound. He just might not be there yet.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And his defenses. Man, they are strong. It's possible that he'll never hit it. Or if he does, it's gonna be really bad and he won't know how to respond to it. I guess I, I just really want you to understand this, and I know it's hard to take in, but this is so essential.

Adam is in charge of his recovery. He's in charge of his mental health. He's in charge of the trajectory of his life. You can help him, you can support him, you can love him, but you cannot save this guy on your own. And nothing you do will make a lasting impact until he is ready, at least somewhat, to confront this stuff, to confront himself.

So the real question of your letter, in my opinion, isn't so much, what more can I do to help? But why am I so invested in saving this person who doesn't seem to wanna accept my help? Why am I trying so hard to help? And at what point do I stop? Because, yes, Adam is wrestling with a serious addiction, but I think you [00:23:00] are wrestling with a serious addiction too, and it's kind of an addiction to Adam.

To the life that you really want to have with him if you just work hard enough. This is kind of one of the main ideas of Al-Anon. Al-Anon, if you don't know, is the support group for friends and family of addicts, and there's this idea that they talk about a lot, that if you are in a relationship, whether it's a friendship or romantic relationship with an addict, then your behavior has also become compulsive, and you are emotionally dependent on the addict's choices and that you're often very enmeshed with the addict.

And so much of your identity and your experience of life is shaped by their illness.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Al-Anon also talks a lot about cleaning up your side of the street, which means focusing on your behavior, your thoughts, your healing, not the addicts, which again, you're already starting to do and you deserve a lot of credit for realizing that on your own.

But you and Adam are still very wrapped up in one another.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I would really check out an Al-Anon meeting or a Nar-Anon meeting. It's the same basic idea. I think this meeting, [00:24:00] even if you go to 1, 2, 3 meetings, you'll get some incredible stuff outta them and it could be a revelation for you

Jordan Harbinger: for sure. I've actually been to a few myself this meeting.

It's gonna give you some great tools to respond to Adam. It'll give you a new lens on your relationship and it'll put you in touch with other people who are dealing with the exact same thing. It's powerful. Please check out this meeting. You can even drop into a virtual one to start and see how it goes.

They really can change the game for you. I went just for an awareness sake. Some guys from my company were like, Hey, check these things out. And I was like, all right, fine. I went with a friend and I was like, oh, I get it. Okay. Now, when I recommend this, I'm not just talking about something I read about on the internet.

Look, candidly, I'm very concerned about you staying in this relationship. I'm touched that you care about this guy. I'm sure there are some objectively sweet and meaningful things about your relationship, or you wouldn't care so much. This guy is beyond lucky to have you on his team. He deserves love and support, but not at your expense.

You have enough information now to know how Adam operates, how [00:25:00] serious he is about getting better. So it's time to start considering whether this relationship is truly healthy and sustainable. I'm gonna be very blunt with you. I think it would be unwise and potentially quite dangerous to stick around if he doesn't take steps to getting better very soon in parting ways with Adam, A, it doesn't necessarily mean it's the end of the road.

That might be what forces him to seek treatment, although I want you to be very thoughtful about how you leave, if that's what you decide to do. Because Adam, look, he's unstable, he's potentially violent. And again, I'm worried about you. Come up with a plan, find a friend who can help you make sure you're safe.

'cause this might be messy. The bottom line is time to come back to your side of the street. If you do that, you'll know what to do. Sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best. Man. This is a tough situation. You really are watching somebody you love. Just flush themselves down the drain and you can't stop them.

Now grab your mirror and razor blades 'cause we're about to chop up some pure unadulterated deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this [00:26:00] show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb. I gotta give a shout out to Brian McDonald, who listens to the show in absolutely hooked me up in Vietnam Recently, Brian runs a taste of Hanoi and I had this layer of in Hanoi, and he's like, I got you.

Set me up with one of his guides for a motorbike food tour in Hanoi, which is awesome. Now, if you've never been in the back of a motorbike in Vietnam, it's something man, you're weaving through scooters and traffic like a video game where you can actually die and then all of a sudden we're inside someone's house.

Literally inside we rode the motorbike. I, I'll tell you here, here, the guide pulls into what looks like an alley. Okay? But it turns into a hallway and then he turns around grins and goes, okay, put your hands on my shoulders. Duck your head down, pull your knees all the way in. The next thing I know, I.

We're riding through someone's living room. Not even kidding, like actually someone's living room to get to this little courtyard kitchen where this auntie is making fa. That'll just ruin your life. No fa will ever taste as good. And Vietnamese egg coffee upstairs on the balcony. I don't even know how to describe it.

It's like tiramisu and espresso. Had a beautiful caffeinated baby. Short trip, [00:27:00] chaotic, absolutely incredible. And I can't wait to go back and bring Jen next time because I know she's gonna love it. And next time we'll put our place on Airbnb to help fund the adventure you can too. Airbnb makes it super practical.

It doesn't take a lot of effort. You set it up before you leave, and then boom, your house is earning money while you're on vacation and making memories. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host. This episode is also sponsored by Better Help Therapy. Used to be this thing people only talked about in a whisper.

It was a last resort. Thankfully, that has changed. Now we understand that taking care of your mental health is not some sign of weakness. Just like you go to the gym for your body therapy is how you strengthen your mind, and we could all use a little help dealing with the life's chaos. That's why I think Better Help is doing something important here.

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Visit Jordan harbinger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to feedback Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Alright, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a manager at a plant in the US and I've recently been put on a team that will be consolidating production and reducing the workforce by 50%. This isn't a huge surprise as we can see the workload slowing down and we're building equipment in Asia where we [00:29:00] sell over 80% of our product.

The problem is that we had a record year, $15 million over plan the largest year our company has ever had. We just got off of a leadership meeting where they touted this and told us to take this information back to our team. I can see other people on the consolidation team pretending as if nothing bad is coming, even lying or dodging questions that get asked about our site.

I've signed a confidentiality agreement, so I have to keep quiet. Of course, I'll follow the agreement. This is my job first, and bringing home a paycheck is key. But when all this goes down, people will know that I was part of this team and realize the shadiness of my last two to three months. I've worked so hard to gain the trust and respect of my team and others in the organization, and I feel that'll be crushed.

It's eating me up inside. How do I navigate this? Knowing the fate of many people I care about? How do I look people in the eye when they ask me tough questions? Signed. Trying not to drown when I can't share the lowdown, [00:30:00] 'cause heavy is the head that wears the crown.

Jordan Harbinger: Yikes. Yeah. This is tough. I feel for you, it's a position I imagine most managers find themselves in from time to time, stuck between doing right by their people and doing right by the company and management, not being very thoughtful about how good news like this $15 million over plan thing, how that's gonna square with doing a huge round of layoffs in three months and then you're left holding the bag emotionally.

The fact that this is eating you up inside, that you wanna take care of your people. I think that says a lot about you. A lot of good things. He's a good dude. Yeah. It would be easier to do what most middle managers do, which is basically just turn off your emotions. Say whatever you gotta say. Hide behind the idea that you're just doing my job.

So your struggle here, I think it's a sign of your character, but here's how I'd approach this. First off, I think it's important to remember that you didn't create this situation. You are just managing it. Is that fair? No. Is that the reality of the world we live in? Yes. Like you said, your company is signing your paychecks.

[00:31:00] You signed a confidentiality agreement. It sucks, but that is how the game works. Also, you described what you and your company are doing as shadiness and Yeah, I can understand why, but all companies need to make certain decisions with a degree of secrecy. So yeah, it sucks that they're saying, yay, we're killing it.

Go tell your team and then quietly putting in place an offshoring strategy that's gonna cut half the jobs. But also companies are allowed to do this. They might need to do it in order to satisfy shareholders and all that. And yes, we can complain about the system, but that's not what we're talking about here in this question.

So I would be clear about what piece of this is yours and what piece of this isn't yours. It's not on you to toss and turn every night because of your company's decisions, but that doesn't let you off the hook for treating your people well through all of this. So when your employees ask you tough questions, I would still try to be as honest and empathetic as possible within the limits of your role and that confidentiality agreement.

I wouldn't take your favorite people aside and say like, Hey, listen guys, [00:32:00] shit's about to hit the fan. Go dust off your resume. But if people ask you, Hey, is our plant safe? Are we in trouble? Maybe you have to say, look, I understand the concern. There's always a degree of uncertainty in every company at this moment.

There's no big news that I can share, but I'm always here to support you in any way that I can. Something like that. I know it's a little awkward, but look, it's true. You're not spilling the beans, but you're not lying either. And you're acknowledging the uncertainty and tension instead of telling your own version of the lie, which is, eh, everything's hunky dory.

It's gonna be fine, don't worry. And then just body slamming, everybody without warning.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I like that. The script, not the body slamming everybody without warning. And if some of his employees read between the lines of what he's saying or if this is interesting because he said that it's very clear that 80% of their business is in Asia and certain trends are moving in that direction.

So they should also maybe be doing some of their own math. And that's an interesting question, like which employees? Figure out how do the dots connect. But also if they pick up on some subtext in this little script that you just shared, which is also kind of a skill, [00:33:00] I think he's still okay. And then he might also help them without doing anything wrong.

Jordan Harbinger: And maybe that's his way of taking care of his people while still towing the party line.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, exactly. It is a delicate dance though, isn't it? 'cause there's a version of that script that you know, he delivers with a wink and a nod. And that wink and a nod could end up being the same as saying, yeah, half of you are screwed.

I don't know which half. So start updating your LinkedIn profiles. I'm not saying he shouldn't be

Jordan Harbinger: thoughtful about how he delivers this. But if his employees do pick up on something and word spreads about layoffs and his bosses come to him, like, what the hell man? Did you tell your people what's happening?

He's gonna wanna be able to say, absolutely not. They asked me if everything's okay. I didn't reveal any details. I feel like that should be his guide here. What he would want to be able to defend if he had to. The other thing I would do is keep investing in your relationships. Even if you can't tell your people what's coming, you can be a solid leader, you can be a supportive colleague.

You can listen to your team's concerns. You can advocate for them where you're able, you can help them build new skills. You can give them endorsements and recommendations. You can [00:34:00] subtly prepare them for what is next.

Gabriel Mizrahi: And when these layoffs do go down, you can treat them well, you know, compassionately, and you can communicate this decision in a way that's kind, and you can look for ways to help them land on their feet.

All of that is totally under your control.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly the way you treat these people in a time of uncertainty. That's what they're gonna remember, not just the fact that you are on the other side of the table. And while you do that, keep investing in your relationships outside the company too. 'cause you never know what's coming.

Not to make you even more anxious, but you're seeing how a big company operates. There might be a world where you are looking for a job down the line as well, maybe just not in the next 90 days. So everything you'd hope your subordinates are doing without you telling them, I would do that yourself and create your own safety net.

And after that, you have to accept that there's a lot you don't control, including people's feelings. Some people on your team might still be upset, some of them might feel betrayed. No matter how well you handle this, and you might be the obvious target, you are gonna have to tolerate all of that and then forgive yourself.

Not because you did something wrong, but because this [00:35:00] is part of being a leader in a complicated situation. And your empathy, your thoughtfulness, your communication style, all of those are gonna be real crucial skills here. So hold onto those and hey man, I'm sorry this is happening, but I'm also happy that you get to build some new muscles.

As a leader, it's good experience. It won't be the last time you have to walk this line. We're rooting for you and your team. Good luck. You can reach us friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in the mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, your neighbors, or eaves dropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or your friend ruined your girl's trip by obsessing about food and reading every restaurant menu.

She could get her hands on whatever's Got you staying up at night lately. Hit us up friday@jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, our newsletter, if you haven't signed up yet, come and check it out. It's called Wee Bit Wiser. It is a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you delivered to your inbox most Wednesdays.

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Gabriel Mizrahi: All right, what's next? Dear handsome boy, number one and Captain Hot Yoga. I have a lifelong best friend who's going through the worst luck I have ever seen over the last few years.

I've helped them through a series of medical, mental, family, and financial crises, 90% of which are legitimately beyond their control. I'm not their only support, but I am a significant part of it. Whenever one of these crises happens, it becomes a life or death situation, which is stressful, scary, upsetting, and exhausting.

My nervous system gets completely shot, and over the years, I don't feel like I've gotten even close to recuperating between issues. The stress level feels paralyzing even when these issues aren't actually my problems to solve. But I'm not the type of friend to cut and run when things get [00:37:00] tough. This friend really needs their people right now, and if they did kill themselves because of a crisis I didn't try and help them with, well, the toll of that would be astronomical.

I know everyone says, oh, set boundaries and they're not your responsibility and you gotta look out for yourself. I don't disagree, but the advice I always get is so black and white. Basically leave your friend to solve their own problems, as if that's a good outcome for anyone. How do I keep helping my friend through the toughest time in their life without it breaking me too signed, filling my chalice without being callous?

Jordan Harbinger: Great question. And something so many people, all of us, at some point or another struggle with, you're not alone there. I. So first of all, you sound like a really solid friend. You obviously care a lot about this person. You're kind, you're loyal, you're generous with your time and energy. Your friend is very lucky to have you in their life.

At the same time though, this friendship is clearly taking a toll on you. This is a lot [00:38:00] for anyone to take on and the role you've been playing for this person, whether it's necessary or not warranted or not, I think you know that it's unsustainable. I also think deep down that something isn't quite right here.

Yes, 90% of these crises are legitimately beyond their control, like you said. Although candidly, I have my doubts about that. Not that somebody can't be the victim of objectively crappy luck or go through multiple hardships at once. Of course they can. But if someone's going from serious crisis to serious crisis for literally years.

And it's always like a life or death situation. I think there's usually something else going on, something they can probably control, at least partly. And if it's not in preventing the crisis itself, then it's in managing it or responding to it in a way that's more helpful.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes. Including how they rely on the people around them.

People like you.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. But let's put that aside for a moment. Let's assume that this person really is the victim of objectively bad luck stuff. They have zero control over. I would still argue that something isn't quite right here either. This person is [00:39:00] depending on you for far too much, asking far too much of you and or you are taking on far too much for this person taking on their own crises personally at your own expense.

And I'm gonna guess it's a little bit of both. So let's talk about boundaries for a second. You obviously understand the concept. You say you agree with the idea in principle, but in your view, the idea of having boundaries, it sounds like it's black and white, rigid, simplistic, basically leave your friend to solve their own problems or dive in with both feet.

That's not exactly what boundaries mean in practice. What boundaries actually allow you to do is be there for people without compromising yourself. To support them without losing yourself. To leave enough room in the relationship, for them to still have agency, to not rob them of the opportunity to solve their own problems and manage their own lives.

Having boundaries doesn't mean abandoning a person. When they're struggling, you're not watching them drowning, going shut up. Pack some floaties. By having boundaries and managing those boundaries well, which is just as important. It's about being in a situation with somebody and not confusing [00:40:00] yourself with them, or taking on the situation yourself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's also about adjusting those boundaries over time, always revisiting them. Dr. Margolis is really big on this. She's taught me a lot about this aspect. Boundaries with some people. In some circumstances, at certain moments of your life, you might get super involved with other people in different circumstances.

When you maybe don't have as much time or energy or they respond in a way that changes things, maybe you don't get as involved. Or your involvement changes depending on the quality of the relationship, the nature of the challenge they're going through, what this person is expecting of you. There's no one template here, but it can evolve over time, and that's part of what is confusing about boundaries, but that is also what makes them effective, that they can change.

Jordan Harbinger: My sense, just based on what you've shared with us, is that you feel boundaries are very blunt. They're very cut and dried, that they're about cutting yourself off from people or cutting yourself off from your feelings about them. But I would argue that's not really what good boundaries are about.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yes.

One of the best things I've learned about boundaries [00:41:00] over the years, I think I've shared this on the show before, boundaries, when they're handled well. Are actually what allow us to be close with people.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, exactly. You need that line to be in a truly intimate, high functioning relationship with someone,

Gabriel Mizrahi: and that is what she struggles with.

Like she said, if this friend, for example, killed themselves because she didn't try and help them, the toll would be astronomical. And I'm so glad she included that word in her letter because she's already onto the problem here. What she is doing for this friend and the stakes of not playing this role for this person are so high.

Now she's responsible not just for solving this person's problems, but for literally keeping them alive.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I mean, it is a fair question. How do you learn to stop doing that? Because for some people that's really hard. I think it's really hard for her.

Gabriel Mizrahi: The first thing you have to do, I think, is trace this back to its roots.

I can almost guarantee that our friend here played a crucial role in her family system in some way. Propping up a parent, taking care of a sibling, managing a chaotic home, something like that. We tend to learn these things [00:42:00] very early on, and then we carry them forward for so many reasons. Because it's familiar, because it's gratifying, because it just is too distressing to think about not playing that role and helping other people.

I think we talked about this with Adam, right? Sometimes it can secure love or closeness or it gives us a sense of being needed, powerful, whatever it is. I think it's usually a handful of common reasons, but everybody's story is unique. Again, so hard to diagnose on a podcast, even harder to heal. But just seeing the roots of this impulse and where this message came from, that is half the battle because once you go, oh, I had to prop up dad in my whole childhood.

Now I'm locating dad in this person. Now I'm over here keeping my buddy Ethan sober and bailing out my friend Jessica for the eighth time and whatever it is, rewriting my boyfriend's resume for him, because he refuses to do it himself. When you see that clearly, it is a lot harder to wanna play that role unconsciously, right?

You're at least more aware of it, which

Jordan Harbinger: makes a big

Gabriel Mizrahi: difference, all the difference in the world. And after that, it's about just slowly [00:43:00] trying things in a new way and rewriting the rules of those relationships, and that really means bearing the discomfort of not stepping in and saving someone the way you used to, in your case.

That will require you to sit with some feelings. I think probably guilt and probably sadness, that you're not showing up for this person the way that you used to, which is very normal. It might also mean sitting with the feeling that. You know, you might be mean or selfish, which to be clear, you are not.

But when you define being a good friend or a good person as sacrificing yourself to save somebody over and over again, anything less than that can feel cruel. It's not, but it feels that way, and you have to be willing to sit with that feeling in order to find out that it's not really the case. But until we're willing to endure that basic distress, we'll never know what's on the other side or why it's there, or whether there might be a better way to partner with your friends to help them.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, you might find that distress isn't actually as bad as you think, or it is bad, but it's survivable and it's not [00:44:00] actually a sign. You need to be responsible for this person. It's just a part of your conditioning. Also, you don't know if this person would actually hurt themselves. If they're not suicidal, then this is just your mind going to the worst case scenario.

If they ever did hurt themselves, then it's time to embrace another difficult truth, which is that you are not responsible for keeping anyone else alive. Full stop. And the moment you feel that you are, that's a sign that you have to take a step back and remember what's yours and what's theres, and how this dynamic got created in the first place.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah. I also think sometimes that when we imagine that somebody might do something really extreme if we're not there to save them, I'm speculating a little bit, but I do have a hunch that maybe. That can be a way to inflate our importance in their life. If I am so crucial to this person that if I'm not there, they are gonna do this terrible thing.

And they might not actually do that. They might struggle, they might hurt, but it doesn't mean that the stakes are life and death. She said that her friend goes to that [00:45:00] place when they're in a crisis. Everything is life or death, but she's kind of doing that too.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I also thought it was interesting when you said that having boundaries means leaving a friend to solve their own problems.

As if that's a good outcome for anyone, I would argue that it actually is a good outcome. And if it doesn't look like a good outcome, you know, if your friend completely drowns when you pull back or you suffer disproportionately, I. That is not a sign that the boundary is wrong, but that you guys are adapting to a new way of being and relating to each other, which I would argue is probably a healthier way and will hopefully lead your friend to taking better care of themselves.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. Which kind of brings me back to my original point, which was I think there's a good chance that your friend is not showing up to their life in the best possible way. I have a ton of compassion for anyone who's struggling, but if it's true that your template is taking on other people's stuff, I think it's likely that you're finding people who are looking for people to take on their stuff.

I'm not saying they don't need help. I'm not saying they don't deserve help. I'm saying a high functioning relationship is when both parties have a good grasp [00:46:00] of what that help should look like, where to find it, how to make the best use of it. So that's where I'd focus. This is not about cutting and running.

This is about putting yourself in the right relation to this person and inviting them to do the same. Not so you can be more distant, but so that you can be sustainably close. Good luck. Now en mesh yo self in the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

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Alright, back to feedback Friday. What's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dear Jordan and Gabe, I work for a large international company. My background is in operations and hr, but I was recently asked to lead a small team within the marketing [00:50:00] department that handled non-employee contracts. I told the leader that I didn't have experience with contract or vendor management, although I did understand the nuance of contractors from an HR perspective.

I was told that the team was from a procurement background and would handle that side of the work, and my role was more around team management and helping the department change its strategy around contractor usage. I took the job and was successful at working with the team to make changes to the contractor program.

Then my company was hit with a large layoff and restructuring. Because of the smaller team size, I now directly manage contracts and vendor relationships. I'm also expected to do work similar to the other procurement managers, such as creating negotiation and cost saving strategies, whereas before I focused on organizational change and reducing legal risk, I feel so out of my depth.

Procurement is a very different profession with its own lingo, skillset, and perspective. I'm trying to learn, but my workload has [00:51:00] massively increased and I'm struggling to keep up. It feels like I'm trying to acquire a whole career's worth of knowledge and experience. I'm also worried about asking too many questions and potentially getting fired.

Though I fear that might happen anyway if I can't achieve the things that this department wants. I've put out feelers with my network for a new job, but my husband is currently unemployed, so it feels important to try to make this job work at least until he's stable again. What should I do to make this new role manageable?

What would you do if you found yourself as a genuine imposter? Signed avoiding missteps and protecting my respect when I am totally outta my depth.

Jordan Harbinger: Another great question. So first of all, I'm very sorry to hear that your company's been through this turmoil recently. Layoffs are stressful, they're ugly, and as you know, they can create a lot of chaos, a lot of uncertainty.

I'm glad you made it through though, especially since your husband's between jobs. That's a gift. So let's just take a moment and be grateful for that. The bright spot in all this is, first of [00:52:00] all, your company on some level must have trusted you to do this new role, or they wouldn't have put you in it. So that's already a vote of confidence.

And even if procurement isn't what you wanna be doing, that's a great learning opportunity. You're gonna be thrown into the deep end, you're being exposed to another part of the business, you're meeting new people, you're learning a new language and skillset, and it's really, that's terrific. I have a feeling that once you're in your new role here or somewhere else, you're weirdly gonna look back on this chapter and go, man, that was weird, but I learned a ton and I have more to offer now.

So try to keep that in mind When things get stressful, this is how you grow. But the thing about growth is it always comes with some degree of imposter syndrome always, because you can't grow if you're not being stretched. And you can't be stretched if you're not doing things you don't know how to do yet.

So this fraudulence you feel it's stressful, it's unpleasant. It's a little scary. I totally get it. It's also a symptom of being challenged, and it's not necessarily a sign that you're failing. Even high performers feel like frauds a lot of the time. In fact, [00:53:00] they usually feel it the most because they're usually pushing themselves beyond their current abilities.

So the question isn't, how do I get rid of this imposter wisdom? The question is, how do I work with it and how do I succeed even when I don't quite know what I'm doing? So let's get tactical for a second. The first thing you gotta do. You gotta really embrace what I just said and make peace with the fact that you don't entirely know what you're doing and just trust that's okay.

Like I said, your company put you here. So my guess is they understand there's gonna be a steep learning curve, but even if they didn't, you personally need to give yourself some time and some grace as you learn this new lingo and skillset and perspective, which also includes just giving yourself some time.

I think you're gonna be shocked by what you can handle in another month or two. Now I know you're overwhelmed right now, you're drowning a little bit and I get it. These transitions, they can be a lot. Part of this is just being willing to hang in there and tolerate the intensity of this learning curve until you get a handle on things.

But you can also do a few things that'll help. One of them is finding one or [00:54:00] two safe people on your team you can turn to when you're lost. I would find a colleague who's cool and generous and isn't gonna hold it against you when you don't know what you're doing and go to them when you're like, what does tail spend mean Again?

How do you create a procure to pay process? And if you're wondering how I know those procurement terms, I did just Google it and I did just use the only two examples like understood. And I'm definitely not studying Gabe's former management consultant face to see if I'm totally outta my depth right now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, it was very impressive. You fooled me for a second. I was like, did you work in procurement? Great. Are you in Wall Street?

Jordan Harbinger: Passing as a corporate person with a consultant is like pulling off a magic trick for another magician. Double compliment right there. The point is, sometimes all you need is one or two peers to just get up to speed on stuff, but.

I would be thoughtful about how you use these folks. I would not pepper them with 37 questions throughout the day. I wouldn't ask them questions that you can answer yourself or at least start to answer. I would develop a few key habits like batching your questions, and then when you can grab 10 minutes with your friend, you just run through them all in one go using chat, [00:55:00] GPT or Google to answer your questions.

Trying to learn as much as you can on your own. I have a feeling AI would be an amazing tool to help you grow right now, especially when it comes to just learning the lingo, developing basic skills. You could literally type explain the procure to pay process to me like I'm five years old. Maybe 10 years old, and it'll probably explain it perfectly.

It might even be able to do part of your work for you, which is kind of wild. Welcome to 2025. At a minimum, it'll be a great first step when you are totally lost, and then if you still need somebody to help you, you won't be going, Hey, can you explain this entire concept to me from first principles? So I read up on this concept.

I get the gist of it, but I just need to ask you a couple of questions so I can finish this deck. Very different conversation, asking for help without becoming a burden. There's an art to that. These folks are gonna appreciate your resourcefulness, your thoughtfulness, and that's gonna make 'em wanna help you even

Gabriel Mizrahi: more.

You know, when I worked in consulting, this was one of the main skills that I had to learn more than Excel, more than PowerPoint, more than you know how to talk in a meeting and all that. Just how to learn quickly [00:56:00] and make it look mostly effortless and not require more than is necessary from other people.

It is such a great skill to develop. But it does come with a fair amount of imposter wisdom because the reality is you are pretending, right? You're pretending that you didn't just learn what a procure to pay process was 10 minutes ago, right? You're pretending that you've been speaking this language for years.

So part of the art that Jordan was just describing is being able to perform well and just to tolerate that healthy fraudulence. And that means owning your knowledge when you have it, and also knowing when not to talk when you do actually need help. It also means getting comfortable using new skills when they're still a little shaky.

You're learning on the fly. There's an aspect of performing in all of this, playing the role of somebody who knows what they're doing, and then realizing along the way that you actually do know what you're doing. Also, as long as she's at this company, and she might need to be there for a little while until her husband finds a new job.

It is definitely in her interest to perform as well as possible, even if this is not what she wants to be doing. And [00:57:00] then she can tell that story to hiring managers, which is a great story. By the way. They stuck me in this random department. We went through layoffs. Suddenly I was in charge of all this stuff that I knew nothing about, and I thrived.

I achieved this and this. They're gonna love that, and then she can leave this company if she wants, with a great recommendation and a solid reputation.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly. She has so much to gain by kicking butt in this department, even if she decides she hates the work and she wants to leave. Although it's funny, when you start doing well at something, it gets way more fun.

So who knows? Maybe you'll surprise yourself. Maybe you're in the middle of building this unexpected talent stack, which is HR plus procurement plus organizational change. Maybe in six months you'll be the expert on how to help companies manage all the transformation around changing their vendor contracts or whatever.

That is so valuable, especially if you tell that story well. The cool thing about a talent stack, I've talked about this before, it doesn't require you to be a rock star in every layer of the stack. You just need to be moderately good at all of them, and then the whole is greater than the sum of its [00:58:00] parts.

So that's how I'd handle being a genuine imposter. That's sort of healthy, fraudulent scape. Mentioned a moment ago. That's a very different kind of imposter from the, oh crap, I have zero clue what I'm doing. I should not be here. I'm actually doing damage. By being in this role, you can overcome that imposter wisdom too.

But it's different from just having to fill in some gaps in order to do the job. I also want you to check out the deep dive we did on imposter syndrome. It's a great crash course in how to overcome this stuff, and a bunch of interviews and feedback Fridays we've done on this topic. We're gonna link to all those in the show notes for you.

You've got this. We're rooting for you. Good luck. Alright, now for the recommendation of the week, I am addicted to lip filler. My recommendation this week. Quest Protein chips. Quest Nutrition is the company that makes them, yes, they're protein chips. I know that's kind of weird, but they're essentially.

Whey protein chips with flavor sprayed on 'em.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Dude, you are fully in your meat head era. I know. That's incredible. Yeah, I really am. Like I'm jumping [00:59:00] rope. It's bone density. Bone density and protein chips, bro. Protein chips.

Jordan Harbinger: It's true though. Here's the thing, protein snacks are usually gross. Like we're only a few years from when protein bars were the most disgusting thing you could put in your mouth and now you've got like really good protein bars.

But now I'm kind of sick of them. 'cause it's also a variant of chocolate and sometimes you want something savory and crunchy and you're like, oh crap, the only thing I have are Cheetos. Those aren't good for you. These protein chips are basically, yeah, it's like a flat whey protein thing with barbecues sprayed on it or ranch sprayed on it.

And the flavors are good, so they're snackable. Even if you're like, I don't need more protein. They got 19 grams of protein per bag, which is pretty awesome. I recommend trying all the flavors. Most stores like Target carry some flavors, but not all. You can order 'em online. I really love these things. Jen loves these things.

There's bags in the car. There's bags in her bag. There's bags in my office. I just feel like I do one a day and they're kind of guilt free, right? Because they're not loaded with fried trans fatty stuff. It's [01:00:00] just more whey protein. So crunch your weight to bigger biceps. I don't know.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Yeah, get those

Jordan Harbinger: gains, bro.

You can't just jump rope. You gotta feed those muscles too. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show. If you wanna jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes or about your favorite flavor of Quest protein chips, that's over on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

If you're a redditer, just search for Jordan Harbinger and you'll find the subreddit right there. Lot of people from the show, a few thousand people in there. Really kind of a fun distraction, and we'll see you there. Alright, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe,

Gabriel Mizrahi: my adult child recently moved 1700 miles away, and I find myself experiencing grief that feels like it will never go away.

She has a high paying job and bought a home and a state with more affordable housing. A starter home in my state is around a half a million dollars. So naturally my son is also planning on moving outta state within a year as well.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's a lot of change. I'm sorry you're hurting Bay Area and me is going 500 K for a starter home and that's considered expensive.

I was about to say, damn, that sounds nice. But yeah, that's besides the point. I guess. I know it's all [01:01:00] relative, but damn. Yeah, you die. If you saw what the housing market is like in Northern California, holy smokes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Instead of feeling pride, I feel overwhelmingly sad. I gave everything I had to my two children.

Every decision I ever made was for their wellbeing. We just finished paying for five years of college for each of them. I had children in order to extend my family. I feel cheated because seeing someone for only a few days a year does not feel like family to me. My husband and I have been devoted to our own parents over the years, being primary caretakers to parents with dementia and cancer.

We also never wanted our parents to feel lonely in old age, so we made a point of visiting them. Frequently. It seems like we will have no one looking out for us as we begin to age. I look forward to seeing my daughter each year, but when those few days arrive and I'm in her presence, I feel grief stricken and find myself choking back tears after she leaves.

I find myself crying for days. I'm practicing self-care, expanding my social life, [01:02:00] all of that, but it still hurts. How can I get over this? Move on emotionally, stop feeling let down? How do I think differently about this situation without lying to myself signed? Can't stop crying because my kids are thriving.

I.

Jordan Harbinger: I wanna start by saying, I really feel for you, my friend, so many parents must feel the way you do. I think my parents felt this way to a certain degree. I was an only child. So you can imagine how strong that bond was, and there's a lot of grief in being a parent. I'm a dad of two young kids now. I.

There's already a lot of grief, happy grief, but grief nonetheless, just in watching them grow up so quickly to raise two children, to support them, to have a certain vision for how their lives might look, how your relationship will look. And then for them to leave the nest and go a totally different way.

Yeah, that could be very painful, especially when you've done things differently with your own parents. So my heart goes out to you. It really does. And I feel like I can't use that phrase anymore, Gabriel, because of the whole Elon thing. Wait, what is this? Oh, [01:03:00] you didn't, you don't know about this. So you know about his quote unquote Nazi salute, whether it was a Nazi salute or not.

Yeah. So he put his hand on his heart, and then he did like a, yeah, controversial. You knew a little

Gabriel Mizrahi: Nazi

Jordan Harbinger: salute a little bit. Yeah. And people were like, on his team or whatever, were like, it was, my heart goes out to you. Oh, got it. That's what that meant. I

Gabriel Mizrahi: forgot about that. So we can't say that on the show now.

No. I mean, that's ridiculous, right? Elon Musk is killing people's jobs and our ability to empathize.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes, that's right. The Department of Government efficiency doesn't want any more empathy and feedback Friday. That's one. Their top priorities.

Gabriel Mizrahi: No, but you're in a position to understand what this woman is going through, I guess, in a milder way, so your heart does go out there.

I'm sure I get it. My heart actually

Jordan Harbinger: does go out to her in a very non-controversial way, Nazi way. Yes. I don't know if there's a world where parents watch their children set sail without a healthy amount of sadness. That sadness is partly an expression of the love you feel for them. I get it. At the same time, I can also understand your kids' decisions.

These practical things, like being able to buy a home. They're important. I get it. And [01:04:00] moving to another state, we don't have all the facts here, but maybe that's important to your children for other reasons. Maybe it's part of their individuation. They're healthy separation. Maybe it's more aligned with their dreams.

Maybe they need to go off and be their own people for a while before settling back in your home state or getting to a point where they can visit more often. So I really get both sides here. Your best bet in my view is to make room for multiple feelings here, multiple perspectives. To hold this grief, you feel alongside your acceptance of your children, your excitement for the lives they're building, your pride and their accomplishments, their independence, and to recognize that your children's goals and priorities are just as real and valid as yours are.

Sometimes what makes our feelings painful is that they're the only feelings we're in touch with, the only ones we can identify with. But if you can empathize with your kids here a little more, all of this might hurt less. If you can do just that, even if your stance doesn't change, I think that'll help a lot actually.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Oh man. [01:05:00] Jordan, I am having a weirdly strong reaction to this letter. Yeah, tell me. I don't know. It's just like, okay, look, I'm with you. I feel for her. I'm not a parent, so I don't know what this is like myself, but I can only imagine how sad and complicated it must be to have children and raise them for 18 years or more, and then I.

Watch them go off and do things differently. You know, she is in the middle of a very intense transition right now, so I get it.

Jordan Harbinger: I don't have to deal with this for another 12 plus years, maybe longer. I'm already kind of dreading it. Jen's dreading it too. She's, oh, one day she's not gonna like me. When Juniper's like, mommy, I love you so much.

I wanna snuggle. She's like, oh, I love you. And I'm like, yeah, wait till she's 12. And she's like, I hate you. Yeah. And Jen's like, no, don't tell me that.

Gabriel Mizrahi: It's very emotional. Okay, I get it. But to be totally honest, I'm struggling with some of the assumptions in her letter. I don't blame her for having them.

I'm sure a lot of parents have them, but let's just talk about a few of them. In her view, she gave everything she had to her children. She did everything [01:06:00] for their wellbeing. She and her husband paid for their education. She said she had children to extend her family to have children who would remain close by and be with her all the way through old age.

And now that they're moving away her daughter anyway. But apparently her son soon will too. She's basically saying, Hey, that wasn't the deal. The deal was I give you everything and then you repay me by living your life in a way that satisfies me in a way that makes me feel loved in a way that makes me feel appreciated in a way that makes me feel safe.

Damn. Yeah. That is kind of what she's saying. Look, this might be my own bias here, but I just don't think that's entirely fair or healthy. I don't know if it's right. If the implicit deal was that our kids stay close by then, this wasn't all for their wellbeing. It was at least partly for her wellbeing.

Yeah. And now that they're adults, her children wanna pursue their own authentic lives, their own goals, and her daughter is apparently very successful and has bought herself her own home, which is a huge accomplishment in this day and age. That is something objectively to be very proud of, [01:07:00] but it sounds like then she has to pay a huge price for it in the form of her mother's sadness.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I see that. To be fair, I don't think she's trying to do that. In fact, she's trying to do the opposite to keep her grief at bay. But yeah, I take your point.

Gabriel Mizrahi: So yes, I agree that she's not actively trying to guilt her daughter as far as we know. She is asking us like, how do I change my lens on this situation?

She's trying to do her part. It's not malicious and I appreciate that, but whether she intends to or not, her daughter probably does have to carry that around to some degree. It's hard not to know that your parent is in pain and disappointed. But what really makes me sad about this is it's not just getting in the way of her kids' happiness.

It's also getting in the way of her happiness, right? Like instead of feeling pride, and again, she has so much to be proud of here, her daughter is impressive. Her son probably also awesome. She only feels this sadness because she can only experience her children's independence and success as a loss to her as an abandonment.

And I just think that's kind of a shame because a big part of being a parent of [01:08:00] older children is yeah, grieving the loss of the childhood. But another big part is celebrating them, right? Celebrating them for individuating, to your point, delighting in their growth and their evolution, having fun watching them chart their own path.

But if you only view their leaving through the lens of you're reneging on our deal, and that is not why I had you, then everyone loses.

Jordan Harbinger: No, it's a fair point. I think as apparent, I'm a little more compassionate to our friend here, but I'm taking in what you're saying and I'm thinking about how I wanna be when Jayden and Juniper go off to college, move out, travel the world, whatever they decide to do.

And I think the answer is I wanna be more excited and proud of them than sad and resentful that they're going away, or at least I wanna be able to hold both. She's working with another assumption here that I think we need to touch on, which is the idea that seeing someone only for a few days a year doesn't feel like family.

She feels cheated again. I can appreciate why she feels that way. I don't know any normal parent who wants less time with their kids, but it also sounds to me like her definition of family is very narrow, very rigid. [01:09:00] If they don't have a ton of contact, they're not really family.

Gabriel Mizrahi: But again, she is choosing to think of it that way.

To some degree,

Jordan Harbinger: she's clinging to one definition of what family is. And to your point, Gabe, that is preventing her from having a full relationship with her kids, even when they live in separate places, which let's acknowledge is totally doable. It's different. It requires more work, but it is doable.

Gabriel Mizrahi: I agree, by the way, so weird for me to be the person who's getting worked up on feedback Friday.

Yeah, no kidding. I feel like our roles have totally reversed. I'm not trying to be mean, but. Who is really cheating? Whom here are her kids cheating her by moving away? Or is she maybe cheating herself a little bit by defining family this narrowly and not finding ways of staying close with her kids even when they live apart.

Jordan Harbinger: Good question. Something I would definitely encourage her to consider. Also the way she and her husband have cared for their parents is obviously playing a big role here, and that's another assumption I would encourage her to look at whether her kids need to treat her and her husband the exact same way as they've treated their parents [01:10:00] in order to truly love them or whatever.

Gabriel Mizrahi: Just a question. I will say, despite everything I just said, I do understand her anxiety about who's gonna look out for us in our older age. That is a valid fear. And all aging parents deserve attention and support, obviously, but I'm with you. She has a lot of beliefs and judgments wrapped up in that fear.

Jordan Harbinger: Also, she and her husband are not in need of constant care, so she's getting upset about something that has not yet come to pass and is already holding that against her children. And if she wants her kids to care for her the way she did with her parents, she could be channeling that anxiety, in my opinion, in more productive ways by having an open conversation with their daughter and soon their son like, Hey, look guys, now that we're living in different states, we're a little anxious about who's gonna look after us as we get older.

We just wanna know that when we get to that point, you're gonna be there in some way. And it would really put us at ease if we could talk about it. That would be one way to start the conversation. I like that. Or our friend and her husband could stay open to different situations, like for example, eventually moving to the state their children live in once [01:11:00] their own parents are gone.

I'm not saying they have to, or that's even the right solution for them, but it is an option. Although I would also encourage you to talk to your kids about that. 'cause that's something you want them to want to not like, Hey, I'm moving down the street and it's, oh God, I moved two states away and now mom's moving down the street.

There's other concerns here. Potentially

Gabriel Mizrahi: you're getting into something that I'm now thinking about. The more we talk about this letter, I wonder if their daughter's move to another state, was actually a really important move for her. I'm secretly harboring the same suspicion. I'm speculating. I could totally be wrong, and our friend here might not enjoy hearing this very much, but given this view of parenting, you know, I do all this for you and then you live the rest of your life the way I want.

For me, I guess I wonder how their daughter feels about that, has felt about that her whole life. And I do wonder if moving states was a way to create perhaps some healthy distance from her parents to assert herself a little bit. Like you said, Jordan, she's individuating and maybe rewriting this arrangement in addition to the fact that housing is more [01:12:00] affordable.

Honestly, Uhhuh, I would probably do the same. And this grief that mom feels, there might be a few different strands in there. I think it's possible that she's not just grieving the relationship with her kids and this life phase, she might also be grieving the ability to dictate her children's lives. Or maybe another way to put it, she might be grieving the loss of the easiest strategy to avoid her own loneliness, her anxiety, her fear.

Which was ensuring that her children, she created always stay close.

Jordan Harbinger: Wow. Yeah. I think there's possibly some truth to that and that's compatible with loving her children. But you're right, there are a few layers to this. The fact that she's in such distress is a sign that it's time to investigate these feelings more deeply.

So the answer isn't to just get over this or move on emotionally, and I don't think you can just stop feeling let down or lie to yourself. Your better bet is to invite these feelings in, allow them, but get way more curious about them, which also means getting curious about the beliefs that underpin them.

'cause [01:13:00] oftentimes it's these beliefs that give rise to the feelings, and then they make the feelings even more intense. What I would be working toward is a way to enjoy as much of all of this as you can. Your kids can be independent and loving towards you. You and your husband can be largely on your own and cared for.

Your family can be close and geographically spread apart, but the ands are only possible when you stay open. If you cling to your own ideas too strongly here, all you're gonna get are os and creating os. That's a good way to create more grief for yourself. Sending you, your husband and your kids a big hug and wishing you all the best.

Go back and check out the episodes with the one and only Drew Carey and Sean Williams on meth and human trafficking and making money for the regime in North Korea. Two very different, very interesting episodes for you to check out if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network.

The circle of people I know, like and trust. We did some business networking layoff question earlier today. I should have plugged six minute networking.com. It's a free course. It's not schmoozy, it's not gross. You can [01:14:00] find it on the Thinkific platform. This is the stuff I wish I knew 20 years ago, especially during my layoff from the whole legal industry thing.

Dig that well Before you get thirsty, folks build relationships before you need them. You can find the course again for free@sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts are on the website, advertisers discounts. Ways to support the show are at Jordan harbinger.com/deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My amazing team is Jen Harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty. Ian Baird, Tadas Sidlauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own.

I am a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing things you hear on the show. And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next [01:15:00] time.