415: Should I Dodge a Debt to the Mafia? | Feedback Friday

Transcript for Should I Dodge a Debt to the Mafia? | Feedback Friday (Episode 415)

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. As always. I'm here with Feedback Friday producer Gabriel Mizrahi. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most brilliant people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. We want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker. So you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening, sometimes even inside of your own mind.

[00:00:36] If you're new to this show on Fridays, that's today, we give advice to you. We answer listener questions. The rest of the week, we have long-form interviews and conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies, CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers. Now for a selection of featured episodes to get you started with some of our favorite guests and popular topics, go ahead and go to jordanharbinger.com. We'll hook you right up. You can reach us at friday@jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. You can try to include a descriptive subject straight line that helps us filter everything. Get it into the right episode of the show. It makes our job a whole lot easier.

[00:01:13] By the way, a lot of people have been asking questions about feeling stuck, not knowing and what to do first or not knowing what to do next. I think that's pretty common Gabe, now that we're in sort of COVID land where every day seems the same. A lot of people are feeling like they don't know what to do as their next move. Action forces prioritization. So if you are stuck deciding between options and you're weighing the pros and cons and making the old list doesn't quite work for you because you're still torn. Force yourself to act in one direction or the other. Just do it, just do something. You can only act on one thing at a time, most of the time. That means that you have to make something the top priority. And it doesn't matter if you get it wrong. If it's sort of 50/50, even if you pick wrong at the end 20/20 hindsight, you've learned something.

[00:01:59] This comes from my episode with Freeway Rick Ross. Now, he didn't say this directly. This is episode 121 of The Jordan Harbinger Show — Freeway Rick Ross. He was a drug dealer in the '80s. He made about a billion dollars in today's money, slinging crack in LA, a very, very, very smart and gifted entrepreneur. Unfortunately, he used it to sell crack, but such were the times. He was brilliant at prioritization. You get that through the stories that he tells. Again, that's episode 121, we'll link that in the show notes. That's what I'm thinking about this week.

[00:02:31] As always, we've got some fun questions. We've got some doozies. You know, I hate to say this, Gabe. I get a lot of feedback about Feedback Friday, and I've said this before I think these are the most popular episodes of The Jordan Harbinger Show, by the way. I could have Kobe Bryant on here, which we did and it still will not rival in terms of downloads and popularity, The Feedback Friday episodes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:02:51] Wow, I did not realize that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:52] Oh yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:02:53] I didn't know that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:02:53] These are by far the most popular. They get about 10 percent, 15 percent more downloads than any other episode. And I'm always surprised because I'll have somebody like Ray Dalio on the show and I'll go, "This is going to crush," and it does. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:03:05] Yeah. Everyone wants to know about how to invest to make a ton of money. Right? No. We want to hear about your bipolar grandmother.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:12] That's really — and that's the thing it's like — when people tell me what their favorite episodes are because I always ask. They're always like Feedback Friday. Or they're like, "Yeah, I liked Mark Cuban. I like this, but I also love Feedback Friday." And I'll go, "What is it about Feedback Friday that you really like?" And people will say, "Well, if I'm being perfectly honest, it's that I listen to these questions," and they'll say like the nice sort of PC version of the answer. They go, "Well, you and Gabriel, you really give good answers to a lot of complicated issues and very nuanced advice." And I'm like, "Cool. Why do you really like it?" And they're like, "Eh, well, if I'm being perfectly honest here, times are tough right now. I'm going through a divorce, whatever it is." And they go, "I'm just glad. That I'm not dealing with all of these issues that you deal with on Feedback Friday.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:03:52] Oh, man, damn.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:03:53] Not each individual person, but people write in with some heavy-duty stuff and I'm glad we can help them with it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:04:00] Yeah, they sure do.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:01] But for everybody who's like, "Man, I didn't get that promotion this week." It's like, "But at least I'm not being hunted by the mafia," which leads us to question one. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:04:11] It does. I would say that probably — and I totally agree with that. I get it. I totally get that. I think underneath that, there's probably something else which — I sound like I'm answering a Feedback Friday question, right — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:21] You do.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:04:22] Right now.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:23] Right now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:04:24] But what I was going to say was just that I think when you read these questions, even if it's not a situation that you are in personally, it's hard not to find a little piece of yourself in it. I feel that when we answer these questions, you know, somebody will talk about having a schizophrenic uncle and, "How do I keep my child away from him. And he makes me feel out of control and scared." And I'm like, "You know what? I don't have that uncle, but I know what it's like to be scared."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:46] Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:04:46] Like, you know, you can relate to it on that level. And I wonder if that's another reason people gravitate to it. I know that's why I like doing it. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:52] I think so. I mean, look, people used to — do you ever listen to Loveline when you were young?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:04:55] Of course, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:56] Who didn't, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:04:56] It's part of my childhood. Yeah. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:04:58] Me too. I had the great honor of doing a couple of episodes of Loveline with Dr. Drew and Adam Carolla years ago. And even now I go on Adam and Drew, which is kind of the new incarnation of that. And they're always like, "Oh, what do you want to talk about?" And I'm like, "Can we take callers, please?" And they're like, "Yeah, sure. You want to go the easy route and take callers." I'm like, "The easy route? This is the best part of the show."

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:05:18] Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:18] Like who doesn't want to talk about their own crap when they go on Adam Carolla and Dr. Drew to promote your stuff? Fine. I want to hear from the general public who's like, "Well, I got fired because I was on pills at work." "How long have you been on pills?" "13 years." I mean, this is like real human stuff. And I think the reason that I like doing Feedback Friday and that I love doing The Jordan Harbinger Show is because Dr. Drew, especially, and Adam Corolla, of course, basically said, "Hey, there's a whole lot of real people out there that are talking about sex, relationships, dating, drama, life stuff, and not only do we all have that in common, but they're all problems that we can get through if we have like good friends, good relationships, good advice — 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:05:58] Totally.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:05:58] — a strong head on our shoulders. And I'm like, this makes a difference in people's lives. Anyway, that got way too heavy way too early. Anyway, question one.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:06:06] Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm writing in because I think my father-in-law took a large loan from the mafia.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:06:14] You all thought I was kidding, didn't you? When I said that, "At least, not being hunted by the mob," that leads us to the question. People were like, "Oh, he's not really going to —" Yes. Yes, we are.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:06:19] Yes. That's what's happening.

[00:06:21] I'm writing because I think my father-in-law took a large loan from the mafia. I'm an American living abroad in Eastern Europe with my wife who's from here. We got married three years ago and I moved here permanently. I can understand quite a bit of the language, but I can't speak it very well yet. I get along well with my wife's family. Her father was a condominium developer in the lead up to the 2008 crash and made quite a bit of money during that time. When the crisis hit, he lost his shirt. His business is insolvent and he is broke. While they still live together, he and his wife got a divorce to protect their house by putting it in my mother-in-law's name. For the last 10 years, unbeknownst to us, he was still taking deposits on new units that currently sit half-finished. The people who paid him have organized and are taking legal action with charges pending. What's most worrying is that he took a large amount of money, likely more than a hundred thousand dollars from a man who's involved in organized crime and the majority of the debt is still outstanding. On a few occasions, men came to my in-law’s house, making subtle threats of violence. Other people we've talked to told us that the police don't even mess with this man, which fits because they were very dismissive when my father-in-law went to them regarding the harassment. We only started learning about these transgressions a year ago and all of this predates meeting my wife. I've never felt pressured to give any money. Not that I have much to give in the first place. The people who made deposits know that I'm American and assume that I have millions of dollars to pay them with which, of course, I do not. I don't care that those people think this is, but this guy — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:07:48] You better. You should care.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:07:50] I don't care that those people think this but if this guy does, then he may come after me or my family. We live in a bigger city, a few hours away, but it still would not be hard to find us leaving the country wouldn't matter because my wife's family would still be here. Any advice you have as welcome as I have no idea how to handle this. I'm just a simple guy from the Midwest. Thank you guys for your balanced and insightful feedback every week. Signed, Swimming with The Loan Sharks. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:08:13] This is a huge mess. This is really bad. You know, I was looking at this and I see — for the last 10 years unbeknownst to us, he was still taking deposits on new units that currently sit half-finished. So your father-in-law has committed a financial crime because he clearly never intended to finish these units. If he hasn't built, it's been 10 years, the people are paying him. He's still taking deposits. He's trying to dig out of a financial hole, but where's the money. The other thing is he took money from somebody involved in organized crime and the majority of the debt is still outstanding. Why? Where did the money go? Also, Gabe, he says other people we've talked to told us the police don't even mess with his man, which fits because they were very dismissive when my father-in-law went to the police regarding the harassment. If you take a loan from the mob and then you go to the police, why are you surprised? That's what's most worrying about this? I didn't even really think about this before, but if you're going to the cops and you're going wait though, cops don't even care that I'm being harassed by these Mafiosi that makes me even more nervous for this guy, because that means that his father-in-law didn't really know what he was getting into when he took the loan. Does that make sense? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:09:24] Yeah. They're like problems piled on problems. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:09:27] Yeah, like if I'm in LA and I take a loan from — I don't know, the Korean mob or something like that. And then I'm like, "Hey, these guys are really messing with me." And you're like, "Oh man, that sucks." And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm going to go to the police." That means that I think the police could actually help me. But this guy is surprised to find — the father-in-law, not the writer. This guy is surprised to find that the police are not interested. That means that he thought, "Oh, I'm just going to take a loan from this guy, but they're not going to bother me. Hey, get off my lawn. I'm going to go to the cops." 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:09:54] The other thing that stands out to me about that is that it takes a lot for a criminal to want to go to the police. I mean, the moment you go to the police explaining that you're in a bad situation with some mob-connected guy, you're opening up a whole can of worms about what you did or what you did to attract that, or why they're on your ass or how you started dealing with them in the first place. So that must mean that this is pretty scary to him if he's trying to get the police to help him and he has his own stuff to hide. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:10:18] I think so. I think the guys that came to his office to threaten him must be more scary. Because look, if I take a loan from the mob — and the reason I picked Korean is because there's some Korean organized crime in LA, but that's beside the point. If I take a loan from the mob and then they send people to bug me, I go, "Okay, part for the course, look, I'm working on getting your money." That's clearly not what happened here. If I take a loan from the mob and somebody comes in and scares the absolute living crap out of me, then I go to the cops because I have no other option.

[00:10:48] That's what makes me think. They didn't send guys to come over and go, "Hey, you look, you owe Mr. Berezovsky a few dollars. You know that, right? All right. We'll see around." That's not what happened. This was not as subtle as that. They must've scared him half to death. He's going, "Look, the only option I have is to go to the cops." This is redline breaking point. If this is already here.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:11:08] Yeah, good point.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:11:09] I'm worried about the guy writing in here. I'm worried about swimming with the loan sharks because first, you're an American living in a foreign country and Eastern European country, nonetheless, the police, the legal system, not usually, shall we say, as reliable as they are in other places. You're settled there permanently. You can understand the language, but you can't speak it. That's a liability. You're an outsider. And unbeknownst to you, your wife's father has been engaging in some serious criminal behavior and has debt to the mob. Now, some dude named Ivan is showing up at your in-law's house threatening them and thinks that you Mr. American moneybags over here, you can foot the bill. And I know that he says, "Oh, I don't care. If the other people who are organizing legally, I owe them money or that I have money." You should care because that perception is probably shared by everyone. And even if the organized crime guys, like, "You know what? He doesn't have any money." They're unscrupulous. They're going to come after you anyway. You didn't see any of this coming.

[00:12:06] It's serious. It sucks. I'm sorry to hear this. It's the most extreme example I've heard of, "You don't marry the person, you marry their family." It's mind blowing — 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:12:15] Good point.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:16] — and you're in trouble.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:12:17] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:18] So I don't mean to make light of this. I know we're joking around a little bit, and I know the situation is complicated, but my advice is pretty simple. And it's basically this — and I've asked my friends in the FBI, I've asked friends that I know that have organized crime connections. They're like, "You got to get out of there."

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:12:31] Wow.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:12:31] These are people that have connections to organized crime and they're like, "Get out of there." Talk to your wife about your options, game out, all the possibilities, including the worst-case scenario, which I think we can agree is that they come after you and your wife personally, possibly using violence. Find somewhere feasible but safe for you, even if that place is temporary. Go there as quickly as you can. And I mean like this weekend. Pack your crap and leave. The more time you take planning and moving and getting a U-Haul and getting all that together, the more heads up these guys have that you're about to bounce. So I would pack everything that you want to keep in bags and go. I would mail stuff ahead of time and just get out of there.

[00:13:18] My hope would be that you can come back to the States, which sounds far enough away. Organized crime if it's serious enough can reach you anywhere, unfortunately, but there are plenty of countries that are great to live in and probably safer for you. Probably European ones that are still close to your in-laws if you don't want to go too far. And yeah, I know that you said leaving the country wouldn't matter because your wife's family would still be there and I get that, but that does not mean that you and your wife need to stay. He didn't mention any kids, Gabriel. Thank goodness for that because I think that's even stronger vulnerability. That's never going to go away.

[00:13:53] In fact, I think staying would be putting yourselves in unnecessary danger, possibly taking on the burden yourself. A life-threatening burden, I might add, of your father-in-law's decisions. Don't do it. This is not your problem to take on. I'm not saying it's not your problem. Wash your hands of it. I'm saying you can't take this on. In fact, your father-in-law made his bed and even he shouldn't have to take this on, but he's the only one who can. This is not something you want to put yourself in front of.

[00:14:20] And look, I know it must be sad to think about leaving your in-laws right now. Your wife's not going to be happy. She's going to feel very conflicted about that. It's her parents. Her father made these choices. Some of them deliberately criminal and some of them just grossly negligent, reckless, and he has to live with the consequences of those choices, including the fact that you two probably have to leave.

[00:14:40] I know also it's probably daunting to think about moving somewhere else after making — what I can only imagine is a huge move to Eastern Europe, but given everything you've shared, it doesn't sound like there's anything safer, not right now anyway. Gabe, what do you think? Should he cut ties with the family? I mean, what's going — this is a fricking disaster. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:15:00] Oh man, yeah, it's a disaster. Seriously, I am sorry you're in this situation. I know it must be a super tough call to make and honestly, pretty freaking terrifying. I'm just terrified reading it and thinking about your situation. Jordan, when I was a kid, we lived next to a guy who was connected and he was pretty terrifying, not to us personally.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:19] Really.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:15:19] He was actually super nice to me and he and his wife would like to have me and my sister over for Haagen-Dazs ice cream parties at his house and give us presents from FAO Schwarz for Christmas and stuff like that. But to everyone else, yeah, he was probably the boogeyman. So that's a true story, by the way.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:34] Wait. Connected to what? Italian mafia? Jewish mafia?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:15:37] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:38] What? Did he have an accent? Like a cool one.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:15:40] Kind of, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:41] Was he Italian? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:15:42] Yeah. I'm trying to think about how much I should say about him.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:44] Yeah. You got to be careful. You're no longer a young kid with your FAO Schwarz Teddy bears.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:15:48] I think there's probably no big risk of talking about it. He was so cool to us and he was kind of like half in and half out. He wasn't like full Goodfellas.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:15:58] Okay.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:15:58] But that's a story for a whole other time. One day, we'll unpack that whole thing.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:03] Fair.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:16:03] Anyway, again, not trying to make light of it. I'm just saying I can appreciate how scary this is. As for cutting ties, I think that is a call that he's going to have to make. Unfortunately, this type of criminal behavior, it does tend to follow people in life. It will stick to his father in law for a long time, maybe forever.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:18] Speaking of which, let me cut you off right there. Did you ever cut open the Teddy bears he gave you for Christmas? Because there might be something inside that's more valuable now than you knew before. I'm thinking when you cut it open and there's like a bag of diamonds in there. "Hey, hold onto this kid. Don't throw it away. You know what I mean?"

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:16:33] "Don't do anything with it."

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:33] Don't donate this. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:16:35] It would be great if I still had it like on my shelf.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:37] Yeah, it might come in handy for school later. If you know what I'm saying? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:16:40] Oh my God.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:40] Yeah. Continue.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:16:46] I'm having flashbacks of the Haagen-Dazs right now. I'm just trying to think.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:16:49] Yeah, good ice cream. You know Haagen-Dazs doesn't even mean anything? I was like, what does this mean? Oh, it's like Danish for delicious. No, it means nothing, zero meaning.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:16:58] it doesn't mean like cream of the field or something. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:01] No, it's not even European. It's American. They made it up to sound European because they knew people would buy it.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:17:06] Well that just ruined my whole childhood. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:08] Yeah, you're welcome. There's also nothing in the Teddy bear. Continue.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:17:11] Picking up from literally the last sentence I said before we got to Haagen-Dazs.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:17:16] Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:17:16] As long as his loan sharks and his victims, see you as connected to him, or just think of you as some kind of red, white, and blue ATM, this stuff could stick to you too. So as painful as it is, I think there are some good reasons for you to cut ties with your father-in-law. Like Jordan said, that'll probably be a lot harder for your wife than it will be for you. This is her dad after all. But you will have to help her see the very real danger that he has put you guys in if you decide to do this, and it will be up to you to decide what cutting ties actually means. It might mean that you don't talk to them at all, or it might mean that you don't visit the house anymore or get involved in their affairs. You will have to use your judgment about what the situation requires. But my instinct is that it probably means ceasing all contact, at least for the time being, because things seem pretty hot right now.

[00:18:01] If you do stay in touch with them though, just be aware of the risks that you're taking. Your calls might be monitored. Your emails might be — I don't know, hacked, intercepted. Their family friends might slip details of your whereabouts to these loan sharks if they make it worth their while. Who knows? People like this will go through a lot of trouble to get their money. And if you don't believe me, listen to Jordan's interview with Jack Garcia, the undercover FBI agent who infiltrated the Gambino crime family. That's episode 392, by the way. We'll link to that in the show notes. And I do not mean to freak you out. I just want you to know who it is you're dealing with. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:18:32] One thing I will say is it's not necessarily only about the money. So if you're dealing with organized crime, they can't be seen to be avoided, talk down suckered in any way. So even if you were to just cut a check right now, it might make it go away, but then they might go, "Oh, look at this guy. He just cut a check. I know you got this from your son-in-law. Look at the wire transfer. I got my guy at the bank. He said it came from you." So they might go after you, even if you help them. Also, if he drags it out enough, they might be like, "Oh, well you owe us some money for your trouble after all this," because they can't be, he's seen to lend money to somebody. And then that person doesn't pay back on time and then nothing happens.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:19:13] Good point.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:13] It's a different world, right? So this is bad for you, no matter what. You pay it off quick, bad because now you're a red, white, and blue ATM as you so eloquently said. And if they pay it back over a really long time, because you don't or aren't able to help them, then it's like, "Well, you can't just pay us back. What the original deal was. You took too long."

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:19:32] Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:33] Now, that's a problem.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:19:34] Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:34] It's just not good — 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:19:35] It's kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:19:36] Yeah, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. There's probably a delicate way to handle this. I'm not able to figure this out. Like I said, I asked organized crime figures and experts on this exact subject and FBI agents. And they were like, "Eh, just leave, just get the hell out of there. It's not your problem. You can't make it your problem." 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:19:51] Yeah. And to that, I would add that one tactical thing you could do to keep yourself safe is to hire a privacy expert. This is somebody who can scrub your online presence or help you keep a low profile online. I'm not sure what the Eastern European privacy scene is like right now, but I'm sure there are good people who can help you if you need to fly under the radar. One thing I highly recommend is to stay off social media. No Instagram selfies and it means no clever tweets from freaking Bucharest or wherever you are. Just do not do it.

[00:20:17] I would even delete the apps from your phone, honestly, since they track location and social graph. I know that seems super obvious. A lot of people keep using social media when they do not want to be found and guess what they get found, super easily. I actually think that's how they found El Chapo. Right? It's that how they figured it out?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:32] Yeah, that's actually how they found El Chapo in part. Didn't they track Sean Penn — 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:20:38] In part, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:039] Well, first of all, they track Sean Penn. So there's that. If you're a known criminal, so never meet up with Sean Penn. That's one rule.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:20:45] Just take that option off the table.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:47] Take the off the table right now.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:20:48] No A-list Hollywood actors.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:20:50] The other thing is — didn't they find him because El Chapo's son who clearly is some kind of genius was like, "Hey, hanging out with you know who," and just tagged him and had his face in the photo. And they were like, "Okay."

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:21:01] Yeah, Something like that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:21:02] We're going to go ahead and ask Instagram where this photo was taken again. And then they just surrounded that place and busted him. Now, he dug his way out in the shower or something after that. But yeah, basically somebody can blow up your spot if people want to find you enough, social media, not that hard.

[00:21:16] My other piece of advice is surprising to report this to the authorities, not the police in Prague or wherever you are. This is from Robin Dreeke who has been on the show. I asked, "Hey, look, what do we do?" retired FBI, by the way, "Do we report it to Interpol, the embassy, all of the above." Yes, you report it to the United States embassy. They're not going to be able to protect you necessarily or do anything, but the odds that organized crime locally is connected to the FBI or intelligence agencies in the United States Embassy is pretty minimal and at least you're going to get evidence of, "Hey, this was reported to us." And if they get wind of any threat against you, you're an American citizen, and it's in a file somewhere, they might go, "Oh, okay. We should probably warn this guy, he lives in the United States now with his wife or he lives in Germany now with his wife," whatever it is. It's just another layer of protection. You don't have to keep that secret. I would say, make it well known to the family that you've gone to the embassy and made damn sure. Now, they can do what they want with that information. Also, write down everything that's happening to you along the way. This is going to be critical for your records. If you ever need to talk to the authorities, your lawyers about this down the road. Or write a book about the whole thing. Gabe can write the movie based on it. Everybody wins.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:22:29] Good looking out, Jordan. I appreciate that. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:22:31] Yeah, you got it. The bottom line is you have to go. You can always change your plan down the road. Maybe the situation will resolve itself. Maybe things will calm down once he gets paid if that's ever able to happen.

[00:22:42] But if you sit around wondering what the right move is, I'm afraid you're going to find yourself in a basement in Belarus or something like that. And I really — well, probably not Belarus. They have other problems to worry about. I really don't want that to happen to you. I'll quote Carmela Soprano here, since it feels appropriate, in Season Four, she said, "More is lost by indecision than by wrong decision." And in your case, I think that might be dead on.

[00:23:07] Germany, my humble opinion. It's very close to Eastern Europe. It's a great place to live. Just remember that any place convenient enough for you to go and visit from Eastern Europe on a weekend is convenient enough for Eastern Europe to come and visit you as well.

[00:23:21] Option B, you can make a deal with the mafia to pay them off. Again, like I said, that might be even more dangerous and put you in the line of fire. But if you do it piecemeal over time and you do it through your father-in-law, you got to have your father-in-law make the offer. Not you. He has to say that he's borrowing the money from friends and family. Do not put yourself between organized crime and your father-in-law under any circumstances. Good luck, man, really. Let us know what happens. I am dying to know. Sorry for the choice of words.

[00:23:54] You're listening to Feedback Friday here on The Jordan Harbinger Show. We'll be right back.

[00:23:58] This episode is sponsored in part by HostGator. Why don't you have a website for your personal or professional projects? Are you worried? It might be too distracting from doing things you do best and you hate the thought of wasting time building and maintaining something that's frankly not in your wheelhouse. Don't be a hater. Trust HostGator. You don't have to know the first thing about tech or the intricacies of web design, because HostGator covers all that. So you can focus on the things that are important to you, and thanks to HostGator's ludicrous generosity every plan provides you with limitless bandwidth, disk space, and email addresses. And if you're like 30 percent of the web, you're going to want to use WordPress to power your site. HostGator has the tools to make it as easy as putting butter on your breakfast toast. Additionally, you're guaranteed 99 percent uptime, 24/7, 365 support, and a 45-day money-back guarantee if you aren't completely satisfied. Visit hostgator.com/jordan to get up to 62 percent off. That's hostgator.com/jordan.

[00:24:49] This episode is also sponsored by better Help. I love therapy. I feel like everyone should do it like I've said before. It doesn't matter if you're sane as hell or stone-cold crazy therapy can do you some good. Better Help counselors are experienced with everything — they're hearing it all of these days, anxiety, grief, relationship stuff, self-esteem, family conflicts. Sometimes that's just one color. Additionally, if you live in a small town, you might not be able to find a local therapist because there might be like one and it's your uncle. Better Help, it's all online. It's all on your phone. You fill out a questionnaire, you get matched in a couple of days, video sessions, phone sessions, unlimited chat, text, whatever you need, everything's confidential. And if you don't like your counselor switch at any time, no additional charge. You can't really say that about your family, can you? Join a million-plus people who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced Better Help counselor. And they're busy over there. They're recruiting in all 50 states. 

Jen Harbinger: [00:25:38] Better Help is an affordable option. And our listeners get 10 percent off your first month with a discount code JORDAN. Get started today at betterhelp.com/jordan. Talk to a therapist online and get help.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:25:50] And now back to Feedback Friday on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

[00:25:56] All right, what's next?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:25:57] Hey guys, last year, our daughter suffered from a medical accident. The hospital tried many protocols to activate her brain. Nothing worked. Ultimately our son-in-law had to make a decision to terminate life support.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:08] Oh God, that's horrible. During this time, my wife and I received an outpouring of support. However, I'm trying to help my wife get over something that she can't get past. A woman she considered a good friend — I'll call her Leslie was communicating with my wife via text. We were far away from our home. Our daughter was an organ donor, which required scheduling the end of life support. On the day my son-in-law scheduled it, Leslie sent my wife a text saying, "Did they pull the plug yet?"

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:34] Cringe. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:26:35] My perspective is that Leslie isn't very self-aware and didn't realize how insensitive the text was. Months later, this issue along with many other issues still bothers my wife. Her friendship with Leslie is nearly dead. How can I support my wife and how she feels about Leslie and guide her through these challenging times? There's much more involved than simply pulling the plug. Signed, Trying to address this SMS Mess.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:26:58] First of all, I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter. This is incredibly sad. And I'm sorry that you and your wife and your son-in-law went through that. I'm sure it was unimaginable. I hope you guys are holding up okay. When you experienced loss this big, I just can't even imagine anything bigger than losing a child. When you experience a loss like that, it must be hard not to take a comment like that personally. You're basically one giant wound when you're grieving and somebody makes a clumsy remark and it could feel so hurtful even intentionally hurtful, even if it's not. As a parent of a one-year-old cannot imagine the pain involved in this. I think anything that was even slightly askew or outright insensitive like this comment really was, it would just rub me so raw.

[00:27:44] I think you're right. Leslie probably didn't mean anything by that comment. I guess she was probably freaked out struggling to find the right words to ask her wife anything, and then just came right out with the only words she could find in the moment. And unfortunately, those words were, "Do they pull the plug yet?" which I think we can all agree, you could have worked on that a little, Leslie. Come on. I understand her reaction. I do your wife's reaction. I think it's gross. Was she trying to be cruel to your wife? Was she hoping to make her feel worse? I doubt it. I doubt it. I think she was just being tactless, and as you put it pretty un-self-aware. And if this is a pattern with her, then it's just par for the course. 

[00:28:24] Not to get too heady here, but your wife's reaction to this text message is really an interesting example of a common cognitive bias. And it's called the fundamental attribution error. We did a whole article about this. We'll link to it in the show notes. It's basically the tendency to explain other people's behavior in terms of their character or their intent, rather than explaining it in terms of circumstance. Or to put it even more simply it's the tendency to believe that what people do reflects who they are as people. We all have this negative bias, by the way. It's not a personal fault or anything, but that's why we got to catch it when it pops up. We did an article. Again, I'll link in the show notes.

[00:29:05] So here's Leslie, she wants to know the latest about your daughter and she has no idea how to ask about her status. She's not great with language. She's not an empathetic person. Maybe she's dealing with her own stuff this week. So instead of calling your wife, she fires off this brief text while driving to Safeway. Your wife reads it and goes, "Freaking Leslie, how can she be so callous? Why would she talk to me like that? She must not care how I feel at all. She obviously doesn't appreciate how much pain I'm in. And she's a terrible friend." Now, your wife's mad at Leslie. And can you blame her? I don't.

[00:29:37] But in reality, there are a lot of other factors at play here. There's Leslie struggled to communicate. There's the limitations of texting in the first place. You can't hear her voice. You can't see her face. You're only judging her based on the words. There's the other stuff Leslie was dealing with that week. She fought with her husband. She's got drama at work. There's some fear about how to support your wife in this moment. Who knows what else? None of these things are a reflection of who Leslie is as a person. They're just a bunch of other variables that really have nothing to do with what she meant or how she feels about your wife. Those are the factors that led her to send that text. But when your wife interprets the text through the lens of the fundamental attribution error, the only thing she can conclude is, "Well, Leslie's the kind of person who just doesn't care how I feel." And that's the story that her mind wants to tell the most. It's making an error in how it attributes the text to Leslie's most fundamental personality. So that's why it's called the fundamental attribution error. And just like that friendship over.

[00:30:39] Gabe, enough for my nerding out on this one. How can this man support his poor wife and how she feels about her former best friend?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:30:45] I would continue talking to her about her relationship with Leslie and keep that door open. I would validate the hell out of her feelings about this, even if they're not the full story, her anger, her frustration, maybe her sense of betrayal. The feeling that her friend is not really there for her, she doesn't care. I would validate those feelings and not dismiss them. She's clearly feeling them very intensely. Also, she's grieving. You're grieving. The fight with Leslie is amplified by all that grief. I would imagine. You've got to give plenty of room for that. Help her see that losing your daughter has probably made her extremely vulnerable to things like this, which makes perfect sense. And I would help her put those reactions into some perspective, make her see that the way she responded to that text is as much about her interpretation as it is about Leslie's intention.

[00:31:30] And then when you feel like she's ready, you can help her consider another way of looking at things. You can invite her to imagine what it must've been like for Leslie. You know, how in the middle of that week, that weird week that Jordan was talking about given her limitations, given what was going on, how hard it must've been for her to send that text, how scary it probably was to watch her best friend lose her daughter. I'm trying to imagine what Leslie was going through. I think that helps a little bit. How she probably misses your wife now and doesn't know how to reach out. I mean, there's so much going on here. You don't have to excuse what Leslie did and you shouldn't, but you can help your wife see that she probably didn't intend to hurt her. And Leslie's worst crime here really was being thoughtless. I think you're right that is absolutely something that she could work on.

[00:32:07] I think what you really want to encourage your wife to do is talk to Leslie. Just have a conversation with her and hash this stuff out. I honestly think that's the biggest source of conflict at this point. Your wife needs to have a chance to explain to Leslie how hurtful that text was. And Leslie needs a chance to explain to your wife that she did not mean to word it that way. It's just the way it came out. They both need to listen to each other. They both need to work on the things they need to work on. Leslie, on her tact, on her self-awareness. Your wife needs to work on her tendency to personalize and hopefully, they can come back together. And if they do that, they might actually be better friends than they were before. Because it's not the conflict that's keeping them apart at this point, it's really the lack of communication.

[00:32:46] If it's appropriate and your wife is open to this, you could even offer to facilitate the conversation. You could have Leslie over for breakfast, something like that. You could be the neutral third party who asks them questions, gives them an opportunity to hash it out. I would try to frame this conversation as, "I know this past year has been really difficult for all of us. I know that this is really hard to talk about. But I also know that your relationship means a lot to both of you and I want to give you guys the chance to talk about this, so you can figure out what happened and see if you can resolve these feelings. So you guys don't lose a great friendship over nothing." I think that's a really nice way to set the stage. It'll make them feel safe to get it out there in the open.

[00:33:20] If your wife refuses to participate in something like that, which again, she might be so angry that she doesn't even want to go there. Then you could call Leslie up and just talk to her directly. You could tell her how your wife is feeling, and you could encourage her to call your wife and talk about it. That way you're not in the middle of the two of them, but you are helping facilitate the conversation behind the scenes. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:39] This is a shame. I understand why it happened, but yeah, it's a shame. My guess is Leslie just doesn't even realize how the text landed for your wife.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:33:46] I agree.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:47] Or if she does, she's too embarrassed and afraid to address it directly — 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:33:51] Yes.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:33:51] — because she doesn't even have the social acumens to do so. That's totally something that can be overcome. I've got kind of maybe some friends like that. I hope you overcome that. I hope they overcome that. Friends are really important, especially at times like this. So it is a shame to end one over a text message, even if the text was insensitive, which it was.

[00:34:08] Sorry, I'm a little flustered during this question because I can only — as a parent, now you unlock this part of your brain/heart that just can't even imagine how horrible it is to lose a child.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:34:20] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:21] As cute as babies are, like as cute as Jayden is at one — when you have an adult child, it's like a more fully formed person and it's probably even worse. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:34:29] If his wife feels the way you do, which I'm guessing she does. Having gone through this insanely traumatic and big experience, then that would be a really good thing to share with Leslie.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:37] Yeah.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:34:37] Just as a way of making her understand why it landed the way it did. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:40] I'm tossed up by this. I can't even — Jen would be — she'd never recover from this somehow. Never is a long time but I mean, she'll just never be the same. And I would never be the same. So I can — by the way, I'm sorry for your loss. We're talking about his wife and the friend, but he didn't even mention himself.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:34:57] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:34:57] I wonder how you're dealing with this. You wrote it in and you asked about your wife. How are you dealing with this?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:35:01] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:02] You don't have to answer the question. You don't have to say it by email with an update on you but you should make sure that you are also dealing with this in a healthy way — because just, again, I cannot imagine the toll that takes on someone psychologically. I'm so sorry. All right, question three. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:35:16] Hey guys, I'm currently a full-time employee working in the blockchain industry. I'm 30. I have no outstanding debt, no mortgage, no kids, and plenty of savings. I have been curious since 2011 about the culinary arts and the idea of pursuing more craftsmanship related work, but it has always materialized as a hobby. In my current career, I work when I want very reasonable hours. My time is mine and I have lots of it. I work where I want. I'm well-paid. I'm learning skills that are scalable to other business opportunities and I'm in a field that is considered the future. If I were to shift to more craft-related work, I would probably — 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:49] Blockchain, right? That field is blockchain. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:35:52] Yeah, that's right. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:35:53] I mean, it's debatably the future. As Harri Hursti said on the show, it's a solution looking for a problem, but you know, I don't understand it enough to argue the point.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:36:02] Hmm, I wonder if that would factor into a decision that he's trying to make. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:04] Eh, probably not. I mean, if you work in blockchain right now, you're probably not going to go, "Eh, this is a cool trend, but never going to be anything."

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:36:10] Good point.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:36:11] And also what do I know? Like it's, they're onto something there. It's just we haven't figured out what that something is yet. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:36:16] That's right. He says — if I were to shift to more craft-related work, I would work longer hours at set times. I would have less time to myself. I'd work in a physical location, so I would not be location independent. I'd probably take a huge pay cut. I've learned skills that lead to business opportunities, most likely with higher startup costs. And I would be in a field that is possibly at risk due to automation or COVID-19. This line of categorical thinking inspired by Ramit Sethi and Tim Ferris is preventing me from trying it because I look at the stats and the smart, responsible decision, is to stay and just optimize my current opportunity. By many people's standards, this is as good as it gets. So there's no reason to stir the pot but if that were the case, I wouldn't be asking this question. This probably isn't a unique situation. It just seems so silly that something like excitement can potentially trump all of these data-driven factors. The only solution I've come up with is to start doing double duty part-time as a culinary apprentice, without quitting anything, seeing where serendipity takes me and noting how I feel authentically in each role. Are there any other gaps or considerations I should be thinking about? Sincerely, Perplexed About My Purpose.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:19] Gabe, I think you should start with this one. Seeing as how you went from top-notch consulting firm to bottom rung podcast, sidekick, and screenwriter. I mean, imagine, imagine working at a big firm and now you're working with me, a guy who only wears pants like 30 percent of the time. Yikes.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:37:37] Thank you for that setup. I appreciate that.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:38] Mm-hmm, appreciate that. No problem. Go ahead. Take it away.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:37:40] So I'm pretty good about my choices.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:43] Feeling pretty good about your life choices, right? Cry into that protein shake, that Hemp protein shake. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:37:47] How did you know that, that is what I'm drinking, sir? 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:37:50] Why wouldn't you? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:37:50] All right. Well, look, as someone who left a stable and lucrative, sort of lucrative career in consulting to pursue the frankly reckless dream of making movies, as I've just been shamelessly called out for doing, I can totally understand, you know, the appeal of pursuing something that you actually care about. I'm about to get a little cheesy here, but when you're doing a job that doesn't, you know, like light you up inside and you have a dream — in your case, it sounds like that dream might be being a chef — that can be soul-crushing. And it can be depressing just knowing that there's this thing out there that you could be excited about and you're not doing it. And I find it interesting that you said it's so silly. That's something like excitement could potentially trump all of these more data-driven factors — I think is how you put it. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:29] What a left brain thing, right?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:38:30] Totally.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:31] Like, "I don't want to get in the way, I don't want my — like me liking my career to get in the way of me making the right decision."

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:38:35] Exactly. What is this passion?

Jordan Harbinger: [00:38:38] I'm with you though? Like, " Oh, I'll become a lawyer. That's a good idea. Totally, not a fit for my personality, but who cares what I want? Let's talk about what kind of house I'm going to be able to purchase."

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:38:47] Oh, when you put it like that, it's so sad, but I'm glad we're talking about this. I mean, look, I get it. You're being responsible. I admire that. I really do. But why is your excitement silly, dude? Right? Like this is your life. You know, if you're suppressing your excitement before it can even develop before you can even find out where it wants to lead you, then I think you're missing something really important here. It's like you said, if this were really as good as it gets, you would not be asking this question. I think that's very insightful on your part. So that said just because you're excited about something does not mean that it's necessarily your calling. It also doesn't mean that it needs to be your career. You know, Jordan talks about this a lot, how the whole, "Make your passion your job, and you'll never work another day in your life." That whole mentality is actually quite flawed. You don't have to turn the thing that you love doing, like cooking, for example, into your career. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:39:31] It is, however, the best way to ruin a hobby. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:39:33] Yes. That's exactly where I was going with that. In fact, a lot of the time turning your passion into a career is what kills your love for it, frankly, because when you open a restaurant, you're not just making chicken parm and pouring Sangiovese for your friends. You're managing staff. You're controlling inventory. You're doing payroll taxes, you're handling inspections. You're running a business. So the pure joy of playing around in the kitchen, which you love so much in the evenings becomes a very different thing when it becomes your job.

[00:40:00] So I would take some time to really consider whether you want to make your craft-related work more than just a hobby. And I'm not saying you shouldn't do that. I just want you to know that it's not as simple as, "Do what you love and you'll never work another day in your life." Because you will work and it will not always be fun and you got to know that going in. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:40:17] Yeah, I really agree with this. A lot of people are probably thinking, "Yeah, well, Jordan loves his work," and I do. But I do advertising sales. I get duped and ripped off by sponsors. I have mattress sponsors in the past that didn't pay me and they're like, "Yes, sue me. What are you going to do?" And I sued him. So yeah, don't screw with lawyers. Getting bills and deciding how to monetize the show without ruining it, managing people, having people steal from you, having people invoice you and never do the work waking up at four o'clock in the morning and realizing you have to clear your schedule that day, because you forgot to prepare for a three-star general interview, and you don't want to look like a total moron, et cetera.

[00:40:59] If you do want to make the leap to more craft-related work, go ahead. Here are some things I recommend though. First, talk to as many people in that space as you can. Ask them what it's really like the day-to-day. Ask them to tell you their worst days, their biggest headaches, their greatest regrets. Also ask him about the high points too, of course, but get into the downsides. There are always downsides. Ask them about all of it. So you don't idealize the profession from the outside. A lot of people — it'd be easy to say, like chefs, they're just working on food and cooking, dah, dah, dah. Ask them about bad customers, the lunch rush, bad tippers, crappy bosses, getting fired with no notice, and being out of your butt.

[00:41:39] Second play with these ventures in small doses on the side if you can, and see how they go. Host small dinner parties. See if you actually enjoy cooking for lots of people. Do a pop-up restaurant. If you live in a big city, you can probably do this like straight-up illegally. I don't necessarily recommend that, but I've been to popup restaurants where I'm like, there's definitely a guy in this formerly retail storefront who just bought like a couple of — what are those things called, Gabriel, like —?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:42:04] propane tanks.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:05] Yeah, propane tanks, but there's like — it's like a hot plate — 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:42:08] Sure.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:09] And they're just cooking. And there's 10 people allowed at any given time.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:42:12] Like a little George Foreman grill.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:13] Kind of but like — he's cooking, but there's not a commercial kitchen in the back.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:42:17] Right.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:17] This is like a clothing store with no clothes in it because they went out of business. And now that guy's cooking and he's making like designer bespoke ramen, you know, and sushi.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:42:27] Like hipster bulgogi in the back of a former Fred Segal.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:42:31] Yeah, hipster bulgogi in the back of a Fred Segal. That's like still under construction. Right? So — design a few tables in your garage. See if you actually enjoy sitting at a table — saw your table kitchen for two hours at a time. Do it for months, maybe even a year or more. I know it sounds like a long time. It's a great investment and figuring out whether or not you love it or hate it. Find out if your excitement can survive the difficulty, the drudgery of this kind of work. You're going to have a lot more data to work with. I love your idea of doing double duty part-time as a culinary apprentice and seeing how you fill in that role. This will teach you a lot. It will also help you build relationships with people in that world, which is brilliant. It's super smart. Digging the well before you get thirsty. Definitely do this if you haven't already. You may have gone down this path before.

[00:43:19] Last thing, and maybe the most important thing, do not discount your excitement. We were laughing about that earlier and I know I'm biased here, but I think that's a recipe for a very diminished life. That doesn't mean you have to turn every passion into a side hustle, spend every waking minute doing something you're pumped about bro. But excitement is a really important signal. It usually points to something that you actually care about. Something you're good at or could be good at. Something that speaks to you in some mysterious way. And I don't mean this in a metaphysical sense. I mean, this is like a good indicator that you're crossing your capability on the Venn diagram, right? That your capability circles crossing over your excitement, passion circle crossing over your ability to make a living circle. And that's kind of what we're testing here.

[00:44:02] So whether that means you end up building a career around it, or it's just something you do for fun in your spare time. Or who knows? Maybe you're taking that sweet, sweet crypto cash you're making and investing into a restaurant, something like that. However, you end up pursuing it, it could add a lot of joy and meaning into your life. And that means something, yeah, a lot of frustration and heartache too. I guarantee that. But pursuing your passion is horrible and it's amazing, but whatever you do, listen to it. It's trying to tell you something. I love that you want to find out what that is. Just do so in a way, that is scaled and iterative — to use some Silicon Valley blockchain terms — instead of going all in, which is the advice, all of the social media influencers are going to give you.

[00:44:43] That's literally, always a terrible idea. Okay. Your toes in the water and find out if this is going to work for you. And if it doesn't, you can go back to the blockchain. And if it does, yeah, go ahead and take a risk, but don't go all in and then find out in two months that you shouldn't have. That's what we're trying to avoid here.

[00:45:00] This is The Jordan Harbinger Show and this is Feedback Friday. We'll be right back. 

[00:45:05] This episode is sponsored in part by ZipRecruiter. Hiring is challenging, especially with everything else you need to consider today, but there's one place you can go where hiring is simple, fast, and smart. A place where businesses can connect to qualified candidates. And that place is ziprecruiter.com/jordan. ZipRecruiter sends your job to over a hundred of the web's leading job sites and they don't stop there. They've got their powerful matching technology, which scans thousands of resumes to find people with the right experience and actively invites them to apply to your jobs. You don't get a bunch of schleps in there, or you get the qualified people and a bunch of schleps. I don't know. ZipRecruiter makes hiring efficient and effective features like screening questions to filter candidates in an all-in-one dashboard where you can review and rate your candidates. And by the way, that's really important because I've sent jobs out before and people can't follow this simplest of instructions. ZipRecruiter's screening questions would filter those knuckleheads right out. ZipRecruiter is so effective that four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

Jen Harbinger: [00:46:04]  And right now to try ZipRecruiter for free, our listeners can go to ziprecruiter.com/jordan. That's ziprecruiter.com/J-O-R-D-A-N. Ziprecruiter.com/jordan ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire.

[00:46:17] This episode is also sponsored by Blue Moon. This is a beer that I've been drinking for a long time. Blue moon, they're on a mission to celebrate and inspire more of those once in a blue moon moments, just like those looking for a special in the everyday. Blue Moon takes a twist on the traditional Belgian wit. If you don't know what Belgian wit is, I forgive you. Basically, it's one of those beers. That's not totally transparent. It was created during the '95 baseball season at the SandLot Brewery at Coors Field in Denver, Colorado. So these are those kinds of — they're not heavy, but they're also not that super, super light. They go really well with — I don't know, baseball or anything that you would drink you're with, but they're the ones with the fancy orange peel. There's a little subtle sweetness in there and it got some coriander to provide balance. Oats create a smooth creamy finish. One of a kind appearance and a bright taste — I'm talking like a person who knows a lot about beer. I assure you. I really don't. Once in a blue moon should happen more than once in a blue moon. So whenever you reach for a Blue Moon, be reminded of the extraordinary.

Jen Harbinger: [00:47:11] The next time you're out with friends or enjoying a night in reach for a Blue Moon. It's the beer you can enjoy every day. You can have Blue Moon delivered by going to get.bluemoonbeer.com and finding delivery options near you. Blue Moon, reach for the moon. Celebrate responsibly. Blue Moon Brewing Company, Golden Colorado Ale. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:47:29] Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps us going. Who doesn't love some good products and/or services? You can always visit jordanharbinger.com/deals for all the details on everybody that helps support the show. 

[00:47:42] And now for the conclusion of Feedback Friday.

[00:47:47] All right, what's next? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:47:49] Hey Jordan, I'm 40 years old and I'm in a relationship with a girl I knew in university, we reconnected two years ago back when she was going through a divorce and found that the chemistry we had when we were younger was still there. We decided that we would not be serious because I wanted kids and she didn't. She already had two boys ages, 11 and six, but she really wanted to be with me. And after exploring the issue with her friend, she called me to say that she would have my kid. I said, "Yes." A year later we bought a house and we've been living there for a year now. Then during that time, I lost my job. I've applied for 80-plus jobs in 14 months, but haven't had any luck. So our baby planning has been pushed. She's 40 as well and the probability of getting pregnant gets lower with every day that goes by. Now, I'm left wondering how I got here. I'm great with her kids. I treat them as if they were mine. They're nice to be around and I love being a dad, but when I look at them, I don't see me in them. I feel that if I can't have my own kid, I will regret it and resent my lady and the boys. I'm just sad about where I am. We've talked about the options, talked about choosing each other, and even not being together. We're both going to therapy together and independently. What would you do in my situation? Signed, Passing Up, Passing On My Genes.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:48:56] Oh, man, it sucks that this is like an economic consideration. It really does in large part, not completely, but I think you need to get clear on what really matters to you in life and what you really want in this situation. On the one hand, you've found love, which sounds like real love with a woman who has two great kids. Honestly, you guys sound like a really sweet blended family. On the other hand, you want a child of your own, but your window is closing and you're struggling financially. Since you can't have both right now, the partner and the child of your own, you need to decide which one do I really want. And it sucks that you have to make this call. It really does but here we are.

[00:49:37] That said there are some other layers to this that we need to explore. I'm curious to know what it is about having our own child that feels so urgent to you. Believe me, I get it. Having a child of your own, it's powerful. It's primal. We're wired to pass on our genes and love the children that we create. I completely understand that. But so much of the experience that you're craving the love, the connection, the influence, seeing yourself in them. You can have a lot of that with someone else's kids too. And I think you probably realize that you do have it with your partner's kids. 

[00:50:09] I'm not saying it'll be exactly the same because I don't know. I don't know if it's different, but I do wonder — I wonder if you're holding yourself back from relating to these kids, the ones you do have in that way because you're holding out hope for a child who happens to share your genes. I wonder if shifting your perspective here a little bit would open up a new possibility for you. We don't have to be so narrowly driven by our innate programming. Powerful as it is.

[00:50:35] Just look at adoptive parents or foster parents or godparents or close family, friends, they form super close bonds with people they're not related to by blood. And it's just the same in many ways. In many ways, genes are the least meaningful thing about these relationships they really are. And I know that it's easy for me to say.

[00:50:53] The other thing we have to talk about is your financial situation. I'm sorry. You've struggled to find work. I imagine that's really stressful and probably demoralizing for you. It sucks. I know and I agree with you, but here's the thing — you really do and you know this already, you have to get this part of your life sorted out before you have a child. At least if you want to do it responsibly, which I think you do. And yes, your partner's age is one obstacle to having your own child, but it's a really professional situation that pushed the baby planning here. Before, Gabe, I'm going to toss this to you but I do think you could wait a bit, and then you could get a surrogate, you know, in a couple of years. Also having babies over 40, not unheard of. Yes, it's late, not impossible. You could also freeze some of your sperm and you could work on this later on. It depends on what your is up for. It's not impossible. You could find a job in a month. You could find a job next week. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:51:44] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:51:45] I know you've tried, so I don't want to be sort of cheap in that, but all hope is not lost here. Gabe, what else is important?

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:51:51] Well, what really stood out to me about this letter is when he talks about possibly resenting his partner if this doesn't go his way. You know, when you talk about resenting your partner, I wonder if what you're really feeling is resentment toward yourself. And I'm not trying to blame you here. Let me be clear about that. But what I am saying is that it's very easy to get mad at the other people in a situation, in this case, your partner and her children who have nothing to do with your financial decisions as far as I can tell. It's easy to get mad at some other people when it's really you, who's responsible for taking care of yourself.

[00:52:19] And that's something that would be very productive to talk about in therapy if you aren't already doing that. I'm glad you guys have people guiding you in that department. I would investigate those feelings because I wouldn't be surprised if they were playing a role in how you are feeling about this entire problem that you find yourself in. And I would find out what's really going on there, you know, who are those feelings really directed at and what do you need to do to take ownership in order to right the ship, so to speak.

[00:52:42] Basically, you need to get your career back on track. Yes. That is a tactical practical thing that you need to work on. I would be remiss if I didn't tell you that relationships are going to be your number one asset here. I'm going to sound like Jordan right now, but I'm just going for it. If you aren't investing in your relationships, if you aren't doing the Six-Minute Networking, if you aren't really taking that part of finding a job seriously, if you're not learning how to connect with people, I urge you to get on that. I would be willing to bet that the struggles to find a job are largely due to a gap in the networking because if you've applied for 80+plus jobs in over a year and you haven't gotten anything, I do wonder if that piece just hasn't fallen into place yet.

[00:53:18] And one last general thought, it's interesting that you said, "I'm left wondering how I got here. I'm just sad about where I am." Jordan, did you notice those phrases when we were reading the letter? That stood out to me. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:53:27] Yeah, I did. Yeah. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:53:29] I get the sense that he maybe feels like life is something that is happening to him rather than something that he is creating or helping to create. When in reality, you know, he got together with his partner, he bought the house, he moved in with her. He's controlling the job search. I can definitely appreciate it. That he feels frustrated and hopeless. I really do but if you're going to turn the ship around, you're going to have to make a mental shift here and step up and you might not be in the place that you imagined, but you're in the place that consciously or unconsciously you chose it, right? So at least you're in a place that you're now agreeing to be stuck in. And I know that's a little bit of tough love on my part, but I hope, you know, it's coming from a good place. If a child of your own is really what you want, then get the job stuff in order to do the work on yourself and with your partner and start creating the circumstances you need to be able to really take care of that child. Or decide that you've gotten another set of gifts here in life as Jordan was pointing out a great partner, two awesome kids and that they're all the family that you really need.

Jordan Harbinger: [00:54:22] All right, last but not least. Bring us home. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:54:24] Hey Jordan, Jen, and Gabe, the company I work for has partnered with a professional coaching company to provide personal and professional training for 12 top performers in the organization for the next six months. I've been lucky enough and worked hard enough to be the recipient of one of these limited spots. The coaching is individualized and focused on personal and professional development, as well as specific topics such as sleep, nutrition, navigating uncertainty, and communication. I've heard you encourage people to hire coaches to work on skills. My questions to you are: what advice would you have to maximize my time and get the most out of the program? I only have access to these coaches for the next five and a half months. So it's important to me that I utilize this time wisely. And can you share strategies for how you've used coaching to make effective improvement in your life? Signed, Put Me in Coach. 

Jordan Harbinger: [00:55:10] First of all, congratulations on getting one of those coveted spots. You sound like a rock star and you deserve it so well done. I also love that you're going into this amazing opportunity with a clear intention. And I don't mean that in this sort of woo-woo, like the metaphysical way, in my experience, coaching is as much about what you bring to it as what the coach gives you. Sometimes even more about what you bring into it actually. I have coaches for everything. I've got Chinese teachers that I talked to probably four or five days a week. I've got a voice coach that makes sure I don't wear myself out. I used to have podcasting, broadcasting coaches to make sure my production was on point. I get trainers when I do exercise.

[00:55:50] There's just no point in trying to learn something on my own most of the time unless I'm just messing around and I have no intention of getting good at that skill. Physical skills especially, this is the case because the knowledge is there a hundred percent of the time humans have been around a while. The cost of coaching is always, or almost always low. And the cost of forming bad habits or getting injured if you're doing a physical skill is high. The cost of losing time is also high for most people. And if you're the type of person who only wants to learn on their own, I would advise you to start with a coach to get the fundamentals, and then mock around on your own for a few weeks. Then go back to coaching because you realize it's going to be faster to learn with a coach or a trainer.

[00:56:30] Personally, I just keep my coaches around and I just decrease frequency as I get better at certain skills and I need the coach less and less. I actually as I get better at skills and I don't want to have the sessions as frequently, I keep the coach around and I have the coach examine my work product to make sure that I'm still on track in applying the skills that they've taught. So as to let's say, I do the voice lessons less and less, or I can't make it one time. I'll be like, "Listen to this — okay, I can't make it today. Listen to this episode of the show and make sure that the things you are teaching me are showing up in the podcast." And they'll listen and they'll take notes and we go over it in the next session.

[00:57:07] So that's a few recommendations here, a few more. First to your question about how to maximize your time and get the most out of the program. Spend some time reflecting on what kind of person and manager you want to be. Talk about this with a few friends, colleagues, family members, mentors. Be aspirational and ambitious here, and also be specific and realistic. These will be your goals in the program and you can share them with your coach when you first meet. A good coach will probably also ask for them in your first session, but you can supercharge your coaching by having them ready when you first meet, even sending them in advance. And in general, that kind of proactivity will 10X your returns throughout the whole experience.

[00:57:48] Another piece of advice that I can offer, make sure you respect and vibe with the coach that you're working with. That doesn't mean you got to love them and that every moment is going to be super fun. A good coach is going to push you. They're going to challenge you. They might even make you angry sometimes just like any good personal trainer or therapist, they're going to challenge you. But if you don't respect their ideas or their approach and think there are yahtz. And if you don't have some kind of baseline chemistry with them, you don't feel like they really get you, it's perfectly okay to ask for a different coach. And if they resist that for some reason, kick them to the curb because everybody has that.

[00:58:22] Just like there's a sponsor. We have Better Help, better help.com/jordan. They even say — and I've asked them about this — if you don't click with your therapist, no problem. Switch to a new one at no charge. That should be every coaching and every therapist ever, because — look, I'm not sure if your program allows that, but keep it in mind. You're the client here. Even if your company is paying you are the client and definitely follow that advice if you end up hiring a coach of your own down the road. You don't have to work with somebody that you're not clicking with. It doesn't make any sense.

[00:58:53] Gabe, would you recommend she do here? 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [00:58:55] Great advice. To that I would only add, you know, when you work with a coach one-on-one and you have like these sessions, let's say they're once a week, you can kind of rev it up to like 60, 80, 100, right? And then between that, and the next session, it can kind of fall off — like you forget what you talked about or you sort of like lose the momentum of the session. So I think it could be helpful to process everything that you're learning along the way. I recommend keeping maybe a journal. After every coaching session, you can write down the best insights, the moments, breakthroughs, challenges, whatever it is. And then throughout the week, keep writing down a few thoughts about how the coaching is playing out in your job and in your life. That'll help you stay connected to the work between your sessions. It'll also give you additional material to bring into your next session. So you can say, "You know, I had a really interesting argument with my programmer this week. Here's what I think the problem is." And you and your coach can diagnose that together. You might forget some of the details. If you don't take the time to write it down. That journal will also be a great record for you of what you're learning and how you're applying it. So if you stick with coaching after this, or if you find a coach of your own, once the program is over, then you can build on that journal with the next one.

[00:59:56] Another thing I would add. And I'm sure Jordan can chime in here because you've worked with all these coaches where this is very important. I would definitely make a conscious effort to take risks and to be vulnerable with this coach. It's very tempting to want to look good or to look capable with a career coach because you want to come across as awesome or a super — 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:00:14] Especially when your boss pays them, your company pays them like, "Oh, they're going to report back and say how great I am." 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [01:00:19] Good point. If this program is worth its salt in any way, they will not do that. They should not do that, but I understand the temptation. Resist that urge. The more you can open up about your weaknesses, your fears, your points of confusion, the more you're going to get out of the coaching. You're not there to look good, you're there to get good. I tell myself that all the time when I'm in a class, I'm not there to look good. I'm there to get good. And if opening up about that stuff with the coach is hard for you. Then say that I encourage you to say that even being open and about how hard it is in the first place is really powerful. A good coach will know how to help you dig into that.

[01:00:52] As for taking risks, that just means, you know, sharing uncomfortable information, like for example, your insecurities as a manager, managing certain kinds of people or your struggles with nutrition — because I know you mentioned that this is about all these different areas of your life. Trying out new approaches, trying out new techniques, even if they seem kind of weird, even if they make you look weak or silly doing exercises, that sort of thing, go for it. Like Jordan said, good coaches will stretch you beyond your current limits. So you have to be willing to step outside of your comfort zone to really grow. 

[01:01:20] I would also ask a ton of questions and listen to the answers. There's a lot of value in talking to your coach, for sure but make sure you don't spend too much of your session venting or processing excessively. There's definitely a place for that, but you really want to share just enough for you and your coach to have something to work on in the session, not to just make it like a session where you get to talk shit about all your colleagues and how frustrating everything is. I don't think you're that kind of person. I'm just saying the temptation can be there. And as you listen, really take in what your coach is saying, not just in your head, but emotionally, if you want to explore something, ask some follow-up questions. If you don't understand something, speak up, clarify it, but whatever you do, soak up what they are saying. That's going to be the greatest gift of this program. Yeah, those sessions are about you but hopefully, you're also learning from somebody who's great. 

[01:02:03] I love this. I love her attitude. I love the way she's going into these sessions. I think she's going to get a lot out of it. 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:08] I hope you all enjoyed that. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week. We do have a recommendation. Gabe, you told me to watch My Octopus Teacher and I was a little skeptical.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [01:02:15] Oh, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:15] Because it seemed, it sounded dumb, honestly.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [01:02:19] Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:20] How do we explain this? It's not quite a documentary. It's a guy who follows an octopus for a year underwater.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [01:02:25] Yes, and I would urge you not to say anything more because it's so good.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:28] it is.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [01:02:28] I don't want to ruin anything. It is a documentary.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:30] It is.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [01:02:31] But it's a very, it's an unusual documentary.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:32] It's a guy who goes free diving or snorkeling, I guess you would say. It's not as dumb as it sounds. There's no not dumb way to explain this. 

Gabriel Mizrahi: [01:02:39] Wasn't it great though? 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:40] It was, it was great.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [01:02:41] It was one of the best things I've seen in a long time. I think we probably don't want to say anything more because it's so unusual and it's so — 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:47] Right.

Gabriel Mizrahi: [01:02:48] I don't know, man. It's so touching and it's so surprising that I just want you to have that pure experience, you guys, but get out of this. Go on Netflix. Watch My Octopus Teacher. It is fantastic. 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:02:57] Well, good back. Watch My Octopus Teacher and go back and check out the guests this week if you haven't yet.

[01:03:03] And if you want to know how we get all these guests, it's always about the network. People making those good old warm intros. Dig the well before you get thirsty. That's what — well, that's what somebody else always says and now that I always say. I stole that from somebody in my network. Go check out the Six-Minute Networking course, which is free. It's on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com/course. Dig the well before you get thirsty, the drills take a few minutes a day. The course is free, jordanharbinger.com/course. A link to the show notes for this episode, that's at jordanharbinger.com. The transcripts are in there. There's a video of this Feedback Friday episode on our YouTube channel at jordanharbinger.com/youtube. I'm at @JordanHarbinger on Twitter, Instagram. You can add me on LinkedIn. It's where a lot of those responsible folks are, and you can find Gabe on Twitter at @GabeMizrahi or on Instagram at @GabrielMizrahi. Apparently, you just got fancier as you iterated from one network to the next, also on LinkedIn, of course.

[01:03:58] This show is created in association with PodcastOne. My amazing team includes Jen harbinger, Jase Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, of course, Gabe Mizrahi or Gabriel Mizrahi depending on where you're adding him these days. Send those questions to friday@jordanharbinger.com. Our advice and opinions and those of our guests are their own. I'm a lawyer. I am not your lawyer. So do you — I'm not even a good lawyer. I never was. So do your own research before anything you hear on this show. And remember, we rise by lifting others, share the show with those you love. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with someone else who can use the advice that we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show, so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

[01:04:47] I keep thinking about which are my favorite episodes. Here's a quick preview of an episode I did a while back with neuroscientist, Beau Lotto. Beau explains how our brains make sense of the information given to it by our eyes, how sight and vision works, and what it means to construct reality. It's a bit of a trip. And this episode really gets you thinking about the nature of our brains and the world that we live in. Here's a bite.

Beau Lotto: [01:05:10] There is a world out there that we don't see it as it is. So this isn't philosophy, this is just laws of physics. So if a tree falls in the woods, no one's there to hear it. Does it make a sound? No. It creates energy, but the sound is a construct of your brain. So the tree exists, the energy exists, but your brain then turns that into something useful, which is sound. Light, all the light that's coming around us, right? It's bouncing off objects and then it's changing when it hits an object and then it comes to our eyes. Right? But our retina has no access to the light directly, nor to the surfaces. All it literally has access to is energy. And that's where your brain is actually constructing a meaning. And it's that meaning that you're seeing, you're not seeing the energy, you're detecting the energy, but you're not seeing it. Language is not a construct of the world. Think about perceptions of pain. Is pain an illusion? Of course, it's not an illusion. It's a meaningful perception, but it's not something that exists in the world. There aren't painful things in the world.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:06:09] Yeah.

Beau Lotto: [01:06:09] If we weren't here, pain would not exist. We can't hear the five sounds of A that people in Scandinavia use for instance.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:06:17] Right, right. 

Beau Lotto: [01:06:18] We can't see certain shades of red that Russians can see.

Jordan Harbinger: [01:06:21] Really?

Beau Lotto: [01:06:22] Yeah. And it's only when you have awareness of why you're doing what you're doing that creates the possibility of doing it differently. Now, of course, if you don't have eyes, you can't choose to see. You still have to function in a world that has gravity, right? That has light. But we have more freedom than we think we do. We have more agency than we think we do. So the world is always changing and complexifying and we need to complexify with it. And we never could, if it always just sees it as it really is. 

Jordan Harbinger: [01:06:54] For more about how our brains produce vision and the constructs our brain makes to build our world, check out episode 177 with Beau Lotto here on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

Male Narrator: [01:07:04] Imagine being wrongfully convicted for a crime you didn't commit.

Male: [01:07:07] And I thought it was kind of crazy because, you know, I knew I was innocent. 

Male Narrator: [01:07:10] Or that a wanted killer is still on the loose.

Female: [01:07:13] In September when you went to the Walmart and acquired the knife and the zip ties. Remember the zip ties? 

Male Narrator: [01:07:19] Don't miss Court Junkie with Jillian Jalali.

Jillian Jalali: [01:07:21] You said he never filed a complaint about Dominguez, but did you consider shooting him?

Male Narrator: [01:07:26] Join Jillian as she shed light on the injustices of our judicial system. 

Jillian Jalali: [01:07:29] He said he had no idea what was going to happen to him next.

Male: [01:07:33] I was told that I wasn't going to be arrested. And he said, "Oh, you are being charged with the crime.

Jillian Jalali: [01:07:38] The community held vigils and prayed for Jayme.

Male Narrator: [01:07:41] From court documents to first-hand accounts from those closest to the case. Jillian Jalali will take you there.

Jillian Jalali:  [01:07:46] We all have the same goal in mind, and that is to bring Jayme home.

Female Operator: [01:07:49] You're calling Wisconsin County 911.

Female Caller: [01:07:51] I have a young lady at my house right now and she says her name is Jayme Closs.

Jillian Jalali: [01:07:55] Had Jayme finally been found?

Male Narrator: [01:07:57] Subscribe to Court Junkie on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any of your favorite podcast apps.